Conversations with Big Rich

Trail Boss, Jacquelyne Bebe White, on Hummers and Land Use

January 07, 2021 Guest Bebe White Season 1 Episode 40
Conversations with Big Rich
Trail Boss, Jacquelyne Bebe White, on Hummers and Land Use
Chapters
Conversations with Big Rich
Trail Boss, Jacquelyne Bebe White, on Hummers and Land Use
Jan 07, 2021 Season 1 Episode 40
Guest Bebe White

Trail Boss Jacquelyne “Bebe” White takes us through running Hummers on the trail. Together with land use and our need to pay attention, Bebe shares her history as our first land use guest on the podcast. She brings a wealth of experience to the trail and to the Calls-to-Action we need to keep our trails open. 

3:08 – the first Hummer purchase

4:36 – “oh, no, Miss Hummer”

6:27 – learning from Cranky Steve

10:28 – the brand gets involved with the Rubicon and me

18:06 – the H3 build and the options behind it

26:25 – on my way to being Trail Boss

33:16 –the rescue mission

42:27 – the importance of land use 

46:49 –be part of the balance

53:52 –no trails, no sales

1:01:09 –repeal the Equal Access to Justice Act

We want to thank our sponsors Maxxis Tires and 4Low Magazine.

www.maxxis.com

www.4lowmagazine.com 

Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/BigRich)

Show Notes Transcript

Trail Boss Jacquelyne “Bebe” White takes us through running Hummers on the trail. Together with land use and our need to pay attention, Bebe shares her history as our first land use guest on the podcast. She brings a wealth of experience to the trail and to the Calls-to-Action we need to keep our trails open. 

3:08 – the first Hummer purchase

4:36 – “oh, no, Miss Hummer”

6:27 – learning from Cranky Steve

10:28 – the brand gets involved with the Rubicon and me

18:06 – the H3 build and the options behind it

26:25 – on my way to being Trail Boss

33:16 –the rescue mission

42:27 – the importance of land use 

46:49 –be part of the balance

53:52 –no trails, no sales

1:01:09 –repeal the Equal Access to Justice Act

We want to thank our sponsors Maxxis Tires and 4Low Magazine.

www.maxxis.com

www.4lowmagazine.com 

Be sure to listen on your favorite podcast app.

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/BigRich)


[00:00:01.080] 

Welcome to the Big Rich show, this podcast will focus on conversations with friends and acquaintances within the four wheel drive industry. Many of the people that I will be interviewing, you may know the name, you may know some of the history, but let's get in depth with these people and find out what truly makes them a four wheel drive enthusiast. So now's the time to sit back, grab a cold one and enjoy our conversation.

 


[00:00:29.490] 

Whether you're crawling the Red Rocks of MOAB or hauling your toys to the trail Maxxis has the tires you can trust your performance and durability.Four wheels or two, Maxxis tires is the choice of champions, because they know that whether for work or play, for fun or competition, Maxxis tires delivers. Choose Maxxis, tread victoriously.

 


[00:00:56.040] 

Why should you read 4Low magazine? Because 4Low magazine is about your lifestyle, the Four-Wheel Drive adventure lifestyle that we all enjoy, rock crawling, trail riding, event coverage, vehicle builds and do it yourself tech all in a beautifully presented package. You won't find 4Low on a newsstand rack.So subscribe today and have it delivered to you.

 


[00:01:20.450] - Big Rich Klein

OK, on today's episode of Conversations with Big Rich, we have Jacquelyne Bebe White. Bebe is best known for her work on the Rubicon Trail. At least that's where I know her the most from and as trail boss with the Friends of the Rubicon. But we're going to discuss with Bebe about her life in Off Road, where she got her beginnings, just like we do with everyone. And we're going to find out more about land use and Bebe is our first guest as a land use representative.

 


[00:01:54.320] 

So, Bebe, thank you very much for coming on with us. And how are you doing today?

 


[00:01:59.630] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

I'm doing well.Thanks for having me on.

 


[00:02:03.890] - Big Rich Klein

Excellent. Let's let's just jump right in. Tell us where you grew up. Let's get started at the early age.

 


[00:02:10.730] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

Early age. I grew up on the central coast of California in a little town called Watsonville, and my father had an automotive shop and he also built sprint cars and Super Modifieds for the local track.

 


[00:02:27.800] 

And a lot of that expanded into, you know, a Central Coast series and whatnot. And so I kind of grew up around race cars. My entire life was around race cars, and it was a lot of fun. And from there, I moved out of the area, ended up eventually, if you want to fast forward 30 years, I ended up in Rocklin, California, and was basically looking around to replace my 80 series Land Cruiser because it was 10 years old and it was starting to have issues.

 


[00:03:08.270] 

And I wound up at a Hummer dealership after I had tried just about every other Toyota, Nissan, I test, drove everything, Land Rover, all of it, and ended up at the Hummer dealership and fell in love with the H3. So I put in my order and when it was time to come and pick it up, I sat in there with the dealership representative and they were showing me all the buttons and everything. And I just thought, oh my gosh, I need to figure out how to use these.

 


[00:03:44.840] 

So I went home and had never even been involved in forums or didn't even know they existed. And so I Google searched Four-Wheel Drive training and found the esprit de four club in Hollister who was setting up their four wheel drive training for September. So I was like, OK, great, I'll go to that. And in the meantime, I found forums. I found very little information about the H3. So the one forum, the first forum that I found was one called El Cova, went on to that forum and got harassed a lot by the H2 people.

 


[00:04:26.780] 

And I finally kind of learned how forums worked and what the lingo was and who trolls were and all those fun things.

 


[00:04:36.050] 

And when I got to go to my first four wheel drive training, it just so happened there was another H3 owner there and he became my best Wheelin Bud and my first wheelin' bud. And so we ended up going to Hollister Hills once a month just to learn and learn and learn. And at the first esprit de four course, I was going up, they were taking me up Bishop Gulch and it looked really scary because there were it was a huge crevasse with with giant mounds in it.

 


[00:05:10.460] 

And I was watching the people in front of me and he was setting people up so that their whole front end would just be off the ground. And I was really kind of scared until I got up there and he did it with me. And I had the most incredible adrenaline rush. I just said, OK, I got to do this again. And I went around to the back of the line to go through the gulch again. And he said, No, no, Miss Hummer, you can't only one one turn per vehicle.

 


[00:05:39.740] 

And I said, no, I have to do it again. And so we did it again. And once at that point, I was hooked. So we were there every month and we started collecting H3 people and H2 people every time we would go via the forums. And then we decided to try our hand at Moab. So we all ran out to Moab and had the most incredible time. Our H3s were totally stock.

 


[00:06:07.640] 

I think I had already put thirty five inch mudders on mine and it was just a blast. And so then we started going out two or three times a year for like the next. Well now fifteen years.

 


[00:06:20.570] - Big Rich Klein

So did did you tell me what year that was when you got when you got the Hummer 2005. 2005?

 


[00:06:27.180] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

Yeah. Also on the El Cova forum. This guy came on who was from Pirate four by four, who was, you know, supposedly the biggest, baddest, meanest place to go if you were a four wheel drive person and his name was Cranky Steve and Cranky Steve is Steve Hirsch from Placerville.

 


[00:06:48.150] 

And he kind of took me under his wing because I was out there doing so much with my H3 and I was local. So he invited me out to Prairie City. And from there we got to know each other really well. And he took me through some of the courses and they had a lot of laughs at my expense in my H3, because I got stuck on the little Rubicon run and things like that was it was absolutely a blast.

 


[00:07:13.500] 

And so I started getting to know local people. And at that point he told me all about the Rubicon and said, you have to become someone who is you know, he he taught me about land use and about everything that was going on. And so I actually signed up in pirate in I think June of, or July 2006 and basically watched a lot because there were some really mean people on that board and I was just kind of scared. But I pretty much hung out in the Rubicon section and Steve was very instrumental in my beginnings in land use.

 


[00:07:57.570] 

He he taught me a lot about pack it in, pack it out, leave no trace, all of those things that were really important if you were going to be a responsible wheeler. So after I learned a lot about that, I decided, well, I've done five or six trips to Moab, I've done the slick rock trail, I've done Deer Valley. I've done a bunch of other local trails except for the Rubicon and Fordyce. So I asked the guys at Rock and Roll four by four who was the local club that I had gotten to know if they would take us out.

 


[00:08:31.770] 

They hemmed and hawed a little bit, but then they finally said, yeah, sure, we'll take you out. So we were initially planning on going the Rubicon for the first time. I want to say it was July 2006. It was myself and probably three other H 3s who did just a test run. So we went from loon to the loop to Wentworth and then from Wentworth to Spider and then out Loon. And it took us three days and but it was wonderful.

 


[00:09:03.510] 

It was a great trip. And so on that trip, we were leaving Winter Camp on Sunday morning and I don't know how it happened, but all three of us got stuck at the same time on the Little Rock Garden leading up from winter camp to to Soup Bowl. That's when I met Merlin and Harvey. Merlin came up to me and asked me how much I would sell my H3 for at that very moment because we were all stuck. Nobody was going anywhere.

 


[00:09:37.380] 

We were trying to get one truck unstuck so that we could get the other two, you know, moving again. So anyway, that's how I met my first real Rubicon People were was on that very first trip. We went probably three other times that year. And the the Hummer groups got bigger as we were going.

 


[00:09:59.040] 

And this time I think our last time we had probably four H3s and four H2s and we went all the way through the first time. I was really fortunate. I didn't break anything. I only got one scratch, but it was so much fun. And we met our first jerks on the trail and, you know, we picked up litter because Cranky Steve told me I had to. And so he made me take a bag so that I could pick up litter.

 


[00:10:28.950] 

And it was just it was just a great time. And so as I got more involved with the Rubicon, Hummer decided to get involved with the Rubicon. And so that year, I want to say it was early 2007, Hummer donated fifteen thousand dollars to the Rubicon and asked me to meet them on the on the Tahoe side and take in their media group who had picked up some H3s from Winkel Hummer. And while they were working on the trail, they wanted Suey and I to take the Hummer people, the Hummer marketing people to observation point and back.

 


[00:11:10.560] 

So we did that. We were successful. And from there, my relationship with Hummer just really started picking up. So when I went out to Moab, I broke a front differential and they were fabulous about getting it fixed for me, no questions asked. And from then on, every time I went somewhere

 


[00:11:31.100] 

. I would break something and I would come back to the dealership, no questions asked. They totally took care of me and I think it just ended up being one of those relationships where I was their market.

 


[00:11:46.590] 

I was 40 plus I was a soccer mom. I had kids. I used the truck for everything, including Wheeling. And it ended up the final year that Hummer was still in business. Before they killed it, they played we would make videos of our trips to Moab, in the Rubicon, in those kinds of things. And they took all of our videos and made a huge compilation and played it at the Detroit Auto Show that year in 2009.

 


[00:12:18.120] 

So it was really an honor. And, you know, Hummer is always treated me well. And I frankly, I love them. I have always loved my truck. We've done a pretty an extensive build on that vehicle. And at this point, now I own like five hummers,

 


[00:12:38.990] - Big Rich Klein

yeah, I would guess that you like Hummers then. I know I always kid you about, you know, driving a Blazer and then correct me and say Yukon, that's it's all good.

 


[00:12:51.860] 

So we got to the Hummer, the Hummers. Let's let's go back a little bit to your years growing up in Watsonville, when you left Watsonville, about how old were you? Were you just out of high school or.

 


[00:13:04.790] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

I was twenty six, I think. And what I had done was decided to leave town and moved to Salt Lake City for a job.

 


[00:13:16.520] 

And from there I moved back to Watsonville briefly until I got another job and then ended up living in Boise, Idaho. And from Boise, I moved to Moscow, Idaho, and Moscow to Spokane, Spokane to Kent, Kent, to Puyallup, Puyallup to Santa Rosa and then back to the Bay Area.

 


[00:13:41.330] 

And so I had been in the Bay Area and this was all for one job. I was a an account coordinator for Lancôme Cosmetics, the Bon Marché and Nordstrom's. And so wheeling and camping were no part of my life zero until I bought my Hummer. They I didn't even know what it was.

 


[00:14:02.570] - Big Rich Klein

So you went from the high maintenance in the mirror life to the high maintenance on the trail life.

 


[00:14:09.940] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

I don't know about high maintenance, but I certainly do my share of glamping on the trail, that's for sure.

 


[00:14:16.760] - Big Rich Klein

So those those years up until 26, what did you do in Watsonville? I mean, did you go to college? Did you you know what? Your educational background just,

 


[00:14:25.460] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

you know, basically finished high school, did some college, went to UCSB for a little bit, came back from there with my first husband. We were very much into Volkswagens and restoring and going to shows and flipping Volkswagens. So we did that a lot for probably seven years. So we were pretty well known in the Volkswagen industry. I actually was the first president and created the Central Coast Volkswagen Association. I can't even remember what year that was, but I want to say 1981, 1982.

 


[00:15:02.240] 

And we did that for a number of years. I want to say till 87.

 


[00:15:06.540] - Big Rich Klein

Wait a second. I thought we said the other day that you graduated high school about that time.

 


[00:15:11.930] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

Eighty No. Eighty one 81. Okay.

 


[00:15:14.060] 

Yeah, no, I'm much I'm a little older and so we did that and then we got divorced and. You know, I just moved on from there, just started life over again, you know, it seems like and it was good times. Excellent.

 


[00:15:36.870] - Big Rich Klein

So from Lancôme, I hopefully I saw that. Right. You did OK. I don't say cosmetics, even the word cosmetics very often. But what did where did you what did you start doing then from there?

 


[00:15:49.350] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

And after I left Lancôme, I went to work at a property management company and quickly moved up the ranks to end up with one of their premier properties in San Mateo. And so I did that job for gosh, I want to say until 2002, which is when I moved to Rocklin, because basically, as much as I like the Bay Area, I just wasn't I wasn't pleased my girls were getting ready to start or start high school. And it was important to me to get to somewhere besides the Bay Area.

 


[00:16:27.330] 

So one time my husband and I were going to Tahoe for the weekend. And as we came back, we saw all these new home signs, you know, so we decided to stop and look at a few homes and we ended up buying a in Rocklin. And I absolutely loved it. It was a great life. It was a great life.

 


[00:16:45.720] - Big Rich Klein

Excellent. So then you get into the Hummer years, you said 2003 started in 2003.

 


[00:16:52.410] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

So I bought my Hummer in Sacramento. All right. Yeah, yeah.

 


[00:16:56.580] - Big Rich Klein

And before that, I believe you had a Toyota series 80 Land Cruiser.

 


[00:17:01.440] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

Yeah, it was one of the ones that it was my soccer mobile. It was ones where I could throw all the soccer balls and all the kids and everything in it and go off to soccer games. And it was a great vehicle. I really liked it. I never wheeled it. It was a total mall crawler. I think that was one of the things that MustardDog said to me when I first started building or thinking about building, doing a build on my Hummer.

 


[00:17:25.680] 

One of the first things he said was, why don't you build your 80 series? It's like because it just didn't dawn on me to build an 80 series. I didn't know anything about Wheeling. I just know I wanted to go more places in my H3 and it was a lot more comfortable. You know, it was super plush seats and, you know, that kind of thing, where as the Land Cruiser was nice, but it was old and I wanted something new.

 


[00:17:52.460] - Big Rich Klein

Got it. Let's talk about your H3 and the the build that you did on it that you guys have done on it, where it's gone since being a stock rig, the stock comfortable rig to now what.

 


[00:18:06.500] 

So I started getting more involved with a Rubicon and was doing Incident Commander Jobs there. But I just wasn't comfortable getting my truck in much past Wentworth Springs. And the bowl was not my favorite. So I decided I needed to in order to be more effective in being on the Rubicon and going in further and not hitching rides all the time that I needed to build my truck so that I could make it in easily. I started talking to so many people and I'll never forget.

 


[00:18:40.850] 

I finally kind of in my mind, after doing a lot of research, I had two options.

 


[00:18:47.510] 

And one option was to build a long-travel IFS that's a little bit beefier. No one was doing it. And then all of a sudden Shannon Campbell did it. And I'm like, all see, I know it can be done. So I didn't want a $40,000 dollar front end, so I had to try and figure out how to do it with parts that I could buy at Napa as I did more and more research. I also looked at the twin traction beam system.

 


[00:19:18.080] 

And so I drew up two options. One was a TTB option and the other was an IFS option, using the H2 925 American Axle, 9-2-5. Differential, which with H2 shafts and custom uppers and lowers, we were still I was still just trying to figure out what I was going to do with the knuckles. I decided I was just going to keep the stock knuckles. Then I figured out how I could do it with a TTB having to use all Ford front parts.

 


[00:19:58.290] 

So I would have to go to Ford  knuckles Ford, you know, Ford everything. And that was creating a problem because then it wouldn't my wheels wouldn't match for the rear because I'd have to go to 8 lug in the front and I'd have six lug in the back. So now I was going to have to change my six lug rear axle. And so I just drew up two very crude, rudimentary drawings. And sent them to Bill Evista. And he came back to me and said, what are you trying to do?

 


[00:20:28.360] 

And I said, I'm trying to create a bulletproof IFS for the Rubicon.

 


[00:20:35.830] 

And he said, well, either one of those will work. He goes, what do you want to do? And he started talking way over my head. And I realized at that point that I had not done anywhere near enough research.

 


[00:20:50.110] 

So I thanked him and I went back in and I started doing more research. Well, once I got all of my parts together that I thought would work, then I had to find someone to build it because I hadn't met Rick yet. So it got shelved because there was I just didn't know anyone who could build it for me.

 


[00:21:09.730] 

Then when I did meet Rick and started talking to him about it, he kind of like just thought I was maybe a little crazy for wanting to go that far. And but then he, you know, he kind of, as I explained it more and we started noodling it and figuring out what, you know, what parts we could use. He decided it was probably maybe an idea. And then I met Jeff at MFS and we met up on the Rubicon and we got to know each other and we liked each other.

 


[00:21:44.080] 

And we have fun together. And we partied and we did all those things. And then I finally approached him with my idea and he said, Are you fucking kidding me? It's like, nope, not kidding. So it took him about six months of me working on him for him to finally say, all right, we'll try it.

 


[00:22:05.020] 

So he decided to take it on and it took us. Probably about five months to build on weekends, and we spent every weekend at the MFS shop building it, the thread that was on Pirate, the build thread that I did on Pirate was very active and we posted lots of pictures and did it lots of ways. We started by building a drop basket because the truck definitely needed to be lifted. And then we started by taking a Dodge 44, cutting off the axle tubes, adding some Dutchmen retainers, and then built Stub shafts for it.

 


[00:22:42.110] 

And Dean built the stub shafts for me. And then we figured we would use the H2 or what whatever they call the one ton half shafts, the GM one ton half shafts. And they just happened to fit through the knuckles, the stock knuckles. So we got super lucky. Then we did. We built tubular uppers, very reinforced, tubular lowers, very reinforced and just basically had to figure out the spring rate, got everything lined up and what we ended up doing was building, building it with almost identical GM geometry and then just making it a little longer.

 


[00:23:23.780] 

It would have more travel. We ended up with 11 inches of travel, but that's my limited travel. We have straps on it and probably could go 12 to 13, but we're leaving it at 11. It is solid. It is. I just I broke one half shaft in the 15 years that I've owned it. And I earned that one because I was in a little bit of a rush had it turned hard driver and I was trying to climb something really steep and it just popped.

 


[00:23:56.210] 

And it but luckily, because we're using the H2 or the GM Bolt on version of the half shafts, they're easy to change. We, you know, very easy to change. And they're a hundred dollar part. So I, I was really happy with that. And so we started that on 38 was the first build and now we've gone to 40s. My motor, my my little anemic three point five liter Vortec finally gave up at about 40000 miles, didn't really give up but just got I was just losing compression in one an five.

 


[00:24:35.480] 

And so we ended up putting in a six liter and I think we were the second or third H3 owner to to drop a six liter in there. And we picked that up from Kevin at PackFab. And he you know, we just we dropped it in there. It took a while. There was a lot of wiring issues to work through. There were computer issues to work through. There were transmission issues to work through, getting everything to talk to each other.

 


[00:25:05.180] 

And once we got that done is when we did the 40s and then we've now upgraded the rear axle to a H2 semi float, fourteen bolt semi float, and that feels so solid. And now the whole truck is basically wider than it's ever been, but. The Akerman angle has been adjusted, now it's perfect on the street, everything has been pushed like the front axle has been pushed forward, the rear axle has been pushed back. It just feels beautiful on the trail.

 


[00:25:40.660] 

It feels amazing in the desert. I'm really, really pleased with this build. I don't see myself doing anything else to it unless I get so sick of the IFS that I rip it out and put a straight axle under it. But we'll see that could that could be a while.

 


[00:25:58.990] - Big Rich Klein

So do you still have the AC and everything working on it?

 


[00:26:02.090] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

Oh yeah. OK, absolute massive heat, you know, heated seats and yeah it's, it's great for everything. Giant sunroof. It's great. I hate sunroofs. I know you do.

 


[00:26:14.110] - Big Rich Klein

So let's talk then about those pirate and the Rubicon and how you got involved with Friends of the Rubicon.

 


[00:26:25.150] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

So Friends of the Rubicon was one of those things that, you know, Steve Hirsch was telling is my duty to be a good Rubiconer so I would started going to work parties and had a great time. And then they asked me to be an incident commander to lead a work party. Well, actually, let me back up.

 


[00:26:45.460] 

I started out as Chow boss because everyone knew I could cook. So as Chow boss, I would get out there and design menus and feed, you know, anywhere from 60 to 100 people who would come out on these work parties. And I was having a great time doing that. And then Dennis Mayor, God rest his soul, was one of the leaders in the Friends of the Rubicon groups. And he asked me to start being an IC, he and Del Albright kind of corralled me and said, hey, why don't you try doing this?

 


[00:27:19.720] 

So I started to lead work parties, and I think I led like 3 one year and 4 the next year, and then Dennis decided that I should be trail boss and Del was definitely wanting to step back, you know, because it's it's a huge job. I mean, you know, you don't really see all of the stuff that goes on behind the scenes. But I can tell you, after Del decided to step back and asked myself and Todd Ockert to be Co-trail boss so it wouldn't overwhelm us the first year we were doing it and the next year I was voted in and then voted in again the following year.

 


[00:28:04.980] 

So my last year as Trail Boss was August of 2010.

 


[00:28:09.930] 

In between that time, I was seriously taken aback with the amount of work that there was. I literally worked from six to ten every night after my day job was done, just organizing and gathering information and and learning. You know, it seemed like we were up against so many issues during that time. We had to clean up an abatement order to deal with. We had a trail alignment projects to deal with. We had OHMVR doing their their geographical study to help identify problem areas on the trail.

 


[00:28:49.350] 

And I think as much as I was involved in all of that, it really wore on me because I was looking at it from the standpoint that. This is all so unnecessary. We know where the problem problem spots are on the trail. We know what the issues are. We don't really need the money or the help or anything. We had it pretty much under control at that time. But other powers that be decided that they kind of wanted to wash their hands of the difficulty that maintaining a trail that size took, I mean, it was just it was an incredible job.

 


[00:29:37.050] 

I enjoyed it for the most part. But there it was. It was a really hard job. And I think it was. Probably one of the subsequent trail bosses after I left came up to me and said, how did you do it? How? Because. You get pulled in so many different directions because there were so it was so politicized by the time I left that it was you're being pulled in so many different directions by so many different groups.

 


[00:30:15.050] 

There's friends of the Rubicon Rubicon Trail Foundation off Highway Motor Vehicles Division, the the Water Board, Tahoe National Forest, Eldorado National Forest. I mean, just everybody had their fingers in it. And you had to get just to just to move some rock. You had to get permission from like five different agencies. So you had to do these giant reports with pictures and everything else and describe exactly what you were going to do on your work project. And you would have to get sign off.

 


[00:30:51.260] 

And so you'd have to call each person and tell them what you were doing and give them the visual and get the sign off. And then you had other people coming from the other direction trying to put a stop to it. And so, I mean, it was just it was a constant stressor. It was very stressful. But I did the best I could with with. With the support that I had there, I had so much support, so many people supported me, even people supported the mission from afar, you know, they weren't in it, but they were supportive and.

 


[00:31:32.310] 

I'm glad it's over.

 


[00:31:36.330] - Big Rich Klein

You know my ideas. Yes, I do. I thought I should say I do. Yeah.

 


[00:31:41.220] 

So what do you think? Let's just jump right into this part. What do you think about. What are you still involved with any part of the trail, maintenance or oversight or working with any of the foundations or whoever it is that's doing anything on the trail up there anymore?

 


[00:32:03.360] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

No, because you know what? What happened is after I left, basically Friends of the Rubicon went by the wayside. Basically, they were told by the county that they were no longer needed to do maintenance or projects. And if there was a project that they could do, they would let them know. Then they started an adopt a trail program, which I thought was brilliant because it was something that they had done on the DEUCY. And I thought that was an awesome idea and.

 


[00:32:35.410] 

The Adopt a Trail Club's now get direction for their piece of the trail, they get direction from the county on what projects need to be completed. But for the most part, the county does everything now. And there's, you know, any projects would be going out and cleaning, cleaning out sediment basins or there really is not much to do, not like the days that I was there where we were moving lots of rock and building water bars and rolling dips and and doing real heavy construction by hand, county now does by equipment.

 


[00:33:12.760] 

Not my favorite, but it is what it is.

 


[00:33:16.430] - Big Rich Klein

Right. Let's discuss. You know, you mentioned you hadn't met Rick yet when you were starting your IFS project, let's talk about that. I understand it was a rescue mission.

 


[00:33:29.430] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

It was. It was. So my friend Suey, my wheelin bud that I talked about earlier and my and my absolute best friend in the world, Lynn, we decided that the forest had been shut down that whole year due to fire danger. And I heard that through the grapevine that Tahoe National Forest was going to be open on October 5th. So I called my two friends and I said, look, it's a Wednesday. It's a perfect opportunity to go out and get on the Fordyce Trail before the masses show up and we start, you know, becoming a trail clog.

 


[00:34:04.350] 

So we decided to do it. And Wednesday morning we showed up and in our stock Hummers, we started the Fordyce Trail.

 


[00:34:16.820] 

Well. There was a storm heading in for Saturday and we were sure that we could make it out of there in three days, well the storm hit Wednesday night. No wait, I'm sorry. First night, we stayed at the pool's second night as we were in as we got to the bottom of Winchhill 1 it started snowing.

 


[00:34:37.220] 

So we willed that whole afternoon and evening in the snow as it was snowing on a trail we'd never been on before and. I would like walk half a mile, come back, then we pick up the rigs, go, you know, as far as we could, just because we couldn't find the trail was covered in snow. Well, before I had left, I had let Lance know and I had let Brett Prebble from Friends of Fordyce know that we were headed out there.

 


[00:35:05.100] 

And they're all okay, you know, you sure you want to do that, it's like, yeah, what's the worst that can happen? You know, what's the worst that can happen? We break, someone comes and gets us. Well, that's you know.

 


[00:35:18.360] - Big Rich Klein

Have you ever heard of the Donner Party?

 


[00:35:20.070] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

Yeah, that's what they kept saying. That's what everybody told me. So we got out there and by the time we got to the second river crossing at the end of Thursday night. Now, it was Friday night, Friday night. We're at the second river crossing and it's still snowing. And so I get across the river and I get hung up on this pointy rock that keeps my tire keeps slipping off. And my it it pokes right through my lower control arms.

 


[00:35:52.200] 

I'm having to back off. I'm having to winch off. I'm just I can't make any forward progress. I'm winching from a tree all the way up in front of me. We decide it's one o'clock in the morning. I was by myself trying to do all this because they were on the other side of the river and we decided to just sleep there. So the next morning I wake up, I've got a crack all the way across my windshield.

 


[00:36:14.670] 

I look and my gas light is on and I'm like, OK, something's wrong. Well, as I had been dropping on that rock the whole time, I was also dropping on one on the back. And I crushed my gas tank, Skid Plate, which pushed my tank up and made my tank read funny.

 


[00:36:32.520] 

So I called Brett and I said, hey, if you know of anybody coming out, we're still another day before we finish this. I said, can you have someone bring fuel just in case? I don't think I'm low on fuel, but just in case, have them bring fuel. And he said, yeah, OK. Well, if you see anybody, anybody out there should have fuel. So you can always ask them if you don't get any fuel by the end of tonight, let me know.

 


[00:36:59.070] 

I said, OK, so we're headed up towards Winch Hill 2. And we're going around this big pinch rock, and my friend Lynn made it in her H2. I made it in my H3, but my friend Suey crawled the wall just a little too high. And I saw his two front wheels shudder. And I went, OK, you're done. And he goes, What? I go, You just broke your front diff. And he goes, I did.

 


[00:37:29.300] 

I didn't even hear it. I said, You didn't have to. I saw it. I saw those front tires go. And so he started backing up. And sure enough, it was just blown to bits, oil leaking out the whole thing. So we had to back him up and stash him in some trees because we were going to continue on to get out of there. And at that same time, I called Brett back and I said, OK, now it's a rescue mission.

 


[00:37:56.090] 

We've got a broken, dead rig. And he said, OK, OK, I'll call the we-built guys and we'll see what happens. So he called me back and he said the we-built guys are going to come out tomorrow morning. They'll meet you at the bottom of  Winchhill 2 at about 11:00. And I said, OK, that's fine. We'll just happened to be Rick, who was in the we-built crew.

 


[00:38:18.500] 

So they show up, you know, they literally lollygag on their way in there.

 


[00:38:24.770] 

They went and had breakfast and then they came in the back side and they finally showed up around noon. And I think it was Dave McQuary and Rick were putting fuel in my truck and we were discussing, you know, where the broken rig was and how we're going to get it out and all that kind of stuff. And this big tall guy looks down at me putting fuel in my truck and says, Where are your husbands? It was just us.

 


[00:38:55.700] 

And we're all, oh, well, Lynn's husband is ready to call Columbia helicopter to get us out. And my husband is sitting at home pissed off because. I'm supposed to be going to a wedding with him today, and so that's how Rick and I met and it was definitely a rescue mission. We got out and Suey's truck was really broke. Mine wouldn't come out of four-lock. So I knew I had transfer case problems. And so we got back to my house.

 


[00:39:29.140] 

The next morning, we took him to the dealerships and as per usual, everything got fixed. No questions asked. So it was really nice.

 


[00:39:38.350] - Big Rich Klein

Let's talk about what you're doing now and how you're involved in offroad at the moment and what you what you guys like to enjoy to do that kind of thing.

 


[00:39:50.680] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

So basically, we've spent the last few years working on a property that's up by the Rubicon and just getting it so that it's a vacation spot. Now that we've done that, we've decided that this 2021 is going to be our reintroduction back to off roading because we've been so busy working. So we're planning on going a lot of different places. I know we're hitting Moab in April and from there, as soon as the trail's dry out and the snow melts will be hitting Deer Valley and Slick Rock and Fordyce and Rubicon.

 


[00:40:28.720] 

And we're planning on just going everywhere. We want to do as much as possible for the rest between now and winter time. I think we're going to hit a lot of desert trails because there's a lot of trails in our neighborhood since we've moved to Nevada that we haven't really been able to go out and play on. And so we're planning on doing a lot of that.

 


[00:40:49.490] - Big Rich Klein

Sounds good. So you've mentioned that you would like to do one of the events. Shelley and I do all the time as staff that you'd like to compete at the Rebelle. How likely do you think that is?

 


[00:41:03.130] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

I finally found someone who was interested in working with me on that. And so I'm hoping by the end of next year, 2021 treats me well enough that that I can get that done. I really would like to. I've put a deposit on the Hummer EV and so I would really like to drive that in the rally. If not, you know, I have a few vehicles I can use and I think I think we could do well just because I love competing.

 


[00:41:34.420] 

I've competed in Dirt Riot a few times and I love that. But I think I also want to try rock crawling this year and I'm pretty sure I'll be rock crawling in my razor because I just feel so comfortable in it in the rocks and I'm really looking forward to it. So again, I hope 2021 treats us all really well and produces some opportunities that that I can try my hand at cone dodging. I'm really looking forward to that.

 


[00:42:03.790] - Big Rich Klein

OK, sounds good. We always will. We were really trying to build the UTV classes. We have some people that are, I think some companies that are interested in helping us do that. We'll have to see how that pans out. But what about land use? What do you what are you doing nowadays? How do you how do you propose to get word out? And is it still an issue for you?

 


[00:42:27.760] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

Well, I've written a few articles for 4Low, and land use is still near and dear to my heart because it is really important to me that we all understand what we're up against and how important it is for everyone to at least pay attention a little bit. If someone sends out a letter writing campaign or something like that, please participate because our voices are so.

 


[00:43:01.620] 

Few these days, pirate, unfortunately, has pretty much died as a medium for us. Facebook has gotten better. There are a few people who are still involved in land use. But for as much as we think that there really isn't anything going on in land use, I can promise you that there are tons of things going on in land use. And because we're being quiet, more is happening under our noses to shut area down areas down than than we realize.

 


[00:43:41.160] 

I know in northern Nevada we have Hungry Valley/Moon Rocks. The SVRA there is undergoing. They've just started a scoping period, which means that they're going to define the project and we need to be involved in defining the project. We always need to be involved from beginning to end. And the reason is just like, you know, things that have happened with President Trump's lawsuit, they were dismissed because there was no standing. It's the same reason we all have to be involved in these in these processes from beginning to end, because in the end, if we try to sue, we will be dismissed for not having standing.

 


[00:44:24.330] 

So and it doesn't take a lot of people, but it takes a lot of voices. We seriously need to step up our game when it comes to being responsive to requests. They're not it's not really it's not really happening. I know Kevin works really hard at it. I'm not working as hard at it. But again. It's hard to do everything on a national level when you're one person, it's easier to just stay and monitor what's going on in your backyard.

 


[00:44:55.320] 

And so everybody needs to just pay attention to what's going on in their backyard. And if you need help, put a call out. If you see something going on that, you know, all of a sudden you see gates going up. It's too late. It's too late. Once those gates go up, it's too late. You need to be paying attention to what the Forest Service is planning. And on every Forest Service website, there is a planning page that you can just click on their little left menu for planning and projects and go look to see what's going on in your area just once a month.

 


[00:45:30.990] 

You know, it doesn't take a lot. Put a little reminder on your computer to say, oh, check the website today just to keep an eye on it, because they are sliding stuff through that we had. We have no idea what's going on.

 


[00:45:46.360] - Big Rich Klein

And I, I would imagine it's only going to get worse going into 2021 with the new administration, new administration and the leanings that we know that that administration will bring with them.

 


[00:46:00.750] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

And I just have to say, I am not an enemy of OHV use by any stretch, but I do believe in. Monitoring and protecting habitats, monitoring and protecting trails, and the reason I do is because if we're in control of that and we're watching and maintaining and making sure that that area in particular is staying healthy and is being used appropriately, then we'll get to keep it forever. See if you don't believe that the environment that we affect the environment, then you're part of my problem.

 


[00:46:49.630] 

What I'd like people to know is that there's a balance and we are a part of that balance. And so we need to be. Conscientious of how we're affecting the nature balance around us, I totally believe that there are way too many people who lean the other way. That overdramatise our effect. What we need to do is maintain it and balance the science that's behind it and not have it be extreme in one way or the other. It's really important that if I know so many of our young wheelers who have gotten involved in environmental sciences just so they could be our voice for balance, and it's really important that we help our children understand not only that wheeling is something that we love to do and it's a great way to get out and recreate, but also that there is a balance that has to be had so that they don't start swinging one way or to, you know, one way or the other.

 


[00:48:02.660] 

And in the extremes, balance is important. And so I believe that, yep, that yellow legged frog has just as much a right to be there as I do. But that's the point. They have as many rights as we do because we're human, right? We're creatures. Yeah. Earth, yeah.

 


[00:48:22.670] - Big Rich Klein

My back in the early to mid 80s when I started wheeling. There was not a lot of people. Enjoying the sport. Or the lifestyle we could go up to Bassie and there would be 10 rigs, 10, you know, 20, 30 people there at the most on any given Saturday or Sunday or Friday we could go into.

 


[00:48:50.820] 

The Rubicon, and you might see. Three or four other rigs, you know, except on maybe Jamboree or week, you know, it was just it there just wasn't a lot of people wheeling back in the 80s. And so, you know, you could you could probably do you do a lot more and see a lot more by driving what were trails then that are now have disappeared because there was no there was not a heavy impact. And then when Bassi got closed.

 


[00:49:26.800] 

It it made a big difference because everybody that would it was an easy place to get into. You didn't even have to put it in four wheel drive. As long as you had some ground clearance, so everybody would go in there, they would trash it, they'd leave beer cans, they'd leave their campsites just trashed out and expect it. You know, I don't know what they were expecting some of that mentality once Bassi closed, everybody, you know, there was a big impact to the to the 'Con.

 


[00:49:54.470] 

And with that came a reeducation for all of us that we couldn't allow it to happen on the Rubicon or else we were going to lose it. And there was a lot of pushback from a lot of people that I consider friends. And even though I was probably one of the people, in fact, I know it was one of the people that could be considered a problem back then. There wasn't a very many of us. So there was no you never could you couldn't see the impact as soon as everybody started getting into into Wheeling, whether it was through Toyotas or Jeeps or whatever your your flavor is, every you know, people started to take that as a lifestyle and access became pretty heavy.

 


[00:50:43.370] 

I mean, I remember when there was talk about limiting how many cars, you know, how many vehicles they would let in on a weekend, you know, like putting up a toll road, having to sell a pass for that weekend and all sorts of things. And, you know, I think for the most part, most of the groups and the clubs figured it out pretty quickly, that the mentality and the way the trail was being used in the past wasn't going to work going into the future.

 


[00:51:12.470] 

Did we like to see that happen? No, because it was kind of like our own little playground and it didn't even matter where it was, if it was the Rubicon or if it was, you know, any number of other trails in the area. That was that was an issue. You know, we were losing our playground. But for the sport to survive, it had to happen because then the environmental groups are coming in.

 


[00:51:37.460] 

Well, we don't have to keep it open for, you know, 10 or 15 or 100 people. You know, if that's what the users are in a month, even, you know, back then in that in the 1980s and 90s, 2000s, you know, it it got cranked up, you know, and now look at how many. I was amazed this last winter, this last summer, even with covid went out on the trail with a friend doing some training for some beginners.

 


[00:52:04.490] 

And I could not believe how many vehicles we came across. From Wentworth Springs on the loop all the way back out to Loon how many people were out there on the trail, I mean, it literally looked like Sunrise Mall the day before Christmas or on Black Friday trying to to buy gifts. It was just crazy how many people are out there. So the reeducation of ourselves. Is something that we have to carry forward going into the the new generation of wheelers that have absolutely do not know what we did in the past, kind of like the whole idea behind this podcast is to bring in the history.

 


[00:52:48.540] 

From those that lived it so that the people that are new to the sport and when I say new, I'm talking the last 10 or 15 years even that have no idea what we went through, what we saw in the 80s, the 90s, and then also in the early 2000s with, you know, the proverbial, you know, doodoo hitting the fan. While I do not participate a lot in an actual land use, now, I do try to educate people as I still see them on the trails or anywhere else about the need to carry in and carry out, you know, our races.

 


[00:53:26.670] 

You know, when we first started putting on the rock crawls and the races, you know, everybody would kind of rely on us to pick up all the trash. Now, I can walk an event site on Sunday night, Monday morning after everybody's gone and I might find one or two water bottles that people have missed. I mean, rarely do I find any trash anywhere. So that's a good sign. So is there anything that we have not discussed that you think you'd like to talk about?

 


[00:53:52.890] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

I think you've and I you and I have talked about it before. And I, I like to talk about the no trails, no sales aspect. And what that means is for Jeep for now, Ford with the Bronco, with any of those auto manufacturers who are building vehicles to go out onto public lands, I really feel that they need to step up in their education. I remember the most amazing thing that I find it amazing now. It wasn't so much at the time, but when I bought my H3 Tread Lightly had an entire section in our manual.

 


[00:54:41.360] 

And it was all about tread lightly, and so Hummer took it upon themselves to teach their owners how to tread lightly. I don't see that with Jeep. I don't I don't know if Ford will be doing that and tread lightly. The organization, I think, is OK. And I think I enjoy their message. And for a while they were into trail projects and whatnot, too. But I think that's faded. But it's really important to me that Polaris and Can-Am and Ford and Jeep and Toyota and all of those manufacturers really take this land use thing seriously because it's really important.

 


[00:55:19.850] 

And I know they have their own lobbyists in Washington, D.C. and I would really like to see those lobbyists start paying attention to some of the omnibus bills and the lands bills and some of those things that really affect the sport and start taking on some of our causes. You don't have to ask me. You don't have to ask anyone. But those those there are people like the Motorcycle Industry Council and the ARRA that are in Washington, D.C. I would like to see them start working together to help put a put the kibosh on some of these bills that are seriously affecting our sport.

 


[00:56:02.300] 

You know, Johnson Valley, those guys have done such an amazing job working with the BLM. You have over the years and so many different locations worked well with the BLM and the Forest Service. I don't know if you've ever had to use Forest Service, but maybe on occasion these people need to understand that we're paying attention, because if we're not, they will just do whatever they want. And I understand that they have jobs to do, but we need to take it seriously.

 


[00:56:33.350] 

We do.

 


[00:56:34.700] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah. I was told by a BLM representative one time that it's harder for them to say no and more work for them to say no. This what's happening with a with a permitting process, then for them to say, yes, let's go ahead and do the project. And I had to call them out on that right away because that was just total bogus. But if they're not, I mean, the whole idea of land closures or road closures like they've done in El Dorado County Forest and other other forests, is that they don't it's not necessarily that they don't have the revenue to patrol the area, because if they leave it open, it'll be patrolled by the individual users that are using it, whether it's hunters or, you know, prospectors or just people out enjoying the scenery.

 


[00:57:24.920] 

It'll keep the the crime and bad things from happening out there. Once you close something, then the only people that are going to do it are the ones that don't care about the gate, the criminals. Right. They're going to find their way in there, you know, and so the people are going to be, you know, doing illegal activities because they know nobody's going to wander upon them, you know, not even Forest Service themselves or BLM if an areas closed.

 


[00:57:48.080] 

They're thinking, you know, hey, nobody's going in there. And it's that's totally not legit. So I agree.

 


[00:57:54.290] 

Hopefully, hopefully we can get keep what we've been able to get over the last four years back open.

 


[00:58:04.520] 

We can keep those. I have a feeling we're going to see a lot of things turned back over again and then it'll be a fight the next time there's a change of administration. But we'll see.

 


[00:58:14.030] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

And and, you know, in your interview with Phil Howell, how he he started talking about his first land use experience. And I was just so amazed at how many people even back then. Thought it was advisable to cooperate. And I'm here to say Phil was right, don't do it

 


[00:58:42.530] - Big Rich Klein

exactly, you know, the there's so many angles. You know, one of my my biggest things was, you know, if you start to give concessions and say, well, if you don't do this, we'll do this or we'll give up this, if we can have this.

 


[00:59:00.200] 

That's not how the environmental groups do it. No they're all or nothing. Yeah, they're just like, no, it's going to be our way or we're going to sue. Right. And I could never understand why, you know, just the threat of suit gets things closed down. Well, just the threat of closing it. Should bring lawsuits so that they don't and I could never understand why that was not. That wasn't an active role for land use to take,

 


[00:59:29.920] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

because we know that there are attorneys in our crowd, in our community and I'm not calling them out or anything.

 


[00:59:40.390] 

But, yeah, where have they been? Because we could really use your help. The Equal Access to Justice Act is what created the Sierra Club monster, the CBD monster, the all of the other old broads for wilderness. You know that. All of those old broads for. Yeah. Now they really exist, SUWA and all of them, if that's what created it, is that they became moneymaking machines, they would sue. And if they won, then they would be able to get all their attorney's fees covered.

 


[01:00:22.060] 

And so it literally became a money making machine. They would throw out 300 protests for, you know, a request for a review on, you know, 300 different species. And because the BLM and the Forest Service didn't have the manpower to review and provide feedback on those endangered species, they would literally have to list them. And so a lot of our endangered species are truly not endangered species. And we've been learning that over time. But it's just not it's not fair, it's not right, it's dirty pool, and I don't want to have to play it.

 


[01:01:09.270] 

So if you see me send something out that says repeal Equal Access to Justice Act, please sign it, because that's really what's created that monster. That's really what put us behind the eight ball land management, water, wildlife, air quality, water quality. All of those things are what we are purported to be affecting as off-roaders.

 


[01:01:39.510] 

And I can promise you we're not affecting any of those things.

 


[01:01:43.330] - Big Rich Klein

No, it's like the Water Quality Board, California Water Quality Board or whoever they were that that made all the water bars go in because of all the silt that was making its way into the rivers and the oils and everything else. That's such crap because more shit comes off of the freeways and highways that gets into the delta, gets into the rivers and ends up in the sea and everything else than anything. What a what an off road, what a group of off-roaders can do on the Rubicon or Fordyce are put all the trails together, you know, is none of them have in impact yet.

 


[01:02:15.310] 

And compared to what people driving over the causeway. Yeah, exactly.

 


[01:02:19.080] 

And so even like the Truckee River is a 303 delisted water body, which means it's toxic and all of it comes off of Interstate 80. And so when you see things like that and then you see the furch relicensing data for for that whole Rubicon Basin, that proves that the water is pristine and not toxic. And yet one guy who's on the make or on the take does a study to try and say there's 100 cubic yards of sediment going into the waters of the United States.

 


[01:02:55.650] 

Off of the Rubicon was a total lie. None of his peers would sign it. It was the whole reason the cleanup, an abatement order was started. And yet that document is no longer on the website. They had to throw it out because it was such a lie.

 


[01:03:15.840] - Big Rich Klein

It was bad science. Yeah, it was such a lie.

 


[01:03:19.020] 

I know when we when I was part of the land use push there on the Rubicon Trail wise, trail patrol when things first went sideways there in Spider Lake and Little Sluice talked to Disco, Tim Webster and said, hey, you work for EID, ID or SMUD or whoever it was.

 


[01:03:42.030] 

And he was testing waters and I said, get out there and get right now, get samples, get samples and get a status point that we can look back on today. And he did that. And I don't know if it was ever anything that needed to be pulled forward or not, but at least we had those for at least the pollution aspect that that first was generated up there.

 


[01:04:05.280] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

We were told it was polluted. Right. And it wasn't. And it wasn't. Now, again, another lie and those kinds of things, you know, you kind of wonder, it's like, how do you fight that stuff? How do you fight it when your government lies to you? And isn't it so amazing to me what a precursor. Everything that happened on the Rubicon in politics and in government is what's happening nationwide now?

 


[01:04:32.190] 

Yep, absolutely. And it's just it's frightening. How do you fight it?

 


[01:04:37.410] - Big Rich Klein

Yeah, I you know, hopefully people are listening to this will jump in and, you know, when there's like letter writing campaigns that need to happen, get involved with your your local forest or BLM area, anybody that uses Northern Nevada, California, get involved with what's going on at Moonrocks. I've had my fight with Carson City and especially over the Moon Rocks area. So I'd love to see that that area change to be actually an open designated recreational area instead of just being open like BLM lands are supposed to be there in Nevada with the hammers or any place else, you know, get involved locally.

 


[01:05:28.050] 

Doesn't have to necessarily be through state organizations or clubs or anything like that. There's there's always a friends of somewhere. And if there's not and you feel that you might be able to help start a friends of something, do it, you know, look at the guys you go out wheeling with ladies.

 


[01:05:44.340] 

You go out with your friends and say, hey, you know, we need to we need to look at our backyard here and protect it, especially in the west. The east has been doing such a great job at taking private properties and getting people, landowners to to open up parks. And it's it's everything east of the Rockies, you know, there's very little open land like we have farther in the west, so the park, the whole park situation is working really well.

 


[01:06:16.490] 

But I don't want to see that have to happen in the rest of the West. But, you know, someday it probably will. We're going to keep enjoying the sport. So get involved now and hopefully we can keep that from happening.

 


[01:06:29.840] - Jacquelyne Bebe White

And involvement.  doesn't necessarily mean, you know, spend every night from six to 10 writing letters. It just means pay attention and spread the word. Every single 4low magazine has a land use section in the back. Just read it, read it once, read it twice, just understand what's going on and all kinds of areas. When you read some of those articles, you'll see not only the history, but how we're how we're dealing with it now, how we've dealt with it in the past, what you can do and what we need from you, because we will always tell you what we need, exactly what we need.

 


[01:07:09.950] 

And most of it will not take more than ten minutes, I promise. Awesome.

 


[01:07:14.870] - Big Rich Klein

Well, Bebe, thank you for for sitting down and doing the interview and conversations with Big Rich. We've enjoyed this hour and 20 minutes or so that we've been talking.

 


[01:07:27.080] 

I hope I hope we get a lot of listeners and a lot more involvement and everything in our lifestyle. And again, thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you. All right. And another thing is thank you for writing for Falo. Oh, you're welcome. And anybody else that wants to write Four for love, just get in touch with me. Yeah. Or. Thanks. All right. Talk to you later. Bye.

 


[01:07:50.000] 

If you enjoy these podcasts, please give us a rating, share some feedback with us via Facebook or Instagram and share our link among your friends who might be like minded. Well, that brings this episode to an end, but you enjoyed it. We'll catch you next week with conversations with Big Rich. Thank you very much.