Witnessing Creativity with Alexandra Beller

Creativity through the lens of a multi-hyphanate creative

"Creativity is: Authenticity. Helping others find themselves."

Alexandra Beller, Artistic Director of Alexandra Beller/Dances, (2002-present), was a member of the Bill T. Jones/Arnie Zane Dance Company from 1995-2001. Alexandra has created over 50 original Dance Theatre works, presented at/commissioned by theatres throughout NYC, and companies in Korea, Hong Kong, Oslo, Cyprus, and the US. Alexandra currently choreographs predominantly for Theatre. Credits: Off Broadway: Sense and Sensibility (Helen Hayes Award, Lortel Nomination, IRNE Best Choreography), The Mad Ones (59E59), Bedlam’s Peter Pan (Duke Theatre), How to transcend a happy marriage (Lincoln Center Theatre). Regional: La Jolla Playhouse, The Goodman Theater, Folger Shakespeare Library, ART, Portland Center Stage, Milwaukee Rep. She was on faculty at Princeton from 20152022 and teaches at The Laban Institute for Movement Studies. She currently runs workshops in Somatics, Theater, Laban, Bartenieff, coaches private Somatics clients, and is writing 2 books.

https://www.alexandrabeller.com/

https://www.alexandrabellerdances.org/

https://www.instagram.com/alexandrabellerdances/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexandra-beller-0a56a57/

https://www.tiktok.com/@thelabanista

https://www.facebook.com/alexandrabellerdances

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8suG0TLGKqufov8IpqLrKw

Transcript

Mari 0:20

Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast. I'm your host, Mari Riesberg. Over the past several years, I've combined my degrees in acting and somatic psychology to share my sustaining creativity techniques with performers. And now I've decided to share it with a bigger audience that includes you. I believe we are all creative, and this podcast is all about that. I'll be interviewing people from all backgrounds, ages, and creativity experiences to share just how creative we all are. Today I'll be chatting with Alexandra Beller, multi-hyphenate creative. Please enjoy Alexandra Beller. Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast. Today I'm chatting with Alexandra Beller, Multi-Hyphenite Creative. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I am so thrilled that you are here. We, as we were talking before I hit record, I feel my whole soul sparkle just knowing that this is going to be an amazing conversation. But before we dive in, why don't you let our listeners know a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Alexandra 1:39

Sure. I've had a winding journey through dance and theater and healing. I started as a professional dancer. Um I danced for quite a while with Bill T. Jones. Um, really felt the urge to make my own work and became like a dance theater artist and had a company for a long time. That company still exists, but is not a performance company anymore. Inside that, I started teaching and inside teaching, I got a degree called a CMA, a certified movement analyst, which is a degree in the Laban Movement Analysis and Bartania Fundamentals systems. That brought me into more healing work and um talking about trauma. And then inside that, I was started coaching artists on their own creative process, especially choreographers, and then later actors trying to get into their body. And so the Venn diagram that you were referring to feels like between teaching and creating and healing, like whatever that center space that holds all three of those feels like where I live now. And then inside that, I've written two books, which are both coming out hopefully this year.

Mari 2:48

I love it. I mean, what what a journey that you have gone on your your own creative self experience and expression, but to now support so many other creatives to find them, their spirit or soul or creative self within it as well. When you think of creativity, what does it mean to you to be creative?

Alexandra 3:16

Uh, I mean, the first thing that the first word that comes to me is authenticity. And when you said helping them find themselves, I I felt like, yes, exactly. That is my whole approach. I'm not teaching you anything about choreography or direction or, you know, what I'm hopefully um sharing is a methodology for helping you map yourself. And that means your values and your desires and your aesthetic, and also means like finding frameworks for letting go of what doesn't serve you, whether that's your artistic inheritance, stylistic inheritance, um abusive practices that you grew up inside, um, letting go of maybe some mainstream values or expectations, and really starting to map like, okay, this is what I believe, this is what I feel, this is what I want to make, and then helping you find ways to do that that are the healthiest and most efficient, you know, journeys for you.

Mari 4:20

Oh, I'm like, there's so many questions and so many ways we could take this and the journey that we get to go on today. What is your own experience of your journey to discovery, your creative self-discovery, creative expression discovery? Take us on that journey.

Alexandra 4:42

Um, I mean, I think certainly when I left Bill as a dancer, I had a period of time when I think I was just trying to figure out how I wanted to move that was outside of, you know, having been in somebody else's process for a long time. So I was very um adamant and rigorous with myself about creating movement and vocabulary. And then I think I got through that and I sort of pruned what was Bill off of my. I mean, certainly uh I have absorbed a lot of things that I like and want to keep. And then finding my own voice and letting go of, you know, kind of being uh a protege of somebody else. And then I stopped being interested in making movement and started being interested in making work, and so started, you know, really just drawing material from other bodies and crediting them for creating that material. Like I stopped, often stopped calling myself a choreographer and was more the director and like the cast was the set of choreographers. Um, and that drew me into theater, and so that process has been a really interesting shift to go from making dance theater to working in movement inside theater proper, like straight plays and um that kind of thing, not even musicals, really like talking about how we start to create narrative from the body. And then, of course, that Venn diagrams with healing, because when we're talking about truthfulness and movement, we're talking about letting an inner self be able to um come out into the world and use the body to use its voice and say things that are true that maybe we don't always consciously know or aren't willing to articulate verbally or in writing. So I think my process has been a listening process, as all learning is, and um a lot of being willing to face that space of the unknown and sit with my tolerance for not knowing and not controlling what's to come out of safety or thinking I can control it, and not having to tie things up neatly, and um increasing my tolerance for people also not knowing what I'm doing, or not a feeling like they can put me in a box or label me, and sitting with my tolerance for what that means about my popularity, or you know, changing what my markers of success feel like. Because if I've decided I'm not gonna fit into a box, I am not gonna get as much, you know, return in some ways as I might if I fit into a box, you know, meaning that people who like when they know what to expect from you and you are consistent in like offering that output, um, you'll get more work, you know. And I I have plenty of work, but it it now, you know, is a lot more authentic and personalized. And you know, it took a little while to get there.

Mari 8:05

Yeah, this journey did not happen overnight for sure. Yeah, yeah. And this the experience of kind of uncovering that you have gone on to rediscover or take ownership in new ways of your work. How did you navigate that when you bumped up against maybe some bigger pieces that were a little more challenging? Or what is that nav navigation of roadblocks or bumps in the road?

Alexandra 8:43

Well, I you know, I think with any like outer roadblocks, it's generally always reflecting some kind of inner roadblock. So for me, it's always been the process of like being willing to look at the reflection and say, okay, so you know, this idea of building tolerance is also an idea of like, okay, I'm gonna slow down and sit with what comes up for me from a deeper place. And so, I mean, for example, when I used to be more of a straight-up dance technique teacher, um, I was not the most popular teacher at the studio I taught at. There were definitely people who just had these like packed classes and you know, hooting and hollering. And I I felt a lot of jealousy and a lot of um less-thenness. And, you know, I'd be I there were so many classes where, you know, I'd be lying on the floor in constructive rest with six students and crying while I was giving a guided meditation because the class next door had 30 people in it. And I felt like, why do they like that person and they don't like me? And of course, you know, that's good work for me to do, not professionally, but you know, in terms of family and my like parts work and, you know, being like, yeah, because I didn't feel chosen as a child and I didn't, you know, like that's just good life work. So I do feel like when I'm talking about building tolerance, I'm talking about I could build a story around that, or you know, I'm gonna work on my marketing and I'm gonna, you know, and it's not that I can't do those things, but I also had a lot of work to do to say, what are my values around teaching? Because I I probably could figure out what that person's doing. And I actually I did figure out what those people are doing systemically. And I I could fashion a class where I'm I'm doing that too. I think I know how to do it, but I had to ask myself, like, is that is that how I want to teach? Is that what's important to me? Is that what's gonna keep me growing, bring me joy, make you know, nurture and feed my creativity? And the answer was just no. And I'm not putting down that class at all. And I think that class is necessary and useful. And people obviously wanted it, and I'm glad that it existed, but it's I'm not the teacher for that, and I didn't want to be. And I I had to grapple with like you're gonna make less money than that teacher, you're gonna have to deal with some feelings that come up from your life around being less than or being othered, or you know, not being the one. And that's good, useful work to do. And you know, when it comes up, I need to, you know, feel into the the size of it and say, sweetie, this is not about this class, this is about something else, and that's okay. But like, don't don't make that about this class. This class is fine. And these six people are having an experience, they're not gonna get anywhere else. And that's who you decided you want to be. And, you know, if you're stressed about money, we can talk about money at another time in another context. But um, like, let's just peel off those layers and say, okay, this is touching a deeper thing. It's a great conversation for me to have with myself inside class during this guided meditation is not the moment I'm gonna get into that deeper work. So let's just try to table it without shutting it down and I'll come back to it later. And you know, I'll draw or move or talk or think about it. Yeah, um, but right now, like you have an opportunity to be the teacher that you really want to be for these six people. Should we show up for that? Does that feel like we can show up for that? And yeah, yeah, yeah, I can do that. Yeah, okay, let's do that. And you know, within five minutes, I always was like, oh yeah, that's an idea we were talking about. Oh, that I'm so excited about. And that's oh, this you know, research I've been doing about this, you know, mirror neurons. And that's the teacher I want to be, and that's what gets me lit up in the room. And that's why I'm doing this is for the role exchange and for my own like continued growth. And so let's show up that way.

Mari 13:03

First of all, thank you for walking us through that and the vulnerability to share all those pieces with listeners and putting it all out there. It's it's not easy to really show those tender parts what the journey has been. And so I really appreciate you being willing to share that and and just the healing journey and that intersection of creativity and healing and how they work together. And I know we were talking a little bit about this before I hit record. I let's let's dig in. Let's talk about it.

Alexandra 13:43

Yeah. So what I mentioned before we started is that I just I got my um manuscript back for the very final revision. Really wasn't supposed to be like a huge substantive revision, but there is this one thing that I just had been circling around and not saying because I feel like it's a controversial idea and there are gonna be people who are upset with me for naming it the way I'm choosing to name it. And I finally was like, I gotta do it, I gotta write it. So I did I made this big, you know, revision of this one section and I wrote this essay about art and healing. And the premise of the essay is that for my whole professional life, I feel like when you're in, I'm gonna say in air quotes kind of high art circles, people who, you know, are on the maybe more um experimental end of dance and you know, really want like new ideas and non-commercial, not glossy, not seen it before, not derivative work. Um that when you bring up the word healing, there is a stigma attached to it, like, oh, this isn't gonna be good art. Like, you know, if you put in the marketing for a dance theater piece that this is about a healing experience for the performers andor the audience, that people are gonna have an eye roll, like, oh, it's it's like therapeutic, but it's not like good art. And um, I've been grappling with this for a long time because, in my experience as both a maker and a performer, art can be one of the most healing experiences we can have when designed for that purpose. And I think the greatest art I've ever seen is healing work, and I think we can look at certain things like visual art and see that. You know, you look at something like monks, the scream, and you're like, yeah, I bet that there are people who look at that painting and they're like, Oh, I feel seen, like that's what I feel like, and I feel recognized, and it heals something in me to look at that painting. Um, but when we do it in dance, I feel in particular that something about maybe the Venn diagram of like uh dance as therapy and dance as art has made people feel cringy. And uh this piece that I wrote deposits that I think that too many things that are using dance as healing are being labeled art. And so then people see it and it's uh it's like that wasn't meant to be a piece of art, it was meant to exist. I think everybody should dance. So I'm not saying that people who are, you know, doing this healing artw shouldn't be doing it. But not everything that's called art should be called art. Art is a separate thing, art is a way of like, yes, there's expression, but it for me has to go a step beyond expression because there's a relationship we're trying to have with the audience that is essential, fundamental, and it it there's a responsibility for artists to be thinking about this experience that the audience is getting. And I think a lot of art that is really meant to be healing and not art is not going that step to be like, what is happening for the audience? How am I condensing and saturating the lived experience into imagery that that um makes it a portal to another system or another way of thinking or another way of feeling? How am I crafting this rigorously for the audience? It's not just how am I expressing myself? And everybody should be expressing themselves through movement. I am not trying to take dance away from anybody. In fact, I think if it weren't trying to be art, maybe more people would be willing to dance and not feel that there was this high watermark or standard or expectation that they had to hit. Well, I can't do that. Yeah, you don't need to do that, babe. You just need to be in your body and be alive and start waking up. You don't need to hit any kind of mark. And that also doesn't mean that that healing work doesn't ask for a witness. Sometimes it does. I feel like there's all this material, and sometimes it's social justice work that doesn't want to be art. And sometimes it's inner expression healing catharsis that doesn't want to be art. And many of those things might still want to witness. Like I am gonna go down to the water and I'm gonna make, I'm gonna dance with a bunch of people about water to raise awareness and uh still doesn't necessarily make it art, right? It's important, it's essential, it's communal, it's active, it's got momentum, I want to support it. It's not necessarily art because I'm not going that next step to craft it intentionally towards an audience experience, and that's where it becomes art. And you absolutely do not have to do that, but I think then pull the label of art off of it, separate art and healing a little. And then I think the healing in both scenarios, both the healing work and the artwork, could actually exponentially grow. Yeah, the flourish.

Mari 19:16

I'm so curious for our listeners who may have never heard the phrase or term witness of a healing experience. I wonder, could you tease it apart a little bit of like audience and witness because they're both observers of something? And what do you mean?

Alexandra 19:37

Well, I think if we think of the idea of witness, it is a fairly one-sided perspective. I am watching something and that's my job. My job is to look at this thing. I'm not I don't have an expectation that I'm being changed by the thing I'm watching. When I'm an audience, I'm coming in with a hope that what you have made is gonna change something for me. Yeah. That you are you have crafted something and you are thinking about me. When I witness something, they may not even know you're there, right? You can be a witness to something and they have they don't even know you're watching. Um, an audience is an intentional relationship that requires craft and it requires responsibility for the audience's experience. When you're witnessing something, there's no expectation that anybody even knows you're there, much less that they care that you're there, right? Right, yeah. Um, and that's the way it's meant to be. And so something like an authentic movement practice, which grew out of Bartenia F Fundamentals, um is a is a crafted experience, a designed experience where there is a mover and the purpose of this is healing, not art. Um, and that mover gets to do absolutely anything they want. And the witness is and they have a a secondary job to just keep them, the person physically safe, because sometimes that that mover closes their eyes. But um, but other than keeping them physically safe, their job is just to watch and take in and you know, kind of clock and catalog and notice. And they can be making associations, but for the most part, I'm like, I am just watching you and holding the traffic and the flow of this experience, maybe to be able to feed it back to you, maybe just to have been here and that you had somebody. And I think that's the thing about um like our ongoing intimate relationships, family or spouse or you know, chosen family, etc., is that you have a witness to your life. And there's something that's so remarkable about having a witness to your life and the way that, you know, if we think about The physics of what resonance is. It's something bouncing off of something else and coming back to you that helps you see your own shape. And it's very different from somebody telling you about yourself, right? That resonance and witnessing is a way to create a bounce for you to bounce back to yourself, that you get to see yourself. I sometimes think um, I don't mind that I'm aging myself, but in one of the Indiana Jones movies, he he's over this chasm and he's he has to get across, and he's like, I don't know how to get across. And then he takes, scoops up a handful of sand and he throws it, has this idea and he throws it across the chasm, and suddenly you realize there's an invisible bridge, and the sand has landed on the bridge, and he can see the sand. And he walks on the bridge with the sand like illuminating what was an invisible pathway from one place to another that felt like a chasm. And I sometimes think of witnessing as like that sand that allows you to see a pathway you hadn't seen before just by their presence.

Mari 23:10

Thank you for kind of splitting those two pieces and helping listeners and myself understand a little deeper how we can be different presence, whether it's the presence of an audience or the presence of a witness. And both are important and valuable and a part of that healing experience, whether it is an audience or a witness or whatever is happening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In in your own journey and crafting of art and creativity, where do you draw inspiration? Who or what is inspiring you these days?

Alexandra 24:10

Um Yeah, it's a great question. I I feel like I am a little farther from my choreographic identity lately because I've been so focused on writing these books and doing a lot of teaching. So I haven't I've made uh work at universities and generally when I'm making work at a university, I have this separate um priority of meeting the students and their interest and their like pull towards expressing something. And truthfully, what's been coming up in all the universities lately is political. Yeah. So I've been making a lot of work about resistance. Um, because both in my body and in the bodies of the students that I'm meeting, that we're just like there's a lot of rage and a lot of um, you know, helplessness and um feeling that wants to come out. So a lot of the work that I've been making lately has been about resistance. Um and then a lot of the writing that I've been doing is about systems and um trying to like back up and see systems because I feel like there's so much we're needing to dismantle right now, whether we're talking about white supremacy or the patriarchy or ableism, you know, the wealth gap and capitalism. Uh there are just so many things that are trying to be pulled apart that this um embodied experience of backing up, zooming out, opening the aperture to be able to see the matrix of a system feels like the directionality and physicality that a lot of things are asking for these days. I've been thinking a lot about the patriarchy as you know, we're hitting this, like, you know, Roe v. Wade got overturned on, you know, we're having this like absurd, you know, upsurge in uh like very overt misogyny patriarchy, I think in an extinction burst and trying to just like have a last hurrah. And as I'm trying to look at that system, I'm like, what is required of my body to really examine that system enough to, you know, like in the matrix, be like, oh, once I see it, it doesn't hold any power over me anymore. You know, obviously there's legislation that still needs to be, you know, overturned or enacted. But like in the big picture, I feel like a lot of these systems really just require true perception. Like once you see it, it's like quantum in a way. Like when you're looking at it, it you know, except the opposite of quantum. When you're looking at it, it doesn't exist anymore, you know.

Mari 27:06

Right.

Alexandra 27:07

Yeah, shining that light helps it disappear.

Mari 27:10

Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Well, oh, what do I want to ask you? There's so many things and so many pieces for individuals who may just be kind of starting their own healing creative journey. What are some small steps that you would support or recommend? Or how could someone just start begin to dip their toe into that experience or that process?

Alexandra 27:47

Well, I think maybe um the first part might be this conversation we're having of like, what's the purpose of this creativity? Because creativity has a lot of different outlets. Is this for me? Is it trying to heal something? Does it need a witness? Does it does it feel like a witness will help it become and help me feel? Is that witness just a witness, a sounding board, a a reflector? Or am I trying to have a relationship with that witness where I'm making an offering towards them having an experience and a change? That that makes them more of an audience. So already I feel like there's three pathways. Like, is this for me? Um, is this for me, but I need support and a witness? Or is this for me, but also for you in equal parts? Maybe in some ways, even more for you than for me. Okay, that feels like an audience relationship. So two of those don't feel like art. They feel like healing, one requiring somebody and one not requiring anybody. And the third one feels like art. So I feel like that might be the first question. What is this trying to be and how do other people fit into it? And it might change, you know. I might be like, this is just for me. I'm just, you know, doing this thing. And I'm, you know, maybe I make a set of drawings that feel like they're expressions of my inner family system. And I'm, you know, starting to draw from the perspective of different inner children or teens or something. But maybe I'm like, oh, I want to show this to people. I feel like uh I feel like I want some kind of discussion around this. I want witnesses, and maybe I show it. And maybe some of those conversations made me feel like, God, I feel like this might be actually an art series that I'm making. Okay, now I'm gonna be more intentional and I'm gonna craft this. And I mean, it's like what would the experience be for an audience in seeing this? And how do I want their journey? And how would I start to bring their lived experience into the room with it? How do I want to craft it? Is it is it a spatial choice? Is it a delivery choice? Is it a you know, format? Uh, is it more information, less information, sound embodiment, you know, like I have I want to think about their whole experience receiving this. And so, you know, it's not that it can't go through those cycles and it can't, you know, once you start down one of those paths that it couldn't, you know, merge with another. Um, but I think maybe that would be the first question. And then each of those three lanes would have a set of other questions, right? So if it's healing, you know, what medium brings me flow? Uh what um what places do I feel like I start to invert or get in my own way or sabotage and how might I have a discussion with the parts of me that come up in those moments to regain flow? Um and that might be about inner critic, it might be about shame, it might be a conversation with one of your parts, it might be about consent, because I feel like sometimes part of the self decides to do something and I haven't actually gotten buy-in from other parts of the self, and I just start bullying my way toward an outcome. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get over this thing that happened to me. I'm gonna heal this thing. So I'm gonna push into the yeah, you're not fully ready for that full experience that you're designing and you're pushing yourself past your tolerance, and it's actually gonna counteract and it's gonna implode or sabotage itself because you're gonna go into some kind of collapse or freeze or something because you've overshot this intention to heal, perfectly lovely intention, but I've bullied myself into like trying to push through the therapy beyond my tolerance, right? So slowing down and making sure all your parts are consenting to whatever's happening. And if there's part of you that's like, I don't want to draw the picture, I don't like the way it makes me feel to draw the picture. Be like, okay, well, let's talk about that. If you had a kid in a therapeutic process, a visual, like an art therapy process, and that kid said to you, I don't want to draw the picture that you told me to draw. I don't like the way it makes me feel. You have a great conversation on your hands. You would never, as that child's parent or therapist, say, Well, just draw it anyway. Just like it's good for you to draw it. So draw the picture, okay? You know, you would it's insane to think about doing that. Nobody would do it. But we do do that to ourselves. Like, you know, push through, get like you need to get to the other side of this. So that what? So that, you know, oh, that's some kind of productivity conditioning that's acting out on me where I'm like, I have to heal this trauma so that I can what find the right partner and you know progress in my career, lose weight, you know, what it what like what's the thing that's gonna happen, quote unquote, after I heal that I'm trying to bully myself through healing. Yeah. So like those are some questions I might ask down that one row. There are different questions for the like, why the witness? What's that bringing me? And then the art and why the art? Yeah. So a lot, you know, I feel like what are the questions that help me find flow in these down these different paths? And often a lot of it I find is about inner critic and shame. Yes.

Mari 33:30

All that all comes back to that. Often it often comes back to that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been such a beautiful time to share with you. And thank you so much for sharing all of these pieces. I have one last question. What does it feel like in your body to be creative?

Alexandra 33:52

It feels like being me. It feels like, oh, there I am. And, you know, when you're with somebody else and they really just like appear. And, you know, whether it's like an outburst or a, you know, a way of being goofy or something like really uninhibited and unapologetic comes out of somebody, and you're like, oh, there you are. I see you. And I feel like when that happens with other people, I invariably feel love. I'm like, oh, there you are. Even if it's like, oh wow, there you are, and you're overstimulating me, and I don't even, you know, like want to be here right now. I still feel like, oh, but I love that you're doing that. I love that that there you are. That's so great. I need a little distance, but like amazing. I love it. I love that. I don't mean this in a like in a valley girl way, but like I love that for you. Yeah. But I feel like that same energy happens me to me, where I'm like, I'm really in creative flow and I'm like, oh, there you are. Oh, I love you. There you are. I love that for you. You know, and I feel like I have a similar sense of self-love when I'm like, that's me. Oh, yeah, there's nothing, there's nothing good or bad about it's just like that's me. There's no value positive or negative. And I don't mean it's not positive, but it's not like, oh, there you are, you're good. It's just like, oh, there you are. And just the whole system and conditioning of valuing or devaluing ourselves, I realize is not actually a thing. Yeah.

Mari 35:32

That we're allowed to just be. Being is enough.

Alexandra 35:35

Being is enough, yeah. And it's not, you know, what I make or what comes out of it. It's just like, oh, there I am. That's the beginning and the end and the being of it. And then of course, yes, I can do things with that in the world, and I can make things and I can help people and serve and all of that. But there is this underlying um cushion of just being that uh is enough.

Mari 36:04

Beautiful, beautifully said, and I it resonates with me. I I can feel all of it as you're talking. Well, thank you again for taking the time to join me. If people want to learn more about your work, how to get in touch with you, where to find you.

Alexandra 36:22

My uh my website is really the best hub for all of that stuff. I've got uh free classes and essays and goodies and links to my book website and all of that stuff. So alexandrabeller dances.org is the best place and you can find me there, reach me there, find free content, etc.

Mari 36:39

Perfect. Well, I will put links in show notes so people have very easy access. And thank you again for taking the time to join me. This has been such a beautiful conversation.

Alexandra 36:49

Thank you for me too. Thanks, Mari.

Mari 36:59

Thanks for listening to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast. We'd love to keep in touch, so follow us on Facebook and Instagram. We are at Sustaining Creativity. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, tag your friends and family so they can listen too. We'd love to hear from you, so leave your reviews, comments, and questions. Check out our website, sustainingcreativity.com, for upcoming offerings and creativity coaching. Tune in Tuesdays for our next episode. And remember, with creativity, anything's possible.