Sustaining Creativity Podcast
Sustaining Creativity Podcast
Creative Change with John Voelz
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Creativity through the lens of musician, author and podcast host,
"I think we make the choice to be creative
John Voelz is the host of the Gig to Live podcast, a full-time musician, and the author of "Becoming an Idea Mentalist: The Unusual Perspectives, Practices and Rituals of Idea People."
Through his speaking, writing, and conversations, he explores the creative life, the realities and practicalities of performing, innovation, and the unusual ways idea-driven people turn experiences into something meaningful and lasting.
https://www.facebook.com/JohnVoelz/
https://www.instagram.com/johnvoelzmedia
https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-voelz-b953264/
https://gigtolive.buzzsprout.com/
To share my training creativity techniques performance. I decided to share with we're all in creative I believe we are all creative and it's all about. I'll be interviewing people from all backgrounds, ages, and creativity experiences to share just how creative we all are. Today I'll be chatting with John Wolf, musician, author, and host of please and join me. Welcome to the Sustaining Creativity Podcast. Today I'm chatting with John Bowles, musician, author, and host of Gig2Live Podcast. Welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00Hey Murray, how are you?
MariI am doing well. How are you, John?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm doing great. I'm camping right now. My wife and I are camping. There's a heat dome in Michigan, and uh we are in a really nice little camp now. So we're we're trying to enjoy a camping trip in the air conditioning.
MariAh, that sounds lovely. Yes. That sounds great to be camping. Well, why don't you share a little bit about who you are, what you do, so our listeners know who they're listening to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure. Well, I am a full-time musician and I'm an author. I have kind of traded in the world of creativity with every single job I've had my entire life. And um, I get bored easy, but I also like to just stretch my creative muscles. So my wife is exactly the same way. So we've always got our hands in something, elbows deep in some creative endeavor. And uh, you know, whether it be performing arts or creating, you know, physical art or making music, uh, telling stories. Uh, we we I have this Big to Live podcast where I have been trying to help musicians who are making a full-time go of it, uh, you know, enjoy the life that they signed up for.
MariAmazing. I'm so curious. How walk us through your journey to being a full-time musician when creative pursuits become careers? What was that journey for you?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'd like to say it was because I just chose that I've always wanted to do, but honestly, uh, circumstances kind of uh forced me to a place where I had to say, what options do I have available? And which option do I like the most? And uh so I've always done music. Uh, but long story short, I had a career that came to an end after 30 years. My wife and I decided we wanted to open up our dream business, which was a cafe. Uh, it was a coffee shop by day, a beer and wine bar by night. It was a live music venue. Uh, it was everything we always wanted. Uh, you know, food all day long, super creative. It was an amazing piece of eye candy, and we opened the doors to our dream restaurant six days before COVID. So, uh, so needless needless to say, we we pretty much lost everything. We took what we had left, we hit the road, we live on the road full time, and uh music is something that I have always done at at least a part-time level. And it seemed really easy just to, you know, now just kind of pivot a bit and say, This is what I'm going to do full-time. I'm going to make music full-time.
MariWow, what what a man, six days before everything shuts down. That yeah, that's I'm curious, you know, when you think of creativity, and it sounds like you you have you live a very creative life, and whether you want to or whether it's kind of forced upon you sometimes, but sure, what does it mean to you to be creative?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I think it's interesting that you mentioned, you know, whether you make the choice or if it's forced upon you, because I think really that's how creativity should work. Um, I think we sometimes make the choice to be creative, uh, just because I think that's part of flexing the creative muscle is being able to change things up for the sake of change. I had people when I was growing up tell me, don't just change for the sake of change. And I think that that's a lie. I think uh I think that changing for the sake of change really helps us uh condition ourselves and those around us to be more willing to accept creativity when it's necessary and even when it's not absolutely necessary, but still makes sense, maybe at the time to somebody anyway. So I think that creativity is the manifestation of ideas, that's really what it gets down to, and um, you know, we oftentimes will think of creativity in terms of arts and crafts, and that makes sense because those things are physical, easily observable manifestations of ideas. You know, we have something in our head, we put it down on paper, or uh, but I think creativity at its core really gets down to ideas, and I think every single one of us uh are, you know, we have creativity in our bones, but at the same time, creativity is a spectrum. So you we know some people in our lives, I think every one of us, where we say, wow, they are so good at generating ideas and having creative pursuits. It seems to come to them naturally, and I think it does to some degree for some people, uh, and in bigger doses than others, but that doesn't mean that we can't grow our creativity, I think we can stretch our creativity, we can become more creative people as we exercise those muscles. And I think that really gets down to experience and community with others. And uh, I think at the height of creativity, if if I were to say, what's the most creative thing? It's it's new ideas, it's ideas that change things that make us think differently, um, things that problem solve or add value to something and generally help in some way. But it's it's all over, it's all over the map.
MariYeah.
SPEAKER_00Um the kinds of creativity and then uh the degree to which we as humans can be creative.
MariI love that. I agree. I, you know, the manifestation of ideas, and then what do we do with those ideas, you know, taking that from the idea incubation into more action and sharing. I I want to circle back the change for the sake of change. Just I what are some examples of that showing up in your life? You seem to be someone who has a little thriving in that area.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I um I enjoy change. I know that that is not the case for change or um they're just uncomfortable with it because it takes extra work, uh, you know, to adapt to some new kind of thing, whatever it is. Um, but I have always thought uh that change for the sake of change is good because it keeps everybody on their toes. And if you create an environment where change is normal and maybe even necessary to whatever you are doing, then when change happens, the people that you are surrounding yourself with are less likely to you know raise a pitchfork and say kill the beast. Um because because they're used to it. They go, Oh yeah, this is what we do. And so every organization that I've ever worked with, I've tried to foster that environment so we become used to it, and you know, that means that you have to deal with sacred cows, you have to deal with things that nobody wants to change, and that means that you also have to be good at being a people person so you can bring people along for the ride with you. I don't think I've always been good at that in my life. I think that sometimes my my ability to do new and different creative ideas has outpaced my ability to bring people along for the ride. And so it's a it's a constant work in progress.
MariThat makes that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00I do believe it's you know, it's important if for nothing else, just so everybody becomes accustomed to it.
MariYeah, the you know, I can appreciate the the idea of or having ideas about change and the change outpacing people's ability, or you know, how it's we love those big ideas that is that sweet spot of familiarity and newness, and it we still have to be that the guide for people because people aren't gonna come along if no one is there holding their hand. So yeah, I can really appreciate the challenges of that and sure and how it helps helps and hinders us at times. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00For sure. Yeah, I I remember uh one time I was working with a church and uh had the idea to create a charity wine, and instantly I knew uh the red flags that were going to go up, you know, because not every church, no matter how contemporary they are or whatever, how forward thinking, uh, alcohol and church also, you know, it just creates some issues. So, you know, so you have to, in those kind of creative endeavors, you have to say, who do I need in the room with me to vet this, to get ahead of any controversy, to have good answers for things. Who do we need to talk to? You know, for uh, for example, in that scenario, down with the AA group that meets at the church and ask them.
MariRight, yeah.
SPEAKER_00We we had to sit down with the AA group and say, tell us what you think about this idea. What are the questions that are going to come up? If we can, if people say to us, hey, what does the AA group think about this? We want to be able to have an answer. And they were super helpful, you know.
MariAmazing.
SPEAKER_00Not to misquote them, but I think they said, Hey, uh, alcohol is not the problem, alcoholism is the problem. So we like the idea, and then they gave us ways to talk about it. And I think sometimes people pull the trigger on change, and I've done it myself, without thinking through what could possibly go wrong, how do we best handle it? And then being able to hold that loosely too, because you don't want to wait too long, you don't want to just vet the thing to death, and then it doesn't make sense anymore.
MariRight, right. Well, you know, the you're talking about kind of some of the challenges and doing our best to get in front of them, but how do you what is it like for you to navigate those creative challenges, whether it's in music or working in community, how do you how do you approach them, navigate them, and come out the other side?
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. That's a good question. I I really think the answer is huge because I think it there is a lot of training involved. There is a lot of work that we have to do beforehand and constantly in our lives. If we want to be creative individuals and put ourselves in a position to, you know, receive new ideas and act fast on new ideas, we have to do a lot of work on ourselves. Um, and so for instance, I think the biggest killers of creativity are fear and tradition.
MariOh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So fear, you know, what do people think about me? How are people going to respond? What if I fail? Uh, what if I become an outcast? What if I lose my job? All of those things, right? That requires a lot of work outside of the idea. That requires a lot of self-work. Tradition, also, because if we are a person that's um doesn't like change, or we're a person that says, hey, that's the way it's all always been done, we're gonna have issues. So we need to work on those things in ourselves and also be able to guide people through facing the fear and tradition that they are going to encounter. So that's so that's really the big answer is I think it takes a lot of work outside, and most of it is self-work.
MariThat makes a lot of sense. And I you're the first person to really talk about that tradition piece and how how challenging it can be to invite a new way of doing it while keeping the the foundation intact, so to speak. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I and I think, you know, there's part of me that looks that enjoys killing sacred cows. Um and but I have to be really careful because I know that it's it's not simply because people don't like change that they have a hard time with it. Sometimes there are stories attached to whatever it is you're trying to change. And when you challenge the thing that already exists, you start to challenge the story and the people connected to those stories. And so you need to be wise and ask a lot of questions. What is behind this sacred cow?
MariOh, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Because somebody somebody told me once that behind all tradition are the ashes of logic, which is a poetic way of saying the idea made sense once upon a time.
MariRight.
SPEAKER_00So you have to figure out why before you take it down aggressively.
MariYes. Oh, that's I have I feel like I have fallen into that trap of not getting to the why before wanting to dismantle and rebuild or something.
SPEAKER_00So oh gosh, I've done it so many times. That's how I know that. I know it from screwing it up so many times and messing with so many people's lives and saying, why can't they just get it? And then going, oh, wait, the problem's me.
MariRight. I'm the one creating it. Yeah, I get that. I'm curious. You know, you have the gig to live podcast. Where did that start? What was the driving force behind that? And tell us a little bit about the gig to live.
SPEAKER_00Gig to live podcast started because I simply like to podcast. I always like to find something to talk about. But really, uh I asked myself, I've done various podcasts over the years. And uh, because I am drenched in the music world right now and in contact and relationship with so many people, I started hearing the things they were talking about, questions they had, problems they were uh encountering, and I thought, you know, this is a perfect platform. I I I have things to talk about, I have things to share. I don't have a corner on the market of it, but I certainly know some things. So that's how it all started.
MariI want to help how is life as a gig? Because oftentimes people are like, we gotta do the hustle, we gotta step, you know, leave the whatever stable job, and you go into a gig market. What is that experience and how sustainable does it feel to you and to others? Do you feel? Do you think?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's a really interesting question. Mostly an older generation, and I'm not saying this because it's ageist, I'm saying because of the environment they grew up in. Most of the older generation who grew up thinking you are successful when you get a good job with a good company, with a good retirement plan, with good benefits, uh, that that's that's the way to go. But uh, if you talk to anybody today, you know that people in huge corporations with big dreams are being laid off through emails.
MariRight.
SPEAKER_00And so what is sustainable? Uh pretty much nothing. I mean, we can't count on anything. So I say that to say I think the same kind of you know, uncertainty uh uh is in a corporate job as it is in the gigging world. With that said, you go into the gigging world and you start ground zero with nothing. How am I going to put this thing together? Who am I going to talk to? How am I going to fill the calendar? How am I going to figure out my base rate of pay? Uh, what will I allow myself to do and not to do? Um I mean, there's a lot to think through. Just like it's it's a business. You're running a business. Yeah, there's an incredible amount of freedom that comes with it. You know, nobody puts baby in the corner. No, nobody tells me what to do. And there's also uh, you know, when the evening is done and you come home after your gig and you run through Taco Bell and you're sitting in your chair at home exhausted, uh, you're immediately thinking, what do I do next? Yeah, you know. So there is a romantic side of it, and there is a side that is so difficult. Worth it? Yes, difficult, absolutely. So that's a big part of the podcast is me trying to help people understand, you know, don't sugarcoat this. Do not, this is not American Idol. This is not the um like you gotta work it, and you have to know who you are. Yeah, you have to, there's a huge part of identity in it. Um not only for paving the way forward, but you know, what happens if I lose both my arms? Then what? When I can't play music anymore.
MariRight. Right. Oof. That I love that you bring that up because I definitely Is such a huge part, I believe, of creativity as well. And if we don't know who we are or who our create, our creative self or creative voice is, we're really kind of lost in that tornado of fear and tradition.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Again, it gets back to the work on us, right? We have a lot of internal work to do as creative people.
MariYeah, and non-creative or seemingly non-creative people. We all could use the inner work time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think it's awesome how you just said uncreative, because I was thinking the other day, there's no word for the opposite of creative.
MariOh.
SPEAKER_00Except uncreative or non-creative. Like it feels so weird.
MariYeah. Seemingly uncreative. You know, it's like we all have creativity, but it's how we choose to engage with it or use it or see it in ourselves. Is I think those kind of the self, uh, what's the word? Um the veils that we put on or cover. Because we all are we all enter this world with creativity. And over time, it gets, you know, taken away on some level unless we hold on to it. So I I'm curious, as someone who has such a long creative life, what's your earliest memory of being creative?
SPEAKER_00I think it's those things that you know most people think of, you know, the painting and you know, writing poetry and stories. And I although I was really um I took it next level as a kid. I was always like entering the contest, you know, the poetry contests, the singing contests and the talent shows. And um, so I do those are my earliest memories. I do have a really early memory too. I think I was about nine when I built my first fort, tree fort. And I uh the neighbor gave me some lumber and we had some things laying around. I built a three-story fort. Oh my gosh. And uh I wanted to be innovative with my fort, so I created a restroom on the bottom floor and then cut holes in the second and third layer so you could actually use the porta-potty from the top. That's what nine-year-old boys.
MariYes, that's amazing. I love it.
SPEAKER_00So, and by porta-potty, I mean, you know, it was a five-gallon paint bucket of my dad's. So, you know, yeah, yeah. But hey, nine years old, let's make it happen.
MariI love it, that is incredible. Well, for people who are interested in being gig musicians or flexing their creativity in similar ways that you have in your life, how would you encourage them to embrace their creativity, use their creativity, express their creativity? How would you go about doing that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a fun question. I really could talk about this all day. I even I wrote a book about this very thing uh called Becoming an Idea Mentalist. And the I think the subtitle answers your question even more. It's um the unusual perspectives and practices and rituals of idea people. So creativity is uh it's an it's a it's a verb, right? It's it's it's in action, ideas in action. Uh and I think that every little bit of information that I could share with you, every story, every scientific insight, every piece of history, every bit of wisdom, all gets down to uh uh experience and community. I think those are the two biggest things that foster creativity. So uh new experiences, I think, are super important, you know. And there's little things you can do every single day, driving a new way home, take ordering a new thing off the menu, listening to music you don't listen to, reading something you don't usually listen to. Those things actually help uh, you know, foster ideas and creativity within us. So little things. It doesn't have to be the you know, save up to go on a cruise kind of an experience. It's just approach your day with what am I going to learn new today? What new conversation am I going to have? What new person am I going to meet? What new store am I going to go into? Um, so I think there's some real practical things like that. Uh, you know, there's some more long-term things that we invest in, things that take some time uh to help us, you know, foster our creativity. Um, I think a big one for anybody uh saying, I'm just not creative, I'd love to be honest, is to get over the idea of failure being a real thing. I think failure doesn't really exist. Failure is is a construct in our own minds, and it really only exists because we're comparing ourselves to something else or somebody else, or the idea that we have in our own mind of what it should look like. So things don't work out in life, like maybe uh you lose a job, uh, your marriage ends, you know. That's not failure, that's just that's the end of something, and we we choose then as creative people to learn from those endings in order to have new beginnings, and we need to just get over that just that fear of failure is paralyzing.
MariYeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if we can get to a spot in our lives where we're more, you know, ready fire aim. Ready, fire aim is a fun way to live, but you know, it takes some work.
MariIt sure does, yes, absolutely. Well, John, this has been such a treat getting to chat with you. I have one last question. What does it feel like in your body to be creative?
SPEAKER_00It depends on the day. You know, sometimes it feels like a huge burden, honestly.
MariYeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm not only wearing through my own emotions, but trying to manage uh, you know, things that are happening around me and uh walk people through some things, and then sometimes it's incredibly enlightening and freeing and full of energy and life, and it's just so rewarding. But yeah, it depends on the day and the situation.
MariSure, I totally appreciate that and know exactly what you're talking about. So thank you so much for taking the time to join me. If people want to learn more about your podcast, your books, the work you have out in the world, your music, how could they go about doing that?
SPEAKER_00Thanks for asking. I think the easiest way is to go to johnvoles.com, J-O-H-N-V-O-E-L-Z.com. You can read about my books, uh, or at least my latest book there. There's links to the podcast. Uh, you can see my entire music calendar. It's it's all right there. That's the most central spot. And then, of course, I'm on all the socials. You know, we do good things.
MariYeah, well, I'll put links in show notes so people have easy access. And thank you again for taking the time to join me. This has been such a treat.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Mari. It's been great.
MariI have to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. We are at streaming creativity.