Episode #43: Tami LaSance - Attorney | Human Resources & Contingent Workforce Advisor | Program & Project Manager

Tami LaSance, in-house legal counsel at HireArt joins Hiring University to share her insights on the importance of worker classification, advancements, and potential risks in AI among other topics. 

"I think more companies aren't as concerned with the risk of incorrect worker classification because there has not been a huge verdict or decision on this since Microsoft and it may take somebody being another example. I think there's also so many things going on that it just isn't a priority to pursue these types of claims."

- Tami LaSance

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Transcript

Jon Beck: [00:00:00] What's up, everybody? Welcome to episode number 43 of Hiring University. It's season three. Today, we're going to spend 20 minutes or so with Tammy LaSance. Tammy is labeled on LinkedIn as contingent workforce leader. She also happens to be an attorney. She's worked in the enterprise space at household names like Riot Games and NerdWallet.

, worked with MSPs, Randstad and Magnet, and now, Chief Counsel at Higher Art or Counsel at Higher Art? In House Counsel, yeah. In House Counsel, which for those of you who don't know Higher Art, we're going to tell you about them today. They are an employee of Record Company plus more. Tammy, welcome to Hiring You.

Thanks so much for 

Tami LaSance: having me. I'm excited to be here, 

Jon Beck: Tammy. You're great. You graduated from Loyola Law School. You're practicing law. And then what happened? You woke up one day and said, I'm going to get into contingent labor staffing. I'm guessing that's not how it happened. 

Tami LaSance: It was, there was a middle period that some, some bumps through there that, I practiced law.

I did that for about four, four or five, I think seven total years. Cause I kind of took a [00:01:00] break in there. And I went from practicing law, and then I went in house with a former financial company called Bear Stearns and was doing compliance for them, compliance and legal, and that was great. And then I ended up, I was talking to a friend of a friend, and she was a legal recruiter, and we just started chatting, and I was working market hours, so I'm on the west coast, I was working like 6am to 4 basically, and getting yelled at by brokers, telling them they couldn't make trades they wanted to make, and It was kind of an unpleasant experience.

I learned a lot and it was really challenging and that was great But it was also really challenging in not so great ways And I ended up talking to this friend and I said wow your job sounds so much better than mine And she said well, we're hiring so I went to talk to her manager and that's when I became a legal recruiter So I focused exclusively on the legal space mostly attorneys, but kind of any other position in a law firm We've had librarians secretaries paralegals, whatever And I did that for a while, and then I went to a boutique company, and then realized I could do [00:02:00] this on my own.

So I had my own business for about six years, and really enjoyed that, and got to a point where I didn't really want to be my own boss anymore, and I didn't want to build a team, and, and create, you know, I didn't want to be the boss. So I started looking at other jobs, and that's when I found Riot Games, and that was, that just started as like a hybrid of legal, I was doing contracts for our contingent workforce, suppliers for Direct hires.

I was managing some recruiting stuff. I ended up managing relocation. I had immigration for a hot minute. And then somebody said, do you want to manage our contingent workforce? And I went, okay. And I was handed a spreadsheet of like 300 names. Here's our contingent workforce. And I've had to figure it out.

And we had a partner at the time we were working with target CW and. Lee Pacheco was there at the time and he was our contact. So Lee pretty much brought me up and taught me everything I needed to know to manage that account and build a contingent workforce program for Riot. I 

Jon Beck: did not know about the connection with Lee.

That is [00:03:00] very cool. 

Tami LaSance: I have met 10 years ago. 

Jon Beck: Yeah. That's wow. Well, it's a lesson, , for all of you listeners out there, for you kids out there, it's a small world in a smaller industry. So, always do right by those around you, even if it's not,, you know, direct, business or a relationship.

Tammy, I have to imagine that your legal background has served you well, obviously in the role that you're in today, but in all those other contingent roles, because there's a myriad of things that, are always under consideration that frankly, a lot of staffing firms and MSPs just don't do a very good job or don't really understand.

Is that true? 

Tami LaSance: It's, It's a complicated space. Yeah, I think my, my law degree has definitely helped me be a better employee and helped me help companies better, right? Knowing what should go and shouldn't go on a contract and knowing where we need to look to make sure we're compliant or what are the, what's the low hanging fruit that we can fix, right?

There's always something changing in the space, whether it's just California changing the rules or independent contractor space has had some updates lately. So whatever it is. I love being able to kind of [00:04:00] explore the how that will actually work in practice and then making that work so that you keep yourself apprised of what's going on updates you need to make in the space and also running your program in a way that's compliant and avoids as much risk and liability as possible.

I assume the companies I've worked for have appreciated that part, even if they didn't hire me 

Jon Beck: Yeah, no question. , what let's park the, risk compliance and specifically California second. Before we do that, tell us a little bit about higher art. Full disclosure, URS i's partners with higher art. We have a great relationship, the higher art labels themselves as an employee of record platform, but there I, there's more to that story.

Tami LaSance: Yeah, we're doing a lot of great stuff. We've got a lot of great clients, several clients working in the AI space, and that helps us kind of move ahead in our space and build out our program and our practice, and we're doing, we've got EOR, we can do, we do contractor vetting, IC vetting, we're dipping our toes into international lately for clients [00:05:00] that have those needs that we can support in certain areas.

It's obviously a time to build out a full international practice, but by supporting our existing clients, we're able to do that. And it's just a really, the platform is a really great way for managers, companies to manage their own contingent workforce and have full visibility and transparency on your independent contractor workforce.

Eventually, SOW, which, you know, is always that amorphous area that no one knows what to do with. But we're, we're able to provide full service to our clients. It's in a platform that's easy to use. It maintains all the information in there. It's really easy for the workers to use the time cards all go through there.

So it's similar to some of the other systems that you might see, but a bit more robust and we're building it out as we need it. So that's the other key factor is we're not locked into a system we can build and grow and adapt to our client needs. 

Jon Beck: Are you complimentary or competitive to some of the VMS technology and some of the MSP [00:06:00] programs that are out in the wild?

I think 

Tami LaSance: both, right? And I'm sure we've all heard Chris Brower's, uh, I'm going to call it a tirade. Brower has said some things about VMSs and, and he's not wrong. I'm not as bold enough to say them, but I think there's, I think we're both, I think in some ways we can be complimentary. We do have clients that are using Been layer B line and we're, we can work with that.

That's not a problem. But it also gives us an opportunity. I've worked in enough systems to know kind of the comparisons between those, those systems and what we're doing so we can build out our system to maybe avoid some of those kinks and make it more robust, but partnering with those, with other companies.

To integrate with what they're already doing, right? Obviously, we think we can handle the whole thing and we'd love to do that if you still want to use your existing platform, whether that's binley or Something else we can work with that. But, you know, it makes it a little bit harder. Obviously, our models contemplates that you're using our platform.

 [00:07:00] That's how we like to do it. But we can accommodate if somebody wants to do something else. So we can be the full package or we can work with whatever you're working 

Jon Beck: with. One of the things that I appreciated about when I first met Chris and Nick and the way that they positioned the company was there was a spirit of inclusiveness.

And in our industry, more often than not, we think in very binary terms, and that's, I think, driven by protectionism. It has to be. It has to be one way through an MSP or, or, or nothing or through a tool, self managed or nothing. And given how difficult it is to find talent, I think the enterprises that are doing the best are the ones that are using different modalities and different channels to find talent.

And as a staffing provider, reveal the world the same way, let's find different channels and not, be afraid of them. Which is again, something that our industry doesn't really. Good or bad job of right when job boards are first, it's like staffing is dead. Recruiting is dead. And now it's AI and it's recruiting is dead.

And like, that's not the case. Um, [00:08:00] it's different and you have to adapt. And I, and I appreciate the, the flexibility and the business model that 

Tami LaSance: that provides. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And that, it gives us an opportunity to understand what other companies are doing too, and understanding the client's needs, right?

If you think you're happy in whatever system you're working with, let us help you with. One small piece, right? We've got larger clients that we're talking to where probably can't take on their entire contingent workforce It's too it's too large for us at this point, right if you have a huge workforce That's not us.

We're kind of the small to mid market and we'll get there But I think it's maybe up for debate whether we even want to tackle those Giant ones, even at a future state, right? That's a different, it's a different market. So our role is more catering to that. What the smaller client mid and smaller clients need.

There's definitely options out there for those large scale models. And I think that's what the typical BMS will do, on the smaller scale. And I think particularly in the tech space, it needs more flexibility and more agility to, to accommodate our [00:09:00] clients, cause that's that middle market that we're 

Jon Beck: looking at.

Agreed. Let's go back to risk and compliance and I want to talk specifically about California. There was some new legislation that was introduced just last week, which was eye popping, on a broader scale, maybe nationally, and I guess it's, it's driven by a lot of the state legislation as well, too.

But where is our industry most exposed right now? Where's the great or if there are a handful of places that were most exposed? Is it? Yes. Worker classification. Is it pay rates? You know, what, what's your sense and where is it hottest right now? 

Tami LaSance: For me, I'm going to always going to say worker classification.

I think that independent contractor space, particularly as we see more legislation in this area, we see more rulings, we see more cases coming up. I think it's, it's one that's been around, it's been around forever, right? Independent contractor space is not new for anybody. Microsoft screwed it up a while ago and we're still recovering.

Right. So I think. We're still trying to get back, [00:10:00] trying to figure out where that actually sits. And I think there's a lot of pushback in a lot of industries still, right? My experience at NerdWallet, those, in the writing field, I think, I've learned this. We have a team of writers at NerdWallet, we hire a lot, hired a lot as independent contractors.

When we get down to vetting, some of those, you know, some of the workers in that space who are working with other large publications, New York Times, other publications, and in the industry, that's just not common. People are freelancers, they write for multiple places, and that's just accepted. So when we started bringing, as a fintech company, we have to bring that compliance piece in, right?

Maybe the writing industry is willing to, Look away and trust that you're doing it right. But in the FinTech industry, we can't just look away. We have to do the vetting. And that was, that was a change for a lot of workers. It was a change for a lot of managers. 

Jon Beck: Why don't companies take it more seriously though?

There's so many that continue to kick the can down the road. Some of it's because they just don't think that [00:11:00] the penalty is going to be severe enough. Some of it, it's about cost savings. You know, I hear over and over again, every conference I go to, regardless of what the intended topic is, it always circles back to worker classification, and then you hear sort of this, you know, malaise of, well, it's so hard to do, and how are we going to categorize, and it's going to be expensive, and do we really care?

Why aren't companies taking a harder stance? 

Tami LaSance: That's a great question. It's potentially because no one has seen a huge verdict or decision on this since Microsoft and it may take somebody being another example. I think there's also so many things going on that it just isn't, you know, I think the assumption is that it's not a priority to pursue these types of claims, right?

Microsoft got tagged because it was a really extensive problem. I think companies think it's something that can slide under the radar or it's not, it's not, it's a risk. And. You have to assess the risk and decide where you're gonna [00:12:00] assume that risk and where you're going to avoid it. So for me, I think if you can avoid the risk of misclassification, 100%, you should do it.

I don't know why you wouldn't. Um, again, there is cost, there is change in, in changing your systems, changing your process. Updating your managers on thinking about it differently updating your company updating the workers, right? A lot of workers don't necessarily understand why they if you do the full vetting and they don't qualify They don't necessarily understand because they've always been doing it that way So I think it's a challenge of companies aren't prepared to make that switch the workers Don't know enough to know that.

And I think that's exactly the problem, right? The workers are like, fine, I'll be an independent contractor. No, you look like an employee. You should be getting benefits. You should be getting all of these things. I think they just think it's a low risk area and it has been for a long time.

But my feeling is if the risk is there and if there's enough people doing it wrong, it's going to, someone's going to get tagged. Yeah, I don't want it 

Jon Beck: to be me. That's exactly right. [00:13:00] You do not want to be the poster child for this problem, and I think most of the change where we've seen in programs that are doing something about it has been driven by it.

dollars, which is typically the case. And they realize that there is significant savings, especially the publicly traded companies and in a down market the last couple of years, they say, Hey, maybe we can actually save some money by doing this. I know, by the way, we'll be more compliant and mitigate our risk.

Um, but I think you're right. I think it's going to take a, a, a big tectonic case or movement. Yeah. It's everybody's attention. Let's shift topics and talk a little bit about A. I. Because you have to, if you're talking technology, it's wonderful, but it's dangerous. Do you see a I as well in a broader sense as.

Opportunity for innovation and growth in our industry or and or is there risk with? We're effectively now cutting and pasting so much of what we do right job descriptions contracts where we're not thinking about individual case studies or each business model in a unique way. What's your take on it [00:14:00] from the legal standpoint?

Tami LaSance: There's a ton of legal seminars out there, all of which I want to attend about AI in the legal space and how that works. So that I intend to get much more educated on and be happy to come back. I think as a general rule, I think, I think it's like any new technology. It, there's a huge potential upside and some potential downside, 

there's definitely some downside if we don't know what we're doing and downside to copy, you know, running your resume, doing your resume through AI, and maybe it didn't get it right. So I think there's. There's still that element of human intervention that we have to use. And that's exactly what these AI companies are continuing to work on, right?

That modeling and helping it understand. I think there's huge upside. We, you know, our team has used it for editing resumes, revising resumes for some low profile jobs where you wouldn't necessarily have a resume, but you need one to provide and really quickly and easily that way, and it makes a huge difference in their competitiveness [00:15:00] in the field to get a job.

So we've, if, as I think, as long as we're using it mostly for good, but I also think there's an education piece that we should all be aware of and try to understand so that we, know how to use it and what the downfalls are. Guardrails, 

Jon Beck: guardrails, guardrails, guardrails. Yeah, guardrails, for sure. , and the best example that I've heard or metaphor when you think about innovation and history.

Was, somebody said, imagine if you were a NASA scientist working on sending a man to the moon and you were working on your slide ruler and somebody came along and said, Hey, check this out, it's a calculator. You're still doing the math, but you're doing it faster. But you have to, you have to have critical analysis and be thinking and whatnot.

And I think that's such a good example because we see it all the time where. We'll get resumes or job descriptions that we, you can tell it's obvious they've literally been regenerated however many umpteen times and it doesn't speak to either the person through what the job does itself. And that's laziness, quite frankly.

[00:16:00] So more to follow. Yeah, it's 

Tami LaSance: not, we want to not do, we don't want to do everything faster, right? We need to, it's not just about faster. If you can make it better, smarter. Make your resume more detailed that way and get words that you didn't necessarily think of right resumes are hard. It is it's and that's Something that I've had all through my career.

Cause I'm always happy to help friends beef up their resumes or revise it. And I think that's one where it is incredibly difficult to speak about yourself and I think of a resume as like, this is my brag sheet. These are the cool things I've done. This is these are the accomplishments I'm proud of. That I think matter to show who I am and what I bring to the table.

 So again, human interaction is still going to be a better option than throwing it through AI. Someone who actually knows you and can provide that feedback. It's a great first step and I think it's incredibly helpful and I think it's fun to play with.

 So, yeah, there's good things to come, but I think we need to also just be mindful of how we're using it. The 

Jon Beck: word I've latched onto [00:17:00] is authenticity. Yeah. Finding ways to be authentic within the volume of information and data that's available to us.

Yeah. And to interpret it as such. 

Tami LaSance: And I think that's important in this industry too, right? That piece. 

Jon Beck: Yes. I, I probably get 10 calls and emails at least a week from AI vendors that are trying to convince me that I don't need humans to do the work that we're doing anymore. And my argument is you need them even more.

So now to interpret and to, and to cut through that. So a 

Tami LaSance: lot of stuff can be automated, but the human piece is always going to have to be part of recruiting, hiring, managing people, and that's, and I think that's the value that we add to those clients, you've got someone telling you, use AI, you don't need people.

No, we need people. I need the people I have and they do good work and we're going to, you know, build this out from here, but it's, it's going to take some time. 

Jon Beck: Jamie, let's go to, some speed round questions. Uh, are you a podcast listener? 

Tami LaSance: Some, yeah, not, not a ton, but yes.

Jon Beck: So other than hiring [00:18:00] university, what's your favorite podcast? 

Tami LaSance: Um, my, my favorite fun podcast right now is called just Jack and Will. And if you are a will and grace fan and watch the show, So, Sean Hayes and Eric McCormick do a podcast where they're going back and watching each, they watch each episode and then they do a podcast on it and they have a guest who either was a writer or a guest star on the show or somebody who, you know, maybe even the prop person or the wardrobe person.

So they interview somebody every time, they'll go through the episode and like, talk about the, the weird references, cause there's a lot of Contemporary references and political stuff and just like stuff that is so sensitive to the time It's really fun to listen to and then when I've if I need to know stuff I have a political podcast I look at mostly , or they listen to mostly through crooked media They do like a daily news podcast and a pod save america Which is a lot of political stuff to try to stay informed in yet another scary space 

Jon Beck: Yes, love it.

Will and [00:19:00] Grace way ahead of their time. We'll definitely 

Tami LaSance: have to check that out. And it's fun to go back and see kind of how, um, how much they push the bar and they talk about that. How in the writing room they would, they would intentionally make it more risque to know that then they would get kicked back a notch, right?

And sometimes they did that and didn't get kicked back. So then they just went with the risque version, so it was really groundbreaking at the time. And even now watching it back, it's interesting to see the terminology they use then that like, they say certain words and you're like, Oh, we don't use that one anymore.

That's right. But yeah, it's, it's interesting to watch it. And now considering the time change time, it wasn't 

Jon Beck: really that long ago. Um, yeah. Tammy, what's your biggest pet peeve

Tami LaSance: specific to our industry? Uh, well, I was going to. Say, people that don't know me versus I, that falls into this industry. Right. That's a good 

Jon Beck: one. I think grammarly, it's free. Download it. [00:20:00] 

Tami LaSance: Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm a bit of a grammar police. I like proper grammar. I like a word written sentence. That's, I think that's how I ended up in law.

But creative writing space, 

Jon Beck: there's no excuse today to not be grammatically correct. No. In the spell check. Zero, none. You drown the Grammarly. It's free. 

Tami LaSance: Although I do think there's that there's an interesting kind of age generation gap where communications are different, I think, in upcoming generations, and I don't know, I'm still a fan of complete sentences, punctuation, capital letters, but I hope that doesn't change.

I think there's some. 

Jon Beck: I'm with you and I don't want us to sound like, you know, the old people get off our lawn, but yeah, it makes a difference and it certainly makes a difference if you're a hiring manager and communication is important to you. Uh, Tammy, what's your favorite saying? Do you have a favorite saying?

Tami LaSance: Uh, is it a work appropriate [00:21:00] one? Go for it. F around and find out? 

Jon Beck: Perfect. We'll take that. If I, if I threw you in the way back machine to the time when you graduated either college or law school and you could tell yourself one thing based on all your experiences today, what would that one thing be?

Don't, 

Tami LaSance: don't have a plan that you're, that you're not willing to stray from. Don't think it's going a certain direction or That it's got to go this way, have the, have the flexibility to think outside the box. And I've learned that since, but if I'd known that a little earlier, I think, you know, certain things could be different.

But I think that, that being able to just think creatively and come up with solutions for things. And have the confidence to, to just stand behind them. I think is something that I could have used a little bit more early on. 

Jon Beck: That's excellent. Somebody told me later in my career, I [00:22:00] wish Somebody told me earlier that there's really never a straight line to success, whatever that means.

And the analogy that they used was airplanes when they fly from point A to point B, very rarely go to a straight line. They course correct based on weather, based on right traffic, based on the things that are happening. And that is so true of life as 

Tami LaSance: well. So, yeah, that flexibility piece. And, and I think I've honed that over the years because particularly in this space, there's.

A little bit of black area, a little bit of white area, and you've got that giant gray space in the middle, and you have to decide where you want to operate in there, and where you're comfortable, and what you want to try doing, right, and have that adventure, have that, have a sense of adventure to it, and be willing to try those different things.

Excellent. 

Jon Beck: Tammy, we're past the 20 minute mark. Time flies when you're having fun. Thank you for being on the program. Promise me that you'll come back and we can compare what's happened a year or so later. And for our listeners, what's the best way for them to find you if they're interested in, in connecting with you or with higher, [00:23:00] 

Tami LaSance: uh, LinkedIn, find me on LinkedIn and, or email me first name dot last name at higher art.

com. We're happy to answer any questions. I'm happy to chat through continued workforce questions, law questions, anything. Terrific. And 

Jon Beck: we will tag you, on our LinkedIn post as well, too, for our listeners. Thank you for tuning in. Continue to stay hungry, stay positive, stay safe, stay curious, and we will see you next time on Hiring University.

Tammy, thank you. Thank you.