Episode #54: Ryan McNair - VP of Workday VNDLY Services - Helios Consulting

What a way to close out the year! Our final episode of Hiring University for 2025 just dropped, and we’re finishing strong with none other than Ryan McNair, VP of Workday VNDLY Services at Helios Consulting.

Ryan has forgotten more about VMS platforms than most of us know, or however that phrase goes.😄 Point is, the guy’s been in the game for nearly two decades, and it shows.

From VMS innovation to AI hype vs. reality, self-managed programs, integrations, data transparency, and even the Broncos’ Super Bowl dreams… this conversation delivered. 💥

Ryan and I break down:

•  Why the VMS world has exploded with vendors
•   Where companies underestimate complexity
•   Why SaaS and integrations are the real game-changers
•   The truth about “AI” in VMS right now
•   What the next 5 years should look like
•  … and of course, some career wisdom we can all use heading into 2026.

If you touch contingent labor, technology, or talent strategy, or want a smart, real, no-BS perspective, this one is a must-listen.

For more Hiring University episodes tune into your favorite podcast player or visit us at www.ursusinc.com

Transcript

Jon Beck: [00:00:00] What's up everybody? Welcome to this edition of Hiring University. Today we're joined by Ryan McNair, vice President of LY Services at Helios Consulting. Prior to Helios, Ryan worked. He's a lifer in the VMS space. worked at Vin Lee before it was Vin Lee Workday, and then at Field Glass before it was SAP Field Glass.

I think that's right. And a number of other leading system integration companies, all specializing in VMS integration. Ryan, welcome to the show. 

Ryan McNair: Thank you for having me. 

Jon Beck: So we're gonna spend time talking about VMS and innovation, what's working, what's not, and what you think is gonna happen next.

But let me start by asking you a question, maybe sort of a trick question, see if you know the answer to that. I did some research when we was prepping for this conversation, and was astounded to see the number of VMS vendors offering solutions in the market today. Do you know how many there are out there right now?

Ryan McNair: Oh my goodness. Trying to guess at this, I think, but I have. VMS vendors. Mm-hmm. Gotta be in the thousands. Thousands man, or [00:01:00] tens of thousands. 

Jon Beck: Not quite that many. 

Ryan McNair: staffing agencies or if you're talking about MSPs? But 

Jon Beck: that's fair.

Ryan McNair: Okay. 

Jon Beck: That quote unquote, compete with the Beeline Field Glass, VIN Lees of the world. Yes. Yeah. My first question to you is, 'cause that's a lot, right? It's sure is. and the estimate was that the market is anywhere from six to $8 billion, which isn't small, but it's not huge either.

Why? Why do you think there are so many? 

Ryan McNair: I think it's a great question. I think the barriers to entry historically have been relatively low. People come into this industry, I mean, having been at the, at ley startup days, I even see it from, from them and the co-founders. they made it work. but I think a lot of people see the same thing.

They go through the process, they utilize VMSs, they hire and they say, Hey, this is not, not a great experience, or we can do this better. and just coming in and putting it together, starting with very niche thoughts and, and ideas about what they could do differently, [00:02:00] whether it's healthcare specific, whether it's light industrial specific, whether it's just, Hey, we can, we can do this.

Better. I think a lot of people come from the talent acquisition, hiring side of the world and think they can do it better. 

Jon Beck: I think you're right. because I've never met anyone that says, gosh, do I love my VMS platform, or I love my a TS platform.

everyone's searching for more and there is no perfect system. is it fair? Would you agree that in the last five years and change the most significant technology advancement in your space is offering a true SaaS multi-tenant platform versus a standalone on-premise? Or are there others that you can point to that have really driven, you know, breakthroughs of, of barriers that were, that existed beforehand?

Ryan McNair: I think you're probably right on there. I think the SaaS versus on-prem is probably the biggest change over the years. my experience is as much as I have been in the industry, you know, there's five or six of [00:03:00] the big tools, the major players in the market that I've really had my most experience with.

So go into the peripheral of that and seeing kind of some of the innovation and some of the things others are doing. I'm not as aware of. but I think you're probably, that's the big change. What do you think's 

Jon Beck: What's the big, you know, barrier to get over that you hear constantly, from your clients?

Ryan McNair: That's another good question. right now, I think anything that can make companies be able to run their program more efficiently and more internally, is what we see 

A lot of questions about. running the program without an MSP, without the experience really making it as much of an online shopping experience where you don't need the training, put the onus on the hiring managers and line managers to run the tool as much as possible. that sort of thing is really the next level of, advancement on here.

that I'm, I've been asked for what we can do and what we've seen from a lot of customers recently. 

Jon Beck: I think part and parcel to that [00:04:00] also is the lack of appreciation for the complexity of integration. we hear, we deal with a lot of startup companies here in the Bay Area that are on high growth trajectories.

We're talking to talent leaders and usually when they hit the 2,500, 3,005,000 employee mark. Start to really take a look at contingent labor and then default to, well, we're gonna buy a VMS tool and we're gonna implement it and we're gonna run it ourselves. And then you fast forward a couple months after they do some evaluation and one of two things happens.

They either really commit to it and hire people either internally or like yourselves that are gonna do the integration. Or they bail out and say, too hard, too complex. I don't have sponsorship. I'm just gonna bring an MSP to run this thing.

Ryan McNair: Yeah, we see it all the time. 

Jon Beck: is there a profile or characteristic of company that you would, from a recommendation standpoint, say one path or the other is better for them? 

Ryan McNair: I am, I don't know if I'm a [00:05:00] minority or not in this, to be honest. I am a big proponent of the MSP space, and bringing in whether you're hiring an internal PMO the most times I see that being successful is bringing people from the MSP world to run your internal PMO.

That experience. As much as companies think that, Hey, we have hr, we have ta, you know, we have the, you know, we can hire people, we can train them. Coming into this industry terminology, being even a very simple piece of it and the starting point and, and going from there through, you know, full process, through integration, automation, everything.

It's just a world that is different, I think, and more complicated than these companies think it's gonna be. we get a lot of companies that think, hey, one or two people can run the show. or yeah, we can hire and build our own staff, but I definitely think. I, again, I'm a proponent of bringing in the experts, to run programs.

I definitely see with some of the newer technologies, VIN Lee being one, there's others on the market as well, that the ease of use is there. The automation, depending what [00:06:00] your technology platform and landscape is. For example, Workday. With ly, it's a little bit more of a no-brainer. The ease of connection and integration is there through a lot of the native connectors, cloud-based, APIs more available.

That sort of thing does make it easier. So the profiles of the companies that I do see more successfully running their own programs are just. Very small companies, just frankly, I mean, it's, it's really size based, just, from what I tend to see, it's very smaller companies, fewer resources.

Potentially one module when you start increasing, Hey, we have true staff augmentation and project based work staff, or SOW module, starts being very complicated for a small, especially Gen one company to run themselves. So I guess going back on that, the size of the company matters and just their, frankly, their experience in the space.

So Gen one companies, I never really recommend that they run themselves. Even if they do something like bring on an MSP for the first [00:07:00] year, first 18 months and get up to speed, then as you progress, maybe you're changing VMSs and you've learned a lot and you have built that internal knowledge base, then your internal tribe can kind of take over that.

But for Gen one programs and anything larger than 50 or a hundred workers, I tend to see managed, is better. 

Jon Beck: I also think that companies of that size that maybe don't have the maturity and resources that bring in an SP for Gen one, then more often than not succumb to, they just get comfortable.

Right. My MSP is running it. I'm assuming that I'm getting the best that I can. It's not a knock on an MSP. and that's kind of the narrative that the industry has set forth of how it's done. But I do think you made a comment, in your last answer that there is a trend because of ease of use for more self-managed systems.

And I think the third criteria that dictates a lot of that is how well they know. Their technology platform themselves. Those companies that have, you know, as they've grown up and built themselves up, those that are [00:08:00] very aware and have already invested in a platform that's designed to scale, probably have more confidence to build their own and manage it their own.

For me, I'll answer my own question. If it's my company and I continue to scale, I don't think anybody's gonna know or care as much about what I'm doing than I am as the stakeholder. And so why wouldn't I manage it themselves? But again, you gotta have the right people and you, you know, plenty of them that are vin, the customers that are big, big programs, multi-billion dollar companies managing it, but they have the commitment and buy-in from the top.

So it's an interesting inflection point right now because. It is getting easier to implement. There's costs associated in both scenarios. but we're seeing, especially here in the Bay Area, more people trying to go self-manage as well too. 

Ryan McNair: yeah, we're definitely seeing that.

and two things kind of jump out from what you just said there. One, I absolutely agree with your first point there. the better. Understanding, of their internal landscape, the more scalable that is, of course, that's gonna make it easier. But even, you know, peripheral to that or, or is how [00:09:00] siloed are they?

And I know nobody wants to admit, no company's gonna come in and say, Hey, we're we run very siloed. But having the companies that are more successful with this, there's a lot of open communication, a lot of, you know, cross, decision making and, and stakeholders between procurement. AP technology, hr talent acquisition, all these different groups, as you know, I mean, there's lots of, lots of folks and lots of resources involved and lots of different PLA technologies in the whole process When you start putting it together to manage this external workforce.

and frankly, the full-time employees as well, and total workforce. so the companies that are very siloed and we see that all the time As we get into deployments and see, we recommend very strongly as we get into those, to open those lines of communication, bring the stakeholders and make sure even if your organization is set up with a super strong IT org.

That might be able to integrate and understand, you know, the IT landscape. If they don't understand the HR side or the TA [00:10:00] side of the program, it's not gonna be enough from my experience as well. 

Jon Beck: I'm assuming that Helios has a number of engagements where people start off on their own and then realize, Hmm, I think we need to bring in some additional help.

Yeah. are there one or two things that are kind of the tipping point for them? Like, is it compliance? Is it data? are the things that you see over and over again where people reach a point like, oh man, I need help. 

Ryan McNair: Frankly, it's the day-to-day just operations. a lot of the companies think they can make the initial.

Decisions on compliance, on approvals, on rate cards, things like that. From a deployment perspective, you're definitely gonna get better. with the program if, The people in the program are the ones running it, like you said, instead of coming, you know, going outsourcing and say, coming and learn our program, if there's HR leads, TA leads, et cetera that are in place, they're gonna do a better job of understanding a total strategy and setting it up.

But then I think they think that after that [00:11:00] setup is complete, the job is done, or at least the job goes down from there, which, and I don't wanna scare people away here, but it doesn't, that's really where it starts, the deployment. It takes time, takes money, it takes resources, but it's not difficult running the program afterwards.

What are you gonna do once those initial rate cards, once your vendors are selected? Once your initial integrations are in play, what happens six months, 12 months, 18 months later to continue scaling, to continue growing, optimizing? We see so many programs that we deploy. and again, whether I was with Helios more recently or just over almost two decades of, of deploying VMS programs, it's, it's that 12, 18, 24 months later where they say, Hey, now we're stagnant and we haven't upgraded.

We haven't optimized, we haven't refreshed anything. We're not looking at the new enhancements, the VMS, you know, release notes. Things like that. we got our adoption upfront. People are using the system now. Everybody has questions. How many intake calls can we support for different recs? How many password resets can we support?

[00:12:00] every part of the process that says, Hey, now we're set up. Now, how do we continue to improve, continue adoption, continue, to make the program better? And that's what we see. That's what I see a lot at least, is the initial deployment. Initial setup. Things can be going very smoothly. And then if you don't bring in the experts, or at least have very dedicated people that understand the landscape and are actively engaged, your program's gonna go stagnant very fast.

Jon Beck: Yeah. True of any adoption, cycle for technology, probably more so. Right. Workday has made a couple of ai, acquisitions of late, How do you, first of all, assuming that you would agree that there's, hype versus real use cases out in the market, how do you separate and distinguish between the two?

Ryan McNair: Between hype and, and real. Is that vaporware and real? 

Jon Beck: Yeah. A lot of AI washing happening right now, right? 

Ryan McNair: Yep. Yeah, we're watching it happen. it's a really interesting space to be, so, just as you said, you know, Workday very specifically does have, everything is AI focused, [00:13:00] right? We go to any conference, any new update, any new meeting, release notes.

Everything is AI focused. Workday and otherwise throughout the IT world right now, from a vin ly and VMS specific, I think a lot of people, and I'm not an expert in ai, but I, I'm seeing the use cases, a lot of the use of AI as a word in VMS right now. I don't, I don't, I believe a lot of it is vaporware so far.

I think it will continue to grow. I think people will realize. What's not real and turn it into something real. The ideas are good, but whether it's actually just kind of machine learning from resume reviews, to decision wizards and guides from a VMS standpoint, I don't really see a lot of true AI in the Vin Lee space right now, and a lot of the big players that are really, in my opinion, making a huge difference yet.

Though some of the ideas seem, as AI progresses and as they continue to use it, could lead to it being real. But I do believe a lot of what I'm seeing and a lot of what we hear in the VMS world about [00:14:00] ai, so far hasn't, to me proven out to be super beneficial or helpful with really anybody's jobs within.

Jon Beck: Fair enough. So let's look at the clock. If you could go back in time, 'cause you've been doing this for roughly 20 years. If you could redesign the framework of the V-M-S-M-S-P model from scratch, what are one or two things that have carried forward over the last couple decades that you would say, Nope, we missed it, we should do it this way.

Ryan McNair: That is a really interesting question. I think, some of the more recent VMS startup, have done some of this. But I definitely think, if you go back and think about the VMS space, we're about 35 years old, truly, in the mid nineties or, 95 ish, I think the field glasses, IQ navigators, the first big players in the market came up and, 

Wasn't quite on-prem. It was, you know, SaaS still, but it wasn't cloud native. It wasn't easy to [00:15:00] integrate those sorts of things. I think the open APIs, the integration space to me is the biggest part of it. Building a system that is built for customers to run and administer the program first, kind of as, purpose built.

to not utilize an MSP or an outsource partner would be something, to look for more options in the ui. more easy starting points for administrators as well as users, you know, to get in and use, frankly. That's a really good question from, building it. a couple people from the VMS world that I was working with all joked about and started putting down on paper some, you know, we could do this better too.

Just like from your question before, low barriers entry, you have an idea, you think you can do it better, you have some technical resources that can build something, start putting the plan in place. but a lot of the things that we had joked about and thought about back then as what would be better. you know, everything, reporting datasets a lot easier to get to.

that was stuff that was more segregated, longer go in these systems. And [00:16:00] a lot of the companies have upgraded and enhanced, or the newer companies have built that in from the start.

So. I know there's tons of innovation to still come and you know, by no means is this, done innovating. But for right now, I do think some of, like Vin Lee and others have come in with that cloud first, mobile native, ease of use. 99 plus percent of the configurations directly in the UI training available, run more like e-commerce rather than old fashioned, you know, VMS system makes a lot of sense.

Jon Beck: I'll answer my own question from the supplier side. 

Ryan McNair: Yeah. 

Jon Beck: It would be data transparency. It is still, to me, is a mystery how so many of the programs that we operate isn't able to provide, not even, it's not classified sensitive data, it's just, it's data that would be helpful for us and for them, frankly, like when we show up to a QBR, we run our own data sets from our a TS system, but that's only a slice of the picture.

'cause it's only within what we're doing in the account. [00:17:00] And I can't tell you how many times the program manager say to us, oh my God, this is, can you send this to me? This is invaluable. My first question is, don't you have all this stuff? Like, I can't see it. so I think sometimes that gets lost.

and I also think it, it goes back to the roots of one of the reasons why MSPs were created was to, you know, ferret out bad behaviors between suppliers and and buyers. And with that, you had disintermediation between those two, and that was lack of trust. And so then it was like, we're not gonna share data with you and.

The best programs that we're in typically have the best data and they share it. but sometimes it's like pulling teeth and, and in the world that we live in today, that should be self-service dashboard. Press a button real time, show it to me. Yes. And that future, that doesn't exist today. so, I guess now I'll ask you the question going forward.

Yeah. If you could look into the crystal ball five years from now or longer, what does it look like and how much better is it? 

Ryan McNair: I think the data part is, I see what you're saying and I agree with you for the most part. I do think, and I'd be curious, I know we [00:18:00] don't have full time today to get all the way into it, but I would be curious about, some specific, more examples.

'cause definitely 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, the data wasn't transparent at all. It was pulling teeth to get the data that you needed out. I think with, More powerful integration with more powerful self-service, reporting. everything in the system, in a LY world or beeline or field guys can be basically pulled back out via reports.

It's more of the onus on the program to make sure the right data is being captured. So whether it's just the native fields being used, right, or if there's, you know, customizations, unique items to pull, and then integrate, you know. Consolidate, aggregate, however you need it, using tools, whether it's a workday prism, whether it's a power bi tableau, 

More systems get into play. So I do think, to your point, five years from now, hopefully sooner than that, two years from now, the internal databases, the ability to. Not only report [00:19:00] the data back out, Something's in the system. We pull a report, pull it back out. But to have VMS tools start implementing ideas of those actual, analytics tools and more powerful systems all in one tool, rather than, Hey, we need to send this info to Power BI and then create dashboards with that, let's say directly in the VMS itself.

I'm hopeful that that's a way we go in the data direction with the VMSs, where they start incorporating more powerful dashboarding tools. Yeah. Into the VMSs themselves, to your point. Exactly. Where, program leaders and stakeholders. Normal users, day-to-day, line managers, whoever it might be, vendors in the program can get in.

We like to use the 32nd test, with Helios when we're talking about vin ly and other VMSs. Say, Hey, within 30 minutes your users should be able to jump in the system, know who's working, where are they working, when are they ending, you know, all these questions about your external workforce. But instead of going to other tools that have, that data has been integrated to, [00:20:00] it needs to be easy in one place.

Jon Beck: It's the presentation layer really that we're talking about, right? Yes. I mean, it's easy, accessible, clearly understood, and I appreciate that. I'm not the end user buyer, so my vote doesn't count for as much. but we use other software tools that we share with third parties and clients that have dashboards that we can send a link to and give a full picture of our security profile and like all sorts of information.

Brian, let's, ask you a couple questions about you and your own career trajectory over the years, and everyone gets this question. So I'll start with the way back machine. we're doing that again, but this time, think about, if you were to go back to the point in time when you were first starting your career, what one piece of advice would you give yourself, then with all the experience that you have sitting here chatting with me today?

Ryan McNair: Love it. And now I've listened and I knew this question was coming. it kind of is the same as the quote to me. I'm not a big quote guy. I don't know a whole lot of quotes, but the one thing that I've really learned as I've gotten older and aged in this is I really like the quote, how you do [00:21:00] anything is how you do everything.

I just think that digging in and being the best at what you do, not only in front of customers on calls in front of clients, but when you're practicing, when you're training, when you're prepping, all of that adds up. And it's really important to me to make sure even when nobody's watching, you're doing things right.

Well, I'm speaking for myself that I'm doing things right. being prepared, putting the work in, so that you can come out the other end. When it is live, it's a big sports comparison. but I think it translates well to the business world too.

I would have gone back and said, Hey, early in my stage, don't let some of the few things that let me excel early in the business, lead me to being lazy at other things behind the scenes. 

Jon Beck: Love 

Ryan McNair: it. 

Jon Beck: You are our 54th, 55th guest. That's the first time I've heard that answer. It applies to everyone.

for those we're not on video, but behind you we see John Elway frame jerseys and all sorts of Denver, Bronco memorabilia. How [00:22:00] confident are you this year the Broncos making the Super Bowl? 

Ryan McNair: Not at all confident. Very cautiously optimistic, but not confident. hey, we're winning close games, and that's a sign of a good clutch team.

Good coaching. Clutch quarterback jeans from Bo Nicks. I'm still worried about the offense, so we need to put together on both sides of the ball. but if we continue to win close games, I think we can make a good run. 

Jon Beck: You're on the right trajectory, and I appreciate the conservative answer under promise, hopefully over deliver.

That's right. Ryan, if our listeners wanna get in touch with you or Helios, what's the best way for them to do that? 

Ryan McNair: LinkedIn, is the best for me. I'm on it all the time. I'm not a big poster, but I do read a lot and I do answer people. I try to answer everybody that messages me directly.

you can find me, Ryan McNair on LinkedIn. helios.consulting is our website. It's not.com. People do get that confused, but Helios Consulting, absolutely reach out. a lot of information, and links on the website, and contact for us. 

Jon Beck: Awesome. And we will make sure to put that in the notes, when we post the [00:23:00] episode.

Thank you for coming on the show and, giving us a glimpse into, the world of VMS. We'd love to have you back in a year or so and see how much progress we've made on this front. And, to our listeners, as always, keep grinding, keep the faith, keep safe, and we will see you next time on hiring you.

Thanks again, Ryan. 

Ryan McNair: Thank you, John.