Charlie Brackley And Steve Phillip, Mental Health At Work

This conversation delves into the critical topic of mental health in the workplace, featuring insights from Steve Phillip (The Jordan Legacy) and Charie Brackley. They share their personal experiences and professional backgrounds, emphasizing the importance of open discussions about mental health, the impact of corporate responsibility, and the need for supportive environments. The dialogue highlights the alarming statistics surrounding suicide and mental health issues, urging companies to take meaningful action rather than merely ticking boxes. The speakers advocate for genuine engagement and training to foster a culture of care and understanding within organizations. This conversation delves into the significance of vulnerability in leadership, the duty of care that managers have towards their employees, and the importance of creating a supportive workplace culture. The speakers discuss the need for frameworks to enhance employee wellbeing, the challenges of measuring engagement, and the universality of mental health issues. They emphasize the necessity of having difficult conversations and applying training beyond the workplace to foster genuine connections.

Takeaways

• Mental health conversations are vital in the workplace.
• Personal experiences shape our understanding of mental health.
• Suicide rates are disproportionately higher among men.
• Companies often fail to grasp the connection between mental health and productivity.
• Creating a supportive work environment is essential for employee wellbeing.
• Isolation in certain roles can exacerbate mental health issues.
• Intent and tone matter in conversations about mental health.
• Training is necessary for effective communication about mental health.
• Corporate responsibility should go beyond superficial measures.
• Leadership plays a crucial role in setting the tone for mental health discussions. Vulnerability is a strength in leadership.
• A duty of care is essential for managers.
• Investing in employee wellbeing yields significant returns.
• Caring for employees should be simple and genuine.
• The workplace culture impacts employee engagement.
• Mental health issues affect everyone, regardless of rank.
• Difficult conversations are necessary for growth.
• Training should be applicable in all areas of life.
• Creating a safe space for conversations is crucial.
• Cultural integration of mental health discussions is vital.

Sound Bites

• "We try and make it far simpler than it is."
• "Be strong enough to be vulnerable"
• "Caring about our people is simple"
• "We have a duty of care"
• "For every one pound invested, four pound return"
• "It's about the culture and the environment"
• "We need to talk about things that are real"
• "Navigating difficult conversations is essential"
• "If it's true, it's probably true everywhere"

To find out more about Guy Bloom and his award winning work in Team Coaching, Leadership Development and Executive Coaching click below.

The link to everything CLICK HERE
UK: 07827 953814
Email: guybloom@livingbrave.com
Web: www.livingbrave.com

Transcript

Guy Bloom (00:00.222)
smile or we fall over off the table that's all good. So listen let's get into it with so much to talk about that I'm kind of almost like so much to do. So listen welcome Steve, welcome Charlie to this episode of Leadership Bites. It's fabulous to have you both here. I know who you are I'm just going to set the tone a little bit just before I get you to just introduce yourselves as individuals.

Charlie, I met you through doing some work with Microlyse and we had a conversation that led us to sort of say, hey, this is something that we're both interested in when it comes to that whole mental health space. And you said, I know somebody and that's why we've got Steve here as well. the conversation, the tone of this is a conversation around mental health. is predominantly geared around the workplace because that's where...

Charlie Brackley (00:43.428)
Absolutely.

Guy Bloom (00:58.59)
I operate and Charlie, that's where you are as well. It will drift and turn, I'm sure, as we go. We don't need to hold ourselves too strongly. But I think it's a conversation that is, it is always relevant, but it feels particularly relevant right now. So that's where we're going as a conversation. And maybe Charlie, if I could just start with you, just to, hey, who you are, what you do for a living, and that'll just set the context for why you're here in the room with us.

Charlie Brackley (01:28.74)
Sure. Well, firstly, thanks. Yeah. Thanks for setting this up, Guy. You know, it's a, it's a pleasure to have this conversation and let's see, see where it takes us. I guess, you know, who am I? Well, in my best days, I think I'm a pretty normal bloke. You know, some other days don't feel quite the same, but I'm working in technology, but particularly within the logistics sector for an organization called Microlyse. You know, it's a wonderful place to work. Whilst at work, you know, generally I'm...

My role is heading up the global account management function and we've got some very broad and diverse teams there focused on delivering value for our client base. Outside of work, my dad, my husband, love cricket, love all kinds of sports. And I guess the topic of the conversation, say again. Well, yes, there is some golf clubs behind me, yeah. They have been very static for a while.

Guy Bloom (02:15.65)
You like golf as well don't you? You like golf as well don't you?

Charlie Brackley (02:26.5)
Just to the right, there's a Sheffield United shirt as well. So I'll get a mention in for those guys. But yeah, look, that's a brief intro and I guess we'll get into it, but a real interest in, I guess, setting an example, leading to a degree conversations around mental health because they're vital. You know, I've got two young boys and I want them to grow up understanding that it's good and okay to have these kinds of conversations. So that's kind of me.

Guy Bloom (02:55.522)
Thank you

Steve Phillip (02:57.934)
Yes, Guy, thank you for inviting me along today. Yeah, I'm someone of slightly more mature years now. No sign of retirement yet, but spent almost 25 years in senior management in the automotive industry in the UK and in North America. When I returned to the UK, got involved in consultancy still in that industry before deciding to leave a well-paid director's role.

in a leadership and management training company at the time of a recession around about 2009, what better time to leave a secure job. Set up my own coaching practice, having a real interest in coaching, personal life coaching and business coaching and fell into social media, interestingly enough, and LinkedIn as a platform and by...

the nature of my interest in that subject and its ability to network with other business users. Within 12 months, I'd set up a company called Link to Success, which was a consultancy and training company around social media. And for the next 11 and a half years of my life, that's what I did from companies from Harley-Davidson and Toyota to smaller SME businesses. And then my life, it changed dramatically in December of 2000.

19 when I was delivering a social media workshop for International Motors Group in Solihull and I received a call to tell me that my son, my 34 year old son Jordan had taken his own life and as you can imagine that kind of message changes your world completely. And the short version of the story because I'm sure we'll get into more as we talk today was that within seven months I founded an organization called

Jordan Legacy and as a registered community interest company, CIC, and now we focus on how we can reduce the numbers of suicides in the UK.

Guy Bloom (05:02.764)
So thank you for that, Steve. I appreciate it and value that introduction a lot. Is that focus predominantly, is there a male-female kind of balance here? Or if people think about that, where does the Jordan legacy put its focus? it across the board?

Steve Phillip (05:21.558)
Yeah, it is right across the board. I understand the question as well, because we know statistically 75 % of all suicides are male. And yet the stats also tell us that more women actually attempt suicide and experience depression. So our job is to look at these headline numbers and say, what can we do in a practical sense through collaboration with others to get those numbers down on the basis that most of the evidence.

and research tells us that most suicides are preventable.

Guy Bloom (05:55.606)
So as a topic, I'm just super alert in the world that we live in to talk probably more from your own truth and your own experience than presume that you can talk from somebody else's. So I have to kind of just pay attention to that. what got my interest in this? Well, I think it's because I haven't had that experience within my life of anybody taking their lives.

But I do do work in industries such as facilities management and construction and this kind of space where that rate of suicide amongst men being say four times higher in men is again four to six times higher in the construction industry. So I'm super alert to the places and the spaces that I work and how real that is, particularly in an environment which is, but then by definition,

predominantly male. So it's just a very interesting sort of set of truths that I kind of recognise within myself is why I've got that interest. So I guess what's the first question or the first bit of conversation is maybe if we talk about companies, intellectually I don't think you can argue with the numbers and I think it would be a very interesting conversation if you did, but in truth, what are companies doing?

in terms of is it understood enough? Is it intellectually everybody gets it guy, but there's a lot of lip service. It depends where you go or actually in truth, if you're going to take a distribution curve of all the companies in the UK, literally would like to hear that sort of conversation and just what your thoughts. Let's start with you, Steve, because you've got that more global experience.

Steve Phillip (07:46.254)
Yeah, I think all of the above really Guy, from what you said, it's a very much kind of a postcode lottery to a large extent in terms of the commitment from companies to mental health and wellbeing as it gets lumped into as an umbrella term. You know, we know the numbers of poor mental health in the UK are costing the UK business world around about £51 billion.

every single year and that's an increase from 49 billion in 2019. So the numbers are saying that actually mental health issues are costing businesses huge sums of money and yet in a lot of cases there are many companies who think creating a psychologically safe workplace is really all about making sure there are a few mental health first aiders in place. We've got a bowl of grapes on reception when people come in and we hold a yoga class.

once or twice a month, that might be a little bit too harsh perhaps, but the reality is I don't think for many companies we've really grasped that connection between the mental health issue and wellbeing of employees and its positive impact, if we get it right, on profitability and performance as well. So I think we've still got a long way to go to reach that point.

Guy Bloom (09:05.708)
So I'm going to kind of bounce between the two of you a little bit, because I think Charlie, you're in an environment that maybe could set the tone for the truth that you experience through actually, do you know what, Guy, if I'm factoring in my people or the people that we engage with and their environments, and why maybe people listening to this, who maybe work in an office, maybe they work at home, maybe, you know, people will resonate with this from different places and spaces. But what is it that you see that

creates an awareness for you around this topic.

Charlie Brackley (09:39.642)
I think it's really interesting because I think there's almost two angles and you know from some of the work that we've done together Guy I think the second is potentially more important. The first being yes there's you know there's a lot of practical stuff that HR teams and HR departments can support with in terms of those you know without being flippant those bowls of grapes and those yoga sessions which you know shouldn't be discounted because I think there is an importance to that but I

to a degree say that the importance of that isn't necessarily having that available, but rather setting the tone that it is important to the business in the first place. know, at MicroLize, we have a very, very conscientious culture about the place. We do a lot of work and spend a lot of time and attention ensuring that we do feel it is a, you know, not just a psychologically safe space to work in, but...

but in the broadest sense, a place where people want to and enjoy working. I think moving on from those kind of practical areas, I think it's all about the leadership in its non-management sense. And Guy, forgive me for using some of the stuff that we've worked on, but I think it really is quite distinct. You can manage mental health awareness, but actually it's incumbent on everybody that's in the business.

to be aware of it, to discuss it and to bring the topic into the light, into discussion and make that okay. I've got some personal experiences, fortunately they haven't been to the extent of suicide, which we're all very grateful for, but I have strived to.

And I know again, from the conversations that we've had, Guy, you bring this into some of your work to be vulnerable, to be open, because it's really important. And I don't have, you know, necessarily the wide, wide logistics industry view. But what I observe is that, especially at the front line, where again, within transport and logistics, the statistics are shocking in terms of the...

Charlie Brackley (12:00.706)
suicide rate of HGV drivers, of van drivers, of warehouse workers. They are another level up from what is already a shocking statistic. And I think a lot of that, you know, potentially comes from the working environment, but are we really paying attention to that when you do get face-to-face time with the guys that are actually, you know, on the coal face? So I think, yeah, to me, there's two elements. There's the setting.

the scene, the setting, tone, as being open as a manager, as a leader, so that people feel more open as well as the practical things that should be in place to support where it's needed.

Guy Bloom (12:38.306)
And that environment, being a lorry driver, being one of the environments and the places that you could say, regardless of who's in those roles, those roles carry a kind of isolation potentially or whatever it is that you could maybe just kind of give an indication of.

Charlie Brackley (12:57.272)
Yeah, and you know, I am speaking from a observational perspective rather than having done the role, but my observation is that the working environment for an HGV driver is continuously stressful. You know, the average motorist isn't thanking the HGV for being on the road. You know, people get annoyed, right? Road rage is a thing and...

these guys are out there driving alone for hours and hours on end. And do know what then happens? They arrive at a distribution centere to deliver their goods and they're stuck in a porcelain cabin for three hours whilst the lorry's tipped. There are some very good examples of businesses that we work with directly that do that very differently. There's, you know, I...

I know whether I should, but I will mention one client of ours Maritime specifically who have put a huge amount of investment into all of their depots. You know, there are fantastic facilities for those drivers so that when those drivers get to the depot, they've actually got a nice environment to go and continue to work from. There are many, many examples where that is the complete opposite. You're shoved in a corner. So you've just spent several hours getting somewhere and then you put in a porter cabin. Well, I think we could do better than that.

for the guys that, you know, mean, COVID brought it to life, it? know, HGV drivers were, you know, had the designation of critical workers or whatever the right term was. And yeah, nothing happens without them and we could do better for them.

Guy Bloom (14:36.524)
Okay.

Guy Bloom (14:40.514)
I'm interested in... I heard somebody once use the phrase, sometimes I feel lonely in a room full of people.

And I understand that some roles are inherently isolated by the definition of their structure. And then there's something about, well actually some aren't, but what is it then about if all things are true, the role may not inherently help you because of the nature of its structure, but also the role may technically be very...

team orientated, it may be very much in that dynamic. So actually the role or the structure of the organization isn't the reality that's creating an infection. There's something going on for the individual that could be triggered by a whole host of truths, you know, from their life, their background, their history, their reality they're trying to deal with at home through to who knows what. So all things could be true. So what is it that organizations possibly have to pay attention to?

or to give that actually would allow people or would help that scenario because again if it's the role okay we can pay attention to structure and system but actually it may also have very little to do with that that may enhance it and make it and make it worse but i'm interested also just in that systemic perception of how do you you know is it about spotting it is about no that's you know how can we spot something that people often hide

Charlie Brackley (15:58.126)
Yeah.

Guy Bloom (16:12.076)
you know, how do you actually bring that out? what Steve, this I think really falls into your space around what is it that has to happen or what is it that organizations can do if they were gonna say, we're probably doing as much as we can. What would that look like?

Steve Phillip (16:28.598)
Yeah, it's really interesting as you were kind of positioning this question Guy, know, lot of things you said are the truth, that it's not necessarily the environment or the isolated space of driving for hours that's creating the mental health crisis in that individual or the decision, you know, to end their lives. It's a whole host of things, socioeconomic issues, biological issues, personality issues, relationship breakdowns, gambling addiction, a whole range of

things that are weighing on that person's mind and although not familiar with the logistics industry, I can imagine having those thoughts in my head as I'm driving for miles and miles on my own, not having an opportunity to talk about those issues with anyone. So the environment that doesn't help, that's for sure. And I think it is for companies, I think too, you mentioned spotting the signs, I think there is a real element of training needed within organisations because

There are some signs that you can spot, particularly if you know your employees and know your staff well, there are things you can look out for. suicide prevention particularly is very different to suicide intervention. So the training I just talked about is very much like I've seen something, I'm going to go in and have a conversation. Prevention is everything you do to prevent somebody from getting in to that situation in the first place.

And there are a range of things. think if we look at the process within most organizations, not just transport and logistics or construction, but if we look at the way that historically we've conducted employee assessment processes, sorry, assessment's not the right word I'm looking for, but the annual appraisal, yeah. Usually they're best they're every six months or so. They will often focus.

Charlie Brackley (18:16.878)
Yeah, praises.

Steve Phillip (18:24.898)
predominantly on performance within an organisation and they may touch a little bit increasingly so maybe a little bit on the wellbeing of that individual. So I think first of all what we've got to do is have these touch points more frequently. They don't need to be as lengthy or as convoluted as some appraisals are but we often in the work I used to do in leadership and management training talked about having progress meetings and kind of a more of a conversation between manager and employee.

But an important part of that conversation was what we would call their whole world of work. And their whole world of work is what goes on outside of work as well. And really understanding and asking that question, how are you doing with real intent on wanting to know the answer and answer scheme in a very different way. So I think there needs to be more frequent touch points, particularly with people working in isolation to check on

how they are doing generally from a wellbeing perspective. So I think that's one of the things that needs to change.

Guy Bloom (19:29.772)
Yeah. So there's an intention thing here, isn't there? There's the having something in place that is the system, which is a tick box. It's like a, just if we just said a performance review, it's your intention around a performance review that makes it valid or worthwhile. If your intention is just to get through it, you didn't get any value from it and I didn't, but if your intention is to genuinely have an input. So everything is about intention.

Really. And when you ask that question, how are you doing? One of the things I talk about is tone and the delivery of that. So if I say to you, how you doing? It's a little bit like, well, it's a relatively, it's an answer I don't really want to, it's a question I don't really want an answer to. But if I go, how are you doing? And you go, yeah, fine. And I go, are you, is everything okay? It's that there is something, but I've got to want the answer.

That doesn't mean there is anything going on, but I've got to want the honesty of an answer and be willing to want to go there to potentially hear something I may or may not be expecting. But actually my intent is to be of service. My intent is to catch anything that might be a rolling ball for you to feel that you're okay to talk to me about it. So when you talk about that kind of training, is it partly mindset? Is it partly...

technique it feels as if it's a little bit of both going on there.

Steve Phillip (20:57.734)
I think it is and really interesting you use the word intent, is a term I've not heard used actually in this context before, but I think you are absolutely right. It's the intention that I want to hear the answer and the way I deliver that question will encourage you to be more forthcoming with it. I think it is intent, it's probably mindset about I am genuinely interested in the wellbeing of

my team and the people that work within that team. But there are some techniques, there are some skills that many managers who, let's face it, are often employees that have performed particularly well in their lives who then risen to the ranks of management based on their previous roles and their success, but very rarely given any kind of people skills and management skills. So I think it's a little bit of both.

Guy Bloom (21:52.514)
And it's also then about, and your thoughts on this as well Charlie, this sense of it being a conversation. And I wonder how people are very, sometimes people are very nervous just about that, what they might consider to be in being invasive, going into places where, you know, is it my, you know, do I have permission to go there, et cetera? And there is this word, which I want to be careful when I say this word woke.

you know, which again, I almost kind of pull a funny face when I say it because I think it has good intentions, but it gets hijacked. So there is something about caring for people. There is something about having a sense of duty for people. But there is something about it not becoming an overarching narrative that gets in the way of us actually continuing. And it goes too far and it starts to handicap us. And actually people then don't trust it because it's a caricature and it's too forced.

And so this weird balance in a commercial setting of having care, putting it on the agenda, having it as a conversation piece and getting that balance of it not becoming, God, is this all we're talking about? Versus, no, we should be talking about it. And I don't necessarily have the answer for that, by the way, but I'm just interested in that balance that needs to exist in that space. And I don't mind which one of you answered that.

Charlie Brackley (23:17.421)
Yeah.

Guy Bloom (23:19.746)
You

Charlie Brackley (23:21.338)
I don't think there is a silver bullet there. think in many ways it comes back to exactly what you were saying before, Guy, and what the intent is there, is the intent to tick a box so that we appear to, yeah, I'll try, you know, to, you know, the woke nature of it. You could apply the same question across lots of things that people, you know,

positively or negatively refer to as woke. You you think of diversity within a team. Well, are you actually looking for diversity in your team because it generates a, you know, a breadth of opinion and different perspectives that you haven't thought? Or are you looking at diversity because you feel that you should? And I think the same could be applied to being genuinely curious and interested about your respective teams, your peers, frankly, even, you know, your leadership.

health in all of its sense. And there was a few things that you said in setting up this part of the question that really almost made me sort of sit back slightly in terms of that being alone in a busy room and I think slightly going off on a tangent, but within my realm, is a sales.

realm, there's this sort of cliché that salespeople are these bombastic caricatures of gift of the gab and all of this sort of nonsense and frankly it is nonsense. And so I know some very, very successful people who don't operate like that and who can feel lonely in a busy room but that are very, very effective at their roles.

The other thing that, you know, I was stood with a friend at the back of our village shop and they asked me, because of some recent events, you know, are you okay? I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. And it was like, no, are you okay? And the intent was to actually ask the question, not just to be polite. How you can train that is a difficult question. To Steve's point, I think you can train the techniques.

Charlie Brackley (25:46.052)
But fundamentally, you've got to be bothered in the first place.

Steve Phillip (25:51.566)
I think it's really interesting as well staying on this theme for a moment and coming back to your point Guy about, know, can we take this too far sometimes? I think often what's happening in companies at the moment, we're looking for the problems and bringing in a solution to the problems we don't really know exist. And I can think of a conversation I had just this week with a company that invited me to go in and deliver a talk on suicide awareness and suicide prevention to the employees.

And asked them, said, I'm just interested in why you've invited me in. Is it because you've had an experience of this? Is there any history, you know, within without going into details of this? And she said, no, we just felt it was the right thing to do. I didn't ask the next question, but the question that was in my head was who thought this was the right thing to do? Because if if the question a good manager asks of an employee is, how can I help you do your job better?

and that opens up a conversation, then I think we've got a better chance of helping employees do their job better. If we say we're going to put on a training course this week on eating disorders or suicide prevention or mental health or whatever it might be, I think again, we're kind of filling tick boxes.

without actually engaging the employees and seeing what they need personally. So I think it's far simpler that we try and make it sometimes. think it is about sitting down with that employee and going, my job as a leader is to get things done through other people. Well, I can only achieve that if you are able to work and be the best self you can bring to work. How can I help you do a better job? And I think that's a

darting point for, as you say, Guy, a conversation to be had.

Guy Bloom (27:44.492)
So this is about an integrated approach. This is about not sitting it out. I mean, if we're doing it as an education piece, okay, it might be a standalone moment of training or development, but that could be for health and safety, that could be for anything. But there is something here that as a manager of a team, leader of a team, whatever vocabulary we want to use, I would ask questions that are around performance and what's getting in your way.

Is there anything I can do that it might be me? Is there anything around you that's causing, you know, in essence, I have a resource and I want to keep it, if it was a car, I want to keep it tuned up and I want to keep it serviced and I want to keep it operating at its best. So I want to understand the environment that it's working in and I want to know. So actually if I maybe, yes, it might be one of the things I'm paying attention to, but if I make myself accessible, if I...

make it that I'm when you're with me. It doesn't mean that we won't have hard on his conversations, but you are safe in the context of no judging, no shaming, no blaming. And that and that allows you to offer me something maybe in confidence or maybe you'd like, but whatever it is. And and that could be around in insert topic here of which one of them is

Charlie Brackley (29:05.368)
Yeah. Yeah.

Guy Bloom (29:05.438)
is my mental health or what's going on or I just realise you're asking me to go into that client to talk about that particular product and I'm embarrassed to say I don't really know it as well as I should. It almost insert topic here is it safe to tell you? Does that seem reasonable?

Steve Phillip (29:24.21)
I think it does. I think it absolutely doesn't. It's interesting, isn't this term that's thrown about a lot now this creating a psychologically safe workplace. What does that really, really mean? I think it's a topic that a lot of leaders are latching onto now that we will create a psychologically safe workplace by putting these things in place and ticking these boxes. But actually it isn't the leaders who determine.

whether you've got a psychologically safe workplace, it's me and you turning up to work and feeling that in any context, in any situation, if I have a concern or something that's really bothering me, that I wouldn't think twice about being able to share that with my line manager or with HR or whoever. And if you've created that kind of environment, then you've got a chance of having much more productive team, but also a much more open and honest culture as well.

Charlie Brackley (30:22.17)
Yeah, I couldn't agree more with everything that's been said there. guess one sort of addition or side thought is that whilst it is all about the individuals and their intent and their belief and interest in wanting that, there is no getting away from the fact that these kind of behaviours are set from the top of an organization. Now, it doesn't mean they have to start from the top, but if they aren't embraced and...

and believed and actioned, you know, from the top to the bottom, what could have been very well intentioned ambitions can quickly dissipate when the day to day gets taken over. So I think it's important to at every level of an organization to be, you know, to be curious, to be vulnerable and to set that tone.

Guy Bloom (31:13.504)
I think that's something I've come to understand that if you fear, if you see vulnerability as weakness, then you don't want to go there. But actually, if what you really offer it as is, we strong enough to be vulnerable? And that doesn't then mean we need to have the caricature of, are you all right? But if I just say, are you all right? You know, no, I mean, ask it how you like. And if that's your voice where you go, are you talking a particular way, then of course offer it in that way.

But some people have gone on a course and then they manifest a kind of characterization of deep care that I actually think actually makes certain people pull away from it. Because guess what? They feel as if it's an affectation, it's a manifestation of some training that you've had. And I don't necessarily want to have a conversation that's doing something to me. I want to have a conversation with the human being. So there is something there that actually...

Charlie Brackley (32:06.211)
Yeah.

Guy Bloom (32:09.836)
Training is a beautiful thing because it gives you self-awareness and if you didn't know how to do a thing, now you do. But it has to be something, and I think this is where companies can either get taken over by an agenda of, know, it's all about our people and it's all about care. But actually, how about, let's just keep it simpler. Let's just care about our people. Let's just pay attention to our people. And I, an individual, I know I don't care that much about people I don't know that well, but I have a strong duty of care.

and I would argue that my strong duty of care would show as much care to you who I don't know as to somebody that I do know that I actually care about. Does that resonate when I say that? That sense of a duty of care so it doesn't have to be about caring because if that's not your way or you don't know them that well or maybe that's just not the way you're wired, okay, but then you do have a duty of care.

Charlie Brackley (32:48.026)
Excuse me.

Steve Phillip (33:04.056)
Yeah.

I don't think it's a really interesting distinction there, Guy, because as a manager, if I have a duty of care, it's kind of my responsibility, it's my role now as a leader, and that maybe sits more comfortably with a lot of maybe less touchy-feely leaders as well. I gave duty of care, I get that, it's almost got a military connotation to it. I always wanted to be in the military.

Guy Bloom (33:14.86)
Hmm.

Steve Phillip (33:30.126)
But that makes a lot of sense because you will then approach things in maybe a more methodical and processed way, but nevertheless you are still displaying that you care for your employees. At the end of the day, if we look and say, what are the key building blocks of a company in terms of its productivity, its performance and its profitability?

The studies are out there, Deloitte have done these reports for goodness knows how many years now that say for every one pound invested in employee wellbeing, on average companies see a four pound return. So the numbers are there. So if you are prepared to have a duty of care for your employees, then you're gonna get paid back. I think it's fundamental to, morally it's the right thing to do. Let's get that in there first of all.

It just makes absolute business sense. Why wouldn't you do that if it's going to enhance the profitability and performance of your business?

Guy Bloom (34:32.628)
I think there's something, I like this. For me, I can apply craft when I think it's my job. And again, if I've got X amount of people that I come into contact with, if I introduced you to 20 people at a party, by definition, you're going to have a distribution curve in the way that you engage with them, the way that you connect with them. But also there are things about, I may not have that much exposure to you. So sometimes I don't know you well enough to pick up on things that I might do if I was closer to you.

But also as a manager, very often you might be showing me a version of yourself that is at worst guarded, but at the very least careful because you are my line manager. So I'm always alert to that fact, even if we've known each other quite some time. But a duty of care says, I'm going to ask you these questions. I'm going to check in in a certain way because actually it's my role. And actually I can be very caring through the duty of care.

And I think that gives certain people a permission to do what some might do by character or by instinct or by trait.

Charlie Brackley (35:39.854)
Yeah.

Steve Phillip (35:42.1)
It's really interesting. I'm currently part of a group that's reviewing a process that's taking place at the moment with British Standards Institution at the moment. And what we're working on is a BSI standard for suicide prevention in the workplace. It's been approved by BSI. It's been worked on. The first draft of that will come out in April.

with a view to getting this out into the workplace by September this year. Now you imagine if a BSI standard in suicide prevention comes into place, there's a process and procedures you can follow now. That of course leads to ISO as the next logical step there. So for those that aren't intuitively in tuned, I'm not quite sure they've got that right, but then.

Then if we can present them with a framework and a process to help them show that duty of care, such as a BSI standard, for example, then by the very nature of that being in place, we should improve the quality of employee care.

Guy Bloom (36:44.254)
I think about it like I might be a mechanic in a garage and I don't know the owner of the car I might not it just gets given to me by the boss I might not care about it then that much but if I'm a professional I'll do a flipping good job on servicing that car and so there's something about the culture and the environment that drives that Charlie

Charlie Brackley (37:03.066)
Yeah, it keeps coming through in these type of conversations and is also that, you know, that willingness to try, I think on all sorts of different training. And I think one of my acts can be applied to whatever topic we're talking about. Craft is something that is developed over time and you will get better at, but the principles of what you're trying to achieve, as long as you are genuine.

in what you are trying to achieve, people will forgive you for not getting the wording quite right, for asking the question the wrong way, for not articulating it in the perfect way that you've been shown how to do in the training. having that belief and confidence that you're doing it for the right reasons and then going and trying, I think people will appreciate as much as the seasoned professional who really does know how to have these conversations and have them well.

particularly within this context, I just feel that whether trained or not, asking the question and if you've got it wrong, you've said it wrong, say, look, I might have stumbled over this and not asking it the right way. But the reason I'm asking it is because I'm actually bothered. I want to know what's going on because I care. And I think we can all get caught up. And I think the higher up the tree you go, the more you have

the pressure on yourself to feel like, right, well, well actually I'm just as much of a novice at having this conversation as my team leader, as I am, as the executive is. But if we don't all try, you don't need to be perfect. Just go and have a go.

Guy Bloom (38:46.826)
And that becomes a cultural thing, doesn't it? That says, as an organization, what is it that we actually care about? And, you know, we need to be commercial animals and we need to... All these things are true. But in this jigsaw puzzle that is us, and it's a common theme, it's easy to say, you know, where do our people sit? And if it's on the front of a brochure and it's nice and glossy, what's the reality? And I guess what I may be interested in is...

Charlie Brackley (38:48.632)
Yes.

Guy Bloom (39:17.292)
How do you measure it? How would you know? How would you go into a company and go? So for example, if it's going to be BSI, you know, is it going to be, well, we have these documents, we have these, but what's the feel? It's like when you go into a restaurant, it might be clean, which is a great start, and it might be actually very on point, but it doesn't necessarily mean the staff have got the right energy, the engagements there, because process and people...

sometimes fit together beautifully, but sometimes they are a million miles apart. So I'm just interested perhaps in the dynamic of how we might measure or know.

Steve Phillip (39:57.41)
Yeah, I think it's really interesting question. So I think there are measurements and compliance as we know for BSI and ISO that, know, we know that's there. But I think, and I think you use the word, it's a feel or phrase, it's the feel there guy, I think has a customer or someone walking into a business or a client, you get a feel, it's those extra touches, the extra things the staff are prepared to do. I want to come back to something you said about the mechanic in the car before.

In my days of being a director of leadership and management training company, one of our clients was Honda, both in the UK and nationally. worked, our mission was actually to see if we could get an improvement in customer satisfaction index in the retail car trade. So we developed this program where we did the training and

we got about an 8 % increase in customer satisfaction in the first year and Japan recognized that. One of the ways we did that was by introducing something called customer improvement teams, where everybody from the ground up, whether you were the car wash person outside, a mechanic, a receptionist, we're all able to contribute ideas to how to improve customer satisfaction and rewarded basically on your particular touch points because Honda had this

goal to get like perfect customer satisfaction really and would survey the customers and I'm trying to remember what the actual statement was but it set pretty well set them up to fail because it's you know we're kind of not going to let you know anything below perfect be our aim here so did we achieve that for you but we did make a move forward and what a number of things happened that that because everyone at ground level

was able to contribute and recognize the part they played in that customer's journey and be rewarded for the success of that as well was really important. what was more important than the reward was actually being contributing to those teams. You would have rotation of chair people in these groups and you could have the valetor that had been standing out in the freezing gold.

Steve Phillip (42:10.584)
you know, now chair of an improvement team and it goes home at the end of the day and his partner says, you know, how's your day gone? Usually I'm just watching cars, but hey, I was chair of the improvement team today and we're doing this and we're doing that. And just the whole demanour of the employees change. Now this is something that through our work in suicide prevention, we've already been piloting and used in the aviation industry with a client where we introduced a wellbeing improvement teams, the same approach.

grassroots get the team involved, allow them to contribute. And the ideas that come forward are dramatic really. And ideas that leadership often is the simple stuff you can do that leaders have often forgotten.

Guy Bloom (42:56.161)
Hmm. Do you know I like about this? I think when we talk about integration, you know, that's the idea of bringing something in, it feels very normalized, but there is something here about actually, if it comes to something that's commercial, one may argue that the more senior you are, then by definition, the more knowledge you may have on it. But when it comes to something like this, that isn't really the case. That would mean I could sit with you as whatever, you know, level one is in the company and you can be on the board.

But when we have this conversation, then actually my truth and your truth are going to be very, very, they'll be our own, but actually we're exactly at the same level because in fact, it may be harder for you because in your role, the pretense of bravery, need to show invulnerability to always, in fact, I may be three layers below you, but I think you've got it harder than, you may have it harder than me. So it does that level. So there is something about having.

those kind of conversations that actually I think what was most powerful is they're not done just by tier. That actually that's a fully integrated set of conversations that the most senior people are in the room with, be it the most junior or be it the youngest and demonstrating that actually this is something that is a universal truth. You know, we all eat food, we all go to the loo. This is one of those things that there is no, when we're on the loo, right, we're all the same pants down.

you know, and Bob's your uncle. You know, so it's not, you know, I'm a tier one better what version of it than you are. So that it's not just bringing it in and making it cultural. I think there's something about a D kind of hierarchy, rise Asian may or may not be a word that shows how genuine it is. And it's something that we can all actually resonate with. Does that make sense when I say that?

Charlie Brackley (44:25.433)
you

Charlie Brackley (44:49.978)
It does and as Steve and you were talking Guy there, what was kind of playing through my mind in terms of the measurement is how diverse it potentially can be. So it could be diverse again across different levels, but equally, you know, I've worked in organizations where you can see two different teams doing exactly the same role and the performance.

despite the enablement being consistent, the performance is wildly different between those and you could move somebody from one of those teams over to a different team and that under performer suddenly is performing. Well, why is that? And I think a lot of the conversation that we're having, not necessarily at its extreme level, but certainly in terms of that psychological safety comes from that.

if you feel that you can work directly in a team more productively by being more open, you're more likely to be better at the job. And that ties all the way back around to what Steve, you you were saying there in terms of the economic viability and the economic reason to invest money and time into this, into this kind of stuff. Because, because yet it's, it is very democratic, mental health, you know, it doesn't pay attention to your rank. It couldn't care less, right?

Steve Phillip (46:12.31)
Good point. Yeah, it certainly doesn't discriminate in that respect at all, Charlie. You're absolutely right. So why shouldn't everyone be involved in the conversation? It's a really good point.

Guy Bloom (46:15.02)
Yeah.

Guy Bloom (46:26.316)
So what would we say? This is one of these topics that, again, there's no end to this conversation, it's a forever topic. So I already think we haven't done it justice, but also we've been talking about it for 50 minutes just because you could just never stop talking about it. And this wasn't a podcast that was about action lists and all that kind of stuff, because that's what the internet's for and getting in contact with people.

you know, and even yourself, you know, the Jordan legacy or whatever that might be. But I think what I'm hearing is there's a recognition that, yes, OK, it might be male mental health may be something that's very much a hot topic right now, but it's a universal truth for everybody. There's something here about making it cultural, not allowing it to become the agenda, but having it as part of the agenda.

And maybe what it is is it's indicative of my ability to have a conversation with you, probably as my line manager or anybody that's even paid, why am even line manager? I can reach out to a payer. Maybe it's a direct report. I mean, can just say, hey, listen, I'm feeling a bit, this is how I am right now. And actually it's not that I can only bring this up with somebody more senior than me.

That's an interesting characterization, isn't it? That I would have to go and talk to him. Well, why can't I say to a direct report? I don't think I'm really coping with this very well. And that direct report could go, hey, then do you want to just grab, I'm not a counselor, but do you want five minutes? You know, and actually, just like with the health and safety issue, can I only bring it up, you know, to somebody senior or do I just say to the person next to me, is that, is that right? You know, it's...

Steve Phillip (47:46.392)
Mm-hmm.

Guy Bloom (48:12.29)
Are we safe to have conversations that maybe don't even make us vulnerable though that is the word that we use but actually am I just safe to put something into that known space and It just be something that doesn't

take from me, it doesn't get me damaged. It doesn't get me hurt. Be it embarrassment or patronizing or just veered away from or, good, you're not bringing that up with me, are you? Well, not now, You know, or, you know, whatever it might be. Well, have you got any friends? You know, well, you know, so the glib joke, the humour that is, bant is a beautiful thing, but

Steve Phillip (48:46.36)
No.

Charlie Brackley (48:46.362)
you

Guy Bloom (49:00.306)
now may not be the time my friend so it's the ability culturally to just say as an organization can we talk about things that are real and genuine and they're in front of us and then insert topic this is one of them and it may never come up in somebody's life but it might come up this afternoon and

Steve Phillip (49:19.608)
Yeah, I think you're so right. You give me some great material for my next talk, by the way, Guy. I'm just making some notes here. Very, very interesting. a quick story about some work we did last year with a law firm, a workshop we ran with senior partners in an organization called Having Difficult Conversations. It could well have been titled a workshop on suicide prevention because that was why we were brought in as the Jordan legacy. But we looked at this and said,

you know, could we get a bunch of senior partners around the room to talk about having difficult conversations? And one of those difficult conversations in cert topic is suicide. And it was really interesting when we opened up and said, what are some of the difficult conversations they spent around performance, you know, having performance reviews, letting people go, you know, whole range of issues came up. And we said, OK, well, let's talk about the issue of suicide. You know, is that also a difficult conversation?

So it is about the wider context, the wider culture and inserting as appropriate topics as part of that discussion rather than maybe just isolating it completely. So yeah, interesting.

Charlie Brackley (50:33.53)
Living brave is hell of a title, right? But being brave enough to be vulnerable is serious strength. I often find myself more effective at these kinds of conversations at work or with friends than I do right there.

getting more involved in this topic and thinking about our conversation today. It's like, well, why is that? Fundamentally, I think it's because I'm more scared at home in terms of the impact than I am at work. You know, I care about the people at work, but no offence to any of them. I don't care about them as much as the guys in the house. so, you know, that scare is stronger at home.

And so sometimes I can find myself not reacting as I would want to, whereas maybe more effective at it at work. so use that, I try and use that, leverage that to say, well, actually, if you think you can do that better at work, then lean into it more, be even more brave about having those kind of conversations. So I think, yeah.

Guy Bloom (51:57.73)
I also think that good training offers you things that if it's true, it's probably true everywhere. Which is, if I teach you feedback, for example, then actually you receiving feedback from your other half or from your kids or you being able to give your kids feedback or you deep listening so people can feel heard. Yeah, great in a workspace, great with a client, but actually in truth, where do you really want to apply it? You want your other half to feel heard, you want to feel heard.

And I think one of the things I've become very, very clear about is that actually if it's true, it's probably true everywhere. And I think these kind of topics validate that kind of actually, if this is true, we could say a culture that, we could say a family that, we could say a friendship that, we could, you know, if it's a friendship, well, and I can't talk to you honestly, if it's a family where I can't put that on the table, if it's a team where we, then Houston, all of those are a problem.

Right? So I do like this idea of if things are genuinely true, they're generally true everywhere. So actually, it's not about framing it as just a work thing. It's about it's a human thing and you happen to be at work. And I think that that helps. It helps me anyway, think this is actually not about where I am. It's who I'm being while I'm there. And that's that's the maturity, I think, that starts to sort of come into it.

So listen, I'm going to just, I'm going to bring us to a close just because I think people's listening capacity kind of usually tops out at approaching an hour. And I'm not the Joe Rogan podcast where I'm so famous that people will tune in for three hours. So just on that note, go on Charlie.

Charlie Brackley (53:43.994)
I do feel like I'm on it slightly. You got the Joe Rogan look though.

Guy Bloom (53:49.398)
I'm going for it. I've listened to him ever since podcasting has been sort of around. So I do think I'm probably trying to live vicariously through Joe Rogan. And if you don't know Joe Rogan, then Google him. So listen, thank you so much. I think, you know, I don't know what this has achieved. Maybe it's just achieved a point of consciousness. Maybe it's just given people the ability to go and look at the Jordan legacy. Maybe it's just given people.

an ability just to put it into their brains and to think about it. And maybe there's been a few titbits in here, a few mental notes to self that may be of value. But just for me and everybody listening, I just want to say thank you, Charlie. Thank you, Steve. And Steve, if people do want to reach out to you, it Google the Jordan legacy?

Steve Phillip (54:38.978)
Yes, it is thejordanlegacy.com and everything you need to know.

Guy Bloom (54:47.05)
Okay, Charlie, Microlise, of course, is a phenomenal organisation, Microlise.com.

Charlie Brackley (54:51.001)
date.

Charlie Brackley (54:55.492)
MikeRise.com and if I may, whilst we're here, one of the origins of this conversation was an event that we are running on the 22nd of June, which is in support of the Jordan Legacy, which is a, it's a cricket game, it's a charity cricket game where we're trying to parallel some of those kind of struggles that men might go through and as all of the best ideas sometimes come, it came from a few beers on a cricket tour at the end of last year.

And so we are trying to play a whole test match in one day. We've got a number of really good corporate sponsors. It involves my local cricket club, Hemmingbrook Cricket Club. And yeah, we're trying to raise awareness, do something for the village as well. But ultimately it's about raising awareness and raising some money for the Jordan legacy. So yeah, that's one-daytest.org, if anybody wanted to look at that as well.

Guy Bloom (55:49.8)
ondaytest.org

Steve Phillip (55:53.032)
I will say, Guy, that I will be attending, but if you won't see me playing cricket, just nobody wants to see me play cricket.

Guy Bloom (56:00.758)
is that please don't approach me.

Steve Phillip (56:02.488)
Yeah.

Charlie Brackley (56:03.238)
I've already asked.

Steve Phillip (56:05.1)
Ha ha ha.

Guy Bloom (56:07.944)
not know who I am. Right, gentlemen, thank you, absolute pleasure and just thank you so much for being here. Make sure you stop on for a few minutes while everything uploads but been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Steve Phillip (56:18.722)
Yep, thank you guys. Thank you, Charlie.

Charlie Brackley (56:19.076)
Thanks, guys. Cheers,