Water Talk
Water Talk is a national podcast about all things Water hosted by Drs. Mallika Nocco (University of Wisconsin–Madison Extension), Faith Kearns (Arizona State University), and Sam Sandoval (University of California, Davis; University of California Agriculture & Natural Resources)
Water Talk
Ep 74: Tribal and Transboundary Issues in the Colorado River Basin
A conversation with Cora Tso (Senior Research Fellow, Tribal Water Policy, Kyl Center for Water Policy, Arizona State University) and Prof. Sam Sandoval (University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources, UC Davis, Water Talk podcast co-host) about the complex system of water use agreements with Tribes and Mexico. Released October 17, 2025.
Welcome to Water Talk. And today we're talking about the Colorado River. And so we're going to provide a little bit of a primer just because it is a very complex topic. So what's going on with the Colorado River today is that we have this looming deadline in 2026 that will end the current operating agreement of Lake Mead and Lake Powell, which are the two main reservoirs on the Colorado. And so what that is effectively doing is saying that after 2026, we just don't even have an agreement about how much water needs to be stored in those two huge reservoirs. And those reservoirs provide water for something like 40 million people, it depends how you how you calculate it, but a lot of people in the Southwest. And right now there are in the news stories every day about disagreements between what's known as the upper basin, which is the states of Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, and Wyoming. And then the lower basin states are Nevada, Arizona, and California. And the politics of some of that has shifted over the last few years. In particular, Arizona, Nevada, and California really have started to kind of negotiate a little bit more as a block. And what often gets left out of these conversations, especially in all the news stories I'm reading right now, is that there are also something on the order of 30 tribes that are each their own sovereign nations that are involved in the Colorado River or located within the Colorado River Basin. And then, of course, there's the binational agreement about the Colorado with Mexico. And so, you know, I think the goal today was to try and bring those two particular issues, tribes and Mexico, back into this conversation as we approach this looming deadline so that it isn't so much just this story of what's happening between the upper basin and the lower basin.
Mallika Nocco:So the other thing I think to mention is just who we decided to talk with about this. So, Faith, you have been working with Cora Tso, and actually for maybe the past year, you've been bringing up to us that you know this like rising star scholar who has like deep expertise in both, you know, the tribal aspects of water law, the Colorado River Compact, and like how are all of these things playing together. So we thought it was time to have Cora on Water Talk, and she kindly agreed to join us. And then the other thing, I don't know if people who listen to Water Talk realize that Sam Sandoval, our co-host, is actually one of the global experts on the United States binational relationship with Mexico in terms of water sharing and water governance. So it was actually pretty easy to come up with who to talk to about Mexico because we decided to talk with Sam about it. And Sam's actually here right now listening to us do the primer and being quiet because he's our guest. So yeah, Sam is gonna be our other, our other guest on the podcast today. So without further ado, let's talk with Cora and Sam about the Colorado River.
Faith Kearns:In today's episode, we're talking about the current state of the Colorado River and in particular two undercovered issues: tribes and the binational relationship with Mexico, with our guest Cora Tso from Arizona State University and our own Sam Sandoval. And just to introduce Cora, she is a senior research fellow at Arizona State University's Kyle Center for Water Policy, where she works to research, analyze, and develop recommendations related to Arizona's tribal water policy, including analyzing tribal nations' interests, needs, opportunities, and collaborating with tribal leadership and representatives, government agencies, and stakeholders in connection with the Arizona Water Innovation Initiative. Previously, Cora has worked with governmental, private, and nonprofit organizations focusing on Indian law, water law, and environmental law and policy matters. She's an enrolled member of the Navajo Nation and earned her juris doctorate degree with a certificate in Indian law from the Sandra Day O'Connor College of Law at ASU and her bachelor's degree in political science and minor in American Indian Studies from Barrett, the Honors College at ASU. So welcome to the show, Cora.
Cora Tso:Thank you so much for having me.
Mallika Nocco:Welcome, Cora, and welcome, Sam, in the hot seat, so to speak. So, Sam, we've already played our game with you, but we're gonna play our rapid fire game with you, Cora. So I we're gonna give you some either or scenarios and just choose without thinking much what your favorite is. Are you ready?
Cora Tso:Yes.
Mallika Nocco:Okay, mountain, stream or beach?
Cora Tso:Stream.
Mallika Nocco:Ocean or lake?
Cora Tso:Ocean.
Mallika Nocco:Sparkling or still?
Cora Tso:Still.
Mallika Nocco:Rain or snow?
Cora Tso:Rain.
Mallika Nocco:Salty or fresh?
Cora Tso:Fresh.
Mallika Nocco:Hhot or cold?
Cora Tso:Hot.
Mallika Nocco:Bath or shower?
Cora Tso:Shower.
Mallika Nocco:All right, that was fun. And I'm kind of doing like a quiet study about what people answer in my head. We'll see where it goes. Um so before we get going into these very important topics, we were wondering if you'd be willing to share with us your favorite water body.
Cora Tso:Yeah, thank you for the question. I think river. I grew up in northeastern Arizona near Lake Powell and the Colorado River, and I have had the very great privilege of doing a 10-day river trip on the Colorado River. So just being alongside it and understanding how it works and benefits us all is just like a beautiful thing. So love that.
Mallika Nocco:All right. That's fantastic. So we're talking about the Colorado River, and you chose the Colorado River. It's pretty perfect. So as Faith mentioned, you are kind of an early career rising superstar, and we're so excited to have you here. And we have a lot of people in our audience who are thinking about their career path, and we're wondering if you could share with us a pivotal moment that led you on your professional path or journey.
Cora Tso:Yeah, thank you so much again for having me and highlighting the work that I do. A lot of the work that I have journeyed on is really directly inspired by where I grew up. And as I mentioned, I am from northeastern Arizona. I'm from a small community on the western side of our reservation called Shonto. And I didn't learn this until I was in college, but my family was actually relocated because of the development of the Peabody Coal mine. And so we were from above the Black Mesa region to below more near the Shonto area. And I didn't understand that when I was younger, but growing up and having to take the bus over 70 miles one way to get to school and passing by the Navajo generating station and being next to Lake Powell and Colorado River and the Colorado River really just influenced how I was looking at natural resource extraction. And one of the great benefits that the Navajo Nation provides to our members is a scholarship program. And for a specific scholarship offering, you have to take a year of Navajo government and two years of Navajo language. And so in high school, I learned about that history. And I remember being 14 or 15 reading about how our tribal council was created because of this pressure of oilmen coming to trying to create these oil leases with the governing body of the tribe, and also learned about how the Navajo generation station was created and how some of those resources didn't necessarily come back into our communities. And so I just remember reading about our treaty agreement and understanding that there were language barriers, of course, from English to Spanish to Navajo and vice versa. And I just remembered wanting to help protect our resources and help protect our community. And I didn't know what that looked like for me until I came to college and took American Indian studies and learned about American Indian federal policy and learned that there's an area of law that you could work in. And that's when I learned about how many tribes still had unresolved water rights, mine included. And so that kind of led me into that path of okay, there's this area of Indian law, and there's also this area of water law. And there weren't too many tribal folks who were in that area specifically, and much less, you know, Indian law attorneys. And so it just felt like a good area to be able to give back to my community, but also something that was directly impacting my home and my family.
Faith Kearns:Thank you so much for sharing that, Cora. And it really is remarkable to see how far you've come on that journey already. You know, maybe not even 10 years later, probably you're you're really far down that path already. So we are going to talk a little bit more about the settlements that you brought up. But, you know, first I just kind of wanted to talk a little bit about the Colorado River. There's this looming 2026 deadline to renegotiate the operating agreement for the river's two biggest reservoirs: Lake Mead and Lake Powell. And this is sort of making daily headlines, at least in the Western U.S., you know, it's in the Arizona Republic, it's in the LA Times all the time. And the news really focuses right now on the disagreement sort of between the upper basin states, which is Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, Wyoming, I think I've gotten them all. And then the lower basin states, California, Nevada, and Arizona. But we hear a lot less about the tribes. And I'm wondering if you can just talk a little bit about what's happening with tribal water rights, especially as we're sort of moving into this really critical phase around what's going to happen with the Colorado River in the next year or so.
Cora Tso:Yeah, it's a it's a very important issue. And again, a very local and regional issue for the tribal communities within the basin. Within the Colorado River basin, we have 30 federally recognized Indian tribes. And for three at least, the discussion of the post-2026 guidelines really is a hindrance to the progress of their settlement of their water rights. And that is the three tribes, the Navajo Nation, the Hopi tribe and the San Juan Southern Paiute tribe, who currently have their approved settlement in Congress waiting for authorization. However, it is caught up in the web of how the future of the Colorado River is going to be managed because these tribes are either located half in the upper basin and two in the lower basin. And so thinking about how water is accounted for and managed within this time frame of uncertainty has really stalled the progress of that settlement. But by and large, this system of Western water and governance was never designed for tribal water rights management or protection. And I think that now we're seeing how history has either helped or hindered tribal water access. And we live within a system of governance that bifurcates these tribal nations into two basins. And in the context of the Colorado River Basin, there are seven tribes that are located within the upper basin. And I think more specifically, six, but the Navajo Nation is a part of the Upper Basin and the Lower Basin. So that's how I included them in there. But the majority of tribes are located within the lower basin. And so in the context of how tribes are operating within these post-2026 discussions, I always like to highlight how this system was not meant for this type of dialogue because these issues are so unique to each tribal nation. And also, by enlarge, we've heard tribes repeatedly say the system is interconnected and we also live in that type of holistic management plan. And so I think the way that the discussions are currently being had from the very essence of how the river is manage is certainly not in alignment with how historically tribes have governed their water within the Colorado River Basin. But it also is highlighting the exclusion that tribes have had to experience in how the river has been politicized and I guess agreed upon in legal documents over the last 100 years. And tribes not being formally engaged and brought into these conversations really does prevent them from fully having their needs and concerns heard and reflected in these current proposals. And I think the current proposals do try to highlight some of the issues that tribes have. But when you talk about tribal sovereignty, tribes not being included in these discussions, really doesn't make sense. And so I think that's one of the biggest concerns that tribes are highlighting throughout this conversation. Those who do have quantified settled rights and those who also are still in progress of settling their water rights. Sovereignty does not go away whether we have our rights quantified or not, it's going to exist and is a power that is recognized by the federal government is not something that the federal government gave to Indian nations or the state of Arizona or any other state within the Colorado River Basin. And so it's an interesting time to have those discussions because I think that a theme that we'll see in my thoughts today is just that tribal water law is very complex, but it's also very layered. And so we're not just dealing with water law in the sense of prior appropriation law and how the law of the river has been managed, but we're also dealing with 30 different tribal nations laws and customs and this overlying layer of tribal sovereignty that affects all tribes within the United States and not just the 30 within the Colorado River Basin.
Faith Kearns:And just to be super clear, the is there a formal role for the tribes in the negotiations as they move forward, or is it more considered a consultative? what is the requirement for interaction? Is there one?
Cora Tso:If we're looking at some of the foundational documents that highlight how the seven basin states and the federal government are supposed to negotiate these issues, there is no formal role within those documents. However, the federal government, as a trustee of the 30 tribes, has a fiduciary responsibility and is obligated to protect our assets. And so they do hold that role and wear that hat, but they also are wearing other hats as representative of the United States and the different seven basin states. So that's often one of the big criticisms of how the federal government is advocating for tribal nations. And again, if you know one tribe, you know one tribe. So how they manage to represent all 30 within the basin, included with the seven basin states and their own interests, can be problematic and complex and concerning for most folks. So there is no formal role.
Mallika Nocco:So you mentioned uh tribal water rights settlements. And I'm wondering if you could just tell us a little bit more about what they are and also how they are factoring into the Colorado River negotiations.
Cora Tso:Yeah. So tribal water rights settlements are generally a voluntary agreement between the necessary parties to a certain water source or area of contention. But these settlement agreements, of course, in many times start from litigation between tribes and non-tribal parties in regard to certain water bodies and different water resources. But ultimately these agreements have been seen as the preference for not only the federal government, but also different state governments throughout the basin to settle the outstanding claims of tribal nations within the Colorado River basin. But they essentially are meant to help facilitate some of those challenges that tribes face within the Western legal system and ultimately bring in more partnership between the different parties. But again, they're negotiated compromises, and so they're not always from different perspectives, whatever state, federal, or tribal, they're not always going to be an easy pill to swallow. And so they are the best we can do in the time that we have and the resources that we have, but essentially they are that voluntary legal agreement to settle those water rights claims.
Faith Kearns:So, Cora, like just to be specific, can you talk a little bit maybe about like the Northeastern or just to talk a little bit about specifically what, you know, what's in it and where it stands?
Cora Tso:So I'm not currently working on any settlement right now. I don't currently represent any tribal government, but within the state of Arizona, we have two settlements that are approved stateside and locally. One is the Northeastern Arizona Indian Water Rights Settlement Agreement, and that again includes the Navajo Nation, Hopi Tribe, and San Juan Southern Paiute tribe. That settlement legislation is introduced in Congress and is currently waiting in a vote. The other pending water rights settlement we have is the Yavapai Apache Nation water rights settlement, and we are waiting for them to reintroduce legislation in Congress to approve that. Congress has an important role in authorizing these settlements because of, again, that trust responsibility that the federal government has with each tribal nation. But there's also in constitutional law facets of the law that state that Congress is the only representative body that is able to work with Indian tribes and in dealings with Indian tribes, and the way that federal Indian law has developed over time has been interpreted to make those certain agreements and authorization power necessary. I also wanted to highlight that within the state of Arizona, as I mentioned, having a majority of the tribes within the Colorado River Basin in the lower basin, Arizona still has a number of tribes that have unresolved water rights claims and still have pending settlements to come. But the I think for the last year and a half, the northeastern Arizona Indian Water Settlement has been a big discussion within the state of Arizona because it resolves the claims of the largest tribal nation within the United States, the Navajo Nation, and is really such a sticky settlement because it includes a tribal nation that is within both subbasins and is indirect or is in interconnected with the operations of Lake Powell and the Colorado River.
Faith Kearns:Yeah. So is your sense that like if there wasn't this context for the Colorado River happening right now, that the Northeastern in particular would potentially be signed faster? Or it or do you feel like they're sort of un they're not untied at this point, but I guess just how much the ongoing Colorado River negotiations are also affecting the tribal settlement?
Cora Tso:I think if we did not have the timing of how the basin is going to be operated post-2026, intersecting with the approval of the settlement, it it would it should have been approved. It is a very, I think, cooperative agreement and it solves problems that the state of Arizona is currently experiencing, but it also benefits the basin as a whole because it resolves the claims of these tribal nations. And the Navajo nation being the largest, it really does benefit everybody to understand where our water is going. But at a very, I think, most critical level, it helps give access to these tribal community members and non-tribal community members who live on these reservations and and contribute to our communities and economies. And so if we did not have the post-2026 negotiations happening, of course, there would still be politics involved. But I don't think to the extent necessary as we've seen over the last year, and there have been specific efforts by certain states within the basin that have actively prevented the passage of this settlement because of how the Upper Basin and Lower Basin have been negotiating these post-2026 negotiations.
Faith Kearns:Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I want to bring Sam into the conversation just because I, you know, one of the most interesting things to me about the tribal settlements is that in many ways, getting them signed would create a lot more certainty for everybody in terms of where the water goes. And that's one of the biggest challenges on the Colorado right now, is just all there's so much uncertainty. So you'd think people would want to introduce more certainty, but it isn't quite happening that way. Sam, you are one of the most foremost experts on the binational relationship between the US and Mexico when it comes to Colorado. Can you provide a brief background on the current conditions related to the river? As you know, the relationship between Mexico and the United States ongoing on this issue. Just kind of paint the picture of where it stands today.
Samuel Sandoval Solis:Always happy to be here. And in this time, as Mallika said, on the hot seat. The picture that I want to paint first is how water is used in Mexico. Water comes from the Colorado River and it touches the border in San Luis Rio Colorado. And basically that's where water is diverted into Mexico, will go through Mexicali, and it passes to an irrigation district, irrigation district 14, Colorado River, Rio Colorado, and it also uses water, the city of Mexicali. If Mexicali uses that water, then so that is like right south of Calexico. Then water will go through an aqueduct towards the coast. So below San Diego is the city of Tijuana. So there is an aqueduct that moves water from Mexicali to Tijuana, and it will provide waters to Tecate, like the beer. Actually, that's the name of the beer, and then Tijuana, and then it will go south, and it will provide water to Rosarito, and then to the city of Ensenada. So it is a pipe system. It also uses water in a couple of two other agricultural places, Valle de Guadalupe, which is very well known for the wines and the good food that is in there, and then Valle de Maneadero, which is really close to Ensenada. So that's how water is used and the purposes. About 3.4 million people, 85% of the population of people living in the state of Baja California relies on Colorado River water. It is important for all of that and for a lot of agriculture. In terms of the background of relationships with Mexico and the United States, there is a key point.
Mallika Nocco:Wait, Sam, I got a question before you get going. I just had a follow-up, just because we did do a few seasons ago, we did a whole episode on the Imperial Valley, and that's when we talked about Mexicali and Calexico and how they're kind of right across from each other on the border. Is the water use in Mexicali very similar to the agricultural types that are in the Imperial Valley of California? Same kinds of crops grown?
Samuel Sandoval Solis:Correct, the same kinds of crops. And sometimes it's actually the same organizations, the same companies, the same owners, just having properties in both sides and managing the water and their operations jointly. One user that I forgot to mention is the environment. So I portrayed the piping system. Some of that water used to go to the Colorado River Delta. So the Colorado River used to go all the way south to the Sea of Cortes, the Gulf of California. Now it doesn't reach or it reaches only when we provide these pulse flows. They have occurred three times. So basically, it is this relationship. Now, let me let me talk about the agreements. One key document is 1944. The treaty of 1944 between Mexico and the United States. That year they signed a document and said, like, well, okay, we're gonna provide water to Mexico, 1.5 million acre feet, which it was a really good deal. Mexico has less than 1% of the basin as an area, receives about 11% of the water on the Colorado, so great deal on that side. But it establishes the framework of delivering water to Mexico. Then we have two key parts. One is the International Boundary and Water Commission. So a commission that has two sections, one in the US and Mexico, that basically, whatever this commission signs, it is implemented. They are implementing the treaty. The treaty was just kind of a big document that has this implementation, that commission does it, and it does it through minutes. So they sign minutes that actually are formal agreements that are implemented. We have more than 330 agreements. So this is a living document that is being renovated. Related to what we're talking, basically there have been three minutes: 319, 323, and 330. You don't have to remember the numbers, but basically, these agreements go hand in hand with the guidelines for coordinated operation of Powell and Mead, and then the later drought contingency plan. So this the what we are discussing here is 2007, the Bureau of Reclamation and the states decided like, what if we don't have any water? We're gonna cut back the assignment to different states. The states will not receive their full allocation, they are gonna receive less. There are minutes that actually refer to that a contingency plan, to those guidelines that basically says, well, the the states reduce their water allocation, Mexico will reduce their water allocation. And then this is since 2012. So since 2012, Mexico has been reducing their water allocation. By now, so there are three minutes, three agreements. One was Mexico is gonna just have cutbacks. Certain amount of water will not be delivered. But then the second agreement was well, you know, actually we need more cutbacks. This time they will happen as we're gonna save some water in Mead, you're gonna see that water in there. If we have higher levels of Mead, we can return you that water, but otherwise, I mean, that water is there, it's a good monument. Water is stored behind it, but it is very difficult to call under low conditions. And then the last agreement, which it was in 2024, basically provides cutbacks and savings that were in addition to the previous two. So there have been three agreements who have been layering on top of each other to reduce water allocations.
Faith Kearns:Thank you for sharing that, Sam. So what I'm hearing a lot is basically. Basically, you know, there are various groups coming out with all sorts of reports that are just basically saying, right, the hydrological conditions and the climatic conditions are just such that we don't have the water we thought we did, probably never had the water that we thought we did. And now we've got this really complicated political overlay. Upper basin and lower basin states are fighting. Mexico's already taken a ton of cuts, you know, Arizona's taken cuts, like, you know, and then we've got these tribal settlements going on in the background that are also like being held up because of the impasse around the negotiations. That's a really simplistic kind of way to put it, but it just, you know, hearing some of the preeminent scholars of the Colorado River kind of saying, you know, we are at a crisis point and there's just not enough water, and everybody's gonna have to learn how to take a cut back, right? But how that all plays out is really challenging to think about.
Cora Tso:I also wanted to add that in this conversation, while tribes are not having formalized cuts in in these agreements like DCP or whatnot, that the unresolved water rights for tribes are natural cuts. And they are natural in the sense that they are part of the river and other users get to use them, even though tribes have claims to them. And that's often why you hear or read in some publications that tribes have X amount of claims to this amount of water within the Colorado River Basin and its tributaries. And so I always like to highlight that because although we do have tribes that have their quantified rights and contribute to system conservation, there are other tribes who have no choice but to leave their water in the river because they aren't unable to access it.
Faith Kearns:Yeah, thank you both so much for for sharing those things with us. I think obviously there's that this is uh a daily battle to keep up with the news in terms of the Colorado River. And so we're just adding a little drop to the bucket here to also kind of try to mark that, you know, it isn't just an upper basin, lower basin discussion. There are many other sovereign nations involved, the tribal nations in Mexico. But I just wanted to sort of ask you both, you know, just because these are such complex issues, and we will link to, you know, we did an episode last year with John Fleck and Kathryn Sorensen on the Colorado River and talked a little bit more about the compact and all that kind of stuff. So we'll link to that stuff in the show notes just for further background for folks, because it is really hard to just jump into talking about the Colorado River. But I wanted to give you both just a chance to kind of like if there was one key thing that you wanted people to keep in mind as they keep hearing about what's happening with the Colorado River over the next year, what would you want people to take away from this conversation moving forward?
Cora Tso:That's a big question because I feel it's feel like it's so dynamic and again, so specific to each community. But I think what we are seeing in this conversation are age-old issues that aren't being addressed. And so I hope that people look at the history for what it is and help advocate for a more fair and neutral policy conversation. And I think that starts with the full inclusion and understanding that the historical usage and practices that tribal nations have had in this basin have protected the water for many generations and it seems like a very simple outlook. So I hope people can see that for what it is. But I also want the main takeaway for people to be that when we're talking about tribal water issues, it's not just water law. I wish it were that simple, but it is, you know, that layer of tribal sovereignty protecting and strengthening and making sure that our tribal governments and our communities are advancing, but also making sure, like from the essence of what our winter's rights doctrine has established, that we have it a permanent homeland to continue to come back to. And oftentimes, you know, we're we're fighting a fight for the homeland that we've sustained over generations, but we have no other choice. Like this is our home, and everything about us, from our clans to how we see our future in our cultural stories, have dictated that we need to protect this. And so I hope that people understand that it's a it's a very complex area and it is not so easy to to work in, but it also is such a great benefit to have conversations like this to help share all those different layers as well.
Faith Kearns:Thank you so much, Cora. Thank you for sharing that. Sam?
Samuel Sandoval Solis:I do have like three bullet points. But one thing in there that I think in the Colorado River we don't have a problem of water, we have a problem of priorities. So we have water, and we have water for the 40 million plus the four that I was mentioning in Mexico. And we have water for the tribal nations. Like we do have that water, but our priorities are towards users that are profiting of that priority. And and that one is that users that you think they use water, but they actually would like to sell water or would like to have that leverage as their priority to manage their interest. And and to me that has to be clear. We have water in the Colorado, and water for people, but their priorities vary way back, and water for Indian nations. The other part that I want to bring is that I'm not sure if we should call this a drought contingency plan because this is not a drought. We created this drought. I was trying to make an analogy, but basically, thinking that I have $2,000 a month budget, but I'm always planning to spend $2,500, $3,000. And then I'm saying that I have an economic problem in terms of income. And it is not that way. I don't know if we should just keep doing it because one other thing. So we have a drought well, the interim guidelines since 2007. And later we did the contingency plan on 2019. It hasn't worked. Like, just look at Mead, like really, this hasn't worked. So, I don't think it's a drought, is that everyone wants to take their part and it's there is not enough water. And and I think we should flip it that conversation. The last one is that this is a man-made problem, and I think we can fix it. If we enter in like "these are all these rules that are already set, and we cannot move away from them," we are actually we're just gonna be perpetuating our mistakes. We created those rules, we can undo them. We can change priorities, put First Nations first. That's not a it's not a big deal, my friends.
Faith Kearns:I hope so. I like that you both are sort of like this actually is a simple problem because I agree with you. And then we've layered all this complicated governance stuff on top of it. It is such a simple thing in so many ways, but so complicated on the other hand. But thank you both for spending on a we can do this, there are things to do note.
Mallika Nocco:So, Cora, we always like to ask our guests if there's anything more that you would like people to know about the work that you're doing and how we can all support your efforts.
Cora Tso:Yes, thank you for the question. I have been busy all year, a labor of love, creating a first of its kind summary of our Arizona tribal water settlements. And it's going to be released later this year. In Arizona, we have 10 fully and partially resolved tribal water settlements for 10 different tribal nations. And I've had the pleasure of reading every single one of them and their amendments and historical context to really build a reference guide for folks to understand this history and not only how much progress that has come to tribal communities, but also how much tribes have helped sustain the cities of Phoenix and Tucson and all of the different communities across urban Arizona. And so I am so excited to be able to contribute that to the community. And I hope good things come from it. It was inspired from working for my tribe back up at Navajo in our Department of Justice in our water rights unit as a young attorney and now understanding how our tribe connected to on river tribes and the Central Arizona tribes and the upper basin tribes. And so I hope it's a first step and we build upon this. But we also mentioned earlier in this conversation what was included in the Northeastern Arizona Indian Water Rights Settlement Agreement. And we have created short explainers for folks to digest this 30 plus page agreement, and we're currently updating the agreement with this year's new legislation, and so we're excited to release that update as well. And we also did an explainer on the Yavapai Apache Nations Water Right Settlement. And that has great visuals for people to look at the water sources and quantity and some of the cool things they have agreed to within their agreements. But I think the shining star is this guidebook that we've created, and of course, it's um from a tribal perspective, so we're very excited to be able to contribute that to the dialogue and hopefully help folks understand.
Faith Kearns:Yeah, I've learned so much from working with Cora and got a sneak peek at the work that she put into this guidebook, and I think it's gonna be a really useful thing for folks moving forward. So thank you for sharing that, Cora.
Cora Tso:Yeah, thank you. Really appreciate it.
Faith Kearns:Sam.
Samuel Sandoval Solis:So for me, it will be how can you help me is by us building community. And when I say building communities, actually supporting programs that are helping building community, one of those is this podcast, Water Talk. In terms of the binational parties, we have the permanent forum of binational waters. And basically, that one is also building community among academics and people that talked about water along the border. It's binationalwaters.org, that's where you can find us, join us, and we have events every month, and we discuss some of these issues in English and Spanish, so everyone can have these conversations and information. And I think the the one last plug is building community in terms of being in the community, part of the community. So when I was talking about the Mexicali, Tecate, Tijuana, I've been there, I've been working with some growers, working with some of the people there, and just getting to know actually what will be the impacts. Really happy to meet Cora right now, and the same trying to come up with all our First Nations and be a good advocate. Anyway, so for for me it will be that.
Faith Kearns:Well, that was a super interesting episode, super interesting conversation with Cora and Sam about the Colorado River and Mexico and tribes. And now we're gonna do our new segment, the parting gift. And so I guess what I would say I would take away from this conversation is just to reinforce again this idea that there's more going on in this conversation than just what's happening between seven states in the United States, that there really is this much more complex component of things. And I would also just add really fast that I really like that both Cora and Sam on some level said, like, this is actually a simple problem we could solve. And that was a really hopeful thing for me, said from a person who isn't often all that hopeful. So thank you for that.
Mallika Nocco:I agree with you, Faith. I also came away from it thinking about this issue of who and what we prioritize when it comes to Colorado River water and how shifting those priorities could really be helpful in solving the problem and thinking about what they mean. Sometimes when we talk about these compacts in history, I just feel that we're tied to these treaties and these compacts and these documents from a long time ago when we as a society had, at least some of us, maybe I should say, had very different values, right? So there's a part of me that's like, gosh, especially when I was listening to Cora, how do we adjust some of these documents and treaties to align with what we say our values are today?
Samuel Sandoval Solis:And for me, the parting gift that I had is the how much privilege Mexico has to actually have a seat and a consideration in the table. Listening to this is, I mean, we at some point we're discussing about cutbacks, and then Cora talks about like, well, you know, we also have received cutbacks, and basically is that we just see the water pass, even though we needed a hundred percent cutbacks, when in Mexico we're thinking about cutbacks this year 20%. So the privilege that actually Mexico have to have a seat and still be considered in the table and have an allocation when when others don't have. And perhaps on the positive side that we have a lot of things in common with tribes, tribal nations in terms of being stewards of the land, in terms of looking for the environment, and in terms of actually dealing with a lot of powerful players that not necessarily want to give an inch of water or give any water. So for me, that was interesting to see those similarities and the privileges.
Mallika Nocco:One last parting gift. This is just kind of a silly one. But for our listeners, when I first met Sam in person, Sam does his thing, and actually, anybody, any students, anybody who's interacted with Sam knows that no matter where you are, like on a napkin or wherever, Sam can take out a sheet of paper and draw the whole California system of aqueducts and the water cycle and where water is is moving and the pipes. And it seems from that just little conversation that I suspect you can probably do the same for Mexico too. I just haven't seen you do it. I'm gonna make you do it the next time I see you, though.
Samuel Sandoval Solis:Yeah. And and and it's just well, you know, it is also the relation with water, like actually not just talk about it, but see how it is on the land.
Mallika Nocco:Yeah, when you were describing the aqueduct, it actually reminded me of California. Like that there's definitely it sounds like some commonality in the way that water is distributed in Mexico.
Samuel Sandoval Solis:Oh, yeah, a lot of uh copycat on that side from the Mexican side, but also the relationship. A lot of this is literally a sister city.
Mallika Nocco:Yeah, I think it's just the crops and the people and the the way in which water is used is kind of similar across the two places. So that makes sense.
Samuel Sandoval Solis:Yeah. That's a very good parting gift.
Faith Kearns:Thank you for listening to the Water Talk Podcast. I'm Faith Kearns and I'm the director of research communications with the Arizona Water Innovation Initiative at Arizona State University.
Samuel Sandoval Solis:My name is Samuel Sandoval. I'm a professor at UC Davies and a cooperative extension specialist in water resources management at the University of California Division of Agriculture and Natural Resources.
Mallika Nocco:I'm Molly Kinoco, Assistant Professor and State Extension Specialist in Agricultural Water Management at the University of Wisconsin Madison. If you enjoy our show, please review, listen, like, and subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Please find transcripts and additional content at WaterTalkPodcast.com. Original music by Paloma Herrera Thomas.