Join me in my conversation with Dr. Terrell Clark, and Academic Dean in higher education as he talks about navigating being unseen and misunderstood as a young person to being the educational leader he is today. In this conversation he shares where we should focus our attention on students in order to get it right, especially for Black students and students of color who may be struggling in traditional educational systems.
Dr. Clark envisions a world where every student can be seen and honored for their lived experiences, and for their strengths to be identified as the launching point for their learning journeys.
He has his DED in Educational Leadership from Gwynedd Mercy in Pennsylvania.
Want to reach out to connect with Dr. Clark?
Write him here: Jeromeclark90_at_hotmail_dot_com
Join me in my conversation with Dr. Terrell Clark, and Academic Dean in higher education as he talks about navigating being unseen and misunderstood as a young person to being the educational leader he is today. In this conversation he shares where we should focus our attention on students in order to get it right, especially for Black students and students of color who may be struggling in traditional educational systems.
Dr. Clark envisions a world where every student can be seen and honored for their lived experiences, and for their strengths to be identified as the launching point for their learning journeys.
He has his DED in Educational Leadership from Gwynedd Mercy in Pennsylvania.
Want to reach out to connect with Dr. Clark?
Write him here: Jeromeclark90_at_hotmail_dot_com
You're listening to the Inner Light with Ellen podcast. I'm your host, Ellen Wyoming Deloy. I'm a coach in Portland, Oregon, who works with people across the US and, occasionally, the world. I help people to transition from where they are to where they want to be, removing limiting beliefs, barriers and imposter syndrome along the way. On this show, I bring you conversations with leaders in wellness, spirituality, healing, mindfulness and more. We also dive into themes around intuition, equity, racial justice and what it means to be living here in the 21st century. I'm excited to bring you each episode. Thanks for listening. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen and, if you love the show, leave a five-star review so others can find us. If you want to learn more about my work and what I do, go to ellenwayomingdeloycom. Thanks, Enjoy the episode. I would like to welcome Dr Terrell Clark to the show today. Welcome, Dr Clark. How are you doing this morning?
Speaker 2:I'm doing great. How are you doing?
Speaker 1:I'm good, i'm excited to have you here today. I would love to So. You are in a role of educational leadership, helping to provide pathways forward for students, all students, but you have an interest in diverse students, students of color, students, maybe from more non-traditional backgrounds in higher education and creating pathways forward for them. I'd love to learn more about your approach, your background and where you see the future of education for these students. Is there anything that you'd like to say first before I dive into questions? No, no, go ahead, all right. Well, dr Clark, would you mind sharing a little bit just about your own background and personal experiences with education? I imagine that they were quite formative in becoming who you are today.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, absolutely. I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia. I was raised by my grandparents. My grandparents didn't have a whole lot of education. I struggled in school. I did, i struggled.
Speaker 2:I struggled because people didn't really know who I was And through that, my grandparents didn't know how to help me And the teachers that I had didn't believe in me, and so it was a lot of mental barriers that I had to overcome, not only just the other barriers I had to deal with outside of school that I had to deal with every single day.
Speaker 2:So being a black man is very difficult when you're coming from a situation that's not ideal, when you don't have any help at home and you don't have anyone that believes in you at school, and so those two things really created a lot of mental barriers for me to be able to have to overcome. Now I am someone who's very competitive. I truly do believe in myself, even when things and situations around me don't correspond with what I believe in myself. I had to push myself through a lot of situations to learn and to grow and to get better and, believe me, i felt a lot. It was times in school that I would go and then I would give my report card and it was all else, all else.
Speaker 1:What around the mental barriers that you mentioned and the competitive spirit. Were you competitive with competition, the way you sort of saw through those mental barriers, or what were some of the things that made you go I can do something different. What was that for you? It sounds like you were driven from within.
Speaker 2:That there was an internal fire.
Speaker 2:I was driven from within that competitive nature of myself. I played sports in school and that was the main reason why, probably, i went to school me and some of my friends because of sports. Sports was something that we were great at and people told us we were great at. Now, when it came to academics, i didn't have any fans, and so that made it really hard to be able to persevere in the classroom. But that competitive nature that I have, i didn't quit. I didn't quit. I didn't quit through the ridicule I would give my grades and people would laugh at me. I didn't quit. I didn't quit. I just kept working at it, kept believing in myself. A lot of things I would just, you know, at home I would just go over things over and over and over again, trying to master what I was trying to learn in the classroom so I could be better. But yeah, the competitive nature that I have is something that really drives me still drives me to this day.
Speaker 1:Yes, Was there a certain age that you were when it started to turn for you, when you were sounds like that internal drive and that application of yourself to sort of turn the dial on it and prove people wrong? Was there like a specific moment that you remember? Was there anyone else involved that was supportive in that journey, or was it? what was that like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, let me tell you, I remember a moment where I was sitting at the dinner table and my grandparents raised me, but I did go with my parents occasionally and I was over there and I was sitting at the table and I was in like the fifth grade. I remember I was in the fifth grade and I was sitting at the table and my father my biological father told me I was stupid. They told me that to my face because I was struggling at the table and that made me mad. It also was fearful for me. I wanted to prove him wrong, that he was wrong about me And not only him. I wanted to prove everyone's wrong about me, cause my counselor said I couldn't go to college. I wouldn't, you know, i wouldn't translate over to college.
Speaker 2:Well, but that was the moment for me. That was the moment that it was like nitrogen for me When he told me that And I don't have a good relationship with my father, he's been in and out of prison, but that was the moment I remember. I remember I cried that day at that table, but that was the last time I cried in front of him, because that really just turned something. And I'm going to tell you this. It's not always the good moments that give you that switch.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's the things that you don't want to hear, that are not nice, are the things that really just take you to another level. So it's not always pretty transitions. It wasn't for me, because that was something that I never, i never forget that. I never forgot that. I held on to that and I still hold on to that And to what any negative things that people have told me. And that happened in the fifth grade. So I went on to middle school with that in mind, still struggling, but grades were getting a little better Support. I was doing great, yeah, academics not so great, to the point where I was in special education. Ok, they put me in those classes and I tell you this Special ed back then is not what special ed is now.
Speaker 2:Ok, special ed back then was me, was made to humiliate a person. Every day I walked out of that class. My peers will look at me and say he's coming out of the stupid room. And Ellen, those words, i never forget those words. Those words were like logs to my fire And the teacher still didn't get it, still didn't understand me. But I still push through it anyway. And in my mind I had that, i had the aggressiveness, i had that, that determined I let it out on the court, i let it out on the football field or the basketball, i let it out there, and so what I couldn't let out in the classroom. I had my outlet when I played sports, and so that was the moment for me when he told me that at dinner table Ah, i never forget that, i never forget those words. I never forget that.
Speaker 1:And that is incredibly powerful And it breaks my heart to hear what your, what your father said to you, and then even the bullying taunts of the students. But what strikes me as really amazing and beautiful is the depth of your own inner reserves and the belief in yourself to stand up and go against what these people are saying, are saying to you or about you. I just can. I can almost feel the fire coming out of your chest about your value and that you believe in yourself. And how dare anyone not see you for how wonderful and magnificent you are? And this, this kind of, makes me want to ask, because, about the role that you are in now, the kind of work you do now and how I got to know you right through our professional engagements, is how you bring that fire to the, to the students you serve today, what makes you different and why is it important to have leaders like you in roles like you're in?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, because when I look at those students, especially students of color, i see myself, i see my struggles and I can relate to them, and so you need leaders like myself. It wasn't pretty, the journey hasn't been pretty, but it's been a delightful experience for me.
Speaker 1:And I need to just preface this You are a vice president. I'm so sorry, I always forget the whole title.
Speaker 2:I am a pathway dean of Academic Foundations, Essentials and Gateways.
Speaker 1:Thank you, but go ahead and tell me more again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you do need educational leaders like myself that truly do understand the barriers that students face, especially students of color, because the system wasn't designed for us to be successful in. It wasn't. It wasn't set up for us, and so when a student comes to the college, you know I try to connect with them And first thing I try to do is get to know who they are. And once you get to know who someone is, try to establish a relationship with them, because the journey is different for everyone, but it is a journey And I know my journey wasn't really wasn't delightful.
Speaker 2:All the time I had my ups and my downs. I had my barriers. I have things I have to deal with constantly, even today, as a black male, and I know students do also. So that drives me because I see myself in them And that allows me to just, you know, just go all out for them, because I know what it's like to not exist, for people not to see you And to not have a fan in the stands cheering you on your journey. I know what that's like And I don't want anyone to experience that. So that's why I'm so, you know, i'm all into what I do for students, because I truly do believe that everyone brings something valuable and great. Greatness is in everyone, and I try to just help them believe in themselves so they can continue to persevere through those hard times that they're gonna face along the journey.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, So, dr Clark, i have a feeling, if I spoke to a number of educational leaders, they would all share an enthusiasm for seeing through the hardships and the barriers that a student may be arriving with. What specifically do you feel is missing if a diverse student population does not see its diversity reflected in the leadership?
Speaker 2:Yes, that is, that's tremendous, because you do wanna see people who look like you at a campus. You want to see people that look like you. That means a lot to students because they feel, okay, i have some type of connection, because we do have people here that look like us, that look like me, and so that gives them opportunity to go up to. Students have came up to me at the current place that I'm employed at right now just because I'm black and they're black. They've come up to me and asked me questions and talk with me, and that is something that they need. They need that. They need that connection. It helps.
Speaker 2:You know, i'm not in it by myself. I do have someone I can go and talk to when things get a little bit difficult and I can be able to express myself to them And I don't have to also express myself. And then you know, when you're talking to a white person, you can explain the situation, but then you gotta explain being black at the same time. See, when a black person comes to me, they don't have to explain about being black, because I know about being black And so I can hear and I can understand and I can decipher through the things and I can be able to help them along their journey because I truly do understand and I relate to them.
Speaker 2:I know what it's like, ellen, to want something out of life but not know how to get it. I was in that situation with my grandparents. I wanted great things out of it, but they didn't know how to help me, and so I had a lot of I went into. I ran into a lot of speed bumps along the way And I wanna be that person, that life enhancer that a student meets when they come to campus, and I can be able to help them truly discover what's inside of them and then help them along the way on their journey as they persist towards graduation.
Speaker 1:If you were to give advice to other educational institutions who are working at this point to increase the diversity of their leadership so that they are more reflective of the students that they serve, but they're not quite there yet. What would you recommend to them in terms of how to listen or how to meet the needs of their diverse students today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, first they have to get diversity. They have to get blacks, people of color, on their campus. They really have to make that an intentional focus and not just something you just say on paper, because we have the DEI movement. It's a movement, but who are really? which colleges and universities are really intentional about bringing in those amazing candidates of color so they can be able to relate to their students? because, listen, african American students represent the least population on the campus but they got the highest dropout rate. That's mind-blown. We're the smallest demographic on the campus but we drop out at the highest rate.
Speaker 1:Right, but what about? the system is having a revolving door effect on them?
Speaker 2:Exactly the system needs to be. And just being nice, the system needs to be redone. The system doesn't work for us, and so if you want to be able to really capture these awesome, talented students of color, you need to bring in amazing instructional leaders, educational leaders. You need to have a system that truly embraces who they are, their culture and how we can be able to foster that once they get here, sustain it, and all of what we can sustain is by having people of color here.
Speaker 2:You can't sustain it with a white person not trying to be mean, but you can't be black because they don't know us. They truly don't understand what it is to be black and go through those struggles. They don't know those things that we deal with, those barriers that we face before we even get here. Then, when we get here, the system doesn't welcome us, doesn't embrace us, and so we feel that we don't belong. So we leave because the system doesn't welcome us with open arms. The system judges us, the system shows us all of our weaknesses. You're not good at this, you're not good at this, you're not good at this, so why should I stay?
Speaker 1:This is an interesting point that you bring up.
Speaker 1:When you say the system is judging, i'm thinking in terms of assessments for class placements and things like that that demonstrate the weaknesses which have a purpose in academics.
Speaker 1:And there's a missing component here that you're talking about, which is the getting to know the strengths of a person as an individual, to support them so that they can also see what they're good at, and that that's missing. If I think of my college experience, i never had that reflective opportunity and told oh, you're really good at this, this and this and this. Actually, i had deficiencies that were highlighted to me. I was actually told when I was in high school that I probably couldn't get into like these schools because I hadn't taken this one class and I got into all of them and I was like, why are you telling me this? So I remember that. But the deficiency focus is what you're highlighting here and how it adversely and further impacts and further harms populations of students black students, students of color, students who may be first generation in college even further, because they don't have that, that buffer of support through the rest of their educational journey or their earlier lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is so true, Because when a student comes in and taking an assessment, the assessment is designed to find their weaknesses.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To find what they're not good at. Then guess what we do? We go on and we highlight that by putting you in a developmental course and telling you you're not smart at all, instead of finding what students do. Great, ellen, because people don't realize what a gift is A gift you're able to do something with the least amount of effort and do it great. That's your gift And student. Everybody in the world has a gift, so assessments needs to be tailored towards that.
Speaker 2:Then let me take that information and translate it over to the instructors in the classroom. Now I know how this person works best, so I can get the best out of this particular student, instead of me working towards their weaknesses, which you'll never. People don't realize this. You're never going to get anywhere on your weaknesses. You're only going to go places with your strengths, with your gifts, and colleges don't recognize that We are set up to find out students weaknesses, then highlight that.
Speaker 2:Then we demoralize them by putting them in developmental classes and telling them you don't have what it takes, when that's not true at all. They do have what it takes. We just have to find out how to be able to educate them so they can be successful. That's what it's all about. And so once you tap into what I'm great at, you unlock me, ellen, and you unlock the real person that you don't know yet. And so that is what's so powerful about that My uniqueness, my specialness, everything that's in me comes out, because now you have engaged my gift, and my gift is going to be the gift and it's going to shine so everyone can see that, and it's only going to grow. It's only going to grow and it feeds that People feed off that, feed off that positive energy, and we continue to grow and we grow confidence. That grows every day, every class, and we continue to try things that we haven't tried before. We challenge ourselves, because that's where we find out even more things about ourselves.
Speaker 2:People don't realize that once you've mastered a thing, you have to do something different to continue to grow. And so colleges don't do a good job at that, ellen. They don't. They want to teach towards the weaknesses, they never expose the greatness. So students drop out, especially students of color. We drop out because we don't see us anywhere on this college. We don't see ourselves valued. What we bring to the table is not really looked upon as an asset, it's looked as a liability, and that's not good for us, and so I can relate to that, because that was me. I was told by the world stay in the shadows, you don't have what it takes to realm, and that wasn't true at all.
Speaker 1:Thank you. I got carried away on the enthusiasm. I was like I don't have other questions now. I could just let Dr Clark keep talking. But what I hear here is the time and emphasis on getting to know the individual so that you can actually see where their gifts and their greatness is and then to have the wherewithal to embrace it and let that flourish. And yes, they're still gonna have to learn something, probably in an area that they're not as strong in. But if you focus on the strength it gives them I almost hear you saying it gives them the energy to allow themselves to work on that which is hard, or it does not come easily, because you have already strengthened them at their gift and at their core.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You're really talking about seeing a person for who they are and appreciating that in relationship. I mean, i hear love here, even though you haven't said love. It feels like loving the person that they are within. That is great.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And allowing that to drive the rest of the student through their journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have to truly love one another for that And I love people. And we don't get, ellen. We don't get in life what we want. We get in life what we are. That's what, whoever you think you are, that's what you're gonna get. So if you think you're great, you're gonna act great, your character's gonna line up with what you think And you're gonna produce that constantly. So people need to stop thinking you get what you want. No, you don't. You get who you are in life. So if you are a winner, you're gonna win, all right.
Speaker 2:If you're a person that don't think you're gonna win, you're not gonna win, and so those things are so, so powerful, and so that's why it's important to establish that relationship with a student in the classroom To really help them see man, i am great, what I have inside of me and what I'm sharing with my peers is a valuable asset, because my lived experience, my life, does matter. And so by sharing that in the classroom with my peers, letting them see my lived experiences and how I've grown and developed, it really helps them to see man, i am somebody, i have what it takes. I'm a winner, i'm successful, i'm gonna do this, and so that this only empowers them to continue to move forward, and that's what we need. We need less of. And that takes a special person in the classroom.
Speaker 2:Ellen, you know a lot of people are not gifted to teach. I'm just gonna be honest. A lot of people that's not their gift, that's just something. Well, i'm good at it, okay, you might be good at it, but you might not be the teacher that they need in this class. So it's a difference, ellen. It really is a difference, for having a teacher.
Speaker 2:A teacher can teach anybody. A teacher, i don't care who you are, a teacher can teach anybody, on any level, at any place, at any time, and can bring the most out of that student. That's a teacher. And so we have a lot of people that may be intelligent in the classroom intelligent professors, intelligent instructors, but their gift is not teaching it, and so it's a gap there And our students are suffering because of that gap, because of the system, the system, and so the system, like I said, it's not set up for us to be successful. So you need people like myself that can help students of color be able to navigate this system, be able to thrive in this system, not just be because we're not. I don't Ellen. We're not common, we're uncommon, because everyone is different, everyone is especially unique, and so we need to embrace that in the classroom Instead of saying that doesn't matter. Thank you.
Speaker 1:And that is a hard truth to know that there are the instructors and teachers, some of whom really do have a gift of enlivening and enlightening and activating every student they have into the material. And then the challenges. when we do not always have that, and I think every person is probably experienced teachers, hopefully on both ends of that spectrum, to have had also someone great. When you think about the future of education and where education is going, where do you see yourself and where do you see progress happening fastest or most beneficial for students?
Speaker 2:Well, where I see myself is as a college president. I see myself as a college president.
Speaker 2:I see myself as someone who is going to revolutionize higher education. I'm going to change this. I'm going to burn it down to the ground and build it back up, because that's what we need. We don't. It's time out for these band-aids. They don't work, the system was never built for us and we need to build our own system. We need to build a system that truly embraces greatness, truly embraces the gifts that people bring to the table, truly embraces lived experiences When you take those into the classroom. Having a classroom become more dynamic and more inclusive, where everyone can share their viewpoint, because life hits everyone differently, and that is more powerful than any textbook anybody could ever write. The lived experiences should facilitate the classroom. Yes, the textbook, you know, has its place, but it's not the focal point. The lived experiences and how we can change things, how it's relevant to our lives today, really is the key in our classroom Getting our students to feel it's okay to be vulnerable in a class, it's okay to let this out, and I don't have to be ashamed because, hey, i grew up and we got our lights turned off, or we didn't have anything to eat, or, you know, we don't even have a car, or you know it doesn't matter, because everyone's life is important. Everyone brings something unique and special to the table And you create that type of learning environment. Ellen, you're going to have students that want to come back, be like man. I can't wait to go back to Dr Clark's class man, this dude here. He really does love us and he wants the best for us. Yeah, that's what I want from them. I want them to see how they can change the world, because they are world changers, and I want to enable them, i want to activate the gifts that are in them so they go out there and they change the world, moving forward. And so that's why I see myself as a college, but I don't see myself just as a figurehead. I see myself as someone that's going to be a catalyst to change, to start forming colleges and universities that really do assess students this way, that really do teach this way, embrace every nationality across the world, because we all bring something unique into the classroom And we all have gifts, gifts that I believe we've been given.
Speaker 2:But a lot of times, ellen, it doesn't birth because we quit. Why do we quit? Because we had no one in the stands cheering for us along the way. They didn't meet a Torreo, they didn't meet an Ellen, they didn't meet any of those great people out there that was going to encourage them and help them, inspire them along the way They quit on the highway to success. So they never really got the birth force, the greatness that was in them, and I don't want that to happen to anybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everyone I come in contact with, i want to add value to them and I want them to know you have greatness in you, but it's up to you. You have to make the choice. Do you want your greatness to come out? I'm here to help, but only you, only you can bring it forth, only you can. And so, just trying to instill that into them, let them know they do bring some awesome things into this world And I want them to release it.
Speaker 2:So I see myself as someone who's going to change higher education. I look at myself as someone who's going to add value to people all over the world. I look at myself as someone that's going to. People want to know when they hear me. They may not meet me physically, but they're going to hear my voice. He believes in me. All right, all right. So come on. So you know I believe in you, so believe in yourself. So I see that, i just see that, ellen, i just, i just love people. I want them to be the best that they can be. That's why I'm here. I'm here to help others discover their greatness.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I'm operating my purpose every day. I'm here that God has given me. So now I'm on fire for this, because that's me, that's who I am, that's my life, and so the things I thought were bad for me in my life really were good for me, because, as I look now and reflect back on those hard times growing up, i'm able to help a whole lot of people and I have the fire and the passion and the fuel to keep going forward.
Speaker 1:There is so much richness out of everything I've been able to hear you say in this conversation this morning the, the, the mastermind that you sort of taught yourself around how to move through the barrier right Because you had that internal drive to prove people wrong And so you just believed in yourself, sort of despite what everything around you was saying. And then the way that you speak about seeing the student and getting to know their strengths and lighting the fire and being their champion, being the person in the stands I love what you said about there are so many gifts in the world that haven't been realized because somebody quit, because they didn't have somebody cheering them on. I just find that to be so powerful because we do need the relationships with people who can see us and cheer us on to activate our inner potential. I mean, that is that is profound and that feels like a qualification for being a teacher. Can you ignite the gift within a student? What if that were part of the hiring criteria? Not only are you an expert in your subject matter, do you know how to teach it sequentially, are you able to scope and sequence it? But are you able to find that student's gift and turn it on, or just even if they're not the perfect fit teacher for them, right? Can you sprinkle a little bit of fairy dust on there so they keep going right? Because we're all going to have a different ability to impact the student. We can't, as one person, probably, be the perfect teacher for 30 students, but we can create the space for them all to be seen and heard, which is also what you're talking about here.
Speaker 1:I'm imagining in my head this school and it's I don't know. The kids are on these different. They're not really on chairs, they're like they've stacked up whatever they want to sit on and they've got it in different levels and places around the room. There's like conversational dialogue happening that a teacher is facilitating, right? I'm just imagining this really beautiful scene of engaged young people able to be themselves. Some are laying on the floor, some are sitting at a desk. They're just doing what needs to be done. They're all involved in a really deep socratic discussion around something.
Speaker 1:It makes me very happy to imagine this vision that you have, And I can see it with you when you paint it for me. So thank you so much. I'm going to post in the show notes for Dr Clark his email address if anyone is interested in reaching out to connect with him to talk. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we wrap up today, Dr Clark?
Speaker 2:Just anyone that's listening right now. don't give up. Don't give up on your dreams. Don't give up on those things that God has placed in your heart because he gave it to you for a reason. Don't give up on it. I don't care what the situations may look like. I don't care what people are telling you around you.
Speaker 2:Don't listen to the negative thoughts. Don't listen to them. Talk to yourself. tell yourself that you can do it, that you believe in yourself, that you will accomplish those things that you desire to accomplish in life. And so continue to believe that, continue to speak those things and continue to set those ambitious goals. Set ambitious goals. Don't set anything that's easy for you to accomplish. Set some things that you know hey, i could have done this without the grace of God helping me, and so and you'll see how God will bring people around you to help you along your journey, to keep you refreshed, because the journey is a long journey. but, believe me, i tell you I would not tell anyone, i would tell you this the journey is a delightful experience And you will meet some awesome individuals along your journey. I met Ellen along my journey and she has been just truly awesome, just the awesome person that she is And it just flows out of her. You will meet some amazing people that God has destined to be put on your journey, on your path, so you can meet them.
Speaker 2:So don't quit, don't give up. continue to believe in yourself, set those ambitious goals and go after them. Don't worry about failing. Failure is a part of the process. It helps develop your character. Those are character building moments. So when you fail, don't say fail. you say this is another character building moment for me And it's building my character. And I tell you this it's gonna be a wonderful thing. Once you become all that you've been designed to be, you're gonna look back on your journey and you're gonna be like man. you're gonna smile, it's gonna be like it was all worth it And you'll do it again because you know it was all worthwhile.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for being here, Dr Clark. I really appreciate your time. Thank you for being a guest on the show today. It has been a privilege. Thank you, thanks so much for tuning in today and listening to the show. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen And if you love the show, leave a five star review so others can find us. To learn more about my work and what I do, go to ellenwiyomingdolloycom. Thanks. See you next time.