Dr. Karen Paez straddles two worlds and I think it's what really makes her special as a practicioner. She oversees over 1800 people in her day to day as an administrative leader at a community college - and is also a licensed psychologist who is focused on helping other leaders step-in, or deepen their authenticity in their leadership through a therapeutic relationship. Sign me up! I hope you enjoy the episode, and you can learn more about Dr. Karen here: https://www.drkarenpaez.com/
Dr. Karen Paez straddles two worlds and I think it's what really makes her special as a practicioner. She oversees over 1800 people in her day to day as an administrative leader at a community college - and is also a licensed psychologist who is focused on helping other leaders step-in, or deepen their authenticity in their leadership through a therapeutic relationship. Sign me up! I hope you enjoy the episode, and you can learn more about Dr. Karen here: https://www.drkarenpaez.com/
Hi everyone, thanks so much for tuning in to the show. I hope you enjoy my conversation today with Dr Karen Piaz. We dove in on the importance of having a team as a leader and developing that authenticity, especially if you are emerging into a newer leadership role whether you are a leader by title or by just role of what you end up playing in your workplace and how, even if you've been doing it for a while, some of the things we talk about can be really helpful. It was a really enjoyable and enlightening conversation and I hope you like it. Thanks so much.
Speaker 1:Hi, you're listening to the Inner Light with Ellen podcast. I'm your host, ellen Wyoming Deloy. I'm an executive coach, trainer and facilitator who helps people and teams get from where they are to where they want to be through inquiry, reflective listening and by expanding what's possible along the way. On this show, I bring you conversations with leaders and wellness, spirituality, healing, mindfulness and more. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen and, if you love the show, leave a five star review so others can find us. If you want to learn more about my work and what I do, go to EllenWyomingDeloycom. Thanks, enjoy the episode.
Speaker 1:Hi everybody, I'd like to welcome Dr Karen Piaz to the show today. To start working with Karen last year in my consulting capacity and in her role I will let you describe your role but an administrative professional for a community college. But we got to know each other and I know she is now starting up her practice again for psychology and I thought that this would be a really fun opportunity to introduce you to her and to talk a little bit about her work, because I have a feeling that some of you listening might be really interested in knowing more about her. Karen, do you want to introduce yourself a little bit?
Speaker 2:I would love to, and thanks for having me here, ellen, I'm really excited. So who am I, I guess? Personally, I was born and raised in Albuquerque, new Mexico. I now live in Portland, oregon. I have a very neurotic dog who I love to death. She's a rescue named Willow. I love to cook, but I hate recipes, so I make my own. Professionally, I'm a community college administrator. I have the privilege of supporting about 1,800 really incredibly talented faculty staff and managers, and our team provides academic programming to over 50,000 students in the Portland area. And I'm very excited because I'm also trained as a psychologist and I've been missing practicing therapy, and so I'm starting up a part-time private practice where I'll be specializing in supporting leaders in their leadership development, but also in addressing the mental health challenges that come along with being a leader in today's world.
Speaker 1:Oh, I feel like you're starting this practice that you know you could have started it yesterday.
Speaker 1:It's such a there's such a need for the kind of work and service that you want to provide. And what I'm really excited about from just getting to know you and, of course, the like, the portfolio of work that you have is that you're just so well suited to be supporting some people because you straddle a couple of worlds Right. Not every therapist also actively has had the experience of managing and overseeing the work of 1,800 people and managing managers and all of the stresses and fires and complex relationship dynamics that can arise from that, in addition to having their training as a therapist who can help and I know you have to keep your containers a little bit neat sometimes you can't be a therapist at work because you're also being a leader yourself. Let's talk a little bit. Let's talk a little bit about that. When you are working, either in your own role or what you're observing, and others are just people and maybe your community, what are some of the biggest needs that you see people need help with to alleviate their suffering in their roles, so to speak?
Speaker 2:I have to say that, post pandemic, the needs of individuals that I I experience in my world as a leader have changed or I guess would say they've intensified.
Speaker 2:So there has been a focus or feeling really isolated and burnout, and the stress and trauma that has occurred for folks over the last handful of years has taken a toll, both as individuals but also to communities, and that puts a lot of pressure on leaders to develop and hone their skills and providing support and nurturance so that employees have what they need to do their best work.
Speaker 2:And I think that to do our best work we have to be seen. And because we need people to be able to see our shrinks and what we can bring to the table and we have to feel like we have a relationship with those who are supporting us, leading us, where we can take risks, because it takes risks. You taking risks means you can be innovative and creative, where you can make mistakes and learn from those mistakes, and that means that a leader has to be present in a way that requires a lot of skill, like grounding and emotional intelligence and openness, humility, because as leaders we have to be open to understanding that the folks who are on the ground doing the work, know much more about what the solution is to the problems we are trying to solve than we do, and so we have to learn how to ask the right questions and listen, and that means we have to be open ourselves and vulnerable ourselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have to say this is something that I appreciate about you having been able to work with you in the leadership context and in seeing how you lead. If we're thinking about you working with someone in your psychology practice and I know that there's also a lot of new leadership coming into their own I mean, there is every year, right, there are people who are stepping up in their roles and one of the things that I have noticed is that oftentimes maybe not often, but just maybe it depends on the place that there will be people appointed into leadership roles who are technical experts and extremely proficient in their work and their role for when they were executing a task, for their function, for whatever the job was, but then they really struggle when they're the first time manager of people. And what is that? What would that look like? What would be like, let's say, I'm that person and I show up in your office and I'm having stress and anxiety and burnout and like maybe some heart preparations because I don't know if I'm going to do it right and I'm really afraid of messing up.
Speaker 1:This is probably how I would be right. Like I'm kind of tight bay, Like oh my God, I'm going to fail and I needed help, right, and I wanted I wanted the dual benefit of like mental health support, but with somebody who knows what I'm going through, what you do. How would you, how would you counsel me through that? What would what would I mean? Like, literally, you can't give me an hour long session on this hypothesis, I know, but what would that look like, working with one of those like emerging leaders?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say being an emerging leader is tough, so I can. I think therapy is a great place to go if you're an emergency leader, because emerging leader because it is a place where you can really let it all out and be yourself. Because I think when you're an emerging leader, at work there is a pressure that you put on yourselves and maybe also pressure, fairly, that other people put on you to perform in a certain way, to be a certain kind of leader. So in a therapy session, I mean, my first and most important goal is always to work on the therapeutic relationship, so to build trust, to really get to know the person that I'm working with, to understand them, because you have to cultivate that space where folks are able to be vulnerable in order to actually see positive outcomes in therapy. In fact, there's some great research that talks about, regardless of the intervention used by the therapist, the relationship is what actually drives those effective outcomes, less so than the intervention. So that relationship is my number one priority. From there, it's really about starting to understand what are the messages that are coming up for that person when they're in the context of work and where those messages coming from.
Speaker 2:It can be hard being a leader because people, to be quite honest, it's easy to other a leader because it's you know a leader is an authority figure. A leader has a lot of privilege and power. So some of that is perhaps it makes sense why you would be others, that's why you would be othered as a leader. But it can be hard when you're moving into a leadership role to really understand how those power dynamics and the perception people of you have of you are impacting you, and understanding that is so critical to developing as a leader. Because if you walk into a space and assume you have the same amount of power and privilege, you can cause a lot of harm and you actually can distance yourself even more from someone. So part of it is about raising awareness of those dynamics, the messages that are coming to that person. What I find is that most of the messages that have the greatest impact are internal messages that we are telling ourselves.
Speaker 2:We are individuals who, early on in our lives, developed patterns in order to survive, and even if you were in the most loving of households, survival by nature was something that was driving you early on and you developed patterns that either mirrored what your caregivers offered you or did, or that where you created adjustments so that you could create an easier dynamic with your caregivers. Or in some cases, at some point you started to rebel against those dynamics simply because those dynamics were feeling harmful to you. So part of therapy is identifying, when you peel back all of those patterns, who are you really? Who are you at your core? And then, as a leader, how do you bring who you are at your core into your working space? Because really leadership is all about relationships. It's also about vision setting and strategic thinking. But at its core, if you don't have the relationship piece down, you're really hampered in your ability to set vision and strategic direction, because you need those with whom you work to help you, to help inform that.
Speaker 1:So this is so, right, I have two thoughts on this, but I'm going to interrupt you, so go, please. Your thought First thing I wanted to say. So I want to touch in on the relationships and discovering your authentic self in a moment. The first thing you said a little bit earlier was about the power dynamics and recognizing that when you step into leadership, that there's a power imbalance and even if you're the most egalitarian minded person who is like oh, no, no, no, no, but that is not me, it is still there. It's really interesting.
Speaker 1:When I used to work for Oregon Metro, the regional government for the Portland area, I would have a lot of community partnership meetings with different nonprofit community service organizations that were honestly looking for partnership from Metro for grant funding, right, and so it was an opportunity for me to realize immediately. I just noticed people treated me so differently when I would walk into the room because I was representing this giant agency who had hundreds of thousands of dollars of grant funding to figure out how to allocate and I was like, oh, they're treating me this way and it was such a weird because I wasn't a manager of these people and it was just a really interesting dynamic to recognize and I remembered having to explain that to somebody else who was walking around going to these community meetings, and I was like you cannot just say that. You have to realize the weight that it drops with. You can over promise without meaning to, and it means a lot more when you say it versus when someone else says it, and so I just think that that's so important. I think that it doesn't get recognized a lot because a lot of people coming into leadership really do think that they're, you know, fair minded, equity minded, yeah, and it made me think this is an equity principle, right. Like how are we sharing power in this room? How can we be more, more socially just? How are we racially inclusive? Who does hold the power here and what is that impact having on this conversation? Do I need to step back a little bit, because that's what's needed right now, versus when I was in my, like, more technician role, I was advocating all the time, but if I keep doing that it's going to burn some bridges. So super fascinating. Sorry, I just wanted to say that, I guess.
Speaker 1:And then the other piece. I wanted to ask a question. Yeah, because I think this is so tenuous, right, If you're working with an emerging leader and there's a sense of performance right when people come up. They go to college or they don't go to college, but they get a lot of experience in this other way and they kind of come up in these different conditions and cultures from whatever background they're coming from, and they end up into these leadership roles and let's say they're like hitting that wall. There's like this burnout and fear and maybe just a lot of anxiety or just stress, and they come to see you and you're helping them peel back these layers and then suddenly there's this authenticity piece. But then they're in such a public space being looked at by so many more people at once.
Speaker 1:How do you help someone? Like, what's the magic trick right? How do you help someone start to build some? It's really funny that I'm going to ask this comfort and vulnerability what happens to help, encourage and support someone as they start to experience what that's like, because I've met a lot of armored leaders who are not comfortable in vulnerability and just keep operating the way that they're sort of operating, and I can see the detriment that it creates. So what does it look like to help someone to do it the other way?
Speaker 2:It takes a lot of bravery to be an authentic leader, for all the reasons you just mentioned. And the reality is, what will reinforce that behavior is when you allow yourself to go to that place and you experience what it is like to connect with people from that place. What are the outcomes? Because it is a gift. When you enter a vulnerable space and someone enters that vulnerable space with you, amazing things can be felt and experienced and, honestly, in a work context, can be realized. It takes a testing that out and seeing what that's like, and it doesn't always go well.
Speaker 2:I mean, there have been times where I have shown up and been vulnerable and I feel like maybe that vulnerability has been taken advantage of and that's where I've had to learn and I'm still learning. How do I set boundaries in the way I show up? And yet, even with a boundary, how am I myself my compassionate, full, authentic self in doing that? It does not happen overnight. I am still learning how to do this myself.
Speaker 2:But it can only be experienced and reinforced by doing it and that's the difficult thing and sometimes I think in therapy it offers us the opportunity to look at what has happened in your past that has created that armor and what healing do you need to do now so that you can begin to pull back that armor and that work? That's very deep psychological work. It is also very fulfilling because it will not only support someone in their leadership development but it supports you in your relationships. It supports you in, quite honestly, in your relationship with yourself, which is ultimately the most important relationship of all. So that's work that's going to have to happen regardless of whether or not you're a leader. But it becomes especially important in leadership because of that power that you hold and you can be transformational if you figure out how to move into those spaces in brave ways.
Speaker 1:And I know that that would be such a beautiful but also you'd have to be brave to lean into that that kind of therapeutic relationship with somebody to do that Absolutely. What else is interesting or important for people to know for you as you embark on re-establishing your psychology practice? What would you want people to know?
Speaker 2:I think I'd want people to know that it's a new day when it comes to being a leader, that we have for a long time had a vision of what leadership looks like that, quite transparently, was very male, dominated, was very white, a more dominant value system around, what it looks like to be a leader. There is so much heartache and pain in our world right now that the only kind of healing that will happen is through a healing where we have leadership that is willing, that are willing to push against that status quo version of leadership, to be brave, to show up boldly, to listen and learn from those who your decisions are impacting. When we do that, when we are inclusive and we offer a seat at the table to those who are most impacted by our decisions, that is where we will have an opportunity to transform society. And that is hard and that is where it's important for leaders who are willing to show up in that heart-centered way.
Speaker 2:You have to develop a network of support and whether it's a therapist or whether it's a friend or a coach or whatever, it is essential that you have a strong network and that, as you're cultivating that network, you're thinking about who are the kinds of people I need in this network so that I can thrive, because it's not just the people that think like us. That's not what's going to make us thrive. You need to have somebody who is going to be the devil's advocate. You do need to have somebody who's your cheerleader and who sees you and is going to boost you up. You need to have somebody who is going to be your truth teller and who's going to be like that mirror for you and say okay, and that mirror can be like a compassionate mirror, like you're saying this about yourself or you're acting in this way. But I see something so different here, like thinking through what do I need to thrive? But not just kind of what we have always done, probably as human beings, which is going to people who are like us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what is so striking to me about this answer, about what to know that you're explaining, is how closely it aligns with equity, diversity and inclusion work and in the way that shifting from cultures of dominance to cultures of equity. So my colleague, nathan Baptiste and I do an equity, belonging and leadership academy series. We've run it through actually your institution as well as other agencies that we're working with, and it's the what is so interesting. There's like a couple of things about it. Everything that you're naming here is about the shift that everyone is yearning for so deeply to be recognized, seen, heard, respected not necessarily for everyone to be in charge of this, that or the other, but for each of us to have a voice in informing the shape and to have a space there to be able to participate in the shaping of the spaces, so that the space is not so dominantly centered, with only the people who look like this, act like this, think like this. And then those are where the decisions are made from. And it is trickier, it is more complex, it does take more time and it's exceptionally relationship based as opposed to hierarchically based, based on rank, whether that be through appointment or merit, which is so much of what our history is, and I think that you're right. I think it is in helping empower those who really want to become. That it's really helpful.
Speaker 1:I also think what's really interesting about what you're talking about in terms of leadership leadership might be, by title, right People who are in certain positions and workplace, but so much of what I've seen in doing the equity work like when, when I work on some of the things that you're talking about, it's usually through an equity lens, through some kind of a training or academy or workshop series. It's working with people who often are not the leaders and we get so frustrated. Those groups get so frustrated. They're like why isn't our exact team here? They're the ones who need to hear this and we're constantly saying this is a top down and a bottom up approach and at this point, for where your agency is at, they've hired us to help you here and we know just as much as you know that it's frustrating that your top layer of people who make these decisions that do come down to you aren't here. And there's this way that you can start to lead, where you can start to steer, and I think that that's a really important quality to capture, because if you can be in that authentic self and then learn how to navigate that. There's a shift that can happen because of the way you become a role model that is different than someone else's and that can be positively noticed and reinforced.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, I will be honest, the system can chomp that and spit it out because the system doesn't like it. It happens, but I mean, maybe that's better for that person to be finding something different. I don't want to say that that should be the outcome. My hope is that the outcome is like oh, we have an opportunity to accept this person and shift so that we can be better together. I think that was it.
Speaker 1:Just thinking really about emerging leadership. And then my joy when we had a conversation last week with an agency not yet to be named, that is throwing us at their exact leadership. I'm like, yes, nice, we're going to get the top layer somewhere and that'll be really great. Yeah, and I think that's because it really does. It does take leadership in different ways, positions and consistency to turn that tight. I mean, we are not where we were 60 years ago, very different. It didn't feel fast enough for anybody and yet it's like a shock to the system to go look at something from 60 years ago and go, whoa, that's what my parents grew up in his children, yes, or grandparents, depending on how old you are. Yeah, it's inspiring to do this work.
Speaker 2:It is inspiring and I really appreciate what you're saying about the. I guess the word leader can be, you know, executive, but really a leader can be anywhere in an organization. It is more a set of qualities and kind of way of being. If we maintain this connection or this, this schema that leaders are entitled only, we really are going to end up harming what we are looking for in terms of the mission and value of whatever organization you work for. There are leaders everywhere who are going to, and if you listen and learn from them, you're going to find that there are really incredible things that come from that.
Speaker 2:But that means you've got to have enough trust, be willing to be vulnerable enough yourself to say I don't need to be in that room, I don't need to be in that space. I am going to defer to this person who I know has value. I mean, really what we're talking about, Ellen, is where do we find value? Who do we find value in? And if a leader is not finding value in those that they are there to support and I make a very conscious choice of saying I'm not saying those you are leading, those you are supporting that's important to me as a leader myself, because the folks I am supporting are the people that are doing the work on the ground. I have to value them, I have to trust them. Yes, I also have to steer the ship in a direction that is hopefully going to help us transform in as time goes on and as we become clearer about what our values are and what we hope to accomplish. But I have to build relationships and find value in those with whom I work in order to be successful.
Speaker 1:You're reminding me of the other point I was going to say earlier that I lost for a second is I appreciate so much. The definition of leadership that you're presenting to us here is so much more about we than it is about I, and I think that that's one of those things like a little kid will be like when I'm the leader, I'm the president. It's all about me making that choice and everyone follows along because it's simple. It's a very cute things that kids do because they just really do want to have their way, because also they have such limited power in so many situations. It's adjusting that narrative as the children age, become young adults, become the people who help support others, into saying oh, this is the leadership, this is why the town functions, the village functions, the community functions, the workplace functions.
Speaker 1:Hopefully, it's about we and when you were talking about having your devil's advocate, your truth teller, this a community of people that can support you in the role that you've been I almost want to say like the role that you've been deemed responsible for. Right, it's like a huge responsibility and you're not doing it in a silo. I think a lot of people do end up doing it in a silo, and so the healthier approach and getting support with a therapist, with a coach, with somebody to be on their team is to de-silo the leadership so that also, you don't have to be responsible for the full burden yes, you may have to be the one who signs on the dotted line and it can be informed through dialogue, through relationships, to make sure that the choices and the direction and the vision and the values are aligned in support of like, the greatest good.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so well said. Yeah, I love that. It is a group effort and I have to say too, I have a lot of compassion for folks who are leading differently, because I think, like you said, the little boy who's saying I want to be the leader, there was a reason that that little boy wanted to be that leader. And when that little boy becomes a man and is a leader, he's gonna carry that into his adulthood and into the way he leads. And that's where I feel like the power of therapy really comes in, because it's deconstructing, it's getting in touch with that little boy that's in that full grown man. Why is being a leader so important to you? The leader that you think you know, leader in quotes. What happened that led to that? Who sent you messages? That? That's what a leader was and is that really serving you now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it would almost be like what's the thing underneath not leading this way?
Speaker 1:Because, there's a value system that's attached to it which can be incredibly disempowering, and I can see a lot of people shutting down at it completely, being like we're not gonna talk about that because then they won't be seen as the person I need to be seen as to be successful or survive. And so, again, this is that invitation, for if a person starts to notice that this style of leadership is really affecting business outcomes, relationship outcomes, quality of product, like whatever the widget is that someone is producing, this is that time to go wow, right, maybe midlife seems to be a good time to have enough experience to realize where things work and don't work, and we're the only thing sometimes in our own way, and to wanna have to take that step, to get vulnerable and see that, yeah, and the compassion for that. I think that let's focus on that a little bit more, because it can't be everyone's fault for the systems that we're inside of.
Speaker 1:But I do like this phrase once you know better, do better. But let's back it up a teeny little bit right when they don't know better, when people don't know better and someone might be listening to this being like these two people don't know better. And sure we might have extremely different world views on what this can look like, and you're rooted in experience for therapeutic interventions to alleviate suffering and improve quality of life in the workplace. Like you know what that's about, so I'd say you're evidence-based.
Speaker 2:Right, absolutely. Yeah, my way is not always the right way. I mean. That's the other thing, though, too. Like if there is someone who resonates with what we are saying, then there's the magic of connecting to someone with whom you resonate, or there's curiosity there.
Speaker 2:We all need to find the people, though, like I said before, that are complementary to us in some way, that fit for us in some way, and talk about a power dynamic. Therapy has incredible power dynamics. Right, like you know, you are asking someone to be at their most vulnerable and, of course, we ease into it in a way that works for someone. It is. That is a power dynamic, and so there is vulnerability there, and for many leaders, that is really scary, because it's very new to be in that space of letting go completely, because there's so much pressure on leaders to not make mistakes I mean, they have accountability to a whole lot of people and to the bottom line and, you know, to many things and so that level of pressure does often create for people. You have to, like some people, to cope with that, stiffen up and create that armor, just because it's so overwhelming.
Speaker 1:And I wanted to touch on that a little bit more. Even if we maybe don't like how someone is leading and maybe we wish that they would be different, and maybe, if I'm not directly affected by them, developing my capacity for that compassion for the situation that all of us are in at different times, but particularly those who affect us possibly the most. I'm not saying to like let everyone walk on you, right, there's not that, but the compassion to be held for those who don't yet know that there could be like a better way to build the relationship, a better way to lead. Karen, what would you, what advice would you have? I do think therapy is like destigmatized completely in my brain at this point, like everybody should have a therapist, everybody should have somebody supporting them. I'm like on board for everyone to have that.
Speaker 1:I think some people may not have that permission. I'm not everybody. I don't speak for anyone but myself. What would be your advice to somebody who is feeling that tug? I would like to go see somebody like Karen. I think it could really be helpful. What advice do you give to someone who's maybe a little bit nervous about starting?
Speaker 2:Well, my first piece of advice is listen to yourself and honor yourself. So if therapy is not does not feel right for you, honor that, but it is. There are many other ways to achieve therapeutic outcomes other than therapy. You'll see Ellen as a coach. She's amazing.
Speaker 2:I also they'll think that it's a reminder that therapy is confidential, that you know your information is protected. You don't have to tell anybody that you're going to therapy. If you choose not to tell anybody, I know there are some people who are willing to share openly and that's great. I think it does help destigmatize therapy when people do that, but it's not required to tell people. So that's the other piece. And then I think too, the other piece is you know, try it out. If you're willing, if that feels right to you, Try it out and you can decide not to do it.
Speaker 2:It's also very important for me to share. If you try it out and it doesn't feel like the right fit for you, it's okay to say to that therapist I don't think this is the right fit and go try someone else, because that relationship dynamic does matter so much. As I mentioned before, it is so important and you deserve someone that you click with. It's plain and simple Don't suffer through it. Don't just go because you think you should be going. Make sure it's something that actually is serving you.
Speaker 1:I think that that's really important to emphasize because there can be a tendency, especially if you're new to trying therapy, that you know all therapists are supposed to know the same thing. They're trained a specific way. How can I judge them? I should just go through with it. I must be being a patient wrong. Like I can think of all of these situations that someone might run through their mind and, yes, be empowered to listen to yourself, let that be a first active therapy, and say this doesn't feel right to me. Thank that therapist for their time and try somebody different. Maybe even ask for a referral. Like I think therapists will understand that. Like, don't be afraid of offending your therapist. Yes, they know that you have to make choices for yourself. That's the whole point, and so if you're doing it, it's wonderful, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And, honestly, the therapist wants a good fit too.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, the coach also wants a good fit.
Speaker 2:It is, having a sort of a good connection is beneficial to both parties.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, and I know in my practice as a coach that that's why I like to meet with somebody first prior to them becoming a client, because I can tell if we're gonna work or not. And sometimes I know somebody who I know that they would really click with, like I'm like, oh, I think that you would actually like this person really a lot, and or they're working on an issue in terms of coaching at least, that I'm like. That's not actually my area of expertise. I'd love to pass you to someone else and give you a couple of names to interview, because that would be really important. It's so important Because otherwise it's a weird relationship with reduced outcomes, because and I love that there's evidence to this that relationship drives outcomes more than just the intervention.
Speaker 1:It's how we're so wired to connect and we need to connect with the right people sometimes, and maybe they're like us, maybe they're not like us. It's about the connection Sounds so therapeutic because of the initial thing you said. For this time period and where people are feeling so isolated and continue to feel isolated, it's finding that therapeutic connection, whether it be with a therapist, whether it be with a new friend that you've met, who shares experiences that you can like have a drink over.
Speaker 2:Therapy is. The connection is part of the healing, as well as the learning and the skills that are developed. But that connection there's something called a corrective emotional experience, which means that if you have experienced some kind of challenge in a relationship with someone else and you, with a therapist or with anyone else, have the opportunity to experience it differently, in a more healing manner, you can. That's how healing happens, because we are able to see that things can be different and experience the benefits of a connection that is healthy and functional. Doesn't have to happen in therapy, but that is one of the drivers of what makes therapy so useful.
Speaker 1:I have loved hearing about this from you today and I'm excited about the launching of your new practice. We are going to link it in the show notes, along with the Dr Kairan Piazz's website. Are there any last thoughts that you'd like to share with us today before we?
Speaker 2:go. I guess my last thought is just if you're someone who's listening to this, that who you believe you're a leader, whether with that title or without. Just know that you are seen and you're appreciated and that the energy and passion and drive and all the things that you are giving to whatever you are leading is meaningful and helpful. I know that leaders don't get a lot of appreciation, so just sending that out to those listening that you're appreciated.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you, Ellen.
Speaker 2:I appreciate you too.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for tuning in today and listening to the show. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen and, if you love the show, leave a five star review so others can find us. To learn more about my work and what I do, go to ellenwiamingdolloycom. Thanks. See you next time.