Episode 19: Tea

Rozhovor s Američanem Kenem, který je čajový expert a sám sobě si dal přezdívku "tea geek". Kde na světe pijí čaj v té nejzvláštnější podobě? Kdy a kde se čaj začal pít? Je pití čaje zdravé? A proč je pro něj čajový pytlík absolutní noční můrou?

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The World of Tea

Speaker 1 0:02

Welcome to the English-speaking podcast on this hill . My name is Pavlina and every week I will talk to my parents about the different interesting topics of the whole English-speaking world . And that's all from me . Thank you very much for watching this video . We can start . If you like this podcast and would like to support it , you can use Patreon at patreoncom .

Speaker 2 0:38

So , hi everybody , it is my great honor to welcome my guest for this episode , ken Cohen . Hi , ken , how are you today ?

Speaker 3 0:45

Good Pavlina , how are you ?

Speaker 2 0:47

I'm very well . It's early morning for you in the US , right , a little bit , yeah . So , ken , you are an actor , you do voiceovers , you produce audiobooks and , last but not least , you are , as you described yourself , a T-Gee . Is that correct ?

Speaker 2 1:03

Yes , yes , Very much so yes , so that's quite convenient because today we're going to be talking about tea . So is that your favorite topic in the whole wide world ? One of them , yes , so you do produce your own podcast called Talking Tea , where you talk to experts and sellers and tea drinkers , I suppose , as well . So you are one of them , I would think .

Speaker 3 1:26

I am a tea drinker . I'm drinking tea right now .

Speaker 2 1:28

yes , Good , and what kind of tea are you drinking ?

Speaker 3 1:32

So this is a tea called Gu Zhu Zi Sun and it is actually from a tea garden that was a Chinese imperial tea garden . Tea was grown there to give to the emperor , but tea was . I picked it today because tea was grown in this location as early as the 8th century . You know that because a very famous tea author , lu Yu , who wrote a book called the Classic of Tea in the 8th century , in the Tang Dynasty , he grew tea at this location , so it has some historical background . It's also a delicious tea , but it's a green tea and it's a very , very old location .

Speaker 2 2:10

Oh , nice and well . Obviously , tea is not just a hot drink that warms us up during winter , and in many countries the connection with the culture and people is undeniable . So I'm wondering what countries would you consider have the tradition of drinking tea ingrained the deepest ?

Speaker 3 2:28

Well , china , obviously , because tea is indigenous to China . It originated in China . It's been drunk in China for at least 2,200 years at least , probably earlier than that . The earliest archaeological evidence that I know of it might be something earlier , was from a tomb of a Han dynasty emperor , about 2,200 years ago . That was a few years ago . That was found , and one historian at least said it was probably drunk before the Han dynasty .

Speaker 3 2:56

Han dynasty began 3rd century BCE , so we're talking about a very old culture in China . It was popularized in China more widely , starting in the Tang dynasty with people like Lu Yu , so around the time when tea was grown in this location . So it's ingrained in the culture and , of course , by extension , taiwan . Whenever I meet somebody from Taiwan and I mentioned something about tea , they say well , of course I know tea , I grew up in Taiwan , everybody knows tea in Taiwan . And Japan picked it up from China very early on , also in the Song dynasty probably , but a little bit later , but also at least 1,000 years . And Japan has its own traditions , both in terms of everyday tea drinking , which was later , and tea ceremony , which also has been going on for about almost 1,000 years . And then you have well , india , of course , has the culture of chai .

Speaker 3 3:48

It's more recent , 19th century or late 19th century Russia . I was talking to someone recently , lena Medvedeva , who owns a floating mountain tea . She's based in New York now but is from Siberia actually , and she would just saying how in Russia . I asked her about Russian tea culture and she said one this when you go to someone's house and in Russia the first thing they do is offer you tea . It's cold out , so it's you for off for tea , it's not , or vodka . Of course the UK has a tea tradition , ireland and of course these are more recent , and of course the Czech Republic has a fight phenomenal tea culture , but that's only the past . What 30 years or so , I think the child knows .

Speaker 3 4:30

Yeah , yeah , yeah , that's very true Actually so you have it all over the world . But East Asia is where Korea has a tea culture , but not as ingrained as China , taiwan , japan , but certainly it's . It's those countries I would say it's most ingrained .

Speaker 2 4:45

And have you ever experienced any bizarre way of tea being served to you that left you completely puzzled and perplexed ?

Speaker 3 4:53

What perplexes me that so many people , especially here in the US , drink very low quality tea when there's so much good quality tea out there at moderate prices , at reasonable prices , and people still gravitate to really it's not always so cheap , but really bad , very low quality Commercial tea , and there's no that it's to me that's the most propeller . That's why I started the podcast to spread knowledge and awareness of tea as a really complex Beverage , more complex even than wine .

Speaker 2 5:28

Of course . And well , now that you mentioned low quality tea , so do you think that tea , drinking tea , is actually healthy , if we take into account everything that's now connected with , you know , today's agriculture , pesticides and all this negative stuff ?

Speaker 3 5:45

well , I can't speak Authoritatively on pesticides because I really don't know what's being used with tea . I'll give you one example , though . I was in a very high-end tea house in New York , which has been the one of the places where I've recorded a number of episodes on talking to you and the owner of the tea house gave me , she served me , I was , we were there recording an episode , and then , after the episode , she gave me a really Expensive green tea on the house . She didn't charge me for it , she prepared it for me and as she poured it , I see something floating in the water and it was an insect . And I said to her I think there's something she said without pesticides . It happens sometimes . You know , this was a very small batch tea and it never happened again and the tea was excellent quality , really really high quality . It happens . So . So yes , I can't speak about pesticides . I know the one guest on one of my episodes told me once that you know , and his name is also Ken Cohen Also , he's also a tea , he's a qigong and Chinese medicine expert . We have the same name and we've only met once or twice in person person , I think and . But he told me that , yes , organic is important and we actually talked in that episode about the episode is called the G of tea about which certifications are better and so forth . So I can't really speak authoritatively on pesticides .

Speaker 3 7:10

We do know that tea has some beneficial and I'm I hesitate to talk about health benefits of tea because it's very controversial , for example . So just an example . Okay , so K as a interest in If a person truly can't tolerate caffeine at all , then tea might be a problem for them . But we do know that tea has antioxidants which are beneficial to one's health . Different teas have them in different quantities . There is a chart in a book you can buy that actually shows that companies , commission studies , lab studies on caffeine content and antioxidant content in teas . I'm not a medical expert so I can't comment on the various effects of antioxidants . But aside from that we know that tea is healthy because , assuming you don't put sugar in it , it's not alcoholic . And more and more I'm hearing that alcohol just really isn't very good for you . I do drink alcohol in small quantities , but more and more I'm hearing it's just not a good thing for people to do .

Speaker 3 8:10

In tea you have a tremendous spectrum of flavors , incredibly vast . You have connection to nature , especially if you take loose leaf tea and brew it yourself . You're dealing with the leaves , as opposed to the little tea bag that you're dipping . So you're having a psychological and spiritual connection with the source of the beverage . The leaves are right there . It can involve all of your senses your sense of smell , your sense of taste , your sense of sight . The color of the leaves , the color of the brewed tea , when you look at it , can be very beautiful and it's relaxing . Tea has the only beverage in the world , the human's drink , that has a chemical compound called theanine , which is relaxing . It's a natural sedative quality Tea has . Theanine is also an amino acid . So for people who might want to benefit , I don't know what the benefits of amino acids are , but I understand there are some . So there are a number of health benefits to tea that I think we can talk about generally , without going into the details of what those health benefits might do for specific people .

Speaker 2 9:15

And now that you mentioned tea bags and loose leaf tea , so here in Sweden I once met a girl from Iran and she was absolutely horrified and appalled by the thought of tea in tea bags . So she explained to me that the Persian way of tea preparation just only calls for loose leaf tea , nothing else . So I'm wondering are you also horrified by the thought of a tea bag ?

Speaker 3 9:41

There are some tea bags where the companies put whole leaves in the tea bags . You can actually make a tea bag yourself If you , for example , the persons at work and I used to do this many years ago now working at home , most of the time it doesn't make a difference , but in an office where I wanted to have some good tea , you could buy a little packet of tea sachets and you can put the loose leaf in the tea sachet and you can prepare it . It's much better than the commercial tea bag usually . But there are some companies that put some vendors that put really high quality tea in biodegradable tea . Usually they're in the shape of pyramids and I'm not partial to those , but they're pretty good .

Speaker 3 10:25

The problem with the tea bags is twofold . Number one usually it's lower quality tea . Secondly , what tea bags contain usually are what euphemistically called tea fannings and what's less euphemistically called floor sweepings or tea dust . But basically , when the better leaves are sorted , what's left over , which are these very fine particles , are usually what go into tea bags because they brew quicker . But it's also that you're not going to get the depth of flavor that you're going to be getting , even if it's a good quality tea . You're not going to be getting the depth of flavor from this tea dust , which is what it is . It's dust .

Speaker 3 11:18

I say floor sweepings because I'm told I can't verify this , but I have been told that in some producers it's actually what falls onto the floor that's swept up with an industrial sort of vacuum cleaner type of device that goes into the tea bags . I've not seen it , I can't verify that , but I've been told that by one person , two people who've seen it happen in tea producers in Asia , and one person's a tea vendor . So I thought it was resources . Again , I haven't seen it , so I can't verify it . And I can't verify that it happens in every producer . But even if it's not , even if it's sorted more carefully , it's going to be the lowest grade of leaf that you get in tea bags In most cases , not in all cases .

Speaker 2 12:06

Yeah , and so you , as an American , what is ? Can you tell us what's the general way of tea consumption in the US ?

Speaker 3 12:13

Oh , I think it's definitely cheap tea bags , yes .

Speaker 2 12:17

Yeah , and how do you like the British way of drinking tea , milk and sugar ?

Speaker 3 12:21

Well , I mean , there are some British people who drink tea without milk and sugar and there too it depends on the quality of the tea . What I've heard is that the quality and what I've seen is the quality of British tea today is not that dissimilar from the quality of American commodity tea . These teas that are mass produced and mass marketed are generally not very good quality . The lower quality a lot of tea bags , unfortunately , where there was a very strong tradition in the UK of brewing much better quality tea .

Explore the Depth and Variety of Tea

Speaker 3 12:55

As for adding milk and sugar , I have , I've never been partial to sugar .

Speaker 3 12:59

I never liked sugar in tea , even when I was drinking cheaper quality tea when I was growing up , when you know , we didn't know about better quality tea then , at least not in my family . We had slightly better because my mother's family is from Ukraine . So there was more of a some of more of a tea drinking tradition there , Sometimes by better quality Russian teas if we could get them . But other relatives of mine would put sugar in . I never did . I do put milk in . If it's once in a while for an a sum for british style tea , I might . I might put some milk in when I drink chai . Sometimes I drink drink indian style chai with the spices , but with , not with no sugar or milk . But I'll put milk and sugar sometime in the tradition to create a full traditional chai . It can be quite good again there too . I think you need to start with good quality tea leaves and you can get good quality tea leaves without spending a lot of money .

Speaker 2 13:50

People think it's complicated to prepare and expensive , and it's really neither you're absolutely right , because I just remembered when I worked in this office in london , we were ordering tea and it came in this like gargantuan massive bags and there must have been like 500 tiny teabags in that bag . And yeah , it was . It was very , very cheap , very cheap and it was not very good , right , and that's what people drink actually every day .

Speaker 3 14:21

So so you almost need milk and sugar to make it palatable yeah , probably just consumable .

Speaker 2 14:28

And have you ever tried Tibetan style ? Because when I googled this , I I this . I found very interesting that they add butter and salt yes , yeah , it was actually .

Speaker 3 14:41

Uh , I believe it was butter , salt and milk . When I drank it at least , it seemed milky . There's a every year . This year it didn't happen because of covid , but every year in my neighborhood is a . In november there's a Tibetan fair to raise money for one of the Tibetan community organizations and at this fair they always serve Tibetan tea . So I tried it once and I didn't actually taste any tea . I tasted the salt . I'm a butter .

Speaker 3 15:05

Uh , we actually in one of my episodes about dark tea because Tibetans in Tibet , they traditionally drank the lesser known category of tea called dark tea , which is not too well known outside of china , more known now than it used to be . So we talked about the problem with , with the quality of tea in Tibet and and my guests in that episode , uh , phil and Jen from Gen T it's actually one of their teas I'm drinking today said that there was a lot of poverty in Tibet still is , so people can't really afford good quality tea . They were working with one producer to try to market to people in Tibet a higher , like a medium grade tea , not high quality , but medium quality , better than what they were getting , which could be drunk without butter and salt , which was good by itself , or you could add things to what I suppose it was a pretty good tea . I don't know if it's still being made , but it was pretty good , very potent , energy wise and are you a coffee drinker too ?

Speaker 2 16:00

now that you talk about energy , I used to .

Speaker 3 16:02

I grew up in a coffee drinking family . Very few people drank tea . I was one of the few that drank tea as a teenager . But I started drinking tea for two reasons . One was because I all of a sudden in high school developed an intolerance to coffee . So I love coffee but I can't drink it . I I try it once in a while , but it doesn't , it doesn't agree with me . The other reason I started drinking tea was because I already had developed an interest in chinese history and japanese history and I felt , well , if I'm reading about this , I should be , I should be experiencing the culture , um , somehow at home , and that tea was the easiest way to do that . So , but no , I love coffee and I wish I could drink it , but I just can't . But also , tea does have more depth of flavors than coffee . The spectrum of flavors in tea is broader and I've heard this from people in the coffee industry , that tea just has a broader spectrum of flavors . It's more interesting than coffee .

Speaker 2 16:52

Well , that's perfect . And well , last but not least , what is it that makes it so magical for you about tea ?

Speaker 3 17:00

I think two things . One is the depth of flavor . I mean in this tea this morning . It's okay I don't have any left in my cup now , but in this tea this morning I could taste sweet vegetable notes . There was a sweetness .

Speaker 3 17:14

We think of tea as being bitter or savory , but good quality tea , even good quality green tea , can be very sweet and oolongs some of the high mountain oolongs from Taiwan . It's like the first time I tasted a good quality oolong from Taiwan . This was when I really got interested in high quality tea . Friends of mine had given me this tea and I came home and prepared it and I had never tasted anything like it before . The aroma was like walking through a garden of flowers , but there were no flowers added to the tea . It wasn't a jasmine tea , it was just tea leaves .

Speaker 3 17:48

And that's what's so amazing about tea that that particular tea , because of the way it was grown , where it was grown , the varietal , the cultivar , the tea has cultivars . Just like apples have cultivars you have gala and you have Fuji and so forth the tea has hundreds and hundreds of cultivars . So the cultivars are going to taste different , even though it's all from the same plant . Like apples , all come from . The apple tree Tea comes from the same plant , but the processing , the cultivar , the terroir like in wine the place it's grown , the climate , all of these can create such tremendous variety and flavors .

Speaker 3 18:24

And within the tea itself , today , in this one tea , I tasted sweetness , I tasted savory umami , I tasted a little bit of the sea shore , I tasted a little bit of roast tea . It's like toast tea notes to it no bitterness , but there can be bitterness . And that was just one infusion . I'll infuse it again after we speak and it's going to taste different . And that's what , to me , is so magical about tea , plus the idea of connecting with this beverage that's been drunk for so long , and even today's tea , to know that tea I'm drinking . The tea was first grown in this location well over a thousand years ago and was given to emperors as tribute To me . This makes it even a more interesting experience .

Speaker 2 19:09

Beautiful way to end this . Thank you so much , Ken , for being my guest .

Speaker 3 19:13

Thank you for having me .

Speaker 2 19:14

Yeah , I hope we're all going to see you in some Czech chaiovna soon . Oh , I would love to . Yes , Are you going to visit Czech chaiovna ?

Speaker 3 19:22

I've only been in the American versions and you're familiar with Dobra tea .

Speaker 2 19:26

I'm not sure if they're Sorry , did you say , because there's a name in Czech that's called Dobrachaiovna . It's like a brand .

Speaker 3 19:33

Yeah , they're here in the US , oh okay , and I've been to two of their locations . Oh nice , dobra does a nice job . Its location is different . So , yeah , I would love to go to one in the Czech Republic .

Speaker 2 19:46

Well , I hope we'll see you there .

Speaker 3 19:47

Okay .

Speaker 2 19:47

Well , thank you so much , and thank you to everyone who has listened to this episode and , yeah , see you in Czech chaiovna as well . Bye .