.jpg)
SafeTalk with SafeStart
SafeTalk with SafeStart
S14Ep12: What's Really Wrong With BBS
Safety expert Joe Tantarelli joins Tim Page-Bottorff once again to conduct a "postmortem" on failed behavior-based safety (BBS) programs, examining the root causes with surgical precision. So, what's really wrong with BBS? Short answer: nothing. Tune in to find out what the problem is.
Host: Tim Page-Bottorff
Guest: Joe Tantarelli
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
00:10
Welcome back to SafeTalk with SafeStart. I'm still Tim Page-Bottorff and recently, along with a colleague, Shayne Arnault, did a podcast entitled Is BBS Dead. Your response to that episode was so overwhelming. That tells us there's still a desire for information on the subject of behavior-based safety. So, I thought we could take a deeper dive into why those valuable processes fail. I'd like for you to take a look at this from the perspective of why. Why might you have experienced failure and what can you do about it. By the way, note to the listener we'll be using the terms BBS and observation and feedback, as some organizations call them, interchangeably, as we're talking about the same exact thing. So, I've brought in today my friend and fellow, Joe Tantarelli, to help me sort through all of this. Joe was literally buried alive earlier in his career and in fact, Joe and I discussed that in a previous podcast with the exact same title. If you haven't listened to it, it's an amazing story, Joe, welcome back to the podcast, my friend.
Joe Tantarelli Guest
01:21
Thank you, Tim. It's a pleasure, and actually an honor to be back here with you and your listeners. Thanks for the invitation.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
01:27
It's my pleasure. As I mentioned, I would like to discuss why BBS processes fail. If you will, I'd like to take the approach of a postmortem, much like you would in conducting an accident investigation. We've got a lot to discuss, so I'm going to jump right into this. You ready?
Joe Tantarelli Guest
01:46
Well, I better be I mean, let's start with the title of this podcast. What's really wrong with BBS? Straightforward answer Nothing, if you do it correctly. Talk about the devil and the details on how organizations fail and why. There's a myriad of reasons.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
02:08
Well, that's a fair answer. I mean, what's the biggest reason? BBS processes have let many organizations down.
Joe Tantarelli Guest
02:15
Well, we're jumping right in, aren't we Not going to be a popular answer? But I've been known to do that. Hard questions and hard answers gets the job done. But in a few words, homegrown BBS or observation and feedback processes they've been around for decades. Their staying power is a testament to their effectiveness if they're done well.
02:39
To those who say BBS is old technology which I hear that quite often lately they're all ready to give up on it, but I say so's the wheel, but we update it and we're still using it. So, and that's exactly the same way BBS is. Let's see where was I? Oh yeah, homegrown processes. Many have gotten into trouble. When some higher up, usually with little knowledge of safety, gets wind of BBS as a concept it's also suggestions, a lot of times with OSHA right the higher up then sends someone to the BBS provider's public workshop. When that person returns, that same higher up decides for various reasons Money, money, money, money, money. That's usually the first thing. And they then order that same neophyte in BBS to create a homegrown version of what they've learned.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
03:36
Oh God, that's a great point. Seriously, it's unrealistic to expect anyone to be an expert on anything just because they attended a three-day workshop. It reminds me of that commercial. Are you a brain surgeon? No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Joe Tantarelli Guest
03:54
You know, and that commercial is so memorable because it's so outrageous. But that's exactly what it's like when people try to take the reins when they don't have a good understanding of the process. So, you're correct Three days of classroom work doesn't stand a chance to get someone who's been honing his or her craft for decades. I know we'll be discussing all the unnecessary problems with that approach. Some will be obvious and some of them will be actually subtle but just as effective in derailing the process.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
04:27
So, let's get off on the right foot here. I guess at the very beginning, this is a good place to start, as anywhere. So, the selection of observers what do you think?
Joe Tantarelli Guest
04:38
Oh, this is going to be a short one compared to the rest of the things we're going to talk about today. The easiest part of that journey you want those who are respected by their peers. That's it. I mean, if you think about it, they obviously have good communication skills because their peers like them and they respect them.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
04:57
That's right, I think you nailed it. I would only add to kind of avoid that temptation of selecting people from the safety department. First of all, one of their primary functions is compliance and we don't need anything distracting them from that task. But the second thing is related to the first. They may not be the most popular people you get to work with. I mean, the safety professional and that's kind of what we are traditionally is on the back end of the process of collecting data and they're kind of performing analysis of that data when it comes to BBS. But also, we should mention how many observers are you going to need?
05:34
I think a great rule of thumb on that might be 10 to 15% of your total employee population. Each employee they should be observed, or those that are being observed should be at least observed once a month. And that rule of thumb does several things for you. It helps hold off burnout among the observers and it will also provide variety for those employees like different styles, different approaches, you know, different sets of eyes. They all see different things and their perception is completely different. But that also prepares that organization for inevitable attrition. All right, so we've selected the right observers. Now we kind of need to get them trained.
06:16
Joe Tantarelli Guest
Yes, and my preference on-site, and there are several reasons for that. Your company gets the full attention of the consultant, versus the public event where you have to compete with other people to be able to get specific concerns addressed. Secondly, we can go into your plant, your factory or your job site, whatever it might be, to give the trainees a real sense of how this is all going to go in their world, right with that consultant. That approach is a lot more valuable to everyone as opposed to a public event.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
06:49
I agree. I'll tell you what, though when it comes to training, this is kind of counterintuitive. But when it comes to training, you almost prefer to do the training off site. But when you have to do observations, you definitely want to do those on site. So, there's a lot of skill that goes into these observations and I agree to get as much focus on your site as possible. I've seen what I call an avalanche effect when it comes to training. It looks like this you get observers trained up properly, then they turn around and they enter the same higher ups as you mentioned and order the new or replacement observer. Training collapsed to maybe in half an hour. I'm completely vexed how they possibly think that's a good idea. Another indication they don't understand is the power of BBS. I mean, I believe the most important aspect of BBS is the proper communication piece, don't you agree?
Joe Tantarelli Guest
07:44
Absolutely. One thing that I really was impressed with immediately with SafeTrack is we take four hours out of the three days just to focus on how to communicate to folks not only the obvious but how to positively correct someone. You need to get that desired behavior change and positively reinforce safe behaviors. We have a tendency to forget that part. Hey, you're doing a great job. You know the employees will be driven to repeat those behaviors if we do that.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
08:19
Yeah, I totally agree. If you get that crucial part wrong, your kind of on the road towards quotas. Then like it's a matter of a quick, sharp turn into pencil whipping.
Joe Tantarelli Guest
08:31
I've seen some amazing counterfeiting over the years in my business. I've seen guys rub dirt on the observation cards, boot tracks, crumpled cards and even half-moon coffee stains from the mug. And I've even seen people be so professional at it they use a different colored ink pen all the time just to make it look like it's not done. At the end of the month, when the quotas are necessary. Yeah, if the observers don't clearly understand the value of the observations, the personal value that is so important in everything that we do, you'll find yourself propping the whole process up with quotas, incentives, and at that point you'll find yourself without much of a process at all.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
09:13
I'm glad you said that, because when you start entering the quota phase, then the whole vision of observation and feedback just collapses on itself. So, all right, thank you for that. Another area that we kind of should talk about is observation and feedback is not some kind of catch-ya-scheme. We are not safety police.
Joe Tantarelli Guest
09:35
Amen. We're out there to make things better, not worse. So, you need to. You don't want to be spying on the folks and spring out on them seeming like the police do when they when they catch a speeding right and give us a ticket.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
09:50
That's never happened to you, has it?
Joe Tantarelli Guest
09:52
No, never.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
09:56
All right, so let's just talk to the listeners real quick. I want everyone listening to take kind of a mental trip back to the last time they were pulled over by a cop and then just kind of ask yourself this question what were you thinking? Was it like, oh sweet, learning opportunity, or was it something else? I mean, the point is, observation should always be a positive experience. And you said it, Joe, we're out there to make things better. Talk to us about audits versus behavior-based safety.
Joe Tantarelli Guest
10:28
One of my pet peeves and it rings in my ears even to this day, even though I heard it many years ago from our friend Jack Jackson.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
10:36
I knew that would get your blood pumping. Okay, you have the floor.
Joe Tantarelli Guest
10:40
What he said to me sometimes you got to untrain them to train them, joe. Observation and feedback and this is capital letters. Write this down. Observation and feedback is not an audit. We've got that right. Audits are about physical sight and processes. BBS well, let's face it, it's baked into the name. Behavior-based Safety Observers should primarily focus on behavior, both safe behavior and at-risk behavior. Here's where it gets wonky, if you will. Your safety management system should always include audits when inexperienced observers focus on things that need to be fixed. That's redundant, and we have enough redundancy. They're missing an opportunity to change or reinforce behavior. That's when employees politely or sometimes not so politely rebel as well as they should. Soon, you're going to find observers who don't want to observe. That's when you'll try to prop up the system with quotas, incentives. It only leads to the dreaded pencil weeping even escalate into what I call consequential motivation. In other words, we're disciplining them to do something that's killing them and that never works. It just progressively causes more amplification of the problem that we already created.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
12:15
Well, you got that out of your system.
Joe Tantarelli Guest
12:18
Until I hear or see it again, Tim.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
12:22
Seriously, though, that's an important point audits and observations are two entirely different things, and they should never meet. Two different hats. If you have to put on one hat over the other, then decide the hats. I mean, if you find that the majority of your observations are nothing more than audits, then you've got some work to do. All right, let's talk specifically to those SafeStart customers that are listening right now. BBS is a great maintenance tool for those looking to protect their return on investment with SafeStart.
Joe Tantarelli Guest
12:54
Absolutely, and I'm so glad you brought this up. Write this down. Sometimes you can see rushing, frustration and fatigue. Sometimes you can't Ask anyone who's been married for a while. Oh and, by the way, here's a tip to all you young married folks when you ask your spouse what's the matter and they say nothing, let me assure you did something wrong.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
13:21
I mean that's great advice to all those significant others out there, Joe.
Joe Tantarelli Guest
13:26
Served me well. It has my young Padawan for four and a half decades, by the way. Let’s get back to those states. Sometimes you can see them, sometimes you can't, but you can always ask, and this is what's so cool about Rate Your State.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
14:01
But you can always ask and this as complacency is involved or concerned the only way you can get at that state. And as far as the others I've found, if they're not in one of those states, you could still put them on their radar just by asking hypothetical questions, like if you had a rush order late Friday that had to get out, how might that affect your performance? All right, so, Joe, thank you so much. I'm just going to recap a couple of things Behavior-based safety, getting the right observers that's important. Two, thinking about what we've just talked about in terms of the communication piece. The reason why we spend a majority of our time doing communication is because it's so important the delivery, and even more important is the person perceiving the communication. Those are great points. And then you finally just said Rate Your State.
14:51
We're asking somebody about if I could Rate Your State right now. It's just kind of. You know just what it does and I think you were with me when we were in Peoria, Illinois, talking to a water group and you know that one person that said, no, I'm not ready right now, but they were in a trench, Joe, and you know that one person that said, no, and you know this feeling about a person digging in a trench and talking to them about frustration and that to me I don't know what you said. There was important to Rate Your State. Yes, for sure, not an audit. Just to kind of recap it's not an audit, it's just having a conversation and if they don't have time, move on, move on. All right, Joe, we're kind of running out of time. Are you ready for a rapid-fire round?
15:25
I am sure I mean there's times for observations and not a good time. What do you say about that?
Joe Tantarelli Guest
15:32
Yes, and you said rapid fire. I'm going to take a shot at that. It's not a good time when production is down. It may well be the last observation you'll ever do, and the other thing that comes to mind is what we call initial actions and SafeTrack. Write this down too. That simply means you can see what you can see as you approach the person to be observed. If you see at-risk behavior or perhaps a rule violation, never take your observation card out. Intervene immediately, especially if you have a legal requirement to do so and, let's face it, we have a moral obligation to do that. I'd suspend my plan to do the observation and address the issue. Well, I guess that wasn't rapid fire, but that's the best I could do.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
16:22
That's okay. Intervention is so tough right now because some people just are afraid of conflict, and if they weren't equipped with the same communication techniques that we just talked about? Yeah, anyway, your answer was great. If you'd let me, I'm going to add to it. Going to add to it If, while walking up and you see like an immediately dangerous to life and health situation, suspend the observation and conduct the intervention. All right. Final rapid round question what do you say to those who aren't seeing improvement within their data?
Joe Tantarelli Guest
16:57
Well, Tim, there's a few things that we can do. It's likely either a quality or a quantity issue. In some cases, it's both. Pick at random a handful of observation cards. If you're happy with the quality, then it's a quantity issue. Just generate more observations, and sometimes the data is illuminating, sometimes it's not, but remember this you have likely helped raise someone's awareness by just stopping at the place that they're at and having a meaningful conversation. That's significant, meaningful conversation. That's significant awareness up, mistakes down. And I'll quote a very wise man what we're doing here, Joe, is simply raising awareness, and that's from Mr. Norm Wilson.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
17:44
So yeah, we have not mentioned Norm Wilson on the podcast, and I'm so grateful that you brought that up. So, yeah, what you said was true, and great things happen when awareness is up. Quality, can you imagine? Performance, productivity, all of those things. All right, Joe, thank you for the wrap it around. Any closing thoughts with our listeners today?
Joe Tantarelli Guest
18:08
Well, just a couple. One get a good consultant and keep in touch with them, and I always reassure my clients that a phone call is free if they run into any trouble. Because BBS is crucial to leading indicators, and it depresses me when I walk onto sites and say, how's your BBS going? And well, yeah, we're making them do the cards. Are you satisfied with it? No, or yeah, we got some people doing it. We're missing the boat by not doing this in a way that makes it efficient and makes it worthwhile to the employees, and when we see that personal ownership, that's when we're going to see improvement and benefit for everybody involved.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
18:55
Thank you for saying that's great advice to end the podcast on. So, Joe, thank you for taking some time to be with us today.
Joe Tantarelli Guest
19:03
It's always good to catch up with you, Tim.
Tim Page-Bottorff Host
19:06
Yeah, if anytime I can get you on the phone or on a podcast, I would do it and it's great. It's great to spend this time, and thank you, Joe, I do it and it's great. And thank you, Joe, I appreciate it. If you'd like to reach out to Joe and pick his brain, you could do so by email. His email is joe at safestart.com. Once again, that's J O E at safestart.com. Please remember to share this podcast and you can email me directly at Tim at safestart.com If you have any topics that you'd like for us to cover, safestart.com.
19:35
If you have any topics that you'd like for us to cover, if you'd like more information on SafeTrack or even Rate Your State that Joe mentioned, reach out to your account executive or check out safestart.com. We would like to thank you for listening and for SafeTalk with SafeStart. I am Tim Page-Bottorff and until next time, we'll see you down the road.