Dr. Geshe Lobsang Tenzin Negi: Compassion During a Pandemic

Geshe Lobsang Tenzin Negi, PhD, is Executive Director of the Center for Contemplative Science and Compassion-Based Ethics at Emory University and Director of the Emory Tibet Science Initiative. Among Dr. Negi’s many accomplishments is developing Cognitively Based Compassion Training, or CBCT, a highly influential meditation program, which is a major focus of our discussion in this podcast, and which forms a foundation for Social, Emotional, and Ethical (SEE) Learning, an innovative K-12 education program being adopted by school systems around the world. In addition to his work with compassion meditation and education, Dr. Negi leads efforts that are revolutionizing Tibetan Buddhist monastic education by introducing training in modern science as a core competency in monastic training.

Featuring:

Dr. Geshe Lobsang Tenzin Negi, Executive Director of the Center for Contemplative Science and Compassion-Based Ethics at Emory University, Director of the Emory Tibet Science Initiative

Host:

Charles Raison, Psychiatrist, Professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and Emory University

About Emory University's Center for the Study of Human Health:

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I'm Charles raison with the center for the study of human health at Emory university in Atlanta, Georgia. My guest today is guest. She lives on and Nagy executive director of the center for contemplative science and compassion based ethics at Emory university in Atlanta, Georgia, dr. Nagy is equally remarkable for his modesty and the astounding scope of his accomplishments among these accomplishments is developing a highly influential meditation program called cognitively based compassion training or CBCT. In this podcast, we talk about CBCT in the context of a larger discussion that explores the healing powers of compassion based on an understanding of the precious impermanence of human life. Before starting though, I feel a need to explain why I refer to dr. Nagy as guest Sheila in this podcast in Tibetan Buddhism, the guest she degree is similar to our PhD. Law is a term of endearment. I'm so used to referring to dr. Nagy as cashola that it is helpful to understand that this means something like my dear doctor colleague

Speaker 2: 1:06

health is everything. Health health is everything

Speaker 1: 1:20

you and I have worked together for a long time. And, uh, I think a lot of our work has been guided by this idea of compassion. So why don't we start by talking a little bit about how, how did it come to be that, um, you've been so involved in developing, studying and, and sort of teaching people about compassion

Speaker 3: 1:40

to, uh, um, grow in the feet of his holiness, the Dalai Lama, uh, whose, uh, teachings have always inspired to me. Uh, and, uh, uh, his holiness, the Dalai Lama in the Tibetan Buddhist world is seen as the, the embodiment of the Buddha of compassion and the, his teachings. You know, it's just, uh, so much of a focus on the need for compassion, as he says, as you know, compassion, uh, is a necessity, not a luxury without compassion. You know, we cannot survive. Humanity cannot survive.

Speaker 1: 2:17

Why is compassion so central to the sort of Buddhist understanding of, you know, what matters in life?

Speaker 3: 2:26

Yeah. You know, whether himself actually, he said that, you know, if you had one virtue in a one quality in your hand, Oh, all the other qualities will be present. What is that quality? What is that first year? And they said, yes, that's compassion the pandemic like this, that we are going through right now. It just highlights the importance of compassionate. You said that, how would we survive? How would we come through this real kind of the crisis? And what gives the together,

Speaker 1: 3:00

which gives the group together, cooperation and trust. It's that sense of connection is so crucial for us to flourish years ago, you and I went to visit his holiness in Dharamsala when we were sort of starting to compassionate it, you know, you spend about an hour with us. And it was certainly one of the most impactful kind of beatings I ever had in my life. And, but odd, you know, one of the things you said to me, um, that really stayed with me, and I think it was the look on his face. It was sort of an offhanded comment, but he said he made a comment about the, the, the, the horrible cruelty that humans display and visit upon animals. And I've been thinking about that and his holiness in relationship to this pandemic, because I saw an article, I think it was in the New York times about how, you know, in many ways it's our treatment of animals and the sort of the cruel conditions, um, that we, that, um, that we, you know, that animals endure that, that caused this thing to jump from animals, to people. So I've been thinking a lot about that too, right. About how this idea of compassion and, and I, you know, I'm not a vegetarian, everybody knows I have a problem. I hate vegetables, you know? Um, but, but I've been thinking about this that, you know, even down in a way to the world of sort of microbial things that not having a stance of trying to be fair and equitable with as many forms of life as possible, um, has come back to bite us in this case. Uh, because Def, I mean, this thing jumped from us to humans because from humans to animals because of our treatment of animals, um, that made this possible. So I, I, it's interesting that I think it's not just humans, I guess. Right? Yeah. I, I, you know, I, I think, you know, this, again, highlights our interconnection and interdependence, right? You're not there yet. If you think about life, you know, it's just, we are completely inter connected with other life forms and, you know, the whole in a systems around us, right? So individual, our actions impact others, others actions impact. And that goes not just between humans, you know, our impact other life forms, other life forms, you know, their actions impact on us. So in this kind of web of interconnectedness, I think, you know, um, how we treat each other in a certain, as it real kind of consequences for ourselves and for, uh, for the larger society. One of the things I think that the pandemic really highlights too, is how, how individual actions at some points in history good or bad can have massive consequences, right? Because this whole thing started probably in one market. You know, I mean, you think about, it's probably, it was probably a couple of who unwittingly,

Speaker 3: 5:58

you know, I mean, it's not their fault. They were living the life they live, but it, it is just amazing. I mean, it just, that, that interconnectivity in, in highly interconnected systems, like the modern world, you can get this massive escalation of the impact of these, you know, interconnected relationships. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this, you know, pandemic is teaching us a lot. So know we are very vulnerable that, you know, that we are not super humans, completely immune to, uh, illnesses and the impact from others and like that. So, yeah, there's bad timing. It's definitely, it's not any individual's fault. You know, like I think that the, we as individuals, we have needs, we need to eat. And then in some areas, people have what's available in what circumstances kind of drew them to depend on, on certain kind of diets, certain kind of the food and like that. And then, you know, this is not, uh, an individual kind of choosing are, you know, because school, he or she is any one of us, you know, that they absolutely in, in, uh, a certain kind of environment, certain plays certain time into that, uh, that that could be us, you know, to, from the, where this may have started. So it's no one's fault. I think it shows that how, as individuals, we are vulnerable, you know, that we have needs, we depend on, you know, the certain resources and so forth. Uh, and our bodies have not met or the built to only take in that, uh, make us kind of flourish and the, you know, and, and to, you know, uh, repel the push away anything, you know, like the Alaman system is wonderful system to protect us, but it's not unlimited. And of course, I think the other thing that this pandemic has highlighted, at least for me, is the idea of impermanence, which, you know, of course, I know it's a very sort of central Buddhist idea along with compassion, but this idea that, you know, you think everything is solid. The one we fail to recognize our vulnerabilities, our own, uh, you know, the changes that will take in place that from childhood to adulthood, to all the age and, uh, that way we will have to live this beautiful planet at some point. And like that, I think that, you know, this can give us a sense of how precious the life is that what we have now. Uh, and also from there that also give us a sense also that how other people, you know, that this other, other individuals are also not going to be there forever. You know, that we can see our loved ones and others. Uh, it's, it's wonderful that we have them in our lives. We can begin to cherish them. And then also to, you know, by cherishing them, we will also begin to see their needs and, you know, the, what what's, what is important for them. And this will become more important

Speaker 1: 9:15

because impermanence, I guess, is linked to suffering and suffering is also relevant to compassion. Isn't it? I guess what you were saying,

Speaker 3: 9:22

there's something about the seven as we encounter suffering. If we accept it as part of our, you know, normal reality and all that, it's through our own suffering, that we are able to empathize with others and have compassion for others.

Speaker 1: 9:44

Yeah. And, uh, so you know, it, a number of years ago, um, you created cognitively based compassion training, which has really sort of taken off. And a lot of, well, I studied it, I studied it, but, uh, yes, we did a lot of really interesting work together. And fortunately we still are, um, a lot of, I mean, a lot of what you're talking about is it the heart of, of CBCT as we call it. Right. You know, this idea of suffering and, and, um, so talk about that a little bit. How did let's talk a little bit about how it came to be and sort of what the core principles are for the compassion training that, that, you know, it is having such an impact now you can't really the numbers fears. Yeah. So as we were talking about, you know, the suffering, right,

Speaker 3: 10:35

but I think is what that kind of, uh, in many ways, you know, as catalyst for compassion, in the case of CBCT, it is cognitively based compassion training. Uh, that, that was also the suffering that the community at Emory university back in 2003, you know, that, uh, uh, when I was teaching a course in, uh, with the psychology, uh, and the, uh, uh, reviewed to various meditation models, the night that one of the students, Molly Harrington, you know, like she, she was, uh, very, very, uh, committed to raising this kind of mental health awareness on the campus, you know, to removing the stigma on the mental health, uh, because there were the students who unfortunately even had to commit suicide. So it's, you know, Molly's deep kind of concern for the wellbeing of the students and the community at large, you know, that she, she, she felt that some of these meditations that we were reviewing would be a really helpful, uh, for the community. And she encouraged me to create something. And the, as you know, that, you know, that, uh, uh, uh, our friendship and that your being at Emory and that, that we have been discussing, what's kind of the, doing something with the meditation, you know, some research that's what led to the creation of the cognitive based compassion training. So let's talk about a little bit, what H how does it work? I come in I'm, I'm going to get trained. What, what's it like, what happens his holiness, the Dalai Lama, when he often talks about how important for him to have this analytical meditations analytical, not in the sense of just thinking of why do you not like that? Just making sense, making visible that there are a lot of things that I'm not clear to us, not visible to us, but, uh, you know, like the moons around Jupiter were not visible to our naked eyes before the telescope, you know, let's invent it, you know, that with this microorganism, but not visible to us before the Dutch scientists, I think, love and hook was the China creating the microscope. And then, then, you know, for the first time to see this set up, what kind of revolutions these two discoveries led to, right? So something, you know, when it comes to the compassion part, I think that the, you know, it's this making visible our human condition is what is at the heart of the compassion is that we are human beings. You're not just like the super humans or the, not just kind of a machine, but human beings with real needs and feelings and, you know, the emotions and like that. So making visible our human condition helps us then to see others also as humans, that if we can recognize condition in others in combustion, first part is to kind of finding some personal kind of experience to where we received compassion or extended compassion and what it felt like. And then from there to see how crucial it is for own wellbeing and something there that it's kind of primes us for security also, as we attune to, you know, something that, uh, is associated with a sense of caring and comfort and the safety and security, right? Even like artificially induced, you know, such kind of the, uh, safety, you know, even subliminally kind of exposing people to these words like love and care and like that, that it gets people to feel more safe and then move open, more outgoing and more prosocial and more compassionate and like that. But the real, the, you know, at the heart of the compassion training is really to understand our emotions, what his holiness, the Dalai Lama calls about, you know, like, uh, you know, needing to develop emotional hygiene, you know, another kind of beautiful metaphor for today. You know, that we're talking about maintaining personal hygiene to, you know, to protect ourselves and others, emotional hygiene, along with external hygiene, so important for emotion. And that comes with emotional intelligence, you know, the being aware of our own emotions, how they feel, you know, when we, uh, we experienced them, you know, that, uh, and then, you know, finding ways to how to regulate them, how to, how to manage them. Uh, and then, you know, that the being aware that what it feels like when we are in this stress, what we are struggling with, it's this, this really kind of uncomfortable feeling of anger or the hip, the fears, the anxieties, and like that. So there's two kind of seeing that, you know, that certain ways there are many ways, but at least to far finding, developing this kind of choice, how to disengage so that we can bring our attention to something that is comforting with something meaningful, certain neutral, even to let our brain, our nervous system kind of calm body. When we begin to see that, that this sense of kind of connection that develops that the people, you know, our neighbors, our coworkers, and people in the community, they don't remain just faceless somebody else or the other, but rather one of us, you know, when, the way you, if you think about it in today's society and that even with such kind of progress in the last several decades that, uh, you know, it's developed countries have met, when you think that, you know, not just your personal, emotional issues, like the social problems, like the inequity thing, you know, the biases that we have, racial biases, gender biases, and you know, that the rich and poor gap and the ideological kind of, and all those things, they did this, this is a reflection of that. We are not paying attention to this, our shit human reality, that the others are beings just like us, you know, that's to overcome that biases, the, the prejudice, uh, by seeing a common humanity, you think about like right now to maintain this, you know, social distance in that we are doing, how would that be possible? You know, for me, if the people in the agricultural industry, the grocery stores and like that, if they are, they quit doing what they do love the food before several weeks or two to stay there, you have the people working in the electricity industry and all the people who are at the risk of their lives, that they are out there just day in and day out, uh, for us to, to, uh, helping people that who need the help, help to, you know, the patients that, that, you know, that's all those, when you, if this is such a kind of poignant moment to make visible our interdependence, when we attune to this, you know, into tremendous what we receive from others, how others are so crucial for what we have, you know, that when we can't help, but feel this warm feeling towards others, warmheartedness, that's always fascinated me. I think of all the things that CBCT this idea that you're building upon sort of an evolved characteristics that we have, right. Most people have some degree of that and more for some people than others. And that if that, there really is, there is this sort of emotive component to it that even know we call it a CBCT, this cognitively based there's a, there's an affective component to it. I've as I've always understood it, right. That you really I'm just sort of having an abstract knowledge, uh, may be of some value, but really what you're, you're also trying to get this real heartfelt sense of connection with others. Do I have that, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Compassion is all about emotion and it is the felt sense. It is. It is that deep concern. Yeah. That, uh, that, that desires to be free. You must have heard about this expression like that all perspectives that they ship are emotions, not that thing about against us, let's say, you know, uh, one person sees this person, this person's perspective about this child's perspective about his father is one that is kind of caring and showers with gifts and comforts and loves. And other person is that it hurts, you know, that says, you know, that the person practice makes different perspectives, uh, drive out emotions. That's, that's what at the heart of the emotional kind of unfolding as it's actually like the Paul Ekman is expert in emotional, you know, scientific instead of emotion that it talks about the events don't trigger emotions themselves. It's our appraisal that makes the event trigger or not. Compassion is it's, it's an emotional state, certainly, but the cognitive processes, you know, can help us unleash those better. Exactly. Cause if we see it a certain way, the emotions tend to follow, right. I mean, this is what, what are, are there risks or dangers to compassion or ways that can go wrong, for instance, you know, um, how do we avoid, you know, what do they call it? Uh, you know, like emotional contagion or, you know, if we all of a sudden begin to realize everybody's like us, uh, and we really all of a sudden feel their suffering, how do we, how do we avoid, uh, you know, melting down, it's hard enough to have our own suffering. Even that's such a person is, uh, as a potentially very harmful towards us to say that, yes, this plastic is capable of hurting us and others and himself or herself. He also seeing that it person is capable, but understanding yeah, where this person is coming from, you know, when a patient, uh, and ex violently under the influence of illness, caring physician is not angry at the patient. You know, similarly, the enlightened beings that see the destructive, this kind of destructive emotions as you know, problem, not the people with the destructive emotions. So think about this for a moment, you know, like that, it's about our attitude, about the person not action. If this person's actions, we can see that it is harmful. We need to protect ourselves. We need to protect others. We need to protect this person from his or her own. If there is a possibility, but at least to protect ourselves from this persons harmful another beautiful metaphor that shattered there. It gives us this fire. You're not that fire Doobie hit fire because it's hot in it. That way, the reviews fire for cookie and keeping us warm and all those things, right. We don't necessarily fit, but do we need to jump into the fire simply we don't hit the fire. We value fire, not because we are aware that fire has the capacity to burn us damn thing. When a certain person is under the siege of the certain emotional States, that that person is helpless and it's capable of hurting others and themselves. So therefore compassion is as his holiness, the Dalai Lama says that you should, the blame action, you know, that not the person, what are the ideas of CBCT? Isn't, it is to sort of start with that and try to build it outwards, not to, not to do

Speaker 1: 23:46

away with it, but, you know, cause essentially, uh, you know, as I've often said to you, I mean having CA I, you and I had worked together for a long time and when I had my children and they began to grow up, I, I understood compassion differently than I had before. It was really, really powerful for me. It's exactly what you're saying of just this, this profound warmhearted concern. You do anything for their wellbeing. Um, and you're right. It, it, it, it, it absolutely does not, uh, you know, it absolutely does not make you weak. And it seems like, you know, something that I noticed in Shanti Deva too, is this idea that, you know, the word adventitious, you know, a person is your enemy this week, next week, something changes, but that the afflictive emotions, negative emotions are always your enemy basically, right? That, that, that anger, hatred, you know, these sort of negative emotional States. And so this idea of separating out the actor from the actions, the person from the States, of course, that presupposes that there's something in a person that's separate from the negative emotionality, which I know is a core Buddhist idea, but it's also just really powerful, isn't it? That I've never quite heard it. So it's really interesting the way you just said that that in itself is sort of a meditation, right. To try to try to almost see like a ghost thing come out of the negative actions and the person sort of in thrall to that negativity.

Speaker 3: 25:08

Yeah. And I think that, you know, that this is where, uh, embracing our human condition comes good. And yet, when you talk about the self compassion, the self compassion that has to do with accepting our human condition and that, that, that we do have vulnerabilities, we do, we have dispositions, you know, that the makeup of our biology is such that the data we do have even the brand is so deeply, you know, the condition that if, if there's a certain threat that it will release all those stress, this is how nature has endowed us to protect ourselves. Right? So these are so deep. So it's not that they, you know, just begin reacting with anger or fear or so forth. It's a wrong artist is kind of a natural app. And this is quite natural in the presence of threats and so forth and so on for us to have fear of even at a certain frustration and anger. And like the key issue is really that, uh, like, you know, we were talking with the hygiene earlier, you know, like, you know that the water, if you spill water, if you can wipe it to let it dry or to you, not that it's no problem, but if you let it sit too long, then it can kind of, uh, create all germs and so forth. Any product floor toxic and problematic, the emotions are like that, you know, that emotions are important, you know, that the, in the presence of certain threats and so forth, of course, that, you know, biology is equipped with such a capacities to kind of, you know, respond, react in that way. But then like anger, a little frustration, you know, that, that leads to certain action. But if that becomes like the big Flint, like the little spark, if it becomes like the big flan, you know, like, like the forest fire, then if he gives you free, keeps just sitting with that, you know, that actually that it distressed our own health and wellbeing, you know, like just that, this is how, you know, how the Buddha said that, you know, that holding onto anger is like holding a burning coal in your hand, the stronger and longer you hold, the more you will be inflicted with. Yeah, I did that. It will be to just let it go. You're not there. We have wonderful capacities, but we are, we all, uh, ability it is a limited, you know, like anyone else, you know, they, um, even our certain failures, even when we make certain mistakes come short on our responsibilities, like that is that because we are bad person, you know, somehow that we are eternally flawed or it's just the way that you're not that we have this dispositions, that the shift by the long evolution, the nature that we're in, in certain conditions that we are, we have certain kind of, uh, you know, uh, limitations and in certain condition, we react in certain ways. And if we can, I can accept that reality in our real, it be fine with our vulnerability and imperfection. But at the same time, seeing that we do have the capacity to, to improve the bachelor, you know, that, um, then, then we can, we are no more, you know, that, uh, in the position that I'm special, I'm somehow different than anybody else, you know, but rather that once we can accept our human condition, then it's much easier to make visible other human condition as exactly. Then how do we, um, and maybe it's part of the answer, you know, I've talked about this over the years, but so how do you, how does one, one gets in touch with others? One feels their suffering, how does one avoid, um, feeling overwhelmed, uh, hopeless, uh, just, you know, geez, I can't even barely stand my own suffering. And now I really, the suffering of, you know, I, my, my buddies every morning, uh, send me articles about, uh, medical people on the front lines, you know, and, uh, as you can not big into fast, uh, compassion practitioner, Alaska, it, I get this right where I, I, it's hard. I feel like, Oh man, it's just a, you know, my stomach turns when I read the, the suffering that they're seeing that are going through. So how, you know, for a guy like me who is struggling with that kind of, you know, I think you passed the contagion that, that can put you at risk for feeling overwhelmed or depressed. How does that differentiate out from what you're doing with the compassion and another grips? Great question. Uh, you know, we all know that our loved one, if they are in trouble, you know, that we're just thinking, Oh yeah, this is my child. You know, just put whole biology in a different state, you know, internal, you know, they get, so, uh, the compassion will do that. But the question Jerry is, again, it's not that there's just like we were talking about, you know, in the certain, certain circumstances, not to react with anger or feel like that same thing in the compassion, you know, that if it brings a certain sense of distress, it's natural that this will happen, you know, with the compassion. But the key is that, that whether we just sit with that at a, you know, I'm helpless, I can, you know, that, or rather we can see that what we can do. You know that also, if we come with this perspective that yeah, we have mutations, not that we are not super humorous, that no one is able to do away with all the problems. You know, I am a human, I feel for, but I'm, but what can I do to seeing the, you know, focusing on what I can do instead of what I cannot do, that's where I think that that mindset can help. And then what I can do is not like that, you know, I can eliminate this problem, but rather, wow. You know, what can I do to make some difference? For example, if it's, you know, for the doctors, let's say the healthcare professionals struggle with, you know, if their patient is this, uh, in this, with this terminal illness, you know, there's nothing that you can do really, you know, like that, to cure the person from that illness. Does that mean that if you cannot heal or cure this person, does that mean that you can't do anything more? Can you do something to change the experience of this person? You know, how it is just spending a few moments to talk to this person, just to give a sense that I'm here with you and to seeing that

Speaker 1: 32:40

what, you know, there's always the possibility that things that we can do, you know, this goal, if we focus what I can do, and then take those little steps, you know, however, small in this pandemic, for example, you know, maintaining the social distancing, we can see that, yeah, this is a huge place, but maintaining the social distancing is actually a way through my contribution. Absolutely. You know, bring down his spread of that, right? When people do it together, you get to huge effects. That's, what's really interesting to scene. So you really kind of connect, you know, what you are doing with that purpose. Thank you so much. Uh, w we're going to do, we should do this again. I, I, you know, it's interesting, there's other things I'd love to talk about with you. I'd love to talk about science and spirituality with the work you're doing with the[inaudible] science initiatives. So I'll, I'll get after Tim or somebody instead of a time to talk to you. Give a thank you so much for sharing. It's so good to see you. So take care.

Speaker 2: 33:43

Health is everything. Health is every health is everything.

Speaker 1: 33:58

Thank you for listening to health is everything. You know, if you've enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to subscribe, share it with a friend or rate it on Apple podcasts. You can follow the Emory university center for the study of human health at Emory C S H H on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram until next time I'm dr. Charles raison wishing you the best of health.