George H. Grant, PhD, is a psychologist and theologian who serves as Executive Director of Spiritual Health for Emory Healthcare in Atlanta, GA. In this role, Dr. Grant oversees the delivery of chaplaincy care throughout the Emory Healthcare system and guides the country’s largest chaplaincy education program. Join us as we discuss Dr. Grant’s pioneering vision for transforming chaplaincy from an ancillary support role to being an essential resource for shoring up the human face of medicine. We discuss the value of recognizing human spiritual needs and aspirations as important elements in health and disease and explore ways in which clinicians can maximize the provision of compassion within the often impersonal world of modern medicine.
Featuring:
George H. Grant, PhD, Executive Director of Spiritual Health for Emory Healthcare in Atlanta, GA
Host:
Charles Raison, Psychiatrist, Professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and Emory University
About Emory University's Center for the Study of Human Health:
The Emory Center for the Study of Human Health was developed to expand health knowledge and translate this knowledge to all aspects of life – for the individual and populations as a whole. The Center assembles the extraordinary faculty, researchers and thought leaders from across disciplines, departments, schools and institutions to bring this knowledge to Emory University students and inspire them to become leaders for the next generation in meeting challenges facing human health.
Follow Us:
Blog: Exploring Health
Facebook: @EmoryCSHH
Instagram: @EmoryCSHH
Twitter: @EmoryCSHH
George H. Grant, PhD, is a psychologist and theologian who serves as Executive Director of Spiritual Health for Emory Healthcare in Atlanta, GA. In this role, Dr. Grant oversees the delivery of chaplaincy care throughout the Emory Healthcare system and guides the country’s largest chaplaincy education program. Join us as we discuss Dr. Grant’s pioneering vision for transforming chaplaincy from an ancillary support role to being an essential resource for shoring up the human face of medicine. We discuss the value of recognizing human spiritual needs and aspirations as important elements in health and disease and explore ways in which clinicians can maximize the provision of compassion within the often impersonal world of modern medicine.
Featuring:
George H. Grant, PhD, Executive Director of Spiritual Health for Emory Healthcare in Atlanta, GA
Host:
Charles Raison, Psychiatrist, Professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and Emory University
About Emory University's Center for the Study of Human Health:
The Emory Center for the Study of Human Health was developed to expand health knowledge and translate this knowledge to all aspects of life – for the individual and populations as a whole. The Center assembles the extraordinary faculty, researchers and thought leaders from across disciplines, departments, schools and institutions to bring this knowledge to Emory University students and inspire them to become leaders for the next generation in meeting challenges facing human health.
Follow Us:
Blog: Exploring Health
Facebook: @EmoryCSHH
Instagram: @EmoryCSHH
Twitter: @EmoryCSHH
Health is everything. Health is every campus, everything.[inaudible]
Charles Raison:hi, I'm Dr. Charles raison with the center for the study of human health. And our guest today is George Grant, who is the executive director for spiritual health at Woodruff health science center. Emory university. I George.
George Grant:Hey, chat.
Charles Raison:Well, we've, uh, we've talked more than once before. Oh yes. So, you know, today's subject is spiritual health. We'll talk about something that I know both you and I are fascinated by, which is, you know, the fact that setting aside a particular beliefs, setting aside sort of theological questions, it just seems like such an obvious thing that, that we as animals have this spiritual capacity or spiritual longing. Some people have it more than others, but it's such a part of who we are. And you know, I've gotten so fascinated by the idea that it may be so directly relevant to health and it might be better incorporated into healthcare. So I know we've, uh, why don't you start at the beginning and tell me how this all happened, how you and I came to be talking back several years ago and what we're doing with spiritual health at Emory.
George Grant:Well, that's great. I, I'm very appreciative our relationship as you know, and, uh, I, I got into this business, uh, for those very same reasons in terms of beginning to explore outside of myself, while at the same time exploring deeply within and a four truths and values that hold me together. Mmm. So to me, that's the essence of spirituality is that kind of discovery and rediscovery process. And, uh, also, I'd have to say that, you know, I came into this because of my own traumatic experiences as well, because in those times when we are softed so to speak, Mmm. We, uh, yeah. Bend into those things that are most primitive and the primitive side, I think, of human beings has a deep sense of longing for connection. Yeah. Um, and I think that one of the pieces for me early on was realization that, um, I had grown up or rather isolated Mmm. From, uh, others. It wasn't until maybe three and a half years old that, uh, when my sister came into the world, um, that, uh, I think I was, uh, I was kind of a loner. Um, and, um, it was, it was a few years later that, uh, my mother got breast cancer and it was 1968, as a matter of fact. And I remember seeing the[inaudible] and worry over my dad's space when he came in and, and she'd had a radical mastectomy and, and he was crying. I was about 10 years old. Yeah. And I, I just, uh, I felt his sadness, I felt his grief and, uh, is also his wondering what's next. You know, how do I make it, how do I cope with that? And it was only, um, about four years later that he died, all of a sudden have a aortic aneurysm.
Charles Raison:He died before she did.
George Grant:Yeah. Well, she's not dead. The amazing part of this story, she's 94 years old and she's had cancer twice and she's been widowed three times in her life. And, uh, so I've been exposed to quite a lot of, you know, this, um, you know, continuing grief story. Yeah. And, and, uh, leaning into that, which, uh, it brings me peace. And so it's, I, I, I'm not disconnected from my own personal story in terms of, in relationship to my professional life and what I'm about in terms of, uh, helping people to achieve, uh, a meaningful life, uh, a life of purpose. Um, that is, uh, Hey a cause for celebration even and, um, leading to flourishing, um, but particularly in times of trauma and struggle to be there, um, in the midst of that. So a person doesn't feel isolated or lonely.
Charles Raison:Yeah. And had you, did you, uh, you came up through, uh, sort of, uh, the pastorate, right. Do I remember this correctly? I mean, you've got, how did you come? So, you know, executive well, executive director of spiritual health means, you know, in one way, uh, and we'll talk about this cause I think you have, uh, sort of brilliantly reconceived some of this, but, but you know, you're the head of the chaplains, um, really for Emory healthcare. So tell me, tell us a little bit about that. How did you come,
George Grant:well that that came out of the, you know, a real long Infor? Mmm, a professional connection, you know, uh, in terms of college, I, um, I was mainly into music and theater and Mmm. And four for a variety of reasons. I found myself, uh, in a master of divinity program at Emory, uh, in the midst of still singing and all of that. But I had a desire to sort set aside my life and, uh, learn how to appreciate my inner world. And I got into my own psychotherapy, which was, and amazing experience for me to recollect, you know, that which I felt like I had lost and, and not having a father figure and, and so forth. And so I had no intention of really going into ministry. The only reason I felt like at the time I ended up in, in a seminary was, um, so as a kind of, um, I was a swaging, uh, you know, my friends and family that I was actually in a graduate school somewhere and I wasn't just moving off. And, uh, so in the midst of that, by a third year of a master's program, I realized that I totally appreciated the psychotherapy component of, um, sitting across from another person and to do that with the, uh, spiritually informed kind of psychotherapy. And I began to think of myself as training for that. And, uh, it wasn't long after that that I got into a residency program at chapel. So you right there at Emory university hospital where I am now. Yeah. And that was, you know, 35 years ago or so. And, uh, but I also knew that I wanted something, Mmm. Maybe a more extensive then the religious care property and domain, um, that I was deeply engaged in mental health. So I went in, I did a PhD in psychology at Boston university and, and that just brought me into a whole new dynamic of how my life would unfurl, you understand. I decided that I would just then meld the two and, uh, it seemed like healthcare was, uh, the place where I landed and, uh, feel most at home. So now I, I've, I've got this, um, responsibility for people that are, um, responding to suffering and healthcare environments. Um, but also we, we take seriously how we train people for now and for the future. And so I've been expanding my horizon in terms of how I identify myself and how the people that we train identify themselves and what kind of preparation they need for our great, great, great grandchildren.
Charles Raison:Well, let's talk, let's talk about that. That's, so basically, you know, the, the hospital chaplaincy goes back, I suppose, into the sort of misuse of time. I mean, it's, it, there've been chaplains in healthcare environments
George Grant:four
Charles Raison:100 years, I would guess, at least. Right. I mean, that's something that goes way back. W w w w talk to me about that a little bit. How did you begin to think about, about expanding the vision, sharpening the vision? What, what was your sense of, of what was good and bad about what chaplains were doing and some of the changes you've made at Emory, your sense of that?
George Grant:Uh, yeah, I, uh, what's becoming important to me is whole person health, you know, and I realized early on as I was in my training and in my psychology work that Mmm, persons are so eclectic now, you know, they, they shop in many different domains for coping. Yeah. Uh, and I, because of bone history, it felt like, yes, there are some pieces of religious care that were important to me along the way, but there were, uh, equally so there were other Mmm. Places in my life where I found peace and, um, self forgiveness and, um, uh, a real sense of belonging to the universe, so to speak. So I began to think, you know, I may be not unlike a lot of people and, uh, that I should be true to myself in terms of what I, I would want in a time of trouble. And I've certainly been a patient the past several years, several times, and I just know what helps me. And so I've been simply trying to promote, you know, more. Mmm. A wider sense of, of what that means to be, uh, representing spiritual health, you know, as opposed to, you know, for, yeah, as you say, centuries it was mostly to do, to respond to religious care and now it's, it's expanded, um, to include the, the emotional health spectrum across the way. And we necessarily have to intersect with behavioral science. It, there's no question that, uh, just being a part of a culture, uh, in a society where everyone is, uh, achieving, uh, health for themselves, that we had to be prepared for the, the multi perspective, high levels of, of uh, humanity. Yeah.
Charles Raison:Yep. I mean, although it's, so, it's interesting. What did you find, you know, you mentioned that some of the, some of the, um, vision that, that you've brought to the Emory healthcare spiritual health has to do with what you, yourself found really, really valuable. What were the, some of the, some of the core things you identified as really useful to you when somebody comes in, you know, in the role of, you know, a traditional chaplain, I suppose at that point, if people were still probably more true.
George Grant:Yeah, I love talking about this, Chuck, because it's a, to me it's very simple, but it's very complex to apply and that is responding to a person as they are not as to where I think they should be. Uh, so what I mean by that is to say I pay attention to the aspect over and above content. Mmm. For the most part, particularly initially in developing a relationship with a care seeker, I, I use these two words, care responder and care seeker. Um, and I think, um, there are times when, uh, we as care responders are, are also seeking care. And to see ourselves in that position, it helps us to appreciate that which we would find helpful. So when I'm recognized for how I appear to be, and someone can say that to me gently and Mmm. And with a good deal of respect, that makes me feel figuratively held. You know, if someone comes up to me and said, you seem really sad today. Now, it sounds simple to do, you know, but it's not because we have this fear of being intrusive or stepping over a line or something of that nature. Uh, but to me it just strikes at the heart and the economy of what we can be, uh, in terms of faithful companion to that person. So, Mmm. I, I've been teaching that now for 25 plus years, you know, to really pay attention to how a person is responding to their particular suffering and to constantly comment on it, not ask a bunch of questions. I'm on non interrogated type of person. Yeah. In fact, I, I sometimes say to my folks, uh, you know, uh, questions are evil because you know, they wait, what we get in return is sometimes an answer that's tailored for some sort of expertise.
Charles Raison:Exactly. So like if, if, so if I, if I'm the chaplain, I come in and say, how you feeling? Uh, there's a lot of social pressure to say, ah, I'm feeling all right. Right. Whereas if you come in and say, you seem sad, the person, so, so you know, this is interesting towards, because I, and, and I, you know, I've talked a bunch over the years, but I'd never quite made this connection. When I was in residency training at UCLA, there was a psychoanalyst that I admired my league guy named James grot stain and you know, he, he said exactly what you said actually, that the question just sort of evil that what you're really trying to do is offer interpretations because, you know, if you say, wow, you look really sad and you do it in a way that, that is supportive and doesn't make the person feel, you know, um, judged some way,
George Grant:um,
Charles Raison:they go yet, um, Oh yeah, actually I really am. Or they go, well, you know, actually I'm feeling more anxious. Right. You've stuck the pin in somewhere. That's so interesting. Now that, that did that, that came out of your psychotherapeutic training, I assume. Uh, I mean, that's not standard brands and champions
George Grant:to some degree, it came out of what I was not getting. Okay. When I was training as a psychotherapist, right?
Charles Raison:Yeah.
George Grant:Mmm. Because, uh, to me, uh, you know, being under supervision as we all are, where we're training, um, I was feeling a felt sense of, um, but this is a very intrusive type of, uh, experience, you know, and how we were trained and I was trained in the object relations, you know, bit and self psychology. But, uh, I just felt like, gosh, it's doesn't feel to me to be empathetic, you know, and I want to achieve empathic balance in terms of my relationship with the care seeker. And that means that I need to be in conversation with myself while sitting across from the care seeker. If I'm not, if I'm disconnected, I'm totally at a automaton who is simply, you know, um, I can be assaulted and uh, disconnected. But when I'm connected to my own experience, there's a felt sense that from the care seeker's perspective, I'm in the boat. I'm not, you know, like from the shore saying, Oh, good luck getting back to shore, you know, and a person then feels very comforted by that and, and even more trusting. So to build trust and we're talking about within seconds, we're not talking about spending, you know, an hour with a person in our business, we work in seconds and minutes, you know, and we don't have the luxury of, you know, a longterm analysis or,
Charles Raison:yeah. Right. Because as you're coming into a sick person's room, you've got a few minutes. Um, the establishment of rapport and connection has to happen fairly quickly.
George Grant:Oh my God. I mean, in fact, I like to say that the character seekers smell is coming down the hall there, uh, over time. Uh, there's a culture that develops, you know, with this kind of, uh, care responding. And, um, I think, uh, we as human beings, as I said, we, we long for that deep emotional connection with somebody, particularly when we're on the bed and we're in this helpless situation, we want to feel a sense that someone sees me. Yeah. Someone, uh, you know, I use the word Revere someone me.
Charles Raison:Yeah. And, uh,
George Grant:I matter.
Charles Raison:Yeah.
George Grant:And all the machines I'm hooked to and, uh, from feeling this isolated experience where, um, you know, life is not worth,
Charles Raison:uh, as much as I'd hoped for. Yep. Yep. Exactly. You know, such a, so, you know, this is one of the things of course I'm so interested in is, um, the, the potential spiritual health clinicians to be a sort of Vanguard of a humanizing face of healthcare. I mean, it's not exactly big news or new news that healthcare has become very mechanized. And we sort of live by our metaphors, right? If the body is a metaphor to then the person, if the body is a machine that will begin treating people like machines, and, you know, it's a, being a hospital is a very often very alienating, lonely, frightening thing, right? And so somebody that makes that human connection, uh, really, really powerful. So how did you, go ahead, yeah, go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead. Go get Josh.
George Grant:Oh, what I was getting ready to say was that you were asking earlier about
Charles Raison:this
George Grant:evolution of who we are as clinicians and the healthcare market. And I think, you know, that, Mmm. There's always been, you know, a healthy respect in some ways over professional chaplaincy. Uh, but it has had its limitations. And that's another thing that I began to realize that, um, if a person is identified as being, um,
Charles Raison:okay,
George Grant:in some cases sectarian, you know, I kind of person that's representing a religion or religions even so that there's a kind of, um, again, a, an imbalance of
Charles Raison:yeah,
George Grant:that exists when a person enters the room and says, I'm a chaplain. So, um, I, you know, uh, unapologetically have begun to use spiritual health clinician. Um, no, not necessarily in place of, but as a, as an alternative way of describing who we are. Um, because I think
Charles Raison:for some people,
George Grant:um, to be on the inside of the interdisciplinary team is an important value. And if it's seen that we're from the outside, you know, uh, being represented by a church or a synagogue or a mosque or something.
Charles Raison:Mmm.
George Grant:That's not quite, there's not that kind of, um, Oh, you're, you're really here as a part of the, the healthcare fabric.
Charles Raison:[inaudible] and
George Grant:it was important for me, uh, when I began to, uh, you know, grow into my leadership two. Okay.
Charles Raison:Help us help
George Grant:others by expanding the, the role and, and the, the, the kind of identity that be most, um, uh, would be better received, you know, by persons who are not necessarily religious but find themselves to be a very sacred living people, uh, you know, and, uh, looking for, uh, spirituality and their relationships or connections to all sorts of, uh, events in their life and what they appreciate. Yeah. So by changing language, uh, it has become important, uh, for us, uh, at Emory, uh, to be recognized as being a part of a, something that is, um, interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary at the same time. Uh, so that, um, the, the, the widest, um, population of care seekers can, you can feel that, uh, that sense of comfort with a person that has that kind of cultural experience. So how so, so walk us through, because you know, this is a fascinating evolution, right? So you, you start with a sort of a traditional, um, chaplain kind of, uh, approach where the person generally has an identified faith tradition. Often it's coming out of particular church, um, is recognized. It's, there's like all the stuff that goes on to make sure your heart's okay and your blood sugar is okay and all that. And then the chaplain kind of floats along like, like in a kind of like an appendage, right? And often, often something that, you know, somebody wants to be a chaplain or it, there's, there's just defacto this gap between the, the health care they're getting and the chaplaincy, they're the, they're the, they're in the same space, but they're very different. One of the things that amazed me about what you've done is you really have begun to unify them, so to talk, tell me a little bit, you don't really talk to us about, about how you did that. What were the steps, what were the challenges? Because I know there were some, and I know it's ongoing process, but okay. You know, there's some blue jackets in there somewhere. So how, well, this is a, another interesting part of me is that I, uh, I tend to take great risks and I don't worry about it. That's true. And, um, I'm happy to be a disturber, um, uh, because, uh, I only have one life to live here and, uh, I'm going to get the best out of it. So in some decisions I've made about how we define ourselves, I have done so, um, unilaterally yes. And I've said this is who we are. And at first there might be like this quizzical, you know? Wow. Hi. What do you mean? You know, I'm uncomfortable for you being in the, in the world that, that we know not, not as sort of a vision that you have, how about the future, but you know, what's really interesting and I, I've learned a lot from Steve jobs, you know, he was a real icon, you know, uh, with, you know, and he's very famous for saying, uh, I don't need focus groups. And I, I wouldn't say that I, I'm, I'm that much of an authoritarian or dictatorial, but there are certain things that are truly believe in. And as a leader, uh, you, you have to believe in your own cause and your own, um, you know, course. And, uh, so it's, uh, you know, come up in my own leadership roles, I've realized, you know, you gotta be bold or go home. And, uh, I just, you know, I, I try to say things, uh, as I say graciously and, but there are moments when I say, this is what we're doing, you know. And so I, early on, you know, uh, I said, we, we need to move from this identity as, as being pastoral services to spiritual health. And that was an overnight decision. I didn't ask anybody permission. You know, I report to some very fine people that trust me. And, um, we were spiritual health the next day and it, it certainly, I know it brought on questions, really good questions about what is spiritual health? Yeah. How does that fit with this old world? You know, I'd say old worldview of the legacy of chaplaincy, and I want to make sure that I, I'm not denigrating you know, who we are and who we are always been. And we still include, of course, our legacy, uh, identity. We're not turning our backs on anything, but we're just expanding our understanding of how to be with people where they are. Uh, and so I said, Oh, okay, well we're spiritual health. And I began to sort of outline those defining moments and, and for me, the research, uh, application and state of being those three areas, I really got caught up in, uh, for us to become a healthcare discipline in health science. Let's hit again, what are the three research, research, application and state of being? So what state of being, let's start with that one. Okay. So the condition we find ourselves, right? So, um, what does it mean to be spiritually healthy? I mean, we, you know, I, I think those who've come out of traditional backgrounds and religious backgrounds, I sit while I'm religious. What right. Does that equate with spiritual health? You know, it, it can and sometimes not. Yeah. You know, so, um, it, it causes one to wonder and wondering is a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. Because then you expand beyond yourself to think about how others experience the world. And so the state of being, um, I think it goes without saying that we look at physical properties as a state of being, you know, this is how this is what your body is saying today. We look, certainly look at mental properties and saying, this is, you know, uh, we know, we, we, we at least have conjecture about what it means to be mentally healthy. I love the old term hygiene, right. You and I go back, right. So I love that mental hygiene, washing your brain, you know? Right, right. So I had to think about it. It's, or what it would mean if I'm going to change the direction or at least you know, a course and expand our world. I had to seriously consider what is spiritual health. Yeah. You know, what, what would, uh, be the constitution of that and, um, is it up to the individual, uh, to decide for him or herself? Certainly, you know, there's that, but I think it's, it's also a good thing that we point to properties that can enhance, you know, our health, uh, in spiritual, in the spiritual domain. Yeah. And, uh, and you know, I'm really been helped Chuck recently, you know, you've been producing videos for Emory, spiritual health on YouTube and you know, you know, you, you really have caught the imagination of this expanded world view of spiritual health, right? Yeah. Because it's, it's not about you being a theologian or religionists, uh, it's about you being a person that values, uh, the cultural nuances of the world and, and appreciating your own story and the sacred worth of your own story and how you and your own wonderment again, wonder man is right. Yeah. I'm really, I'm really, uh, you know, and by being on that now, you know, we're in the midst, the COBIT 19 pandemic, it's, it's, uh, we, it to, uh, take our temperature, you know, in terms of what it means to be emotionally healthy, spiritual health and mental health is, it's so important right now in terms of our coping. Absolutely. So you and I and Jenny Mascaro, uh, um, we, we, uh, Kim Palmer, you know, and others in our research space, no developing, uh, a little survey. Yeah. You know, one survey, yeah. This year. Um, you know, what a great a way of a person being able to check in with him or herself. Right. And only it only takes one minute, you know, and we have it rigged. So it's an online thing and, um, and very easy to do. I think we're moving into a world that, uh, we're not anticipated. Uh, so I, we're still defining what it means to be spiritually healthy. And so that to me is that state of being, um, property. Yeah.
Charles Raison:And then, uh, the research.
George Grant:Yeah. The research man. I mean, it's, um, I have this, I had this crazy notion, right? Um, four. Yeah. Since, uh, you know, uh, professional chaplaincy has been around at Emory for over 60 years. Mmm. And, you know, in the world of chaplaincy, um, there there's been fits and starts with no, how do we conduct research on these things that are unseen, you know, um, that certainly can, it can be anecdotally felt and so on and so forth. But Mmm. For me to move, um, to move and expand into the world of health science, we had to be about research. You know, my, my superior Dane Peterson, uh, he's responsible for all of them are healthcare. Um, he said, what would it take to be, you know, the very, at the very top of your field. I said, research, research, research. Yeah. I came into this role about six years ago and I took it to heart. Um, and, uh, I, I've really taken a, a good deal of pride into myself around how we have grown a research then. And, uh, you know, I knew that we needed to have the best, and so I reached out to you and, and you joined the team and then you brought, uh, Jenny Mascaro into our team and it's taken off. Yeah,
Charles Raison:yeah, absolutely. Right. So this is a real, I mean, you and I have talked about this at such length, this idea of that, you know, if, if, if humans have this sort of evolved capacity, um, for spiritual experience or, or, or an evolved need for an input from that realm, of course, recognizing that it's a complex rum, maybe hard to define, but we roughly have a sense of kind of what we mean by that, that, that, that meeting that need, um, is going to be directly relevant to health and should be part of, of, of healthcare. Not in a kind of woo way, but in his sort of really like you sort of talking about biology, like in this really straight forward way. You know, people when, especially when people are stressed, when they're sick, they, many of them have a yearning to feel connected to some kind of higher reality or, or connected to the meaning of their lives or connected to their faith tradition. Um, how do
George Grant:we, how do we integrate that into healthcare in America as another way of adding a human face to it? Right, right, right. And we talked about this a lot, that rather than just making assumptions, if something was going to work, we've set out to try to study it and then, you know, see if it works. Great. Can it be made to work better if it didn't quite work well enough? Can we iterate on it? You bit to build something basically. And to try to use scientific methodology to identify ways to optimize how spiritual health clinicians interact with patients in ways that better promote patient outcomes. Right. I mean, we talked about this forever and it's such an interesting idea. And um, uh, you know, I mean, of, of the research we're doing, what strikes you as being really memorable? Um, I think, uh, the fact that we are retooling the spiritual health clinicians and to this understanding that intervention work is, is, uh, is here now we're in it and we can't survive actually as a discipline without it. So I've been trying to forecast, you know, the, uh, the knee and to sort of almost backfill, you know, to make sure that, uh, well we are somewhat protected so that we can be with the care seekers, uh, where we are Mmm. Of the greatest need. Right. So the, the world too is, um, it has gotten, um, very, uh, invested in understanding burnout in health care. So yeah, we, uh, we're also turning a great deal of attention to, um, you know, healthcare workers and providers and, uh, so that they too can survive. So it, it, it's almost as if, you know, we started this, this battle, uh, way before at 19. You know, we, we started to anticipate, uh, what is economical and what works. Yeah. You know, it, it used to be chalk and I, I'm not, again, I don't mean to diminish or denigrate, uh, who we have been, uh, to this point. But passive listening was kind of like the hallmark of what it meant to be, you know, in the spiritual health professions, um, that it was certainly understanding, you know, almost Rogerian. You know, I'll repeat back to you what I say, that sort of thing. Mmm. But I felt like that's not good at all. You know, and it almost in some ways when it gets the grain of my own psychodynamic background, but I realized that we needed to see ourselves as interventionists and that if we are too, uh, really be considered, Mmm. I a part of health science and I'm a part of a discipline that is integral to Oh personnel. We had to develop, um, the interventions and we have to study them to make sure that they actually do something. Yeah. And, uh, so the, the exciting part about that, uh, and I, I give Emory that large, all the credit. Um, we've been given a green light, you know, nobody's ever said to me, slow down. Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course, you know, it's, it's, it's my bulldog sort of nature of it to say, we're going to do this. And then people say, and after it's kind of a, I'm sure that people squirming, and then after it's other, I say, Oh wow, that really makes sense. That's really working. You know, uh, you know, just an example of sort of this reunification and becoming clinicians know[inaudible] to say that you're a clinician. Well, that you know, that since you know some people's hair on fire, right. How can you call yourself a clinician? Yup. You're a chaplain. Yep. And so too, to listen and, and appreciate what people there, their own perception. I mean, that's, that's who we are, but at the same time, we have to go out and tell people who we are. Yeah. So, uh, one of the ways in which we started to do this, uh, is to put them in lab coats. We got the blue lab that I'm going to show you. Mmm. Magically appears, but we had these long blue lab coats and even the Lake, the controversial, right. There's a whole hierarchy. Like got to have the short jacket. You got the long jacket. Yep. Yep. But where, you know, we're postgraduate trained to people, you know, and, and some of us have just as many years of education as persons in medicine. Absolutely. And so yeah, I felt like that was also a step toward a, uh, a new film, sort of soap respect for clinicians. And then they began to take in the reason for research and research literacy and you've been a part of our research literacy program. So as they become more comfortable with that and then see themselves as actually fulfilling orders, you know, in, in the environment of care continuum of care, then you know, you look back on it as well, we need to find a way to reimburse that. So I've had this understanding that that's, that's our future. Yeah. A lot of people
Charles Raison:don't share that idea, but I'm okay with that. I like what we're doing. Yup. So this is fascinating, right? If you're gonna, if you're healthcare, you know, health care clinician, each one has a range of, of sort of techniques, you know, if you've got problem a, you know, clinician a comes in and does, you know, and, and, and so this, this goes to this idea that that spiritual health is something that is actual enough that on average, you know, better and better interventions to enhance it. It can be developed and delivered and, and figured out how to deliver them better and better. Right. So, I mean, this is something that you and I have, have, um, you know, work together with is this idea of, okay, you know, so which interventions and, uh, why don't we talk a little bit about CCS. H
George Grant:yeah, yeah. Uh, let's do that. Um, compassion centered spiritual health is what you're referring to. And, um, this has been a joint project with the center for contemplative science and compassion based ethics at Emory. Uh, led by lobe song naggy. And, uh, he developed a, the program that you're well versed in called CBCT, cognitively based compassion training, and began to, um, study that and you were one of the very first scientists to get engaged in that work to see if this kind of the compassion meditation training can actually make a difference in a person's anxiety, depression, um, all sorts of other features. And, um, I knew, uh, when we were developing our own research efforts that we needed to find, Mmm. A kind of, um, expression of intervention that would be inclusive of a variety of, uh, persons where they are and, and not just, you know, a particular bent toward it or religious, um, artifact or something of that nature. So it seemed to me that the world of meditation or this kind of compassionate expression, uh, that needed to be where we, we develop our, our own ways of, of attending to people. So when you looked around, we looked at MBSR, we looked at, you know, relaxation response, all sorts of other mindfulness trainings and so forth before we actually, I decided on the home grown right here at Emory. And I'm glad we did that because it, it meant a lot to our department that it's sort of like, um, when you interviewed him for a job and somebody internal candidate and you forced them to go through a national search like I did and you're thinking, okay, we looked at everybody, but the best is right here, you know? Yeah. Um, so we did that and I went to love song who was, you know, he's a, he's a noted person. You, you're good friends with him. He's a former, uh, Tibetan Buddhist monk and, uh, is, you know, now has a family here, you know, in Atlanta and has developed such a great center for this kind of work. And I got together with him and I said, love off. I would love to have a seven and a half minutes. Introvert mentioned that is a derivative of CBCT. Yeah. And he didn't, he didn't take long, but I think about it, he said, we can do that. And so we're talking about, you know, sort of condensing, you know, I, uh, a rather vigorous training and CBCT that takes, you know, weeks. Yeah. Um, and two to really get the essence, uh, of that training and boil it down into something that can be utilized on average in that time period at the bedside for patients at the bedside for patients. And which would have been, it's very novel, right. Because in the spiritual health professions, we, we don't have a lot of studies, uh, studying intervention, so just wasn't around. Yeah. And I knew that this was going to be a pioneering effort. And, um, I've been very appreciative of the relationship[inaudible] so we've co-developed, you know, these interventions. We were fortunate that we've been building a research team and, um, our lead scientist, Jenny Mascaro, who I, I'd have to say you were instrumental in recruiting her and you direct our research program in spiritual health. And so, yeah, you know, we, uh, we're, we're really growing in the sense that, um, and in the midst of a study right now, that if it shows some efficacy, it moves the needle. Uh, we're off and running. You may want to say something. Well, yeah, so right. I mean, you know, we've been doing this study, we were very fortunate. We got funding from the mind and life folks to do a study where we trained half the, the, the spiritual health clinicians, you know, the chaplains and the old language, half of them got training in that full CBCT, which, you know, takes a number of weeks, half did traditional chaplain training without that element. And then, um, we look to see, well, does, does, does, does really honing in on this cha, this compassion based kind of training. Does it, does it help the chaplains, the spiritual health clinicians? Does it help them have less burnout? Do they do better? Are they more compassionate to themselves? And, um, can we see a signal in the changes in the patients that they, um, come and provide your consults? We say minister
Charles Raison:to, but I think you know, that they come and do a spiritual intervention on and uh, you know, we've published one paper to small sample, but it does look like, like training helps. Um, the, the, the, the spiritual health conditions, the chaplains themselves have less burnout and anxiety. But you know, we're in the middle, but we have some preliminary data to suggest that actually the chaplains that are trained in CBCT when they deliver the CCS age, it's a lot of acronyms, but you know, they've gotten a CBC, keep training the whole thing. They come in, they've got that seven minutes at the bedside. We'll see. But the preliminary data suggests that the patients that get that actually are less depressed, less anxious. They feel better afterwards. And of course that's huge, right? Because something you didn't say, George, uh, is that you guys, uh, you folks at at, uh, spiritual health see about a hundred thousand, maybe more than a hundred thousand consults a year. Many, many patients and not, not a few house staff also. Right? So, you know, we've had this vision and we've talked about it a lot that, you know, you think about, well, you know, if you can enhance a chaplain's ability to tap into that spiritual health need defined as we've sort of said, not just as a faith thing, but this longing for connection with, with the sacred, with something that's more than just our own little burdens. Um, you know, if we as, as spiritual health conditions can optimize how we do that, even if you only get four or 5% improvement, you spread that over a hundred thousand patients, you begin to see a huge public health benefit and, and you know, you demonstrate that, wow, there is a empirically validated way that is secular enough that it, it, it has a wide range of people that it works for. That's huge. Right? So this is the, you're right, you and I have been involved in this work. We'll see. You know, you never count your chickens before they're hatched. We'll see what the study shows us when it's finally all done. But, but the study itself is an example of an effort not to just go claim something and then say, well, that's it. You know, because we named it it, you know, but we actually are working on it, you know, and we'll improve it over the years and we'll keep working at it. And, uh, but I mean, you know, George, I think one of the things you haven't said is that this work is, there's a huge now national interest in this work. I mean, the work you and your team are doing are beginning to transform. I think in many ways. How, how chaplains begin to think of themselves, more spiritual health clinicians and more as people that can really optimize their ability to be compassionate, which of course you know, is a, you know, surgeons, uh, is paid, you know, to sew you up and cut your opener. You know, the, the spiritual health clinician, their, their job is to, to a large degree, to be able to establish that kind of compassionate and empathetic bond that we talked about in the beginning. Right? So it really is directly in line that the compassion training is, is like the, a prime deliverable of what it means to be a spiritual health clinician, which is why it's so exciting. And for those of us that are working in this field of how can we integrate meditation into healthcare,
George Grant:um, so this is why, you know, the, the spiritual health, um, sort of program is just, it's, you've heard me say this a million times, I cannot think of anything more unique, um, because it, the training lines up so nicely with your, your prime mandate. Um, I should just so you know, in the mentors we have left, actually, let me, um, let, let's tie this together. You and I've talked to her last week about something that I find quite striking, which is, so here we are in the middle of the covert 19 pandemic as we record this. Um, you know, it's early April, 2020, 20, 20 and the rates are going up. They're going up, unfortunately, very fast in Georgia. I'm up in Wisconsin today, kind of isolated in place and we're going up here. Mmm. Your clinicians, your spiritual health clinicians are still in the, they're in the fray. They're in the mix. And that's not been the case everywhere. So talk about that. What's it been like to you take this new idea of a spiritual health clinician as somebody that's in fact integral to the health care team? They're not, they're not an appendage, you know, or they're not somebody you bring in to say last rights. They, they're their part of the health treatment. What's it been like? Yeah, uh, it's been, uh, exhausting, uh, prideful, uh, exhilarating, Mmm. And invigorating. I mean, all of the above. I think the understanding of ourselves as essential clinicians, um, there is kind of a, sometimes there's resistance even from within around that kind of self respect. So we're having to overcome, you know, sort of this legacy understanding of who we are. Um, but we again, been encouraged over our value and to carry on and, and stay in. And so we've had to adapt and, uh, utilize telephoning into rooms, you know, or are isolated telephone and families and say, I'm here on the unit with your loved one because there's no visitor policy. I'm leaning up against a wall with a Mmm. Okay. Provider or, uh, other health care workers as they debrief or, you know, the, the stress of the moment. Yeah. Um, this is where we're needed, you know, it's the front lines. I, I'd say we are, we are the, the first responders within the healthcare environment, um, with regard to, you know, the kind of, uh, trauma that is being experienced by healthcare workers. Can you imagine day in and day out, you know, and refrigerated more and all this other kind of stuff. And it's, uh, it can feel very, you can feel very despondent about that. So, Mmm. We're really working hard. I, you know, our director of education,
Charles Raison:Maureen Shelton, you know, she's also pumping out videos and so forth. And
George Grant:we, we've got, you know, uh, our directors on the campuses, Robin Brown, Hey, and Bridgette[inaudible], uh, Jean Robinson and Tim Carr, uh, Beth Jackson, Jordan, uh, Carolina peacock and Darryl Robinson, all these folks are, are really, um, going the extra mile to, to boost the morale of our clinicians so that, Mmm, we don't have this sense of, of crumbling and, and, and can't enter, you know, the fry. But it's a, it's a very powerful moment in time. Um, and, and it is a turning point I think in, uh, how we understand ourselves, uh, as a part of the healthcare continuum. And, and, and I truly believe that, uh, this is a moment in time that we, we take advantage of and, um, hi, I'm very proud of what we are accomplishing in that way. Yeah. So we take our emotional temperature with the share every morning, and, uh, at the end of the week, we're going to get a graphic of how we're doing. Mmm. There are all sorts of ways that, uh, we're linking together Zune calls all day long and ventilation moments and all of that. But Mmm. It, it, it certainly has changed, uh, all of life, uh, in our society, uh, what we're experiencing and, uh, I think we're all learning new things in order to be at our best.
Charles Raison:Well, thank you George. Um, we're at our time. Um, I'm Charles raison, I am with the center for the study of human health at Emory university and of course I'm also a director of research on spiritual health, uh, with George. We've been talking with George Grant who is the executive director of spiritual health Woodruff health science center. Thank you George. Stay well and uh, you know, of course I'll, I'll see you on zoom as we keep working together.
George Grant:Thanks Chuck. I appreciate this opportunity.
Charles Raison:How has everything
Speaker 1:health is every campus, everything[inaudible] health is everything.
Charles Raison:Thank you for listening to health is everything you know. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to subscribe, share it with a friend or rate it on Apple podcasts. You can follow the Emory university center for the study of human health at Emory, C S H H on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Until next time. I'm Dr. Charles raison wishing you the best of health.