Best Of Sales Skills Podcast

Are you on the right commission plan? Fred Viet

July 19, 2021 Mark McInnes/Fred Viet Season 2 Episode 57
Best Of Sales Skills Podcast
Are you on the right commission plan? Fred Viet
Show Notes Transcript

Fred is a senior sales leader with Aircall and in our recent conversation we talked about what does a good comp plan look like and what are the main challenges in rolling out a plan.

There were a couple of really interesting pieces in here you’ll love.

Firstly, your comp needs to be aligned with your geographical location. Different geographies require a different mix of base and comms.

Secondly, that as the business grows, leaders need to be ready to change the plan because, salespeople tend to focus on activities that produce the most commission for them.

This is a great way to solve some of your bigger business strategy pieces.

Fred also shares the 5 comp plans he’s orchestrated while at Aircall and the impacts of each of those.

This is a great episode for both sellers and sales leaders.

Fred Viet
https://www.linkedin.com/in/fredviet/

Aircall
https://aircall.io/

Mark McInnes
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-mcinnes/

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Mark Mcinnes:

Welcome to the BOSS podcast. This week, we have Fred Viet as our guest. Welcome Fred. Thanks for coming.

Fred Viet:

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Mark Mcinnes:

Yeah, no problem. It's a absolute delight to have you on just for a bit of background Fred, to let people know. You know, you're, you're the a and Z sales director for business called Aircall. And previously you've been in sales, leadership roles with companies that people might know, things like Microsoft, Lenovo, AWS et cetera. So what else have you been up to tell us a little bit about echo and a little bit about Fred.

Fred Viet:

Good. Yeah. Thank you. So yeah, my name is Fred yet. As you can tell, I'm a, I'm a French guy. I moved to Australia a bit more than 10 years ago. So I call Australia home as well, to be fair. I've been in the it industry for a bit more than 15 years. Most of the time in big companies. So you name them? I started, my carrier was with Lenovo. IBM. Then I moved to Microsoft. I went back to Europe to to run the the channel for Veritas technology for Western Europe. Then I came back again in, in Australia to to look after the channel for Amazon web services on yeah. Being over the year, I decided to change. I mean, when you become a bit older, you start thinking, okay, why I'm good at, on what do I enjoy doing on a and I think what I like on where I'm good at is really building business. So at the support unity to join air Corps, to run the the AINS that business on really build the AINS ed on going after our APAC. Very near future. So that's why I took the challenge are coding in fewer few wards is a, is a French scale-up. So we started the business in 2014. On on very simple idea was more, most company are using SAS business. Every single it system are interconnected. So very quickly you plug your email with your CRM. So everything is connected through API is easy to use. You can run data, but you still interact with your customer a lot with the phone on your phone system is a side on. It's isolated from all your other interactions. So the idea was to bring the phone system in the middle of your it stack makes things very easy to use. Very easy to I would say plug and play with all your CRM customer case system to be able to, I would say, bring back all those data or those recording. In the middle of your, of your data on bring more insights on, funny enough is with the residents, I would say even what we are seeing is people are working more and more remotely. You need to have like a very flexible system where you can work from anywhere on it. So that's the idea of fair code because it's a cloud-based phone system, but the thing in point as well is as a manager, you want to able to support your team. To be able to coach them on the fact that you can recall course go back to them, listen to them on coach your team. It's something that we are, we are seeing more and more traction. So so that's that's our mission on on the other good news. We had a really good news last week. We raise a one 20 million for series.

Mark Mcinnes:

Wow.

Fred Viet:

We became a unicorn. So that was a big milestone is just the beginning of the journey, but it's going to help us to to grow further on, invest more focus.

Mark Mcinnes:

Wow. Congratulations. They go. You heard that first on the boss podcast. Well, I'm not afraid of them or what I'm to everyone at Aircall. It certainly sounds like a product that, you know, sales enablers and, and sales leaders would be very keen to implement because you know, there's so many things going on. Right and wrong on a, on a telephone call and we need to be able to capture those. So like you said, so that we can coach your team around what what's really working with other parts of our team and perhaps, you know, areas where we might be able to eat out a little bit more efficiency or effectiveness from our sales team. So really pleased to have you on. I think, I think we're going to have a great conversation today, but we're not talking about telephones today. Are we? And what are we going to talk about? Fred?

Fred Viet:

Hey. Yeah, we're not going to talk about that. We were going to what I would like is to share with your journey because we were a B2B company where a SAS, SAS company, we've got a nice project. We've got good marketing engine, but as every single a B2B company, we need sales on. It's a variable. Very good topics as I've been in Salesforce or my carrier on, on it's it's yeah. I love this topic on these one thing. Very important. If you speak about sales is the compensation plan. This will drive the behavior of your sales, but most important, if you think about air quote on the journey, we, we came from like zero annual revenue. Few millions now on, I would like to share with you, what was your thinking on how many steps, how many iteration we had on competition plan based on or current position or financial objective on, on what was very important for us at the time?

Mark Mcinnes:

Okay. Yeah, I think, this is going to be really important because nearly every salesperson on the. Is not sure. Well, every business seems to have a separate, a different commission plan, right? So when you move from one business to another, and then you're never really sure if you're getting a fair deal as a salesperson or not. So I think this is going to be really valuable for people to be able to figure out and compare themselves to it, to what we've got here and your mindset around that. Okay. Commission structures are really interesting because on one hand, Salespeople get a bad rap. You know, we hear terms like commission breath, you know, I think everyone's heard that before, you know, or your just, or salespeople are just coin operated, you know, and you know, so you're just trying to write business so that you get the commission, but when businesses structure, they. The renumeration so heavily focused on targets and on commission. There's nothing really else. There's not really anything else that salespeople can do. We need to have a focus on commission. So we send them, I think we send a mixed signal to people often. So I'll be really interested to hear what you've got to say about how we should be setting these things up. Where should we start?

Fred Viet:

I think, yeah, it's a good point. What you what's your thing, but of course everyone is looking at the sides because yeah, we w we've got like a base on incentive on, on, I think, you know, The sets plan need to reflect few things. On, on, on, I would say that there are four to five key elements. The first one I would say is your service plan need to be aligned with your care. On on, on thinking about that, we've got a customer obsession. That's that season it's, it's very important for us. So that mean your sales plan need to be at a need to reflect that. That means you need to reflect the right behavior. You need to incentive your sales team to go after a new customer. Doing the right things for them. So that would be the first thing is your sales plan needs to be aligned with the culture you want in your, in your company. Few as our point, very important need to be scaled. You start you've you've got perhaps you're, you're just like echoed code in France with few self-esteem, but seven years later, you're in Australia with different culture. You're in us. You're in, in different I would say countries in EMEA. So this needs to be scalable, important as well is, needs to be, I would say, align with, with your financial metrics. Think about that. On on, especially if you think about like a startup scale-up, you will have different phase. You want revenue, you want cash, you want growth. So every time it needs to be aligned, you cannot just overpay yourself. The rep for the wrong behavior, burning cash. I mean may walk the first two months, but then you're going to have issues to go. I'll have more funding. So very important to always have this gain of I would say alignment between what you want to drive on the financial metrics. You mentioned about like composition plan is, is for, I would say remuneration we've gotten as they are feeling as well. It needs to be transparent on it needs to also show a pass to Kaia gross on progression. So we'll go a bit deeper on that, but that's how we structure that. And I would say the last one is to yeah, you need to incentive your, your team to do the extra mice. So that would be the 5k demons for me.

Mark Mcinnes:

Okay. I'll lock that. And you know, you mentioned there about setting up the goals for the business as it grows as an external consumer. I'm always scared when I go into a business. And one of the first things, the sales leaderships, or the, or the C-level guys and girls say to me is, you know, we're thinking about changing the commission plan and I'm like a hallmark, God, he's going to be, I'm like a major morale challenge. You know, people bring me in to help them, you know, Prospect motors to book more meetings. And if on the other side, if you're trying to generate people, if you're trying to get people to change their behavior and you're changing the way they're being paid at the same time, that that can be a real challenge. It's a big thing for people, you know, making these changes. So if we can set the plan up right in the first place, it's gonna make a lot less headaches on the way through.

Fred Viet:

It's you're right. comp plan is always a challenge because. It's, it's not always this moment or like

Mark Mcinnes:

Okay.

Fred Viet:

you're doing too. It's too good. You're going to lose the money or it's not good enough. You're going to lose your talents. So it's always one of the most critical part of the journey of of a company growth.

Mark Mcinnes:

Yep. Yeah. But, and I did like your, your first comment there about the culture, because, you know, I'm fortunate in that I get to see inside a lot of businesses and there are definitely some businesses that have a really strong. Hunter new business, you know, it's like sign new business, you know, and then move it, get some more business handed over to the customer success team. And, and their renumeration is typically very, very much focused on bringing new logos or net new business in, you know, and that's their culture. And they've got a very big focus on that. And then there's other businesses that are maybe taking a more deliberate approach and much more around. You know, get your customers my cure, that they stay with us for a really long time, make Sure. they've got a great experience. And, and, and you know, that culture has to be aligned throughout the entire team, but also the salespeople, because, you know, if the sales person's working against that culture, it's not going to be a great feat. And the renumeration, I guess, is going to be focused different. So Where should we look at first?

Fred Viet:

Where we can look at. I think it's where can we start just to perhaps share with you A bit of our journey where we went on the, as I mentioned, I think, well, or at all fifths iteration of our complaint, we just change it like 6, 6, 3 months ago.

Mark Mcinnes:

I got sure. So,

Fred Viet:

I can, I can explain your journey from, I would say when we went from zero to 1 million a year on the volition on. Why we sync, we've got the right complaint now to go to, I would say a few

Mark Mcinnes:

So what were the mistakes, what were the mistakes that you had when you, when, when you had it set up first between one and one, 1 million So in the small, small, when you're a small, small business, how was the plan set up and why was that a mistake?

Fred Viet:

Yeah. So we started with, can you hear me?

Mark Mcinnes:

Yep. No problem.

Fred Viet:

So the, the first one was we decided to go with a team team comp model, like not individual, but we are all one family. We want Vero CT on a, you know, we've got inbound leads coming. We want people to jump on it. We don't, we, we want to have like these kind of thrive to gather or spirits. So we went with like, this is the monthly target. We achieve as a team, it's a 0, 0 1 achievement. So let's go for that. I think it was good because it creates the core team. Everyone is working together. You aware one day someone can pick up your deed on, on, I would say close it for you. There's there's no competition. So really good for that. I think you create the foundation. point is how I would say that the, the negative points is, how do you push for overachievement? You don't, how do you assess on, on, on as soon as you grow, you want to be able to, I would say, I says, you're the performer on, on, on there. We'd say you're less performance people to be able to coach them on. I think when you've got like Tim complainants, Not easy to do that. So that's why we decided to say, okay, we are above the 1 million IRR press. We need to change it on the, we need to accelerate growth. That was part of the journey. So let's go on, change it.

Mark Mcinnes:

So what was, what did number two look like? So if the second

Fred Viet:

yeah, number yay. Number two was, was perhaps. Can we say with perhaps the, the, the mistake on, on, you know, it's exactly what you mentioned at the beginning. It says just chasing money was like, okay, you've got like commission on, on on a deal. You, you close. So roughly you've got targets on, on, you've got like massive commission for every single deal you bring. It's like a percentage of what you bring. So you motivate people. On Hugo's through gross, crazy gross. The point with that, I think it's good. Everyone on the, some that you sign, you, you know exactly how much you're going to have. can sign a good customer, a bad customer, like a on, on, I mean, customer that is not going to stay long-term for you or is not the right fit for, for us on for them. So you don't drive the right behavior. And then I think that the most important thing is you've got no control about your financial And then as you remember, one of the key element is making sure you're compliant is aligned with your financial metrics on what you want to drive. So we went through that and we say, okay, that's good. We've got the growth, but it's not sustainable. We will not be able to scale with that. We'll not be able to to bring the right behavior we want. So let's go and change it very, very quickly on, on that we did, I would say. Yep.

Mark Mcinnes:

And was that because people were so focused on just bringing new business rather than sustainable business, or was it because the financial model was, was not going to work for the business.

Fred Viet:

Bit of both financial model was not, was not was not good enough. I mean the, the, yeah, the complainant was not really aligned with the financial, so the. Hi,

Mark Mcinnes:

So, and so was that a typical, low base high commission scenario? So, you know, you pay somebody X amount of bison, and I got a percentage of the, of the businesses.

Fred Viet:

Most likely we are, we are on, if you think at OT, we are at 60 or 60 40, but because the the OT was uncapped on, on, I would say we. Based on dollar value for every single deal without any quality metrics this was going off.

Mark Mcinnes:

Gotcha. Okay. So it was 60, 40 OTA uncapped commission. That's great. Great to Okay. So what was the third in a row? What did that.

Fred Viet:

The 30, we went to like more I would say I'm going to speak about the third on the force because they are, they are quite linked together on it. It's more like what you, what you can see in big company. So you've got a. You've got targets, individual targets on a base on these targets. You've got, you know, the, the Garcia and calf. So roughly 75%, you've got no commission from 75 to a two above 100, you multiply by two. So you do 75%. You've got on the 50% of your commission. 100 you've got 100 on above is multiply by two and kept.

Mark Mcinnes:

Got it.

Fred Viet:

When you do that, you always know, people are not going to achieve. People are going to overachieve on your bird park is in the middle. So you've got control over your budgets

Mark Mcinnes:

Yep. But that was kept. So in

Fred Viet:

now was uncapped.

Mark Mcinnes:

on kept. Okay. I think people want these, these find these details. So it's, and, and, and. Base versus commission. So in the previous interaction, it was 60, 40. What do you call this one Now Is this more like 80, 20?

Fred Viet:

Now same, we keep at 60 40,

Mark Mcinnes:

Okay. Good to know.

Fred Viet:

again, you need to you remember, I say, you need to to sync globally on adapt your plan locally. And if you think about that, it's, it's sick. Exactly. We've got this mental model, you know, like, okay, that's the complaint. But in Australia is going to be 60 40, for example, but in France or in Germany, it's going to be perhaps a bit different. I know, for example, in us it's more like a 50, 50 it's it's it's again, w w you need to be flexible on you need to honor some the local culture, the local best practice in your country to be able to adapt if needed.

Mark Mcinnes:

Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So America, 50, 50 Australia, 60, 40 Germany.

Fred Viet:

Are 60, 40 as well, or sometime it can, it can just change a bit, but yeah, the, the, where I'm most likely to find the 60, 40.

Mark Mcinnes:

okay. That's interesting.

Fred Viet:

Re

Mark Mcinnes:

So.

Fred Viet:

that we are in B2B. So that's why we see this kind of 60, 40 plan because you still have, you still expect like a high quality paper on, they always request a, quite, quite a comfortable base as well.

Mark Mcinnes:

Yep. Yep. No, absolutely. No, I get it. Okay, so number five, is that where we're up to now? Or are we, or are you on number six?

Fred Viet:

No, no, no. Ju just few, a few commands on the number three, four. I think it was, it model. You, you control roughly you control your budget, you push for the extra miles because you, you multiply by 12 of 100%. So you push people. The only thing you've got is two things. We did Mazraani Wansink the monthly rent, right? So it's, it was only a one dimension target. You bring a deal, you need to do, like, let's say 100 Delara a month. It's just monthly run rate, but there's no quality about this deal. So that's, that's one thing very important keep in mind. The second one is you've got well or sales ripe on, on windows. How to send back. So think about that. I mean, come on UDI. Didn't do that. Yeah. When you, when you see the, you know, you see you're not going to achieve 75%, where do you do you stop at 74 or you stop at 10% on? You will do one 20% the following months on it. Normal behavior or, you know, we, we, we one said that dark clever or they always, you know, I remember when I was a sales, the first thing is, is really to understand your complaint on our, to maximize your complaint. So so that was the second effect sandbagging on. When you're, I would say small, you can, you can have a bad month, a good month. Okay. Why not? But the more you grow, the more you're going to go for your series C series D predictability is very important on think about like, we all have a good in mind is to go to IPO. If you start having those kinds of like a good quarter or really bad quarter on no predictability market is not going to.

Mark Mcinnes:

Do you look risky?

Fred Viet:

Okay.

Mark Mcinnes:

Yeah. Yeah. And you know what, the CFO doesn't like that either because they're trying to plan out and smooth out their cash flow. And if the, if they've got money coming in and out, you know, in crazy peaks and troughs, you know, that makes it really hard for them to manage it. Yeah.

Fred Viet:

Exactly what we did as well in, in this one is we, we tweeted a bit more in, in this version is we, we brought us where some quality things so at this time, one, one very important things for us was cash. When gross mode, we want to bring the cash. So we, we decided to start giving a bit like a deal. Deal sign. So it was not just any more than monthly run. Right. But if you've got like a front payment, this is double your, your deal value versus your targets. we brought those kind of things and it worked, it worked quite well. It really well because we've seen an increase in term of I would say deal close up front. So w w it works really well. The point it was perhaps too much. The multiply by two was, was too good for the set of the rape we are on. I would say, think about the return on investment, the fight to have the, the cash up front on the money we pay. The sales was perhaps not not the best return on investment.

Mark Mcinnes:

Okay. I understand. So how would the salespeople, and we're getting a bit off track here. So how are the salespeople bringing that those payments forward? Were they offering a discount for that or were they just using their persuasion, persuasion, persuasion skills? And making that part of the original deal or part of the deal, because I'm wondering whether the business was paying for twice, you know, by discounting giving, you know, two and a half percent discount, for example, for paying in the first X amount of dies. And then.

Fred Viet:

So for every single Modella In, I mean, for every single size, you always see that you've got like a price when you pay monthly on, on, on the price when you pay I would say upfront, you've got the same when you pay your insurance. I just renew my car insurance yesterday. There's a on, they give you the price. If you pay straight away your yearly, upfront, or if you pay monthly. So we've got the same in, B2B. But it's funny, you know, what you mentioned is, is how. Compliant can change behavior because when you start saying it's multiplied by two, people are going to do the extra mile to close a deal you're already upfront. They will not propose the monthly option. They will go straight away with that on, better with that a lot. So it's, it's fun. Now you can see the point. If you think about that, when you do that on, on your ratio is not. You've got all your team achieving their target added value, but the business can miss their monthly run rate business target. So you, you start having this kind of gap, or I would say a discrepancy between yourselves performance on the reality of the business. So you need to start tweeting it.

Mark Mcinnes:

Ah, that's interesting. That's interesting. It's good to know that by making some of these changes, you can actually impact the real business outcomes. That's interesting. Okay. So,

Fred Viet:

I think we, we had something with that on, on with judge change on, I'm going to present you with the, the more that we've got currently. We think it drive the right PAVR. So on, on the way I've seen some good results so far in term of, of, I would say the quality we want the business performance we want on the behavior we want from there, from the sales team.

Mark Mcinnes:

Okay, so where are we now? What have you.

Fred Viet:

So we keep the same. It's very important is for every single deal. First of all, no, you've got to commission five re single. We decided to stop this gain of three, that 75%, because it's brings sometimes sandbagging. We don't want that. Sometime you can you can have a good monster Bandman suite. We want predictability. We want to have, like, we still want people to do the extra miles on proof, but we don't want them to stop because they think they're not going to be at the three short. So that the first thing on the, we have

Mark Mcinnes:

so. people got paid commission On everything now,

Fred Viet:

On every single deal. Yeah.

Mark Mcinnes:

okay. Yep.

Fred Viet:

We still have few things and we've got three components on every single deal that are going to, I would say, influence your deal commission. The first one's still the same, the monthly rent rates, revenue you are bringing. It's still important because it's it's so business. The second one is the quality ratio quality of the deal and the.

Mark Mcinnes:

measure that?

Fred Viet:

So very simple. What is important for us on these two aspect for us important? The commitment, is it a month, two months? Is it a 1224 or 30, 36 months commitment? Or why commitment is important? Is. When, when a customer sign a long-term deal is committed to make it work is committed to invest do the right setup in the system, the right integration, the right training. So commitment mean commitment from the business as well to implement the right things, to make the solution work. So that's one thing very important for us. The second one is monthly payment. The payments, sorry. Is it going to be monthly? Is it going to be 3, 6, 12, 24 months upfront? So you see that it's like a, a matrix on for every single we've got like a metric with a ratio. We just stopped doing the multiplied by two, because it was two to 10 errors. But if you sign a deal, that is no commitment on monthly payment. Yeah. Your rate, your quality ratio it's 0.9. Why? Because it's, it's not good. It's not good for us. It's not good for the customer, but when you start signing a deal, for example, of I would say 24 months commitment, 12 months upfront, you multiply your deal value by one point 55. So that's the first things. last one. So we've got the monthly rent rates. We've got the quality ratio on, we've got the a ratio.

Mark Mcinnes:

what's that?

Fred Viet:

Hey, roughly. That's what gives you 100% of your commission when you do 100% of your Mr. Targets on, if you remember at the beginning, I mentioned that Swanson very important in your company. Commission planning needs to be transparent on to show the carrier progression. And that's how it works. So everyone knows that for context, creative level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, what they have to do to achieve those level in term of number of design, monthly run, rate, sign competency, check on what does it mean in term of a rate? So that mean by how much we're going to multiply their deal commission for every single deal.

Mark Mcinnes:

Okay, that makes sense.

Fred Viet:

And it's walking because. I'm around 40, I think. Yeah,

Mark Mcinnes:

Yeah.

Fred Viet:

you've got the same age. We, we starting those big company on sagely. You don't know. It's obscure. You, you don't know really. Yeah. Yeah. You, you know, these, this level verb, but it's based on the negotiation you managed to do at beginning of the when you decided to apply for the job on on sometime you've got you're in the company for 10 years, you've got this guy coming on, they did a better job on his more pay than you. We, we don't want that. And they think this new generation, they want transparency. They want to know exactly that's what I'm going to do. I want to know what's the next step. Tell me how I'm going. I'm going to manage to go to the next step of my career. So to be able to be transparent like that on, on show them very clearly, you know, that's the criteria on that? The the gift, I mean, term of remuneration base, a ratio. That really motivate them on, on give them transparency that, that, that, that they're like,

Mark Mcinnes:

Okay. Th that's I think there's some really good points there, but I want to go back to the stop as a way of ending. So what were your five, Hey points again, just because we said them quite some time ago. So, so rather than making people go back and listen, what were those five key points as a way of closing?

Fred Viet:

Make sure your complaint is align with your company culture.

Mark Mcinnes:

Correct.

Fred Viet:

Is it thrive together? The board or customer obsession, but it's need to be aligned to that. That the first point, the second one is the mother needs to be scared. you've got a size today. You will be perhaps twice this size or 10 times the size in the, in the next future. On the remember it needs to be scalable, not on, you will not be in Australia all the time. You will be in other countries. So you need to be able to sync globally act locally, third point, make sure your model is aligned with your financial metrics. There's it's pointless. If you drive the wrong behavior on it's not achieving what your company needs to deliver on the market or for your key stakeholder false points. The one that I touched very at the end is make sure it's transparent on it. Demonstrates on, I would say, explain clearly the growth spas on the progression your team can achieve on what does it mean for them? The last one, it's remember it's a sales plan. So it needs to boost your sales team. You need to keep your, your talented people on. You need to I would say motivate them to go to the extra mile.

Mark Mcinnes:

There we go. This Fred's top five tips for a comp plan, build out, coming from somebody with lots of experience across lots of geographical locations. So that's a big takeaway for me is that we need to have different plans for different geographical locations. And it makes perfect sense. Now that you've said it, but I would not have thought that. So that's actually been a really interesting takeaway for me.

Fred Viet:

Thank you.

Mark Mcinnes:

So Fred w how can people get in contact with if they want to learn more about Aircall? What's the best way for people to do that?

Fred Viet:

The best way is they can they can find me on LinkedIn. So Fred Viet, very, very simple. You can share my email as well. It's Fred dot Viet at air Corp IO. More than a P on the, on the gain. I'm more than happy to share with people. The the document I've got a presentation we've got some Excel files that they can use on stop planning their company. Composition plan. It's it's just something that we, we walk a lot on it. We think it's a really good one. So we are more than happy to share with people or knowledge on their own help them.

Mark Mcinnes:

Lovely. And, and Fred much, I think, are you guys currently looking for staff at them.

Fred Viet:

Yes, we are hiring

Mark Mcinnes:

Yeah. Give yourself a quick plug. Tell me the top two people that you're looking for in case they're listening and they love the sound of your excellent commission plan and want to run across to airport. Who are you looking for? Matt?

Fred Viet:

So we are looking for context secretive. So few of them some business development representative, I'm looking for a customer success manager as well. That's on the sides point of view, but we're also looking at like a support level, one support level, too. That's something very important for us is it's good to have a sales team here locally, but from day one, we have decided to have the support as well, business runner for Australian customer.

Mark Mcinnes:

Yep. I'm not sure. We'll have too many support people listening to this podcast there. Fred, not, I really appreciate you coming on the boss podcast, right? thank you very much

Fred Viet:

thank you very much for having me. I really enjoy this time.

Mark Mcinnes:

Thank you. Ma'am.