{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.902,"body":"[Auto-generated Transcript]"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":2.902,"endTime":6.506,"body":"BioCentury This Week is"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":2.902,"endTime":6.506,"body":"brought to you by CBRE — the global"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":6.506,"endTime":9.876,"body":"leader in commercial real estate"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":6.506,"endTime":9.876,"body":"services, with a specialized practice"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":9.876,"endTime":12.045,"body":"dedicated exclusively to life sciences."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":12.345,"endTime":16.683,"body":"From early-stage biotechs to established"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":12.345,"endTime":16.683,"body":"companies scaling biomanufacturing"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":16.683,"endTime":21.621,"body":"operations, CBRE's life sciences"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":16.683,"endTime":21.621,"body":"experts help companies find, build, and"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":21.621,"endTime":23.923,"body":"optimize spaces where discovery happens."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":24.19,"endTime":27.627,"body":"With deep market intelligence across"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":24.19,"endTime":27.627,"body":"the nation's innovation clusters,"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":27.727,"endTime":32.132,"body":"top-notch facilities, and a network"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":27.727,"endTime":32.132,"body":"of investors and tenants, CBRE has"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":32.132,"endTime":33.566,"body":"what it takes to help you succeed."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":33.833,"endTime":37.337,"body":"This blend of knowledge and relationships"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":33.833,"endTime":37.337,"body":"ensures you receive the best advice"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":37.337,"endTime":40.507,"body":"at every stage—so you can focus"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":37.337,"endTime":40.507,"body":"on bringing therapies to patients"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":45.445,"endTime":49.049,"body":"Can M\u0026A momentum"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":45.445,"endTime":49.049,"body":"carry biotech through year-end?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":49.649,"endTime":52.852,"body":"Welcome to the BioCentury"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":49.649,"endTime":52.852,"body":"This Week podcast."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":52.852,"endTime":57.424,"body":"I'm Jeff Cranmer, executive editor"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":52.852,"endTime":57.424,"body":"at BioCentury, and today we'll"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":57.49,"endTime":64.197,"body":"kick off the pod with BioCentury's"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":57.49,"endTime":64.197,"body":"3Q public markets preview, plus"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":64.431,"endTime":67.067,"body":"biotech in Burnham's Britain."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":67.267,"endTime":72.772,"body":"What does the incoming prime minister's"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":67.267,"endTime":72.772,"body":"agenda mean for UK life sciences?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":73.206,"endTime":81.881,"body":"And we'll also discuss Ionis' ATTR-CM"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":73.206,"endTime":81.881,"body":"miss and Takeda's Orexin program,"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":81.915,"endTime":85.118,"body":"the hits, the misses, and the payoff."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":85.452,"endTime":86.686,"body":"Joining me today"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":87.153,"endTime":91.157,"body":"Loyal Three Lions fan, Simone Fishburn."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":91.458,"endTime":94.294,"body":"Adopted Three Lions fan, Stephen Hansen."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":94.694,"endTime":100.5,"body":"And Lauren Martz, who is just"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":94.694,"endTime":100.5,"body":"riding it out after her daughter's"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":100.533,"endTime":103.002,"body":"Brazil squad goes out early."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":103.369,"endTime":105.405,"body":"But we will be talking biotech."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":105.405,"endTime":112.312,"body":"And Stephen, you spent a good chunk"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":105.405,"endTime":112.312,"body":"of the past few weeks speaking"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":112.312,"endTime":118.151,"body":"to buysiders, bankers about well,"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":112.312,"endTime":118.151,"body":"the state of the public markets."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":118.151,"endTime":118.852,"body":"What did you learn?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":119.252,"endTime":119.419,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":119.419,"endTime":119.986,"body":"Thanks, Jeff."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":120.32,"endTime":123.756,"body":"I think the part that dominated uh"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":120.32,"endTime":123.756,"body":"the discussions most, and is kind"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":123.756,"endTime":126.86,"body":"of the reason why I kind of led with"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":123.756,"endTime":126.86,"body":"that in our story was about M\u0026A."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":127.627,"endTime":130.797,"body":"Just to give you a few numbers to give"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":127.627,"endTime":130.797,"body":"you a sense of kind of where things stand."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":130.897,"endTime":135.802,"body":"so last year was, by the numbers, you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":130.897,"endTime":135.802,"body":"know, one of the best years for M\u0026A, and"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":135.802,"endTime":140.94,"body":"this year is shaping up to really go well"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":135.802,"endTime":140.94,"body":"beyond what, what even we saw last year."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":141.307,"endTime":145.712,"body":"even just sort of honing in on"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":141.307,"endTime":145.712,"body":"deals that had a $1 billion or"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":145.712,"endTime":150.884,"body":"more total deal value last year"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":145.712,"endTime":150.884,"body":"we saw thirty-nine of those deals."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":151.184,"endTime":154.053,"body":"In the first half of this"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":151.184,"endTime":154.053,"body":"year, we've had thirty-three."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":154.42,"endTime":157.857,"body":"So we are seemingly well on"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":154.42,"endTime":157.857,"body":"the way to surpassing that."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":158.258,"endTime":161.294,"body":"Basically, investors were saying"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":158.258,"endTime":161.294,"body":"that that is largely what is kind of"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":161.294,"endTime":165.131,"body":"carrying the sector's momentum sort"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":161.294,"endTime":165.131,"body":"of in the first half of the year."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":165.131,"endTime":168.968,"body":"Um, you know, biotech outperformed"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":165.131,"endTime":168.968,"body":"a lot of the broader markets uh"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":169.002,"endTime":170.436,"body":"pretty much everything except tech."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":170.937,"endTime":175.909,"body":"And, you know, M\u0026A was sort of the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":170.937,"endTime":175.909,"body":"attributing factor for, for a lot of that."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":176.476,"endTime":179.312,"body":"And, you know, I think part of the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":176.476,"endTime":179.312,"body":"reason for that is because there"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":179.312,"endTime":182.916,"body":"were so many specialist investors"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":179.312,"endTime":182.916,"body":"that owned a lot of these names."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":183.216,"endTime":186.886,"body":"So I think one of the cool analyses we"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":183.216,"endTime":186.886,"body":"did in this story is we um we dug into"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":186.886,"endTime":190.79,"body":"the fifteen publicly traded biotechs"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":186.886,"endTime":190.79,"body":"that were acquired for more than a"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":190.79,"endTime":194.494,"body":"billion dollars in the first half, and"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":190.79,"endTime":194.494,"body":"we looked at the thirteen F filings"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":194.594,"endTime":196.162,"body":"for the ownership stakes of those."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":196.429,"endTime":201.434,"body":"And what we found was that across"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":196.429,"endTime":201.434,"body":"these fifteen deals, there was about"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":201.701,"endTime":206.272,"body":"twenty-two point eight billion that was"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":201.701,"endTime":206.272,"body":"being returned to specialist investors."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":206.406,"endTime":209.842,"body":"So that's money that is going to be,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":206.406,"endTime":209.842,"body":"for-- large part of that is going to be"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":209.842,"endTime":214.013,"body":"reinvested back into the sector and going"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":209.842,"endTime":214.013,"body":"to be driving, you know, new ownership"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":214.013,"endTime":215.949,"body":"stakes in, in a lot of biotech companies."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":215.949,"endTime":219.719,"body":"So I like to think of it, if you look"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":215.949,"endTime":219.719,"body":"at uh if you're looking at a ticker and"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":219.719,"endTime":223.022,"body":"you see like a three percent or a five"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":219.719,"endTime":223.022,"body":"percent jump on any given day where there"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":223.022,"endTime":226.893,"body":"isn't news, that very well could be, you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":223.022,"endTime":226.893,"body":"know, specialists coming in and buying"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":226.893,"endTime":230.396,"body":"into a new name because they have all this"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":226.893,"endTime":230.396,"body":"new cash that, that they need to deploy."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":230.797,"endTime":234.133,"body":"So that's definitely a big tailwind"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":230.797,"endTime":234.133,"body":"for the sector here going forward"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":234.901,"endTime":240.44,"body":"So Stephen, you know,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":234.901,"endTime":240.44,"body":"one of the uh questions you asked is uh"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":240.473,"endTime":243.576,"body":"what happens if the AI trade goes bust?"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":243.743,"endTime":245.111,"body":"Why don't you talk about that?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":245.912,"endTime":246.346,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":246.846,"endTime":247.146,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":247.213,"endTime":250.617,"body":"So that was kind of the other, I would"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":247.213,"endTime":250.617,"body":"say, maybe elephant in the room in a"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":250.617,"endTime":254.053,"body":"lot of these conversations were cause"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":250.617,"endTime":254.053,"body":"obviously it was sort of, I was having"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":254.053,"endTime":257.19,"body":"these conversations right around the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":254.053,"endTime":257.19,"body":"time that SpaceX was going public"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":257.19,"endTime":260.46,"body":"and, and doing its IPO, and so that"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":257.19,"endTime":260.46,"body":"came up in a lot of conversations"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":261.027,"endTime":263.596,"body":"just because it was so massive."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":263.696,"endTime":267.367,"body":"And everyone probably knows how big"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":263.696,"endTime":267.367,"body":"these companies are, but it, it was"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":267.367,"endTime":271.304,"body":"this one conversation with Omega Funds'"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":267.367,"endTime":271.304,"body":"Otello Stampacchia that really kind of"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":271.537,"endTime":275.708,"body":"crystallized it, I guess, for me in the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":271.537,"endTime":275.708,"body":"sense that, you know, he was saying, sort"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":275.708,"endTime":280.947,"body":"of gave the analogy that, you know, in"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":275.708,"endTime":280.947,"body":"1911, Standard Oil had a monopoly on oil"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":280.98,"endTime":285.752,"body":"in the US, and it was broken up by the uh"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":280.98,"endTime":285.752,"body":"US government because of that monopoly and"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":285.752,"endTime":290.023,"body":"because it was so big, and it was so big"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":285.752,"endTime":290.023,"body":"in that it had a billion-dollar valuation,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":290.456,"endTime":296.763,"body":"which was about 2% of the US GDP at the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":290.456,"endTime":296.763,"body":"time SpaceX, just post IPO, their market"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":296.763,"endTime":299.565,"body":"cap was equal to six percent of US GDP."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":299.999,"endTime":303.636,"body":"And if you take the seven companies,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":299.999,"endTime":303.636,"body":"including SpaceX, seven companies"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":303.636,"endTime":308.074,"body":"that are making sort of the biggest"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":303.636,"endTime":308.074,"body":"investments in AI, so Nvidia, OpenAI,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":308.074,"endTime":311.311,"body":"Anthropic, Alphabet, Meta, Microsoft."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":311.711,"endTime":316.215,"body":"If you combine their market caps, that's"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":311.711,"endTime":316.215,"body":"over seventeen trillion dollars at the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":316.215,"endTime":320.82,"body":"end of the second quarter, which is"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":316.215,"endTime":320.82,"body":"like fifty-three percent of the US GDP."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":321.354,"endTime":326.392,"body":"So there's just this massive concentration"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":321.354,"endTime":326.392,"body":"of money into a very, very small"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":326.392,"endTime":329.195,"body":"number of companies in the marketplace."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":329.529,"endTime":333.599,"body":"I'm sure people are aware of all these,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":329.529,"endTime":333.599,"body":"you know, debates and discussions about"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":334.167,"endTime":339.605,"body":"whether AI can ever really generate"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":334.167,"endTime":339.605,"body":"enough revenue to, be profitable, given"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":339.605,"endTime":342.475,"body":"the amount of money that has to go into"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":339.605,"endTime":342.475,"body":"data centers and running these things."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":342.508,"endTime":347.98,"body":"A-and it just raises the question that if"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":342.508,"endTime":347.98,"body":"this AI bubble does burst, what happens?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":348.014,"endTime":352.752,"body":"You know, does that drag everything"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":348.014,"endTime":352.752,"body":"else down just given the massive"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":352.752,"endTime":354.42,"body":"size of these, of these companies?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":354.754,"endTime":358.458,"body":"And what happens to that money after"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":354.754,"endTime":358.458,"body":"it kind of comes out of those stocks?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":359.258,"endTime":363.696,"body":"the two sides of it is could drag"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":359.258,"endTime":363.696,"body":"everything down, or it could go looking"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":363.696,"endTime":366.632,"body":"for alpha in other parts of the market."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":366.632,"endTime":370.703,"body":"And, you know, there are some investors"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":366.632,"endTime":370.703,"body":"saying, \"Well, maybe it starts looking"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":370.703,"endTime":374.841,"body":"at places like biotech and starts"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":370.703,"endTime":374.841,"body":"coming in there.\" And so which obviously"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":374.874,"endTime":378.01,"body":"money coming in can be a good thing,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":374.874,"endTime":378.01,"body":"but if you're a fund manager and all"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":378.01,"endTime":381.681,"body":"of a sudden your benchmarks start"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":378.01,"endTime":381.681,"body":"flying straight up because there's all"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":381.681,"endTime":384.55,"body":"this money funding into them, they,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":381.681,"endTime":384.55,"body":"you know, they have to manage those."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":384.55,"endTime":388.554,"body":"So just sort of an interesting thing"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":384.55,"endTime":388.554,"body":"to sort of keep uh keep tabs on."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":388.554,"endTime":392.859,"body":"And just to follow it up with one of"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":388.554,"endTime":392.859,"body":"the early sort of indicators there of,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":392.892,"endTime":397.83,"body":"of how this is going is just keeping"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":392.892,"endTime":397.83,"body":"an eye on the SpaceX as they um you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":397.83,"endTime":401.2,"body":"know, over the next couple months,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":397.83,"endTime":401.2,"body":"because it was a very small float."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":401.2,"endTime":405.238,"body":"Only four percent of the outstanding"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":401.2,"endTime":405.238,"body":"shares went out in their IPO, and"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":405.238,"endTime":409.876,"body":"forty-one percent of the insider shares"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":405.238,"endTime":409.876,"body":"are meant to be unlocked basically"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":409.876,"endTime":411.344,"body":"through the end of the third quarter."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":411.644,"endTime":415.581,"body":"So that's, you know, seven hundred,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":411.644,"endTime":415.581,"body":"eight hundred billion dollars worth"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":415.581,"endTime":417.517,"body":"of shares that are potentially"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":415.581,"endTime":417.517,"body":"gonna come into the market."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":417.517,"endTime":422.288,"body":"So that could be an early indicator of"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":417.517,"endTime":422.288,"body":"how the AI trade is doing, depending"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":422.288,"endTime":425.658,"body":"on how well the stock does  Amid the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":422.288,"endTime":425.658,"body":"flood of new shares sort of coming"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":425.658,"endTime":427.26,"body":"into the uh coming into the market"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":428.294,"endTime":430.863,"body":"Yeah, the uh"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":428.294,"endTime":430.863,"body":"folks you talk to seem to be"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":430.863,"endTime":432.632,"body":"on one side or the other there."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":432.632,"endTime":438.137,"body":"One buy-sider likened it to feeling"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":432.632,"endTime":438.137,"body":"the rumblings of an earthquake."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":438.704,"endTime":444.143,"body":"whereas uh I think James Lee was… he"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":438.704,"endTime":444.143,"body":"sort of seemed to be saying that it's"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":444.143,"endTime":449.816,"body":"very insulated from the impact that the"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":444.143,"endTime":449.816,"body":"mega IPOs are having on other spaces."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":449.816,"endTime":452.051,"body":"So I guess where do you stand, Stephen?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":452.685,"endTime":455.488,"body":"So I think the context"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":452.685,"endTime":455.488,"body":"there was around sort of whether or"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":455.488,"endTime":459.425,"body":"not there could be a liquidity crunch"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":455.488,"endTime":459.425,"body":"for, for biotech companies in the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":459.425,"endTime":466.566,"body":"sense that if you have so much money"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":459.425,"endTime":466.566,"body":"being poured into SpaceX, OpenAI,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":466.566,"endTime":470.536,"body":"Anthropic, is that money that people"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":466.566,"endTime":470.536,"body":"are reserving to put into those deals"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":470.57,"endTime":472.205,"body":"rather than investing in biotech?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":472.205,"endTime":476.576,"body":"And I think the argument there is"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":472.205,"endTime":476.576,"body":"that so much of the biotech sector"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":476.576,"endTime":480.546,"body":"right now is funded by specialist"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":476.576,"endTime":480.546,"body":"money, that that's money that wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":480.58,"endTime":484.817,"body":"otherwise be, you know-- It's not"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":480.58,"endTime":484.817,"body":"like you have a biotech hedge fund"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":484.817,"endTime":486.719,"body":"that's gonna go put money into SpaceX."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":486.719,"endTime":491.691,"body":"And so in that sense, there isn't the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":486.719,"endTime":491.691,"body":"same impact on biotech there as it would."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":492.158,"endTime":495.194,"body":"But if we're talking about a, a"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":492.158,"endTime":495.194,"body":"bursting of a bubble, I think there"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":495.194,"endTime":498.831,"body":"definitely could be, could be issues"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":495.194,"endTime":498.831,"body":"there because you could have you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":498.831,"endTime":503.069,"body":"can have a specialist fund, but a"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":498.831,"endTime":503.069,"body":"lot of them have generalist LPs."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":503.302,"endTime":508.374,"body":"And so if they're losing money on tech"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":503.302,"endTime":508.374,"body":"or AI, they may have to do a capital"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":508.374,"endTime":512.879,"body":"call on some of their GP commitments,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":508.374,"endTime":512.879,"body":"and therefore, there could be withdrawals"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":512.879,"endTime":514.313,"body":"from, you know, specialist funds."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":514.313,"endTime":516.716,"body":"So it's not insulated in that sense."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":516.749,"endTime":518.551,"body":"And so I think that's where"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":516.749,"endTime":518.551,"body":"some of the concern lies."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":519.085,"endTime":519.352,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":519.719,"endTime":524.857,"body":"another thing you touched on, Stephen,"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":519.719,"endTime":524.857,"body":"were uh the launches you've been watching."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":525.157,"endTime":531.497,"body":"at the kickoff Financial Markets Preview"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":525.157,"endTime":531.497,"body":"that you wrote back in January, you had"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":531.497,"endTime":538.905,"body":"identified a group of 13 companies with"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":531.497,"endTime":538.905,"body":"launches that well could push those"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":539.071,"endTime":542.074,"body":"companies into higher market cap tiers."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":542.341,"endTime":544.677,"body":"what's happening with those launches?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":545.511,"endTime":545.811,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":545.845,"endTime":548.748,"body":"Yeah, I mean, so I, I, I thought it would"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":545.845,"endTime":548.748,"body":"be good to look back at these ones just"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":548.748,"endTime":553.019,"body":"because, you know, my conversations,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":548.748,"endTime":553.019,"body":"I was also asking the question, well,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":553.019,"endTime":557.256,"body":"what if everyone is saying that M\u0026A is"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":553.019,"endTime":557.256,"body":"gonna continue, but what if it doesn't?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":558.257,"endTime":562.595,"body":"You know, what happens to biotech"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":558.257,"endTime":562.595,"body":"if that M\u0026A run, sort of lags off"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":562.595,"endTime":565.298,"body":"or doesn't, doesn't continue the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":562.595,"endTime":565.298,"body":"same momentum carrying it forward."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":565.665,"endTime":568.634,"body":"And, you know, a couple of people brought"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":565.665,"endTime":568.634,"body":"up, well, you know, we, we have these"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":568.634,"endTime":571.604,"body":"commercial launches that are coming and,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":568.634,"endTime":571.604,"body":"you know, these could be very exciting"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":571.604,"endTime":573.105,"body":"companies for people to come into."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":574.006,"endTime":576.409,"body":"But looking, you know, at least"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":574.006,"endTime":576.409,"body":"through the, the performance in the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":576.442,"endTime":579.946,"body":"first half of the year, while the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":576.442,"endTime":579.946,"body":"launches themselves, the numbers look"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":579.979,"endTime":583.783,"body":"pretty good and are, are continuing"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":579.979,"endTime":583.783,"body":"to do well, the share performance"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":583.783,"endTime":587.687,"body":"for these companies sort of doesn't"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":583.783,"endTime":587.687,"body":"seem to kind of match what you might"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":587.687,"endTime":589.689,"body":"expect from, you know, a good launch."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":589.689,"endTime":592.191,"body":"There are several companies that are down."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":592.191,"endTime":595.494,"body":"Now, of course, in some cases,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":592.191,"endTime":595.494,"body":"it's more than just the launch."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":595.528,"endTime":598.631,"body":"Like for instance, Insmed was down"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":595.528,"endTime":598.631,"body":"thirty-eight percent sort of through"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":598.631,"endTime":602.768,"body":"the first half of the year, but a lot"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":598.631,"endTime":602.768,"body":"of that was on sort of pulling back"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":602.868,"endTime":607.34,"body":"because of a clinical setback they had"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":602.868,"endTime":607.34,"body":"that maybe, made people feel like their"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":607.34,"endTime":612.912,"body":"um brinsupri wouldn't have as wide of an"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":607.34,"endTime":612.912,"body":"opportunity as a product in a pipeline"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":612.912,"endTime":614.48,"body":"as people maybe originally thought."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":615.081,"endTime":618.15,"body":"Um, but there are several others"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":615.081,"endTime":618.15,"body":"that have had really good launches,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":618.15,"endTime":620.62,"body":"at least by the numbers, that are,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":618.15,"endTime":620.62,"body":"you know, flat through the year."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":620.62,"endTime":626.158,"body":"So it just seems like investors maybe"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":620.62,"endTime":626.158,"body":"are either have overinflated expectations"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":626.359,"endTime":629.061,"body":"for these launches and they're just"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":626.359,"endTime":629.061,"body":"not matching those overinflated"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":629.128,"endTime":633.466,"body":"expectations, or you know, they're"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":629.128,"endTime":633.466,"body":"just not buying into them just yet."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":633.833,"endTime":634.834,"body":"w-we'll keep following these."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":634.834,"endTime":637.837,"body":"I think, you know, they're all good"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":634.834,"endTime":637.837,"body":"companies that have good opportunities,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":637.87,"endTime":641.073,"body":"but just seems like as of yet, they're"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":637.87,"endTime":641.073,"body":"not sort of catching fire in the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":641.073,"endTime":643.542,"body":"way that maybe people at the start"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":641.073,"endTime":643.542,"body":"of the year thought they might be"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":644.043,"endTime":644.543,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":644.543,"endTime":650.95,"body":"Well, you can check out Stephen's 3Q"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":644.543,"endTime":650.95,"body":"Public Markets preview on biocentury.com."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":650.95,"endTime":653.586,"body":"There'll be a link in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":654.12,"endTime":656.489,"body":"Burnham's Britain, Simone."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":656.789,"endTime":661.961,"body":"new man moving into 10 Downing"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":656.789,"endTime":661.961,"body":"Street, does he get to keep the cat?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":661.961,"endTime":664.63,"body":"Isn't there, like, a cat"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":661.961,"endTime":664.63,"body":"at 10 Downing Street?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":665.264,"endTime":665.564,"body":"Like"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":665.665,"endTime":666.699,"body":"Cat 11."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":666.732,"endTime":668.834,"body":"Isn't it at number 11, Stephen?"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":669.301,"endTime":670.102,"body":"The Chancellor's, uh"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":670.469,"endTime":673.005,"body":"Have there been--"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":670.469,"endTime":673.005,"body":"Are we on… It's still Larry, right?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":673.172,"endTime":673.539,"body":"Isn't it still"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":673.873,"endTime":674.073,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":674.073,"endTime":675.408,"body":"Oh, no, maybe it is number 10."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":675.508,"endTime":676.108,"body":"Maybe you're right"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":676.175,"endTime":679.045,"body":"cat's been doing better"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":676.175,"endTime":679.045,"body":"than all these prime ministers that"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":679.045,"endTime":681.18,"body":"have been kind of rolling, rolling"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":682.114,"endTime":682.515,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":682.848,"endTime":684.183,"body":"whatever's"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":682.848,"endTime":684.183,"body":"happening with Larry."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":684.183,"endTime":689.555,"body":"But, but Burnham uh what do you"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":684.183,"endTime":689.555,"body":"expect out of  what his uh impact"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":689.555,"endTime":691.19,"body":"on life sciences might be, Simone?"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":691.791,"endTime":692.324,"body":"Thanks, Jeff."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":692.358,"endTime":697.029,"body":"So I talked to a few people, a bunch of"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":692.358,"endTime":697.029,"body":"people in the UK the last week or so."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":697.096,"endTime":701.4,"body":"And, first of all, I think we"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":697.096,"endTime":701.4,"body":"have to stipulate Burnham has"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":701.4,"endTime":705.604,"body":"said very, very little, right, in"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":701.4,"endTime":705.604,"body":"terms of his specific policies."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":705.638,"endTime":710.042,"body":"So there's not a lot to go"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":705.638,"endTime":710.042,"body":"on based on what he said he"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":710.042,"endTime":711.977,"body":"would do as Prime Minister."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":712.611,"endTime":717.95,"body":"What there is to go on is the precedent"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":712.611,"endTime":717.95,"body":"and what he's done in Manchester."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":718.35,"endTime":722.188,"body":"When I talk to people, it segregates"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":718.35,"endTime":722.188,"body":"into a few very discrete questions."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":722.288,"endTime":727.326,"body":"So the biggest thing for our sector,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":722.288,"endTime":727.326,"body":"for any sector, for the whole"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":727.326,"endTime":731.497,"body":"country, is who he selects to be"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":727.326,"endTime":731.497,"body":"Chancellor of the Exchequer, right?"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":731.53,"endTime":737.47,"body":"That's the economic policy, the financial"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":731.53,"endTime":737.47,"body":"policy, and, there is this feeling"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":737.47,"endTime":742.608,"body":"that if it's Ed Miliband who skews"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":737.47,"endTime":742.608,"body":"quite left for people in our sector,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":742.975,"endTime":744.577,"body":"not really that that's the issue."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":744.61,"endTime":748.881,"body":"It's that he's very much focused on the"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":744.61,"endTime":748.881,"body":"green economy and net zero, and there"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":748.881,"endTime":753.219,"body":"is the idea that attention would go"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":748.881,"endTime":753.219,"body":"away from life sciences towards that."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":753.686,"endTime":757.089,"body":"Most of the other candidates for"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":753.686,"endTime":757.089,"body":"chancellor, people were not particularly"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":757.089,"endTime":758.724,"body":"up in arms with one way or another."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":759.091,"endTime":763.062,"body":"As with any new administration, what"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":759.091,"endTime":763.062,"body":"are the tax policies going to be?"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":763.362,"endTime":768.667,"body":"This is where it kinda gets interesting"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":763.362,"endTime":768.667,"body":"because  there is somebody called Jim"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":768.701,"endTime":775.04,"body":"O'Neill who is supposedly advising"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":768.701,"endTime":775.04,"body":"Andy Burnham on economic policy."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":775.241,"endTime":781.08,"body":"He is a former Goldman guy, actually was"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":775.241,"endTime":781.08,"body":"uh secretary of the treasury, I think."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":781.313,"endTime":783.582,"body":"he calls himself, I"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":781.313,"endTime":783.582,"body":"think, cross-party lines."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":783.582,"endTime":787.119,"body":"I think he was uh uh, under a Tory"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":783.582,"endTime":787.119,"body":"administration when he was in government."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":787.453,"endTime":792.057,"body":"but he is seen very, very favorably by"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":787.453,"endTime":792.057,"body":"people as a, as a really g- balanced"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":792.057,"endTime":795.461,"body":"voice who understands the business"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":792.057,"endTime":795.461,"body":"needs, the business community."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":795.961,"endTime":800.599,"body":"So now going to the biotech specific"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":795.961,"endTime":800.599,"body":"things, well, here's what was interesting."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":800.599,"endTime":805.371,"body":"So the U.K., they always, as with all of"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":800.599,"endTime":805.371,"body":"Europe, their biggest concern is growth"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":805.371,"endTime":807.54,"body":"capital and the lack of growth capital."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":807.807,"endTime":812.845,"body":"U.K. is doing very well in terms of"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":807.807,"endTime":812.845,"body":"startups and innovation and so on,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":812.845,"endTime":818.217,"body":"but really growing big companies of"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":812.845,"endTime":818.217,"body":"the order of the Argenx or the Genmabs"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":818.217,"endTime":822.021,"body":"just hasn't happened in the U.K. It"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":818.217,"endTime":822.021,"body":"kind of segregates in two things."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":822.021,"endTime":825.491,"body":"On the one hand, the government"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":822.021,"endTime":825.491,"body":"advanced the British Business Bank,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":825.891,"endTime":828.527,"body":"and people speak very, very highly"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":825.891,"endTime":828.527,"body":"of the British Business Bank."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":828.794,"endTime":835.401,"body":"They invest in both funds and they"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":828.794,"endTime":835.401,"body":"invest in companies directly, and they've"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":835.401,"endTime":839.471,"body":"certainly enabled a lot of really good"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":835.401,"endTime":839.471,"body":"companies to get off the ground, people"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":839.471,"endTime":842.775,"body":"are sort of finding very good interactions"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":839.471,"endTime":842.775,"body":"with the British Business Bank."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":843.209,"endTime":845.077,"body":"So big plus in their column."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":845.578,"endTime":852.251,"body":"Big minus, however, in the Mansion House"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":845.578,"endTime":852.251,"body":"Compact, which was this agreement with"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":852.318,"endTime":857.156,"body":"pension funds that was supposed to unlock"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":852.318,"endTime":857.156,"body":"a whole lot of pension capital, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":857.156,"endTime":860.893,"body":"just getting a lot of thumbs down when"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":857.156,"endTime":860.893,"body":"I talk to people on Zoom about that."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":860.893,"endTime":863.896,"body":"Like, literally they're sitting"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":860.893,"endTime":863.896,"body":"there with their thumbs down, right?"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":863.929,"endTime":866.932,"body":"And so that has just not panned out."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":867.199,"endTime":871.47,"body":"There is uh an individual, Andy"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":867.199,"endTime":871.47,"body":"Haldane, who is also supposedly in,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":871.47,"endTime":876.075,"body":"in Burnham's inner circle, and he's"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":871.47,"endTime":876.075,"body":"very big on unlocking pension funds."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":876.108,"endTime":879.578,"body":"So we'll see what happens"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":876.108,"endTime":879.578,"body":"there, and that's sort of a"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":879.578,"endTime":880.98,"body":"drumbeat we see also in Europe."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":881.313,"endTime":883.082,"body":"And then the biggest thing"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":881.313,"endTime":883.082,"body":"that people have probably heard"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":883.082,"endTime":885.017,"body":"about is Manchesterism, right?"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":885.05,"endTime":888.821,"body":"And so there is this idea of"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":885.05,"endTime":888.821,"body":"devolution is the word, but it's sort"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":888.821,"endTime":894.36,"body":"of decentralization so that it's not"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":888.821,"endTime":894.36,"body":"all only about the capital London."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":894.793,"endTime":899.131,"body":"And there people are like, \"Well,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":894.793,"endTime":899.131,"body":"don't, I don't wanna be made to have"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":899.131,"endTime":901.533,"body":"to start companies all over the U.K."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":901.8,"endTime":905.638,"body":"because there isn't an infrastructure,\""},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":901.8,"endTime":905.638,"body":"and that's just not really something"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":905.704,"endTime":909.308,"body":"investors are excited about. But then"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":905.704,"endTime":909.308,"body":"they say, \"But if what you're talking"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":909.308,"endTime":913.479,"body":"about is getting more out of the"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":909.308,"endTime":913.479,"body":"regional universities, then that's"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":913.479,"endTime":918.083,"body":"interesting to me, and running clinical"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":913.479,"endTime":918.083,"body":"trials everywhere and boosting areas"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":918.083,"endTime":922.221,"body":"that can do manufacturing and creating"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":918.083,"endTime":922.221,"body":"different centers of excellence."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":922.588,"endTime":926.025,"body":"It's the ecosystem that could be"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":922.588,"endTime":926.025,"body":"interesting.\" So Stephen, I don't know"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":926.025,"endTime":930.829,"body":"if you've got thoughts on that, but"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":926.025,"endTime":930.829,"body":"net-net I would say there's a sort of"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":930.896,"endTime":935.701,"body":"cautious optimism certainly against,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":930.896,"endTime":935.701,"body":"you know, where they are right now"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":935.868,"endTime":937.436,"body":"as a country at least in our sector"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":937.937,"endTime":940.706,"body":"Yeah, no, I, I agree"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":937.937,"endTime":940.706,"body":"with a lot of that, and I guess the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":940.706,"endTime":944.043,"body":"only thing that I, and I think you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":940.706,"endTime":944.043,"body":"know this because I told you when you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":944.043,"endTime":946.178,"body":"were writing this piece, I pushed back."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":946.245,"endTime":951.65,"body":"I, I, I'm, I'm a little skeptical of"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":946.245,"endTime":951.65,"body":"people's being so negative on the Mansion"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":951.65,"endTime":955.688,"body":"House Compact, not in the sense that"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":951.65,"endTime":955.688,"body":"I agree nothing's really happened yet."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":956.088,"endTime":959.391,"body":"I guess my expectation was that this"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":956.088,"endTime":959.391,"body":"is gonna be something that was gonna"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":959.391,"endTime":964.229,"body":"take quite a while to get moving and"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":959.391,"endTime":964.229,"body":"to get up and running because you have"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":964.229,"endTime":967.967,"body":"to change the mindset of an entire"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":964.229,"endTime":967.967,"body":"sector and how they operate, and I"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":967.967,"endTime":969.335,"body":"don't think that happens overnight."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":969.335,"endTime":973.539,"body":"I don't think it happens in three"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":969.335,"endTime":973.539,"body":"years, which is what it's been."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":973.539,"endTime":979.378,"body":"So I guess I'm not as down on that maybe"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":973.539,"endTime":979.378,"body":"as some other people are, but um maybe"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":979.378,"endTime":983.482,"body":"I'm trying to be a bit rose-colored"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":979.378,"endTime":983.482,"body":"in my glasses in terms of hoping that"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":983.482,"endTime":985.017,"body":"that will, that that will improve."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":985.15,"endTime":985.584,"body":"we'll see"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":985.884,"endTime":988.187,"body":"I mean, I think"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":985.884,"endTime":988.187,"body":"that, I, I hear you, Stephen, and"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":988.22,"endTime":991.657,"body":"we can, we'll probably go into this"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":988.22,"endTime":991.657,"body":"in more detail at some point soon."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":992.124,"endTime":997.863,"body":"I think that um the general feeling"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":992.124,"endTime":997.863,"body":"is this, is that life sciences"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":997.863,"endTime":999.999,"body":"will continue to be a pillar."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1000.265,"endTime":1004.169,"body":"I think we've seen from other regions"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1000.265,"endTime":1004.169,"body":"that, like look at China, right,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1004.203,"endTime":1009.908,"body":"industrial strategy makes a difference,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1004.203,"endTime":1009.908,"body":"and that retaining it, industrial strategy"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1009.975,"endTime":1011.977,"body":"and life sciences, will be important."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1012.611,"endTime":1015.347,"body":"That there are, I talk about these"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1012.611,"endTime":1015.347,"body":"three individuals, that there are"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1015.347,"endTime":1017.383,"body":"three players who are very important."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1017.449,"endTime":1021.387,"body":"Patrick Vallance, who's the Minister"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1017.449,"endTime":1021.387,"body":"for Science, Lawrence Tallon, CEO of"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1021.387,"endTime":1025.724,"body":"MHRA, and Steve Bates, in the Office"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1021.387,"endTime":1025.724,"body":"of Life Sciences in the government."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1026.091,"endTime":1031.864,"body":"And if those individuals stay, then"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1026.091,"endTime":1031.864,"body":"they have a lot of support from the"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1032.297,"endTime":1037.202,"body":"ecosystem in a way that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1032.297,"endTime":1037.202,"body":"people in the UK aren't always so"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1037.236,"endTime":1038.337,"body":"complimentary about each other."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1038.67,"endTime":1042.274,"body":"So, you know, if, if they um i- if"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1038.67,"endTime":1042.274,"body":"they continue, then I think there's"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1042.274,"endTime":1046.011,"body":"really a feeling that UK life sciences,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1042.274,"endTime":1046.011,"body":"I think what they're really trying"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1046.011,"endTime":1049.581,"body":"to do is to, what would you say,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1046.011,"endTime":1049.581,"body":"Stephen, be number three in the world?"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1049.915,"endTime":1053.419,"body":"you know, capitulate to the"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1049.915,"endTime":1053.419,"body":"US and China as one and two."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1053.585,"endTime":1057.322,"body":"Win the World Cup, but let's say, you"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1053.585,"endTime":1057.322,"body":"know, come in bronze, let's say uh"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1057.79,"endTime":1058.023,"body":"on the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1058.09,"endTime":1060.592,"body":"you, get on the--"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1058.09,"endTime":1060.592,"body":"I think they'd be per-per-perfectly"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1060.592,"endTime":1061.727,"body":"happy to be on the podium."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1061.76,"endTime":1062.061,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1062.227,"endTime":1063.996,"body":"On the"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1062.227,"endTime":1063.996,"body":"podium, podium position there."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1065.464,"endTime":1068.6,"body":"Well perhaps this"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1065.464,"endTime":1068.6,"body":"fellow will take after some of the"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1068.6,"endTime":1071.937,"body":"great bands that have come out of"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1068.6,"endTime":1071.937,"body":"Manchester over the years, Simone."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1072.304,"endTime":1074.406,"body":"Joy Division, The Smiths, The"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1074.473,"endTime":1077.009,"body":"I believe he"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1074.473,"endTime":1077.009,"body":"is… I, I think I'm not wrong in"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1077.009,"endTime":1078.61,"body":"saying that he's spoken about that."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1079.011,"endTime":1079.211,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1079.511,"endTime":1081.647,"body":"Yeah, this"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1079.511,"endTime":1081.647,"body":"is some legendary bands."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1081.647,"endTime":1084.716,"body":"Uh, I know there's some 1975."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1084.95,"endTime":1089.955,"body":"What surprised me about Manchester's"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1084.95,"endTime":1089.955,"body":"music scene, I kind of think about all"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1089.955,"endTime":1094.726,"body":"this alt rock that's come out of there,"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1089.955,"endTime":1094.726,"body":"but the Bee Gees, those great Bee Gees."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1095.027,"endTime":1095.727,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1096.095,"endTime":1100.466,"body":"I'm gonna have to fact-check myself, but"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1096.095,"endTime":1100.466,"body":"uh I'm pretty sure the Bee Gees roots."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1100.899,"endTime":1101.733,"body":"what can we say?"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1101.733,"endTime":1103.268,"body":"Saturday Night Fever, Stephen."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1103.602,"endTime":1108.54,"body":"All right, we'll take a quick break and"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1103.602,"endTime":1108.54,"body":"we'll be back to jump into the clinic"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1108.974,"endTime":1111.944,"body":"This episode of BioCentury"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1108.974,"endTime":1111.944,"body":"This Week is brought to you by the"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1111.944,"endTime":1116.482,"body":"13th China Healthcare Summit, taking"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1111.944,"endTime":1116.482,"body":"place November 2nd to 4th in Shanghai"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1118.183,"endTime":1121.72,"body":"Everyone has an opinion about China"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1118.183,"endTime":1121.72,"body":"biotech, but there's a difference"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1121.72,"endTime":1125.29,"body":"between reading about cross-border"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1121.72,"endTime":1125.29,"body":"deals and seeing it for yourself."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1125.858,"endTime":1129.294,"body":"The 13th China Healthcare Summit"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1125.858,"endTime":1129.294,"body":"brings you to Shanghai November"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1129.294,"endTime":1133.265,"body":"2nd to 4th for a firsthand look"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1129.294,"endTime":1133.265,"body":"at China's innovation moment."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1133.799,"endTime":1138.137,"body":"Join BioCentury, BayHelix, and"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1133.799,"endTime":1138.137,"body":"insights partner McKinsey \u0026 Company"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1138.337,"endTime":1143.142,"body":"for a deep dive into China's biopharma"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1138.337,"endTime":1143.142,"body":"ecosystem and meet the biotech leaders"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1143.142,"endTime":1144.977,"body":"who are driving all the newsflow."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1145.444,"endTime":1146.478,"body":"Sourcing innovation."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1146.645,"endTime":1147.713,"body":"Building NewCos."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1147.88,"endTime":1149.815,"body":"Generating faster clinical data."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1150.115,"endTime":1152.384,"body":"Reimagining your R\u0026D strategy."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1152.885,"endTime":1156.555,"body":"For a dozen years, the China Healthcare"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1152.885,"endTime":1156.555,"body":"Summit has gathered the right people"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1156.555,"endTime":1158.357,"body":"to network and build business."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1158.757,"endTime":1160.993,"body":"Now it's your chance to be in the room."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1161.426,"endTime":1163.228,"body":"Join us in Shanghai this November."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1163.462,"endTime":1167.599,"body":"Opt into the tour of Suzhou and a visit"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1163.462,"endTime":1167.599,"body":"to Shanghai clinical trial centers."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1167.966,"endTime":1169.234,"body":"See it for yourself."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1169.668,"endTime":1172.905,"body":"Register at biocenturychinasummit.com."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1176.208,"endTime":1180.479,"body":"We're back on the"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1176.208,"endTime":1180.479,"body":"BioCentury This Week podcast."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1180.512,"endTime":1186.418,"body":"Last week, data on Wainua"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1180.512,"endTime":1186.418,"body":"surprised investors, shaving"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1186.418,"endTime":1191.456,"body":"billions off the valuations of"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1186.418,"endTime":1191.456,"body":"Ionis and partner AstraZeneca."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1191.59,"endTime":1197.963,"body":"Wainua was being tested for"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1191.59,"endTime":1197.963,"body":"a much bigger indication than"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1197.996,"endTime":1200.098,"body":"uh what it is approved for."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1200.465,"endTime":1201.9,"body":"Lauren, you took a closer look."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1201.934,"endTime":1202.568,"body":"What did you learn?"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1203.368,"endTime":1203.969,"body":"Thanks, Jeff."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1204.036,"endTime":1208.44,"body":"yeah, so these Phase III results came"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1204.036,"endTime":1208.44,"body":"as I think a big shock, and that's"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1208.44,"endTime":1212.511,"body":"what the stock move would suggest to"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1208.44,"endTime":1212.511,"body":"anyone who was watching this indication."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1212.544,"endTime":1221.486,"body":"So I think the expectation was that in"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1212.544,"endTime":1221.486,"body":"this ATTR with cardiomyopathy indication."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1221.82,"endTime":1227.159,"body":"We've seen an siRNA from Alnylam"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1221.82,"endTime":1227.159,"body":"work well and get approved."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1227.559,"endTime":1232.698,"body":"These two programs had very similar,"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1227.559,"endTime":1232.698,"body":"you know, very comparable results in"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1232.764,"endTime":1236.068,"body":"the ATTR with polyneuropathy indication."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1236.535,"endTime":1240.706,"body":"I think there wasn't a lot of reason to"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1236.535,"endTime":1240.706,"body":"believe that this uh this cardiovascular"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1240.706,"endTime":1242.307,"body":"indication would be that much different."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1242.307,"endTime":1244.109,"body":"This is-- These are the same therapies."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1244.109,"endTime":1245.377,"body":"They work in the same way."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1245.444,"endTime":1247.679,"body":"It's just a different"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1245.444,"endTime":1247.679,"body":"presentation of disease."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1248.146,"endTime":1252.517,"body":"We saw  loss of over three billion"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1248.146,"endTime":1252.517,"body":"dollars in market cap for Ionis."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1252.551,"endTime":1254.886,"body":"Partner AstraZeneca"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1252.551,"endTime":1254.886,"body":"also fell on these data."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1255.153,"endTime":1256.622,"body":"It, it was a, a big shock."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1256.888,"endTime":1262.127,"body":"So we looked into, what caused this"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1256.888,"endTime":1262.127,"body":"failure, this unexpected failure."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1262.327,"endTime":1264.096,"body":"I don't think we can say for sure."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1264.129,"endTime":1269.901,"body":"I think Stephen has some thoughts on"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1264.129,"endTime":1269.901,"body":"um, if the modality might be to blame."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1270.302,"endTime":1274.806,"body":"But there are also some differences"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1270.302,"endTime":1274.806,"body":"i-in the Phase III trial uh in how"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1274.806,"endTime":1278.277,"body":"it was run, in what patients were"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1274.806,"endTime":1278.277,"body":"treated with at the same time."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1278.71,"endTime":1285.317,"body":"Both the antisense, which is this Ionis"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1278.71,"endTime":1285.317,"body":"program, and the siRNA work by sort"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1285.317,"endTime":1291.456,"body":"of targeting and degrading the mRNA"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1285.317,"endTime":1291.456,"body":"that accumulates in this disease, that"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1291.456,"endTime":1293.992,"body":"creates these proteins that form fibrils."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1294.359,"endTime":1297.763,"body":"And so they prevent the fibrils"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1294.359,"endTime":1297.763,"body":"from forming in the first place."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1298.13,"endTime":1301.133,"body":"There's another mechanism to"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1298.13,"endTime":1301.133,"body":"treat these diseases, which is"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1301.133,"endTime":1306.104,"body":"a small molecule stabilizer, so"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1301.133,"endTime":1306.104,"body":"these two are often used together."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1306.438,"endTime":1311.61,"body":"In this Phase III trial, almost all of"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1306.438,"endTime":1311.61,"body":"the patients, over eighty percent, used"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1311.61,"endTime":1315.347,"body":"a stabilizer at some point during--"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1311.61,"endTime":1315.347,"body":"like, throughout the course of the trial."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1315.647,"endTime":1318.717,"body":"That percentage was lower, just"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1315.647,"endTime":1318.717,"body":"a little bit over fifty percent"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1318.85,"endTime":1321.687,"body":"for the Alnylam Amvuttra trial."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1322.02,"endTime":1326.291,"body":"That alone can sort of change the"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1322.02,"endTime":1326.291,"body":"bar for how effective you have to"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1326.291,"endTime":1329.594,"body":"be over this baseline therapy that"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1326.291,"endTime":1329.594,"body":"you're having in the first place."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1330.095,"endTime":1335.5,"body":"There's also the fact that when Alnylam's"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1330.095,"endTime":1335.5,"body":"trial was run, that was a couple years"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1335.567,"endTime":1340.572,"body":"earlier when it was started, and there was"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1335.567,"endTime":1340.572,"body":"only one real stabilizer that was used."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1340.605,"endTime":1346.712,"body":"That was the tafamidis, and"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1340.605,"endTime":1346.712,"body":"now we have another stabilizer"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1346.745,"endTime":1351.383,"body":"BridgeBio which could have also"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1346.745,"endTime":1351.383,"body":"been used in uh in the Ionis trial."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1351.683,"endTime":1354.786,"body":"So, you know, there's--"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1351.683,"endTime":1354.786,"body":"maybe it's the modality."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1355.053,"endTime":1359.725,"body":"Maybe it's the fact that patients"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1355.053,"endTime":1359.725,"body":"were also getting another therapy"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1359.725,"endTime":1361.426,"body":"during this Phase III study."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1361.827,"endTime":1366.465,"body":"But overall, yeah, this was, this was a"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1361.827,"endTime":1366.465,"body":"surprise, and not great news for Ionis"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1367.499,"endTime":1370.235,"body":"Yeah, and I, I think"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1367.499,"endTime":1370.235,"body":"everything you said there is,  absolutely"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1370.235,"endTime":1373.638,"body":"worth, you know, looking into and why"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1370.235,"endTime":1373.638,"body":"sort of, um-- So I wrote a piece that"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1373.705,"endTime":1378.009,"body":"uh I think, you know, like you rightly"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1373.705,"endTime":1378.009,"body":"point out, that this is potentially not an"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1378.009,"endTime":1381.279,"body":"sort of apples to apples type comparison"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1378.009,"endTime":1381.279,"body":"because of all those differences"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1381.279,"endTime":1383.982,"body":"between the, the study uh trials."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1384.416,"endTime":1388.553,"body":"But it did just sort of spark for me, I"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1384.416,"endTime":1388.553,"body":"guess, maybe a bit of a hot take uh in"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1388.553,"endTime":1392.023,"body":"that I think this is the third instance"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1388.553,"endTime":1392.023,"body":"that, you know, I could find in which"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1392.023,"endTime":1398.563,"body":"we had an ASO essentially and a, and an"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1392.023,"endTime":1398.563,"body":"siRNA being developed into Phase III or"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1398.563,"endTime":1401.333,"body":"being approved in the same indication."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1401.366,"endTime":1404.636,"body":"And at least in my mind, in each of"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1401.366,"endTime":1404.636,"body":"those instances, if you look at sort"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1404.636,"endTime":1408.473,"body":"of the, the overall product profile,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1404.636,"endTime":1408.473,"body":"so looking at efficacy, safety"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1408.673,"endTime":1413.512,"body":"convenience, you know, dosing, delivery,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1408.673,"endTime":1413.512,"body":"frequency of dosing, I just came to"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1413.512,"endTime":1417.449,"body":"the conclusion that it seems like"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1413.512,"endTime":1417.449,"body":"every time the siRNA comes out on top."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1417.616,"endTime":1421.086,"body":"And so I just wondered, you know, can"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1417.616,"endTime":1421.086,"body":"we not just… You know, it's been what,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1421.086,"endTime":1424.723,"body":"twenty years where these have kind of"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1421.086,"endTime":1424.723,"body":"been developed in, in, in parallel or so?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1425.09,"endTime":1429.528,"body":"It just seems like, can we not just"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1425.09,"endTime":1429.528,"body":"say now that when you have to pick"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1429.528,"endTime":1433.732,"body":"between ASO and an siRNA in a certain"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1429.528,"endTime":1433.732,"body":"setting, maybe the siRNA is just better."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1434.166,"endTime":1435.233,"body":"So, let's"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1434.166,"endTime":1435.233,"body":"dig into that a little bit."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1435.233,"endTime":1438.27,"body":"So first of all, you know, in your"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1435.233,"endTime":1438.27,"body":"piece, which you put very nicely, you"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1438.27,"endTime":1442.107,"body":"did stipulate to, I think a- another"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1438.27,"endTime":1442.107,"body":"piece of information that will come"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1442.107,"endTime":1447.279,"body":"out later this year comparing an"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1442.107,"endTime":1447.279,"body":"RNAi with, uh … and just to make"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1447.279,"endTime":1449.414,"body":"clear, ASO is an antisense oligo."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1449.815,"endTime":1454.686,"body":"so, you know, Stephen and Lauren maybe"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1449.815,"endTime":1454.686,"body":"weigh into this, that, you know, if"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1454.686,"endTime":1460.225,"body":"you're comparing RNAi and antisense,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1454.686,"endTime":1460.225,"body":"the issues that you've talked about,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1460.258,"endTime":1464.996,"body":"Stephen, often relate, seem to relate"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1460.258,"endTime":1464.996,"body":"to, let's say, frequency of dosing."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1464.996,"endTime":1468.667,"body":"You … What you're saying is"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1464.996,"endTime":1468.667,"body":"that they actually have a similar"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1468.667,"endTime":1471.136,"body":"degree of knockdown, right?"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1471.369,"endTime":1476.942,"body":"But it is the … And Lauren is, like,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1471.369,"endTime":1476.942,"body":"like making a \"I don't know about that\""},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1476.942,"endTime":1479.644,"body":"with her head, so we'll come back,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1476.942,"endTime":1479.644,"body":"we'll come to, to Lauren in a minute."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1479.845,"endTime":1483.482,"body":"But, you know, there's the question"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1479.845,"endTime":1483.482,"body":"of knockdown, and then there is the"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1483.482,"endTime":1486.151,"body":"question of them as a therapeutic,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1483.482,"endTime":1486.151,"body":"which involves a whole lot more."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1486.151,"endTime":1488.687,"body":"It involves the PK, the PK/PD and so on."},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1489.12,"endTime":1492.357,"body":"And so I'm sort of … What I'm, I think"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1489.12,"endTime":1492.357,"body":"I'm trying to get at, a- and Lauren, you"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1492.357,"endTime":1496.728,"body":"might want to weigh in on this given your"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1492.357,"endTime":1496.728,"body":"expression, is, like, are they similarly,"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1497.128,"endTime":1501.766,"body":"biologically, sort of at a molecular"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1497.128,"endTime":1501.766,"body":"level, efficient at doing their job?"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1501.766,"endTime":1506.371,"body":"Is there something intrinsic about"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1501.766,"endTime":1506.371,"body":"RNAi that would make it uh better"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1506.404,"endTime":1513.545,"body":"at knockdown, or is it really about"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1506.404,"endTime":1513.545,"body":"the formulation, the delivery, the"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1513.645,"endTime":1517.849,"body":"other properties of the molecule that"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1513.645,"endTime":1517.849,"body":"turn it into a better therapeutic?"},{"speaker":"Simone Fishburn","startTime":1517.916,"endTime":1518.85,"body":"Any thoughts on that?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1519.551,"endTime":1521.419,"body":"I will admit, I"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1519.551,"endTime":1521.419,"body":"have not off the top of my head gone"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1521.419,"endTime":1525.423,"body":"through every data set for each of"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1521.419,"endTime":1525.423,"body":"these modalities, and I don't have"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1525.423,"endTime":1526.992,"body":"it firmly to grasp top of mind."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1527.025,"endTime":1527.292,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1527.726,"endTime":1531.796,"body":"the sense I have, the sense I have"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1527.726,"endTime":1531.796,"body":"is that they both can, in certain"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1531.796,"endTime":1536.701,"body":"settings, they both can have very, you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1531.796,"endTime":1536.701,"body":"know, very high knockdown on things."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1536.935,"endTime":1540.305,"body":"but the feeling I have is that with"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1536.935,"endTime":1540.305,"body":"an siRNA, what you typically get is"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1540.305,"endTime":1546.011,"body":"you typically get once quarterly or"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1540.305,"endTime":1546.011,"body":"longer dosing  with those molecules."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1546.411,"endTime":1549.648,"body":"In some instances, there"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1546.411,"endTime":1549.648,"body":"are cleaner AE profiles."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1549.681,"endTime":1554.252,"body":"Uh, you know, liver tox, I think has been"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1549.681,"endTime":1554.252,"body":"a bit more of an issue for antisense over"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1554.252,"endTime":1559.224,"body":"the years than-- Obviously, there have"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1554.252,"endTime":1559.224,"body":"been instances in which siRNAs have run"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1559.224,"endTime":1564.429,"body":"into the liver tox as well, but i-it's"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1559.224,"endTime":1564.429,"body":"come up more on, on, on labels that I've"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1564.429,"endTime":1566.598,"body":"looked at for antisense than siRNAs."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1566.798,"endTime":1570.335,"body":"and then the other thing I just, you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1566.798,"endTime":1570.335,"body":"know, looked at was just patients"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1570.368,"endTime":1574.172,"body":"maybe voting with their dollars in the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1570.368,"endTime":1574.172,"body":"sense that, when you compare some of"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1574.172,"endTime":1579.044,"body":"the sales figures for some of these"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1574.172,"endTime":1579.044,"body":"settings, the siRNAs have done better."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1579.311,"endTime":1582.781,"body":"And obviously, there's more that"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1579.311,"endTime":1582.781,"body":"goes into sales potentially than"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1582.781,"endTime":1584.583,"body":"just the quality of the molecule."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1584.583,"endTime":1589.054,"body":"But you know, I think that's another"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1584.583,"endTime":1589.054,"body":"sort of tick uh i-in favor of that."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1589.12,"endTime":1592.157,"body":"But I don't know, Lauren, if you have"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1589.12,"endTime":1592.157,"body":"anything more specific on the, the"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1592.157,"endTime":1593.758,"body":"mechanisms that you wanted to talk about"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1594.459,"endTime":1594.893,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1594.926,"endTime":1600.865,"body":"So we have seen in a couple of specific"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1594.926,"endTime":1600.865,"body":"settings that, you know, a higher level"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1600.865,"endTime":1603.301,"body":"of knockdown w-with the siRNA approaches."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1603.301,"endTime":1606.004,"body":"This isn't true in every"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1603.301,"endTime":1606.004,"body":"i-indication, as you mentioned."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1606.271,"endTime":1609.24,"body":"These are fundamentally different"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1606.271,"endTime":1609.24,"body":"in how they're structured"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1609.24,"endTime":1610.442,"body":"and how they're delivered."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1610.809,"endTime":1616.915,"body":"and overall, the siRNA approach is kind"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1610.809,"endTime":1616.915,"body":"of more stable, and it can act longer,"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1616.915,"endTime":1618.583,"body":"and it doesn't get used up, and it's…"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1618.85,"endTime":1621.052,"body":"So there are differences"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1618.85,"endTime":1621.052,"body":"with how it works."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1621.286,"endTime":1624.456,"body":"I mean, there are definitely"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1621.286,"endTime":1624.456,"body":"trade-offs, so it's more complex"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1624.456,"endTime":1626.491,"body":"to deliver an siRNA, for example."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1626.491,"endTime":1631.296,"body":"You know, you need a delivery vehicle that"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1626.491,"endTime":1631.296,"body":"you don't necessarily need with antisense."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1631.296,"endTime":1635.5,"body":"So overall, I think the knockdown"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1631.296,"endTime":1635.5,"body":"efficiency is pretty comparable."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1635.734,"endTime":1640.505,"body":"I think there are still, at this"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1635.734,"endTime":1640.505,"body":"time, cases where, you know, there"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1640.605,"endTime":1642.774,"body":"is a use case for an antisense oligo."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1643.108,"endTime":1646.811,"body":"You know, there are those N of one"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1643.108,"endTime":1646.811,"body":"approaches, where it's simpler to,"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1646.811,"endTime":1650.949,"body":"like, create this um the chemistry"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1646.811,"endTime":1650.949,"body":"that's needed to create one of these."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1651.416,"endTime":1655.92,"body":"But again, the delivery of"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1651.416,"endTime":1655.92,"body":"siRNA, it's really advancing."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1656.221,"endTime":1659.624,"body":"Um, I think that a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1656.221,"endTime":1659.624,"body":"work that went in this… I agree"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1659.624,"endTime":1660.825,"body":"with everything you said, Stephen."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1660.892,"endTime":1664.729,"body":"This doesn't go against your points, but"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1660.892,"endTime":1664.729,"body":"I think that antisense is really important"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1664.729,"endTime":1668.833,"body":"because I think a lot of the work that"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1664.729,"endTime":1668.833,"body":"went into optimizing the RNA chemistry to"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1668.833,"endTime":1673.004,"body":"create the antisense therapies has helped"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1668.833,"endTime":1673.004,"body":"advance siRNA to the point it is today."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1673.304,"endTime":1676.641,"body":"So I think it's kind of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1673.304,"endTime":1676.641,"body":"it's a trade-off between a little"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1676.641,"endTime":1680.779,"body":"bit more complexity, and I think the"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1676.641,"endTime":1680.779,"body":"longer activity is, is definitely"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1680.812,"endTime":1686.718,"body":"more of what patients want versus"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1680.812,"endTime":1686.718,"body":"the maybe slightly more knockdown."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1686.918,"endTime":1689.254,"body":"Well, and there's, and"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1686.918,"endTime":1689.254,"body":"there's also, I think the other thing is"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1689.32,"endTime":1693.491,"body":"there are, there are instances in which"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1689.32,"endTime":1693.491,"body":"antisense is effective where I don't…"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1693.792,"endTime":1696.795,"body":"And someone can write in and tell me"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1693.792,"endTime":1696.795,"body":"if I've got this wrong, but where you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1696.795,"endTime":1700.131,"body":"can't use an siRNA, I think that's like"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1696.795,"endTime":1700.131,"body":"if you're targeting splice variants,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1700.331,"endTime":1703.468,"body":"those sorts of things, I think that's"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1700.331,"endTime":1703.468,"body":"where you-- the antisense approach can"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1703.468,"endTime":1705.537,"body":"work where you wouldn't use an siRNA."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1705.537,"endTime":1710.842,"body":"So obviously the bas- biggest example"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1705.537,"endTime":1710.842,"body":"being SMA and that's obviously been uh you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1710.842,"endTime":1716.414,"body":"know Spinraza uh there has been incredibly"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1710.842,"endTime":1716.414,"body":"important for, for SMA patients."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1716.414,"endTime":1720.218,"body":"And so, you know, this isn't uh you"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1716.414,"endTime":1720.218,"body":"know, what I wrote was not meant to be"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1720.218,"endTime":1722.52,"body":"a an all-around bashing of, of ASOs."},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1722.987,"endTime":1725.99,"body":"You know, I think there are definitely"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1722.987,"endTime":1725.99,"body":"plenty of instances in which they're"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1725.99,"endTime":1730.161,"body":"very useful medicines, but more"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1725.99,"endTime":1730.161,"body":"of just a maybe a buildup of, of"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1730.161,"endTime":1734.099,"body":"observations over time that I just"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1730.161,"endTime":1734.099,"body":"thought maybe we needed to you know,"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1734.265,"endTime":1737.368,"body":"can we, can we finally draw a conclusion"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1734.265,"endTime":1737.368,"body":"here in, in, in this comparison?"},{"speaker":"Stephen Hansen","startTime":1737.435,"endTime":1737.669,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1738.803,"endTime":1740.572,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1738.803,"endTime":1740.572,"body":"fair, and it's right, Stephen."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1740.705,"endTime":1745.176,"body":"The splicing is kind of a different"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1740.705,"endTime":1745.176,"body":"chemistry for antisense, and that's not a"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1745.176,"endTime":1747.679,"body":"place where siRNA is gonna go anytime soon"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1749.147,"endTime":1749.881,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1750.148,"endTime":1755.253,"body":"well, we have a little bit of time"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1750.148,"endTime":1755.253,"body":"left, and I did wanna dig into Takeda."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1755.754,"endTime":1761.626,"body":"Lauren uh you've been following this"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1755.754,"endTime":1761.626,"body":"program for some time, and you had"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1761.626,"endTime":1768.9,"body":"the chance to sit down with Takeda's"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1761.626,"endTime":1768.9,"body":"Orexen team, and it's been a journey."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1769.2,"endTime":1773.671,"body":"There's been some uh setbacks but they"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1769.2,"endTime":1773.671,"body":"seem to have learned each step of the way."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1773.872,"endTime":1774.506,"body":"what did you learn?"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1775.006,"endTime":1775.273,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1775.273,"endTime":1775.74,"body":"Thanks, Jeff."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1775.74,"endTime":1780.245,"body":"So we've talked about the orexin program"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1775.74,"endTime":1780.245,"body":"on this podcast quite a few times because"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1780.545,"endTime":1783.548,"body":"it's a really hot target at this time."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1783.848,"endTime":1791.289,"body":"I think the fact that we went from not"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1783.848,"endTime":1791.289,"body":"a lot of innovation in narcolepsy to at"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1791.289,"endTime":1796.561,"body":"least three late-stage clinical companies"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1791.289,"endTime":1796.561,"body":"targeting the biology that gets very"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1796.561,"endTime":1802.433,"body":"close to the causal mechanism of Type 1"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1796.561,"endTime":1802.433,"body":"narcolepsy i- is just really exciting."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1802.467,"endTime":1808.373,"body":"And so Takeda's program we should hear"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1802.467,"endTime":1808.373,"body":"about the FDA decision in the coming"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1808.373,"endTime":1812.577,"body":"months, I think, and it was a good"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1808.373,"endTime":1812.577,"body":"time to look back at sort of what it's"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1812.577,"endTime":1815.647,"body":"taken to get here because of how much"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1812.577,"endTime":1815.647,"body":"excitement there is around the program."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1816.047,"endTime":1819.584,"body":"And so Takeda was kind of the"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1816.047,"endTime":1819.584,"body":"pioneer in this from the beginning."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1819.784,"endTime":1824.389,"body":"They worked with some of the academic"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1819.784,"endTime":1824.389,"body":"groups who discovered the fact that"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1824.622,"endTime":1829.427,"body":"loss of orexin producing neurons"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1824.622,"endTime":1829.427,"body":"contributes to narcolepsy Type 1."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1829.794,"endTime":1832.764,"body":"I talked with the company, with"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1829.794,"endTime":1832.764,"body":"several different people who've invol-"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1832.797,"endTime":1836.234,"body":"been involved in their development"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1832.797,"endTime":1836.234,"body":"programs over the last 15 years"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1836.501,"endTime":1837.836,"body":"about what it took to get here."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1838.069,"endTime":1843.875,"body":"So Takeda started with an IV"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1838.069,"endTime":1843.875,"body":"orexin to receptor agonist,"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1844.042,"endTime":1845.243,"body":"which worked really well."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1845.51,"endTime":1852.75,"body":"but with targeting the orexin biology,"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1845.51,"endTime":1852.75,"body":"you really need to optimize the PK"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1852.984,"endTime":1856.988,"body":"to try to mimic what happens with"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1852.984,"endTime":1856.988,"body":"orexin signaling throughout the day."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1856.988,"endTime":1861.626,"body":"You know, it rises, and you wake up,"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1856.988,"endTime":1861.626,"body":"and it falls when you fall asleep."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1862.093,"endTime":1866.764,"body":"So this wasn't a case where you could have"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1862.093,"endTime":1866.764,"body":"an IV therapy that patients are gonna have"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1866.764,"endTime":1868.967,"body":"to dose once or twice a day, you know?"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1869.4,"endTime":1875.039,"body":"So the next step was working to develop"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1869.4,"endTime":1875.039,"body":"a small molecule, and they talked"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1875.039,"endTime":1878.343,"body":"a, a bit about all of the challenges"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1875.039,"endTime":1878.343,"body":"that went into designing a small"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1878.343,"endTime":1883.014,"body":"molecule that acts as an agonist, that"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1878.343,"endTime":1883.014,"body":"crosses the blood-brain barrier, and"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1883.014,"endTime":1885.817,"body":"that is stable once it gets there."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1885.85,"endTime":1887.986,"body":"You know, the first attempts"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1885.85,"endTime":1887.986,"body":"were not successful."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1888.286,"endTime":1890.221,"body":"the molecule wasn't as stable as hoped."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1890.622,"endTime":1895.793,"body":"There was a toxicity signal, and"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1890.622,"endTime":1895.793,"body":"that's what ultimately led to"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1896.06,"endTime":1897.395,"body":"the discovery of  oveporexton."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1898.63,"endTime":1901.532,"body":"Something that I found interesting"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1898.63,"endTime":1901.532,"body":"about this program is I think one of"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1901.532,"endTime":1905.336,"body":"the reasons that it was so successful"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1901.532,"endTime":1905.336,"body":"and that Takeda's out ahead of some of"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1905.336,"endTime":1909.741,"body":"its competitors at this time, is that"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1905.336,"endTime":1909.741,"body":"the pharma fully invested in this."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1909.741,"endTime":1914.479,"body":"So, you know, when it had a Phase II miss"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1909.741,"endTime":1914.479,"body":"for that toxicity signal, they already"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1914.479,"endTime":1919.25,"body":"had another candidate that was sort of"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1914.479,"endTime":1919.25,"body":"improving upon that one to begin with."},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1919.25,"endTime":1922.253,"body":"So that was already underway, and"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1919.25,"endTime":1922.253,"body":"I think that is an important lesson"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1922.353,"endTime":1925.223,"body":"for some of the people who are"},{"speaker":"Lauren Martz","startTime":1922.353,"endTime":1925.223,"body":"really committing to a new biology."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1925.757,"endTime":1926.157,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1926.157,"endTime":1927.492,"body":"Well, thanks for that, Lauren."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1927.492,"endTime":1931.396,"body":"Lauren's piece available"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1927.492,"endTime":1931.396,"body":"on biocentury.com."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1931.396,"endTime":1934.232,"body":"We'll drop a link in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1934.499,"endTime":1938.836,"body":"one thing I wanted to add, Lauren  you"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1934.499,"endTime":1938.836,"body":"had a quote from Sarah Sheikh of"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1938.836,"endTime":1941.306,"body":"Takeda, and I thought this was great."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1941.472,"endTime":1947.111,"body":"She said, \"I really think of this as the"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1941.472,"endTime":1947.111,"body":"GLP-1 moment for neuroscience because of"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1947.111,"endTime":1950.048,"body":"the breadth of this mechanism.\" We'll see."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1950.214,"endTime":1951.249,"body":"That's a big statement."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1951.549,"endTime":1952.083,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1952.083,"endTime":1955.72,"body":"If you liked what you're"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1952.083,"endTime":1955.72,"body":"hearing, subscribe to us,"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1955.92,"endTime":1958.022,"body":"like us, leave us a comment."},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1958.156,"endTime":1963.261,"body":"We will be back next week on"},{"speaker":"Jeff Cranmer","startTime":1958.156,"endTime":1963.261,"body":"the BioCentury This Week podcast"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1964.195,"endTime":1967.198,"body":"BioCentury would"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1964.195,"endTime":1967.198,"body":"like to thank CBER for supporting"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1967.198,"endTime":1969.167,"body":"the BioCentury This Week podcast."},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1969.634,"endTime":1974.272,"body":"To learn more about how CBER's"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1969.634,"endTime":1974.272,"body":"unmatched expertise, resources, and"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1974.272,"endTime":1979.711,"body":"connections empower life sciences"},{"speaker":"Voice Talent","startTime":1974.272,"endTime":1979.711,"body":"companies, visit cber.com/lifesciences"}]}