Ep162: The Outdoor Leader with Jeannette Stawski

David talks to Jeannette Stawski about her new book, The Outdoor Leader - a great introduction to leadership whether you work in the outdoors or not.

Transcript

Well, welcome to this episode of the humanity leadership podcast. And I'm I have a guest who's a returning guest from Episode 43 I think it is Jeanette storrski, the CEO of the Association of outdoor recreation and education, and I've asked her to join me today because I got this book in the mail just the other day, called the outdoor leader by Jeanette. It's just been published by mountaineers books, and it's a fascinating little read on leadership. So I thought, Who better to come on and talk about it. So Jeanette, tell me what inspired you to write this, and who's the audience? Sounds great. Well, good to see you again. David. You know, I was inspired because I was asked to actually write this book. So mountaineers reached out and asked if I would revisit this topic on leadership in the outdoor space, but also the lessons learned from guiding in the field, and the intended audience is really anyone who's leading. So yes, outdoor educators, outdoor facilitators, but it's not a like how to back, how to pack your backpack or how to guide an expedition, as much as how to guide yourself on the expedition of leadership. So it's really using the fundamentals of leadership through outdoor stories and adventures. And it does give some hints about things that you might want to make sure you've got with you in your backpack. It sure does. It's got some little tuck aside, and I know that's a common background that you and I have. So yes, it does cover some things like a leave nose trace principles, or how to make sure that you stay warm and dry, or have the things to stay warm and dry, I should say. But often we forget those things along the way. Well, being one of those people that travels around Michigan with a backpack that has 50 feet of paracord, carabiner, compass and a Leatherman in it, then it's aimed at me, really, isn't it? I love that. I love that you pulled those things out. So I I appreciate the joke there. But also, yes, all these things, right? That are toolkits, right? It's not a joke. That's the toolkit of things that we carry. And you probably carry those things from a previous experience, which, again, as you've been reading the book, is what it's all about. So literal P chord, or some of those things that we've learned from other leadership, is what you'll leadership is what you'll find. So your career background is all Outdoor Leadership based, and now you're running the Association for outdoor recreation education. And so this pulls on your experience of that world, but as you say, It transcends, and really it provides insight to anybody who wants to be in a leadership position. That's correct. You know, I've had the privilege of working in all different capacities as a whitewater guide to leading high school kids and building some trail crew, from guiding students internationally in a leadership program to facilitating a women's leadership retreat and then running an association and of course knowledge college outdoor program. But at the end of the day, take away the adventures. It's managing people expectations, setting a tone, dealing with conflict to achieve the goal of whatever you're after. And I think that's the common thread that goes through all the stories well. And another common thread are your stories. So it draws on the stories of your experience in the outdoors, as well as other obviously, friends, connections of yours, than sharing their snippets. And many of your stories are interesting because they're not necessarily the success stories. Well, I know we were joking about that, and you're exactly right. So when you say success, just to be clear to the readers, you know this is not a book about all the things that I've done and why you should be impressed. It's a book about all the things I've tried and maybe failed and had a misstep, what I've learned, and as a result of that, I believe that my efforts in leadership have been a success. So you're exactly right. I think through failure, through mishaps, through challenges, through poor decision making, I've become a better and better leader. And again, that's hopefully my offer with this book. And I appreciate the authenticity that goes with that and the vulnerability. Because, you know, all too often you see books about how I got to this level of success and and you even have a chapter on the value of failure. Yes, yes. You know, I think that's one thing. And I actually your first question about why writing this book, you know, again, a privilege to be asked by mountaineers to do it. But I think you're right. I mean, a lot of the books, both in the outdoor space, but in leadership, are all about how someone has conquered something or overcome something, hit the highest peak or rafted the biggest river. And this book isn't that. This book is the adventures that are around their the journey on the way to the mountains or coming back from the river, or things that happen on the river. But it's not so much about the conquest as much as the self discovery, right? And there's some familiar pieces in there. I recognize that's right. I What do you say you borrow the brilliance? So I got to borrow the brilliance of human energy and leadership and choice in the matrix. And again, I talk about this, David, I think humanity was so critical in my development as a leadership leader a handful of years ago, when I took the first hilt class again, it was something that I was so empowered by it that I've included it as my first chapter in this book. I just love the concept. I love the application.
And it really, really spoke to me. And I think hopefully we'll speak to other people in terms that might make it relatable. And of course, if it's relatable, then we can act on it, right? I know that's the four choices of leadership that you mentioned, and you frame up the first chapter with that is from our book. What great teams do, great I also appreciate the little nod to the 50 do's for everyday leadership as well that I spotted.
Well, you know, you might as well again, borrow the brilliance. That's one of those other messages that comes out if you're in leadership. And so the the audience is anybody that's interested in leadership, but really, the Venn diagram would be, if you're interested in the outdoors and you're interested in leadership, you'll find this particularly appealing. I think that's right. I think that's right. But, you know, I would hate to limit it to one category. But I think there's also a brilliance to be not have too wide of a mission when you're trying to relay or parlay a message. And so I think anyone who's working in the space, volunteering in the space, leading, you know, a church group or a synagogue group to a camp and everything in between is really the desired audience. So as you went through it, what's, you know, what's a couple of the chapters that you'd really say, you know, if you're only going to read two chapters, these are the two that you would push people towards. Oh, that's a great question. Well, good thing. I've got my book sitting right next to me, so I could actually pull that open, because I'm new at this experience. But you know, the one that actually pops out to me that I think a lot about, and I think if you look at the table of contents, people have been surprised about, is the adventure ordeal. And I think that's a concept that most people haven't really thought about, you know, this idea of what part could be preventable and what part is suffering because of poor decision making. And we do that both outdoors in the indoors, you know. And I think probably the next one that that pops up to me would be making mistakes, chapter 12, you know. And I think I did share with you, David, when I was asked to write the book, I had mentioned it to my parents, and my dad actually suggested that the book could be titled where I went wrong. And he said, If you title the book where I went wrong, people will be more apt to read it, because they don't really want to hear about you and your successes. They want to hear about you and your learnings. And so making mistakes is kind of a nod to him, right? And that first chapter, the is it an adventure or an ordeal? Yes, I think is like you say, that's relevant to anybody as well, isn't it? Are you? Are you actually feeling the pain because you're pushing yourself to a place in a well planned expedition that that that just is hard work, or are you suffering the blisters because you didn't prepare well and you're wearing the wrong socks? You're exactly right, you know? And again, you gave some great outdoor examples, but I think this is so transferable, you know? I think, you know, I've got a son, Thor, who is in high school, and actually, just yesterday, we were talking about an experience he had in leadership, on on his new team. And he was talking about a pain point he was having with with trying to put away the goals at the end of the night, everyone else had left, and he was left there putting them away. He was running late. And I said, Well, what would happen if you didn't do it? And he talked about letting the team down. And I also, we also talked about what, what boundaries or role modeling it is for everyone else to take advantage of that. So some of these lessons of, isn't it isn't our deal? Are you taking things on? Are you tolerating something that you shouldn't tolerate at the expense of others, and how did that impact your leadership? And I just really was struck by that he's navigating that as a 15 year old and just trying to help him see going through the pain sometimes is it takes away the learning from someone else for poor preparation. Yeah, and I think it's great when I mean, I found the four choices is one of those things that is sticky with people, that they take it home and share it with their kids, because they're experiencing that in life for real, and it's very tangible. And a lot of the messages that you say a really just tangible, useful messages for people to go out and be the best versions of themselves in whatever world they're in. That's correct, you know, and having a chance, I think again, as parents or as leaders, you can look back and you can you can see where those apply in different ways that your staff or the people that that are choosing to follow you, you know, I was gonna say that, not that you lead, but that choose to follow you, that you can help them see, so they can be a better make a better impact wherever they're leading, right? And so then, what's the, what's the next step with this? Is the plans to do more with it? Is there a volume two? Is there a book tour coming? This is these are, these are great questions. I don't, I don't necessarily know how this whole, how this whole world works, but, you know, I think it's starting to I think, now that people have received it and are starting to read it, I think there's, there's a maybe both a vulnerability and an approachability that that maybe is resonating with people. And so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a chance to look at other aspects or go deeper into these topics on the next level. You know, I'd love to do some speaking and try to elevate groups or teams. Love to lead them towards other leadership development programs, things that I'm involved with Hilton otherwise, and help them really connect the dots in their different communities. So that would be my ideal outcome of moving us forward, is helping people connect the book to their actions through other leadership opportunities. And I'm assuming you're going to be the keynote speaker at the i.
Association of outdoor recreation education conference this fall. Well, I don't necessarily know about that. Well, we'll see. I do want to keep those things complimentary, but there's a lot of other voices, and I think that that's also another part of this book is to elevate other voices in the industry, or other leaders that I've admired. You know, Cory Fernandez, someone also involved with humaneries, one of the contributing people in the book. And again, I think I just had this opportunity, but I think more people can rise with me and share their perspective and leadership too, will make us all better, right? And I thought you were off the list because you bailed on your co facilitator in 2023 conference. That's right, that's right. You know, that was me, for those that aren't guessing, then, yeah, this is why I know you're so excited to come back again this year presented again. I'll have to look into that. So then last thing that I'd ask is, where do people go to find out the outdoor leader, yeah, there's a couple of different places so they can find them on the website. Leading valiantly. So leading and then V, a, l, I, a, n, T, L, y.com, leading valiantly.com. Could also find it on mountaineers.org.
The website there, and then also a local store in town that is a great partner, book suite. So book suite shop. Book suite here in Ann Arbor is another spot where people can find the book that's cool, and all of those places are better to buy it from than Amazon. That's correct. And there is, it is on Amazon. If you, if you find yourself pointing there again, try to support local retailers. And mountaineers is a national nonprofit, so that's a nice thing to support and and they keep feeding it back into the work that they're they're trying to do. So that's correct. Yeah, cool. Well, thank you for joining us today. I encourage people to go out and take a look at the outdoor leader by Jeanette storrski. It's available as of this march 2024
if you enjoyed this episode, there's episode 56 of the humanity leadership podcast. Talked about the stages of adventure, which is a tool from my way my background and work of Colin Mortlock, and how that actually still applies to anybody in the leadership role as well. So I'm guessing there might be a bit of a crossover audience with jeanette's group, so I'm pushing them in that direction too. So but thank you for joining us, and I look forward to hearing the next adventure. Sounds great. Looking forward to that too. Have a great day. You.