Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Join Pastors Nick Billardello and Andy Romstad as they teach the Christian faith in a relevant and relatable way. They also talks about other stuff.
Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Revelation 8 w/ Nick & Andy
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Nick & Andy are still in Revelation, this week exploring...
+ Does God have a divine mute button?
+ Do our prayers influence God’s actions?
+ Can fish sin?
+ The seventh seal, God's burns down 1/3 of nature to make a point, plagues from the heavens, darkness in the earth, Andy's dislike of Revelation, and some fun with Revelation 8 in the middle of Holy Week.
Bitterness: How Sin corrupts from within
SPEAKER_00It's it's just one way of seeing this this bitterness grow. Uh, because sin corrupts from within. It changes us. If we let it in, no matter how small, it grows and it turns life-giving things into source like relationships into things that you know become harmful things for us because they lead to uh you know anger and frustration and hatred and all those things. Uh, and so relationships are supposed to be good. They're not supposed to be easy, but they're supposed to be good. They're supposed to be a source of joy in life, but they're not always. And then it grows into other things. Andy, I I could I could go on. To quote Andy. To quote Andy, I could go on, but uh put that into your Easter sermon. Hey everybody, thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's word one chapter at a time. I see, is that right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we have it'll be like three, four hundred kids filling the church. And uh, we do Easter egg hunts, we do bouncy houses, we get the names and contacts of all of the visitors so that we can uh invite them to church and do our kids' ministry. And uh then we'll have the Easter story at the end. We have the Easter bunny. I didn't know the Easter bunny was allowed in churches, but uh we got a kid that uh dresses up in the Easter bunny costume. Last year, people thought it was me because we were about. So no, I was not the Easter bunny. I have different responsibilities on Easter Nick.
SPEAKER_00So are you giving away candy? What kind of candy are you giving away?
SPEAKER_02I have no idea. I'm I'm so uninvolved. It's wonderful. Uh it's just great. But I uh I have other things.
SPEAKER_00You got enough on your plate, though. You got enough on your plate. Uh we we are doing our podcast on Holy Week, but about two hours ago, Andy was like, I can't do it. I can't, I'm just too busy.
SPEAKER_02You you are right. I thought I'm crazy. But then I thought, Nick, I thought our listeners will be so disappointed if we don't do it. And actually, since you and I connected on that, I had one, I was talking to one about it, said we nearly didn't do it, and she told me that she would have been very disappointed. She's a loyal listener. Nick, did you see the number of downloads over the past week? It's like some sort of new record.
SPEAKER_00I was about to say that, yeah, we are grateful for all our listeners. And uh last week, uh a new record in downloads. So uh we thank you so much for listening and for telling other people about it. And if you do like our podcast, please give a rate us on your podcast uh app and tell others about us. We we are grateful for listening. I mean, Andy, if we just get like you know, a million more, we could do this full time, like Joe Rogan.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, I'm I'm sure that would go well. So in fact, I was uh uh wondering at first when I saw all those downloads if it was because uh people uh like to listen or if somebody out there thinks we're heretics, Nick. Uh that's kind of what I was wondering about.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's like there's no such thing as bad press, right?
SPEAKER_02You're right. It's the Oscar Wilde quote the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
5 Easter Services
SPEAKER_00So that's right. So it's holy week. Uh Palm Sunday go well. Now you uh for you, then you got Maudy Thursday and Good Friday. Are you doing Maundy Thursday? Are you guys at May Thursday church?
SPEAKER_02We yeah, we have three services on Monday, Thursday, noon or no, 11:30, 5:30, and 7. We have one on Good Friday, then Saturday morning we have the Kids' Easter event, Saturday night. We have the first of five Easter services, and then Sunday morning we'll do four. We cut uh Easter service this year, Nick. And the reason is I I just cannot preach five times over the span of four hours. And so it was like physically not possible to be in all the rooms at the right time.
SPEAKER_00So he does have limitations, folks. That's great.
Nick Washing Feet
SPEAKER_02So I'm just hoping if anyone's wondering, uh, our associate Emily had left uh about a month ago. So uh we're having to figure stuff out. But it'll be a great week, Nick.
SPEAKER_00Are you washing feet tomorrow? I'm washing feet.
SPEAKER_02Uh I am impressed you are. We used to. We're not currently doing that. In fact, our our Monday-Thursday focus this year for the first time in a while will be uh communion, the sacrament. But tell us how does the foot washing work, Nick?
SPEAKER_00So it's our first year doing it. So I'm gonna get on my knees and I'm gonna have people come in and put their feet in a bucket of soapy water. I'm gonna wash their feet with a little dish towel and then put it in a bucket of clean water and then dry their feet. And uh I hope nobody wants their feet washed, but I'm gonna be doing it. That's great.
SPEAKER_02You know, Emily had this fantastic story about first time she was at a foot washing in like a college youth group or something, and uh uh sh she had to wash someone's feet who like had very dirty feet, and she did not want to. And uh I don't know, she tells it in a wonderful way, uh, but it really kind of gets at it's not the most pleasant, wonderful thing. And it really shows us something about Jesus' heart of serving, especially, you know, in his day when people are wearing, I'm assuming, sandals all day, but it's dusty and dirty and all the rest of it.
SPEAKER_00I had a friend tell me a story about he went on a retreat in a different country and they they all spoke different languages, so he didn't know how to break the ice, so he did foot washing. There were 30 people in the room, so he got down on his knees and washed everyone's feet as a way of introduction, and then the person next to him got down on their knees and washed everyone's feet got washed 30 times.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Wow.
SPEAKER_00They just all followed the followed the leaf, so I thought that would be pretty that was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_02But I don't want anyone to wash my feet personally.
SPEAKER_00We're also doing a hand washing statement. So so Pastor Christine will be washing people's hands if they prefer that.
SPEAKER_02So who do you think will have a longer line? You or Christine?
SPEAKER_00I I'm assuming few people want their feet washed, but I'll I'm there for it. I'll be that's good. I'm open to it.
SPEAKER_02We had uh about 20 years ago we did that here, and I had to I had the worst time finding someone who would agree to have their foot feet wash their feet washed during worship. And uh so eventually I talked one of the staff members into it. You know, they didn't want to get fired, so they let me wash your feet or else that's right. But it'll be Nick, it'll be a it'll be a great weekend. Be a great weekend.
SPEAKER_00Speaking of things we don't want to do, Andy. Are you ready to start Revelation 8?
SPEAKER_02Oh man, Revelation. Are we back? We're still in Revelation. We'll be in Revelation forever, Nick. You can uh just sense my enthusiasm.
SPEAKER_00We are now reaching the part of Revelation that you and I are have been dreading.
SPEAKER_02The seventh seal?
SPEAKER_00Up until this point, the seventh seal and then the trumpets. Um, have you ever seen the movie Dead Poet Society?
SPEAKER_02Nick, yes, that's one movie I've seen, Carpe Diem.
SPEAKER_00Carpe Diem. I figured you'd see because it you know it came out a while ago and you've had time to watch it. You know the scene where they're where Robin Williams has them ripping out sheets of page, ripping out pages from the book? Yeah. From their textbook. If I had a choice choice of like one page of the Bible that I could rip out, this might be it. Like just rip it out. Like, let's just move on. We don't know.
SPEAKER_02I love it. Revelation eight. So you don't even want to have it in your Bible, Nick. Is that this one in particular?
Revelation 8: The Seventh Seal
SPEAKER_00This one is well or their whole book. Andy, you've got like 45 minutes to change my mind. Okay, okay. I'm trying. All right, so let's jump in. Verses one through five. The seventh seal. When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about a half an hour. Maybe maybe we could do the 30 minutes of silence podcast. The thirty minutes of silence. And then verse two, and I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne, and the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth. And there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and earthqu and an earthquake. So as God's people are praying, Andy, for a resolution to all things, their prayers were touched by the fire from the altar in heaven, and then thrown back down to the earth.
SPEAKER_03Uh-oh.
SPEAKER_00So here we go. Why is there 30 minutes of silence in heaven? And do our prayers have an influence on how or when the end will come?
SPEAKER_02Um answer the last one first, but I would say yes, Nick, you know, and that's strange for me, but I would I would say yes. And why why is there 30 minutes of silence? Um, the the standard answers to that are a pause for prayer, prayers of all the saints to rise before God. Uh second one, divine anticipation. And then a third one is a hush in the court in the heavenly liturgy. Silence uh precedes movements of God. And just a note on this: I mean, this is not only an answer in Revelation 8, but I mean, this is also true in our own worship services. Often the most effective moment, I think, when on our traditional service, when we're doing the prayers of the church, prayers of intercession, some call it, we just have the time of silence where people are invited to lift up in their own hearts who they're praying for. And you can just feel in the room uh something happening that is powerful. And I always appreciate that. And also silence is an important element of worship. And I think silence is also an important element of prayer. We so often think of prayer as talk, talk, talk. You know, here's my laundry list, God, get on it. And, you know, prayer needs to be listening. So it's 30 minutes of silence in heaven, it's kind of a holy moment. So, you know, it's kind of this divine partnership piece. Um, yeah, I could go on, Nick. What are you thinking?
No Easter Vigil
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I like the idea of uh holy anticipation. The idea where you know it's striking because what we've heard about heaven so far is that it's always filled with worship. And now there's silence. We have 30 minutes of silence, and and I'm reminded of the world we live in, there's never silence outside. There's always cars going. There's where we live, there's planes going nearby. And and I go back to like six years ago when COVID first hit and how like the roads were empty and there were no planes in the sky. And it was just like this weird sense of like silence that is was just striking. It was like something I never experienced before. And and and in this heavenly silence, I think we we do sense the holy anticipation. And I think that we, as the people of God, going into Holy Week in Holy Week, and you know, the the the the time between Good Friday and Easter Sunday, you know, I think it's a time of holy anticipation. The uh I don't know if you've ever been to an Easter vigil on a Saturday, you know, late Saturday night. Uh, the anticipation that builds waiting to hear the good news that he has risen. Um I think there's there's power in that. Uh, but I think for this, it's it's speaking to the seriousness of what's about to happen. The rest, again, the rest of the chapter is there's there's some stuff in here that is rough. And um, you know, and so what do we do with it? What you know, there's there's so there's anticipation and then there's seriousness, um, and then there's this fire from all from the altar of God is thrown onto the earth. And this is, you know, God's prayers being thrown, uh, the prayers of the faithful being thrown back onto the earth. Um, I think it tells us that God hears our prayers, God responds to our prayers, and somehow prayer is mysteriously connected to how God acts in the world. And and we can't I I I don't think we can pinpoint how it's actually uh connected to it, but but it is. Uh but I think it's uh it's an interesting concept to think that our prayers are turned into fire and then thrown back into the earth. I don't know what that means, but um, you know, again, I so for we're we're five verses in, I I still say rip it out.
SPEAKER_02So Nick, by the way, you're gonna do a vigil on Saturday, Easter Bigil, like a three-hour one, like late at night, the way you're supposed to do it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't think we get I I don't think we we're gonna do that this year, Andy. But um, you know.
SPEAKER_02I I did go to one at thir, man, 25, 30 years ago at my dad's church when he was senior pastor at Central Lutheran in Minneapolis. And it was like big, all the smells and bells, and about three hours long. And it was actually, I liked that one. And it was kind of funny, people getting up and coming in and out, arriving late, leaving early. And uh, you know, hanging out. It was actually just sort of uh, it felt like an old school worship experience. It was just kind of a kind of neat. We we did one in the early years I was here, and I quit after the year that I discovered I was finding myself having to talk people into going because otherwise no one would go.
SPEAKER_00So well, you're doing Saturday night worship though, right?
SPEAKER_02We are, but it it is the farthest thing from a vigil. I'll say that. It's loud guitars. We do have incense, though, but it's a smoke machine, uh, Nick, that we have the fog machine going.
SPEAKER_00Is it an incense omatic or something like that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I compare it. Actually, I said uh in one room we have incense, in the other we got the fog machine, same thing. Um we're gonna move on to the first trumpet, Nick. Now, verses six and seven. Now, the seven angels who had the seven trumpets made ready to blow them. And the first angel blew his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and they were hurled to the earth, and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. Man, this is kind of out of the Lord of the Rings, Nick. Uh, Pete, by the way, has been watching Lord of the Rings. On your recommendation, I made that to him, and he loves it now. He's binge watching Lord of the Rings.
SPEAKER_00Love it.
SPEAKER_02Like an hour at a time. They're really long.
SPEAKER_00Well done, Pete.
SPEAKER_02All right. Uh, but uh commentary on this, because of the hail and the fire, the trees and the grass are destroyed, a third of the vegetation on the planet is destroyed, all the green grass. And many wonder if this will happen through phenomenon we know today. I mean, it could be war, nuclear war, fallout, pollution, meteors. Uh so Nick, is this God bringing judgment on nature? Or excuse me, is this God bringing judgment? Or is nature just taking its course? What do you what do you think?
SPEAKER_00I think it's I think it's an interesting question. I mean, that's what was going in my mind, that's why I wrote the question, you know, is is God doing this or is God just stepping back and letting nature do its thing? Um you know, you hear about with climate change, all these things that are gonna happen, right? And and you know, uh it is the question that comes to my mind is you know, is God is this going to happen sooner than God had planned on it because human beings have caused it to happen sooner? When you look at the uh the capability to destroy the world through nuclear war, right? Are human beings going to cause an end before God chooses to say you know, I I was gonna come back in a hundred years, but they've ended it already. So why bother? Or, you know, so what's actually going on here? I don't I think Revelation says that the answer is both, right? God is sovereign over creation, God is sovereign over the earth, and natural forces can become instruments of judgment. I mean, there is this is uh an earthquake, right? They uh there was earthquake or or was it the last uh last verse that says there were uh peals of thunder, rumbling, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. And so, you know, you're looking at things that appear to be natural disasters. And and so Revelation is talking about both. But I think what this reminds us is that creation is not separate from God, that that the creation that we live in uh is all part of God's creation, and sin, our sin has consequences not just for people, but for the whole world, for the whole of creation. Romans 8 says, Romans 8 verse 20 and 21. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into freedom in the glory of the children of God. And so creation itself, all of creation is damaged by sin, is affected by sin, but then the the good news is that all of creation is restored. And so when we talk about things like, you know, are it's all of creation go uh our mosquitoes going to be restored in heaven, right? All the things that we you know what does that mean? Well, I I don't know, but but but I I I'm I'm I'm stuck thinking like sin has cosmic consequences. It it has consequences that are so much so much deeper than any of us could ever understand. Uh and but but Andy, so then the question I have is how does the brokenness of humanity spill over into the environment and all of creation? How does that work? I I don't know if I have an answer or clear understanding of that, but but from what I scripture tells us, I think it does. What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think uh the correct reading of scripture is this is divine judgment. It's active hand, um active hand of God at work, not just, you know, natural phenomenon. Uh I do think also that we impact the environment. It's kind of interesting. Um, I mean, I read once, I was surprised by this, that there are more trees, more forests today than there were before the, you know, the continent was, you know, is uh civilized, so to speak, or occupied by more people is maybe a better way to put it. And uh why is that? Because we uh, you know, uh, you know, prevent forest fires. It, you know, hit, you know. Yeah, the other piece in the environment is uh I do think that caring for the environment is something that uh matters creation care in a big way for people that are followers of Christ. We have uh, you know, solar, we produce all of our electrical power through solar at our house. Solar is, you know, not perfect. I'm not saying that anyone can call me on that. There's some dirty aspects of solar. But um we drive high mileage cars. I mean, I just anyway we recycle like mad. Um I think there are, and we compost all our food, waste and all of that. I think there are ways that we're just called to take care of the creation, what we've been given. Um you know, but yeah, in this particular case, I see this as divine judgment. Nick, am I right? Am I wrong? What are you thinking?
SPEAKER_00I think you're right. And I think it's important to say that that's not a political statement you just made. It's just part of being a good steward of what God has given us.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
Sermons w/o a Cough Drop
SPEAKER_00Um, but I I do want to speaking of somebody who, you know, takes care of things and and that coffee cup you're holding in your hand, Andy.
SPEAKER_02This is waste, Nick.
SPEAKER_00We're we are 19 and a half minutes in, and you have not put that thing down once. And I'm just wondering, is there like it's a small cup, but is there is there like a is it like the the the oil in the candles at uh or are you just refilling it? Is that what's happening? I have to do that. I'm just impressed.
SPEAKER_02This is uh so most of the time I don't use throwaway cups. I use Yetis. You saw me carry around a Yeti, the whole abiding grace retreat. This is actually uh Yeti from the company Livewire that put in our uh put in our solar, speaking of solar. And uh, but yeah, I I had this Nick on Sunday. It was wild. I lost my voice in the middle of my sermon. And we were doing communion at all services and every all the timing had to be perfect. I nailed it at 8:30, nailed it at 9.15. You know that I wouldn't preach terribly long, right? But at uh at 10:30, speaking of silence, I didn't have a cough drop and I lost my voice about five minutes into the sermon, and I ran out of coffee, and I had to have people bring me stuff, and I was out of a cough drop, which is what I really needed. And one stupid 10 cent cough drop without that, the sermon just began to exponentially uh, you know, it's like 30 minutes of silence, Nick, that we just read about. Because I was, I was, someone said you were like pausing between sentences and all the rest, but I I caught uh some. Sort of a plague that just won't go away. And it was it was interesting because Emily, about two months ago, had to stop in the middle of a sermon to have me take over because she had something in her throat going on. And I took over using that microphone. I think I caught it that day, and I still have got something going on. So it's more than the reader, the listeners wanted to know, Nick.
SPEAKER_00But for those at home, this is an object lesson because Andy, while while giving this statement about a cough drop, literally opened the drawer in his desk, which I'm sure you heard, pulled out a cough drop, opened the cough drop, and after his little speech there, his little monologue, uh, put the cough drop in his mouth. And so uh but he did put the cup down for the first time in 20 minutes.
SPEAKER_02So there we go. That is true, Nick. And uh, but you know, the magic of AI, Nick, I think will probably edit out that drawer sound.
Can fish Sin?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I hope not. I hope not. I hope not.
SPEAKER_02All right, back to Revelation here.
SPEAKER_00The second trumpet, verses eight and nine. The second angel blew his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea became blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. So uh John carefully said that it's not an actual mountain, but something like a mountain is going to come, and uh it's going a blazing mass as well. I mean, we're talking about like a meteor, right? I don't know. Uh and a third of the living creatures in the sea will die, and a third of the ships will be destroyed. So we have uh uh massive burning falls into the sea, bringing death to marine life, destroying ships, impacting both nature and economy and the economy. And I wonder, Andy, are fish capable of sin? And why is nature being judged by God? Are these sharks sinners? Um goldfish.
SPEAKER_02Um I I know that cats are capable of sin, Nick. So that is uh cats are capable of sin. We have a cat inside a little too much. If if I close my office door, it tries to break in. Uh it loves to grab my feet with its claws if I have uh, you know, wool socks on in the winter. And so are fish capable of sin, though, is the question. Um, and I mean people ask this kind of question. I mean, they ask about animals, they're pretty legitimate questions. Is my my animal diet, is it going to heaven? And it's kind of a complicated, I mean, like, what about cattle that we you know create to, you know, make hamburgers versus, you know, we, you know, we we kind of humanize our animals, and it's kind of an interesting thing. So, but my official answer is no, Nick. Uh, fish are not capable of sin. Dogs, I'm not sure, but I like your dog. Uh your dog was very kind to me. Christian kindness, Nick, uh, and attention and affirmation and love. Uh, but here's why I say this: in Christian theology, sin uh uh requires will and the ability to choose between good and evil, which humanity has. Uh, fish, um, I'm not so sure. The only ones I would really be unsure of would be dolphins who have this incredible affinity for some reason with humans. Um, but will and the choice, the ability to choose between good and evil, uh, is just attributed to humans and spiritual beings. So, Nick, am I correct on that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and my dogs will be in heaven. There's they have to be. They have to be. Uh yeah. Uh, but no, I I I think it's just a creation has been affected by human sin, and they're part of the creation. And um I you know, I think it's interesting though, when you think about fish, uh there there's fish in the sea that we still haven't discovered because they're so deep. Um, and then there's fish that are well, aren't jellyfish like immortal? They just they don't die, they they could live forever. Um and the only uh fish are just stung by one once. Did you really?
SPEAKER_02I killed it. No, I didn't, but uh yeah, I did, I did uh we were fishing out there, or we are not fishing out there, we're swimming out there. I said, beware of the jellyfish. And uh whatever whatever they do, uh I got stung. Got it out of the way.
SPEAKER_00Wow, that's that's that's fun. Um so did never never mind. Um but but I th I think what what we see here is we God is exposing how deeply sin disrupts all of life. The natural ecosystems of the world, the economies of all the ships being I mean, you basically a third of the ships being destroyed, you know, there was no trucking back then, there was no air airplanes, everything went by ships. And if a third of the ships are destroyed, food isn't getting traded, you know, things are and so you're talking about economical uh economic uh chaos because of that. Uh and and I think that's part of it too. And so I think that uh you know it's just sin is sin just gets in and just it spreads and it becomes a part of everything and it it has an impact on everything.
The Plagues of Egypt
SPEAKER_02Aaron Powell Nick, why don't we use that as uh on ramp to talk about the Strait of Hormuz? How's that? Would that be No, let's not. I'm kidding, let's not. Uh but I think the easiest um got jokes, folks. He's got jokes. Yeah, right, hardly. Uh but I think that the easiest parallel for us to understand this are the plagues in Egypt, how God used the plagues in Egypt. And I think that is maybe a parallel. If we're trying to understand why and how would God use nature, uh we sort of get the plague stories. And uh I think that is uh an example. Am I right on that, Nick?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yes. And um and you think about uh I just led a Bible study on Moses, and and the interesting part is that there was a plague where like all the livestock and all the cattle were killed, and then like two plagues later, all the firstborn cattle died. And it's like, well, I thought all the cattle were already gone. Um, so it it it those stories are interesting, and I just don't know how to take them because if you read them sequentially, uh you're like, well, I thought that was already gone. I thought so uh, but but it is a the plagues are God impacting nature, God impacting nature that starts off as an annoyance that then becomes you know an economy, right? When you take away everyone's livestock, you're taking away their source of income. But Andy, I saw this the other day. Of the 10 animals that are eaten on earth, what do you think is number one?
SPEAKER_02Oh, wow, what is number one? Uh I don't know. Are you talking about like fish or shrimp or okay? Shrimp?
SPEAKER_00Chicken. Chicken, wow, okay. And would you believe me if I told you that cow wasn't even in the top ten?
SPEAKER_02No way. Wow, I suppose worldwide. Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00A lot of seafood, but yeah, cow is a very American.
SPEAKER_02Chicken chickens running free around here eat ticks. So pro having chickens. We don't have any chickens, but yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, all right. So versus uh where where are we at?
SPEAKER_0212 to 13. The fourth trumpet.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, we're on 10 through 11, Andy.
SPEAKER_02Tell us about wormwood. Are we on oh man, are we on that? Okay, sorry, I'm getting ahead of myself here. You're right. So the third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood. Man, I tell you, the links to Lord of the Rings are just huge. And many died from the water because it was made bitter. So, Nick, let's unpack this. The third trumpet brings a plague on freshwater ecological uh systems. It's a disaster. Uh, in each one of the trumpets, a third of an ecological system is destroyed. A third of the water becomes wormwood or bitter. And the name wormwood means bitterness. Where do we see bitterness spreading in the world in our lives? And what are its effects? Nick.
SPEAKER_00So something that becomes essential for life, drinking water now is something that brings death, right? And and it's poison. It's bitter, it's poison. Um, wormwood, you know, I think wormwood is the name of um one of the characters in one of C.S. Lewis's books. Um it means bitter, and and and I think that matters because bitterness is sin leads to bitterness, right? It it connects, it all connects spiritually. Um, and so sin often begins subtly and then spreads, and then we become bitter. Bitter poisons relationships, bitterness poisons communities, bitterness poisons hearts. I think one of the things that we don't talk about enough is Luther's explanation of the eighth commandment, where we are called to just, you know, it's not just that we are to uh defend our, you know, to to to not speak falsely about our neighbor, but to defend their reputation, to not gossip about them, to not uh to Luther says we we should protect their reputation and we should hold them in the best possible light, see each other in the best possible light. Don't let frustration and dislike in. Don't let it in because it festers and it grows and becomes bitterness, and then our neighbors all of a sudden become our enemies. And so I think that that that is happening all over America. What the when we're talking about political division and all the other things, we allow this dislike to enter, it festers, it grows, and all of a sudden people who used to be important to us are people we don't talk to anymore because this bitterness has grown. And I think this happens all the time, everywhere, and uh, and I think it's it's just one way of seeing this this bitterness grow. Uh, because sin corrupts from within. It changes us. If we let it in, yeah, no matter how small, it grows and it turns life-giving things into source like relationships into things that you know become harmful things for us because they lead to uh you know anger and frustration and hatred and all those things. Uh and so relationships are supposed to be good. They're not supposed to be easy, but they're supposed to be good. They're supposed to be a source of joy in life, but they're not always are. And then it grows into other things. Andy, I I could I could go on to quote. You go on Andy, I could go on, but uh put that into your Easter sermon, man.
SPEAKER_02You're you're going. You're going. Are you preaching on Good Friday too?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
Can envy be a virtue?
SPEAKER_02Okay. You got you got material there. I'd I'd use it. Um, I've been giving, I mean, bitterness and envy kind of go together. Trying to remember if they're both one of the seven deadly sins or not. But bitterness I see, envy I see. And it kind of goes, I see a lot of Christians, especially on the bitterness one, that um get just eaten up by it. They're just bitter about something that happened in their life, they're bitter about a past relationship, they're bitter about people that didn't give them what they wanted, they're bitter about not getting their way, and they can't get past it. And it's really interesting. And we talk about how Jesus Christ will change your life, about how faith changes us, about how spiritual transformation happens, about how we're new in Christ. And one of the challenges that I wonder about is there are people, though, that really won't get past those things. And that's something I struggle with, something I look at. It's easy to point your finger at other people. I'm sure it's true of all of us. And, you know, if we talk about repentance, the the you know, a new mindset, I mean, repentance speaks right into that. Giving those things away, giving those things to the Lord, letting go of all of those things is the only time that we really find healing. That's why so often they say forgiveness is just for us. And I was reading this piece the other day on envy, and it it really said something that struck with me that envy in the old days was a sin. To be envious of another person would just, as we talked about with bitterness, will poison you. And this uh commentator's observation was how strange it is that envy in culture now, in many ways, has become a virtue. To bash or beat up or down uh you know, badmouth, whatever it might be, those who have more, or in in someone's opinion, have too much, or you know, to basically bash the rich or whatever it might be. Envy has become, in some ways, you know, a uh this particular person said it was kind of a perceived as a virtue that we're good, we're not bad like those people that have too much. And this commentator's take uh was just whether that is, you know, widespread or not. His take was when did envy become a virtue? Because envy like bitterness will eat us up. Nick?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Can bitterness coexist with grace? I don't think so.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, wow. Wow, yeah.
The Fourth Trumpet
What Does the Darkening of Light Mean?
SPEAKER_00I mean, God is capable of grace because I God is not a God but bitterness, but but in our lives, if if if we choose bitterness, then um I don't think bitterness and grace can coexist. All right, the fourth trumpet. Let's let's finish this chapter that we love so much. Amen. Verses twelve through thirteen. The fourth angel blew his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light was darkened, and a third of the day was kept from shining, and likewise the night. Then I looked and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew in mid-heaven. Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth at the blast of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow. Woe, woe, woe. Another great confirmation verse. Oh, yeah. The fourth trumpet brings a plague on the heavens and darkness on the earth. Jesus said in Matthew 24, 29, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, talking about the end. So, what does the darkening of light symbolize about spiritual or moral conditions in the world? And how does it connect to themes of fear, confusion, or separation from God? Andy.
SPEAKER_02Well, um, the short answer is moral blackout. Okay, that people have, for whatever reason, walked away from who God would have them be. And it's also the moral blackout of the withdrawal of God's guidance. And it, you know, historically has been understood as kind of a, you know, that we're in spiritual confusion, and uh uh that creates a state of fear and separation where people, you know, lose their way because they've lost the guidance of the true light, so they're looking for it anywhere or in anything, or uh just saying that it doesn't exist. Um that's kind of what came to mind for me, Nick. What are you thinking?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, in scripture, light represents truth. It represents God's presence, it represents order and clarity. And so the darkness represents the opposite of all that. It's you know, being being led astray by lies, it's being um, you know, not having God's presence, it's uh it's confusion, it's disorienting, it's fear, it's instability, it's all those things. Uh, and so when humanity turns from God, the result isn't just moral failure, it's darkness, it's confusion, it's it's not having you know a compass, it's not it's not having a a guide in life, you know, where where are we going? And so that's what this is. The the darkness is not, you know, it's it's just spiritual disorientation, you know, a I don't know what to do, I don't know what's right, I don't know, I don't know how to live, I don't know, you know, it's it's it's a world of of sin. It's a world of pain and suffering and all the things that go along with it.
Revelation 8: A Warning for the World
SPEAKER_02And I think often that happens when people intentionally choose this blackout, so to speak, um, when they because they don't believe that there is anything to be found in the realm of the spiritual, in the realm of God's guidance, in the realm of scripture or whatever it might be, the the leading of the Holy Spirit, they don't believe that it's real or there or present or for them means so often we think that uh it's gonna cost us. It's not a blessing, it's a burden. And it's so interesting because uh, you know, I mean, the blessing, I mean, the been reading this book by a pastor in Minnesota uh, you know, about life's tough choices or something like this. And and he's just been walking through about how discipline, seeking and following God's guidance, ultimately brings incredible blessing. And his main metaphor there is, you know, the narrow door versus you know the wide uh door, uh, narrow entrance. And uh it's pretty, it's it's pretty uh engaging, at least for me. So Nick?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So let's have a bonus question here, Andy. Now that we're through Revelation 8, where do you see mercy in this chapter? Is it there?
SPEAKER_02Oh man. Um Yeah. Um, where do I see mercy in this? Well, um the mercy of listening, 30 minutes of listening, that's mercy to a given ear. Uh, you know, only one-third was destroyed. That would be that'd be mercy. Um, incense rising before God, the prayers of the saints. Uh, you know, it's not random. It's uh, you know, uh there is a response to suffering, is what I'm saying. And uh the trumpet as kind of an alarm uh to you know, warn people of impending danger, that's merciful. Hey, you're going the wrong, you're going down the wrong road, and you keep going down this road, it's not gonna be good. I mean, all of those are sorts of variations on mercy. Nick, am I on the right track?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you've said all the things I was gonna say. Yeah, and I would just add this that you know that these are warnings in the Trump. It's a warning, right? It's a um and uh I I Wednesdays at one o'clock in our community, the first Wednesday of the month at one o'clock, our our community tests the um the the the loud siren for weather, right? And and it happened just before we got out, and it's right, the the really loud siren, like, hey, take cover or whatever. That and I was worried that like, you know, I hope it's done by the time we start because it's so loud. Um, but it's a warning, and I think that that's what this is. This is a warning. Uh, and I think what we have to remember in Revelation is that God's judgment is not about destruction for the sake of destruction. God is not, God takes no joy in destruction, uh, but it's about calling the world back to him. It's about calling everyone back to to God. And uh, you know, and so when we see these things happen, it's a way of saying, you know, God is calling us back to him. Uh our our actions, the way we have lived, has done damage to the world and it's done damage to ourselves and our relationships, but it's not too late to go back to God. I think that's that's kind of where we find mercy in this.
SPEAKER_02Um absolutely, it's a warning. What what I when I hear it's a warning, Nick, I try and bring it to the present state of the world and think about how is it that people hear that warning today? Because pretty commonly it's I lead a good life, you know, I don't have uh many challenging needs other than the occasional health issue that may come up in people's lives or relational issue, pressure, stress, I guess. Yeah. But I mean, it's almost like it life is for many pretty comfortable. Yet there's this warning here. How do we hear the warning is really what I'm trying to mean. It's kind of like in the Old Testament and throughout the Bible, the prophets were always ignored and, you know, killed. Do people hear the warning? And what would be the effective way to share a warning? And by what do we mean exactly by warning too? Nick, any thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think I think you see, you watch the news and you see all the things going on in the world, and you see you see the world um operating in such a way that that people are not concerned with what God has to say. And I think I think it's frustrating. And I know people walk away from the church because they're like, how can God allow these things to happen? But I think what that says for us is that there's work for us to do. There's work for us to do. And and we can either be focused on our own selves, we can be focused on our own bank accounts and all those other things. We can get up each day and or we can be focused on what God wants. You know, what well we are kingdom people, and and are we living a life that uh displays kingdom values? Are we living a life that proclaims the good news? Uh, because there is sin and evil in the world, and there's God in the world, and there's God's people in the world, the body of Christ. And uh it's, you know, we we are called to live on our faith so that we can make a positive impact on the world. And uh, and there's certainly room to grow in in our world today. So I think I think that's what it is. I I you know, I don't really like the word warning. I like the word, you know, I I I don't know what a better word is, but uh but I I do think that um you can see a lot of this stuff happening in the world now.
SPEAKER_02You know, because um I read this study uh recently, past week, I think it was from 2024, said that every week about 5% of the population goes to church. But and this is what's interesting 73% of the population goes to church at least once. Once a year. And for many of them, you know, it's going to be on the big days, Easter, Christmas. And they're going to come in and they're going to participate for various reasons. And some of them are just going to say, yep, same old, same old. I've been here, got it done. But I mean, if there was some sort of uh opportunity to, you know, to practice this verse, you know, whether it's warning or another word, uh, I mean, that is the day. And and the other side side thought I had on that is that warning is often, I mean, fear evangelism never works. Fear evangelism is never permanent. You don't drive people to the Lord uh through fear and by warning them. Uh so that's the other thought I had as I as I look at this word in our text of warning. Nick?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I I I've had this stat in my head for the last 15 years, and I'm it's probably changed, but the amount of people who go to church on a weekly basis, like you said, would you say five percent?
SPEAKER_02That's a 2024 study. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then what, 70 some percent go once a year?
SPEAKER_0273% will show up at least once.
SPEAKER_00Uh the so the stat I was working with, I think it was 14% of the people would say they this is 15 years old, say they went to worship every week, but like 79% some said that they believe in God, that they believe in Jesus, right? Americans. And so I've been that two-thirds of the people, two-thirds of the people living in the United States, two-thirds, two out of every three people you meet are people who say they believe in Jesus but don't go to church more than once a year. I mean, to me that's wild to think about the impact that we could have as the church in the world, in our country, if people were connected, you know, more than just saying I believe in Jesus, but were connected to a place where they were growing in their faith, they were growing in understanding as to who God is and what it means to follow God today. We could I mean the church that we could we could have an incredible we could live in an incredible place with an incredible incredible society if if if we could figure out a way to get those two-thirds back into church or into church, or I don't you know, I I I I don't know why they don't go. I'd love to know why you know I have I have theories, um, and but uh you know, there's certainly room to grow, room to grow, Andy.
Grace Abides
SPEAKER_02I mean, that really is the question. Uh, why don't they go back? And, you know, people always blame the culture. You're not doing that, but people blame the culture. Another way of looking at it is you know, what does it say about us that they're not going back? And and people tend to vote with their feet. They they vote with their feet and they go wherever they find life. That's actually our vision statement for our church is find life. We want people to come here and find life, John 10, 10. And uh, but yeah, Nick, you mean Emily maybe will have to get together and talk about that sometime.
SPEAKER_00Um I I blame the pastors that preach for longer than 40 minutes.
SPEAKER_02Uh I thought I was in good place last week until the third service came along. And uh guilty again, Nick. Guilty again. That is, I think you're right.
SPEAKER_00All right, Andy. All right, Nick. Blessings to you on uh your holy week, holy weekend, uh, and to your congregation. And uh may good things be happening in Cambridge and in uh churches all over the world. We proclaim the good news.
SPEAKER_02Give them the good news, amen. I'll tune in some abiding grace. All right, I need sermon ideas. All right, thanks, Dick. We'll see you. Take care of you.