Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Join Pastors Nick Billardello and Andy Romstad as they teach the Christian faith in a relevant and relatable way. They also talks about other stuff.
Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Revelation 9 - Worst Chapter in the Bible?
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Nick and Andy tackle Revelation 9, one of the most intense sections of Scripture to see if there is truth in the chaos. In this episode, we discuss:
+ The "Worst" Chapter? | Why Revelation 9 has a reputation for being one of the most challenging reads in the entire Bible.
+ Nick’s Breaking Point | The real reason Nick decided to step away from the Revelation series after recording this specific chapter.
+ The Abyss Unleashed | Unpacking the terrifying imagery of a demonic army and what it actually represents for us today.
+ The Ultimate Victory | Shifting the focus away from the darkness to the One who holds the final victory.
+ The Value of Prophecy | How much weight should we truly give to the Book of Revelation in our spiritual walk?
God is on your side
SPEAKER_00The army coming is on your side because God is on your side and you're on God's side. Uh, and they are coming to um uh to fight against those who would mean you harm. And that's you know, if if we're gonna get anything from this, get that. Hey everybody, thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's word one chapter at a time. Happy Wednesday after Easter. Andy, how are you doing this morning?
SPEAKER_02Nick, I am uh let's put it this way glad Lent and Easter are done. How's that? Are we are we allowed? Is that good? I mean, that doesn't sound like good news, but what about you? How'd it go?
SPEAKER_00It went great, but uh I'm glad it's done as well. Uh it was a great season. Uh it started with the retreat that we had here in Texas and then all the midweek services and dinners together, and then Holy Week. And Easter was a wonderful uh celebration, but uh yeah, it's nice to it's nice to have that uh have that be done. Uh did you guys had what, five services?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we had five on Easter. I mean, from Palm Sunday through Easter, we had 12 services, seven of them different, in two different rooms. I preached to nine of them, and yeah, I I was ready uh to be done.
SPEAKER_00So it's nice to know we have folks at Abiding Grace listening to the podcast. They came up to me on Sunday and they're like, man, you're like part-time. Andy's working so much harder than you. He's got so many more services on Easter. And I said, you know what? It's all the same sermon. He only has to write one sermon. Like, man, I have to write one sermon. It's the same Easter sermon. It's not like, you know, it's not like he's doing that much more than me. I he didn't preach on Good Friday, folks. I mean, come on. He just listened to music on Good Friday. I preached on Good Friday, so it's not like he's doing that much more. He's just giving the same thing over and over again.
SPEAKER_02Good job, Nick. I did not preach on Monday, Thursday either. I had uh someone else from the church preach.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, he's not working that hard, folks. So uh by the time you preach the same sermon the fifth time, I bet it's pretty good.
SPEAKER_02Um, the problem with preaching the same sermon at a lot of services, Nick, is if you don't like it, you're sunk. And it's just miserable. I and I you go into it never knowing is this gonna hit or not. Thankfully, this year it hit. It didn't hit as well as last year, uh, but it worked. I was uh I was excited by it. You you gotta be, you gotta want to preach it. You gotta be excited. You know, the old language for that, you gotta have a burden for what you're talking about. And uh so this year, yeah, it worked. It was good. And you know, it's that big opening sermon illustration that they're all looking for, you know. And uh so there we go.
SPEAKER_00Nice, nice, nice. I was I was happy with my sermon too. It came together at the at the end.
SPEAKER_02Oh yes, isn't that the thing? I think I just was pulling hair, you know, just pulling teeth, just trying to get it, you know, so it worked. Uh but yeah, and then you know, it you know, everyone says, Oh, you're gonna go home and take a nap. No, I was like just on a huge adrenaline rush. And then Monday morning came and I just crashed. I just was like, I didn't even expect to be that wiped out, but I was.
Michigan Wolverines Win National Basketball Championship
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't think I saw nine o'clock on Sunday night. I was out. But I Saturday night, I I don't I didn't sleep by Saturday night. I went to bed. I'm like, I don't have the sermon yet. I know it's in here, I know it's and then and then I laid down and it came to me, and it's like it's like, oh thank you, Jesus. There's there's the ending. That is great. That's how the muse works, though. That's fantastic. Wow. It's funny, yeah. But but uh so Easter was Sunday, and then Monday, Andy. I don't know if you know this, the Michigan Wolverines won the national championship in the basketball tournament.
SPEAKER_02I am so disappointed, I didn't watch. Uh I was so tuned out of March Madness. I was busy. Uh, but I'm super glad, Nick. Yeah, it's your team, your home state, your uh all that. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00It's it's who would have thought that uh Indiana, the basketball school, would win the football national championship, and Michigan, the football school, would win the basketball national championship in the same year.
SPEAKER_02I did not think of that. That is great. That is really good. That is really good.
The Book of Revelation
SPEAKER_00Well, Andy, today we are looking at Revelation 9. And can I just tell you something here?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what do you got?
SPEAKER_00Years ago, I was doing this podcast kind of as a solo venture uh because our schedules were having a hard day. So we had the other, anyway. And I was like, I'm gonna do a podcast on the book of Revelation. And I got to Revelation chapter eight and I stopped. And if you go back, like, you know, four years, there's Pastor Nick doing the first eight chapters, seven or eight chapters of Revelation, and then he stopped. And it's like, why did he stop? And now that we get to Revelation chapter nine, I remember this is why I stopped. Because Revelation chapter nine is like it's no fun. It's no fun at all. So, Andy, are you ready to go through this and uh talk about things that are uh well, we may have fun with it. And if you're listening, thank you for listening, and I hope you have fun with it. But uh we don't know the we don't know the answer to these questions, uh, and we're just gonna try. So uh you ready to jump in, Andy?
The Key to the Bottomless Pit
SPEAKER_02Uh Nick, you go ahead and start. I'm gonna do my best. You know, I'm like uh again, I'm not a fan of Revelation, uh, full disclosure. I it's like you should be a fan of every book of the Bible, right? But I I take uh some comfort in the fact that Luther wasn't a fan of every book. Luther had the canon within the canon, the books that matter more. He came around later to like Revelation more than he did at the front end uh like I've of his life, like I've previously said. But Nick, you you get us going here.
Locusts and the star
SPEAKER_00All right, verses one through four. And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. The bottomless pit, Andy. So he opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like a smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given authority like the authority of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to damage the grass of the earth or any green growth of any kind or any tree, but only those who do not have the seal of God on their forehead. So the star that falls from heaven and is given the key to the shaft to the bottomless pit in the shafts is smoke right. I mean, you it's almost like a Texas barbecue pit, right? You know, there's smoke rising and darkness, but then there's these locusts. So who is this star that falls from heaven? Uh I think most people associate him with Satan, and yet uh we don't like the idea of Satan being given the key to the bottomless pit because then Satan has authority over the bottomless pit. Uh, and so the key is given to this being at this certain specific time, specific purpose uh that furthers God's plan according to the book of Revelation. So this angel, evil or good, serves God's purposes in revelation. Uh so Andy, I don't really know. This this question I came up with, I don't really know if it's that good of a question or not, but uh is Satan hell's victim or is Satan hell's ruler or what's going on here? What thoughts do you have? I've got some thoughts, but uh I'd love to hear what you think. And actually, I'd really love for you to just uh tie this one up real in a nice clean bow and then we'll move on. So what do you got?
SPEAKER_02Okay, um, I will give us just kind of a general summary. Uh, because we're gonna be looking at the fifth and sixth trumpets, and they're talking about demonic locusts and a massive Calvary army and cavalry and uh to torment and killing unrepentant humanity, just so you know that's where we're going. And you know, survivors refuse to repent. That's kind of the big theme of this one. Um, under, you know, if we're interpreting these verses as they are, uh, you know, Satan is acting under God's sovereignty, executing judgment, um while restricted by, you know, particular heavenly, you know, boundaries. And so that's that's kind of what's happening here. Um pop culture depicts Satan as the king of hell who punishes souls. Okay. Uh it's interesting that Revelation 9 shows him as kind of a general leading an army of judgment. But again, the question becomes: is it within God's sovereign plan? Uh, you talked about the bottomless pit. You know, he's ruler of it, but eventually um we'll see later in Revelation that he becomes its prisoner. So uh Nick, I don't know if I'm answering the question directly, but that's kind of what I'm seeing here. What about you?
SPEAKER_00So, okay, so first off, who is the star? I think the assumption is that it's Satan. Other commentaries that I found have said that uh scholars believe that it's not Satan, actually, but um, some have said it could be Nero, some it could be Jesus himself or a good angel sent by God uh to open up the bottomless pit for the purpose of judgment. Um Andy, are you getting texts while we're doing this? Are you I am.
SPEAKER_02I turned off my ringer there.
SPEAKER_00Uh so it uh Andy's a popular fella, folks. Don't don't don't kid yourselves. This guy has always got things going on. Um and so it could be a good who we don't know who the star is. Uh so this is what I found is this is one that I found interesting, a theory that the but the the star is actually the word of God, the pit is human nature, and the lesson is that if the gospel is rejected, horrors are unleashed upon you.
SPEAKER_02Which um, Nick, I mean, anyone listening who's kind of outside the church, kind of outside the faith, kind of outside uh uh, you know, taking scripture uh, you know, I don't want to say literally, but having a high value on scripture. They're gonna just say, what kind of God of love is this? I mean, that is just always the question that's just kind of sitting out there. And uh so, but we'll continue on.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I thought you were gonna answer the question. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I'm not gonna answer the question because that's that's my question. But uh yeah, okay. We'll we'll get to that. I mean, that's part of the interpretation, the understanding of um Revelation. Short answer is go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Let's ask the question after the next reading.
The Locusts
SPEAKER_02Okay. Verses 7 to 12. In appearance, the locusts were like horses equipped for battle. On their heads were what looked like crowns of gold, their faces were like human faces, their hair like women's hair, their teeth like lion's teeth. They had scales like iron breastplates, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle. So I don't know if these are the beautiful people, Nick. Uh they have tails like scorpions with stingers, and in their tails is the power to harm people for five months. Just five months, that's it. They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name is Hebrew in Abaddon, and in Greek, he is called Apollyon. So uh the first woe has passed, and there's two, two, there are still two woes to come. All right, so let's get into this. So, what what is happening here? What are these things? So, scholars say the locusts are a visual representation of demons loosed upon the earth, and the basic idea is that part of the Great Tribulation, God will allow demonic hordes previously imprisoned to descend upon the earth like a swarm of destructive locusts. Those who have the seal of God on their foreheads are protected, but other people aren't. So, Nick, what does this tell us about God's control over demonic passages? And how should we read the passage in passages like this? I mean, Nick, should I be fearful? Should I be curious? I am curious. Should I be trusting? Uh, Nick, should I be something else?
SPEAKER_00I this is probably the text we should use for when we're trying to encourage people to get baptized. Okay, okay. Just in case the demons come, if you're, you know, if you've got the mark on your forehead, you're safe. Uh okay, so what do we do with this? Well, first off, locusts are agents of God's judgment. We get this back all the way in Exodus with the plagues in Egypt. And then Deuteronomy and 1 King, 2 Chronicles, Joel, Amos, locusts show up a lot in the Bible. Uh so but what's interesting and what's important to remember is that these locusts, these demons, these whatever you want to call them, are restricted in what they can do. They uh uh God gives them authority to do things, but that's limited. They can only affect certain people, they can torment, but they can't kill, they can only be there for five months and then they have to leave. Uh and so this is not chaos, it's controlled judgment by God. Um and they act at God's command. Um they they they go where God tells them to do, they they go where God tells them to go, they do what God tells them to do. Uh and um, you know, for it has to be said according to this that this evil thing serves God's purposes in some way. Um and I think you know this echoes the story of Job where Satan can only act within God's permission, Satan can only do things with according to God's approval, and um and so I think what we find is that um these forces are on a leash. And how are we supposed to read this, Andy? I think this is how we're supposed to read this. I think we're supposed to read this in such a way that first century Christians who are going were having a very difficult time with persecution and other things, um, or who were having to be hidden because of the Roman, having to hide themselves because the idea here is that the enemies of God are going to be defeated by God, and the people of God uh should find comfort in that. So we should we we need not fear the demons. They are actually on our side. That's what's important to hear. These demons are on our side and they are being sent to protect us from our enemies. Uh, and so I think we read them and we the the the mind goes to, well, am I on God's side or not? Are these demons coming for me? And I think we we need to recognize that no, these demons are on God's side and they are coming to protect us. Uh you know, it's easy to get lost in the in the imagery here, uh, but I think that that what what John is trying to tell the the Christians who are struggling with with life and with persecution and all the other things, we as we went through the uh seven letters to the churches, that the people who are being persecuted, um, this is good news to them that God's army is coming and they will be on your side. They will they will not harm you, but they will hurt those who are coming against you. Uh Andy, what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_02So Nick, I'm hearing you're right, it's not a horror movie. So this is not a horror movie, and we're not the victim. Uh, but we're, you know, we're kind of on we're on the winning side, and uh we have the winning general. Is that a fair summary?
SPEAKER_00It we yeah, but you it's it's uh you may want to turn your eyes for avert your eyes from what's going on, right? Oh, yeah. Um I don't I it's it's it's it's it's not pretty. It's not pretty. You have anything to add, or are you good? And he's just smiling and nodding. All right.
SPEAKER_02You know, there are people historically I've heard stories of people on hallucinogenic drugs really like revelation, Nick. I mean, if you like graphic imagery, if you like, you know, mind-blowing sort of you know stuff, this would be uh your your deal here.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, I I I I'm not on hallucinic drugs, and I don't really like this. I don't know about you. I'm on Fruit Loops this morning. That's what I had for breakfast. Fruit loops.
SPEAKER_02So Fruit Loops.
SPEAKER_00Feeled by Fruit Loops.
SPEAKER_02I'm still on cold meds in uh Zycam. How's that? So I was coffee. I'm having uh heavy French press, uh dark roast, uh cubano, or is it cubano or cubano? I don't even know how to uh describe it. Coffee. I figured I'm gonna yeah, it's like pretty strong.
For those who are sick
SPEAKER_00So uh that's great. I hope it's working for you. You do sound a little stuffy. Okay. Maybe what you need is a trip to Texas to clear yourself out.
Revelation 13: To Kill a Third of Mankind
SPEAKER_02I I would come to Texas in a minute. If I can get another pastor on this staff uh to babysit the place when I go, that would be uh uh go visiting, that would be good. But uh uh but that is another topic, Nick. We're on uh verses 13 to 15.
SPEAKER_00I don't know if you could tell, but I am looking for other topics this morning.
unknownThat's right.
SPEAKER_00All right, verses 13. Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the horns of the golden altar before God saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates. So the four angels were released, who had been held ready for the hour, the day, the month, and the year. To Andy, what are they doing? They are going to kill a third of mankind. To kill a third of humankind, it says. Okay. So a third to kill a third of humankind. Um, these four angels have no necessary connection with the four angels of Revelation 7. They may be the same four angels or maybe not. But whoever they are, they're prepared for the unleashing of this judgment and have the authority to kill on a massive scale, a third of humankind. So how do we wrestle with the scale of judgment described here, Andy? What do we do with this? What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_02The first thought that comes to mind is we can be sympathetic, really, to people who throughout the history of Christianity have thought that the signs in Revelation are coming true in their time right now. It's really interesting to me that often when people are retired, often at the end of life, especially, uh, they see the signs all around them. I mean, if you just take our specific context, there's a war happening, and regardless of what you feel about the war, uh the subject at hand is nuclear weapons and what those could do uh either regionally or you know, worldwide. And I mean, it's you know, those sorts of things could literally kill a third of humankind. Um so I mean it's it's realistic to be concerned and to, you know, to be looking for uh some of these signs. Uh my take on that has always been that people are always using these signs to kind of predict the end and then they never happen. Um a bigger picture understanding of this is, you know, God's sovereignty uh over history and judgment. And and what these verses are kind of moving us toward is to trust God's timing uh to find our security in God and urgently share the gospel. Um, you know, I was joking about, you know, kind of, you know, the hordes of demons and all of that earlier, not quite joking, but sort of like, you know, having difficulty taking it completely seriously. But the truth is, you mentioned persecution. Truth is, much of the church worldwide has historically always been under persecution. And what is crazy about that is that the church usually grows under circumstances of persecution. Um where am I hearing this? I mean, the church growing in China. The other day, someone was uh speculating that based on the numbers they had seen, that there was a day coming when Christianity might be the, you know, the dominant religion in China of all places, where they thought Christianity would die fast after all the missionaries were kicked out. Uh lots of stories like that throughout history. Um so again, but what do we take from this? We trust God's timing, uh, we find our security in God, and we urgently share the gospel. And I imagine that, you know, anytime we're under any sort of fear or what we would perceive as persecution, what we really do, man, we begin praying fast. So um you you can say that it's accurate in that sense. Nick, what what's your take?
A Third of the Trinity
SPEAKER_00Well, my take, and it kind of goes back to what you said about 10 minutes ago, I think it's okay. okay to say I don't like this. It's okay to be a Christian and read this and say I I just really don't like this. I I d there's that this just doesn't that this isn't consistent with the God that I understand through Jesus. But I think I think it we also read this and it's important to read this and know that God is in control. This isn't this isn't destruction for the sake of destruction. It's not uh uh you know genocide for or or anything along those lines. It's it's it's God is in control. Uh evil's not running wild. Uh it you know if it is if there is evil in the world that is coming up from the bottomless pit it's it's doing so under God's authority, uh I guess, approval however you want to say that. And it's limited by God. It's limited by God by uh you know there's only certain things that they can do. Again, I don't like this. I think what's important to say again this isn't God's first move, right? It's a response. You know that there have been warning upon warning that we've gone through seals, trumpets, calls repentance, all those things. It's not a God, you know, we we do not believe in a God who is quick to destroy, but a God who is patient, has been patient, and is now, if anything, is confronting a persistent rebellion here. Rebellion that just will not stop. We started a new series last night a Bible study series at Abiding Grace on the judges. And there is this cycle of of the people continuing to forget about what God has done for them and then acting out in rebellion and then God coming you know God of them being oppressed. God uh having the people taken away or you know the moment last night we studied how the Moabites for 18 years uh and and then the people turn to God and say please help us and God provides a deliverer. But I think finally we need to hold hold this in our minds alongside the cross and view this through the lens of the cross. We don't interpret judgment without without Jesus and so the same God who judges us is the is the same God who entered our world in Jesus who suffers with us and for us on the cross takes judgment upon himself and so God is not distant from judgment. God has taken judgment upon himself on the cross and so you know I think that that that that has to be part of the story. And and Andy I just had this thought as I was putting this together I just want to run this by you. So far we've gone through revelation and so much of the devastation has been a third right a third of the plants a third of the a third of all the things now a third of all the people do we think that there's anything that goes along with like when Jesus died on the cross a third of the Trinity died and so this is retribution a third for a third is that that's just kind of the thought I don't I don't I haven't really spent too much time thinking that way but but I wonder if that's part of kind of the um the equation here the mathematics the the I any any thoughts on that any any thoughts on anything I've said or would you like to talk about brisket? We can talk about barbecue all year.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome. By the way the men at Abiding Grace have fantastic brisket I took pictures of your uh you know your big ovens out there thinking it'd be cool for our church to have we don't quite have the weather year round for that this was this we this Saturday it was uh 90 I I think it was 90 slabs of ribs.
SPEAKER_00Wow wow and and the ribs were so good Andy and and then there was uh ham it was so good.
SPEAKER_02Nick Sunday I'm gonna join your church for uh the cooking for the ribs for the food that you guys make up that would be awesome.
SPEAKER_00You can join as associate member anytime send us your offerings.
The Number of Soldiers of Calvary
SPEAKER_02Okay. That's awesome. We don't have associate members Nick we you got to be uh all in or nothing. And uh okay um I think Nick that you're nailing kind of the big idea here which is the whole story of God's history is God calling us to repentance. And again repentance sounds like this big uh churchy word it sounds like you know often people interpret it as merely saying sorry really there's movement involved turning back turning around turning toward our understandings of that. So if we move into verses 16 to 19 Nick says this verse 16 the number of troops of cavalry was 200 million Nick I heard their number and this was how I saw the horses in my vision. The riders were breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. And the number of okay so Nick this is what we're looking the number is 200 million. Is it literal is it symbolic is it an army of men? Is this an army of demons? Nick is this 200 million demons uh coming at you or protecting us or however we interpret it so what what's your take Nick?
SPEAKER_00I don't even know if there were 200 million people on the planet when this was written I I mean it just when you when you think about the scope of World War II I've read that like the the total number of combatants involved in World War II was somewhere around 70 million. So if you're thinking about the amount of people who fought in World War II times that by three and that's the army that you get that's that that's coming. I think this is just a number beyond uh beyond understanding it it's you you can't I mean imagine two thirds of the United States going to war right it's uh you just can't even you can't even fathom such a large army I mean you it's so big that it would take over how how much space would 200 million people take over it just it it's but I think we have to remember that this is apocalyptic language it's symbolic uh intensified imagery to communicate God's truth and uh and the point isn't the math or the numbers it's it's the point is that there is uh judgment is going to come and it's gonna be severe that sin has a global impact um and that evil has consequences on a massive scale so uh whether it's literal or symbolic the message is clear sin is not small neither are its effects and we all need to be wary of you know we we need to be aware of our sins and we need to do our best to sin less to s to try and not sin um but uh but but I think that you know this this idea of 200 million an army of 200 million um you know I that wouldn't it be funny if they all came and they had Detroit lions helmets uh on their uh um the heads of the horses were like lions heads that uh but uh you know I it's uh to me it's symbolic and it's intensified and um you know I think the point is this that that if God wants to wipe off the face of the earth that God can, God has the power to do so. Uh and um and we should all try to sin, you know, sin no more. But I don't know. What are you thinking, Andy?
SPEAKER_02Well just uh direct answers to the questions. You know Nick I'm so good at that answering all the questions very directly um is it uh literal or symbolic it's apocalyptic literature so my take is symbolic and uh 200 demons or 200 humans and I think that my read of the text is it's demonic.
SPEAKER_00So yeah but you know the thing that bothers me about this is that John is the same guy who wrote first John who said that Jesus Christ is the atoning sacrifice not just for our sins but for the sins of the whole of the whole world. And so you know the John is writing this like because of sin God is going to bring an army of 200 million and he's gonna wipe out a third of the earth and oh by the way Jesus is the atoning sacrifice not just for our sins but the sins of the whole world. So it's it it's John um writing things that aren't consistent with what John is writing. When someone writes two different things uh when the same person writes two different things are we supposed to assume or take by faith that both of those things have come from God because it's it's it it seems very contradictory and um and I think that it's right to question it. It's right to question it because uh we I to me this just um you know we're talking about sin on a massive scale and the the consequences of sin and yet John says our sins are forgiven. So what do we do with it?
Revelation 8: Rejection of the Atoning Message
SPEAKER_02Nick I think you're naming an important interpretive um um approach there um often I remember going way back when I was pastor in Florida in '92 when uh there were people that would come to a Bible study that I was part of and said everything in the Bible has got to be in harmony. Everything is in harmony there are no contradictions there are no and I mean the Bible is 66 books you know inspired by God but written by many different humans at different times with different uh approaches and you're never going to find, in my opinion, that particular harmony and secondly our interpretation at least in our um you know little you know tribe so to speak uh you know uh denomination you might say uh I hate that word because it brings so much baggage but we tend to view scripture as inspired not as inerrant and for some people that's a major problem but there's a lot of freedom in there and Luther sort of exemplified that in my opinion uh in in you know again his canon within the canon that there's some books, some phrases, some teachings that uh outweigh other ones. I mean uh everything hinges on the resurrection. You know, we celebrated that last Sunday and you've already named that uh in this podcast, I think. And so there's some things that are super crucial and then there are other things that it's okay if we they're not essential is what I'm saying. And uh so this is not essential? There are aspects of it you know that you know symbolic or literal I don't see as essential to the gospel. But I think it is uh you named this early on and I thought it was very helpful that you know regardless of what we think it is important to, you know, take attempts at understanding and realizing what Revelation is saying because so many people will say but it says in Revelation it says this, therefore, and come to all kinds of conclusions about and it's very popular again I've used the example the Left Behind series, um you know the rapture all of that what people don't necessarily understand about the rapture. They figure if someone's talking about it, it must have always been around for Christianity. But my understanding is it's relatively new doctrine theory that people have brought up only in the last 150 years or so.
SPEAKER_00So Nick But I I do think that the reason for bringing up the contradiction is because what John is saying in in 1 John is that all of these people the ones who don't have the mark on their forehead the ones there they are forgiven as well because Jesus is the atoning sacrifice not just for our sins but for the whole sins the sins of the whole world which makes me want to say what are we doing here then John I mean which one did you write first? Which one did you write last? Which one which one did you actually believe um because uh you know it may so maybe maybe we shouldn't be studying Revelation maybe I I don't know I it's just anyway all right verses 20 and 21 the rest of humankind who were not killed by these plagues did not repent of the works of their hands or give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood which cannot see or hear or walk and they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their prostitution or their thefts so in general humankind shows no repentance despite a hundred a third of the earth being killed by an army of two hundred million the rest of the world the rest of the world just went back to business as usual right uh you know so will the people of earth not realize what is happening and why it's happening or will they know and refuse to repent anyway? Will they see this and just be like meh whatever I you know our our world has seen its share of murders and sexual immorality and theft and and you know lies and all that other stuff and you know I don't know what I I'm reminded of a um I'm reminded of a story from seminary one of my seminary professors said he said that he visited someone in in in his congregation a child an adult child of one of their members who had been in a coma for like uh three weeks and and this this young man had he said that he woke up from the coma and he had been walking through like um like just inches of mud and he was just been in the worst place ever and he it was just like like he described what hell would be like right he's been in hell for the last three weeks and now he's awakened from this coma and so my professor who was a pastor of time said what do you think that means are you gonna change the way you live he goes no he says it means I know what I have go I I know what I have in front of me so I'm gonna have as much fun as I can before I get there. So you you can have this vision of you know there's time to change but you know just or you can take it as I know what it's going to be like and uh I might as well just keep doing what I'm doing and enjoy it as much as I can while I can.
SPEAKER_02I don't know what are you thinking Andy Well I think that you're what you're saying is that someone who basically refuses to repent and we covered the meaning of the word repent earlier. And you know we also talk about idolatry in this passage. I think you know really idolatry leading to envy is really the great American sin. And we we live a life where we're not persecuted and in many most settings we don't live in fear of so many things that are identified in this passage, although there are many that do. So you know we basically what I'm saying is we cling to our idols and we choose rebellion over God's mercy. And again this is a call to seek and ask for God's mercy, which I think in general is a an excellent interpretive lens that we just bring to scripture. God is calling us uh to something better something different but it it starts and is primary uh through a relationship with him as opposed to uh works of course and the rest of it Nick yeah amen starts with a relationship with him but um you know I I don't I'm gonna just say it again I don't like Revelation 9.
SPEAKER_00I didn't like Revelation eight um I mean I always enjoy having a conversation with you Andy but uh um I I it's weird and I it's it's inconsistent in many ways with what what what I believe and um and and I you know maybe it is just a a dream that a guy had and he woke up and wrote down his dream and um you know I think I think the seven letters to the seven churches is helpful but I don't know if this is helpful. I I don't know if this is helpful at all for anybody who's a Christian today.
SPEAKER_02That's great. Nick um let maybe that's the value in it though and you've named this as well I think is um that we're seeing that maybe contradiction is probably the wrong word but inconsistencies or different takes, different interpretations within scripture maybe that is one of the helpful pieces learning what to do with that and how to interpret that and it also shows us I think that a literal view of scripture because of some of those inconsistencies is really hard to maintain. And I think that often what I found people have a, you know, I value a high view of scripture we value God's word but when you value it all equally when you have an inerrant or literal view of scripture it's it's difficult to you know be consistent in the interpretation of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Revelation 9: The Grace Abides Podcast
SPEAKER_00Sorry go ahead. Inevitably people are cherry picking which is what they accuse people who are not uh of the inerrant literal uh viewpoint of doing but the truth is everybody's doing it we have certain things that we lift up more than others you're talking about scripture you're cherry picking because you're choosing one over another Nick Yeah so exactly and and when we're talking about Revelation versus 1 John two books written by the same guy we believe um and so which one do you like? Which one which one do you lift up? Which one do you base your theology on? Well it's not it's not that I like first John better but but I'm looking at it through the lens of Jesus the gospels tell us who Jesus was and what Jesus was like and then you look at Revelation and you look at first John and you say to yourself which one reflects Jesus which one seems to reflect Jesus in a more clear way well first John does. First John reflects the the the values of Jesus the things that Jesus said the things that Jesus did uh more than Revelation it there is no part of the four gospels where you get the get the idea that Jesus is going to send an army of 200 million to wipe out a third of the earth there they're just that verse isn't there it's not included in the gospels. Jesus didn't say say stuff like that uh and so that's why I prefer the first John version of of you know God and and uh and and the way things are going to happen in the future and so you know this to me is again again if if if if if we're gonna read it let's read it but let's read it from from the and remember that these the army coming is on your side because God is on your side and you're on God's side uh and they are coming to um uh to fight against those who would mean you harm and that's you know if if we're gonna get anything from this get that that you know whatever is going to come it is going to come to protect you against those who would do you harm amen so let's stop there Andy let's Revelation nine in the keep going on Revelation 9. We could uh I'm sorry again let's just tear it out of the book right like Good Poet Society. We don't need it anymore. We've studied it we've talked about it we've done that you know we we can go on with the rest of our lives now and never have never have to worry about it again.
SPEAKER_01All right Nick thank you have a fantastic day thank you for listening everyone take good care of yourselves podcast with Nick and Andy thanks for being with us