Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Join Pastors Nick Billardello and Andy Romstad as they teach the Christian faith in a relevant and relatable way. They also talks about other stuff.
Grace Abides with Nick & Andy
Revelation 10 - Much Better than Revelation 9!
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Nick & Andy explore Rev. 10 including...
+ Pastoral care for losers
+ 6 Things to Remember about Revelation (Chad Bird)
+ Why chapter 10 is better.
+ Not a "Timeline of Terror"
+ Why Revelation can feel like "visiting a foreign country w/o knowing the language"
Intro & outro Song: Everyday-Routine-Blues (144288 / Pixabay) by Won Jong Hwa. Published with permission.
Stinger Music: Jazzy Memories by Musinova via Pixabay
The word that comes to mind for me is universal, that uh it's ongoing, that we are to be, you know, kind of relentless about it. It's kind of like uh, you know, so many churches are like, well, we're here if they need us, you know, and kind of, well, this is what who we are, this is what we do. That's method. And the method is not your mission. Your mission is to reach people. Your mission is to bring the gospel to the world. Your mission is to figure out how you can, you know, be the hands and feet of Christ, you know, not just in doing and serving, but in sharing the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Pastoral Care for Losers
SPEAKER_00Hey everybody, thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's word one chapter at a time. Happy Wednesday, everybody. It's the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy. Andy, how are you doing today?
SPEAKER_01Nick, I'm doing awesome. Just doing great. How are you?
SPEAKER_00I'm doing well. I'm doing much better now that my Detroit Tigers have left Minnesota.
SPEAKER_01That was awesome. I texted Nick to just uh share with him that the twins at that time had won three out of four games who were winning the fourth game. And, you know, it's just sharing with him in his grief and, you know, his experiences of loss, helping him know that pastoral care is available for losers. And uh losers.
SPEAKER_00There you go. That's the tagline. Pastoral care is available for losers. Good job, Andy.
SPEAKER_01Today's lesson. Although you had a fantastic response. Uh, you want to share that?
SPEAKER_00Or yeah, baseball should not be played in Arctic areas. What was it? 30 degrees in Minnesota last week.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's just cold. And historically, uh, our family, we go to the first twins game, you know, usually sometime in late April, and we bring parkas and blankets, and we sit, you know, under the overhang if we're lucky. It used to be tickets for Mally's work. So uh uh Arctic is you know close.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, every time the every time the players made contact with the ball, I could just see how much their hands hurt. Every time the bat hit the ball, and my hands hurt for them. So that's empathy. Hurting when you see someone else hurting, hurting with them. So there you go.
SPEAKER_01We'll have to we'll have to you'll have to teach me about that sometime. Pastoral empathy. That'd be that'd be good. That'd be good. That's the uh uh that was the joke at this church. Somebody called once and said, Could I talk to a pastor who cares? Well, Pastor Andy is here, and uh well, is there anyone else?
SPEAKER_00Andy, I have really good news. What's that? We are we're done with Revelation chapter 9.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that is good news.
SPEAKER_00I'm very Revelation 10 is better. So Revelation 10 is gonna go. But I what I've heard is that are there some folks at Cambridge Lutheran who use our podcast, our study of revelation for their Bible study? Is that what you were talking about?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, isn't that neat? And they're doing the Revelation one, and I was thinking, oh, bummer, man, they're doing Revelation. But uh yeah, I think it's great that they're interested. Yeah, so they're using our podcast as the basis for their uh Bible study small groups, more accurate term. And and they have somebody who takes portions of the podcast, breaks it down into, I don't know, two, three portions, and then they listen to a portion of the podcast, they talk about it, listen to another one, talk about it. So it's kind of cool.
SPEAKER_00That's incredible. So are they taking down like uh they're they're they're taking our podcast and they're dividing it up uh into different um different audio clips. Is that what they're doing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and by the way, if anyone's listening, I have begun adding chapters with titles uh to our podcast, which is kind of a neat feature that just is easy to do.
6 Things to Remember When Studying Revelation
SPEAKER_00So awesome. Now I I know you I think you follow on Facebook uh Lutheran uh seminar. I think he's Lutheran, like a uh scholar named Chad Byrd.
SPEAKER_01I do follow Chad Byrd. Did you see very Lutheran?
SPEAKER_00Very yesterday he uh he star he's starting a study of the book of Revelation. He came out with six things to keep in mind when studying Revelation. Did you see that?
SPEAKER_01No, I did not. Fill me in.
SPEAKER_00Are you ready? Okay. Number one, read it as a vision, not a video. So it's not a strict chronological sequence. Don't don't don't think that the things that we're doing are supposed to be in any kind of chronological sequence. That's what he says. Number two, revelation is not meant to confuse you, but to reveal. So it's not meant to confuse, but to reveal. So there's an unveiling. Something hidden is now made known. That's the purpose of the book of Revelation.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that's good.
SPEAKER_00Revelation is apocalyptic and therefore symbolic.
SPEAKER_01Okay, that's that's a key point. I resonate with that one.
SPEAKER_00It belongs. So he says it belongs to a unique genre that communicates through signs and vivid imagery. Um so God is teaching us through imagery.
unknownGood.
SPEAKER_01Number four. Very vivid.
SPEAKER_00Very vivid. Know your old testament. Ah, yeah. Revelation is saturated with the old testament. So they say that 278 of the 404 verses in the book of Revelation allude to the Old Testament.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, that's good, but I mean that's Chad Byrd's deal, is he's an Old Testament scholar. So is Luther, I guess. But everything in the New Testament he compares to the Old Testament. I mean, you like that. You know that I'm not either the biggest fan of the Old Testament either.
SPEAKER_00No, but look, I want to quote the this is his quote. He said, without that background, meaning the Old Testament, much of the book will feel like you are visiting a foreign country without knowing the language or culture.
SPEAKER_01Okay. That's really good. Really good insight.
SPEAKER_00Isn't that good?
SPEAKER_01Excellent.
SPEAKER_00Uh number five, do not turn it into a timeline of terror. Don't worry about charts. And to the it was given the the the he said that misses its purpose. It was given to comfort a church under persecution, to strengthen believers who were tempted to compromise, and to call them to repentance and faith.
SPEAKER_01I think the end is near, Nick. I think you know, students at Lutheran high schools don't even need to do their homework anymore. I mean, there's no point.
Chad Bird on Jesus Victory
SPEAKER_00You know, there were there were days. There were days going to Lutheran High School where I wanted to walk in on Monday and tell my pre my my teacher, but you said the end was near, so I didn't think it needed to be done. That's awesome. And then finally, focus on Jesus and his victory.
SPEAKER_01Okay. That's good. Jesus wins. Is that his point?
SPEAKER_00Jesus, he says, this is the revelation of Jesus Christ. If our reading drifts away from him, we've missed the point.
SPEAKER_01All right. So Jesus wins, kind of like twins versus tigers. That's kind of uh right.
SPEAKER_00Not just Jesus wins, Andy.
SPEAKER_01Jesus sweeps. Okay. Sweeps. That's good. Well, that is that's good news. That's good news.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I thought that was really interesting. I thought that was really good, really well summarized, and I knew that you're a Chad Bird guy, so I I figured you would have seen it and you would you would have said, Hey, let's talk about that. But I'm glad I can bring something to your ticket. Knowing how busy you are, knowing texting others about your Minnesota twins, that you that is uh yeah, man.
SPEAKER_01I've been gone since quarter to seven this morning, so I am busy. But uh like, aren't we all? I mean, we're all busy. Ministry, there's always something to do. But uh yeah, I'm a big fan of Chad Bird. In fact, I listen to Chad when I just want to check, make sure I'm still Lutheran on something. You know, he's I call him one of the hyper Lutherans. He he will just he's very Lutheran. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you can find Chad Byrd on Facebook and follow him. And he usually every day, or most days, he he posts something and it's very uh theologically sound, very Lutheran, good stuff. Learned a lot from Chad Byrd. And uh if he says something, if he says something I disagree with, he's one of those few people who, if they say something I disagree with, I I check myself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. You know, I and if people are looking for him, I think he's we have 1517.org. And Nick, at the beginning of the year, I think I've shared with this with you before, we encourage people to either use the UVersion app, even if it's one Bible verse a day. Uh, or secondly, if they want old school to get into a one-year Bible, just read the New Testament portion, Nick, is what I told them. Old Testament is a little long. And or if they want something deeper and more extensive, to go to 1517.org, which I think has the uh daily readings. You can do your daily readings online, and then they have video explanations of those. And I think Chad Bird is one of the people that does some of those. So, yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Andy has a real high view of the Old Testament, folks. That's right.
SPEAKER_01Uh and on my view of the Old Testament, uh, and some of the people in that small group, I think, have gone through the course I led a number of years ago on the book Irresistible by Andy Stanley, which I found really helpful, just to be serious, about uh what portions of the Old Testament, you know, really apply to us today, and what portions uh uh are old covenant that have been replaced by new covenant teachings from Jesus. And the, you know, the easy example of that is Jesus would say, You have heard it say, said, but I say unto you. So Nick.
The New Testament and women in ministry
SPEAKER_00So can I ask you? Because last I'm leading a uh a study on the Old Testament right now on Tuesday nights. We've done David and Moses, and now we're doing judges. That's good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Big, big and we did a study on the book of uh uh Judges 4 last night, the story of Deborah.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00The the amazing judge who led the people of Israel to victory over Sisera and the Canaanites. She was a religious leader, she was a political leader, and she was a she led the military. She was a military leader. And so we have this wonderful judge of the Old Testament who's this great military, religious, political leader. People of Israel follow her, they see her as sent by God, ordained by God to lead them. And this is 3,000 years ago, and yet somehow, because of the New Testament, there's congregations and churches and denominations around this country and around the world who won't have women as leaders.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, isn't that fascinating, Nick? I mean, that's uh, you know, that's one of the difficulties in interpreting scripture is you can cherry-pick verses and take them in isolation. And uh, if anyone is curious on that, what is the uh the Lutheran response to no women in ministry? One of the New Testament stories is the story of Lydia. Paul goes, starts a new church. Uh Lydia is a business leader, a dealer in purple cloth. That would have been a larger uh, you know, big money business in that day. And she is left in charge of the church, and she was open to Paul's presence, open to the gospel, and he saw in her leadership gifts and gave her the uh, you know, leadership of the church, if I'm remembering right. Nick, correct anything, I'm off on that.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, and the reason why purple cloth was important was because it was the color of kings. So people like to wear purple because it meant, I mean, it's the equivalent of wearing the the most designer thing you can find today. Uh and so, yeah, she was a leader of the church.
SPEAKER_01And well, you and I I can relate to that. We're kind of designer clothes people, wouldn't you say?
SPEAKER_00Is that right. Whatever we can get at Costco on on sale.
Paul on the Women of the Bible
SPEAKER_01You know me too well. Okay.
SPEAKER_00So my my thought, so we asked the question last night. Um, when you see Paul in heaven, are you gonna and you ask him, why would you write that when we have the story of when we have Lydia and when we have the story of Deborah and all those things. And my guess is Paul's gonna say, Yeah, I didn't know that was gonna make it into the Bible. I didn't think that was gonna be scripture when I wrote it.
SPEAKER_01Could be that, absolutely. One of the other interpretations of that verse that I've heard, and this is also a helpful piece, is that verses need to be read in their own context.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01And if I heard once on that particular passage, I'm shooting from the hip here some, that there were particular behaviors that were happening in that early church, uh which just happened to be by these women, that um uh this that particular verse was a response to in that context instead of a general universal principle. And that's one of the interpretive um, you know, lenses you want to read through. Is this, you know, in a particular context or is this a universal principle?
SPEAKER_00And context is so important.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, we've gone 11 minutes. We have ready to jump into Revelation chapter. Sorry, I liked it. Took us on a little uh rabbit trail there, but uh That's okay. Revelation chapter 10. Andy, this is gonna be better. This is gonna be better than last week. Anything's gonna be better than last week, but this is last week. If you listened to all of last week, God bless you. Thank you so much for listening.
SPEAKER_01Oh, on that note, Nick, I was we got a we you know we get an email report every week. Somebody we had like what's it 220, 210 plus downloads of the podcast uh last week, and I think it was the week before last, uh two or three weeks ago, we had it was uh almost I think it was 270. I mean, uh somebody is listening to us, so that's kind of fun.
The Rainbow and Pillar of Fire in the Old Testament
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thank you for listening. Thank you for and uh if you let if you w listened last week and thought, well, I don't know if this podcast is for me, it's gonna get better. Okay. Revelation nine was rough. I mean, that just it was rough. Uh Revelation 10 is better. So let's get let's jump right in, Andy. Are you ready? Yes. Verse one the mighty angel. And I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud with a rainbow over his head, his face was like the sun, and his legs like pillar of fire. So, Andy, what details about this mighty angel? Some have said that this is Michael, the angel Michael, stand out to you. We have the rainbow, we have fire, we have cloud, we have uh pillars of fire, face like the sun. What stands out to you and what might these symbolize about God's authority and presence? What do you think?
SPEAKER_01Uh the two that kind of strike me, and by the way, I think it's really helpful for us, uh, you know, and this ties into your Chad Bird comment about knowing the Old Testament. It is really helpful for us, I think, to um, you know, try and figure out what these words mean to dig into the symbolism behind them for the exact reason that you named, that there are ties that we don't uh automatically see to other portions of scripture. But I think, you know, rainbow is important, signifies God's faithfulness, kind of a bridge uh between heaven and earth. That's what the rainbow does, both symbolically and uh literally when you see a rainbow. And pillars of fire, Nick, those are always fun. Um symbolize, I mean, and this is something I think that's under, you know, represented in the church today, but the the purifying holiness, maybe it's our Lutheran tradition, but the holiness of God, the purifying, you know, being in awe of who God is and the unshakable kind of sovereign authority of God, uh, you know, I don't think that we really, that's that's always not a predominant part of our understanding of who God is, at least is how I hear it expressed. So I could go on, Nick. There are passages in Genesis and Ezekiel that kind of tie into these, but what's your take?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think a lot of what you mentioned, but but the idea of a cloud, right? God is associated with the cloud. Um, God's presence is there in the clouds. That's Exodus transfiguration, when Jesus is transfigured, a cloud comes over them. Uh the rainbow is is it it connects heaven, but it's also God's God's mercy, right? Genesis 9, uh God uh places his bow in the clouds, and and the the rainbow is a presence of uh or is a symbol of a present symbol to remind us of God's promise not to um to flood the earth again. Uh face like the sun. I mean, you know, this is this is the the transfiguration, right? When Jesus is transformed, he be his face becomes uh shines very bright. And so I mean this all it's all script, the pillar of fire, uh, purification, judgment, but also when the Israelites were were fleeing the the Egyptians, what what stood between the Egyptians and the Israelites but a pillar of fire? Uh and so that goes back to Exodus. Uh and it's just I I think together we take this, together we take this as a picture of God's authority breaking into the world. God is present everywhere, sovereign over everything. Uh, and it you know, it it tells us what God is like. It's a reminder that of what God is like, that God is the because of the rainbow, we are reminded that God is a God of mercy, because of the face like the sun, we remember that God is holy and righteous, uh, and and and glore, you know, God is worthy to be glorified. And then the the the the pillars of fire that God is strength, God is protection, God is all those things that that that we need, that that we need God to be. Uh, and so I think this is just uh an incre I really after Revelation 9, starting Revelation 10, getting this image, it it's it's a comforting image is image for God's people. I think that's uh definitely a comforting image for God's people.
SPEAKER_01So a comforting image, Nick, and don't forget the biblical story about how at the end of the rainbow there's a pot of gold. I'm forgetting the reference on that one, but do you know that reference?
SPEAKER_00I thought it was a box of lucky charms.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, okay. Uh, you know, just to add one more biblical story. Uh the Ezekiel talks about the fiery appearance of glory, uh, the mighty angel, uh, and that has both fire and rainbow. And but but just to um tie up my last comment, I do think, you know, people see a rainbow, and you know, culturally it's the pot of gold, the end of the rainbow. Wouldn't it be cool if we thought of a biblical reference, a biblical idea when we saw a rainbow, just like we talked about now, be it either God's faithfulness, you know, you think of the ark, or you think of the bridge between heaven and earth. I I kind of like that. We should be teaching our kids those symbols.
SPEAKER_00Love that. Love that. Every time you see it, think of God being a God of grace.
SPEAKER_01Good. Let's move on, chapter 10, verses two to four. So he held a little scroll open in his hand, setting his right foot on the sea and his left foot on land, he gave a great shout like a lion roaring. And when he shouted, the seven thunders sounded. And when the seven thunders had sounded, I was about to write, but I heard a voice from heaven saying, Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down. Okay, Nick, don't write it down. So God reveals something to John, then tells him, Don't write it, don't write this. So, how do you respond to that idea that maybe not everything is meant for Nick to know? Does that challenge you, uh, comfort you? What are you thinking?
SPEAKER_00I'm reminded of back to the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 29, 29. You can probably quote this from the top of your mind, right, Andy? Okay, of course. The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever. So there are things that God keeps for God, right? We we um God is not obligated to reveal everything to you, right? Some things belong to God alone, and we don't need to know everything because there are things about God that are beyond our capacity to understand. And I think that's okay. That comforts me. If there were if God was a God who I could understand completely, that would bother me, right? I like the idea that God is bigger than me, that God is bigger than my capacity to understand. Uh so then revelation, the revelation that is given to me, is given to me for the edification of my faith. It's not given to me so that I can control the story of God, right? So that I can control God. Right? I I am not a puppeteer and God is not my puppet, right? Revelation is given to me for faith, and that comforts me a lot. It doesn't challenge me that there are things that I don't know. It doesn't challenge me that there are things that God said you're not ready to know. That's okay with me. I'm good with that. There are mysteries that I don't know and I'm okay with that, but I'm comforted by the fact that God has revealed enough to me that I have faith and that my faith grows, and that uh as I go through life, God continues to reveal more as through the work of the Holy Spirit. Um, and and really this revelation for me is a revelation of the depths of love that God has for me and for humanity, um, as opposed to the the judgment that you know I the more I know about God, the it the more uh I look forward to being in God's presence and the less I'm afraid of it. So what are your thoughts, Andy?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I like I like what you're saying. I think one of the themes that is present there that you named is the mystery of God, what we could also call the hiddenness of God. Uh God has made himself known, but there's also the mystery, the hiddenness. If you look at the three major church kind of uh expressions in the world, if not merely the United States, you have uh kind of you have, let's say you have cat Catholicism, Protestantism, and Pentecostalism. And it, you know, the hiddenness of God, the mystery of God is often biggest in the Catholic Church. And it was brought to my attention years ago by uh uh the person who wrote up on natural church development. I'm forgetting uh his first name, but he did a uh a global study of the churches, the expression of the churches, what was what what was present in thriving churches, what was uh not present in churches that were declining. And he talked about the different expressions of the three churches. And he said in Catholicism, uh often one of the big pieces is mystery, the hiddenness of God, that we do not know all things. God invites us into God's presence, but we still don't know, or, you know, there's a hiddenness, a mystery to it. And I think that's one of the beautiful things that's present in Catholicism. You know, we want to see the positives in other church expressions. And I think that's often missed, even by people within the Catholic Church, that there's a notion that, you know, the mystery, mystery is a big theme in Catholic worship. And sometimes people will dismiss it, you know, oh, it's uh, you know, it's ritual or meaningless, but often it's kind of like what we're talking about. There's a meaning behind it that we're just not aware of. Uh next Yeah.
No More Delay: The Mystery of God
SPEAKER_00And and so we're going to continue verses four five through seven, because it's the same thing. Basically the same point. Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea raised his right hand to heaven and swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, says, There will be no more delay, but in the days when the seventh angel is to blow his trumpet, the mystery of God will be revealed, fulfilled. And he announced to his servants the prophets. So, Andy, what what do you think no more delay means in the context, this context, the context of suffering in the world, the context of waiting for God's judgment? And what might the mystery of God refer to that is going to be fulfilled? What is so what do we what are we talking about when we talk about the mystery of God? Um, and in some ways it is a mystery, so we don't know, but what do you thought? What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and in addition to what I just said, I think the mystery of God also here refers to kind of the unfolding plan, God's plan. I mean, those are some things that we don't know. I mean, you know that we don't know when you hear all these people use revelation to try and determine when the end of the world is going to be. And um when when will God's kingdom be fully revealed? You know, in our theology, we talk about the now but not yet. God's kingdom through Jesus has broken into the world, but it is not yet complete. We live in the now, but the not yet. And uh we're invited to experience his kingdom, but his kingdom is not fully uh here's the good old church word, manifested. Nick?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's what I have. I literally have the same word as you, which scares me. The unfolding of salvation, right? The unfolding of God's salvation for the world and and the final defeat of evil, the restoration of all creation. Um Ephesians 1 says God's hidden plan is now revealed in Christ. And so that's that's the mystery, that's how God's hidden plan is revealed to us. Uh so but I I'm the the three words that speak to me are the no more delay. There will be no more delay. Um God's patience has a limit. The suffering of God's people will not go unanswered forever. Um, and so for those waiting, this is hope. This is hope spoken to us. God is not slow. So Revelation 9, then we should read Revelation 9 through the lens. And I said this last week of comfort. God is coming to fight for you. Okay, go ahead, Andy.
SPEAKER_01So would no more delay be when God's patience with all of us ends, Nick? Is that comforting? I mean, kind of like your patience when you wait for me late to start the podcast. Is that when will it end?
SPEAKER_00God's patience is for the e for evil in the world, not for not for us.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00But so that's why, you know, as I sit here, so just so you know, if you're listening at home, I'm always on time and Andy is always late. Um and then he's then I then we get started, and I just get this screen with that says Andrew, and there's nobody there. There's nobody and so I've been I've been taking screenshots of me just sitting here, and then there's a picture where Andy's supposed to be, and his name is there, but he's not there. So I screenshot that and then I send it to Andy. So I'm starting to collect those.
The Gospel is Both Comfortable and Difficult
SPEAKER_01I have a good collection. He's he's AWOL. All right, moving on, verses eight to nine. Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, Go take the scroll that is open in the hand of the angel, who is standing on the sea and the land. So I went to the angel and told him, Give me the little scroll. And he said to me, Take it and eat it. It will be bitter to your stomach, but sweet as honey in your mouth. All right, Nick. So that's interesting. Looking forward to you unpacking this one for us. So why does it turn sweet to bitter? What the what does this say about proclaiming God's truth? Have you ever experienced tension in the gospel, Nick, of both being comforting and difficult? And how so?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh this is very real, right? The idea of the gospel being both comforting and difficult, the the the store, the the promise of the forgiveness of sins, assurance of salvation, God's presence being with us, that is all very comforting. And when we hear that, it's all very comforting, but it's also difficult because it it calls us, Jesus calls us to difficult things, like calls us to repentance and obedience, to letting go of our sinfulness, calls us to loving our enemies, calls us to letting go, letting go, you know, and that's that's let that's giving up control, it's setting aside our pride. Uh uh, you know, it's the being called to pick up your cross and to follow Jesus. It's, you know, when when we first hear the gospel, it's very comforting. And then as we figure out what discipleship means, discipleship is a difficult thing. It's picking up your cross. It's you know, it's it's the things that people struggle with uh daily, the things that we struggle with daily, the pride and the ego, and setting aside all the selfishness and all the ambition, you know, for the sake of the kingdom. And so, but but this is what Christianity is, right? It's it's the God loves you. Now come follow me. And uh and so they're there's sweet in the the the begin to right, there's there's sweetness in receiving the God's God's living word of life, right? The beautiful promise of eternal life and knowing that you're loved and and then there's bitterness, and that is the the part of following Jesus is because it's it involves hard things. It's speaking hard truths, it's being rejected, it's uh for the people, you know, specifically 2,000 years ago, it's enduring suffering and prosecution or persecution. Both. Uh they're both prosecuted and persecuted. Uh but but I think it's so it's comfort for the broken, it's comfort for those who are struggling with life, and then it's a call to follow me. And this is you know for my Easter sermon that follow his lead, follow his lead. And it's not always easy to follow his lead, uh specifically when we're talking about the things that that that uh you know make us feel better about ourselves. Uh what do you think, Andy?
Lutheran theology: Through Law and Gospel
Doing Lutheran Theology
SPEAKER_01You know, we could go in a bunch of directions. Good answer. Um, I like that you pulled in your Easter sermon too. The key word that I heard in what you said is our response to the gospel. Our response to the gospel. And from a Lutheran point of view, I mean, there are two ways that we interpret scripture through law and gospel. Uh, law is what we are called, challenged, invited to do, and we never are able on our own to complete that. And the gospel is what God has done on our behalf through the cross and resurrection. That's God's unconditional grace. And there are three uses of the law. This is old school Lutheran theology. Uh, you know, the first use is civic, which is, you know, bay traffic sign. Second use is what we call justification. That uh, you know, this in that it points us, justification, it points us, our lives, our inability to fulfill the law, points us to our need for Christ and shows us how we're justified by what Christ has done on our behalf, not by what we do. And then the third use of the law in Lutheran theology is kind of debated, and that is sanctification, which is Paul's question, how then shall I live? And the problem with the third use, sanctification, is the law always turns in upon itself. And by that, what is meant is that I, when I'm constantly focused on what do I need to do, then I begin justifying myself by what I have done in third use, as opposed to in second use, justifying myself by what Christ has done alone for us. Wonderful book that uh a couple of years ago had its 50th anniversary. It was called Where God Meets Man. It's by my old systematics professor, Gerhard Furdy, who died a decade ago or so. But they republished it because it's it's just a classic little kind of uh um book kind of summarizing uh Lutheran theology, kind of some of the things that I just talked about there. And our temptation, and uh the temptation in any sort of Christian group is to always move from justification to sanctification, that I'm made right with God by what I'm doing or how good I am, or that my opinions are right when other people's opinions are wrong. You could extend that even today to politics, to saying, you know, we're on the right side, you're on the wrong side. And what is so interesting is you hear all sides making that case. And and kind of a classic Lutheran interpretation is it's none of those things. It is only what God has done on my behalf. I'd say that everyone kind of claims that, but it's really kind of interesting to hear the language that they use. Nick, I could go further, but any thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so excuse me. What I what I think I'm hearing you say is that the comforting part is that you are saved and loved by God. And the difficult part is that that is supposed to change the way you live, not so that you can save yourself, but because that's a natural response to what God has done for you.
SPEAKER_01Right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So okay.
SPEAKER_01Um I used more words, Nick. It sounded uh a little more scholarly and academic and challenging the way I said it. You gotta throw in these theological terms that are kind of vague.
SPEAKER_00And you referenced Gerhard Furdy, which I love. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, I gotta, I gotta get out. You know, his his the person that followed him in that position at Luther was someone named Stephen Paulson. We have uh uh seminary grad at our church who's a big fan of Stephen Paulson. And his book, I think it was called Doing Theology. I think it's really about doing Lutheran theology. I gotta dig into that sometime. Nick, we're gonna keep going. What do you got?
SPEAKER_00It's a pretty strong title for a book. So uh sweet and bitter, though. I love the image. I because I think it's an image that we've all experienced. We've all tasted something that we thought was really good, and then it's given us a stomachache. And and I think next time you taste something that's really good and gives you a stomachache, think Revelation chapter 10.
Focus on Mission Not Method
SPEAKER_01And yeah, yeah, good resilience. What I've got is sweet is God's word gives life, and bitter because judgment is painful and rejection is painful. So Yeah.
SPEAKER_00All right, verse 11. This is the last verse of uh Revelation 10. Then they said to me, You must prophesy again about many peoples and nations and languages and kings. So uh prophesy again to many people, many nations, many languages, and many kings. So, what does this church, this verse, Andy, teach us about the ongoing mission of God's people in the world?
SPEAKER_01Um so what does it teach us about God's ongoing mission? Well, I think the word that comes to mind for me is universal, that uh it's ongoing, that we are to be, you know, kind of relentless about it. It's kind of like uh, you know, so many churches are like, well, we're here if they need us, you know, and kind of, well, this is what who we are, this is what we do. That's method. And the method is not your mission. Your mission is to reach people. Your mission is to bring the gospel to the world. Your mission is to figure out how you can, you know, be the hands and feet of Christ, you know, not just in doing and serving, but in sharing the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And um, you know, the the church movement today that is just booming, while other, you know, we talk about all the American church and all that, even though there are portions of it that are doing great, is um the Pentecostals who just have this intense focus on the Holy Spirit and how does the Holy Spirit help heal and bring restoration? And uh, you know, Paul said, I am all things to all people that I might reach some. And and so I say all that because I'm talking about relentless. And I just, you know, it is there's kind of an apathy in churches about doing mission. And when I started here 25 years ago, man, we started, in addition to our traditional services, our services that preserve and practice the historic liturgy, we started a contemporary service because we said 60% of the people in our community have voted with their feet not to go to what we're offering. So, what is it if we were relentless and if it was the mission reaching out to the world was universal, what could we do, you know, to reach those people? And we started a service that really targeted those people. And we're right now, that comes to mind because we're right now reprocessing who that target is and what they're about and how we can reach them. And probably the percentage of unchurched is gone up. Somebody said to me once, you're pouring all this attention into that. Are you making any dent? And um probably not. But the big idea in Revelation here is that God's word is never finished. It needs continual renewal. And man, I am uh that's that's kind of I am sympathetic to that notion. And it needs to be brought to every nation and language and leader, uh regardless of the cost. And so often we think that our missionary work is to go over to Africa or China or somewhere. Those have been historical audiences. Truth is, churches in Africa, man, they're booming. In fact, I love the fact that Anglicans in Africa have sent missionaries to the United States and uh China, you know, we thought the church would die. We've covered that a number of times. And instead, when the missionaries left, man, the church, through the power of the Holy Spirit, organically just boomed, and still amazing things are happening, new models happening in Christianity. So the question for us, if if we're called to do the mission, is who are who can we reach in our own settings? And and and I think the sin, the law that you know we face in a lot of our churches is, well, this is our method, this is who we are. Hopefully we'll reach someone. Instead of thinking, mission, what can we do in, you know, in our setting, at least in addition to what we're doing, to reach new people. So that kind of that's a button that got pressed on me, Nick. What are you thinking?
SPEAKER_00Folks, I gotta tell you, that was impressive to watch. Andy's arms were going and he was on fire. I love it.
SPEAKER_01Good, good, good.
SPEAKER_00Uh, so yeah, as I saw a quote the other day, I don't I don't think I know the quote exactly, but I saw it in a it's the the church is booming in places where worship itself is an act of uh where worship is against the law and faith is against the law. Uh whereas in America we wake up on Sunday morning and think, well, we have a soccer game, and so we can't go to church. That's right. And so it's a far different faith when it's against the law and and it's booming in places where you know it's uh anyway.
SPEAKER_01Um Nick, uh we're pulling our our son out of baseball practice for the next three Wednesday nights because we love Jesus. Church is our priority. So just just sharing that. Do I sound righteous enough there? Is that pious?
SPEAKER_00I love it. Okay, and and it Peter's not going to play in the majors because of that.
SPEAKER_01That's right. That's right. Oh no.
Summary Revelation 10
SPEAKER_00Uh so a couple things. You must prophesy again. Prophesy again, I think we need to say this. When the Bible says, when the word prophecy is in uh the Bible, it's not necessarily that you're telling the the future. You're just speaking on behalf of God. The prophetic voice of the church is speaking on behalf of God. Uh and so we speak on behalf of God to people, to nations, to languages, in languages and kings. And what do we say? Well, what does this tell us? It says, first that the work is not done, it'll never be done. John is told to keep going, keep proclaiming, that is our mission, to keep going, keep proclaiming. And uh God's message is never finished in the world. Uh the mission is everyone in the world, it's it's global, as you said, universal. Uh, and even after hardship, even when things aren't going easy, we are sent again to go out to proclaim God's word, uh, to give this this food that is both bitter and sweet, and to uh comfort those who need to be comforted by God's word. So um chapter ten, let's summarize, Andy. Chapter ten, let's summarize. We have a powerful rhythm of faith here. God, God we have the mighty angel that shows God's power. Uh we know that God reveals much to us, but not everything. God acts, no more delay. God's word transforms us with the sweet and the bitter, and then God sends us to prophesy again, to proclaim again. Beautiful chapter of scripture. Um bright smack dab in the middle of Revelation. And you don't even like Revelation.
SPEAKER_01That is correct. Beautiful summary, Nick. I mean, this Revelation 10, this is a real, as you pointed out in advance, a real bright spot in the book of Revelation. In fact, many ways, that's a nice summary of the whole of Scripture found in Revelation 10.
Allergies on the Grace Abides Podcast
SPEAKER_00And I think we're gonna enjoy some of the next chapters of Revelation. We're gonna get to some chapters that we probably don't like as much, but we're gonna do it all in our slow walk through the book of Revelation on the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy.
SPEAKER_01So Nick, we're making progress. When we started uh Revelation 1, it was zero degrees out. I remember that. And now it's it was like 65 here yesterday, something like that today. So uh in general, things are improving.
SPEAKER_00Sorry. Excuse me.
SPEAKER_01We have to edit out your I'm the one who's had no.
SPEAKER_00No, we're fine, we're fine. You you got me, you get you made me speechless. You got me all emotional.
SPEAKER_01That's great.
SPEAKER_00No, actually, yes, things are improving, but that doesn't always mean improvement, right? Because when it gets warmer and sometimes you get allergies, and sometimes it's you lose your voice in the middle of your podcast partners. Uh yeah, so allergies are a thing.
SPEAKER_01Mick, if it's like 65 degrees warmer here, would that mean it's like 130 in Texas? Is that what it would be?
SPEAKER_00I think we're gonna see 80s today.
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't know. It's uh yeah, but my allergies are uh my my voice sounds different, but it's because of my allergies, because as weather improves, not nothing is perfect in the world. So, you know, weather is better and yet it congests you. So there you go.
SPEAKER_01Meg, have a fantastic day to all the listeners. Thanks for being with us.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for listening, Andy. Talk to you soon.