Grace Abides with Nick & Andy

Revelation 11

• Nick Billardello & Andrew Romstad • Season 26 • Episode 15

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0:00 | 52:25

Listen in as Nick and Andy share lots of laughs as they discuss Revelation 11 and the following:

+ They explore the meaning behind measuring the inner sanctuary, symbolizing those who belong to Jesus. How do we know if we are in the right group?

+ They dive into the identity of the two witnesses, who are called to proclaim God’s truth in a dark world. How are we being witnesses?

+ They unpack how proclaiming God’s truth often brings resistance, and can lead to rejection, ridicule, or marginalization.

+ The resurrection and vindication of the witnesses remind us that death and defeat are never the end of the story for God’s people.

And a whole lot more! Thanks for listening.

In the Land of Double Predestination

SPEAKER_00

This guy was talking about he had gone to his church, and the pastor who was a church had had a theology we might describe as double predestination. Everything that happens is foredestined to happen ages before. And he said, So if I break my leg tomorrow, does that mean God foredestined that before, predestined that, whatever foreordained that before the beginning of time? And this is what I told him. I said, go to another church. I said, find another church.

SPEAKER_01

Hey everybody, thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's word one chapter at a time. We are recording at the crack of dawn this Wednesday. You got me up early to record. How are you?

SPEAKER_00

Meg, so this is pretty early for you, eh? Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

It's 9 a.m. But but the funny thing is, last week you talked about you started working like six a quarter to seven. You got up as so I was up at five this morning. I was gonna send you an email at five just so I could get on the podcast and say, Andy, did you get my email at five o'clock this morning?

SPEAKER_00

That's awesome. That is awesome. Um yeah, Nick, I I started a little after seven, but um, yeah, no, I was not going at the super early time. So I'm impressed. Good work, getting up at five, doing it for the Lord. Doing it for the Lord. That is great.

Andy Has an Idea for Ending Revelation

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah. People are still listening. We're still in Revelation. I was thinking, Andy, I had an idea. Are you ready for this idea?

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

What if we started taking two episodes to do one chapter? That way we can double the amount of time we have left with Revelation. So instead of just doing it for like 10 more weeks, we can do it for 20 more weeks and spend like the rest of the year in Revelation. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00

Nick, I was hoping you'd say the opposite of that. How about we per episode we do two chapters? We accelerate our exit from Revelation.

SPEAKER_01

I actually did have that idea too. If you want to start doing that, we can start start doing that. But uh, we are in Revelation 11 today. We're already 10 chapters done.

SPEAKER_00

Nick, this does not generate interest and excitement, though, when we talk about how quickly we can't wait to get out of this, or at least me, get out of Revelation.

SPEAKER_01

So I think Revelation is interesting, but you know, I know I know it's a struggle for you, so I'm just trying to give you options.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, thank you. I do do appreciate it. I do appreciate it.

Revelation 11:1,-2

SPEAKER_01

But we do thank you all, those who do listen, we thank you for listening. And uh our our listenership is as high as it's ever been. So I think people are interested in Revelation, Andy. So we should take our time as we slowly walk through it chapter by chapter. And today we are starting in Revelation 11, verses 1 and 2.

SPEAKER_00

But Nick, we haven't killed enough time with small talk yet. It's only two minutes into the uh We've got things to do.

SPEAKER_01

We got we have souls to save today, Andy.

Looking for a VAN

SPEAKER_00

That is correct. Souls to save. I think I have I have meetings from right now, 9 a.m., until I think I'm booked till 6 p.m. with a couple of breaks today. And then I'm sure something will find me after that. But all right.

SPEAKER_01

You want to know what I'm doing today? I am going to look for a 15-passenger van because someone made a donation. So the church is gonna buy a 15-passenger van, so we're gonna go looking for vans today. So pretty pretty great.

SPEAKER_00

We're in the market for a van too. So uh let me know what you find out.

SPEAKER_01

See if we get a two-for-one special, maybe they ship one up to Minnesota.

SPEAKER_00

That would be great. I think we're looking for a 12 passenger.

SPEAKER_01

Well, so what I found was that uh there are 12 passenger vans and there are thirteen passenger vans, and really uh the difference isn't that much.

SPEAKER_00

So okay, we could uh go down that rabbit hole. We'll do that later. But uh glad you're on it, Nick. I see I love it.

SPEAKER_01

Shall we spend shall we spend a podcast talking about Ford Transit vans? That's great.

SPEAKER_00

Uh no. No. Uh I we'll have uh I yeah, I love it when other people are doing the homework on that. So uh we'll learn from you, Nick. We have much to learn.

SPEAKER_01

Just just I'll just it seems like your options are you can get a 12 passenger with room in the back for luggage, or the room in the back for luggage can be another bench and it's a 15 passenger. So there you go.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01

So you have to decide do you want luggage or do you want more room for people?

SPEAKER_00

I want luggage.

Measure the Temple

SPEAKER_01

Speaking of measuring vans, let's measure the temple. Verses one and two. All right. Revelation 11. Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, Come and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple. Leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months. Three and a half years. Isn't that about how long we go to seminary for? Forty-two months? You start in like September and then you're done in May of three and a half years later.

SPEAKER_00

Sounds about right. Although the people going to seminary today, it's like the whole model that you and I were under is completely, you know, changing. And it's kind of up to the individual experience and the student and the seminary. It's fascinating. But back to the question here, Nick.

SPEAKER_01

But isn't seminary three and a half years of getting trampled?

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, mine was. Yeah, absolutely. That's great.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so John is told to measure the temple, but not the outer court. Just the inside. Just the inside. Do not measure the outside. Uh so why do you think measuring, what do you think measuring the temple represents, Andy? And why might God distinguish between what is measured and what is not measured? What is inside and what is outside?

SPEAKER_00

Well, Nick, this is one of those passages where, you know, we could number one, speculate. But number two, we also know, based on our study in Revelation, that there is so much uh uh built into phrases and questions and uh practices, uh, much of which has, you know, roots in the Old Testament, as we talked about last week. And so sometimes I mean, you gotta dig on this stuff. And uh so measuring the temple basically uh represents ownership, protection, and preservation is kind of what I came up with. And uh, in a spiritual sense, uh, it's kind of about the internal uh true community of faith, the inner spiritual reality that remains intact uh during times of trial. And uh so that's that's one take on it. Nick, what's your take?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, my take is uh from Romans 9, chapter 6, where it says, it is not as though God's word had failed, for not all who descended from Israel are Israel. And so there are people who claim to be part of the group who aren't actually part of the group. And so the people on the inside are the true, the true community, and then the outer court is uh all who appear to belong but don't actually belong. Um and so that leads me to the question: how do we know if we belong? How do we know if we're on the inside or if we're on the outside? How do we know if we're part of the true community or if we're part of the folks who are on the outside of the temple who are just hanging, hanging close by to the community? Um I I I don't know the answer to that other than to say it's the work of the spirit in our lives and you know God gives us the faith that saves. Uh, but um, you know, I think that I think that uh that's the distinction that is being made here. Uh and I I would say that I don't know that John was a Lutheran, right?

SPEAKER_00

Because uh but First John's pretty Lutheran.

SPEAKER_01

First John is pretty Lutheran, but Revelation John's a different guy, seems like a different guy, uh even though it's or he was just in a bad mood that day. I don't know. But uh uh it's I that but I think it's about the the the true community of faith versus those who pretend to be part of the community of faith.

SPEAKER_00

So on the first one, God is kind of um marking off what belongs to him. And in the second one, what is measured, what is not, the measured is is kind of, you know, the the hidden church. I mean, Luther talked about this, I've talked about this before. In fact, Luther had hiddenness one and hiddenness two. I mean, that the church is really hidden, and any of our attempts to really determine who is in and who is out uh are, you know, can be challenged. And we could challenge that by saying we're saved by the grace that comes through faith alone, not by our own works or merit, of course. Um but the unmeasured in this passage is the outer court, and it signifies, you know, it's kind of the external um institution of the church, which can get trampled at times. It's it's um um, you know, the world has temporary power over the external, but the Lord uh has oversight over the internal. I don't know if that's helpful or not, Nick, but that's kind of where I live.

SPEAKER_01

The way I see it is that the the inner, the inner group is the people who are known by God, right? The true church, those who are known by God. And the outer group are the ones that Jesus says, depart from me because I don't know you, right? That's what Jesus says in the gospel, depart from me because I there will be plenty who say they know me, but I will say, depart from me because I don't know you, because they don't trust in him. They don't trust in Jesus. And so if we're living our lives, you know, with a cross around our neck and yet we do not trust in Jesus, then I think uh and I think we see this, right? We we see the cross worn as a uh as a fashion statement, but not a a statement of of faith or anything. And um and Jesus says, you know, you know, if you put your trust in me, I will know you. Uh, but if you don't put your trust in me, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. I think I think you're right on. Those are some really good New Testament metaphors for what's being talked about here. And again, we won't go down this rabbit hole now, but often it raises the question of how much faith is enough, which is kind of a parallel question to how good is good enough. The answer to how good is good enough is that we are never good enough. It is what God has done for us, not our own uh doing. But Nick.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and how much faith is enough? Enough the mustard seed.

SPEAKER_00

Pingo, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Just trust Jesus. Just trust Jesus a little bit, and you're good.

SPEAKER_00

All right, verses three and four, and I will grant my two witnesses authority to prophesy for 1,260 days wearing sackcloth. You know, I Nick, when I was a kid, there were there were people doing this on the corners, wearing sackcloth and prophesying on the corners. We were on a youth trip, I think it was, and we saw people doing that. Verse 4 says, These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. So, Nick, we got two witnesses described as olive trees and lampstands. And uh, what do the whip witnesses represent? And are they individuals? Are they symbolic of something? What's your take?

SPEAKER_01

So would the ones who did it on the quarter, were they were they like marking days off and trying to do it for 1,260 days?

SPEAKER_00

Or I am sure they were, but they had like cardboard signs and they were literally wearing sackcloth. I'm trying to remember, but I mean, as a kid, you walk by that and you think, whoa, my goodness, what is that? Is that what it means to be of the part of the true faith? I mean, it's almost like scares you away rather than bring you in. And it's, you know, clearly a kind of a literalistic fundamentalist view, taking every verse in scripture, you know, directly literally. Um yeah, it was it was really, really interesting to see. It kind of kind of expands your mind that wow, I guess there are a lot of different interpretations of the faith.

SPEAKER_01

So you want to hear something fun? Yeah. Four forty-two times thirty is one thousand two hundred and sixty. So forty-two months.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So they had a 30-day month back then when this was being written. So 40, there's something about 42 months. Isn't that the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? There's something about the number 42. I don't know. I never read it, but there's something about that, about the number 42. Uh, okay, so what does this represent? I don't know what it represents. I as Lucifer.

SPEAKER_00

By the way, Mick, I was so disappointed when, you know, that you know, the Hitchhiker's Guide to that Galaxy, what is the answer? What is the I mean, it used to be a radio program when I was a kid, and they'd play it, you know, once a week. It was like on an hour. And when the answer was 42, I thought, what what is that? Well, I it's totally, totally a letdown, but go ahead.

The Light of the Gospel

SPEAKER_01

I'm just glad you got my reference. Because it was you're not you're not always up to speed on pop culture stuff, but uh correct. That one seems like one right in your wheelhouse. I like that. Uh okay, so as Lutherans, what would we say of the two um two witnesses? We would probably say that the the the Lutheran answer to this is long gospel, right? Uh the law uh is what we proclaim. Uh the law and gospel we in the world uh resists the law and rejects the gospel apart from the work of the spirit in our lives. Uh and so the law, you know, is the that which convicts us, and the gospel is that which uh comforts us. Uh but we have great imagery here, olive trees and lamp stands echoing Zechariah, Revelation chapter one, symbol of God bearing um God's people, bearing his light to the world. But I think instead of rather of focusing on the identifying these individuals, we need to emphasize what they're doing, what's important and what they're doing. And I think it's the church's call to testify to Christ in a dark world, to be the light of Christ in a dark world. Uh and so I don't know if we are the witnesses, if the church is the witness, uh, or if it's Ain, whatever it might be, I think the call is for us, the people of God, to be the light of Christ in a dark world. Uh, and I think that's what uh is going on in verses three and four. Um now, it could be very something very different, but I think uh, you know, if we just look for the simplest explanation, it's that the people of God are called to bear the light of Christ into a dark world. So that's where I'm at on it. Uh what do you think, Andy?

The Meaning of Revelation for The Church

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, in uh Revelation, uh the oil, you know, the power of the Holy Spirit, the light, the public testimony of the gospel, those are those are helpful images. And uh, you know, some traditions, not in our church, from the traditions I've been in, but you know, oil is used at baptism, uh, anointing of oil at baptism, and I'm sure there's connection there. So, um, Nick, are there any uh specific individuals or symbolic of something larger like the church? Uh is it a symbolic view? Is it uh individuals that are being referenced here? What's your take?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's the church. Uh to me, I read it as the church. It's it it could be the church, which is you know the human body of Christ in the world, and then it could be the um the the work of angels in the world, the work of the you know, the heavenly hosts, the um the it's called I don't want to say supernatural, but the you know the the divine um characters who are at play in the world. Uh so those could be the two care uh witnesses. Uh but uh yeah again, it's one of those things where I'm you know instead of focusing on actually who it is, I just think it's more important more important to focus on what the actual work is.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. I'm with you. I go with the symbolic view, the faithful church is kind of the idea. Uh some scholars have tried to make a connection to Moses and Elijah. What I read is they're probably reaching. So good.

What Does It Cost

SPEAKER_01

Isn't that what what we're all doing with Revelation? We're all reaching a little bit. We're all reaching. That is totally correct. Reaching our way through Revelation. All right, so what does it cost the faithful witness? Verses seven and eight. And I and and I'm if it is the church that we're talking about, as I'm reading this, I'm remembering the letters to the seven churches and the persecution that the seven churches had. So what is the cost of the faithful witness verses seven and eight? When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the bottomless pit will wage war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that is prophetically called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. So that's good news. And their dead bodies will lie in the street. Uh, that's a good confirmation verse right there. Uh yeah. So the beast kills the two witnesses after their testimony. Uh so why does faithful witness often lead to opposition or suffering? And where do we see this in life today, Andy?

Nick Recommends Lord of the Rings

SPEAKER_00

All right. So if we take the, I think we need to take it seriously. Although I'm thinking of confirmation kids that have actually got one or two of I was actually impressed by this. They go find these just horribly uh graphic Bible verses, and then they turn it in as their uh confirmation verse, and we have to have a conversation with them. Well, you know, this was interesting. Good job digging into your Bible. Uh uh maybe, maybe there's some other verses that might be helpful. Um But Nick, answered.

SPEAKER_01

So have I told you about the before we have I told you about the game I created to play with with my church folks? No, no. Is it a Bible verse or not? And so I'll I will pull random verses out like this. You know, the their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that is prophetically called Sodom in Egypt. Uh and and and stuff like and then I'll pull out stuff from like Lord of the Rings and uh not Mozart, Shakespeare. And I'll be like, is this a Bible verse or not? If you think it's a Bible verse, put your hands on your head. If you think it's not, put your hands on your hips, and then uh it takes about four verses to get through the entire congregation.

SPEAKER_00

That is uh that's awesome. And uh speaking of Lord of the Rings there, Nick, uh Pete uh did binge watch them all uh a couple weeks ago, and uh I had told him Nick says Lord of the Rings is better than the Harry Potter stuff. And so when he was all done, I asked him. And yep, Nick is right. So you are correct. You are endorsed, your opinion is endorsed by my son Peter there.

Witnesses face persecution because of their faith

SPEAKER_01

Love it. Not even close. Not even close. Not even close.

Distracting the Church

SPEAKER_00

Okay. All right, go ahead. In the text here, the beast is killing the witnesses because of their message. Their message tormented those who preferred living apart from God. So truth is a mirror. Uh, you know, it it reflects an uncomfortable reality. The human, or here's the here's the fancy word, systemic response is often to attempt to silence the source of that reflection. So that's why faithful witness leads to suffering. I mean, you know, the short version of that, Nick, is people people just don't want to hear it. And where where do we hear where do we see this in the world? I mean, I think American Christianity just has no concept of this. And I've talked about this before, but it's one out of every two Christians in the world will face economic uh or physical hardship because of their faith. And, you know, our church has a relationship with uh ministry in Joss, Nigeria, in Nigeria, that's absolutely true. Um, you know, all over the world. I mean, in the Middle East has been in the news so much and it happens greatly there. I mean, it is dangerous to outwardly be a person of faith. And uh we also, where else do we see this in life today? I would say that we see it in the culture as a whole. Um, in in the secular context, I mean, take whistleblowers, for instance. You know, you whistleblow and suddenly you get you're a you're a target. Uh and uh also it's counter-cultural values. I mean, you stand up for something that's contrary to the culture, you know, right or wrong, uh, you know, it can't, it can be, you know, uh, you know, standing up for, you know, what would be an example, the marginalized or something like that. I mean, you can get you can get uh persecuted for that. You can be, I mean, we we live in this cancel culture today where everyone, somehow or another, it's become like this uh moral virtue to cancel other people. And okay, um, but the downside of that is, you know, show me someone in this world where you agree with absolutely everyone. You agree with absolutely everything they believe or stand for. I mean, doesn't exist. I've never served in a church where not only do they agree on everything, even the basics, but where I agree with them or they agree with me. It's there is always distinction, and it becomes becomes this question of who is it that, you know, that, you know, I I just see value in people, and I just I think that everybody has something that can really be used to be pulling the card for the kingdom, even if I or someone else may think they're wrong on something. Mick, I got off track a little bit, but that was part of the the second question we're gonna talk about is where do we see this in life today?

SPEAKER_01

So your take on the Yeah, I think it's when you speak the truth and people don't want to hear the truth, uh, you know, they're gonna resist it. They're gonna resist it, they're gonna reject the truth, uh and that's what leads to suffering. It's it's a story as old as time. Uh I I where do we see this in the world today? I mean, we have a we have an example that happened just in the last week, right? Our president d shared a picture of himself portraying himself as Jesus. I mean, that's what happened. And uh some pastors came out and said, you know, that's that's a sin. It's a sin. Sorry, it's a sin. And then you have past Professors who came out who were defending it. And like uh Franklin Graham came out defending it. It's like, no, I mean, uh here's my my take on the situation is I think Donald Trump saw it and thought it was funny and shared it. I think sometimes he treats his social media like his buddy's text group, right? Um and he shared it and he thought it was funny.

SPEAKER_00

That's a good way of describing it. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um and you know, I don't think he was intentionally trying to, I just think he saw it and Teddy was funny, and so he shared it, and then he didn't think too much about it. Uh but what but the actual image depicted was it's I mean it's sinful to put yourself in Jesus' place. And and you have to you know, the the the the prophetic voice of the church is called to s to say, well, you know, sin is a sin. And um uh, you know, it and I think it would have been uh it would have it would have gone away a whole lot quicker if he was like, you know what, you're right, I just thought it was funny and I shared it and I wasn't thinking too much about it. Uh, you know, but then you it it just you know sometimes you have to call a sin a sin. And uh and and and not everyone's gonna like that. And um, you know, and not everyone's gonna like hearing that, you know, what they've done is is not right, uh, and so they reject it. And so then then that leads to uh, you know, that that leads to persecution and and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00

So another another angle on that, Nick, is just things like that, and I don't want to get political, but are just distractions. And there's so many things within both the church and outside of the church, but about the church as a whole that become distractions that distract us from what our real mission is. And I think about every church within has distractions that kind of detract from what are we really here to do and accomplish? And all of those other things, you know, just really it's, you know, they send us down rabbit holes, or it is just so easy to get distracted from what it is that we're all about. And it's really hard as a church to say focused on what it is that uh we're all about. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

All right, uh, verses nine to ten, uh, the world's reaction to truth. And it says for this, for three and a half days, members of the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at the dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb. And the inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and celebrate and exchange presents because these two prophets tormented the inhabitants of the earth. So people are celebrating the death of the witnesses here, and um yeah, I mean it's uh why why, Nick? Why would the world rejoice at the silencing of God's truth? What what's your take on this?

SPEAKER_01

And they're exchanging presents.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

This is they're exchanging presents. Here's a Home Depot gift card. We just killed God's truth. And they're like, what is going on?

The Real Reason the World Rejoices When Truth Is Silenced

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah. Um but I mean, this is also uh we could make the case, this is real. So, but Nick, keep going.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Uh so I've got basically two sentences here. Um Luther taught that the sinful world, the sinful nature of the world, uh, you said that the what the law uh does, what it turns in on itself.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the law always turns in on itself. Law, by definition, is not gospel. And when we confuse the two, we're making the classic biblical interpretive mistake, but continue.

SPEAKER_01

So Luther taught that the sinful nature curves in on itself. So it the Latin words were encurvatos and say, uh and resist God. So the world rejoices when truth is silenced, uh, because it because the sinful nature curves in on itself, and and and the more we sin, the more the more we sin, the more we sin, the more we sin, and then we resist God. And so we rejoice when the truth is silenced because the truth calls us to um obedience. It calls us to leave behind sinfulness, and we don't want to do that. So we rejoice when the truth is silenced, we buy gifts for each other, but this only reveals the depth of human brokenness. This is this is a terrible verse. The the the depth of that we buy each other gifts when the truth is silenced, and we celebrate the silencing of the truth. Um, you know, this but if you see, I mean, this is political assassinations, right? This is the assassination of of people like Martin Luther King, and and it this is this is all part of the world that we live in. You know, the so celebrating a uh when you assassinate someone who's leading a movement, uh uh this is all so very human, so very broken, and it just reveals the depths of human brokenness and sinfulness. So that's what I've got. What do you got, Andy?

SPEAKER_00

So I think that is the nice short answer. It shows us uh our need for the gospel, and uh it also shows us uh the world. Um, some of the language I put on this is autonomy. Uh people much prefer having I want autonomy over my life. It's my life. I'll live it the way I want. I'm not taking any outside input or direction, especially from God or people like uh God's people. Uh second one is there's a built-in hostility toward conviction. You believe something too strongly. And um, human nature, uh, you know, people push back on that. And then there's also, and we see this, you you already mentioned the political angle on this, but there's the herd mentality of rebellion. And um, you know, that came out in the exchange of gifts. Um people sort of validate one another's rejection of the truth. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I mean, there's sort of like um the the herd mentality, I don't think, needs much explaining. Um there was a book, though, Nick, that came out a couple decades ago called The Wisdom of Crowds, which was interesting in that it it came to the conclusion to some degree that, you know, truth uh can be probably we're not talking biblical truth, but we're talking about wisdom to some degree can be discerned from the wisdom of crowds. Um but I think in here we're just seeing that, you know, it's kind of like mob rebellion, you know, let's get on the train. You know, there's something about the darker side of human nature that sort of uh goes down that road. I've been doing a lot of reading on the uh Holocaust, what happened in Germany, uh, some of the camps. I went to Dachau way back in the 80s. And it it's really, you know, we're kind of talking about, in some ways, the same thing. How can people support other people and sort of get on the train of this happening? There are characteristics that sort of are at work there that are just difficult to understand.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, isn't there an old uh is it a Latin saying, Vox Populi Vox Dei, uh, which is the voice of the people is the voice of God. Um and and I I just I've heard that and I just so disagree with that. Yeah, yeah. The the voice of the people in large groups is usually never the voice of God. Yeah. It's it's usually the the exact opposite. Um but I had a thought while you were talking. You went on a group you went on a group trip to Germany. Our churches should do group trips together.

SPEAKER_00

Well, it'd be super fun.

SPEAKER_01

You and I could lead these trips. We could do like a Germany trip, and how fun would that be? We could, you know, do a podcast while we're in Wittenberg.

SPEAKER_00

Actually, that that would be fun if people wanted to go, and I'm sure there are people who want to go. That would be pretty fun.

SPEAKER_01

If you're listening to this and you're a member of one of our churches and you think it's a good idea, tell us uh when next time you see us.

SPEAKER_00

Uh yeah, uh my dad used to do that, and I went with on one of the trips to Israel in 1993, I think it was, February of ninety-three. Uh pretty powerful experience to be there.

A Minnesota Twins Gift

SPEAKER_01

So uh what we have here is the story of people sharing gifts with one another when the world's about to end. So uh, Andy, if I ever buy you a Minnesota Twins hat or jersey, just know that I'm expecting the world to come to an end very soon. Or Vikings.

SPEAKER_00

Vikings or Vikings. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

NFL draft tomorrow night.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that is that is exciting. I actually listen on the and I listened on the first night, and I uh I don't actually, I don't think we have I don't I don't know what channel it's on, but usually we're not able to watch, but I do listen on the radio.

SPEAKER_01

Every channel, Andy. It's not like it's on the NFL network. It's on like every channel.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that is great. That is great.

SPEAKER_01

And he's getting a phone call in the middle of our podcast, folks.

SPEAKER_00

My sister Rebecca calls me uh about half a dozen times a day. So I am not going to take her call now, but she cares about her brother.

SPEAKER_01

Let's just say this. One of your co-hosts know to silence their phone before the podcast starts. That's right.

Jesus Resurrection and the Fear of Judgment

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

All right, verses 11 through 13. Resurrection, vindication, and recognition of God. But after three and a half days, the breath of life from God entered the two witnesses, and they stood on their feet, and those who saw them were terrified. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, Come up here, and they went up to heaven in a cloud while their enemies watched them. At that moment there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. So the witnesses are raised up and taken up to heaven. What does this moment moment teach us about God's ultimate power? How does it shape our hope? And do you think the response from the people is genuine uh repentance or fear-driven acknowledgement of you are God and is it just they're afraid? What do you think, Andy?

SPEAKER_00

Um This is a word of gospel here because what it teaches is that the death and silencing are never the final word when you're aligned with God, when you're aligned with God's purposes, when you're a person of faith. Uh and why is that? It's so obvious. Uh, he's overcome the grave, death has been conquered. That's really the biblical piece. I could go on, but Nick, what's your take?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I agree with that, but I I'm more interested in the fear. And where does their fear come from? Does it does it come from genuine repentance or does it come from the the idea that I did we just saw a bunch of people killed in an earthquake and we don't want to die? Um, you know, so I think there's some people who just fear judgment while others actually are interested in repentance, you know, and so getting it right while they have a chance to get it right versus just being afraid of judgment.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely, because the hope is not in avoiding suffering. Uh it it's the hope comes in the restoration that that you know with God is the place to be, that we will be, that restoration flows from the hand of God. Uh I could go on, but you know, sometimes, Nick, do you ever have sermons where, you know, you you go off, you know, on some tangent and it's such good stuff, but it's not really aligned in the whole message as a whole, and you put it to the side and you hope to come back to it. Restoration is one of those themes.

SPEAKER_01

But um, yeah, I think the life of faith is not a life just to escape punishment. It's a life to live joyfully, right? It is it is the good stuff, it is the good life. And so we believe not just to get out of hell, but we believe because the life of faith, living the right, you know, it's i i even if we get there and we find out we were wrong, we still lived the right way. It was a better way to live. Living faithfully with hope and with love for your neighbor is a better way to live than the opposite way. Uh, and and I think that there's life in restoration, and I think that's that that's that's the thing we should celebrate more.

Pascals Pensees

SPEAKER_00

And Nick, one of the books that makes that case, I remember this from seminary in Walter Sundberg's class, was I think it was Pascal's Penseys uh that had a line in there, which was simply that even if if your faith, even if this is not true, it's still the right decision. It's still the right life for you know the reasons that you mentioned. Uh, the life of sacrifice, service, the life of giving, the life of, you know, peace, uh, all of that healing. Uh, we could go on. Nick, you know, the other question that uh is asked uh from this passage is genuine repentance uh kind of versus fear-driven acknowledgement, uh, and what's the difference? I I think this is a really important question, uh, because so often, you know, people associate coming to faith with a question like, you know, if you were to die tonight, or if, you know, all of that, do you know where you'd be going and questions like that? And I heard a pastor say this ages ago that kind of fear-driven faith, when when our kind of our the basis of our faith comes from fear or threats like that, never lasts. It it is not it's not a faith that sticks. Thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Fear doesn't motivate you for longer than just, you know, until you forget the fear again.

SPEAKER_00

And and it sort of creates this image and understanding of God that is just kind of um, you know, again, just I I don't think it's it captures uh the nature and understanding of God if it's this big fear-driven thing.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, it's it it you just do enough to to to avoid punishment. And that's that's not what we're called to. You know, you you mentioned you you quoted, I don't know, some famous thing.

SPEAKER_00

Who is it? Uh Pascal's pensays. In fact, it's so good, Nick. I pulled it out the other day again. And it's just a series of very short sayings from uh Pascal, who was also, what was he, a scientist or something like that. He's famous for more than this, but he was also a deeply spiritual wrote about the faith. But go ahead.

SPEAKER_01

I don't I don't know who he is or what he did, but I I'm sure he's an important person if you know about him. I I've I've got uh uh my quote is from Jim Croce, uh you know, bad, bad Leroy Brown. He wrote a song called uh I've got a name. I don't know if you've ever heard the song I've got a name. I used it once in a uh All Saints Sunday sermon. I've got a name, you know, I've got a name, I've got an identity, I've got a song to sing, I've got a life to live, and I've got a dream, I've got a hope. You know, so I use this. And then he says, and if it gets me nowhere, I'll go there proud. I carry it with me and I sing it loud, and if it gets me nowhere, I go there proud. If this life that we live gets us nowhere, I'm gonna go there proud because I still glad that I lived it this way. And I think that that's an important part of our faith, an important part of what it means to be a person of God is that you know it is an all-compass, all-encompassing thing that just takes over our life and it becomes the foundation of who we are. It's our identity, it's our purpose, it's our hope. And uh, and if it gets us nowhere, I'm gonna go there proud.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Good way to put it. And Nick, if you do want an answer to the question, uh I did ask AI, and uh, here's the answer. Uh Pasquel's Pensays, which is French for thoughts, is a landmark collection of fragments, notes, and essays written by the 17th century mathematician, physicist, and philosopher, uh, published posthumously in 1670, 1670, Nick. It was intended to be a systematic defense of the Christian religion, but Pascal died before he could assemble the fragments into a final work. But despite its unfinished state, it is considered a masterpiece of French prose and a foundational text of existential and religious philosophy. So there you go, Nick. I'll send you a copy. Uh, if the end of the world is coming, I'll give it to you as a gift. How's that?

SPEAKER_01

And I'll I'll give you a Jim Croce, greatest et CD. That's great.

What Does It Mean For Christ To Reign Fully?

SPEAKER_00

So, okay, the kingdom of the world, verse 15. It says, Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying, The kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign forever and ever. I mean, Nick, so much a revelation when we're listening to it. I hear lyrics from songs, both contemporary and old, old hymns. It's like it's just been put put to music. Um handles Messiah. Okay, there you go. Just lots and lots of stuff, contemporary stuff too. But so um, Nick, what does it mean for Christ to reign fully? How do we experience his reign now, which I think is a really important question, even before its final uh fulfillment. So what do you think?

SPEAKER_01

Well, I love how you know when I put these scripts together, you know, you get the question, I get a question, then I prepare an answer and all these things. And then before you get to the question that you're gonna ask, you you give my answer.

SPEAKER_00

I'm gonna beat you to it, Nick. That's my good stuff, Andy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh okay, so what does this mean? He will reign forever and ever, and the kingdom of the uh the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord. I think this goes back to kind of what we talked about earlier, talking about revelation, is who was the ruler of this world? The New Testament seems to say that Satan is the ruler of this world. And so what's going to happen is that throughout this process, that Satan is going to lose ownership or rule or whatever over the king, you know, the prince of the power of the air, um, and and God is going to reclaim what belongs to God already. And so this is one of those things that it belongs to God already, but but not yet. It's it's not yet full, his reign is not yet fully revealed. So so Christ rules here on earth in the church and through the people of God, but but his reign will be fully visible at his return, and there will be no longer any opportunity or any space for the devil to be at work in the world. So I think that's what it means.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

That's an excellent answer, Nick. You get an A. That's very well done.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you.

Sovereignty

SPEAKER_00

Uh so we covered this a little bit last time. You know, where is God at work in the world? We talked about the now but not yet, that Christ has brought the kingdom into the world, the world, the kingdom of God has broken into the world, but has not been fully, and here's the big religious world word, manifested, made known, understood, experienced. Uh so what would it mean for Christ to reign fully? Uh short answers are sovereignty, justice, and universal acknowledgement. Uh, that uh I I think that you know that that answers the question as well.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah. Amen. Amen. Good answer, Andy. Uh all right. That's great.

SPEAKER_00

Uh versus okay, I gotta unpack it more now. Uh sovereignty is a big question, though, because you know, it comes down to this. You know Well, the next question is about sovereignty. Okay, so you you you let me get to the next question. But Nick, I like to answer them in advance, though. Is it but you go ahead?

SPEAKER_01

This one's for you.

SPEAKER_00

Let me put it on a T for you.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Verses 16 through 18. Then the tw maybe we should do this early in the morning all the time. It's good. It's it's early. Okay. Keep going. Yeah, sorry. It is. Then the 24 elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worship God, singing, We give you thanks, Lord God Almighty. We who are and who were. I love this. We who are and he who we who were, you know, that's the the saints in heaven, praise uh for you have taken your great power and begun to reign, the nations raged, but your wrath has come, and the time for judging the dead, for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and all who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying those who destroyed the earth. So the elders worship God for God's justice and God's reign and God's sovereignty. So, Andy, how does recognizing God's sovereignty change the way we worship and live? So now go, you know, say more about sovereignty.

unknown

Okay.

Thankful Worship

SPEAKER_00

So the the problem with this sovereignty idea is this notion that people attribute everything to God. In fact, I had 30 years ago, I had this conversation. I keep referencing 30 years ago. Does anything happen to me now? I don't know. I don't know. But I keep too many meetings, maybe, for that to happen. But total sovereignty. I mean, this guy was talking about he had gone to his church, and the pastor was a church that had a theology we might describe as double predestination. Everything that happens is foredestined to happen ages before. And he said, So if I break my leg tomorrow, does that mean God foredestined that before, predestined that, whatever foreordained that before the beginning of time? And this is what I told him. I said, go to another church. I said, find another church. Because he was not a Christian. He was, it was not speaking to him. It didn't make any sense. And there's this notion, you know, I've this one of the ways that I talk about this is I say, you know, when a child dies of cancer, uh, when a child gets cancer, that is not God's doing. God is on the side of healing. God is not on the side of giving disease. And I think that is is really helpful. Is God's world, is God sovereign and ultimately, you know, you know, yeah, but your your question, yeah, I just want to talk about sovereignty because I so often hear that. Why would God do this to me? Why does God allow this to happen? Is kind of the question that gets asked. And I think it's often asked by people kind of on the sidelines or marginally affiliated with Christianity. All of a sudden, some major problem, some unintended deal happens. And all of a sudden, God gets blamed when the truth is our hope is found in God. And the question specifically that you're asking is you know, how does recognizing God's sovereignty change the way that we worship and live? Well, it moves us from alliance on Self to submission to God. And it gives us a new perspective on power. It's motivation to be faithful. And I think here's the big one, too. It gives us a sense of gratitude in all seasons. I mean, Warren Buffett has this great line about how, you know, the average person today in the United States has the luxury that kings would never have dreamed of, even hundreds of years ago. We live this life that is utterly amazing. And yet we complain about it and we have envy for the people that have a step or two above us. I mean, it it's just amazing. We don't live with gratitude. We don't live with a sense of, you know, being thankful not only for the hope that is found in Jesus Christ, but for uh the ability that we have to live in the world today. Because the history of humanity, Nick, in many ways is like the terrible scenes that we've been reading about in Revelation. You know, the dead bodies in the street and the people celebrating that. And it's really, I mean, it tells us something, as we previously noted, about human nature. Nick?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. One of the things I say is we only look at people above us on the ladder. You know, when we're talking about the ladder of success, we only look up, we never look down, we never realize that there where we are on the ladder of success is so much higher up than the major vast majority of people who um who've ever lived. I mean, we are we are like the only generation in world history. Think about this. We are the only generation in world history that has comfortable shoes.

SPEAKER_00

That's great. I'm glad you do, Nick. That's good. I do too. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Do not have comfortable shoes. I mean, if you think about it, like sneaker technology in the last 40 years has come like That's great.

SPEAKER_00

What do you have? Hokus or what is it, OnCloud? OnCloud.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I've got a really nice pair of ASICs with a really nice thick cushion. I mean, but if you think about it, like they were wearing Chuck Taylors back in the 1970s and you know, playing in the NBA. And now we wear those. I would never do anything athletic in Chuck Taylor's. They're just not comfortable. But like we are, I mean, we live in the best time ever, right? And and and so our worship should be grounded in gratitude for all the good things we have, not only the good things we have, but the good things that God has promised to give us forgiveness, life, salvation, God's presence, guidance, all that stuff. So we're not just offering praise because God is wonderful, we're giving thanks. Uh, and that to me is what worship is, and that's the type of worship that we see here uh in Revelation chapter 11. Uh and so uh we live and we worship in confidence, trusting that God is making all things right through Christ, that the process is ongoing, that Christ is at work, that the world is better than it's ever been, and it's gonna get better, uh, not because of human beings, but because of what God is doing with through the work of the Holy Spirit. So I could say more as I drop, but but I'll stop there.

SPEAKER_00

There are good shoes available at sporting goods.

SPEAKER_01

Dick Sporting Goods, the best shoe store, the best sporting goods store in all the world. That's true. So if you don't know, my wife works for Dick Sporting. My wife has worked for Dick Sporting Goods for 22 years now.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's awesome. That's great.

SPEAKER_01

I told her you are halfway to retirement, baby. Halfway there.

Pastor Andy: Pushing the Elevator Open Like Angel @ the Tomb

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it's awesome. Well say, um, Nick, you talked earlier about just one more story. You talked earlier about how maybe it's not a good idea to compare ourselves to Jesus with a picture. And uh I had on Easter morning, did I I I was called in to repair the elevator like 10 minutes before worship, someone was stuck in the elevator. And so what do you do? You get Pastor Andy, right? Because he's the elevator repair man. And so I went to, I went to the elevator. I had no idea what to do. And so I thought just on a whim, I just I thought that door is stuck. And so I just started pushing on it. And it just opened right up, just opened right up. And during my Easter sermon, I had a picture of the angel who had just rolled the stone away from the tomb. And uh uh people got on my case later the next Sunday because they said, Hey, you totally missed your opportunity. You pushing the elevator open was that you were the angel rolling the stone away from the tomb. And uh so uh people thought, you know, finally when I did use that at the last service, people thought that was kind of funny that I was I was the angel. It was not comparing myself to Jesus, Nick, but I was comparing myself to an angel rolling the stone away.

SPEAKER_01

You should totally put a sign on the door that just says the stone. Pastor Andy rolling rolling the stone. I love it. I don't know. There's I mean, how how are we gonna improve on that? I think that we should just end right there with that story. That's I think we need to.

SPEAKER_00

It was funnier in church.

SPEAKER_01

I love it. No, I think it's a great story. I think I think you did miss an opportunity. That would have been really funny.

SPEAKER_00

All right. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Because as I say in church, uh uh does a good deed really happen if you don't tell the congregation about it? That's great.

SPEAKER_00

That's even better. I'm gonna use that. Uh I need material.

SPEAKER_01

Like a tree falls in the forest, but doesn't make a noise if no one hears it. Does a good deed really happen if you don't tell anybody about it?

Interim Pastor Opening

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. Uh I've been I've been preaching more than ever now, uh you know, then at least in a couple years. Uh a couple years. So I need material. I'm gonna use that. Thank you, Nick.

SPEAKER_01

I saw your update about an interim pastor. Have you do you have an interim pastor at Cambridge within church?

SPEAKER_00

No, I've only talked to nine, I'm a solo pastor right now, like you, Nick. I'm solo. And well, no, you have an associate. I don't. That's right. I forgot. You have all kinds of staff. We are uh looking. I've talked to this is what's amazing to me. I've talked to nine different people. You know, when I became a pastor, you will go to the synod that you're assigned to, and you will go to the church that you're told to go to. And, you know, you'll be be thankful that you have a church to go serve. And it is just the polar opposite of that now, that there's a shortage of pastors, everybody restricts to where they want to be. And uh, oh, I could I could give a long speech on this. But no, I've talked to nine people, and uh yeah, we haven't got one yet. Although, since I put that post up that you talked about, Nick, I had someone sent me a fabulous name, someone who just retired who uh really has a huge skill set. So I'm having lunch with them tomorrow. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_01

Well, good luck with that. I saw that yeah, that was a nice post that you made for the members of Cambridge Lutheran Church. And I really like the subtle, subtle thing in there about we might need to start paying a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00

I am not uh complaining, but yeah, it was salary. We've had a couple of people that yeah, you don't pay enough. But I mean, these are people that have like 30 years experience and it's for a role that, you know, the last person had eight. So uh yeah, yeah, that's uh correct. Well, I have been under guidelines most of my years here, and I am not complaining. It it balances the budget, Nick.

SPEAKER_01

Well, if if the salary reaches a certain point, give me a call.

unknown

I will.

SPEAKER_00

You take my job, Nick, and I'll just I'll take that chef. You take this, you it'd be really fun.

SPEAKER_01

Could we just trade? Trade church.

SPEAKER_00

Let's trade for a year, see what happens.

SPEAKER_01

Your people. It could be a new reality TV series, turn swap. That is awesome.

SPEAKER_00

That is great. Uh, I think we better stop there, Nick.

SPEAKER_01

We're getting ourselves in trouble now.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. We'll talk soon.

SPEAKER_01

Bye.