Revelation 15 - Revelation's Final Message

In this week's Grace Abides podcast, Nick and Andy dive into Revelation 15 — one of the most powerful and visually stunning chapters in the book of Revelation.

We talk about:

• The meaning of the seven last plagues

• Why heaven’s “victory party” looks completely different from worldly victory

• What it means that “all nations” will worship before God

• The overwhelming glory of God filling the temple with smoke

• Why Revelation’s final message is ultimately about restoration, not fear

Plus, we wrestle with some big questions:

• Is God forever angry?
• Who might surprise us by being part of God’s kingdom?
• How do we rediscover wonder and reverence in modern Christianity?

If you’ve ever found Revelation confusing, intimidating, or fascinating, this conversation is for you.

Transcript

Grace Abides

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Uh, you know, I need to try hard, pray more, love more, do more, serve more, all this. It's kind of it's all law to them. And the beauty of scripture is that scripture is gospel.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Hey everybody, thanks for listening to the Grace Abides podcast with Nick and Andy, where we explore life and faith through God's word one chapter at a time. Good morning, Andy.

Summer Fever in Minnesota

SPEAKER_01 0:48

How's it going up in Minnesota today? Nick, it is, you know, we got to begin with a weather report. It is fantastic. I went out for a walk this morning. It was sunny. Uh boy, I think I got uh like eight. My my phone told me I got 18,000 steps in yesterday. Because I mean, when when spring and summer arrive in Minnesota, it just suddenly shows up. And you want to just maximize the value of it. So go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

I heard that uh is it true that you even turned the air conditioner on yesterday?

SPEAKER_01 1:18

We did. We turned we should, if we were smart, we'd have turned it on in the morning, not when it was 87 and and really humid in the house, but we did turn on the AC first time, Nick.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

In Texas, I think our air conditioner's on like 300 days a year.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Is it really? We had all the windows open and it was so fantastic in the morning, and then the house just filled with humidity.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

So when you go on walks, do you take your phone with you?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

I do. I do. I listen to podcasts. One particular podcast often I listen to that, you know, that one from that guy, the guy from Southlake's on it.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Oh gosh. You listen to us.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

I do that I can you know what it's like? Uh maybe.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Nothing makes 45 minutes go away faster than that is awesome. That is great. You know, I I've gotten to the point where I sometimes go for walks, but I don't take my phone because I learned that even if my phone doesn't track it, I still get the steps in.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Oh wow. That was a mental thing for me.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

It's like if the steps don't count if my phone doesn't track them, but you know what? They still count. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Which see, Nick, I want the credit. And uh I even have this fancy little ring that tracks my steps and then sends them to my phone to an app. And uh yeah, it's way too complicated. Although it's interesting, I uh my phone told me this morning I got better sleep uh uh last night than I have the rest of the day, but uh rest of the week. Um maybe that's you know the weather, maybe it's walking.

Nicks Sabbatical

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Maybe Nick, it's the fact that I didn't have to preach last Sunday for the first time in like two, three months. Hi this. Oh, it was fantastic. And uh TJ, our interim, did uh just a smash uh smash up job. He was just really strong, and it was Pentecost Sunday, which is fun. Although Pentecost falling on Memorial Day week, I mean Pentecost should be as big as Christmas and Easter. It's coming of the Holy Spirit upon the church, it's a birthday of the church, and meanwhile, you know, it was Memorial Day weekend. So everyone, at least in Minnesota, is, you know, it's like school's out, man, go somewhere. And so I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah, we had we had a a little bit lighter crowd than normal. But yeah, it's like the one holiday the church gets to say, this is ours, and we're not sharing it with the rest of the way, like, but yeah, it's a big deal, but we need to make a bigger deal of it.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Absolutely. And we we tried our best. It was a great day either way. Uh and then Nick, uh, I understand you're gonna be going on sabbatical uh later about a month from now in June sometime. Is that accurate? June 21st at 1 p.m. At 1 p.m. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

We have worship, we have a congregational meeting, and then I am out. I'll see y'all in September.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Oh, wow, that is impressive. I was supposed to have uh sabbatical this summer, Nick, but one of our pastors left. So someone's got to mine the ship.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

So you get sabbatical every four years, is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 4:20

That is correct, yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yeah, so I this is my second sabbatical. I'll be uh just finished uh uh 16 years. Uh so um I guess I go every eight.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

So congrats.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Well, well I'm pretty excited, and hopefully get my have the chance to get up to Minnesota this summer and uh we could record some podcasts and um you know do some things. Uh I I don't know what you do in Minnesota in the summer, but uh there is maybe there'll be snow this time I come visit.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

I would not be surprised. I do remember snow in June once. Uh but yeah, Nick, we would love to have you. I think people at church would love to meet you too. And uh we should we could even put you in the pulpit. I think not that you want to be preaching on Spatical, but I think it'd be fun.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

If I could pull out one of my greatest hits, you know, one of the sermons I've got in my back pocket. But if I got to write something new, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

You need you need to fill 41 minutes, though, Nick. 41.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

All right, I'll pull out my four best.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

That's awesome.

Revelation 15: The Calm Before the Ultimate Storm

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Nick, uh, we are in Revelation 15. I was out walking this morning, which is a great way to think. And I was thinking about the podcast today. And uh first I want to give a summary, but then I want to make the case, uh, because I've been, you know, kind of joking about when is Revelation going to be done. But uh quick summary on Revelation 15, what we're looking at today is it's kind of the calm before the ultimate storm, and the faithful are standing on a sea of glass praising God's justice and holiness. We are, by the way, singing holy, holy, holy is our first hymn in our traditional service on Sunday. And then what happens? The heavenly temple opens up, seven angels walk out carrying the final bowls of God's, I love this phrase, undiluted wrath, uh, getting ready. And here's the key point to set things right. And I was thinking, you know, why read Revelation? Because if somebody hears me joking about it, you know, I'm not a big fan of all that, why would they want to read it? I think here's the short answer: Revelation reminds us that evil doesn't get the final word. And God is putting this broken world back together. We don't have to convince people that we have a broken world. Uh, but what we do need to convince people about is reminding them uh that there is hope and that evil doesn't get the final word in the end. It's like, this is my father's world, is kind of a summary of that. And then I was, as I was going from that, I was thinking about, well, why read God's word in general? And I, you know, it's just kind of, you know, get to know his heart. It's kind of aligning our messy lives uh with God's truth so that we can live with uh the hope that I was just talking about. And um then my mind went to this. How can we trust God's word? I mean, a lot of people think that all God's word is is a bunch of do good stuff, kind of, you know, uh, you know, I need to try hard, pray more, love more, do more, serve more, all this. It's kind of it's all law to them. And the beauty of scripture is that scripture is gospel, but is it reliable? Why should how can I trust scripture? And I was kind of thinking about that, and I just jotted down three things. I think number one, the rock solid historical roots. Um, second thing is it's kind of mind-blowing that 66 books written down on paper by people could become one seamless story. And and then, but I think this is the real test. You know, you can test drive it. You know, it changes people's lives from the from the inside out when uh they, when we actually live it. And uh I was listening to a podcast this morning talking about missions and the gospel, you know, this coming Sunday's Great Commission, and I'm preaching on it. And it it was a study that was published in a public policy journal, I think it was a political science journal, actually, that was talking about how uh 19th century missionaries, when they were, you know, sent out by the church, not by this state or sponsored by the state, but when they were sent out by the church, you look at those places now and the quality of life is just so much higher uh than in the surrounding areas where people did not go. So um, all right, Nick, that's a lot. Uh, but that was kind of on my mind this morning.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Yeah. So what I heard you say was you went for a walk this morning and you started asking yourself questions and then giving the answers.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Uh I was looking for the answers, Nick. If something's bugging me, if something's in the back of my mind, uh I gotta, I gotta get it out. And I was thinking, I'm gonna put this on the podcast because I know we're we're, but I was kind of the back of my mind was I keep saying, man, when is revelation gonna be done? And I mean, that's not exactly motivational for people to want to read Revelation. So I said, why is it that revelation matters? And uh uh yeah, but I was thinking about all this in my walk, Nick. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

So I'm I'm curious, do you normally interview yourself on your walks?

unknown 9:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Nick, that is very funny. But uh, I am always asking questions. In fact, it drives people crazy. Yeah, I I just um at yesterday's staff meeting was a uh QA. People just get nervous because they don't want to give the wrong answer. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

That's a good stuff, yeah. Um great, great, uh

Why Read Revelation?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

great beginning. Revelation 15. Andy nails it. I think uh uh a lot of what we're gonna talk about today is uh you know, starts where we're gonna start with wrath and then we're gonna go to a victory party. And and I think it's a we're getting near the end of Revelation. Uh, but what I think Andy said, one of the questions was he one of the questions he asked asked himself during his uh interview was why do I want to read Revelation? And and I would say that um don't read Revelation. Don't read Revelation by yourself. It is it is the one book of the Bible that I would say if you want to if you want to know what Revelation says, find a find a Bible study to join or listen to a podcast, which you're already doing, so I'm preaching to the choir. But uh it is one of those things where I would never open Revelation and read it for like devotional reading. Uh specifically once you get past chapter four. Because it just, I mean, you have to read it with with a stack of commentaries next to the because there's just so much that it just it's just not great devotional reading, right? Read read the gospels, read Jesus' parables, read the Sermon on the Mount. That's great devotional reading, but I would say Revelation just is not the best place to go for devotional meeting reading. Do you agree with that?

SPEAKER_01 10:50

So Nick, I've been talking for uh weeks about how Revelation drives me crazy. Now you're basically telling them don't buy it, don't read it unless you buy a uh commentary. And and I know I know your rationale behind that is because you can come up with people do come up with crazy ideas, uh, rather than getting to the real meaning, the root source of it all. But nobody's gonna buy a commentary.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Of course, listen to us. Listen to us.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

And whenever in the future you want to read Revelation, just listen to us again.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Okay, I'll I'll go with that. I'll go with that.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

And I'm saying this to listen, folks, we are not getting paid to do this. We we do not have the listenership, we don't have uh advertisers, you know. We are doing this surely uh purely to help you understand scripture better. So uh, you know, when I say listen to us, I'm not saying like, you know, we're gonna make money off if you do. We do that's not it. Uh Nick. Let us do the work of going through the commentaries.

unknown 11:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Let Nick do the work. Uh you know, people have been asking how many people you think are listening to the podcast? And we get regular reports of how many downloads per week. I think a couple of weeks ago, was it about a month ago? We were in the couple of weeks in a row, we were in the 200s. And uh uh the last couple of weeks I haven't looked for last week. We were in the 70s.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Last week it was back in the 200s.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Oh, was it? Awesome. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

It's probably all the people in Iowa, Emily's friends.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

That's oh, of course. People Emily Martin, if you missed our last episode on Revelation 14, was our guest, and uh she's a pastor in uh Urban Des Moines, and so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

And she's set up right in front of an active train station.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

That was we could not have timed that more perfectly. All of a sudden uh we're introducing her and these trains go by, yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Okay,

Revelation 15: The Wrath of God Is Ended

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Revelation 15, verse 1. Let's jump in, Andy. Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is ended. So these last seven plagues are God's judgment on a disobedient world, uh, a contrary world, and with them the wrath of God is ended. So, Andy, after this, has God decided to no longer be angry following this wrath? Why is the wrath of God ended now here?

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Um, first of all, I mean this is this is what gets me about Revelation is great and amazing. And then the next five, four or five words are seven angels with seven plagues. Okay, so how is this amazing? Angels show up with plagues. So this is why I struggle uh with uh revelation some. But let's let's get into ended, the word ended, which is completed, uh, can also be translated finished. And um here's what it means. I mean, you got to get into the really, this is why Nick talked about a commentary, you got to get into the Greek sum to just what do these words actually mean? And uh that word means to bring something to its ultimate goal design or full measure. Think of it how do you think? Um, marathon runner, finishing a race, uh, crossing the finish line. And and the the best biblical example that people will know is it's the same exact root word that Jesus used on the cross when he cried out, it is finished. And we're thinking, what is finished? Your life is finished. No, that the mission that Jesus was on was had come to completion, had been completed, had been uh fulfilled. Uh Nick, am I close on that? What are you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah, I think that uh I think it's victory, right? It's so why is this great and amazing? And I think we have to continue to say this over and over again. This is great and amazing because uh because this means that God has done something for the faithful people to protect the faithful people who had been persecuted and killed and you know their lives were were miserable because of what evil was doing in the world. And so that's why this is great and amazing because the this wrath, this wrath of God is not against God's faithful people, it is against those who would do harm to God's faithful people. And so that's why this is great and amazing. And then and then uh so it's it's um it means that this is final victory. It's it's uh, you know, I I think that when we think of God's wrath, we need to stop thinking that God is an emotional God who lashes out uh and loses control and God's wrath is no, God is very uh very measured and uh but is in opposition. God is in opposition to injustice and sin and evil and everything that destroys uh creation and everything that that fights against God's people. And so uh this ending here doesn't mean God suddenly stops caring about sin. It means evil and and all the all the things in opposition to God have been dealt with completely. It's over. It there is no one left to fight against. There is no one left to stop. Uh and so when when we say it's ended, it means that uh God has restored creation. All things are back to the way it's supposed to. Uh sin, death, and evil no longer have no longer reign. God has restored all things. Andy?

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yeah, absolutely.

All Things Have an Expiration Date

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Uh I want to get at something you said there, which is like, you know, because sometimes people think if evil and suffering and all of those things exist, you know, what does that say about God who allows those things to exist? And what we're hearing in this passage is that those things that you mentioned, evil and justice, suffering, have an expiration date. Okay, expiration dates are a big deal in our family because our kids look at stuff always to make sure expiration date is correct and uh that they're always afraid if it's close or past, they might die if they eat it. Uh and and this, this is this is I mean, Evil has an expiration date, and that provides hope in a world where there is suffering.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

And uh, yeah, so yeah, and I think I love the idea of X because one of my one of the folks on Staff at Abiding Grace are like, oh, it's fine. It's six months ago, it doesn't matter. It's been it's been in the freezer the whole time, it's fine. Um But uh you know, I I think one of the things we have to say is that um God's final word is not wrath. I think Christians often imagine a God as permanently angry, as always wanting to sh to destroy, to you know, to fire and brimstone, this type of thing. But what we find in Revelation is that um God ultimately, in Revelation ultimately towards the end, moves toward healing and worship and the renewal of all things. God desires mercy and salvation, not destruction, not wrath. Grace is God's deepest desire. It is not wrath. And so uh, you know, God is looking forward to the time when wrath is put aside and and mercy and you know salvation and tranquility for God's people and all those things are are all that God has to be concerned about. Uh and yet, you know, we live at a time when uh we live in a an age, right? An age, the the human age of uh where evil and injustice and sin is everywhere, and God is gonna do something about it at some point.

The Victory Party

SPEAKER_01 18:06

All right, let's move to verses two to three. And I saw what appeared to be a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the lamb. So Nick, they're having a party, and uh this is a victory party. Uh how does Nick, is this victory party the same or different from uh human understanding of victory? Like when the Vikings beat the lions or something.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Well, I was I was gonna go to Return of the Jedi at the very end, you know, when they're with the Ewoks and they have the big victory party after they look at Death Star and they're you know, they have the the stormtrooper helmets that they're using as drums. You know, it's uh it it's it it's a it's an image of they've they've defeated the we talked about the beast and the dragon and the number of the beast, you know, the 666, and they've defeated all those. And so the the thing about human victory though, human victories usually celebrate uh domination, right? We won, you lost, right? There's a winner and there's a loser. And we humans beat you humans. Uh and but this victory celebration is different because it's uh the faithful, the the people of faith, they conquered without violence. It wasn't about me winning and you losing, it wasn't about me showing dominance over you. It was about the the lamb who was slain. It was about God doing these things for us. Um and and so those who who are celebrating at the end, they're not celebrating their dominance over anyone else. They're celebrating their faithfulness, how they remained and endured faithful under the pressure of uh opposition and persecution and all the other things. Um, and so it it is a far different experience than a human me beating you type of experience. And so, and and what's striking to me is they sing the song of Moses and the song of the lamb. They sing the song of Moses delivering Israel from slavery and the lamb delivering humanity from sin and death. And so it's it's really pointing to, if you look back to what Moses did, it was all about God showing up to bring the people out in with Jesus. It's all about God showing up. And so our celebration is less about us defeating something or someone, it is about God doing something. And so we are going to celebrate God doing something. It's not about human achievement. So, Andy, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Beautiful uh uh definition there of worship that you gave. It's all about God, and we're singing for what God has already done. We're celebrating what God has done. It's not our victory over someone else, as you pointed out. It's we're celebrating the fact that God has done something among us that is special and unique. And by participating in worship, something happens to us. By celebrating what God has done, there is transformation that happens. Um, and uh, you know, it's just interesting um in many ways, but what they're doing is their praises are magnifying what God has done, his deeds, his holiness, uh, his justice, celebrating what God has done in them. And uh, you know, I I talked um was it a week or a couple of weeks ago about how worship in many ways is a witness. Uh uh so Nick?

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Yeah, yeah. And so what is the what is the song of Moses and the Lamb, verse four? It says, Lord, who will not fear and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your judgments have been revealed. And and I think whenever it comes up, we have to we have to talk about it. We have to bring it up because it's something that I think we are as part of our mindset, we just it the the the term all nations, they're the phrase all nations. When we put all nations all nations. Will come and worship before you.

Nick: What Surprises Christians Most About The Kingdom of God

SPEAKER_00 22:02

So, Andy, what do you think, what do you think surprises Christians most about the people who may be part of God's kingdom in the end?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

That uh so-and-so is here. How did they get in? How are they a part of this? Uh, and that kind of gives us an understanding of um, you know, the radical scale of God's grace. I mean, it it's it's just like the Holy Spirit we talked about in Pentecost. We like to control, and anything that's out of our control or outside of our understanding, we're suspicious of. And, you know, maybe you had this experience. Lutherans have never been the ones who are way on the front end of talking about calling upon the Holy Spirit, what the Holy Spirit's doing in our lives, or the gifts of the Spirit, you know, uh signs and wonders in Scripture. You don't associate those with Lutherans quite as much. But what I found fascinating is that Lutheran theology often uh uh accounts for God doing those things because it's all about what God wants to do. It's all about God's action, it's all about what the Holy Spirit is doing in us. But back to God's kingdom in the end, uh, you know, it's classic scripture story. Outsiders are standing right next to, you know, let's say insiders. Dare we say us, uh, praising the Lord, uh, turning our expectations upside down. Nick?

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Yeah, I think revelation, one of the things it does is it challenges our tribal thinking, right? That that we think that there's only a narrow subset of people who are included in this. And and I think this continues to we uh continually needed need to be reminded that God's kingdom is gonna be bigger than we expect. It's gonna be bigger than people, you know, it's it's gonna be it's it's gonna be bigger than people who look like us and vote like us and worship like us and share our culture. It's gonna be it's gonna be worldwide, right? And we're gonna have to uh, you know, I think it's important that we grasp that concept. Uh and when we look at the people who Jesus spent time with in the gospels. We were talking about this last night in Bible study, about Jesus told the parable about the the Pharisee and the tax collector and how the tax collector was the one who was justified, not the Pharisee, because the Pharisee was so uh so proud of himself and exalted himself in front of the crowd. And and I think what we're going to when we get to heaven, we're gonna find people with messy pasts, people with different cultures, people who struggle with doubt, uh people the religious world overlooked, people that the church people said, I we don't want anything to do with them, and uh because because of whatever reason. And so we're gonna find that the kingdom of God is so much bigger um and and and is welcoming to those who who the the church has uh excluded historically. And and you could fill in all kinds of gaps, like what are you talking about? Well, you could f with with all the different kinds of people the church the church is really good and has been really good and has a long history of excluding people, and I think what we're gonna find is that whenever the church excludes people, God's gonna look for a reason to include them. Uh but it's not diversity for diversity's sake in the kingdom of God. Uh unity comes from Christ, and it's it's all people who die who Jesus died for. And I think we need to remember that.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Beautifully put, Nick. Well done. Um absolutely, you know. You know, there there's just something, I mean, that happens in worship today. I'm thinking about someone in particular who, you know, brand new to the church, and I just, you know, I see them walk out after Sunday with just joy. And part of that joy is just being included, being a part of something. And uh, you know, it's it's um, I just I just love seeing that. And one of the struggles, one of the questions I have, uh Nick, when I'm asking myself questions is is how do we, how do we help that continue on? I mean, in many ways, that's a discipleship pathway, coming to faith, discovering the Lord. What you're saying is hearing the good news within ourselves, you know, the good news of God, being included, uh, and and suddenly come to the sudden realization that wow, I'm included, I'm matter, I'm in, which is the beauty of the gospel. Um,

Andy on Modern Christianity

SPEAKER_01 26:11

all right, let's keep moving. Uh, verses seven to eight. Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls, full of the wrath of God, Nick, who lives forever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power. And no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were ended. So uh, Nick, I'm glad that you're here to explain this to us. Uh this is another one of these uh uh classic texts in Revelation. The temple was filled with smoke, so uh from the glory of God. I don't know what they're burning, what's happening in there. Uh, but the temple is filled with smoke from the glory of God. So have we lost some sense, Nick? Do you think of the odd mystery of God in modern Christianity? Uh and what helps people experience wonder.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Incense, Andy.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

We gotta bring back incense into worship. So we have to do it. Have you done incense, Nick? Have you done incense?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

No, I don't like the smell. But okay. But uh, I went to a seminary, we had a uh an episcopal seminary attached to it, and on Fridays they would do worship with incense, and sometimes I don't know, there's something spell uh whatever. Uh uh what I wonder is what does wrath look like in a golden bowl? Does it look like soup?

SPEAKER_01 27:32

What does it look like? I mean, uh I was kind of envisioning uh they're holding like uh something larger than cereal bowls. Trying to picture what's on the inside of it. I you know, it takes uh someone, an artistic person, Nick, to give us an answer to that.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yeah. Uh have we lost some of awe and mystery about God in modern Christianity? Yeah, I think so. I think we've become very casual and overly familiar when talking about God. I mean, when you look at some of our hymns, what a friend we have in Jesus, right? You know, and he walks with me and he talks with me and he tells, you know, it's all very, very personal and very casual and very informal. And um, and I think that's good. It's good and and it, you know, that it's good if that's a side of it, uh, but I think we make that the whole thing. I I think when we're talking about God, we need to have a bigger understanding, uh, you know, an awe-inspiring understanding that God uh you know is holy and majestic and mysterious. And when we look at scripture and we see all these people who have encounters with God, uh, you know, we we see that you know they fall on their knees. The disciples fell down in fear at the transfiguration. Uh Isaiah says, Woe is me. Moses removes his sandals. He's in the wilderness and a bush is talking to Moses, throws off his sandals. I mean, there is this sense that when we when we encounter God, that God is holy and big and mysterious, and that it causes a reaction that is much bigger than what a friend we have in Jesus, right? It, you know, it Jesus is more than just a friend. And when we're talking about the God, we're talking about uh, you know, smoke that echoes through the Old Testament that uh is bigger than the mountains, and that um is just awe-inspiring. Uh and so I think um I think there is this idea that while God is both loving and near and present and with us, but also utterly beyond us, that way bigger than us, way bigger than we could ever imagine. Um and so one of the challenges I think in modern Christianity today, Andy, is creating space for not just information about God, but genuine encounters with God, for experiential opportunities where people can encounter God through beauty and worship and silence and nature, uh, through prayer, uh moments where they can step away from the world that they're living in, you know, everything that's going on. And that's why we started doing a retreat at Abiding Grace a few years ago, because we wanted to create moments where you can step away, step out of the cycle of work and all the other things going on so that you can be intentional about recognizing, you know, the power and the presence of God uh and how much bigger that is than we could ever possibly imagine.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Nick, I've been on one of those Abiding Grace retreats. I will endorse the retreat. That was uh that was actually a great experience, super fun. Um so Nick, you're saying that God isn't just kind of our cosmic buddy that we can sort of casually figure out when we sort of have time, uh, when we feel like it.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

If that's our first step into God, that's okay, but that should lead to something bigger.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Okay. And uh some biblical language I like that gets what you're talking about, is he is a consuming fire. Okay. Uh uh, I mean, you're you're talking about yeah, I I really liked when you were talking about it's not just information, you know, and and information, it really needs to ultimately be about

Is Truth Relative?

SPEAKER_01 30:59

transformation. That's one of the, you know, things that we want to name. I what comes to mind for me is, and this was big when I was in seminary 30 years ago, was the shift from modernism to postmodernism is what kind of what you're talking about, which is modernism uh in some ways was a little too abstract and distant. It was all about information. Let's debate the information about God. And the church was always ripe, you know, rife uh with uh like doctrinal disputes, even, you know, and and we're right, they're wrong, within our group, these people are right, these people are wrong. And modernism was all about defining truth like that, uh, Christian truth. And post-modernism, and this is what was cool, is you know, truth has become relative. And right or wrong, I don't actually believe truth is relative. But what people were looking for is I want to experience God, not debate information, not debate doctrine about God. I want to be able to experience God's presence before I, you know, talk about any of those things. And in my mind, I think that's a healthy thing. Help me, if your God is X, Y, and Z, help me experience your God. And I think you talked about, you know, was it breakthrough? There was a word like that that you used. It's through those encounters with God when we actually experience God that we come to faith later. And, you know, maybe that's a weakness in our own background in the confirmation experience, which is, okay, everyone will publicly commit to the faith on this particular day. Um, and for some people that's huge. For other people, that means less, because we tend to encounter and come to experience who God is. Let's use my language of consuming fire at different times uh in our lives. Uh so that was the first thing I wanted to say. Second thing I want to say is there are passages, though, that talk about being a friend of God, that it's utterly amazing, and you named this, that God can also be our friend. It's like a dichotomy, two different experiences, an all-consuming fire, but also the one who comes alongside, who can be, who is a friend and acquaintance, who can be spoken to and we can enter into the presence of.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah, yeah. That's it's good. I, you know, I when you talk about postmodernism, I always think about my professor, Dr. Mark Allen Powell at seminary, who said, uh, I I'm I'm I'm not gonna get his quote perfect, but basically, truth is not relative. What is relative is each and everyone has their own capacity to understand the truth. And so that would that's what makes it relative, uh, because the truth is much larger than any one person can fully grasp. And so we all grasp at it differently and in different ways. And uh and so that's what makes it relative. But the truth, you know, when we say God is, you know, I am I am the way, the truth, and the life, uh, you know, that's that's not relative. Um uh so I think that uh while others may think it is, we as the church, we as God's people say, well, no, Jesus is the truth and uh the the one the one truth that we can build our lives upon.

SPEAKER_01 33:59

So that's what brings transformation, you know, encountering that truth, that experience, that um, you know, having that um, you know, meeting God in that way. That's really what what people are seeking and hope to experience more so than just information, kind of my key point. By the way, Nick, I do have Powell's books. Can't quote from them like you can. Uh or you were had interacted with the real person, not the book.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

I've got I've got autographed copies of Powell's books.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Good. Maybe someday. I have a all right. I should uh I hit the case.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

I actually became very close with the Powell family, and when they'd go on trips and he would go and teach I would actually go and and uh take care of their cats while they were away.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

So that is right. So you were their cat caretaker.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

I was. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

I I I do some cat caretaking. I don't own cats. Uh family members of mine have cats.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

I I have slept in Mark Allen Powell's guest bed taking care of his cats.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

You you are somebody, Nick. You uh that is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

And all his cats were named after 1970s folk singers, just in case anybody cared.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

That's great. Nick,

Mandalorian: Star Wars movie

SPEAKER_01 35:11

uh also I did you mention Star Wars at some point. I did go see the Star Wars movie.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Did you take Peter?

SPEAKER_01 35:17

I took Peter and Karin and uh Allie went with too. And and the the whole movie began with a shaming because I ordered a medium pop and a medium popcorn, which is just like huge. I didn't know there were refills. And so I got them both refilled, of course. I don't drink pop and I don't typically have a lot of popcorn. And woke up at the bill, I just did not feel good. I had that.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

You got that all for yourself? You didn't share it?

SPEAKER_01 35:44

I I offered it, but they had gotten other stuff. And but the movie that shouldn't the movie was fantastic. It was really well done. And I was just yeah.

When All Else Fails, We Go to the Force?

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Before you continue, I preached on this on Sunday. Oh, did you? Are you ready for my statement on Mandalorian and Grogu and what's happened to the Star Wars universe? Because this is important, Andy. I guess you didn't watch my sermon. It was a good one. You should watch it.

unknown 36:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

I don't know if it was that good, but I I really like this point. You watched the original Star Wars, right? When it came on in the early 80s? Correct. In the theater, correct. Yes, and and I know you're not a movie. You watch the original and at the end of the first one, right? Luke is flying to destroy the Death Star, and the computer navigation system comes, and Obi-Wan Kenobi says, What? Use the force, Luke. Use the force. Right? And the original Star Wars for me was all about goodness defeating evil because of the use of the force. The the the Jedi, you know, they trusted the force and they relied on the force, and it was like the first thing they went to when they needed help was the force, right? The new Star Wars stuff, The Mandalorian and Grogu, fun movie, go watch it. But they don't use the force at all. They only use the force at the like when it's the last possible out like when the writers have written themselves into a corner and they're like, how are we gonna get them out of here? Okay, we'll have, you know, we'll have Grogu do use the force a little bit, and it became the last option. When all else fails, they re go to the force. Why is this important? Because that's how faith can be in our life. It can be the very first thing, it can be the first line of defense, it can be the first thing we think of when we wake up in the morning. Whenever something goes wrong, it can be the first thing we rely on, or it can be the last thing. The new Star Wars is the force is the last thing, right? When all else fails, we go to the force. But in our lives, I've seen pee I've seen what it looks like when all else fails, you return to your faith. But I think we should keep faith first and foremost in our lives. It should be the first line of defense whenever something is going on, as opposed to like the last thing we turn to when everything else has failed. Any thoughts, Andy?

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Nick, that'll preach, man. That'll preach. That is awesome. I didn't have any of the uh insights uh like that that you did. You were clearly uh interpreting the movie through a theological lens. Beautifully done. I'm gonna I'm gonna steal that for Sunday. Do I have to give you credit? Or should I just say there was this guy in a podcast I heard who You don't have to give me credit.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Um, that is great. That is really good. Uh now give me something to steal.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

I didn't preach on Sunday, Nick.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

And so uh uh I'm not preaching this Sunday, and then the bishop's gonna be with us the Sunday after that because we are celebrating our 15th anniversary of uh organization.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

So right. Beautiful, good work. Pretty exciting. Does the bishop preach when the bishop shows up?

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Yes, I I I always invite the bishop to preach when the bishop shows up.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Okay, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

I mean, I I like the I like our bishop. He's a friend of mine. So awesome. That's really what a friend we have in the bishop.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

We've had bishops preach over the years. Yeah, that's not bad.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Yeah, so that'll be great.

Nick on Sabbatical

SPEAKER_00 38:54

All right. You said you said I got a question for you. You started with you didn't preach this past Sunday, it was nice to have a week off. Are you like me in that it's nice to have a week off, but you don't like having two weeks off?

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Oh yeah, absolutely. Because then you you get out of the habit, you get out of uh yeah, yeah. So it yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

So I'm gonna go the next two weeks without preaching, and well, that's not true. I'm preaching at a funeral this Saturday, and then I got a wedding. So But it's it's hard not it's hard not preaching, you know. I guess I'm just gonna figure it out on sabbatical.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Yeah, you know, you build up all these great ideas and all this inspiration, and but the real struggle, Nick, is when you're sitting there and you're hearing somebody else preach and you'd say, Well, this is how I would do it, or why aren't they doing this? Um yeah.

unknown 39:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

But so if while I'm on sabbatical, uh the podcast might get a little preachy because it's my preaching outlet, so we'll see how it goes.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

I love it though, Nick. You are gonna do the podcast when you're on sabbatical. That's that's good.

SPEAKER_00 39:57

So yeah, that's the

Revelation 15: The Grace Abides Podcast

SPEAKER_00 39:59

plan.

SPEAKER_01 39:59

All right.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

There you go, everybody. Revelation 15. We thank you so much for listening. And it's a little bit shorter. Revelation 15, only eight verses, but we still managed to get 40 minutes out of eight verses. That's right. So imagine next week when it's even longer. So uh Andy, always good to chat.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Good. Thank you. See you everyone. Thank you.