003 - Nate Hall - Freedom in Not Knowing

I believe that if we are to really understand how vulnerability can benefit our own personal growth, then we need to do more than just talk about it academically, we need to actually experience it, emotionally. 

I realize that if I want to create a space where others will be willing to be vulnerable and share what's truly going on for them in their lives, then I need to demonstrate that I am also willing to go there and do just that.  

I admit I'm a little hesitant to release this episode because of some of the fears and self doubt I confess to, in it.  But I guess that's the whole point of this exercise.  To be willing to show my imperfections and to push past my comfort zones in the pursuit of growth, discovery, and healing.  

Nate is someone I consider to be a true brother in my life.  How to sum up that sort of relationship is in such a short space is a ludicrous task, but here it is: Nate and I were assigned to be freshman year roommates at the University of Delaware back in 2002.  He has been one of my closest friends ever since then, even though for much of the past decade, we have lived very separate lives in many different ways.  

This conversation with Nate did not go as I had anticipated.  (Thank goodness.)

What was intended to be a heady discussion about music and creativity ended up being a raw and heartfelt conversation that helped shift a fundamental belief I had been holding on to for most of my adult life.    

All music from this episode is original music either by Nate, myself, or the two of us together.  

To hear more of Nate's old music, check out www.natehall.com

This episode is a special one for me.  I hope you get even half as much out of it as I have.


www.thisnakedvoice.com

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Transcript

Nate Hall:   0:01
Letting go of some of the some of the control stuff is is big because that I mean, I it's almost good in some ways a year here because you don't you don't know what is going to be right. I feel like before you kind of probably thought you knew what was gonna be right. And now you're just like, No, I don't know. I have no clue. There's almost a good place because now you can be like, Alright, let me where We were just saying let what happens. You can be opened in more things and you're not framing it off of what you thought it was gonna be anymore. No, that can't be a freedom

Joey Cardella:   0:42
In a podcast dedicated to vulnerability. It can be really tempting for me toe want to engage with it academically and only academically. I see this is a danger that I really want to avoid moving forward with my guests. My intention is to be able to have the conversation go to more of ah, heart space and a head space. And that's really on me to direct the conversation to that space.  

Joey Cardella:   1:14
In my real life, my conversations with people I know, and even with people who I'm just getting to know, tend to get vulnerable on deep pretty quickly.  And ideally, I'd like to replicate that here.  Due to the recorded nature of a podcast, I find myself facing this fear and shying away from doing just that. And the fear is not not around me not being able to handle it. But it's around. What if I make the other person uncomfortable diving into this territory? How is that going to make me look if they're uncomfortable? And that's a strange place to be? Because vulnerability is uncomfortable. That's the nature of the beast. So the intention of this prologue to this episode is to acknowledge that in order to walk the talk of vulnerability, if I expect my guests to show some real emotional vulnerability while being recorded, I also need to show that vulnerability.  

Joey Cardella:   2:22
What you're about to hear is a conversation between myself and my college roommate, Nate Hall. It was intended to be about music and creativity, but before we got into that topic, we're checking him in each other, catching up, and he asked me how I was doing, and I let him know I wasn't doing well. I was questioning everything I was getting into, and I didn't know what to do with myself. What direction to go in This conversation took place the beginning of this whole lot down. I pride myself on being gonna hold space for others and coach them through difficult situations. I've finally come to accept that. That's one of my gifts and one of my strengths. And I've got coaches and mentors that I turn to when I need support myself. This'll conversation was a great reminder for me. That wisdom can come from unexpected places like one of my oldest friends, and the way I was able to access that wisdom was by opening up and being vulnerable.  

Joey Cardella:   3:35
Hello and welcome back to this naked voice podcast about creativity, connection, vulnerability and exploring ways in which we might connect more deeply with ourselves and with others. So as you know, this conversation is between myself and Nate Hall. Mate was my college roommate back at the University of Delaware. Since then, he's been one of my closest friends, despite living very separate lives. We met in 2000 and two, and I often think who was the person that randomly assigned me and Nate to be roommates? Because whoever was I want to go give them a hug. I owe them so much because Nate is someone who has been such a steadfast figure in my life who has provided me with such fulfillment and love throughout the last 18 years. Nate is a songwriter, and musician - this is his song playing right now in the background - and we bonded over music, especially as we were getting to know each other initially. We learned during the course of this conversation that our first impressions of each other based on our first phone call all those years ago wayyyy off...

Nate Hall:   4:47
That's what I think of them were just how wrong I was I just - You were nothing of what? I had a very different picture. And I told you owe

Joey Cardella:   4:57
me two would tell. Yeah, tell me that you thought of me. I don't know what you thought. Me.

Nate Hall:   5:01
I thought you were gonna be a blond surfer boy. That's what about your blond surfer boy. That's that you were gonna pay blond

Joey Cardella:   5:12
surfer boy and I thought you were gonna be a white hick.  

Joey Cardella:   5:20
For those of you who don't get what's so funny and don't know, Nate and I -  I grew up on Long Island Skinny Guido kid, complete with faint mustache by the time I was 12 years old, and, ah, Nate is black. So yeah, first impressions on the phone can be misleading.  

Joey Cardella:   5:39
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I don't know that it is common for men to have close relationships where they feel comfortable enough with each other to share about where they feel they're falling short in life. And my own experience, I think, is a bit skewed because I've been so deeply ingrained in personal growth work and I've been around other people who are doing their work and feel compelled to, um, drop into that space a bit more. But in general, even men who are in relationship for many, many years who maybe have been friends since childhood, I don't know that they often will feel comfortable enough to share with each other. Here's where I feel like I don't measure up. Here's where I feel like I'm falling short.  

Joey Cardella:   6:32
And to be clear, this is not about wound worshipping. This is not about staying in that place of negativity and saying, This is what's wrong This is all the problem. These are all the problems with me that's something totally different and definitely not helpful. I'm really just speaking to sharing some of the tougher sides of the human experience, which growing up and in my experience, being a man men don't often share about. But when I do have those relationships, it's precisely because I've gotten to share about the harder sides of my life that when I share about my strengths and my victories that celebrating them really mean something, I don't feel like it's competition. I feel seen. I feel blessed and loved by these men who hold me in the times when I don't feel perfect. I'm fortunate to count in eight as one of those men in my life. And if you feel like sticking around after the conversation, I left in some music that Natan I've improvised. After we got to connect, he was on his roads keyboard and I had my guitar and we had some fun. So enjoy.

Nate Hall:   7:53
So what you feeling, Joe? What's on your heart? Talk to me about you

Joey Cardella:   7:58
{sigh} I'm getting there man... Yesterday was a hard day. Yes, it was really hard day. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. Just just like feeling like I was hidden, Hidden walls, left and right. Not sure how to move forward anyway. Like, you know, originally plan to go right back into photography this year, and then I can't go into photography anymore at the moment. Okay. Turn back to coaching. Is coaching anything I want to do right now? Not really. But you know why? Not really? I don't know. There's something about, like, just a fear about getting into it. If I'm doing coaching at my full capacity, I'm gonna be loving it. It's this, like, initial entry doing right? There's a There's a mountain to climb right now. I just don't want to climb if that Mrs Yeah, Yeah. I can't wait for that peak with the summit.

Nate Hall:   9:03
Yeah, most of it. Most of it's not most of the mountain is not to peek.

Joey Cardella:   9:08
Exactly. Exactly. Even even unless I even called Peak. Let's just call it like base camp one. I just like base camp was gonna be a great place to be, and I just don't know when I'm, you

Nate Hall:   9:21
know, one year. I mean, and there, And I say, speaking on that I'm really a year and 1/2 almost 2.5 on this journey, and I'm still not obey, Skip. And I'm so frustrated that so I get that I get that s Oh, so

Joey Cardella:   9:35
here. So here's the thing. And then I hear that entirely. It makes perfect sense. Um, you're climbing the mountain, but like you're being replenished on the way like you got water stations, you got you got, like, of food refills or whatnot. And you've got resource is coming in. I'm like, I'm like, if I started calling my mountain like, I don't have those like my I don't have income among the way. Yeah, right. So, like, so that to me like that, that's the crucial difference is like, Why don't want to start climbing This mountain is like, I'm not confident I'm gonna have those. Resource is to refuel on the way, like is very gonna come in on the on the climb like and I know this resource is here at the base Camp one. And for you based camp one must look really beautiful, you know, But for me, It's like how my I support myself on the way up.

Nate Hall:   10:26
Yeah. Now. All right. You are not alone in being in that place. Looks for that way. Yeah. Let me ask you this question. Yeah. So in times when you were feeling super motivated and doing stuff and being very productive, um, and even in, like, new things and trying new things, do you Were you consciously thinking of the fact that you felt safe and secure with, um, if you fell? Was that a conscious thought? I think part of

Joey Cardella:   11:04
it now is it is a may be a shame thing where I'm so much older, like, I don't know that I have any few fewer up any less of a safety net now than I ever did like families. Still, their friends were still there, Right? But there's a shame piece where it's like I'm 31 was 36 right

Nate Hall:   11:31
now Yet though you're still up. So

Joey Cardella:   11:33
I'm 35. 35. Um, like, how could I? How could I still have no resource is as I climbed this mountain.

Nate Hall:   11:46
So do you were speaking something that I know very well. Yeah. So

Joey Cardella:   11:52
that's a big piece of it. It's like, um, there's that Shane piece that makes me not want to, like, try something new and, like, possibly fail

Nate Hall:   12:03
Mm.

Joey Cardella:   12:04
And not have resource it along the way.

Nate Hall:   12:06
Um, you are touching on the key piece because I can relate to that very well. Very well. I think the major difference is that year. I think you're more consciously thinking about falling or not. Having resource is, even though the situation is that much different is now in your head because you feel like it could be something you can do on your own because your situation isn't like you're saying it's not that much different. It came down to it

Joey Cardella:   12:36
right? And there's a piece about years ago if something, if I failed at something, there were still, like a lot of other options that I was interested in in the back of my mind, like this doesn't work. There's a couple of things I'm really excited to explore. Mm. Pardon me. Things that this doesn't work. Oh, fuck. Like now what? And like So if I start this journey and I have no resource is along the way, and it's really hard, it might be hard for a long time, okay? And I might hate it, and I'll have no resource is and then I'll find out this is not what I want to do either. Yeah. So is this really worth the the mountain? All right. Is this coat? Because if I'm not, even, you get toe a base

Nate Hall:   13:34
camp. Yeah, Then it is worth mountain. But you see that? That wasn't you weren't even thinking about that back there. And you, Do you feel like you were more productive than when you weren't thinking about it or more productive? Now, when you are thinking so So the thing is

Joey Cardella:   13:54
that there has always existed to pay off in my mind. Even when I was younger, my fears that there's gonna be no payoff.

Nate Hall:   14:03
And why Why's that of fear? Fear now, as opposed men. Because because you're older.

Joey Cardella:   14:10
Yeah, because because I don't see how to pursue the payoff of this fails. The payoff is the goal is like doing something that I enjoy being compensated fairly for it, right? And the compensated fairly, for it's like being do be able, do something that I love throughout my life. Sustainably is really the payoff, right? That's the pay. That's it. And if this isn't it, then I don't get that pay off.

Nate Hall:   14:36
But you see that it's all in how you're framing it right now. You're afraid, because nothing, nothing else is different. You're trying to do the same thing you were trying to do, then? No, you.

Joey Cardella:   14:46
But the difference is when I was younger, I feel like I had more in the back of my mind of things I could do sustainably that I loved. Right now, I've liked like this, isn't it? This isn't it. This isn't it. So all of a sudden like this is like the last thing possible. So it wasn't a worry back then because I was like, There's no way I'm going to run through all these options of trying to do what I love to do. This feels like the last one, and all of a sudden, like everything could get. If this doesn't work, then it's all been for not I've made a mistake, and I can never have this payoff that I didn't

Nate Hall:   15:27
was no All right. So the alternative if you wanna go back what? What should you that this was all a mistake. So what? What would have been the right thing if this was a mistake?

Joey Cardella:   15:38
That's that's the frightening thing is if this isn't it, I can't even figure out what it is like. I don't even know that. So what does that say about me? That I couldn't figure out how to give myself the one thing I really wanted? Like I couldn't figure it out. What does that say them? So that's just, like, bigger like, Oh my goodness, How how could this possibly be a thing like it's so frightening to think that I could note myself so poorly to not be able to execute on this most basic thing. But cosmetically, it's like a cosmic.

Nate Hall:   16:16
I get that. But all right, so my my question, I don't think you answer my question. You're saying that if you try something now and it doesn't work out as being living, what could what would have been the right thing to do? Going back. So you're saying that this was wrong and it feels like all of this was for not so what? What should you have done back then or something? Well, part

Joey Cardella:   16:41
of this thought processes that, uh, is that no, like those still weren't right. Sound like I made a wrong decision back then. Exactly. Yeah, I didn't make a run, so I made all the right decisions. And still, this is what I've ended up with. Oh, my goodness, that's terrifying.

Nate Hall:   16:59
Yeah, it's terrifying, but it's But I mean, I feel like First of all, I'm glad to hear you say that it wouldn't have been right back then either. Right? So, like I said, it's your just now in a different point, and so you're framing it differently. But you weren't thinking of it that way back then. Yeah, you weren't thinking about it that way. No.

Joey Cardella:   17:23
I guess that, you know, is it like it is in the realm of, like, couldn't even see it as a possibility to be afraid of it, because there's no way I could ever get. They're like to run through all these options. There's no way I'm interested in too many things like I have too much confidence in myself, You know, I know myself too well. Whatever I thought you know. So it was just unfathomable that it should be a fear Yeah, especially growing up with the messages that you could do what you want. You could do anything you want. Dio believe in yourself Like all of these messages that just reinstill that possibility. And I think again what compounds it is to have judgments about others in life who seem to be doing it effortlessly. Those are just obviously projections. Like, I don't know that that's true, but it certainly seems that way, like, yeah, look at these people living the life of their dreams because they're telling me they're living the life of their dreams.

Nate Hall:   18:19
Who were these people? Who are

Joey Cardella:   18:21
these people? Right. But, you know, they say that

Nate Hall:   18:24
I'm asking. I'm asking people,

Joey Cardella:   18:28
uh, you know, any number of internet celebrities, right? Or, um, you know, coaches. You know, I turned my life around. Here's how I did it, right. Living life, My dreams. Loving the job, Baiju And making all this money right? Those people who are claiming I'm living the life of my dreams

Nate Hall:   18:51
Who are they? Whose in your face tell me actual people and other people are

Joey Cardella:   18:57
No, they're not physically in my daily life, just like geographically in my face. There psychologically in my face. That's I'm saying, Is the messaging

Nate Hall:   19:09
right? That's there. Yeah. That's the

Joey Cardella:   19:12
presence that I have. Some like, Oh, everyone look at all these people doing it. Uh, I don't have what it takes.

Nate Hall:   19:20
Well, all right. So let's let's get out of this. This, uh, this and I'm made up people. And let's talk about real people. Hook people, huh? They're not

Joey Cardella:   19:30
Maybe you re a people and their this is this is the crime. So I'm just I'm not speaking to the validity of it. I'm just speaking to the messaging that has made it harder toe hold onto it.

Nate Hall:   19:41
Many of it. Do you Do you think? I mean, we're talking to this as thoughtfully when so much of this is is a heart felt the heart conversation. Yeah, and it s so there's two different things feeling the feeling and the thought thing. They're two different days. Um, I know absolutely what you're talking about. A sfar Azaz. The the shame piece. Because it took me a long time. Teoh kind of accept that I was feeling that way. Um and, um, I don't know that I'm over it. Even though I've gotten to a certain level. Now it's only been a year, so I don't feel like I. I didn't feel like you should have taken me along. I feel like met the one who officiate our wedding got me through a lot of stuff because and I think we talked about before. I feel like everybody needs somebody who will be their cheerleader for no good reason and everybody. Everyone should pick somebody to be a true leader for for no good reason, because it's just irreplaceable ahead. Uh, but I met him and he had done a 1,000,000 different jobs in his life. From he started an architectural South salvage when he got out of college to like running museums Billy to working for the mayor to help build up Philadelphia. It's now coming back to the small town because he felt like he needed to do this before he retired. Um, and he's somebody who's been just just a cheerleader, and this has been like it'll it'll work out. We find you don't realize it like I'm not worried about you. You'll be fine. Um, and he just constantly said you don't realize it, but everything is preparation everything is preparation and also just realizing. Like things don't happen on your time. They just don't have happened when your time and the and and they're not gonna happen the way that you want them to either. And letting go of some of it. Some of the control stuff is is big because I It's almost good in some ways that year here because you don't you don't know what is going to be right. I feel like before you kind of probably thought you knew what was done in your right. And now you're just like now I don't know. I have no clue. There's almost a good place because now you can be like, Alright, let me where were just Inglett? What happens? You can be opened in more than two. You're not framing it off of what you thought it was gonna be anymore. No, that can't be a freedom, all right? I mean, you're I feel like you're in this place, and so you're feeling it as as, like, just a struggle in a bad thing. But let it be a freedom. Let it be a freedom because things aren't gonna work out the way you imagine that? That doesn't mean they're not gonna work out. So I think that's that's something that has kind of stuck with me from met. Um and so I'm glad we're talking about it, because everything you're feeling is everything I've been feeling. I have been playing for 10 years, and I was still making, like, not enough money. And I was around people that I didn't like and they weren't about anything, so I completely I was I was very much ashamed, very much a shade. Um, and I never talked about it. And you have to you have to you have to take it in, but also, like, realized like it's not how how you pictured it, but really, it's gonna it's gonna happen in a way that you're not imagining. You just don't know, and that's that's a freeing thing and just be open to And don't don't get so beat up by because you just you're here. You're here. Except that you're here. But you got enough people around you, you're not gonna fall. So let let that let that be. Let that be some comfort and not just run from machine that I've been there

Joey Cardella:   24:47
something about that idea of being freer and not knowing, as opposed to being so tight in two ways? One way of knowing this is, uh I wanted to be. This is how it's gonna be that so, um, that's so that's so beautiful. And rock and roll. It's so beautiful, Like that's the way I want to be. Is so confining. That's so not free. Yeah, that's that's so I don't know if ironic is the word,

Nate Hall:   25:42
but I think a lot of people did define freedom by control. And that's just not That's not what it is. That's pretty. It's pretty tectonic, actually. Way to talk more. I think this is why we got put his roommates for this conversation right here, right now. Wait.

Joey Cardella:   26:26
Next got tissues anywhere leaking over.

Nate Hall:   26:36
Let him fall. Yeah, it makes the guitar sound better

Joey Cardella:   26:40
These strings are good because they're coated with mucus.  

Joey Cardella:   26:49
So what just happened there in that conversation? I don't know that I can overstate the importance of what shifted for me in that interaction with Nate. And know what I'm about to share is a direct reflection on my life. I'm also curious to know if it applies to your life in any way as well. Sometimes when I'm stuck in my life, I need to go through an emotional process or an emotional release to actually move forward. And often there's a somatic component involved. So that might mean yelling, screaming, crying, dancing. Sometimes it's hitting something, and ideally, that's never anything animate or living. And this all serves to move that emotional energy inside of me. And sometimes moving that energy will allow me. Then, to I feel that release, feel that spaciousness and be able to move forward in my life. I've unstuck whatever felt stuck before, and traditionally this is where music and creativity comes in in my life. This is where I get my release, the writing, music and singing. And then other times there's a mental construct or belief that is so ingrained that it's directing my life in some capacity. In this situation, my belief was something akin to I should know how my life should unfold and how I should feel about it. And to me, that made perfect sense, because me knowing how my life should unfold was me feeling free and deciding how my life should go. It felt like that was the freedom. I want this. I want that. I think that this is how my life should be That felt like freedom. And yet try as I might, I couldn't achieve, I couldn't get there. And I was taking on these beliefs that I'm not good enough. It let shame. I felt depressed. I really felt lost.  

Joey Cardella:   28:50
And I want to point out that Nate did two really amazing things here. The 1st  was that he said, Hey, I hear you and you're not alone In that moment, I had no doubt in my mind that both those things were true and that that's all that happened. That probably would have been enough. That acknowledgement and validation goes so far when holding space and interacting with someone. Oh, I'm tryingto have a relationship with and council through anything, just acknowledging that their experience Israel and validating that their emotions are warranted. So that was number one and number two. He showed that he really understood the heart of the matter of everything I was talking about. He said, Cool. Here's your issue and here's the truth. And what Nate pointed out so beautifully was that it's actually extremely confining. To imagine that I know this to find a way is how my life should, and his challenge to me was to let go and open my mind and heart up to the possibility that in me not getting what I want, not knowing how things are going to go to accept that can be extremely free, that it's actually a world of possibilities that I had never even considered is now open. And with my eyes and heart open to that whole new world of possibilities, I actually have true freedom in my life.  

Joey Cardella:   31:45
Thanks for listening to this episode of this naked voice. This episode in particular, was a special one to me. So thanks for being here if you like what you hear, and so far, I'd love if you could go and subscribe to the podcast, leave a rating and leave a review. As always, any questions, comments or feedback can be directed to Mayotte Info At this naked voice dot com. Over time, we'll be posting more photos related to the episodes on our instagram, which will be this naked voice, and our website will contain a lot more information in general. This'll naked voice dot com So that's it. I'm gonna have this music, play us out. And if you feel like sticking around, I'm gonna put in some music that Nate and I were improvising during our long conversation. I hope you enjoy it. Be good to yourself. Where to next? Got tissues anywhere leaking all over myself.

Nate Hall:   33:12
Let him follow you. It makes the guitarist I'm better.

Joey Cardella:   33:16
Thes strings were good because of coated with mucus.

Nate Hall:   33:37
No, I got my computers I could plug in. That's the whole reason I got it for a long time. You're from long ago five from far away from foods and from King from pool wedding ring and across the and across this time from across the way I could reach your man saying step any step, baby Stay singing instead any standing stay and staying may stay when you come around singing step and stay Men's Day singing Stand and stay Stay singing instead baby staining Stay when you come around. Get about that It's mover Teoh, You're soon Jules said Makes use you son. I can make that happen. Smile me, Show me. Does pearly t show me those wrinkles in your show Me a sweetness, Senor Phil Memory and stay baby Stand, Stay thing standing. Stay, stay, Stand standing when you cap it, Liz, take it home. We gotta hear flank Happy is flower way home Would King Green staff Do you know who? Uh what will you know And you stay? Can you read it in the stay? Live this day Been saying Stay, Stay when you come Take it Someone doing? Listen, Teoh My I haven't some any a year since I don't notice I don't feel like I don't feel comfortable singing anymore.

Joey Cardella:   38:41
We're just in a Did the coach your as and And see where the dark takes you

Nate Hall:   38:49
What do you see? What stories unfold? What do you go

Joey Cardella:   38:56
when you rock and roll? You know you know you can you can you feel the bricks beneath your feet Can you feel that road underneath your toes De even Do you know you might end up on the road your

Nate Hall:   39:22
own And where it goes Take my hand and brother Let's work down a lonely road Take my hair my brother This work down slowly room here take my hand Dig my hand take my brother. It's work down this lonely room, kid. You gotta give course There. I take it so it, um You gotta warming up, Joe. I gotta follow you. Warmed you up enough. I'm problem for 20 minutes.