Ep.42 Was Jesus just a crucified loser?

Ryno and Pastor Paul discuss the horror of crucifixion, what it meant for Jesus to be executed in that manner and what it did for Christianity.

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Transcript

1 (6s):
Hey there, Ryan here from the podcast. No humble opinions where we talk to interesting people about interesting things. We've got Easter coming up. So we've grabbed our regular guests, pasta poll clock for <inaudible> to come and have a chat to us. And today we're going to do a gory edition, the horror of crucifixion

0 (26s):
<inaudible> I'm

2 (41s):
Well, very glad to be here again.

1 (43s):
It's a year of repeat based all the, on the anyone that's been on as many times as G was Maddie. So it shows a lot different to yours. So thanks for coming on and spend a week, couple of weeks with me, I've had three cancellations on things at the last minute roasting. So I feel like to the listeners out there that they might've thought I'd given up, but no, I don't give up, but we've got a couple wing out to do for the next two, as Easter is coming out. And I really enjoyed our decimation of Christmas, which is great. Cause it wasn't, it is a me thing. It's a nice myth and it's good for people to have there, but we discussed on that day that we should have a talk about Easter because Easter is not quite so much fun.

1 (1m 25s):
Yeah. This part.

2 (1m 27s):
And it's such a big one. So we're going to do two, one. We're going to do the crucifixion. And so that's like you said, probably the M rated one, a bit of blood and guts and probably fairly straightforward, who knows, but th and then we'll do another one next week for the resurrection, because that's where the rubber hits the road. I mean, there's kind of no argument that Jesus died. Yep. But there's be searching on the resurrection now. That's how am I going to convince Ryan? Okay.

1 (1m 56s):
I'm looking forward to hearing a bit. Will you tell me how he floated into the air waving nicely as you do that, but we'll do that another time. That's for the next show, but I'm like, Oh, I've got a disclosure to make too. And that is the fact that I've become a massive, ciliate no, not true. Wreckly if you're not in churches actually sponsoring these, these, these next two shows, which is really good ego, a sanctuary much. It's one of the few times I think that the church has actually given me something as opposed to the alternative, but anyhow, it obviously costs money to do these podcasts. And it's a really, it was a nice thing for you to approach and say that you'd like to help out and get some word out there. So thanks for that, mate. And we'll give you a bit of a plug halfway through.

1 (2m 36s):
He has that, but thanks very much. Very good. Alright. Crucifixion. Pretty ordinary way to Gallia take us away.

2 (2m 45s):
Okay. So yeah, I've got a whole lot of facts to tell you it's kind of water, but what's really interesting is it became fine famous in Rome because of Jesus, obviously the most famous crucified person, but it didn't start with the Romans. Even the Romans thought crucifixion was a bit of a barbaric thing and beneath them. So history goes back. It's comes from the Persians who were previous

1 (3m 10s):
Humans always developed excellent ways to hurt and kill each other. Who's sick bastard, sat there and thought, Oh, now someone or tie someone or whatever it is to a big bit of ward and let them hang there.

2 (3m 20s):
There's an argument that I heard recently that that was actually at the point in human history, where we suddenly realized we understood how to hurt other people. You know, it's kind of like, we know what hurts us so I can use that to hurt others at some point. Yeah. Was that the revelation of evil?

1 (3m 42s):
Well, I'll just, I've often thought that like the, the desire say I have an issue that I want to talk to about someone one day about punishment versus revenge. And you know, because a lot of things that people do to each other, there's nothing about punishment. It's about you getting revenge on someone or you, you making them hurt like you're hurting, which actually doesn't make any difference to the initial incident. If somebody has done something bad, they've still done it bad. Someone's still hurt. So you as a person, are you being worse by treating them poorly? Cause you're doing it and assign, you know, thoughtful manner for the death penalty or, sorry, I want to get someone on here about the death penalty. So I think that's a disgrace.

1 (4m 22s):
I can't believe anyone would kill another person whilst just looking them in the eye and saying, well, you know, we just don't want you.

2 (4m 28s):
Yeah, we're going to go. So it, it actually speaks to the, the idea of the biblical idea, eye for eye tooth for tooth. Because at first you hear that and you think, Oh, that's revenge. That's horrible. But remarkably enough eye for eye tooth for tooth actually set the maximum that if I punched you, knock your tooth out, all you could do is extract my tooth. So rather than I'm gonna hit you back and knock out two teeth, cause that's the kind of way we want to do it. So this I for I've two for the tooth. When you think about it was absolute justice kind of thing, you know, when you think of it like that, it's really thinking of it like that. And so at first it seems a bit barbaric and I think it is pretty simplistic, but in a simplistic way, it actually said, well, it's not about revenge.

2 (5m 14s):
It is actually about this happened. Retro recompense would be this the same. And the Bible actually meant you could either knock their tooth out or they could pay you the equivalent of a tooth. So it's kind of saying, well, you killed my cow rather than I kill your cow. You know, give me $250 or whatever it is. Anyway, back back to the, so that the Persians and crucifixion actually started with impaling people on posts. So let's, let's

1 (5m 43s):
When you saying piling, I mean, that's a good word. Isn't that pile? My, my idea of in piling is basically when they shove a very sharp stick up your bum and it threw the top of you and it could have,

2 (5m 59s):
It was prob I mean, how accurate would you have to carry some guy and drop him? So it was probably more, we just picked some guy up and let him fall and we're however he fell. And, and so the Persians had it, I think the Greeks took over the Persians and they sort of said, Oh yeah, this is pretty, pretty good way to control the masses because that's ultimately what it was. The Romans took over the Greeks. And so they said, we've heard about the PAX Romana, the peace of Rome. Ryan was quite remarkable in that they took over, you know, the known world and they maintain peace, but it was maintaining peace at the end of the sword.

2 (6m 40s):
But really it was kind of at the threat of crucifixion because crucifixion, it wasn't, it wasn't so much about killing people. Although that was, it did that. It was about utter humiliation and demoralization of your enemy. Cause I want us to think away. Yeah,

1 (7m 1s):
Same interests only a hundred years ago with the, not even that maybe with the executions were done in the town hall, a town hall, town square and whatever that might be, whatever punishment, the public floggings and lots of stuff. And that was a way of keeping the masses controlled as well. It didn't work as the death penalty doesn't but anyway, yes, it was part of keeping people tomorrow.

2 (7m 23s):
It, I suppose it did to a certain degree in Rome. I remember watching not that long ago, you know, there was a soccer game on and before they had a shooting. So this was in probably, you know, some South American country. And so before the game there was a shooting and they were interviewing a boy who was waiting outside and they said, Oh, why haven't you gone in? And he goes, I don't want to see this shooting. But he was, you know, 10% of the crowd were out, 90% were in and this is 10 years ago, you think? Wow. And when they were showing the soccer game, there was a, a blood patch on the, on the field. And so to help us to help us think about how this is about total demoralization, interesting story.

2 (8m 9s):
I used to live up in the Burdekin, which is Aaron home Hill, if you know, Queensland, just South of Townsville. And it's a big fishing community and the, the people they used to catch the big bear Mandy or the grocers or whatever. And they'd take them home, they'd fill it them, but they'd hang the fish up on their, the driveway to their farm or the street signs of their, their, their property. So, and so you drive around the towns and just showing off, was it, or? Yeah. And it was to show looking at bigger fish. I caught, but you're driving around. So not in town. So just out of town, you're driving around, you see all these dead fish carcasses everywhere. You think what's going on here, anything, Oh, this is a really fishing fishing town.

2 (8m 50s):
And they're really proud of their fish. You know, look what I caught mate. But yeah, I suppose the sun hits him and your dad, you know, you're in your car, you're driving past, but one day it suddenly occurred to me. What if you were a fish now, obviously fish can't walk. But imagine driving into that area as a fish and seeing these fish carcasses, you'd be like, I am out of here

1 (9m 15s):
When I was in Tazzy, when I was growing up at Tazy, they used to do that with birds and they'd shoot. I mean, you couldn't do any of it. They used to shoot like cocktails and hang them on the fence. And it was a warning to the other cocktails not to go there, whether or not it worked, I don't know, but there was plenty of it around

2 (9m 31s):
My wife grew up in a farm and yeah, I used to shoot the birds and I think there was a bit of a, this might help. And when you, when you think about this, because this, this is what gets to you. So it went from impaling to sort of nailing them on across. Sometimes they tied you on the cross. It was all sort of for the same purpose. But can you imagine this, your uncle, brother, son, father does something gets arrested by the Romans and he's put on a cross and he could take three days for them to die. Yeah, that's yeah. And here is my son on a cross and I did nothing to get him down because it suddenly occurred to me.

2 (10m 19s):
What if my son was put up on the cross, because if I went and tried to stop, you know, get him down, I'd be on the cross. And just how, how much would that demoralize a population? And so the Romans, if you were a Roman citizen, you couldn't get crucified except for treason. So the Romans didn't crucify, Romans, they crucified the, the Jewish, you know, the Greek, the anyone else, and

1 (10m 48s):
To show how low and I'm worthy, they were compared to Raymond's wasn't it.

2 (10m 51s):
And if you, you know, bat an eyelid at us, this is what will happen to you. And so imagine living with that, my son, my father was on this cross in agony for days, probably begging. And we did nothing. You would just be traumatized, humiliated, and it just makes you go, Whoa, makes you feel a little bit crook. That doesn't, it does. And so one, it wasn't so much about killing this guy, but stopping the next 10 rebelling. But also it was about absolutely destroying your reputation.

2 (11m 32s):
I don't know if you watched the Benedict Cumberbatch Sherlock show.

1 (11m 37s):
I put a finger, remember a little bit of it. I'm can't quite recall, but anyway,

2 (11m 40s):
I'm hoping some people out there listen to that show because Sherlock Holmes, Benedict Cumberbatch, you know, he's this great detective, he's his arch enemies, Moriarty. And there's a bit of a spoiler letter if you haven't seen it. But in the final episode of the, I think the first, it might've been the second series Moriarty wants to kill Sherlock, you know? Okay, I'm going to cue you, but just shooting him big deal. Know it's not that that's easy. That simple reminds me of James Bond. It's that sort of story. What Mariotti does is he sets it up so that Benedict, so that Sherlock has to commit suicide. It's kind of like you have to commit suicide or I'll kill all your friends.

2 (12m 23s):
But not only that I have gone through and changed, you know, planted all this evidence that makes it look like you were the one who committed all these crimes, framed all these idiots to boost your reputation. So in other words, I'm going to completely humiliate you killing original. Yes. Killing you is not enough. I actually have to destroy you. And so that's how the cliff hanger and I mean, this is where the Jesus story repeats. Benedict, Cumberbatch jumps off the building. And of course, a year later they have another series. And what do you find out? He comes back to life in a hallway, do a spoiler on how he managed to do that.

2 (13m 4s):
But you go, that is what this crucifixion was about as well is saying, if anyone, and that's why the one thing you could get crucified by in Roman culture was treason. He was kind of, anyone thinks they're gonna challenge Caesar or whatever. They'll get crucified. And their reputation will be nothing. It was like, if you are crucified, you are obviously not a good person. Yeah. Well, you're actually not a Roman is what they come to sign. And it goes to their religion as well because their religion, it was gods and karma that if you were a good person, God would reward you. And so you'd end up at the top.

2 (13m 45s):
But if you're a bad person, you'd end up being crucified or worse. That is so wrong though. Isn't it? Because good people that's exactly my experience. Good people really get to the top. And this is, I suppose, part of my point is that worldview was changed because of Jesus's crucifixion because they were so entrenched in that worldview, the Jews were, the Romans were, there's a verse in the Bible that says cursed is anyone who's hanging on a tree. And the Jews are going well across as made of wood. So if you're hanging on across your cursed, but it's your cursed of God, God put you there. You know, if you'd done something to end up on a cross, it was the gods.

2 (14m 25s):
And so that's why to end up in a cross in their religious worldview, which was their whole worldview was you were obviously a bad person and not just a tricky person, you were an evil person. And so you'd got away with this for so long, but you know, the God's caught up with you. So yeah, to die on a cross was to, to, to be totally smashed. Sorry, just back in cross day, the Jews believed in one God. Yes. And the Romans believed in hundreds of them. That's why they had lots of gods. And then he had a bunch of pagans who believed in all their hundreds as well and the pagans and the pagans and the Romans were very similar.

2 (15m 9s):
So one of the wise things, well, one of the smart things the Romans did, because what used to happen was your tribe was represented by our God. And so when tribes went to war, they believed the gods were going to war in heaven. And so it's kind of like, if your tribe won on earth, it was because the gods is one in heaven. And so if your tribe beat the other tribe, our God one, your God sucks. Yoga is nothing. And so what used to happen is the Greeks would attack someone, take them over and they would sort of push their God over your God doesn't exist. And they will play Celeste statues. And they would assume that those people into their culture as slaves and workers and all these sorts of things.

2 (15m 52s):
So you had all these dispossessed people who no longer had gods, or they still might hang on to their gods, but their God had been defeated. So, and that creates resentment. Yeah. Cruel created resentment because our, our tribe has been eaten up. The Romans went, what they did is when they took over other tribes, they didn't say your God lost. It was your God's joined our team. And so they had the path Anon, which was this big building, which I think is still there in Athens. And they would put the statues of the gods in there. So you had the Roman gods up that, you know, it's not even Zeus. I kind of remember. Yeah, because the Greek is choosing.

2 (16m 34s):
Yeah. They switched them around. So you ended up with this Pat Pat path and on with heaps of God today, every God of every nation. But it meant that those people were like going, Oh, okay. We can still maintain at tain our own identity, our gods in the Pantheon of gods. Okay. Our God's in charge of, you know, hail or rainwater, toilet benches at bus stops. And so nebbishy to you, you have to go to the bus page. That's correct. But it was a smart idea. Yeah. And it helped sort of unify society, but that's one of the ironies about when they went in and took over Jerusalem, took over Israel.

2 (17m 16s):
They went into the temple, there went into the Holy of Holies, which was where God lived, pulled back the curtain. And there was no statue. There, there was no God. And they're kind of going well, how do we put their God in our temple? And it's because the Jewish religion was just very different because they said, you can't make a statue of God. You can't make an image of God, God. So big. They didn't have an image. They had candles to burn stuff, candles to burn and incense to burn and presentations sacrifices. They had an arc of the, so the Jews did the Romans heads in, they were the only ones who were given special dispensation that they could still worship their God.

2 (17m 58s):
And they didn't have to worship any of the other gods. Everyone else had to worship the other gods. These Jews are

1 (18m 3s):
Like too much like ad work.

2 (18m 6s):
And, and I mean, this is not crucifixion, but it's interesting stuff in that the, the way that religion worked then was very much like shopping. I'm just going to make sure I follow the, our time very much like shopping in that you went to the God that you wanted. So if there's the God of war, Oh, we're going to war,

1 (18m 25s):
Go see some money,

2 (18m 27s):
Make a sacrifice. Whoa. If I want my wife to get pregnant, go to the God of fertility. And so you didn't go to temple every set Saturday or Sunday or church every Sunday, like we would sort of assume you went to the God you needed when you needed it. Right. A thing. And the rest of the time, you didn't care about that. God. And so it was very much like you went shopping. It was very consumerist thing. And no, God kind of owns you. You still had those, perhaps what you say, family gods or tribal God, which you would give reverence to. But it was very different to how we see religion. And we see religion like the Jews, because they said, Yahuah their God owns them.

2 (19m 10s):
It is their God. And you go to temple once a week and you give your allegiance and you go through your rituals, et cetera, et cetera. So that, that's actually two different worldviews of how religion, when I blew the Romans mind, it did, they didn't know how to deal with these Jews. And I was talking about how Jews didn't like the idea of crucifixion. It was so extreme that at one stage, and I think this is a Mac McCabe's rebellion, but I know I'm not good enough on my history that the Jews revolted that we're always trying to revolt can kick the Romans out. They were surrounded because there wasn't enough of them by the Romans, the Romans sort of said, you know, put down your, your swords or we're gonna cue you.

2 (19m 52s):
You and they knew that if they got captured, they would be crucified these, these Jews. So they, well, they, they actually would rather have committed suicide than be crucified. So if you get that in your head, because in most religions, especially those days, suicide was considered pretty taboo, you know, to take your own life. So that's how deeper taboo crucifixion was. We would rather commit suicide, then be not up to a tree. So that gives you that, that context.

1 (20m 23s):
So the Ryman's will show on to show that Jesus was the lowest of the low he's worth nothing. And he's God doesn't care about him. Well, it wasn't even the Romans because what happened is, hang on, I forgot about this. It was the Jews.

2 (20m 36s):
Hmm. Because, and this is one of the things the Jews had kind of their own rules and laws for their own society. But they weren't really allowed to put in one to two death. Now they could, they had, they were allowed to put some people to death, some ways. And the Jewish way to put someone to death was to stone them. So, and there's stories in the Bible where they brought a lady caught in adultery to Jesus and said, Hey, let's yeah, let's stoner. And he said, he, without sin cast the first stone. So they, they could cruise. They could execute people now because she's a female probably wouldn't have mattered.

2 (21m 18s):
But you know, this is part of the world they're in. But man, it would have been a bit harder for them to crucify two stages. They, they probably could have got away with it because the fact that he was popular, maybe not, but rather than stone him, because stoning was okay. If you got stoned, that didn't mean you were cursed of God having

1 (21m 38s):
Rocks thrown out. You're not getting Stein. That's

2 (21m 40s):
Right. Lots of rocks till you die, which is, heck that's not a good way to go.

1 (21m 47s):
Let's be honest. And

2 (21m 48s):
I can tell you that there's a logic to it, but it's not always the best thing they wanted. Jesus crucified. That's why they went to the Romans and said, this guy's claiming to be as, as good as the emperor.

1 (22m 3s):
Now that I recall, sorry, it's been a wall, but thinking back the Romans didn't sentence, Jesus' death. I just bought the hands of him as punches Paula. Yeah.

2 (22m 12s):
Yes. So that's so that's what happens in the story so that the Jews take Jesus to the Romans and they say, look, this guy claims to be God. And we have this term son of God and we think, wow, Jesus invented it. But Caesar called himself, son of God. Right? So their society was the person at the top was almost divine. And when they died, they kind of became divine. So they, they considered, you know, the emperor was son of Jupiter on the way to divinity. So this Jesus says, well, hang on. Now you're looking at the real son of God. So the Jews said, we're going to take it and say this guy saying, he's the emperor.

2 (22m 53s):
You should get rid of him. The Romans, they're looking at him going, Oh, this guy, you know, he's, he seems pretty harmless. He seems pretty, whatever. He doesn't seem a threat and conscious pilots trying to look for a way to get, get out of this. And there's another guy Barabis who had caused an insurrection. Yeah. He was a bad guy. He said, you know, take this guy. And they're going that the Jewish leaders just worked up the crowd, that mob mentality, you know, not, we want Jesus dead in some ways. It's a bit, like you said, we'll go watch this execution. We want to see what's going to happen. What's going to want to show what's going to happen. And so Pontus pilot, he does wash his hands of it.

2 (23m 36s):
But it is actually, it's kind of like, let the responsibility not be on me. You guys want it. Okay. You know, my soldiers will do it, but it's on it's it's on my authority, but I'm not taking the blame,

1 (23m 48s):
But I'm not mad. Happy about it. Yeah.

2 (23m 50s):
And so they, they whip him, et cetera. Okay. Crucifying,

1 (23m 55s):
Sorry, I don't want to cut you off here, but

2 (23m 59s):
There's a lot of show in

1 (24m 1s):
The story of Jason being executed. I mean, I, I mean, I'm a Catholic boy and what's the 12, is it 12 or 12 steps that the Catholics have? So yeah, they have more around the churches all the time. It was all the stations of the cross sections of the grunt work and me to die. My November photo that for a long time. But like, is it, I mean, one, it, you know, he he's has a crown of thorns plus 20, is there anything I kept the side from the Bible is a history. Is it historical writings about these outside of the box?

2 (24m 31s):
Yes. Yes. So there's Josephus, there's, there's a bunch of, I mean, a bunch, you know, probably five or six, but for the era, that's pretty amazing. Who very close to those times said there was this guy called Jesus. He caused a bit of trouble. He was a bit of a sorcerer and in the end punches, pilot, head and crucified. So they don't give the big, long story, but they give the basic facts that yep. There was this guy called Jesus. He's a bit of an sensation for a while, but they killed him.

1 (25m 5s):
Hmm. And the reason I ask is that, you know, I enjoyed our last chat on the, on Christmas. Cause it was so much in net that wasn't accurate. But in this one on mine, it's for me to be, you know, being against, inside, not well, it's a fairly well known story and there's not much magic or there's not much, you know, bits and pieces in it. You know, as you say, sorcery in the whole thing, some guy got led through a CD, Karen across, got the shit beat in there that we most that some of them, and then they're hanging out until he died. And that seems to be pretty much what

2 (25m 39s):
That's right. And in some ways that's the whole mocking that the religious leaders said that you've done all these Hocus Pocus things. You've, you've done all this stuff, but how come where's it all gone? You want to get out of this one, but they pretty much said that you, you you've claimed to be the son of God, get out of this one, come down from the cross. And so that is part of, what's remarkable about this story because this story is the ultimate humiliation and what is it? Destruction of his reputation. And so the fact that Jesus didn't do anything well, was everything else fake?

2 (26m 21s):
You know, where all those other miracles just tricks. Why doesn't he pull a rabbit out of the hat? You know, why doesn't he strike someone down? You wouldn't have to do much to make the Roman soldiers go, Whoa, we're not touching this guy.

1 (26m 36s):
You wouldn't think so.

2 (26m 39s):
Yeah. I mean, they wouldn't fight in thunderstorms because that was the God of thunder was angry, you know? So it's so he just estimate, boom, boom, boom. And they're going, Whoa, we're stepping back from this. We don't want anything to do with that. So, and that, that again, in some ways it's the religious leaders when he dies, they're like, yes, he's gone this guy who was just a thorn in our side, because he was really calling the religious system to account. That's what Jesus was doing. The religious system. It, it had got in with the Romans and, you know, they maintained their power and authority and prestige and privilege while they sort of kept the Romans happy.

2 (27m 22s):
But Jesus says, well, hang on this isn't this isn't right. That you're, you're not looking after the least, like you're short, et cetera, et cetera. So he, Jesus was really threatening to up in the whole religious system. And that's the clearing of the temple story was really saying the temples bunk it's, it's not working. This it's become a marketplace at dinner thieves instead of, you know, a Holy place. So for them to have him killed for him to do nothing, kind of said, we told you he couldn't do miracles. We told you it was an unusual, yeah.

1 (27m 56s):
Jumping in there for psyche. Look, I just want to give you a bit of a plug. If you can, as I said, you are my sponsor today and I do appreciate it. But more importantly, that you've sort of in our discussions, even though I'm not a fan of the church and religion, I get anyhow friendship, I guess we'll figure it out. A few other bits and pieces, but you often describe church as tribe with a bit of God thrown in and chug social belonging is a charity Iran, which is to give people connection in the community and give them a sense of belonging. And your church does that. And you do that specifically yourself there. So a bit of a plug, what do you got coming up for Easter? Can people that feel like they need a bit of spirituality or a bit of even just a bit of belonging, what can they do?

1 (28m 40s):
How can they find you?

2 (28m 41s):
Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those things that when you're in the church, you don't realize people don't outside don't know, had to come in. Dunno what you do. Are you allowed in? I've had people saying, am I allowed to come to church? And the, the news is churches, public events they're open. So everyone's welcome. And it, Easter is a good time to come because usually there's a big crowd, so you can hide in the back and you can get a bit of a taste for it. So on good Friday, it's eight o'clock in the morning. It might be a bit early for some, we have a service where we will remember the crucifixion. It won't be blood and guts, but we'll, we'll tell the story. And then Easter Sunday, which is 9:00 AM. So you can sleep in a bit.

2 (29m 23s):
We celebrate the resurrection, which is, I suppose, the good news part of the story. And you can, if you like what I say about the resurrection next time, and you can go, okay, I can gel in with that. But like you said, a lot of people come to church because of the human connection because of the belonging. And it's actually, and I, you know, I, I love for like what, what you do because as our connection to church has dropped, you know, once upon a time, I don't think it was ever 90%, but it was probably 50% once upon a time, you know, a great chunk of people in the community went to church and whatever you believe about God, it actually meant people were socially connected.

1 (30m 5s):
Yeah. I still acknowledge that entirely with employment. One of the things I say is it's the church carpark, it's a chair thing for people to get together and see each other and connect

2 (30m 14s):
A lot of times in employment, as you know, it's not what you know, it's who, you know, absolutely. I got my first three jobs because I was in a church and the others go, he's a pretty good young bloke. I need someone to do this, come out here. So yeah. Yeah. And as attendance at worship has gone down, people have noted. Well now mental health has gone up, you know, all these things seem to be correlated. And whether you think it's religion, I read something. Life expectancy. The biggest influence on life expectancy is actually social connectedness, right?

1 (30m 47s):
It is indeed. We're not meant to be solo people. We're not meant to be living in the Hills by ourselves. So we think, we think it permits is the word I was looking for.

2 (30m 58s):
I think it's the way to go. So back to the, back to the, the ad, it would, you can come on Easter the Friday or the Sunday or any Sunday. You're quite welcome to walk in, just go with where's Paul. Where's possible. I'll be there somewhere. And my church, which I've got to give a plug to them. They have been really good at welcoming, accepting people. I remember, you know, I had one guy come into one of my churches. He had a tattoo of a naked woman on his bicep. Sweet. Yeah. It was kind of like I had to study it for a while then. And he wore a tank top stubbies and thongs, and he had, you know, mullet and, and he came in and there's this little old lady who's probably eyeballs are about where, where these biceps are and he's, you know, Hey, y'all go on.

2 (31m 50s):
And, and, and they, they just welcomed him and accepted him. And I thought, ah, I've got to give credit to these, these people that they're trying to live, what they actually believe. And often you scratch below the surface of these little old church people. And you find out they've actually got really interesting stories where they weren't always nice little church.

1 (32m 8s):
I met one of your people. I won't mention the name, but they had very, very dodgy earlier life and have a lot of regret to know why they did. And they feel that God, the churches is giving them a bit of redemption. So if that's what you need, pop in and see past the pole at Redcliffe uniting on Anzac Avenue and you, you get what you need out of it. So I probably won't be there to be honest, but that's okay.

2 (32m 32s):
And I should say you can stalk us online as well, because we've been doing COVID online church. We're still doing online church. So just look up regularly for uniting. You'll find us on YouTube and you can watch and say, man, I really don't want to go there or okay. Maybe, maybe

1 (32m 47s):
Good Lord. Not fair to you. Like only other sponsors be sitting. You can even talk to us first name. Okay. Now question for you. These, the, the history says that Jesus was forced to carry his own cross through the CT whilst being pelted with bits and pieces and, and flogged and whatever else might be. Was that a normal occurrence? The other two thieves get got crucified. The, they have to do that as well. Or was it specially made for him?

2 (33m 13s):
The, the understanding is that was, that was what happened. You left the Roman barracks and you walked, what's now called the via. Dolorosa the way of the cross, which is really just part of that humiliation, you know, look at this guy. And again, anyone tries to rescue, you joined the back of the queue, you'll be next. So will demoralize the population. You're powerless. You can't do anything. And this, this, this is about humiliation. Now, at times they did crucify thousand people. So I'd say there were times when they didn't, it was like, right. We're just gonna put crosses everywhere. And this is when there was a revolution, they're all going, but kind of, I don't know if it was a daily or a weekly occurrence, there would be these people paraded down the street.

2 (33m 57s):
And, and one of the ironies of is that Jesus had gone about in his life saying, you know, take up your cross and follow me, take up your cross and follow me. Okay.

1 (34m 5s):
We said that beforehand. Yeah. And he was talking about the bet. What about the people that had been forced to do that March?

2 (34m 12s):
And this is, this is, I suppose, part of the whole story getting to the end is, was, was this a mistake? Because his death, if that's where it ends and that's where lots of people would say, that's where it ended. Then that was a humiliating way to go. And Jay, it looks like, you know, a bad ending to what might've been a good story, but it didn't end well, did he mean it? And the accounts that we have, Matthew Mark, Luke and John Jesus starts talking about the cross long before he gets there. In fact, he, it's very, it's very clear in the gospels that that's Jesus's purpose.

2 (34m 54s):
So Mark's gospel, which is considered the earliest one written. There's no mention. So it's 16 chapters. There's no mention of the cross in the first sort of seven chapters. And in this first seven chapters, it's, everyone's asking, who is this guy? Who is this guy? He's doing all this stuff. Who is he? Who is he? And in chapter eight, he actually asked the disciples who, who, what's the gospel? What are people saying about me? And they're going well, they, they say you, one of the prophets come back to life. They say that you're John the Baptist, do anything. They say that you're Alijah. And he says, what? Who do you guys think I am? And they say, we think you're the Christ. We think you're the Messiah.

2 (35m 34s):
And again, as we talked before, understanding that term is interesting because you come to believe it's his last name. But yes,

1 (35m 44s):
I asked that question before we started, by the way, was that Jesus' last night now

2 (35m 48s):
Christ is the Greek form of Messiah. And Messiah means chosen one. And when you know that it's chosen one, you suddenly say as a whole lot of movies that use that idea of here is a chosen one. You know, there's someone coming, who's going to save the world. And the Jews believe that a Messiah was coming an anointed one. They actually said, so he's anointed was to be chosen. So they noted the Kings with oil. So yeah, an anointed one is coming who is going to redeem Israel. So he's going to Chuck out. The Romans were going to be the preeminent tribe in the, on the sandpit. That's what's going to happen. And so the disciples say, we think you are the Christ.

2 (36m 30s):
We think you are the chosen one. And so Jesus kind of goes, okay, now that you know who I am, this is what I'm going to do. And he says, the son of man, which is one of the ways he called him self, the son of man is going to be rejected by the religious leaders, arrested, beat up and crucified. And Peter is so shocked at that. He says, no way, that's never going to happen. And Jesus says to Peter, get behind me, Satan, because you've got the devil's plans, not God's plans and that, and the disciples, they, they, the Barbara cords, they go, what the heck does he, is he talking about, what does he mean?

2 (37m 11s):
Because Jesus told these parables, these readers, these stories all the time, and they're always gone. What's what's he saying? And they're don't, this is just another parable, you know? Oh, he's gonna, he's gonna die. He's going to take up his cross. That means there's going to be a Thomas suffering, but he'll win in the end. You know, this is a, it's a metaphorical thing. And kind of Jesus, even guys, guys, I'm telling you straight, I'm gonna,

1 (37m 34s):
What's interesting about him. Cause he profits and you hear like, I've, I've listened to a lot of people with them, you know, saying about, you know, knowing the future and all this, you read Nostradamus Jesus. It's confusing. Like seriously. I mean, you can take anything. That's not right in your horoscope. It depends on which way you wrote it and how you feel on days. But say you're saying that at these point in time, Jay said, I fell as I've given up on the little stories and the, you figure it out parables, I'm going to get hung up on a bit of wood.

2 (38m 2s):
When, when he tells him strike that I'm believe it. When he tells them stories, they want to take it literally now, but you put yourself in their heads because like they said, if he gets crucified, that means he's not a, he's not a godly man. So that just can't happen. It literally can't happen. So it must, it's going to look like it happened. Or so they, and I mean, when it does happen, they still don't get it. They think, Oh crap that went wrong. You know, it's, it's kinda like, well, was he gonna go close? Were we supposed to rescue him?

1 (38m 39s):
You know, we were waiting for him to take off and nothing happened, whatever. Yeah.

2 (38m 42s):
And you know, w Oh, this is, this is the moment he's gonna pull out all his tricks. You know, that he's on the way. And so the decide, like it says the disciples, they went back to fishing, they ran away that he got crucified and it was kind of, but nominee came to his,

1 (38m 59s):
Did I like, from what I remember, he's discipled. Didn't go.

2 (39m 3s):
No, they don't run away. There was one to Mary, John, John was there, there was one, but there was, it was the women. And this is the thing. One of the things about the, there are amazing stories about the gospels is women come out looking great. They're they're at his birth. They're, they're at his death when the men have run away. And they're the first ones to see his resurrection and, and a woman's testimony in those days was not considered good enough for court yet. It's actually the, the women who give testimony to Jesus, it's an elevation of their status to say, you can even trust these ladies.

2 (39m 44s):
You know, these, I'm proud to have women tell the story because they could have very easily blotted that out of the story,

1 (39m 54s):
Dismissed the poetry, this isn't your Knights. Paul's got a jalapeno notes here that on ruining for him as usual.

2 (40m 1s):
There's one Judas is sorry. In the last

1 (40m 5s):
Twenties, I reckon, or since I was at school, like Judas used to be the trader. He was the guy that did all. And there's a lot of different thought now that that wasn't the case. And maybe he was on the team and you know that he had a specific role. I don't want to go down this path throughout because we've got a cross section, but he's a major part. He's the guy that keeps Jesus on the, on the cheek to point him out as this is the guy.

2 (40m 27s):
And I mean, yeah, people have speculated for years, like was Judas thinking, well, Jesus said, he's going to go to the cross. Maybe this is part of the plan. Maybe, you know, was it self, was he just being, I'm going to get what I can out of this and get 30 pieces of silver. Has Jesus gone too crazy?

1 (40m 47s):
Well, I made some beats by saying that someone had to be the guy I've read that Jay Judas was actually he's number one. And he used the word, but in being his number one, he was the one that had to sacrifice him because no one knows what <inaudible>

2 (41m 4s):
They, because he held the, the money bag. So Judas was the treasurer, you know, you don't make your number six treasurer. So he would have been in the, in the, in a crowd. And I mean, history, history, hasn't been kinder to Judas Judas. Yeah. And you know, if God has got this big plan happening and Judas, he drew the short story, we're doing this. We know what's going to happen. And not really, you know, it's all a bit of speculation. The scripture, I suppose, there was more than one sacrifice. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, it's, it's hard when, when you write a story, if you, if you make a character, the bad guy does that, does that make you as the author bad?

2 (41m 52s):
You know, it's kind of, yeah. So Judas what's real. And we'll go back because this idea of the cross being really bad. So in Islamic faith, and so Islamic faith, they believe Judah, Jesus is a prophet and they believe, you know, Moses, they have the same Abraham Moses stories and they get to Jesus. But then they say Muhammad came 600 years later and he was kind of the final prophet. So Jesus was kind of on the way, but Muhammad was, he's the real deal. He's the real deal. So Christians kind of, kind of got it. Right. But they were a bit off. And, but for, for Muslims, the crucifixion is a real problem for the same sort of reasons that we've been talking about in that Holy people could not die on a cross.

2 (42m 42s):
And so in the Islamic faith, and this is what's interesting is, and the Islamic faith is not, it's just like Christianity. It's got different Catholics, Protestants. They're not called that Shiite Sunni. So not all Islamic people believe this, but it's, it's a big theory is that Jesus actually didn't die on the cross because for them, they, they wouldn't believe in the resurrection, but they don't even want to believe in the crucifixion because if Jesus dies on the cross, then he couldn't have been a prophet, then that's humiliation. So the theory was that Jesus and Judas looked alike.

3 (43m 15s):
Ah,

2 (43m 18s):
Yeah, they got Jesus and Judas mixed up. They arrested Judas. Maybe when they kissed, they did a spin in the garden, they arrested the wrong guy. They crucified Judas, Judas took the big fall. Jesus was in hiding because I know what's going to happen to me. Judas died. Everyone kind of thought it was Jesus. You kind of wonder how, and then Jesus sort of comes out of hiding three days later and is like, Oh, you didn't die. I know, you know, you've, you're resurrected. And so that's how these Lamech faith gets around the, the humiliation of, of the cross.

3 (44m 1s):
This is this religion thing that you, well, you can just make it up.

2 (44m 5s):
Unfortunately, I'd say because, and I'll get myself in trouble here. But the Muhammad who was the, the guy who started the Islamic faith, he lived in a community with Christians, Jews and Arabs who had their traditional religions. So more the family religions and there was fighting and all this, and he's kind of going, this is my take on it. This is not what a, an Islamic person would say. He kind of looked at this and guys, how can we go get along? So he kind of took the best from Judaism, you know, bits and pieces from Christianity, put it all together in this Islamic faith and said, this is the Arab faith.

2 (44m 52s):
And what was remarkable is that it actually took, now it took a while to take, and everyone thought he was a bit of a joke for a long time. So he wasn't a popular guy, but eventually he kind of won some merely tree battles. And these L'Amic faith took and took over the Arab world. And what it did is it United the Arab world and made them prosperous. So it kind of worked for them, but what it, what it did, and this is, I suppose, my take again is the Islamic faith misses the grace of the new Testament and goes back to the rules of the old Testament. And so what I would say is even there is actually grace in the old, in the old Testament, but it's obscured by the rules.

2 (45m 34s):
And so often the Jewish faith is seen as do the right thing, you know, get on the right side of God. The grace is a really slippery concept to master. And it's kind of like, you know, a lot of people come to church to just say pasta, just tell me the 10 things I've got to do and I'll do it, you know? And you kind of go, well, he was that easy, buddy. Yeah. If you do those 10 things, you'd send to elevate them as rules. And then you get really narky at people and you become a legalist and know, Jesus actually says, I want you to think about it a bit more and work it out and, you know, develop, you know, what is your, you know, there are good ways to live, but you have to understand them in context, you have to, you know, sometimes if your family starving, it might be okay to steal.

2 (46m 23s):
You know, there's, there's some things where you go, whatever. So somehow Mohamad kind of went back to here's the six pillars do these and you'll be fine. Get rid of that very fairy, gray stuff. That's my big take. Now I'll probably have a fatwa it,

1 (46m 39s):
Okay. Apologies to any followers of these. <inaudible> I've actually asked a couple of people and I haven't been available. So that's been my last few weeks actually. But back to what we, what, you know, when I know they're so crucifixion, so we've got, I mean, at the moment Jesus carried the cross three, he's been betrayed as the Bob says, now he's on Calvary. Is that the that's the mountain or whatever it's

2 (47m 6s):
Gold Gotha was the place. I think it's Calvary. Yeah, the same.

1 (47m 12s):
So I've taken me back and, and then, so he's hoisted up and they have these conjecture as to whether he was nailed or tied up. But I think he was from what the research has sort of said, and to some of the others were taught on because it wasn't the standard way of putting someone on a cross. I don't think just to nine month. Cause you fall off. Yeah,

2 (47m 30s):
You can. So that in all probability, he was probably nailed and tied

1 (47m 35s):
A bit more humiliated cause your

2 (47m 37s):
Body weight. And they, they probably went through the wrist, not the Palm. Cause you would just rip out of you the weapon,

1 (47m 45s):
Like stigmata, same wheel doesn't re we doesn't have any

2 (47m 49s):
And tied you up. Yeah. So in terms of the whole, well, how did you die? You didn't die from blood loss. You know, he'd been whipped, he had a crown of thorns. He would have lost so much blood and, and it wasn't normal that you got whipped and crucified. And so that's probably part of why Jesus died so quickly. You know, he was only on the cross for eight hours, not three days. And so, and this is the stuff where, you know, fast-forward, if you squeamish, he, you are hanging up, you've got two nails through your wrist, which is carrying virtually all of your body weight and this other nail through your, your ankles.

2 (48m 34s):
And if you hold your, if you go on, I suppose, hang from a tree by your arms, you'll soon find that your lungs are really squished. So you're, you're,

1 (48m 42s):
You're donning, right? Yeah. Your

2 (48m 44s):
Body weight is crushing your chest and your diaphragm can't operate. And of course, as you get exhausted, so to you breathing really shallow to take a big breath and you know, if you breathe shallow after all, you know how you feel like I just want to take a big breath to take a big breath. You actually have to put, push yourself up on the nail that's through your ankles. So can you imagine the agony of poop pushing your whole lifting your body weight on this nail in your ankles? So you get your breath, but boy, it must've had some expense. Yeah. Yeah. And so then you go back to hanging on your ankle. So this, this was just not for the faint-hearted and it really was. I don't know if anyone has made the argument that there's a worse way to be, to be killed, but they were after the worst of the worst humiliation,

1 (49m 34s):
It wasn't meant to be as long and painful as an email it's humiliating as humanly possible

2 (49m 39s):
So that it was the biggest deterrent they could, they could think of. And what's really fascinating is even the early church didn't use the cross as a symbol for, for a while that was actually said, no one drew or painted across until all of those who had seen one had died out

1 (50m 2s):
Well. That's well, that's interesting. That makes sense. Doesn't it? Because it's not something you can see is a, an icon, I guess, of something that was so horrific. But I remember saying that a terrible Maine, which was just funny, but it's Jesus preaching to use the saw what was, and God, why are you doing crosses? What makes you think that I'd like a cross? And I sort of giggled a bit of that, but it's yeah. I mean, it's interesting that a form of the HES destruction as such became a symbol of, of him and what he did. I mean, when did that come about?

2 (50m 36s):
And I mean, that is actually the fascinating question. So like I said, no one, they didn't use the cross. Some of the early symbols of Christianity were a fish because <inaudible>, which was fish could stand for Jesus Christ, son of God savior. And they used to sort of draw that on the ground.

1 (50m 56s):
We still have it on the back of their cosmic. I did for awhile. Some others have feet coming out the bottom and it's got a Darwin in it.

2 (51m 3s):
That's right. And so it, I don't know if it was, what's his name? Who's the famous Roman Constantine because after it's about 300 years later, his constant constant time becomes Roman emperor. And he's the first emperor to embrace Christianity. And he had a dream of the cross. He had a vision of the cross in his dream that it was something to be revealed and that Rome had banned crucifix fiction. So because Christianity had started to grow, I think, I don't know exactly why, but they got to a stage where they thought even crucifixions too, too bad,

1 (51m 45s):
They actually said, so they became enlightened. Did they get rough some sort of way still Chuck people into a pit with a thanks.

2 (51m 54s):
And that's what I did. Crucifixion was a bit off. They banned crucifixion, but Constantine had this dream of the cross. So he actually put the cross as a symbol on his shield. And I think he's army shield and he started winning battles. And when you think about it, he comes in army and what do they got on their shield this way on a crucified. So maybe con I don't know if Constantine meant it that way, but that's probably how the enemy saw it and thought flip, you know, these guys.

1 (52m 26s):
So they put it, the French should have checked a guillotine on there, on their sales or something like that.

2 (52m 31s):
Hangman's noose. So at some point, and I actually don't know the answer, but it was yet. Cause if you had seen a real crucifixion, you probably didn't want to remember it. And what's really remarkable is people didn't write about Chris' fixes. I thought this was fascinating that there was a time back in probably the fifties or something where the historical evidence for crucifixions outside the Jesus story was actually fairly skinned. It was kind of like everyone knows Jesus got crucified, but we're not even sure that anyone else did. I mean, it was kind of like, yeah, it's there, but it's not. And it was kind of why is this historical record really empty? And they said there were only two types of people who wrote about crucifixion.

2 (53m 14s):
It was one, the historian, because it's happened. The other one was the comedian. So comedians wrote about crucifixion and used it as the, in the end of the haughty person whose life comes to an abrupt halt with crucifixion. It's like, you know, in some ways the most embarrassing thing for Donald Trump is that he's being taken off Twitter. You know, it's the most humiliating thing. Yeah. You know, if, if, if Trump goes to jail, there's, there's a, his crucifixion. So it was kind of like you had someone like Trump, how you gonna make them into a punchline.

2 (53m 56s):
They got crucified at the end. Ha so,

1 (53m 59s):
But it wasn't kept for Jesus. Was it? That was kept for other people and

2 (54m 3s):
No, I've actually got some graffiti here, so people can't see it, but this is some of the earliest Christian graffiti is there's a picture of a person on a cross with a donkey's head. Right. And there's a guy standing beside him and it's a really rough picture. And this is a pencil drawing of something that was etched on, on a wall

1 (54m 24s):
In Rome. I'll put this up for one, two. Yeah. You can

2 (54m 27s):
Look it up. Alex, Alex <inaudible> it's. And the, the writing says, Alex, here is your God. And what it is is someone taking the piss out of the Christians like Alex, his God is a guy who died on the cross. If you dine across, you are the biggest ass around. And so even Jesus, that's a punchline. So that goes back to the same story. How did across a symbol of torture, humiliation, how did it become a symbol of peace, love, joy? You know, it's the same question.

2 (55m 7s):
How did Jesus the biggest punchline in history, you could say, how the heck did he become the one of the most revered and worshiped people in history? And in some ways, the answer to that question is next episode,

1 (55m 29s):
Because cliffhanger,

2 (55m 30s):
It just does not make sense.

1 (55m 34s):
Is it based on a Roman emperor, his drink that he thought he jumped into the curls.

2 (55m 40s):
He dreamt of a cross 300 years later, but there's the 300 years that fill in in terms of, he had to know about Jesus. If, if Jesus had died like that and never come back to life, he should have been obliterated from history. He should've been forgotten the disciples. Weren't going to write about it. They'd gone back to fishing and thinking we want to get as far away from this story as we can, because we, the, you know, we backed Donald Trump. Well, you know, we backed the biggest idiot loser. Yeah. We, we, we were following a lunatic.

2 (56m 20s):
What does that make us? So, and that's, in some ways, part of the next story is there's this kind of, that's really hard to explain how that came about. Like you could say, well, did one emperor have a dream that might explain, okay, that might push the story along a bit, but there had to be a story there for it.

1 (56m 45s):
Well, this seems like a next episode kind of a thing. So, but before we wrap it up Padre, which have you got anything else you want to mention? I'd probably do.

2 (56m 54s):
Cause before we talk about the next episode, there is that really big question. If Jesus meant it, why, why did Jesus mean mean that, you know, if Jesus meant to die? And I think part of the answer is actually very, very profound in that Jesus. And if you believe he's the son of God, Jesus, and God was making a statement about their solidarity with the least of these it, their solidarity with those people who suffer, God embraces suffering with us. Cause that that line, my son was on a cross and I did nothing.

2 (57m 34s):
How humiliated would I feel? How powerless, how shameful would I feel before everyone in the gods? And here is God saying my son was on a cross and I did nothing.

1 (57m 51s):
This has done in the sand, like a sermon. Yeah. Well, I'll say on this side of things too, sometimes you can write the facts later on in life, depend on how the, you want the story to go. But I do think that there's plenty of good facts in there and all checkups and bits and pieces too, for, for people to have a look at and see the picture we're talking about and whatever else, but whole thanks buddy. Appreciate the heaps. Let's do the next episode. We'll probably do back to back today, in fact, and I'll put one out a week later, but let's see how it goes, but thanks very much for helping me out with this show today. Thanks listeners out there. It's it's always interesting to sort of go through these bits and pieces and figure out why the world is like the world is if anyone does know any followers of Islam out there that want to come in and have a chat, I'm more than keen on our reaching out again to those, but thanks H gang hope you enjoyed it.

1 (58m 40s):
And we will catch up with you next week on no humble opinion.

0 (58m 44s):
<inaudible>.