Ep 43: Jesus lives again! Or did he???

In part 2 of our Easter shows Ryno and Pastor Paul give their very different opinions on the story of the Resurrection of Jesus.
Is it true or just a story told to gather followers??

#nohumbleopinions #straighttalk #sparkplugradio #rynosway #unpopularopinion  #unpopularopinions #podcast #podcastlife #podcastrecommendations #podcastseries #politicallyincorrect #politicalcorrectness #religion #jesus #easter

Transcript

0 (1s):
Hey Ryan here from the podcast. No humble opinions. Well, we talk to interesting people about interesting things. Today. We have our second episode with pastor Paul Clark, and we're going to be talking today about the resurrection.

1 (15s):
<inaudible>

0 (28s):
Pull two shows in a row. Mine what's going on. I've always succumbed to my indoctrinated. Now let's get what's happening.

2 (36s):
I should say. Cause we have sponsored these episodes, but Ryan's not doing too because we sponsored, he actually agreed to do two. And then I said, well, mate, I think we should.

0 (48s):
Yeah. We talked about it. When we did the Christmas episode, you said, Oh, I used to is really good too, because Easter is the real deal. As far as the one for the crucifixion last week, which is hard, hard to argue because colon effects effects a little bit. Yeah.

2 (1m 4s):
Then that's I suppose what I expected. And that's the opening line. I've got what I've got written here. A few historians would, would disagree that Jesus's life ended on the cross. It's a well attested historical fact and, and not remarkable. Really. Jesus didn't do anything. Funky. Jesus dies. What, and this is where we actually ended that last essay, but podcast. But if he died, he should have been lost to history. He, he should have been lost and forgotten because there's, there's probably hordes of, and I think we even know of a few revolutionary Messiah wannabes who were crucified that no one ever taught.

0 (1m 41s):
Totally. It's been plenty of them want to be missile audits and it's nothing new in any religion. So how do you,

2 (1m 47s):
How do you explain how this symbol of torture became a symbol that the cross of, of glory and reverence and really that's what today is? What's your theory, buddy? Okay. So I've actually got, I'm going to say I've got three best arguments for the resurrection and they're not going to be what you were saying.

0 (2m 7s):
Okay. So said <inaudible> a religious way of mind. Tell him, tell him how the story goes. So Jesus has died on the cross bang that's done. Yep.

2 (2m 16s):
Excellent. So, and that's a good place to start. We tell the story. So he dies on the cross and we actually talked about this off air that a Roman soldier, two people, a guy called Joseph <inaudible>, who wasn't mentioned before. And another guy called Nicodemus, who has been mentioned vaguely in the story. They were pretty bold. They went to pilot and said, we want to take the body of Jesus. And there's some reasons why they did that, but to too off topic. So anyway, pilots, a bit surprised because people usually take three days, you know, they can take three days and he's like, he's dead already. So he sends, make sure he's dead. So the soldier stabs him up in the ribs, which would piss his heart out, pause blood and water.

2 (2m 57s):
Which if you look up the medical staff is when you did your blood starts to separate into the, it's not quite true that you know, the white potluck, whatever it is, it's clear fluid, clear fluid at the amniotic and it's not amniotic fluid. It, it separates. And so he stabs him these Romans, then they had to kill someone he's dead. So they first data that's right? So they take him off the cross. They give him to Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus. They go bury him in a, in a, in a newly cut tomb, which is one of the bizarre parts of the story is that the prophecies where he would die as a, you know, as a robber, yet be buried with the rich.

2 (3m 37s):
And so it's one of these funny things because often crucified people were just thrown in ditches into the throne in mass grave.

0 (3m 43s):
Well, but generally weren't, they weren't the highest at the height except to keep the trees in this room

2 (3m 48s):
Are humiliated. So therefore who's going to want to do that. So they put him in this team. It's it's Friday night, it's the Sabbath actually starts for a Jew at sunset. So their new day starts at sunset. So that's different to us. It's not midnight or in the morning. So these guys are they're rushing to get him in the tomb because once the Sabbath comes, you're not supposed to do any work. So there he's, they're putting him in the tomb. They don't get to do all the proper stuff. They roll the stone in front, the, the Jewish leaders, they're a bit worried. The disciples are going to come and steal him because they even say when he was around, he talked about coming back to life and we don't want the disciples stealing his body and you know, making up these stories.

2 (4m 32s):
So the Raymond <inaudible>, We'll put a few gods there. So everyone goes home. It's the Sabbath, nothing happens. So then Sunday morning, and this is why Christians worship on Sunday. Now Sunday morning with Sabbath, for the Jews, you Saturday, Sunday morning, which was kind of like their Monday, first day of the week, Sunday morning, couple of the females, I think Mary Magdalene and Joanne they're walking to the tomb. They're carrying all the spices to do the religious ritual of saying, well, we're gonna spice his body and rapid in its current kind of not mummy fire, but something like that.

2 (5m 12s):
Give him proper burial. And on the way back back there saying, who's going to move the, to the rockets too big for us. And they're kind of walking in, they see that the Rock's already open the soldiers. They're either gone or they're kind of lying there and they want to,

0 (5m 27s):
So those are the questions that I was going to ask. Cause it would have been guards on that team. If they they're concerned about an uprising steal from these, these prophets, these Messiah, they would have had a few days. So they're not sure what happened to the

2 (5m 40s):
What's reported in scripture is that an angel appears and they're freaked. So they run for it. Now, desertion of your post as a Roman was punishable by death. And so they go to the sort of religious leaders. So this is what, and they go, Oh, you know, we're going to get, we deserted our post. We're going to get in trouble. So the religious leaders go, Oh, we'll tell them, we'll cover it up for you. Don't worry. We'll tell them that. You know, it doesn't make sense. Cause we'll tell them the disciples beat you up and you're going, let's still get you still. But you know, it was kind of one of these, what do we do about that? So where, where does that occur?

2 (6m 20s):
Where does that

0 (6m 21s):
Coming up? Because

2 (6m 25s):
Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, I can't remember. It's probably in a couple of them though. They tell the story of the soldiers and how the soldiers had this cover-up story or, or you could actually believe no, no, that's the real story. And the, and the resurrection's the coverup story. So of course, you know, there's some, there's some stories there so that the ladies go in and the, the sh the cloths that Jesus was wrapped in, which was that the shroud of Turin are probably not, but it's empty. And the headpiece is folded up neatly and they go, what the heck's going on stolen. Jesus. Well, yeah. And there's the stories in each gospel. They're a little bit different each time.

2 (7m 5s):
And that's actually at first, you think, Oh, they can't get their story straight, but that's actually, it actually goes to their authenticity because if you you're a police officer, you know, eye witnesses and notoriously bad. Absolutely.

0 (7m 17s):
And if the only way you can get it right, is if he wants you to out the door for him is right. There's this story.

2 (7m 22s):
So the fact that in the four gospels there, they all tell the story a little bit different goes to its authenticity. Cause they could have cleaned it all up and said, Oh man, I've got to make my story, stick with it.

0 (7m 33s):
Jesus. John said, then I guess I'll have to have a crack at that as well.

2 (7m 36s):
Yeah. Yeah. So in one version, Mary sees what she thinks is the gardener, you know, and says, where did they taking his body? But it's actually Jesus. And he, he kind of says, it's me, it's me. And she kind of takes another look and says, and he says, go until I'm gone until the blokes. So Mary Connor runs it,

0 (7m 56s):
Tell us pussies that ran away, fishing

2 (7m 59s):
Runs back. And she finds John and Peter and says he's reason. And they're like, this lady is crazy. You know, she's out of her mind. So they run back to the tomb and they get there and there's no one there and they're kind of going, what's going on. Then they all come back. They're locked in a, in an upper room. We talked about that at Christmas. And Jesus appears in this room and says, peace, be with you. Cause they're shitting bricks. Pardon the language past. Perfect. They're kind of like freaking out what's going on. And Jesus says, you know, peace be with you back.

2 (8m 40s):
Can't remember off the top of my head, what he says, show me the nature. And you know, the story goes, Thomas wasn't in the room. And so they start going around saying, we've seen Jesus. We've seen Jesus and Thomas Scott there's no, yeah. There's no way I'm believing this. Unless I stick my fingers in these, these wounds, my hand up his side, where he got stabbed. I'm not having to borrow these. And so wait glider there in the room is there, Jesus appears and says, Hey, Thomas, put your hands, put your fingers. In my hand, Thomas kind of falls at his knees and makes it very famous confession races, my Lord and my God. And so Jesus, then now talking about Jesus as God, not just whatever. So then Jesus, he's different.

2 (9m 23s):
So it's not just a resuscitation and that's a big thing. This isn't just, I was, I wasn't quite dead. And I woke up and I pushed, pushed the stone away and, and beat up the soldiers. He can appear in locked rooms. He still eats cause they meet him at the beach once and he's cooking fish. And I haven't, I have a meal together, but he he's different. And we, the church would actually say, when we, when we are resurrected, we have a resurrected body, which is different, which can do things that we can't. And it says, the scripture say that he appeared to be four or 500 people, 500 people in this month saw the resurrected Jesus.

2 (10m 9s):
And then after a month they, he took them up to the top of the Hill and sort of said, I got to go because if I physically stay here, it limits what I can do. But if I send the spirit, the spirit can be on all of you and you can be everywhere and I can be everywhere. And so he's, the sanction goes up to heaven. And these disciples start going around the world, telling people, I mean, starting with yeah. So that that's another week later, the spirit comes on them. They can speak other languages. And that's how they get ahead. Start telling the world that this guy, Jesus, who we thought was nothing.

2 (10m 49s):
We end up realizing he's more than everything we ever thought. He's he's not just the Christ. He's actually God come to visit us. So that's, that's the story.

0 (10m 60s):
Let's tear it to beats. Go for it, go for it. Well, I mean, for me now, I mean, it's, I, I think there's a lot of history and a lot of, a lot written about his death and who the Romans and Jews believed he was, which was a criminal and a insurrectionist to whatever you might be able to say. And he had he's follows North stuff. Now for me, it's a really, if you want to make someone a super hero and you wanna make someone lasting for years needs probably not 2000. And I think they've probably done. It exceeded their expectations possibly. Well, you give a good story about how things went afterwards and what sort of happened after that. And that enhances the storyline.

0 (11m 42s):
It's I mean, the scriptures are written what 300 years after phases,

2 (11m 46s):
All the earliest ones were even 15 years as in Paul was writing his letters. 45 Ady Jesus started

3 (11m 54s):
30 ID. So starting to write his letters, 50, 45 ID, 15 years later. And in that he talks about the resurrection, the gospels themselves weren't written until the disciples were either dying or dead. And they were written because, Oh crap, these guys are getting old. Someone's gotta write this down.

0 (12m 13s):
Were the three, the four guys that were the major guys who would that?

3 (12m 16s):
So Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, some Matthew, you know, the best, the best scholarship would say that Matthew was the tax collector that Jesus said to follow him. So in Matthew's gospel, this guy, is it sitting in a text desk? And Jesus says, come and follow me. And he leaves it all and follows him. And that's the guy who wrote Matthew's gospel. Mark is, was not a disciple. So Mark, they think was a young, a younger boy who was actually there at the crucifixion with the, with the ladies has been a nice day after a young fellow. Yeah. But he went around with Peter and was like his scribes.

3 (12m 60s):
So he wrote down Peter's account of Jesus's life. So they believe that Mark, he wrote down either when Peter was still alive, till soon after he died, he wrote down, this is what Peter used to tell Matthew, Mark, Luke, Luke was, again, he wasn't a, an immediate disciple. He wasn't. One of the 12 Luke was, is renowned as a, a doctor. Now doctors back then were probably more like barbers, but educated for their era. And Luke came on the scene and he actually says, I've heard these stories. You've heard these stories. I went in and investigated it. Talk to witnesses, wrote it all down. And here it is. And he did become a, you know, a follower, but said, I've sought to get the best account of this story.

3 (13m 45s):
I can. That's Matthew, Mark, Luke. And John. John is one of the, the John James and Peter who were the, sort of the inner three, probably with Judas and John history records is probably the only disciple to die. A natural death. And Peter was crucified. Peter was crucified, upside down. Simon was beheaded. You know, they, they all pretty much all died except were martyred except John and on, on an Island of Patmos, I think he was exiled there. He wrote the gospel of John. And if you read the Matthew, Mark, Luke are very similar. They're called the synoptic gospels because they're SEMA. John is very different and it's kind of like he said a bit longer to think about this.

3 (14m 27s):
And he's actually, he writes, I suppose, a bit more spiritually. They're just saying, this is what happened, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He's gone. This is kind of what it meant.

0 (14m 35s):
Well, familiar look just, and you know, I'm never doing this sort of stuff just to yuck someone's Yemen and destroy their beliefs on stuff. But much like we discussed in last episode with the crucifixion, like a lot of the time you assign that the, the Jews and the Romans, particularly Jews were saying, well, come on, big guy. Why don't you just jump up now and call on your father, God, to protect you. A lot of stuff. If for me, the resurrection occurred, why did he just leave it at that? If you want to show the world to be a better place and to God, the world to be do unto others. And you know, and, and I love my brother. And so there'd be some places.

0 (15m 17s):
Why would you just appeal to come back from dead appear to just a few hundred people? Why would you not suddenly float across the freaking Rome and say, Hey, Mr. Emperor, or to ontology he's on back now. And he's my wound. And he's my bits and pieces because it's an, and this is the part where someone says, Oh, well, the God works in mysterious ways. Okay. Fair enough. But if you're going to dying as a martyr and having nothing, Jesus was a top dirt. I think a lot of the stuff that he said it and he's written, I think, I think I've said before. I think Jesus and his teachings were fantastic. It's a religion I struggle with because it's become something very different than what he suggested initially or many other religions as well.

0 (16m 2s):
But why would you just stop there if you've suddenly popped up and Mary Magdalen and Joey, and I dunno, she's rocked in there and you've got, Hey, I'm back. Or why would you not be back? What would you go back? Cause how long was he around

3 (16m 14s):
And why it's a month? Why can't we go visit Jesus in a, in a cave in Israel? Why isn't he now? And it's hurting world peace, a good store. It's a good question. And it's one that I've thought about in terms of, wouldn't it be better if Jesus was in the temple in Israel and you could go and visit him and everyone would go, man, you've got to time. It got to believe he's there, but it's funny.

0 (16m 34s):
Yeah. You just got an Jason's is there and it's fine.

3 (16m 37s):
And, and so that is part of the, well, you know, someone like me says, well, if this story is true, what's the logic to doing what he did as opposed to sitting in a cave. And part of it is, and I've done. I actually sat down and did the maths on this. If Jesus could heal people and he's in a cave, well, okay. How many people can he see a day? And I can't remember my math now, you know, a hundred, 200 people a day. How many kids can he see a year? How many could he see in 10 years you do the maths and it would take you a long, long time to see Jesus. In fact, probably most people wouldn't be able to get in the queue.

3 (17m 19s):
I wouldn't bother. Yeah. But so, and then note that, okay. But if he has a church worldwide that actually set up hospitals across the world, millions of people every day are actually, I suppose, brought some sort of comfort healing because of the, the church and its institutions that he set up. So, and that's actually the logic that Jesus says is I have to go. So the spirit can come. And that's what Jesus said, because now, instead of being one of me here, physically, there can be a little bit of me in everyone. And that little bit of me, it's not as good, whatever, but it can make a massive difference overall.

3 (18m 0s):
So that that's, that would be, I suppose, my logical argument,

0 (18m 4s):
We'll say for me, I find it very interesting that, I mean, I get what you're saying, but I'll look at the Catholic church and I think it's a disgrace. And why do I think that because it's so wealthy for one lucky, it is just stop dripping with wealth and power. And, and, you know, you did the Vatican city is a city on its own, a country on its own, which is just full of their wealth. And what good. I want you wealthy people in society, not as a commercial real estate agent. I met many of them and I got up and I put $10,000 something and everyone gives them a golf clap. And it's all he's. So what bloody sheet, what, honestly, if you're worth $25 million, what could you do with that?

0 (18m 51s):
If it wasn't just chasing, chasing the pursuit of more. And I feel, and I'm picking on the Catholic church because that's what I was a member of, but what a load of shit for them to sit there and come to us as school kids and say, put your pocket money into this little box here. And that'll save the poor Africans with mission Australia whilst they're sitting on billions of dollars, just billions, what could they do with that? So that for the spirit coming down, I think the spirits have been pretty severely corrupted for a number of fees. Obviously you're a different part of Christianity. So you that, but this is for me, I feel that the resurrection story is a great story to get interest and to have some, I do feel though, and I, I wonder if the Roman Roman society through concentrating isn't it.

0 (19m 43s):
So yeah, if he hadn't taken it on and decided that Christianity was now his religion, for whatever reason in a dream or whatever, it may be more just be another one that went away. I don't know. Yeah.

3 (19m 54s):
I think it was, it was one of those inevitable rollercoasters that had started or avalanche in terms of Constantine. He just happened to be the one who was, was there as in that would be, you know, it's kind of, if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else this, this, this, you could say this virus was just spreading so quickly that it could have been a pragmatic decision, but of him, I got to get on board or else, or else we'll be left behind, which is actually what happened to the Roman empire eventually is that the Roman empire fell, but the Christian and bike kept going. So I brought Ryan a book it's called for the love of God, how the church is better and worse than you ever imagined.

3 (20m 38s):
And it's exactly that Natasha Moore, John Dixon, Simon smart, they actually went and they document how the church has been terrible, how the church has been good. And I suppose my argument would be, yeah, I agree the church. I mean, people who believe in God, it can give them license to be as terrible as they want, because God justifies it. If you know, if God's for it, I can do whatever. Whereas this book and I would argue, well, if you're not doing it the way God said to do it, then it's, it's not in the name of God. And Jesus is out. He's our example

0 (21m 19s):
At ease and outside in my police career. And also real estate is there's two people I hated working for. One of them will teachers, God love you all, but you professional noodles and you just, I don't know why you hire me to tell me what to do all the time. And that was just mad. And to truth is if you only walked into a house and there were pictures of Jesus all through the house on you, they'd try and not pay me. There you go. That's odd at night. And is that a gross generalization? Yes, but it's, it's earned. And, and I remember I was at a Catholic boarding school at nine. Nothing happened to me, but I saw a lot of poor behavior from, from people that when they're in room, what colors.

0 (21m 60s):
So I waited at all.

3 (22m 2s):
So yeah, no, I mean, and I'm challenged by it. And I mean, part of the thing is one of the things that I get frustrated by as Christians who give God a bad name. When we talk about taking God's name in vain, I don't think it's actually about swearing as much as giving God a bad name by how I live by how I work. If I'm giving God a bad name, then I'm taking God's name in vain. So that's, you know, I, I, I have a love, hate relationship with the church because I can see it at its best and I can see it at its worst.

0 (22m 37s):
But I liked that. I mean, one of the reasons that we get on well, and we can have a chat is the fact that you can see the fire and you can smell a bit of bullshit.

3 (22m 47s):
Oh, flogged you a little. No, no. Okay. Do you believe in the story of the resurrection? Yeah. Yeah, I do. And so I'll, I'll, I'll segue to the, my three biggest pre my, I think what my best arguments for the resurrection. Cause we can, we can argue about, and most of the time, if you look at best arguments for the resurrection, they flip around about, well, did the disciples really hide the body with the soldiers? This was, you know, did he, that I actually think you can muck around with that stuff, but that stuff actually doesn't matter in the end, because if you think about the best argument for captain cook one, you can say, well, here's some historical evidence of his existence, blah, blah, blah. The best evidence for captain cook is that there's a bunch of white people living in Australia.

3 (23m 31s):
Now how the heck did they get here? You know, what, why are they here? And so the best, I want to say the best arguments for the resurrection, not to go down the historical line because the historical evidence there's enough there. If you want to believe it. But there's enough there that, that there's not enough there if you don't want to believe it,

0 (23m 51s):
But that's just religion. And it is a thing that kills me all the time, but you get to the end of the road and someone says, you got to have it.

3 (23m 57s):
And you know, we talk about, I think if, if, if, if God is saying at the end of the day, it is a faith decision, there has to be a plausible deniability. And you can say that's a cop-out, but you kind of go, okay, well, that kind of makes sense because if Jesus really was here and you could go and visit him, we'd have to believe, you know? So anyway, my best argument for the resurrection, I actually think is Western society itself, which, which goes to this argument that you're talking about in terms of the Catholic church has been terrible because,

0 (24m 32s):
And other churches have been too, but that's the one I'm not. So,

3 (24m 35s):
And, and, and this is what I'm going to say is Western society is arguably the most successful world view in history in terms of improving life expectancy, improving wealth, improving equality, care, education, technology, peace civility. So Western society is kind of the most successful society around. And it is a product of living out the values of Jesus a hundred percent. So we have this thing called Western society that only exists because of Jesus. And you think why goes back to it? Why on earth would you base a fundamental worldview and values on a peasant who was crucified, whose own life came to nothing?

3 (25m 25s):
It's like, why would you base how to live your life? How to live, how to run a society based on a lunatic or a lie?

0 (25m 37s):
Well, look, I can't answer that question. I mean, there must've been some charismatic people as well as himself in his own way. W but there must be some people carrying these flag for many, many years after he's demised.

3 (25m 52s):
She's exactly right. They had to be some people who believed he wasn't a lunatic. He wasn't a liar. He was actually the Lord of heaven and earth. And therefore, if you want to succeed in life, you follow what he said. And so that's, I suppose, the, the PowerBar docs or the dilemma is if Jesus, his own life ended in failure, why would you base your life on that? And it's because obviously there were people who profoundly believed that Jesus, his life didn't end in failure. It looked like failure for three days, and then it actually became glory.

3 (26m 32s):
And so that's why I think this is a remarkably good argument for resurrection. If these were dopes, who thought we're going to a religion based on, you know, we, we followed this guy, but he was, you know, he was a fraud a bit, like you said, a cult. Well, a religion is just a cult where the leaders,

0 (26m 53s):
What I said was what's the difference between a cult and a religion. And my best research that I've looked up, says that in a cult, there's a guy at the top of the top of the pyramid, who knows it's all bullshit. And in a religion that God died.

3 (27m 7s):
So that guy died in Christianity. But those people around him, they believed he was, they fundamentally believed. That's what that funny. They're worshiping this donkey head on a cross. They, they believe this guy was the Lord of heaven and earth. And if we follow his rules, if we follow his way of living, it will ultimately end ending glory. It will end with, you know, not just a better world and a better society, but it will end in eternal life.

0 (27m 42s):
Okay. All I okay. I'm not, I don't believe in the resurrection, but what is, for me, like, I, <inaudible> a very caring, charismatic guy who was doing things differently than anyone else had ever done them and created a following through doing that would not that be good enough to kick off a grass fire if you like of belief and of, you know, following his way that then after the stories of his

3 (28m 15s):
Followers, he must've been must, must've

0 (28m 17s):
Been something magical and something because why, why are they sorry, brother? Why are there so many religions why there's so many different faiths in different entities? And I mean, I don't even know

3 (28m 30s):
Yeah. How other faiths work. Yeah. And I think, unfortunately, I'm going to say that's a question for another day because we won't get the resurrection stuff and I get your argument. Okay. Some people were paying attention to what Jesus said, and although he died, they said, you know what? He was right. You gotta be now. And so they started this following. And so they looked back and said, well, he must've actually been pretty remarkable, even though he died, I suppose it's the probability of, would anyone do that? And part of, part of what I would say is we, we have forgotten how foreign and how different his way of looking at the world was. So, which I agree with.

3 (29m 10s):
And so for, for someone to pick it up and say, let's try this. You would have to be as full hat is anything. But the fact that, that they weren't even written down, you know, you would have to have, how do I even have what he's written down? So this is, there's a guy called Tom, Tom Holland, who happens to be the same name as the actor did Spider-Man. And he

0 (29m 33s):
Wrote, he wrote this book, great

3 (29m 36s):
Book called dominion. Now he grew up as a fan of Roman soldiers stuff and thought Roman society is the best thing. When was this written? Oh, I need three, three, five years ago. Okay. And so he, he thought, I want to become a world expert at Roman culture. And he did. And he he'd been brought up is an English man. And he was brought up in the church and thought, well, this is stupid. And he's his worldview was Roman society was the peak pinnacle of human existence. And then Christianity came along and spoilt it and, you know, Christianity taken out, took up. And so he became one of the world, renowned experts at Roman culture.

3 (30m 16s):
And as he went in and, and learned more and more about Greco Roman culture, he came to the conclusion that, Oh, crap, I've been wrong. Greco, Roman culture is not like our culture at all. It is brutal. It is foreign to us. It is horrible. It is actually the Christians who came and saved Cracker right. And culture. And that way he, you know, he would admit it cause he's not a Christian. He admits to his chakra and we are not Greco-Roman. We are, we are Judaic and Christian and all things like humility was not a virtue till after Jesus, someone like Trump, he actually represents the Greco-Roman worldview, which is still see in Russia and all different parts of the world that the strong man.

3 (31m 7s):
Yeah. The strong man is the one who's, who's powerful. It doesn't matter about truth. It's all about power. Whereas this guy called Jesus died humiliating in death. And they, everyone would have said, if you died in war, if you died in battle, if you died in a Juul, you deserved it. There was none of this pleasure for the victim. No one cared about the victim. If you were a victim, that's cause you deserved it full comma. Whereas we have this value. We value victims. We see humility as a virtue and it goes directly back to the story of Jesus and sort of how did these things become virtues when Jesus died.

3 (31m 55s):
And it sort of only makes sense. It's because he actually Rose and it shows that humility was actually a stronger power than death. Humility was a stronger power than the brutality of Rome. And there's a whole bunch of things in terms of how we value Christian in what we value children in Western society, Jewish historian, Giza vermis. He says no one had ever considered children as objects of admiration to Jesus came along. Jesus said, women are women as well. And that's, it's quite remarkable for its time that the gospels are some of the most, Jesus never puts women down.

3 (32m 35s):
He never treats them badly. In fact, like I said, they get elevated as the witnesses, the resurrection, this I've talked, we've talked about this personally, before the sacred, sacred, secular divine, sacred secular divide. These are all things that trace themselves back to Jesus equality. Charity. Charity is not something we have. The separation of charity is not something that's common outside the Western world. It is there and the Muslims grabbed them, but it actually does not make sense. Why would I help someone outside my family? Why would I help someone out so much? My tribe it'll it'll make me worse.

3 (33m 17s):
Why do we call our prime minister and minister? Which means servant, why do we call our public servants? Servants? Why would your bet you base your system of government and leadership, which we do on a guy who got nailed to a cross and died. Why would we do that necessarily?

0 (33m 39s):
We have to be because he Rose from the dailiness in a supernatural fashion.

3 (33m 44s):
No, not necessarily, but I suppose that's what I'm saying is it is, it is a really big bridge to jump to say, here is some idiot who everyone would have said was either a lunatic or a lie because we understood. If you get crucified, the gods are saying you're you're, you're nothing. And yet we say, well, let's just suspend that for a moment. Let's take everything he said, and let's base our world on that and think it's going to go, okay, like that is a huge, who's going to do that. All right.

3 (34m 26s):
Is there anyone else in the history of human beings that

0 (34m 30s):
Has been resurrected in the same manner?

3 (34m 34s):
As far as I know, no. Not like Lazarus in the story of the Bible. Lazarus dies and Jesus doesn't go and visit him. Everyone's saying, Oh, those are sick. You better go visit. MTS says Nana and Lazarus dies. And Jesus goes there. I think in four days they used to believe the spirit stayed with the body for three days. So because people did come back to life every now and then, because they, they weren't actually,

0 (34m 56s):
Well, there's a lot of history with that with bill ringer and all this stuff. Cause a lot of tie the bell around you stay excited. Just you wake up.

3 (35m 5s):
They didn't have as sophisticated. I'm surprised that it has cut. Someone's head off. That'll make sure. And so Lazarus comes back to life, but it's a resurrection. It's a resuscitation it's mouth to mouth. He comes back to life and he's going to die again. Jesus. I mean, this is the remarkable thing. We as Christians, we crazily believe that Jesus has come back to life and he's still alive in bodily form in heaven. So that there's that belief Orthodox Christian belief is that Christians believe I'm going to give you my second one because I think I love this one. My second best argument for the resurrection is, is Ryan Nelson.

3 (35m 48s):
Oh, you best argument for the resurrection, even though you don't believe in it, even though you wouldn't call yourself a Christian and that's because if you were in India, Iran, Indonesia. And if those people came and met you, they would say, you're a Christian. And you say, hang on a sec. I'm not a Christian. I don't go off. Certainly Christian values. And yeah, they would say you're a Christian. You are living the values of this crucified. My men, we know because we live in societies where we don't live those values. And that's the other book I've got.

3 (36m 28s):
There's an Indian guy called Visho mango. Waldy the book that major world. And he's an Indian guy who says, if you live in India, you understand what Christianity is better than Christians.

0 (36m 41s):
Well, cause you can watch it from the exterior. That's right. Okay. Thank you.

3 (36m 46s):
And that's, that's something you, a living, walking Testament to the resurrection because just about all your values come from Jesus. And why would you do, how did that happen? Why will you do that when you don't believe in him? And it's because you are a product of this, this transformation that hit the world, that it is really, and you can make the argument and you have that, you know, well maybe someone just worked out that what Jesus said was good, but boy, that's a hard argument to make. Whereas if Jesus did rise again here, you had this community who fundamentally believed this guy. He's words are the basis of the universe.

3 (37m 28s):
So if we base our life, if we base our society on that thing,

0 (37m 33s):
That'd be better. All right, let me, let me give you my rebuttal.

3 (37m 38s):
Okay? I feel that

0 (37m 40s):
Religion, your personal religion is 99% of the time based on where you're born

3 (37m 45s):
And what your parents believe. Now,

0 (37m 48s):
People do convert. And I convert because of belief that they've, they've checked out a religion and they feel that that is better suited for what they want. Other people do it for marriage. Some people might do it for money and power. I don't know,

3 (38m 2s):
But I

0 (38m 4s):
Don't understand other religions well enough to speak of them with the guy, the Indian gentleman near who's written that book who says he understands it from the exterior. If I was born in India, I probably wouldn't have Christian values. As he probably doesn't know he is a Christian. If he did

3 (38m 20s):
Well, for instance, there is enough Christianity in India.

0 (38m 22s):
If you look in some of the, the probably darker parts of the middle East or Africa that have different belief systems. And unfortunately a lot of them do seem to be Islamic well, from what I've seen, it's they don't think the same way. Now, if I was born in Iraq at the moment, I would probably be thinking the same thing as they think. And if you want to hang some people off and excavated go your heart. So that for me, I think, right, I think the teachings of Jesus have massively influenced the Western world. And to a degree created the white operates. We're not big on dictatorships will not be gone cruelty particularly anymore.

0 (39m 5s):
And we're not, you know, although it occurs at higher levels, when we find out about it as a, as a society, we don't, condign it particularly, we suggest it's not the best way to go about things. It is interesting for me seeing the rise at the moment of the far-right and the far-left, but the far right professors to be Christian professes, to have God on their side, as every fighting Western society civilization in the last thousand years has professed to do. I've sat there and read a lot about the French and English fought each other for centuries. And both of them were praying to the same God.

0 (39m 47s):
So, you know, it's, I think it's for me, it's where you came from and the beliefs that you were putting. Yay. I was brought up a Christian and a Catholic. And so we can have these discussions because I went to RA classes twice a week and I know I know enough to be dangerous, but it's, but for me personally, apart from maybe some Buddhism that I know a little bit, no, but I see the teachings of Jesus Christ to be wonderful. And if they were put into full effect by religions and by countries in government, that would be amazing. We'd all lived in, live in some utopia, which would be amazing, but they never do it.

0 (40m 30s):
You never quite get there because

3 (40m 31s):
Not, I can't please everyone all the time. No. And I mean, I think that that's actually a fundamental belief of Christianities that as hard as we try, and this is the old Testament, as hard as we try to make utopia, we never get there. And that's the story is that's why Jesus, God, in Jesus had to come and do it himself because we, we could never do it. We were never perfect enough. So I suppose I'm not making the

0 (40m 56s):
Argument that you just

3 (40m 59s):
Happen to be a Christian. Cause you were born here. I could have used anyone's name, but yeah, I appreciate what you're saying is that I like my line. I'll read it anyway. Your life is a fan boy, you know, shine to resurrection.

0 (41m 12s):
I'm getting a, Jesus is my, what is my homeboy? Because I suppose, yeah, we can fluff around with the

3 (41m 22s):
Historical evidence, which will only get us so far. But when, when you stand back

0 (41m 26s):
And think, Whoa, look

3 (41m 28s):
At our society. Now I understand what you're saying in terms of there could have been, you know, a great educator Russo and I, I don't know that this happened to him and you know, he could have lectured at universities and people respected him, et cetera. And then at the end of his life, he was, he murdered someone, committed a crime and was, you know, and so his name was in shame, but we still look at his teachings and go, Oh, okay.

0 (41m 51s):
Oh, can I give you someone on that? I've thought during this conversation about Gandy now daddy was a man of pace. Primarily he did a lot of things with no power as a peasant because he gave up his, he was a lawyer from a wealthy family, from what I recall. And he gave up all those trappings to do a lot of research. If you look right into it. And he had certainly had his filings with some infidelities and some other bits and pieces as did Martin Luther King, if you want to go down that path as well. But again, he was a pretty extraordinary human as well. And he did a lot of good as a peasant and as, as sort of not searching for power, but giving it up and the sacrifice of, of power can be very powerful if you do it properly.

3 (42m 40s):
Yeah. And so, yeah, I hear what you're saying is you've got a great man who was flawed, who has been someone that we've followed to a certain extent, but no one, no one calls him Lord and no one calls Martin Luther, Lord Martin Luther King. And in fact, if you look at both their lives, Martin Luther King was a very well-known Christian and Gandhi got a lot of his, his such a ganja, his operandi of nonviolent confrontation from, from Jesus himself. And he said similar things to you. I like your Christ, but I don't like your church. And, and so, yeah, there's so far, you can take that argument in terms of saying, well, somehow someone extracted the essence of Jesus out and then later on, they made him Lord.

3 (43m 34s):
But if you look at the way the story goes, no one would have written it down, except that they actually did believe he was a little, you know, the Lord stuff comes first. And that's where that, you know, that donkey graffiti, that's really early graffiti's, here's this ass on a cross and you think he's gone. And it was because they, they believed he was God, because of this resurrection that it actually empowered that worldwide transformation

0 (44m 2s):
You signed it. It took the resurrection for people to finally get, Oh my God, he's

3 (44m 6s):
That, this, that what he said was true, that they couldn't dismiss it because if he dies on a cross, you just dismiss him. He's an, a crook and a crank. And you, you, I mean, maybe that's like, Oh yeah, he got some things, right. But am I going to base my life on that? And that, that is the big thing is that the disciples who had been humiliated, all of them died saying one we've him, he's alive. And to seize it, isn't Lord Jesus is Lord. You know, that's often the acute for that. And so, and that's probably, you know, part of my third thing for the resurrection is the way that it is is changed.

3 (44m 48s):
People is these guys died for this thing. And it was that, that generation, I mean, they, their lives were transformed. Peter went from this kind of, that, that macho Trump ism kind of guy to, okay, I'm going to be a rock that people can build a church. You know, I'm going to be that servant leader, which is, you know, Jesus, the way we see leadership in the West is because of Jesus. The way that we evaluate our leaders generally is because of Jesus. And I mean, that's what Tom Holland said is that the values that we have are just so Christian.

3 (45m 31s):
And in fact, the criticism that we put to Christianity, the criticism that you put to Christianity is actually that it's not Jesus enough. And I wouldn't kind of agree with that. And you kind of go, how does that happen? How can you have this guy who dies on a cross who were suddenly saying, you know what his word is true than anything else. Some of the, some of the worldviews that we had, the reason that the West has believed, has believed in progress was most societies believed in a cyclical way of seeing things like the cycles of the seasons. Everything was in this endless loop, but what it meant was they, they saw the world that you could, you couldn't progress.

3 (46m 16s):
Everything just returned to normal, the Jews, which then went into the Christian Christians. They saw that there was a beginning and an end, an alpha and a Amiga and I, and as ed. And so they actually believed in progress. They believed you could change. You could improve, you could grow. And that's actually a fundamental value of Western civilization, you know, progressive progress. And so that's why technology is in the West. It came from, from the West much more than any other places, other places discovered stuff, but they never kind of went anywhere with it because it was kind of this, this worldview that kept them, everything returns, everything goes back to the way it was, was the West saw progress.

3 (46m 56s):
Now you could say that's meant we never climate change cause we've exploded the world.

0 (47m 1s):
Well, I'll guide argue a little bit on that in the fact that a lot of Asian countries would, would feel that it was unreasonable suggests that, I mean the Chinese and the Japanese were quite far ahead at some points in time.

3 (47m 12s):
Yeah. And that's what I'm saying. They had, they had writing long before we did, they had gunpowder, they had all these things, but it never went anywhere. And that's part of the, and see they had writing, but it was the West that actually said people need to learn to read and write because all these things that happen in other parts of the world were kept to the rich and kept the elite. It was actually in Christianity where they said, because we have this different worldview because their worldview was that, that Roman one, unless you're at the top of the pyramid, you can't be saved. And so everyone else is just fodder, human chattel. As they called it.

0 (47m 51s):
They not interested in European union in the may of dissolve made. Sorry. That was unreasonable. The desire for churches over the centuries to convert other religions to their own belief. But you say a lot of crusades are very interesting to discuss even worse. If you're looking to going into the Americas, both at the South end in North Korea as well. And they really might not. And our own, our own people here, our indigenous people here that were just basically, you will act out what they are because they were Haven.

3 (48m 24s):
So this is this book that I gave you. Well, the reality is that is actually the default way for humans to react. We live in tribes. You, you look after your own tribe and you fight everyone else. And so there's actually nothing remarkable at all about anyone coming in, conquering a land that happened all the time. What is unremarkable is when people don't do it. Okay. When people actually the fact that Christianity and this is where this book, Christianity has this, this effect on societies where they want to live the default way.

3 (49m 8s):
We want to come and conquer. But the Christian in us says, we can't go all the way. And it was, I was talking to someone the other day. It was the Methodists out in the Bush who actually brought the indigenous people together. I mean, our emissions, they were, it had their own effect, but they actually saved cultures. They saved languages because they actually believed these people are children of God, to these people deserve to hear the good news. We need to say it in their language. So they actually pitch it in Jara was the first indigenous language written down. And it was so they could write the Bible in it. So I totally agree.

3 (49m 49s):
It's it's the humanity in Christianity that comes out. What is remarkable is that Christianity has actually stopped us being as bad as we should have been or could have been like India is a classic case where,

0 (50m 2s):
So let me hold you up for one second. I think that's the best while you've answered the question in now in our cut layers together here, because that's, I think it's a lot easier to be bad than it is to be good. And for whatever reason, you decide to be a better person, be that for gain or for belief or whatever it is. I think I'd have to agree that the teachings of Christianity like Jesus Christ wouldn't have w R B impact on how people strive to be better. Because as much as people say, Oh, this is a terrible term. That's bullshit. We live in the greatest time that humanity's ever witnessed.

0 (50m 42s):
Currently. It's the most peaceful, it's the most prosperous, it's the most equal as so much of that you can pick and choose, but it is in general. So I agree entirely with why you answered that question. And I think, you know, I think, and I think dad is an awesome part of religion. I think that's great part of the teachings, it's the corruption, all that.

3 (51m 6s):
And, and in some ways it's, it's not, yeah, Christianity, doesn't religion or Christianity, doesn't start from perfect. It actually starts from devils and it makes us not as bad as we can be. And like you said, that is, what's actually remarkable about this. So just to finish this off, cause my last, you know, probably my best, what is the best argument for the resurrection? And this is where I'm going to get all mystical, because one is, you know, we have this worldview that is really hard to explain from a crucified loser, but it makes sense from a resurrected Lord. So that's that, but this one is like I said, Christians, believe this really weird stuff, that there is still a Jesus who's alive.

3 (51m 54s):
And, and, and in heaven, bodily and this spirit, and it goes back to some stuff I said really early on about ethos, pathos and logos in terms of, we usually want to logic ourselves to these answers. But in some ways you have to feel it. And it's that we still believe that we can connect with the resurrected Christ. So is Jesus still alive? Why don't you try talking to him? So this is where I'm going mystical. There's so many people who have gone and said, God, Jesus, I need you.

3 (52m 37s):
And so many people across history have said, I have met in some trends and trends, dental way, Jesus, because he's still alive. And so that's something you can test. It's hard to test history. It's hard to test the culture stuff, but if you're out there thinking, well, do I want to believe in this stuff? That's the way to experience a psychic God, if you're real, if you're out there,

0 (53m 7s):
You're going to say, well, I've never experienced anything like that. And I I've seen a lot of misery. And you know, as a copy, you do, I've been unfortunate in my family to lose parents young and lose a son and have a lot of the other bits and pieces that go along with it. I've got no, I've got my brother and an auntie left basically from the first two, you know, the closest ones. And that's it. I, I think belief is a wonderful thing. If you do the right thing with it, I think if you treat it as a, a goal and a wonderful way of living your life, that's fantastic. If you believe, all right, me, try to explain these.

0 (53m 48s):
But you talking about martyrs. We were talking earlier about as if the disciples saw Jesus resurrect and they knew it to be, so then their martyrdoms, nothing because you got no fear. Why would you have to beat? Yeah, but it's, it's not, something's going to happen. So you often often say to people that, you know, people throw the word bravery on too much. If you are not scared of something, then you are not brave. Okay. It's just not a thing to have bravery. You must be fearful of that act and what might happen after that.

0 (54m 28s):
So believing in something the solidly and absolutely 100% can be wonderful, but it can be dangerous too. Absolutely. And I think that people can use it in their own way. Christianity has been used as a weapon, plenty of times in society and steel East to this day, you get the, the Oklahoma bomber was, you know, from my readings on it. And if I'm sorry, everyone good was quoting scripture flat out and saying that, you know, that all these, this is the way in that you know of. We must turn this tide and all these bits and pieces and, and killed hundreds and hundreds of innocent people for nothing.

0 (55m 9s):
So

3 (55m 9s):
I'm happy to say, as I did before peop people are at their best and at their worst when they follow God, because God gives you license to ignore rules and I would keep going back. That's why I think you have to be grounded, not just in God, but in what does that God look like? What does that God stand for? And as I've, I think I've said to you many times, you know, Jesus said, if you don't love your brother, you can see you can't love God. You can't see. So if we're going around doing things that aren't loving, it's not God. And it's just us going back to that human nature and putting God on it. So we don't feel so bad so we can justify our behavior.

3 (55m 51s):
I mean, that's, that's unfortunately I suppose the cost we live with and that's this book, you know, the church is worse, better and worse than you ever imagined. At the end of the day, you've kind of got to say, well, has the church as flawed as it is, has it been better for the world than the world, without the church? And I suppose this book and you've even, you've in fact made that argument. We live in the best of times and it's because we live, we live off the backs of Jesus. We kind of no longer believe in. And the, the ethic we use to critique the church is saying, it's not Jesus enough.

3 (56m 34s):
And I suppose I'd say go the whole way and say, well, okay, I need to be Jesus. And if I need to critique myself, I've got a question for you. Yep. So you

0 (56m 44s):
Believe in the resurrection and you feel that that was the reason why Jesus is. So his longevity has been so amazing because he did this magical thing, not taking the piece at all. Like it was, you know, I'm sorry, mystical, whatever you want to say. I'm sorry if I think he's a cool cat and I don't believe that, is that better? Get my drift. Like, I don't need him to have reason. I believe. I think the stuff that he taught was fantastic

3 (57m 17s):
People in my church who would say that I believe in Jesus, but I don't think I'm leaving the resurrection. And does that make you better?

0 (57m 26s):
Well, does, does that make my belief a belief in, in his, in his teachings? Because I don't know. Sorry, I don't need religion. I think the goal was cool. And I think a lot of other stuff that has been done by other leaders in our societies is super cool as well. Does that, do they need to be a spiritual mystical act? Well, not for me.

3 (57m 52s):
Yeah. To follow. And I mean, I would say I understand what you're saying as in there's there's books. I read from people that I go, Oh, I'm going to put some of that into my life. I think for me, I would say at a completely logical level, I actually don't think it works. And what it does, it leaves the door open for you. And maybe that's a door that you want left open for you to say, well, this stuff's okay, but I'm not going to go with that stuff and do that. Yeah. And that, that's probably right. Whereas if, if you do say, okay, Jesus was the resurrected son of God. I, I can't discount stuff.

3 (58m 35s):
So when Jesus says, love your enemies, I'm not a really don't want to do that. But you know, he said it, so I've got it. So that puts me in a place where I'm saying, I've got to live that now at the same time, that can be dangerous because what if he said something stupid?

0 (58m 55s):
I was about to ask you that, like, there's a lot of stuff in the Bible that is outdated. A lot of stuff in

3 (58m 60s):
The old Testament that I'd say, I don't want

0 (59m 2s):
To. I think the old Testament gets brought up too often. As far as that being a belief. I think that is an ancient belief. And for me, Christianity as is, is it sounds crossed, but that's Christianity for me, everything old Testament is a whole bunch of whatever. It's interesting readings and stuff that before, except that came before. And you can believe now if you want, but for me, old Testament stuff, but even in new Testament, maybe not as much, but these things in there that probably don't correlate with our lives

2 (59m 34s):
Going out in terms of Paul. So Jesus never did, but, and some Paul wrote about homosexuality and how that's an abomination. And that's, that's been huge in the, in the world in terms of saying, and that's why a lot of Christians struggle with accepting homosexuality, accepting people, accepting same-sex marriages. It's really because of kind of two verses that Paul wrote

0 (59m 58s):
<inaudible> in that burger, the whole system for the whole system up for now.

2 (1h 0m 5s):
Well, I, I think part of, part of religion, a part of Christianity, he says, you cannot do this alone. Jesus. While we're saved as individuals, we are saved into a community like the church is the body of Christ and an individual. Christian is actually an oxymoron. And part of that is because we do need a tribe to keep a sensible. We do need the wisdom of the group to say, you know, I can go off and find one verse and I'm going to live this. But if you've got the wisdom of a community going, Oh, hang on a sec, let's understand this in its history. Let's understand it in its context.

0 (1h 0m 45s):
Is that a bit of a city and have a good outlook? It yourself, Paul, hang on. Yeah.

2 (1h 0m 48s):
Yeah, it is. And we don't like that. We don't like being held accountable and we're, we're our own little Pope's. We want to be in charge of stuff. But you know, Christianity would actually say, you need to be part of a community. You need to. I mean, our political system is based on no one person having all the power. The governor general is actually the most powerful person in Australia, but it is a symbolic role. Yeah. And you kind of, it's, it's an amazing system, but it's based on Trinitarian theology, which actually says you have three bodies, no one body has all the power because they hold each other accountable.

2 (1h 1m 32s):
And that's why we have the Senate, the, the house of reps. And then you've got the judiciary. No one place has all the power. They actually hold each other. Right.

0 (1h 1m 45s):
Count on that. And that is unusual in the world. As far as the society wants to get it

2 (1h 1m 50s):
Biblical. It is a system of government based on this Judeo-Christian worldview that you kind of go, wow. And I suppose that's why for me, I'd say nothing else has worked better than geez. You know, why would I say Jesus has to be Lord rather than Jesus has to be a good bloke. One is because he claimed more than that. If, if, if a guy goes around, Jesus said some pretty remarkable things

3 (1h 2m 20s):
That if anyone else said you lock them up, either in prison or in a mental asylum. So you're kind of going, I would struggle to find anything Jesus said in the gospels, Paul write light, lighter wrote about homosexual, but I would struggle to find anything that Jesus said in the gospels that I would say, I think he's wrong. You know, I think would lead to pain and suffering of masses of people. It might mean lead to your own. Short-term, you know, suffer, suffering for the greater good. Yeah. So that's whereas if Jesus, himself, and this story happens in the gospel, Jesus is he's teaching and he's healing and the Pharisees, again, this guy's evil.

3 (1h 3m 8s):
This guy has got a demon in him and his family come and they come in to get him because they're saying this guy is, he's gone off his tree. Jesus is mad. And so Jesus is in this story that the religious people are saying, he's evil. His family is saying, he's a lunatic. And it's kind of like, where else do you go? How can you say this guy said all this stuff that I want to base my life on. That is my created the best society we've ever seen yet. He was, you know, he's you people said he's a lunatic or a liar. You know, it's, that's where I expose for me.

3 (1h 3m 50s):
How can you say, well, I'm going to discount that stuff and just say, I'll take all the good stuff, but anything that gets a bit spiritual,

0 (1h 4m 1s):
I'm going to start wrapping up soon. But in sign that what I want to try the last word at all. But what interests me in that is that out of those, right? Say Jesus in your belief is alive and well in, in, in his heavenly area, wherever that might be, right hand of the father, all that stuff. So the homosexuals that have been as, as a section of community that had just been copped at heart for hundreds and hundreds of years, because of two sentences that Paul said, yeah, I've got to ask why didn't Jesus guy, by the way, wasn't real flash that beaten.

3 (1h 4m 38s):
That is a great question. Actually, it actually goes to exactly why, why did this, why is this the way that Jesus chose

0 (1h 4m 47s):
To do it? If Jesus

3 (1h 4m 50s):
Is going to redeem the world, because fundamentally God's ultimate aim. If you're a Christian, is that he wants to live in relationships with us forever. Why didn't Jesus? Just go, okay. If sheep, sheep, you guys are up here, I'm now part of it. It's probably to ex explain. There's, there's some sort of spiritual transformation that has to happen in us. That can't happen in us except through this leap of faith. You know, it's kind of like there is, there is some transcendent thing has to switch in us that can't happen except for this button, why the cross? And it actually goes exactly to that question is the cross. Like I said, in that, you know, our last thing is Jesus's absolute affinity with the suffering cause I, and this is going to be a bit controversial in Christian circles.

3 (1h 5m 37s):
I believe it's not just people who believe in Jesus, who are going to be raised to eternal life. If anything, the cross is saying that justice will be done in the end, justice will be done in that Jesus. He is suffering with all those who suffer. So all those homosexuals who were lynched, all the black people who were lynched, the people who died in the Annie, in the ghettos, anyone who is suffered Christ is suffering with you. And he's saying one day, just as I was vindicated, you will be vindicated. One day justice will be done and be seen to be done so that you have been killed, tortured, spat on victims of domestic violence.

3 (1h 6m 25s):
Children who've been abused. God is gonna raise you up and say, it is good. And you are welcome because I have an affinity with the victim. So it's not just about saying, well, if you happen to believe in me, you're going to get the good stuff.

0 (1h 6m 43s):
So that was the old teaching. But I, yeah, I think it's going to be now, but my dumb, well, that was a, now you spoke about being welcomed is based is coming up, buddy. So what has the record, if you're not in church, got for people who want to be a part of something, want to be a part of belonging to HR, or I said, so what do you got going on, man?

3 (1h 7m 7s):
Yeah. Well, apart from Sunday morning worship, which is probably the easiest way in, we actually have a youth group on a Friday night, we have a playgroup that meets five mornings a week at our church. It's actually people say, who come, who aren't part of our church say, this is the best play group I've ever been. A part of. My wife runs it, but it's a welcoming place it's organized. And it just supports kids. So there's play groups. There's groups for seniors. There's no reason to be home alone. There's groups out there. I mean, the church is one of them. So yeah, we've got, like I said, playgroup youth group, seniors groups, there's a quilting group.

3 (1h 7m 50s):
There's a camera club that made there. There's lots of activities happening at our church. Even if you say that about the resurrection stuff, Jesus,

0 (1h 7m 59s):
Jeez dipole. But the thing with tribe and whatever as well, I'll get these people that say, Oh, there's no way except accept me. That's just not true. And I think, I think from what you guys, he poles pretty easy cook guy and we come and have these chats, even though we choose to disagree. We, sorry, we, you know, we can disagree happily together, whatever, if you're feeling lonely and if you need someone feel free, pop down in your own church and, and silos, all, whatever makes you happy, whatever floats your boat, go quilting, have a good quoting session to yourself and do whatever I'll personally go to the pub mate. Thanks Paul. I really appreciate it, buddy. Guys have a happy Easter, which I think, I think this is the last one for us here.

0 (1h 8m 39s):
If it's not, well, I'll bring another one in for you at some point in time. Anyway, Paul, thanks for your assistance mite. And for your book that I've got to go and read now, I suppose I don't know how much of a radio will say. Here we go. Oh, it used to be a good one, but I don't know. Anyway, thanks. Another episode of no humble opinion is done and dusted have a great time with the people and thank you for

1 (1h 8m 59s):
<inaudible>.