Ep: 36 The Myths of Christmas

Xmas..... It's not what it seems! Traditions have been stolen from a variety of sources and some were simply made up. Ryno and Pastor Paul get down to the facts around what is truth and what is Myth around the international celebration of Christmas.

#xmas #christmas #jesus #santa #nohumbleopinions #straighttalk #rynosway #unpopularopinion  #unpopularopinions #podcast #podcastlife #podcastrecommendations #podcastseries #politicallyincorrect #politicalcorrectness

Transcript

0 (0s):
Hey there, Rano here from the podcast. No humble opinions. We talked to interesting people about interesting things today. I have pastor Paul Clark in, and we're going to have a chat about some meats surrounding Christmas.

1 (14s):
<inaudible> great to be back.

0 (31s):
Thank you brother. As those that may remember, Paul was on an episode with us once before, where I sat there and had a crack at religion and he gave me some good information on the other side of things too. And it was great fun. A lot of people really enjoyed that. Actually, he said, that's cool. So Paul's come back. He said, let's have a chat about some things around Christmas that aren't quite as they seem sometimes. So we can do a bit of that. And we'd rather we are okay before we do that. And I just want to have a little minute autonomous to that. A big thank you to Tim from Awan media, Tim and I aren't working together now. I one's gone a different direction. They're doing some very cool stuff in the tourism area. Timmy gave me the opportunity to start doing this podcast, which I really enjoyed doing.

0 (1m 14s):
And I hope some other people get some enjoyment out of as well. He's taught me a lot and I thoroughly appreciated everything you did for me. So thank you brother. I miss you. Ideally I am flying solo these days, but I'm learning quickly. So a big thanks to everyone for everything you guys did brought out Paul Christmas, the 25th of December, a little bit of bullshit, isn't it? Yeah,

2 (1m 38s):
Yeah. It, it, it, it, it really is. We really just don't know when Jesus was born, but we definitely know it. Wasn't the 25th of December. And that's basically because in the Northern hemisphere, it's winter and you wouldn't be out in the fields with your sheep. So one of the essential parts of the story is that the shepherds were out in the fields looking after their sheep and in the winter we're in Australia, we don't get cold, cold winters. If you don't leave your sheep out in the snow, you actually have them into the barns in the Northern hemisphere. So it definitely wasn't the 25th of December.

0 (2m 13s):
Yes, that sort of, but so basically from my understanding of it, Christians grabbed a pagan festival were pregnant. It was one thing I read was that one part, it was a wish of satin that God set in for them. Right. Romans that might be,

2 (2m 30s):
It could be, I think it's more around the sun because it's, it's the winter solstice. So it's the it's, it's not quite, but they didn't calculate it accurately back then, but it's, it was the shortest day of the year. And when you worship the sun, the idea was all the sun's going away. The sun is going away, you know, there's less and less of the sun. So sort of, they thought we better have a big celebration and worship the sun. So the sun comes back. So it was, and you know, the evergreen tree, cause all the other trees die, die off deciduous, the evergreen trees, the pine trees. That's one that sort of gives you hope that the winter's not going to be forever.

0 (3m 10s):
It's going to come. You're coming back. <inaudible> yeah, that was as far back as a gypsy in times, ancient Egypt, they had.

2 (3m 19s):
Cause I, yeah, sun, God RA that they worship the sun. Yeah.

0 (3m 22s):
Yeah. And that when they celebrate it with evergreen trees and all the stuff there to say a new growth, which, I mean, Egypt doesn't seem like they have a lot of winter to be honest, but that was something already. But man, it's, it's so interesting is that like it's, I love the things that celebrations, noise, bits and pieces that are so important to Christianity and celebrated all around the world. But so many of them are really new and there's been changes and it sort of depends on who, you know, which form of Christianity you have, because what was the there's one that's celebrated on the 6th of January or something.

2 (3m 56s):
Yeah. So they actually, and I've got, I've got the numbers here, so get it right. They didn't really start celebrating Christmas till about 336, a D so that's 300 years later. And bear when the scriptures were written and he said, Oh no, no, literally that could be another episode. Yeah. But it was, I suppose it was actually, once Christianity was becoming very mainstream and, and, and yeah, in, in Jewish Christian heritage, you actually didn't celebrate birthdays. So birthdays weren't particularly a thing that was celebrated and sometimes birthdays were frowned upon.

2 (4m 37s):
And if you know the Jehovah's witnesses, they don't celebrate birthdays, they don't celebrate Christmas. And it harks back to that kind of thing that you, you only celebrate the Jewish festivals that are in scripture. And so birthdays aren't in scripture, so you don't celebrate them. But at some point back in, in those days, there was big myths around, you know, great gods, et cetera, that people who kind of lived a perfect life were considered that they bought, they were born and died on the same day. It was one of those funny things that, you know, if you were born on one day and you died on the same day, that was kind of proved that your life was perfect. So wow.

2 (5m 17s):
They did a bit of William Shakespeare. Oh, did he? His birthday, there you go. So there was a bit of a review of the backward projection to Jesus to sort of say, Oh, well, and that's why at first they would have said Jesus was born at around April because he died around April. So at first they would have sent on Jesus was born in April. But then later on, as the world was becoming Christian, they came across this pagan festival, worshiping the sun. And it's kind of like, if you can't, if you can't beat them, join them. And, and, and there are Christians still today who get really nervous about that saying, Oh, Christmas is a pagan festival.

2 (5m 58s):
We shouldn't celebrate it. But Christianity is about a religion that comes and kind of takes over and says, well, hang on what you see or what you believe. We actually think there's a better way to see the world. And there's a better way to believe. So here's this community celebrating this pagan festival. If we tweak it a bit, we'll put, we'll say this is when Jesus was born because Christians also, he was the son of God. So in that there was an equation that with the sun. And so I, okay. We don't worship the sun, but the sun, as in, we don't wish at the sun, but the sun is a good symbol of the son.

2 (6m 39s):
So if the sun is going away and he's going to come back, that's actually part of the Christmas story that Jesus sort of died and Rose again. So we can say, let's, let's celebrate this, you know, Jesus's birthday at Christmas. And they sort of took over this pagan festival,

3 (6m 56s):
But no one actually knows when Jesus was born. No,

2 (6m 59s):
No, because like I said, they didn't celebrate birthday. So people didn't write it down. They didn't have calendars as accurate as we did. Lots of people didn't read and write. They weren't really interested. Like we are in the minute details of those things. So

3 (7m 13s):
You're too busy trying to get food and shelter

2 (7m 15s):
Pretty much that's yeah, that's right. So do they still cultures around where people don't quite know how old they are because we don't, we don't care. We didn't, we kind of, I think I've been alive for 48 winters. Yeah.

3 (7m 29s):
What kind? Sorry. Deviate a little bit at him. Do they know that Easter is accurate? Yeah.

2 (7m 36s):
Easter. Yes. Yeah. We asked about the, why gen January the six we'll get back to that Easter. Yes. Because Easter was actually happened. Although Easter is fascinating as well. And we'll have to do another podcast on that. Easter happened during the past week around Easter. What do you think? Yeah. Yeah. Some pagan festival we should take over. So Easter happened at the Passover and the Passover was celebrating when the Israelites came out of Egypt and they, it was 15 days after the start of the year, which, which comes around April, but it changes cause they had a lunar calendar.

2 (8m 17s):
And so that's the other thing that's different is, you know, three moons after the start of the year was when the Passover is. And I'm just saying that off the top of my head, I can't actually quite remember. So therefore it changes every year and that's why it needs to change as every year because it's actually still based on the lunar calendar. So I think it was, you know, Nissen 15, not, not the motorcar. It was just, that was the Jewish month of Nissen was when the Passover happened. So Jesus died the 15th of Nissen and it was reckoned by the moon. So we very, very much know when Jesus died about it is a festival. But the thing that we, you don't know is that because the Jews were celebrating the Passover and then the Christians came and they started selling bread in Easter.

2 (9m 5s):
There was a big conflict because it's the same weekend. So,

3 (9m 9s):
But Christians I'll have to look in on that.

2 (9m 12s):
Yeah. Well, at one stage they actually decided, you know what, we'll move hours by a week so that we're not fighting. And you think that's actually pretty good, remarkable things. So we don't quite celebrate Easter on the right day because at one stage we moved it so that we weren't fighting with our Jewish neighbors, which

3 (9m 32s):
We've done a bit of that in the past fighting.

2 (9m 34s):
We've done a lot of that. So that's why that's actually a good, a good story to tell. So back to the 6th of January, so the church actually split when the Roman empire fell in half, there was the Eastern and the Western empire. And we, most of us probably know the Western empire. And that was, you know, the famous Julius season, all that when I, I can't remember the details, but at some 0.1 of the emperors split the empire across his sons. So you had the Western and the Eastern empire and then the Western empire actually collapsed and got taken over by the, whoever they were, the Visigoths the barbarians came and took over.

2 (10m 17s):
But the Eastern empire, which is your Russia, Greek Orthodox, or your Orthodox churches, they kept going, but they became sort of really isolated and didn't talk to each other. So while the West took on this pagan festival at the 25th of December, the East actually celebrated, it celebrates Christmas on the 6th of January and they still do it today. And there's lots of Eastern Orthodox people in Australia these days that they have to wait till the 6th of December to unwrap their presence while everyone else has gone crazy. And, and

3 (10m 51s):
I just know a couple of weeks of partying, don't know like Christmas dinner, Christmas lunches, and dinners

2 (10m 57s):
You end up having to do both. And the 6th of January was actually when they celebrated the magi coming the wise men, because they, the ones who brought the gifts. So the 6th of December is when you do the gift giving, I think they still recognize, okay, 25th is born, but the sixth is when the match I come. So that's why it's, it's actually quite interesting. Yeah.

3 (11m 19s):
Well, I'd be interested to find out more about the Orthodox guys cause they look a bit wacky to me some times some of this stuff. Well, what's, what's really interesting is

2 (11m 27s):
Because they were so isolated in some ways they were like, they stayed the same for a long time. They didn't get affected by the, the reformation of Luther, et cetera. So if you got an Orthodox churches, one of the things I think this is really fascinating. They don't use organs. If you go to a church, you often think organ music is classic church thing, but this has nothing do with Christmas. The organ and the watch were the two most amazing inventions for centuries. You can think if making a watch and you can imagine how complicated that is and the organ, which is the original organs were actually water powered that the later ones were wind powered.

2 (12m 13s):
They were the two most amazing inventions. And they invented the Oregon before Jesus was born. Dad said, yep, but it was the circus instrument. So Roman circuses, they had the organ playing all the music and the church said, there's no way we're going to have an organ. That's the, that's a circus instrument. You know, that's what it was. And so the church never had organs for centuries. And then when you had this East and West break, the East, they remembered the organ was bad. The West forgot. In fact, the West forgot about the organ. This is part of the collapse of the Roman empire. They lost a lot of history and memories, et cetera, et cetera.

2 (12m 53s):
When, you know, a couple of hundred years later when the East and the West sort of made contact again, the West rediscovered this organ and they thought this organ is so wonderful. We bread put it in church, forgetting that it's the base of wonderful.

3 (13m 10s):
Mommy says, can't stand bagpipes.

2 (13m 14s):
There's a place for an organ. But I think it might've been historical once upon a time, but we're going to get in trouble. My dad plays the organ, my bat. And so he's going to listen to this, but I think it's fascinating because we're in the church. We're always about purity. You know, we kind of, when, when guitars and drums, it was like, Oh no, they're the devil's music. And you go, well, actually the organ was originally.

3 (13m 39s):
Yeah, that was the actual devil's music. And if you go to a piano, accordion, that's really solid music. That's what happens when you go to Hill. I think it's continuous piano, accordion music. Anyway, maybe this is my thoughts or tangent as we always do. Tell me about this nativity business. What's that all about?

2 (13m 58s):
So the, the thing you've got to understand about the Christmas story itself is it's actually a very simple story. And the Bible, you know, there's not much content there and over the years we filled it in, we've made it up. Yeah. Yeah. Well there a donkey has never met, you know, things like this. Donkey's never mentioned caring, Mary, but we've put a donkey there because well, they probably would've got on a donkey, you know, if you think about, but we've done that with a whole lot of things where we filled in the gaps and what's really fascinating is the image we have of the classic nativity is of a wooden barn shared with the animals outside, et cetera, et cetera, that comes from St.

2 (14m 43s):
Francis of Assisi is in 1223 D, which is just fascinating.

3 (14m 50s):
He loved an animal didn't he? He was, he was, he was

2 (14m 52s):
Known as someone who talked to the animals. I think they kind of get Dr. Doolittle a bit often. And he was quite a remarkable person. But one of the things he did was in the part of the world where he was, which would have been Europe, there was this waning of Christianity. People weren't paying attention to it. And he thought, how do I get people to pay attention? And he set up these nativity scenes. And of course, being in Europe in 1223 ID, it was a wooden building with hay and animals. And so he set up these life-size nativities getting actors and animals,

3 (15m 25s):
And it runs through feeding cast

2 (15m 27s):
And they became really popular. And, but they, they helped people kind of reconnect to their Christian heritage. But what it meant was that is the image of the nativity, the, where Jesus was born. If you, if you go to what they think there is a church in Israel called the church of nativity, it's built on where they think Jesus was born. Now, if it is, we're not sure because it could be, it might not be. But if you go into that church and you go downstairs underneath, you can go into, it's called the grotto and touch kind of, you know, where Jesus, now it could be the right place.

2 (16m 10s):
It really doesn't matter. But what's really interesting is that it is a stone building. And so what you have to understand is in Israel when Jesus or not Israel in Bethlehem, when Jesus would have been born that Israel, sorry, houses were more likely made of stone. And so we say, Jesus is a carpenter. He was probably actually a stone Mason. So even things like this, and you had these three level homes and I'm going to have to describe them, cause I can't draw them. But you had

3 (16m 42s):
Kind of audio on this day. Yeah, that's

2 (16m 44s):
Right. You had kind of what we would look at as a garage, the bottom bit with, you know, a real rough floor, but it was actually where you kept your animals during the winter. So that's the low level and that's what you'd call the stable. So you had this garage, then you had the middle level. So you went up a few stairs up to the middle level and that's where you would have eaten your meals had spent most of your

3 (17m 15s):
Life. Then you had, what's

2 (17m 17s):
Called the upper room, which was built above the garage. So you've kind of got the garage, the middle level, then the upper room and the upper room was where you slept. But it was also where you had really formal things. And if you know, Jesus, his story while he's born in the stable, the garage and his last meal was in the upper room. And the upper room was that formal area. Then above the middle area was a roof. So you'd go outside. And so, because it's a hot climate, you'd live outside on the roof. So these very simple brick or stone houses had the lower level, the middle level, the upper level, and then this outside, outside level.

2 (17m 57s):
And so Jesus, he, he wasn't born in, you know, I wouldn't Sable out the back. He was born in like the garage. That was part of the house because in winter you bought all your animals in that garage and they actually warmed your house up. Their body heat went up. Now you can imagine how smelly could be discussed houses would be, but you know, that's how we've lived for most of our lives. Well, and even probably 200 years ago, life was not much different when you've got no sewerage and toilets and you're throwing it out the window.

0 (18m 34s):
Can I ask him off questioning it? Okay. Jesus didn't travel much. Did he?

2 (18m 39s):
He, well, he, it was Galilee and Jerusalem. I can't remember. It's something like, you know, probably 30 kilometers round trip. Yeah. Yeah. We were living in Australia. You kind of go, Oh, he's got up to Cairns and come back. And he goes, now he's probably Caboolture Redcliffe to Caboolture. Yeah. That's exactly right. Yeah.

0 (19m 1s):
Did he live in the same house the whole time? Or we just don't know that.

2 (19m 5s):
So born in Bethlehem, they went back to Nazareth, which is where their hometown was. Our understanding is he lived there for 30 years and then he became an itinerant preacher, which means he just wandered around and slept wherever because at one stage it even says, I have no home because people saying come and ah, can we follow you? And he goes, well, I've got nowhere to stay, you know, are you game? So for three years he probably was couch surfing. That sort of thing. Live

0 (19m 32s):
In the hippie lifestyle. Jesus

2 (19m 35s):
That's right.

0 (19m 36s):
Okay. I've got a question on that. Considering the fact that we're sitting here and we've already put down a few of the beliefs of religion around Christmas, that it's not quite like we propose, this is some of the thing that kills me about religion is that it's interpretation it's as much as anything just someone said this once. So now it's believed. I mean, this is some of the stuff that gets me with the hope stories that no one knows these all like a lot of the stuff we do now for our celebrations will have nothing to do with the way it was back in the day. So where's the truth where this is, this is a bit that gets me.

0 (20m 17s):
Like some people are so dead set on. Now, this is it. And there's people that believe that Jesus was born on a 20 feet, then you know that he can Easters. What we've said is correct. Cause you get my drift then as a, as a guy, not a religious guy that, that gets me a fair bit.

2 (20m 33s):
And it is, it is. So it's so easy as humans to put our faith in the periphery and not in the core. And it, I always say that whether you're a religious person or not, is we talked about organs and him singing is for some people, their faith is built on the fact that we sing hymns. And like I said, I've got a love, hate relationship with him. And the reason is, is because exactly, as you say, I've come across religious people, that their faith is actually in the experience of singing hymns, not in the person they're singing to.

2 (21m 16s):
Yeah. And so

0 (21m 17s):
Not a lot of people that go to church just for the sing.

2 (21m 20s):
And I'm not saying singing is bad, but if you understand the history of hymns, hymns were words put to popular pub choo to connect to the world at the time. So it's quite remarkable that Isaac Watts, I mean, Isaac Watts is known as the father of Jiminy and in England, his dad was a preacher and he's walking home from church, you know, 17 year old upstart, kidney Stein, who is dead. The music's terrible at church. You know, this is so boring. It's so whatever. And his dad was getting frustrated, done this over a few months, I think, and his dad got so fresh. He said, if you think you can do better, you do better.

2 (21m 60s):
So he went home and he started writing what we now know as hymns. And we still sing Isaac Watts as hymns. And they caused a renewal and a revival in the church because they were actually uptempo and upbeat. And you know, for the times they weren't quite modern and trendy. And so part of me says, you know, Isaac Watts would be turning in his grave. Half of him would be gone. Well, I'm really chuffed. They're still singing my songs, but then you go, hang on a sec. They're still singing my songs, you know, a hundred years ago. Exactly. And he would be saying, I wrote these songs to connect to the people of the day. And I, and it's wonderful that it's helped people connect and they've helped people connect for a long time.

2 (22m 43s):
But when you get so caught up in the hymns are the theme and not the God we're singing about then something's wrong. And that's the same with Christmas. Cause I know when you start hearing this stuff about Christmas, exactly. So some people are gonna go, this guy is a minister, are you sure he's tearing down religion? And I'm like, no, no, no, no. I'm tearing down all the man-made stuff that we've added on. And yeah, I'm not saying that stuff's good or bad. I celebrate Christmas on the 25th, we put up a Christmas tree, you know, but that, that's not the central part of the story.

0 (23m 20s):
You've sort of talked about this before a little bit. And it is, that's how I kind of feel about religion. I, I think the sentiment of being, or not sentenced pretty memorable, but the part of being a good person and doing well to your fellow man and Johnny's house is a fricking fantastic. It's all the religion shit that kills me. It's the, it's the, some of the traditions that are just ridiculous in some of the ways that you know, that you can't women as priests in some regions and you can't, you know, there's, you know, priests can't marry in the Catholic church and all these other, I'll just say it's stupid. But I guess that's part of, it's interesting. We're having this chat now in the fact that sewing much of the celebration of Christmas, which I don't have a great history with, to be honest, just because of a family of the mace.

0 (24m 5s):
And, but it's, it's so followed by so many people and it's inaccurate.

2 (24m 10s):
Yeah. Well, I suppose like you say, well, like I would say at its core, there is, there is a truth there that I think is profoundly liberating and it is trying to learn to hold loosely to all the other things. And I think it's actually a skill you have to develop in all of life. Cause I know, you know, we've talked about bureaucracy and how frustrating that is. Bureaucracy is probably just another name for religiosity. You know, when it comes to religion, the bureaucracy is there. And part of my job, I think as a minister is to try and help people separate what are the, what are the core things that really matter?

2 (24m 51s):
And what are the things that are the add ons that, well, that was helpful for a time, but it doesn't have to be now. And yeah, it's really, really easy though, to put your faith in the bureaucracy.

0 (25m 2s):
Well, you're talking about hemes but could you imagine if you rocked up to Christmas and no one saying solid not, or do these other all, you can't do that mine, but there's not many that have snuck in like new ones in the last

2 (25m 14s):
That's right. And I mean the first few years when I was here, because being a minister, you go to all these events and you just hear Carol after Carol, after Carolyn, you're kind of like, Oh man, I'm so over Christmas carols on a Sunday, I, I was trying to avoid having the carols till Christmas. You know, I thought, okay, in the lead up, because the lead up, we're actually not doing the Christmas story. We're doing the lead up stories. We'll sing songs about the up, but I got feedback like, Oh, we're not doing enough Christmas. We're not doing enough Christmas Carol. So I was like, ah, now people, I mean the challenge is I get people I've actually found, find comfort in these things.

2 (25m 56s):
That usually what it means, what happens is in people's formative years, they have been part of a community. You know, they've been part of a tribe and they've sung the songs. And it was during those years that, you know, something happened in their life. That really meant something. And so they associate singing those songs, praying those prayers, sitting in those seats with that experience. And I mean, this is the irony. This happy shit happened to Jesus. A number of times Jesus went up onto a mountain, took only the three best disciples, Peter, James and John. And it was right at a point in the story.

2 (26m 37s):
If you know, the story is halfway through his kind of ministry. And so far he hadn't talked about the cross only said, you know, come to bring this kingdom of love and helping the poor and all of this, this kingdom's coming. And he took these guys up on a mountain. And when he was up there, this thing called the transfiguration happened where kind of the sky glowed, but Jesus glowed and the disciples are freaked out. These three is going, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. And what was going on was she, this is at the point where Jesus has to go. You know, I've kind of got halfway. Now I have to walk towards this cross. He knew this cross is happening. And it's kind of like, I'm going to go up to the top of the mountain.

2 (27m 18s):
I'm going to talk to my dad and say, do I really want to do this? Do we really want to do this? And so that's what's happening in this story, but the disciples, he stops in the middle of this, the three disciples go, wow, this is great. Let's build three tents here so we can live here and we can stay here. And, and this voice from heaven, which is God, his father says, this is my son whom I love listened to him. And suddenly all the glowing disappears and Jesus, we've got to go back down the mountain. Then they're like, well, why don't we build these huts and stay here? He goes, no, no, no. It's not the physical, you know, it's not the mountain.

2 (27m 59s):
It's not the huts, the buildings. What did the voice say? Listen to my voice. It's actually in what I say that the truth is. And he said, we've got to go now to Jerusalem and I'm going to be nailed to a cross. And that's where this stuff is going to know why that can't happen. And he's going, I've got to tell you, I feel as I'm on it, I'm going to, I'm going to have a crack at it. Yeah. Crossing. And what's remarkable about the Jesus story is the Jesus story is actually the very antidote to the thing you've been talking about because the Jesus story to you, you, you hear this, that, okay, the nativity scene actually didn't look like what we think. And I want to unpack that more because it's really, really powerful, I think, and it can make your faith really feel weak.

2 (28m 42s):
And what it is is there's a, every time you learn something, you go through a death and resurrection that here I have, I've learned this thing and I really think it's cool. And then someone tells me, actually, it's not everything you think it is. And it's not true. You grieve, you actually die. And the death that you die is deeper. The more you've held onto it. And part of the Jesus message is you have to go through these deaths and resurrections and deaths and resurrections and deaths and resurrections to actually reach the truth. So Christians, we should be the ones who are really good at saying, you know what?

2 (29m 22s):
We thought that was true, but it's not. We need to go through another death and resurrection. Cause that's what Jesus said is the way to find truth. The way to find the answer, the end point is to keep going through death and resurrection people don't like change. We don't like change. And that's why these disorders so radical. All right. Give

3 (29m 42s):
Me a second. Give me a second. Take a breath. I feel I'm going to get back to Christmas now cause that he didn't die around Christmas. He was born. Let's be nice about that. Do you want to put a big shout out to today's sponsor, which is the catchment brewing company he done done and Larry <inaudible> Wistia and visited and has a delightful beverage there. Check them out, cracking little spot there. I got some great brews, which are always delicious, nice and cold. Especially this time of year. So big shout out to Katherine. Thanks heaps guys. For all your help. I will go and pick up that four pack over coming shortly. Just haven't got round to it yet, but thanks for having me guys. I really appreciate it. So Padre, which I love calling you for some reason.

3 (30m 22s):
I don't know. That's not something you meant to be cool with. Right? So let's get back to a little bit. Now you've got here. Look at, and we went nuts here, right? So give me the, you got heat. Well, we were talking about pubs and I was just talking about bees. That was good Christmas and the development of the pub.

2 (30m 41s):
Yeah. I can't read about that, bro. Nah, this is, this is really fascinating. So we always say in the Christmas story, so this relates to that, that the house you have, your, your stable garage, your meat area and your upper room. We always say they, Jesus was born in a stable because there was no room in the end. And we have an innkeeper in the story. If you go read the Bible, there is no innkeeper. We filled in a gap. That's awesome. And in fact, there were no Inns when Jesus was born. There were no pubs when Jesus was born, it was

3 (31m 17s):
Like a horrible time in the world.

2 (31m 19s):
Well, there was, there was lots of places to drink, but there was no public place to stay public house. That's exactly right. And so what we think actually happened is one, if you were going back to your family of origin, you would have family days. So Joseph went back to his family and it wasn't that there was no room in the end. The word in is actually the same word for upper room. Ah, so it is actually Jesus went, Joseph and Mary went back to their family home. There would have been lots of people there and they had to sleep in the animal part because there was no room left in the upper room.

2 (32m 7s):
The upper room was where the best guests slept and guests, what they thought of Joseph and Mary, obviously. Exactly. And this is what makes, this is what makes this story so powerful is we sort of think they were alone in a, a stable out the back. They were probably in a house that was very full of their relations and they got relegated. The worst.

3 (32m 35s):
I slipped in all the cashiers.

2 (32m 37s):
I've been on Christmas holidays where me and my wife got relegated to the tent out the back and I've been to the very side. And it was kind of like we got that because we were the most gracious people, you know, they thought we would wouldn't complain, but I tell you sleeping out the tent in the back anyway. So you suddenly realize Joseph and Mary, their family didn't think that much of them. And part of that was, this is a out of wedlock pregnancy.

3 (33m 6s):
So the Mary's runner until they won and she's a Virgin, she's got to be

2 (33m 10s):
Well that's right. Even if she wasn't telling them that was who knows what they thought. Well, yeah, she, yeah. And so what's then really remarkable is the family not told about in the story, which is kind of like, well, we're watching, so Mary and Joseph, they sleep in the stable and there might've been animals. There might not because it, it probably wasn't winter. So they might not have needed to be there, but they got the worst room in the house because they had the lowest status. And that just, I think for me, some of us will hear that and go, Oh no, the innkeeper and all that, it's all gone. But you go think about that. Here is God.

2 (33m 52s):
If this story is true to what I actually think it is, God is saying I'm going to come and join humanity. Not only do I come just to some normal everyday folk, I come to a couple who are left out into the bottom of the bottom of the food chain, who even their own family go. You know what? They can have the,

3 (34m 16s):
Oh, I can just imagine Josh's mother or something like that. Just being a Karen, just getting a, I'm sorry, you'll bring in this house. You don't bring it. Don't you give me that Joseph.

2 (34m 26s):
So it would have been a bit strange then when you suddenly have shepherds knocking on the door and I've got this, but how does that, how does that relate to the public? So what that shows you is yeah, there were no ends at the time Jesus starts living his life. And one of the stories he tells is the story of the good Samaritan. And that's where a guy's traveling from. I can't remember the Jerusalem to Jericho Jericho, and what used to happen in those days. It was when you traveled, you traveled in groups and you slept by the side of the road, but there were no ends. There were no pubs. And so safety in numbers. And there were people in the middle of the night that hit you over the head, Rob you that's the whole thing.

2 (35m 8s):
So yeah, abandoned. So you would sleep in groups. This guy's gone on his own. And so he's, he's a sitting duck and he gets bashed up and all of this. So Jesus does everything. He tells this story. The story obviously becomes quite legendary in the Jesus story. And the early Christians, they start going, we've got to help people who get beat up on the road because that's what Jesus said. We've got to look after them. They go, what are we going to do to stop it? So what they did was they thought we need to start building public houses. I love where this is going. The towns where people can get a drink and you couldn't drink water back then because it wasn't beginning.

2 (35m 49s):
So you had to have some fermented drink that killed all your germs. You get something to eat and something to, to sleep. So it was actually the Christians taking the story of the good Samaritan and saying, we've got to stop people even getting hit over the head. We'll have these public houses to stay in these Inns. And they, they use the word, the upper room because the opera room was where the guests stayed. That was the best room. And so it was actually Christianity that developed the pub. Now

0 (36m 21s):
That's one of the greatest religious stories I've ever heard. And I might, I might come back to the fold. I don't know. That's pretty good. I like that a lot. Thank you. Good Samaritan story. That's fainted.

2 (36m 34s):
And it's funny because the monks, they were apparently some of the,

0 (36m 38s):
Oh absolutely huge centuries. Isn't that wonderful.

2 (36m 42s):
And so, yeah, because of, well, the Christmas story, you can see the connection, but because of the good Samaritan story that the church decided when you got to a town, if you were traveling, when you got to a town, you would go to the town square and people would come and you'd stay at their house. Cause there was no public houses and that, but between towns, you were sitting guts ducks. So they built these public things. Now pubs also developed in other parts of the world under different stories. But

0 (37m 10s):
That's Cracker that I'm having that a lot that Dean associated with BU's again and pubs and so-and-so Christmas was actually banned for a wall. Tell us about that because of drunkenness

2 (37m 25s):
And in some ways, because it probably looked like it does now. So yeah. So St. Francis of Assisi. So Christmas, it hasn't always been the biggest Christian celebration. Like they might've celebrated it, but it was just a, you know what, you didn't even necessarily get a day off. It was just whatever. So Francis cc's made it, made it big again. And by the 16 hundreds, it was, it was so popular, but people were drinking. People were misbehaving

0 (37m 56s):
On Christmas day. I can't believe it. Yeah, I

2 (37m 58s):
Know. And it happened so that the Puritans, which were again cute Christians who thought we need to be pure, said, this is bad. We've got abandoned. And so got banned for, I can't remember, you know,

0 (38m 8s):
Well, it's yeah. It's about that. I think it's about 60 years or something like that.

2 (38m 12s):
And it was, I think King, one of the Kings King, Charles, the second came back and he, he reinstated a whole lot of things in one of the things he reinstated was Christmas. But when you think about, and this is what, this is a sad side of Christmas is domestic violence rates go up.

0 (38m 28s):
Oh, my, I used to work in the cops on Christmas day. And it was, the sheet is day to what your wife and me family, everyone was having good time. And all you're doing is going to domestic. After domestic, after domestic, after me, it was a nightmare of a day. And it's so

2 (38m 42s):
I said, and it is sad. I've been watching that SPS show on addiction. And my wife and I were talking about how, if you have any sort of addiction, Christmas's just horrible. And I, you know, we talk about it and I, and I do want to talk about how Christmas is good for a whole lot of reasons. But for a lot of people, it is really hard. One is some people don't want to go anywhere near their family. And yeah. So we do it. Yeah.

0 (39m 13s):
Yeah. We'll just teach because people get lonely said, they think about old times and people gone now and, and how, you know, they can be with their family and do all these other bits of pistol. They don't have any family. And so they, they do their worst sorts of, it's a tough time of year for a lot of people. It's very new.

2 (39m 29s):
And, and that, and the irony is that the Christmas story is about the left out forgotten. You know, you get stuck in the tent, out the back and God saying, I think these people are important. And we don't realize that rocked the world before Jesus. It was, it was actually quite rare to help the poor, the Jewish religion had that you should help the poor, but in most cultures didn't help the poor. And it was because you believed in karma. And so if you did something wrong, you, you suffered for it. So if someone's suffering, it's actually punishment of the God's punishment of nature.

2 (40m 15s):
Yeah. And it's even science, you know, survival of the fittest. And in, in many cultures to help the poor is to fight against the gods because the gods are punishing them. And so the, the Jesus story, he actually had a different narrative on poor people. He said, they're in the front of the, they're at the front of the line. And that's why, how Western culture we actually think we should help the poor. We should look after the disabled. And that is a really, really radical worldview. That was not common at all.

0 (40m 50s):
Well, it still isn't it a lot of other, well, look, I'm thinking of the caste system in India, but you know, what's the, the unclean at the bottom, I can't where they call the untouchable untouchable. I mean, this is a, you know, where you're born or here you're born. It's all that easy.

2 (41m 3s):
We, we had some friends from India, Sri Lanka and yeah. In their society, kids born disabled. It's a curse of God. And it's kind of, you, it's a shame on your family. So you don't take them out in public. You obviously don't educate them and you kind of hope they die. And they, these friends came to Australia and they, they can't believe how well we treat people with disabilities and, and they, they get it when they get here, which is that they kind of go, wow, I didn't realize, you know, what's happening at home

3 (41m 38s):
One day, I want to do one on cultural differences, but it's just so huge. It's a big thing. But anyway, we try and stick on Christmas a bit, as much as we can talk about lots of stuff, but one of the greatest things about Christmas and everyone loves the Nasara. Lisa gone berserk about it yesterday. He's Santa Claus or father Christmases. I used to call them when I was a kid, but he's Santa Claus now. And basically he's a bit of bullshit. Isn't he? A bit of marketing?

2 (42m 2s):
Yes. It's, it's a really fascinating story because I mean, there was a guy called Saint Nicholas here, a real Bishop of

3 (42m 12s):
And freeze he's, he's going just to get food and stuff. I mean, he did a whole lot of other things, but it used to help generosity.

2 (42m 20s):
And so in some parts of the world, that's where you get sent some Nicholas Santa clause. It comes from that, but in all different parts of the world, you ended up with the same, th this funny elf in some countries, he was a green elf. So because before we became a globalized country, there was all these different legends around a Santa Claus type figure. And it was consolidated into what we have today by Coca Cola, Coca Cola, you have Coca Cola, because like I said, you had green Santa Claus, you did have some red Santa Claus. Cause Saint Nicholas was a Bishop and they used to wear red. And you had all these different versions of Santa Claus and some were elves and, you know, short and fat and whatever.

2 (43m 6s):
And it was a Coca-Cola. I can't remember, you know, in the twenties or something that said, our colors are red, Santa Claus is going to be red. And this is what he's going to look like,

3 (43m 16s):
Wait up a bit, a little bit. And it's just, it was some marketing guy that drew Santa in that, in that way, or the Jew, the jolly go of the big guts and, and all the red in them. And then they just started putting into the marketing and everyone's just sort of, yep. Okay.

2 (43m 29s):
That's what's and it looks like, and it, it it'd be hard to find a country in the world now. I mean, it's funny because we've, I've had people who've come from communist countries and I don't have Santa Claus. They don't because communist countries crispy just got to get rid of it. Yeah. They have new year's Eve. Man. Tell us about new year's Eve. He looks very similar to Sarah and he has presence and, and, but yes,

3 (43m 55s):
And just another rebrand from another area, it looks like Christianity's done.

2 (43m 59s):
That's exactly right. The, the communists have come said we can't have religion, so yeah, we can't beat him. So we'll just make it, you know, well, new year's is there, that's a good time to celebrate. It's nothing to do with religion. So you give gifts and this new year's man comes at at, at new year and

3 (44m 18s):
He looks like that. No, no, he doesn't.

2 (44m 21s):
And so it's, it's, it's very fascinating. I mean, I actually think probably the most, cause I mean, we, we didn't tell our daughter about Santa for a while. She just caught him Christmas, man, because it's funny how, you know, you would say odd. I don't wanna bring my kids up to believe in God. I'm thinking I don't, I didn't want to bring my kids up to believe in Santa.

0 (44m 45s):
Oh, well, how does it, how did the church feel about Santa Claus

2 (44m 51s):
And, well, we, we don't do a lot of Santa closing the church cause we try and just say the original story. My wife runs play group and all this term they've been looking at the original Christmas story and a lot of parents actually find that refreshing. It's kinda like, ah, it's good to actually just hear the original story and it's not Santa Santa, Santa Santa, and what can I have? And not that not we ban Santa or anything, but it's kinda like, wow, we do this, we do this. We make sure people understand that story and people go, Oh, that sounds good to us. So there's a bit of a love, hate relationship because at these cool, the cynical story is a good story, but it's been taken away by marketing.

2 (45m 31s):
And for me, the saddest part of Christmas is that it has become, you know, a peak retail season in a materialist world.

0 (45m 41s):
Well, what'd you do when you got here, when your notes here is it, they already have a child born in, born in obscurity to poor parents, burst the peak retail season in a shallow materialistic world. And I read that and I thought you're right. I mean, Christmas is like, I have seen people just spent so much money on gifts that had just gone in a month. What they broken or doing something else. Yeah. It's the, I mean, I don't, I'm not a big gift giver for occasions. Like my M's and I have this thing where if we see something that we sort of think the other one had, like, you tend to get it, but we don't tend to give each other presents on birthdays or Christmas or any of that because the presence, your presence is, is the best part of it, which sounds wonky.

0 (46m 23s):
But it's,

2 (46m 24s):
That's my theme for Christmas this year. Christmas is about presence

0 (46m 28s):
Being here. And, but some people will just go berserk and that's just the wind up of, of the retail sector and marketing and how much is enough. And, you know, I find it strange all these little kids jumping on Santa's lap or am I at 20 meters away from, which is the dumbest Christmas photos I've ever seen in my life, to be honest, why bother? But anyway, and get on there and say, I want to, I want, I want, I want this like, well, what are you giving kid? Not what's what's that a little bit.

2 (46m 56s):
Yeah. My wife is reading a book and they said the high from buying something last six days. And, and the, I mean, I'm not saying you'd never buy anything because my wife and I reflected reflecting on that and saying the things that we grew up with that was special at Christmas, we virtually have every day now, like, you know, you only had soft drinks at Christmas. You only had a barbecue, you know, and you had a roast chicken at Christmas. Th there's so much stuff that we have all year. It makes it hard to make Christmas special. I can see why people just go way over the top.

2 (47m 37s):
And, and yeah, this, this irony exactly, as you said that for me, it's the presence. And the Christmas story is actually saying the presence of God with us in a way that values us. As I think last time we talked, you know, if, if this universe is as big as it is, and there's so much gaps in space, there's so much time, why would a God care about insignificant fleas on a backwater planet? You know, in a, in a hobo bah galaxy,

0 (48m 11s):
Oh man, I need a t-shirt.

2 (48m 18s):
I mean, that's the remarkable newness of the Christmas story to say that the God that is out there valued humanity enough to come to earth, not only to come to earth, could've come in a spaceship, whatever it could have come as an age or decided to come into a female's womb and embrace the human condition to share our life, to say you actually matter. And, and I'm here with you. Life's hard. Life's sucks. I mean, I'm going to go through that with the cross battle.

2 (49m 0s):
I'm here, I'm here. And S I mean, we, you've probably had that, that there's some times in your life where just having someone with you, holding your hand can get you through anything. You know, that's the thing you need. And that's, what's been terrible about the isolation people dying alone.

0 (49m 16s):
Well, that's, that's why I started truck. Cause I just had so many people, Oh man, I'm just so fortunate. Like, Oh, I was talking to a mate the other day and I haven't seen him for months and months, but it doesn't matter. And I know it's due there, but what are, we're going to Emma's parents for Christmas, for some reason he rapped about cause equity's such a lovely family. It's sort of, so we'll all be Eileen to me, no one pieces each other off for now and really hesitate term at Christmas and they don't really get wound up about stuff. That's all, it's really nice. And I'm looking forward to that because that's been a little lacking in my times for various reasons, but I'm looking forward to that presence. I don't want anything. I don't need anything.

0 (49m 57s):
In fact, we've got heaps of help from our family this year on some other bits of places, but just that's gonna be cool. And for me, that's the wonderful thing. It's like, I wonder if for Christmas, we've got a chore gathering coming up next a week from today, which will be the last one for the year sort of thing. And I'm really hoping people come along and just, you know, understand that it's about involving other people. And I mean, it's a shit thing to sit at home on Christmas and not have any, not that you don't want to go anywhere. Like you're saying, some people don't want talk to their family and I get that, but it's a shit thing to not be able to not have the opportunity to do so because there's nobody there. And I think that's something that we could, if you're going to do anything for Christmas, don't, don't spend 400 bucks on your two year old kid who doesn't know anyway, go and do something, go and hang out with someone, going, invite someone to do something to them if you want.

0 (50m 48s):
I don't care.

2 (50m 49s):
So yeah. One of the sad things about this year is we, we usually run with Embridge and the council, Christmas lunch on Christmas lunch, and we get 300 people who really have, have nowhere else to go. But because of COVID, we, we canceled it that now the breakfast club, they are doing something Christmas morning. If you've got nowhere to go. And I mean, we've got a bunch of people we're doing Christmas hampers, which you can go through the breakfast club or regular. If uniting, if you ring us up, one, one you can donate, but two, you can sign up and say, you know, we need a handbook and at least, you know, someone out there is thinking of you and, and, and donating. Yeah. And if you are alone, think about someone else who's going to be alone and invite them round or cause it it's amazing.

2 (51m 36s):
I mean, it's one of the ironies of, of human life. When relationships go, well, they're the, they're the best things we have. But when they go bad, that's the worst thing. And so that's what sometimes when we've had relationships go bad, it can mean we don't want to take that risk again, which, which is, which is really sad because you then are alone and you don't realize how much you need human contact, human touch. And one of the things it's been really interesting coming back to worship. We started in August. It's been a slow thing in that we started with, I can't remember, you know, 60 people when we had 170 last Sunday, but virtually every week someone's coming back for the first time.

2 (52m 21s):
And even me, I CA you know, doing church for the first time I was on a high for five days. I couldn't believe it. I thought I've been doing this stuff for years. Well, it was just being together. But you can see that every week when the new people come, they're, the smiles on their faces are really huge. And I think people can get that from top tribe as well. But there is something that we don't comprehend goes on when we're together. Yeah,

0 (52m 49s):
Man, this look, it was this whole COVID thing. Zoom's great. It ain't getting together and we need we're social people, right? Like, we're sorry, we're social animal. And we need to have each other, not many people can truly be hermits and be happy. Okay. You generally need someone else's contact and care or, you know, just, you know, that, that presence you feel like, as we said before, so let's hope that as many people out there get that for Christmas as they can. And they're not sitting Sidney in their lines. So, but I'm sure you'll provide many brother, but look, before we start wrapping up, what else? Anything else you want to throw at us? What are the, if you got or misunderstandings or misquotes or whatever?

2 (53m 32s):
Well, yeah, one thing is it's worth just going back to Matthew and Luke, if you know how to use a Bible, you can just look them up on the Google, just look up Matthew. I think it's chapter two, Luke chapter one, you read the original Christmas stories. You'll be amazed how simple they are. And you know, there is no donkey. There is no innkeeper, apparently that's right. The upper room. And it's, it's worth doing just to go, okay, this is actually a really simple, really beautiful story about presence and about God valuing the least of these.

2 (54m 16s):
And if God phased the least of these, then he values you evaluate me. And just as a physical presence of other people, there is something about God's presence being with us that that changes things that makes a difference. So, yeah.

0 (54m 35s):
That's cool, man. Lots of bits and pieces. No, I think, look, I think that's a cracking way to wrap up, to be honest. I mean, look, if you get nothing else out of this, be present at Christmas, don't bring presence and niche so much as be present, but nine, 10 out there. I hope you have a good Christmas. I'll be doing a couple more before that time, but this is the Christmas one that Paul and I were going to do. So Paul, thanks to ex brother and now my Merry Christmas to you and yours. And I hope, hope if all your celebrations are everything you want, which would be great. Thanks. A lot of people, we're going to wrap it up here, thanks to catchment brewing company for their sponsorship, and to help us through how to put this little show on wait, we'll catch up next week on no humble opinion.