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What are your main team challenges and desires? Maybe we can help?
Book in a 15-minute Exploratory Call now and let's see.
Shahani (00:03):
We don't tend to prioritise our wellbeing. Firstly, it's thinking whether it's a priority for you and when is it, and then it's making it realistic for you to achieve. And that's that concept.
Caroline (00:14):
Hello, and thank you for tuning in to Sheep Dip, the podcast from Raising the Baa, global leaders in team building - with sheep. So workplace wellness, what does it all mean? It's such a huge topic, which is why for this series of Sheep Dip, we have invited a really wide variety of guests who are experts in their particular field, they're from the corporate side as well as consultancies. They'll be sharing their insights and giving you some truly practical tips on how you can improve your own workplace wellness. Feel free to join in the conversation on socials using the hashtag workplace wellness. But meanwhile, let's get on with the show with your hosts Chris Farnsworth, who's our Head Shepherd, who co-founded the business with myself, Caroline Palmer. Enjoy the show.
Today we are speaking with Sally and Shahani, who are from the consultancy Talogy. So tell us a little bit about Talogy before we start.
Shahani (01:14):
Yeah, sure. So Talogy is an organisation focused very much on both psychology and technology, hence our name. And we bring those two things together. So we've got a really simple mission. Our aim is to help our organisations, our clients, find, build and transform their stars into the talented leaders that they intend to find. So we're very focused on people development and we look at the whole employee life cycles. We're a global organisation. Our headquarters is in LA in the US but we have a strong presence around the globe and here in the UK and also in Europe as well.
Caroline (01:49):
And you work with quite a lot of companies that we also work with as well. So, are you able to name a couple of companies maybe that you're working with right now?
Shahani (01:57):
High street retail, such as Marks and Spencer's. We work a lot in financial services. We also work a lot with other household names there. For example, BBC is a client of ours’, so we have a very wide reaching and we also work internationally with clients who have people across the globe and irrespective of where they're headquartered.
Caroline (02:17):
Excellent, excellent. So what would be interesting to know is a little bit about each of your backgrounds just very briefly and how you come to be in your current roles.
Shahani (02:27):
Sure, yeah. My background is in psychology, so got a degree in psychology and a masters in occupational psychology. And I started my career actually in occupational health. So used to do a lot of risk management around mental health. And then I moved into doing work with senior leaders and HR teams around complex people development challenges and started a lot of facilitation, so around mental health in the workplace, stress management as well. And then I moved into being a wellbeing consultant for a few years, and then moved into my role here as a principal consultant and business psychologist at Talogy. So very much now focusing on leadership development, team development and coaching as well with the lens of wellbeing too.
Caroline (03:07):
Sally, how about you?
Sally (03:09):
My background is really in leadership development. I started my career now in financial services and became really interested in the whole concept and idea of leadership and how leaders can really impact either positively or negatively the people they're leading by the way in which they behave. And I learned this stuff the hard way, to be perfectly honest, because I was in a role leading people very early on and thinking, I wonder what the good way is to do this. So I was very passionate about finding out ways of helping leaders do their jobs really well. I've had a period of time running my own business, which was very insightful in terms of exploring a whole range of themes relating to wellbeing, one's own wellbeing as well as that of the clients that you're serving. I've been here at Talogy for five years now. I'm a managing consultant. The topic of course of wellbeing has come up hugely, particularly in recent years, turning the clock back to 2020 and the experience that many leaders were having of being responsible for their team's wellbeing in a way they'd never been before outside of work. And our work lives became completely merged in many cases. So that brought the topic of wellbeing, very much the focus, but helping leaders to do that themselves and to be able to have those kinds of conversations with their teams comfortably and skillfully.
Chris (04:24):
Oh, Sally, I remember that feeling. Is there a better way to do things? Surely not everybody struggles this much with sheep. I just scratching my head there. Because I was born in London, I didn't have a role model. When there isn't a role model, you're sort of going, oh gosh, who's doing what? And then that's the importance of collaboration and to get together, have a pint of beer. In my case, I don't know about you guys, but having a pint a beer down the pub is really good research. I find that social interaction and that's when the pandemic hit is, is like, oh gosh, we can't have that. And Zoom never really hit it for me, really. You know, it's great we have it, but it's not the same as actually physically getting down in the field. Your different scenarios and, and actually not all sheep are the same, which quite shocks some people. And not everybody's the same. Not everybody reacts the same way and different sheep need different handling. And I think that's, you know, very similar.
Shahani (05:25):
And, and building on that, not only did I imagine different sheep need different things, but also the same sheep might need different things on different days.
Chris (05:33):
Oh, ok.
Shahani (05:34):
And I think from a leadership perspective that's important to remember as well that, you know, maybe what worked really well with somebody last week, last month, last time you spoke to them, they may be in a different place now. They need some different insights..
Chris (05:47):
The more individual you make the sheep, the better the result is. And that's the hard part, you know, when you're dealing with three or four hundred sheep at a time, it's quite difficult to go: now was that the one which did the job, isn't it? To make it individual but yet large enough so that we can manage a larger group?
Shahani (06:09):
Yes, exactly. Yeah. So it's the having the skill to recognise that one size doesn't fit all and having the knowledge and the techniques to be able to flex around that.
Caroline (06:20):
Actually, I'm quite surprised even with the groups that we bring out to the field, you know, we had one yesterday and they're only dealing with 10 sheep, one team at a time. And clearly they're not, on the whole, experienced at all with sheep because they're from the corporate world. I mean, why would they? And you know, they start the day thinking, well sheep are all the same, they'll follow blah, blah, blah, general perception of what a sheep does or is like. And yet within about an hour or two, they're already going, no, now that's the one that does this, or that's the one that does that. They, they've already started identifying a couple of, you know, ones that are behaving slightly differently. So, and that's just a microcosm of what Chris and other shepherds deal with, which is yeah, it's interesting. Okay. So now wellbeing. Huge, huge, huge topic. Is there a particular one that you feel most passionate, I'm speaking to both of you here, but is there a particular area that you feel most passionate about and why? Why is that?
Sally (07:20):
So for me, the area that really draws me is understanding how people see their wellness needs and take action on it. How that influences all sorts of aspects of their life. So what I think happens is that when people acknowledge that they have a right to do whatever it is they need to do to help themselves be in a good state, and they develop enough self-awareness to notice what's going on for them in the moment and to take action on that. And then seeing what difference it makes, that then helps them think about other aspects of their life. So for example, when somebody's able to notice that they feel a bit tired, they need break, and they think, yeah, it's OK for me to take a break. I'm allowed to do that. I'm very, very busy, there's loads to do, but actually for me to be at my best, I need to take a break. And they do that. They kind of feel proud about being brave enough to make that decision. They notice the difference. Taking the break makes and then that enables them to be more resourceful and to have more capacity for themselves in other aspects of their life. So I love the way that focus on wellness can not only have an impact in the moment, but can also impact how they interact with themselves and other people in other areas.
Caroline (08:26):
I like that. Shahani, how about you?
Shahani (08:29):
So for me, I, I love Sally's point about someone taking accountability of their own wellbeing and you know, leveraging their own self-awareness. And I think in order to also do that, it's about the organisation creating the right conditions for employees to be able to thrive. Because I worked in occupational health, I used to see, you know, quite evidently the impact, having the right initiatives in place makes such a difference for people's wellbeing in the workplace and even outside of work. So something I'm really passionate about is the conditions that you're creating for yourself as an individual, but also what the organisation is creating for you too. For example, having a wellbeing strategy in place. You know, things like employee assistance programmes, occupational health support, insurance policies, all that you know, comes together really.
Chris (09:14):
The interesting thing is the sheep are very much habit forming. As a person who goes out and helps other shepherds to deal with the flock, we always insist that they get the sheep in first. Not because we're, we just want everything ready for when we turn up. The fact is that, oh, the sheep will be really alert to a stranger in the field will go, what are you doing here? Oh, something's going to be up. And so they'll be slightly on edge. Is that the same with employees when you turn up? Are they slightly putting on their best behaviour? Are they slightly on the back foot? Would that be right? And if so, how do you counteract that?
Sally (09:53):
So it's a really interesting analogy, Chris. I think, yes, inevitably when you bring something new into, into the room, either on a one-to-one or into a team. Because e, we do a lot of work with intact teams. So we do something called team coaching, which is where we work alongside the team as they're doing their normal work, their normal meetings. And we observe and we sometimes intervene and we give feedback on what we see. So you're right, initially people are sort of very conscious there's somebody in the room, we're being watched. Our job really is to help people relax, to encourage them to be open, to feel safe and to be themselves, at the same time as helping them develop a focus on being themselves with skill. So being their best self. That's really our job. And actually sometimes having an observer or a coach or somebody giving you feedback helps you do that because you see things through their eyes that you wouldn't notice yourself because you're too familiar with yourself. And through that, just like your sheep, what you then start to do is to develop new habits. And that's really what the essence of emotional intelligence is about. It's about exploring the habits that you've fallen into, the patterns that you have and challenging those a little bit and saying what might be a more helpful pattern or habit for me to form. And that's particularly true around wellness.
Caroline (11:11):
Now, everybody loves a story. We're all about stories, aren't we? We're telling them now, aren't we? And I just think it brings to life a lot of what amazing work you must do with your clients. Is there a story, an initiative or something you can share?
Sally (11:25):
Something that was launched during the pandemic at our organisation was what we call random rendezvous. So, we were noticing, to take Chris's point earlier, you know, not seeing people face-to-face can be quite tough. And sometimes, you know, zoom might not cut it for some people, but also when there's a time limit on it and there's a formality around a meeting. So this random rendezvous was created essentially globally to allow people the chance to connect with people that you might not actually connect with even in your normal day, uh, even if we were face-to-face because they're across the world. So it's a chance for us to almost rotate how we connect with people. It's an informal conversation. We are accountable as well, to reach out to each other once we know who we're connecting with that week. And so we have someone that initiates almost a little spreadsheet for us, essentially to tell us who we will be connecting with that week.
(12:17):
And then it's up to us to reach out. But it really has made an impact, I think, for people's mental health support from people that you might not normal normally speak to. So that's one initiative that we have. And something else that we have is also our monthly brunches in the uk. So again, completely optional and with wellbeing, I think most things need to be optional and it's up to you to decide what you need. We will attend these monthly brunches as and when we can in different locations and again, have a chance to connect with people and of course eat some good food.
Caroline (12:47):
That's the bit that people miss. I don't mean just eating, but it's such a social and important aspect of life, isn't it?
Sally (12:53):
It's a bit like the concept of the animals at the watering holes.
Chris (12:57):
Well certainly the animals. In fact, the interesting thing about sheep is if you put two flocks together, they don't know each other. There's a field of grass and they will naturally stay isolated from each other. They won't really mix even though they look the same. But you can see, you know, often when two flocks get together accidentally, you can walk through quietly with a dog by your heel and they will naturally separate into their own.
Sally (13:26):
Oh wow.
Chris (13:28):
And the only time that barrier really gets broken down is over a very long period of time, over a year or if you get some cake and, and it's not a cake we eat, it's
Caroline (13:41):
Not Victoria sponge.
Chris (13:42):
But you put it in a trough and that's where they have to nestle together to physically get to the food. The brunch is about getting together, actually sharing food is such an important, it's hardwired into us. And you learn so much more about people. That is really what makes a huge difference, certainly in the animal world. You start feeding them, they then get together as a mob and will go, gosh, we can get through that gap because the food's the other side and and they'll be very resourceful. You mentioned resourceful. The resourcefulness of sheep is amazing. They will learn, oh, this is the gateway, this is what we need to do to get out. And if you suddenly change it, it really does floor them. And I think humans are the same. You see people in the supermarket, they've moved the peanut butter into another aisle. You almost have a riot, don't you?
Sally (14:44):
You do. That is such a good point. And actually my husband is a great example of that because, I remember when they moved the sugar to a different aisle at Sainsbury's, as you say, Chris, we're creatures of habit, really.
Chris (14:55):
Real creatures of habit. And to interrupt your patterns for health or for wellbeing or any of those can be really helpful.
Sally (15:06):
We can read, we can listen, we can learn. We have all sorts of practical, factual, tangible information around us, which sort of conditions us into learning how we ought to be, what the expectation is, what good looks like. And sometimes that's to the detriment of paying attention to our sort of really strong, powerful inner voice. So that intuition that's telling me what I need, the inner voice might be saying, go get outside in the fresh air. Go and get a glass of water. Go and walk away from your screen and look at the horizon for a minute. And we don't sometimes, because we think no I ought to sit and do my emails or I ought to join this zoom meeting, or I ought to be doing whatever it is. But actually paying attention to that is massively powerful, what we would describe as self-awareness is so important. And it's about breaking habits.
Chris (15:53):
I think you're absolutely right. We don't listen to our inner self, but the sheep still do. And that's, that's the big difference. I mean there's so much noise going on in our world that actually being grounded, you know, people go, oh, it must be lovely to be a shepherd. Well if you knew how hard it was, you would possibly take that rose coloured spectacles off. But actually, yeah, it's nice to be grounded. It's nice to be there with your dog, your sheep, fields, nature. Yeah. And you just never know what's going to turn up. You know, there's, there's always that surprise element of Oh, you thought you were doing that?Really? Not today! And that's that ability to adapt, which is times when we get into that regimented, I've got to do this, I've got to do that. It's not really that healthy, I don't think.
Sally (16:45):
No. And I think, again, just using an example of the pandemic we learned as a species, if you like, we learned very quickly how incredibly adaptive and innovative we could be. At the point when the UK locked down, I was like 10 days off hosting one organisation's global leadership development programme, which was going to bring leaders from all over the world to the UK for a sort of three day intensive residential programme. And of course nobody could come. And the organisation sort of paused and drew breath, then said, do we still want to do this. How are we going to make it happen? And we did. And it was really successful and great learning took place. And the programme was completely different in the way that we had originally designed it. But we were able to quickly turn around and do that and the organisation was equally able to quickly turn around and respond to us doing something different.
(17:37):
And when that comes to wellbeing and wellness, you know, sometimes it's, well I can't do that because I'm, I can't go the gym at lunchtime because I can't take a break because I'm the leader. It wouldn't be good if I'm seen not to be at work. And that's one of the things we talk about a lot, the kind of the shadow that the leader casts, particularly in respect to wellness. You know, the leader who takes their own wellbeing seriously is much more able, I think to influence their teams to do that. Here at Talogy, one of the lovely things that happened in the second lockdown, do you remember we went into the winter lockdown, which just felt every kind of hideous because we'd already been through lockdown. We knew how horrible that was and it was winter and the days were short. And one of our senior leaders created an initiative, which I think was really powerful. She started going out for walks at lunchtime and took photos and posted those on our team's chat. So this is what I saw on my walk today. And it was a means of sharing views that we wouldn't normally get to see, but also very subtly giving permission to take a break, to go outside during daylight hours, to notice what you're seeing and to do it mindfully, not just a track round the block and think that's my walk done, but gosh, what is happening here? What can I share with people? What's interesting?
Caroline (18:47):
I love that. And did it encourage other people to do similar things? Yeah, I bet it did.
Sally (18:51):
Yeah, totally. We had all sorts of lovely photos and it was a lovely way to bring people together at a time when we felt very separate from each other.
Caroline (19:00):
But as you say, I like it because it's a subtle way of saying, look, I'm doing this, because she's leading by example. And that's exactly what we should do as leaders without being territorial about it.
Chris (19:12):
It's hard work to do that with a dog because it's so enthusiastic to go to work. It's really hard getting to have time off, yet they need time off. And often people will say, oh gosh, you keep your dog in a kennel. But actually that's the only time it gets time off. It's in a safe place, it knows the environment and it really will switch off.
Caroline (19:38):
If you are enjoying listening to this show, we would really appreciate your following and rating Sheep Dip wherever you tune into podcasts. And if you've got a burning question arising from this show or there's a topic that you'd like us to cover, simply email me, caroline@RaisingtheBaa.com or send a message through any of our social channels.
(19:59):
Is there, moving specifically back to the workplace, you've given some fantastic examples though. Is there anything else that you think actually, if people are maybe listening to this and thinking, gosh, you know, yeah, that's some good ideas. Is there maybe one thing that you think actually, if you're not doing this, do this at least to move towards having some kind of wellbeing strategy in place?
Sally (20:23):
So something that I would suggest, Caroline, is the concept of marginal gains. Quite often we don't tend to prioritise our wellbeings. Firstly, it's thinking whether it's a priority for you and when is it, and then it's making it realistic for you to achieve. And that's that concept of marginal gains. So it's breaking it down into smaller changes, as you say, little and often, little and often. And it's making it sustainable for you in the long term. So there's a great book that covers this called Atomic Habits by James Clear. And he talks about the idea of making small improvements over time. It doesn't necessarily, you won't notice it day to day as such, but it's so much more meaningful in the long run. And it's up to you, it's a decision and choice that you can either make or not make. For me, what I would say to people, the one step you can do is make it small, break it down, and do it little and often over time
Chris (21:18):
In my world, I shear sheep and there's, believe it or not, there's 47 strokes to shearing a sheep. Oh, doing 48 is no big deal. But the closer you can get to 47 means that you'll shear them in under a minute. The more times you sort of dab at it, and it's very easy to dab, it means it adds on time. Now, needless to say, you're going to ask, what time do I shear a sheep in? And it's about two minutes. So I'm a good dabber.
Caroline (21:49):
So now that so many organisations are working in all sorts of different ways, it mainly seems to be hybrid. Hybrid seems to have settled quite a lot now with an awful lot of people we talk with anyway. Sometimes it's, you know, three days in two days out and they're not working full-time in the office anymore, generally speaking. How important do you feel it is for people to actually physically get together? We've already talked about sharing food, haven't we? But I meant that's more in other senses as well. I mean, why do you think it's particularly important for them to get together? I'm sure you believe it is important. Why would it be?
Shahani (22:21):
Lots of leaders, lots of people are struggling with the, well how much is enough? How much is too much? How much is not enough when it comes to actually being face to face? What difference does it make if I can see people and when's the best time to see people and what kind of work benefits best being in person compared to what we can do virtually? And we've been presented with this conundrum in all sorts of different ways in our own experience, but also in working with our clients. So we've recently done quite a lot of research in something called social capital, which you can sort of define as that glue that brings people together. And social capital exists everywhere. It's not just in the workplace, it exists in in neighbourhoods or in groups or in clubs. And what we've been curious about is we know how important social capital is in people being healthy, emotionally, physically, and psychologically, so how can we make sure that we retain that glue that's bringing people together when we're working and living in very different ways. So one of the things that we've done recently is to publish a little article on LinkedIn.
(23:25):
Yes. When we think about social capital, and to your point Caroline, about face-to-face, hybrid virtual, you know what's going to work best for people. There's no one size fits all. And for individuals of an organisation, it's really deciding, you know, what works for you. We are social creatures. We want to connect. We have an innate need to be able to connect. So what we talk about in the webinar is really thinking about what can you do to build your social capital? Because what the pandemic has really done is created a shift in social capital and an opportunity for us to think about how we might rebuild it. So, you know, building your connections but also deepening your connections further too. And understanding your network in the workplace and outside the workplace too. Ultimately social capital improves wellbeing because when you connect with people you feel supported, you feel like your stress can be reduced as well. That's something that we do explore in the webinar too.
Chris (24:24):
I'm curious, how quickly can you lose that social capital?
Sally (24:31):
My thoughts are, it depends on a number of variables. One is how connected the people were in the first place. So the extent to which there were components such as degree of trust between people, degree of able to relax, be open, be oneself, be authentic with those people. And if there are high levels of that, then actually it matters less. I think not seeing each other face to face on a frequent basis because that connection is strong already. The difficulty that we're faced with now is that many people are working together who have never had that experience of working together in person. You know, they've joined teams, have joined organisations, post pandemic. And so all of their experience has been either virtual or hybrid. And that's where the conscious effort needs to be put in. So I think that's where organisations and individuals need to be very mindful and intentional thinking, okay, so we're going to get together to talk about X, Y, Z, let's think about what the best way is to do that.
(25:28):
In the olden days, we just automatically got together in a room and done it. What sort of connection is it that I need to have with people in order to have a good quality conversation, some great outputs. And we sort of differentiate between connecting emotionally, you know, how am I feeling, but also intellectually, so what do I know? What are the facts? What do I need to share with you? What do I need to get from you? And also the extent to which we're forming relationships. So where are we in that journey? How well do I know you already or is it about deepening a relationship that's already in existence that I can strengthen. So knowing what kind of connection we need is a way of managing and measuring that. Where am I on that spectrum of how quickly my social capital might be disappearing and how I need to rebuild it.
(26:16):
And communication, I mean it's knowing that if there isn't the opportunity to pick up bits of information almost organically, because you're not around people in the same way, you have to find ways of compensating for that. So being smart in the way you use email, in the way that you use teams and the way that you use WhatsApp. So we're not overloading and overwhelming people with stuff. We are making sure that information is available to people when they need it, when it's relevant. Try things out, experiment with things and review how they're working and through that then be able to share our own experience with our clients and offer some hints and tips.
Chris (26:53):
In the sheep world, when you share a sheep they don't recognise each other. They're very visual people, been living with this person, suddenly you take your coat off and they don't recognise each other. And to me, I always think it's quite shocking that they don't, they have a bit of an argy bargy, they get a new pecking order and I guess it's like when a new team comes together, there's a bit of an argy bargy. They all work out who's good at what and then go on from there. But if you don't take the coat off and you reintroduce them, let's say after several months they still recognise each other. It's that sudden change which they don't like. Is that the same with people? Is it because the pandemic was so sudden that that's when all that stress is the oh gosh I don't know what I'm doing. Was that the real stress or did the social capital really kick in?
Shahani (27:51):
I think that's a really good point and I think it reminds us why it's so important to keep in contact in between times when we can actually be together in person. Because actually people change. They might change their appearance in the same way the sheep might have had its fleece shorn, but they might also change because they've done some stuff, you know, they've read some stuff, they've learned some stuff that they were some different people and then when you regroup with them in person, you find yourself thinking, oh oh you're not quite the same. You know, I don't recognise you in the same way. So I think for me that's a really good reason, a good rationale for making sure that even if we're not getting together in person very frequently, we find ways of connecting in between formally and informally. So I keep in touch with where you are, I notice you've had your haircut, and also it's easier then when we reconnect face to face. Because we haven't got to do the oh, you look different. We've already done that, that change has happened gradually and we're not sort of sideswiped by it. So it's a lovely analogy.
Caroline (28:48):
And I mean I'm not good at asking questions on this another topic, but I mean, when you then put the layer of diversity and inclusivity alongside, that's a whole different theme for a podcast, I think. Okay. Well that's brilliant. I'm going to bring this to a nice close here with some quick fire questions. Just to say to people listening that we will put a link to the paper and the webinar if it's sort of available to that. It is. So I think that could be interesting on the whole topic of social capital. So, we'd just like to have a quick fire no thinking shoot from the hip to each, um, just to uh, ask you, Shahani, what your favourite piece of furniture is?
Shahani (29:28):
My favourite piece of furniture. Goodness. Probably my bed because I love sleep. And sleep is good for your wellbeing.
Chris (29:36):
And I'm going to ask Shahani, if you were given a large piece of land, what would you do with it?
Shahani (29:41):
Oh gosh, that's a tough one. Probably try and create a tropical island and a beach because I love the sea and I love to surf so, um, dunno how I would do that with a piece of land. But hey, anything is possible.
Chris (29:54):
If it's in the tropics it would be very easy.
Caroline (29:57):
Sally, your favourite bird?
Sally (29:59):
Oh that would definitely be a kingfisher. It's the colour and the movement and that beautiful accuracy with which they pinpoint what they're going for.
Chris (30:08):
And if you had to travel, what's your favourite form of travelling?
Sally (30:15):
I quite like train travel and I'm saying this hesitatingly because sometimes I don't like train travel at all. Because when it doesn't work very well, it's not my favourite.
Chris (30:23):
<laugh>
Shahani (30:23):
But from my experience of train travel in Europe, I'm going to go for that. Because trains work brilliantly in Europe in my experience. And I think it's just such an amazingly relaxing way to travel. You can do all sorts of things while you're travelling. You can enjoy the scenery, you can get up and move around. It feels quite free and quite easy. So I think it's an efficient but very enjoyable means of getting about the place.
Caroline (30:45):
Excellent answers ladies. Well done <laugh>. So thank you so much Shahani and Sally for your time and tackling this huge topic and bringing your insights. It's been really, really helpful. So thank you.
Sally (30:58):
It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Caroline (31:00):
Thank you for listening today. What was your biggest takeaway or insight? Let us know on any of our social channels. We'd really love to know. Till next time, have a brilliant week.
Shahani (31:12):
Yes, thank you for having us.
Chris (31:14):
Bye for now.