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Parenting Balance Podcast
On the Parenting Balance Podcast, Teresa, a licensed mental health counselor, and Kelly, a licensed clinical social worker, debate and simplify the latest brain science research for emotional wellness. Experienced family therapists and parents of complex kids themselves offer different viewpoints on what it takes to raise resilient kids in today’s complicated world. The end result is that you will hear the latest research on ADHD and anxiety, and learn simple parenting strategies to help you find the right balance for your family.
Parenting Balance Podcast
016 Legal Empowerment For Parents With Kevin Astl
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Teresa VanPelt and Kelly Williams
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Season 2
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Episode 16
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People with ADHD break the law four to seven times more than individuals without ADHD. This explains why many parents we talk to worry about their child getting into legal trouble. In this episode, Attorney Kevin Astl explains how parents can talk to their children about law enforcement. We also discuss the legal rights parents have when making treatment decisions for their children if both parents are not in agreement.
Kevin Astl is a Family Law Attorney in the Tampa, Florida area specializing in divorce, elder law, and paternity. He's represented over a thousand individuals during his 20-year career. You can reach Kevin on his website or contact him by phone at 813-279-6699.
Here at the Parenting Balance Podcast, you'll find simple, science-based tools and tricks for parenting kids with ADHD or anxiety. Although we are both family therapists, this podcast is for informational purposes only and should not replace the guidance of a qualified professional. Join us as we debate and discuss our own experiences as parents of kids diagnosed with ADHD and anxiety and breakdown the latest research into easily digestible portions. We created this podcast to educate, inspire hope, explore new ideas and discover together what we know to be true: you are not alone, and finding a community of support can make all the difference. Please join our Parenting Balance Podcast Community here and sign up here to be the first in line for our new Modern Guide to Understanding Kids With ADHD mini-course.
Kelly Williams
Welcome to the parenting balanced podcast. My name is Kelly Williams. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and an ADHD parenting expert by experience. I'm here with my partner. Hi, I'm Teresa Vanpelt. I'm a licensed mental health counselor and anxiety parenting expert by experience. And for the past 10 years, Kelly and I have had a family practice in Florida. This podcast is for parents who want to really understand what's going on with ADHD and anxiety. So you can ditch the chaos and feel confident and happy again. And Austell as a family law attorney specializing in divorce, elder law and paternity in the Tampa Florida area. He has over 20, years of experience and has represented over 1000 individuals. During his career is joining us today to talk about common legal issues that tend to come up in our practice. Thanks for joining us, Kevin.
Hi, Kevin. Thanks for being here.
Hello. I, I have read so many studies that talk about how our jails and detention centers are filled with people with undiagnosed ADHD. And it really breaks my heart. And so, you know, I'm excited that you're here to help parents understand what they're, you know, like it's, it's not the most pleasant of topics. Think about your child's potential for getting into trouble but you know if there are things that we can be talking to our kids about should they have a legal encounter. You know that that would be really good to know. You know, because when when our kids are impulsive. Early on, they tend to get labeled, they get labeled as the bad kid. And it's not, you know, it's not fair and, but but it happens, you know. So since we're aware of the statistics. We're hoping that you have some information that can be used to guide parents when they're talking to their children about law enforcement, specifically, like, what should parents tell their child to say, if they're stopped by law enforcement.
Kevin Astl
So let's start with the basics and the basics are you have a right to remain silent in this country you have that constitutional protection that's both at the federal level and at the state constitutional level. The problem is is that most people don't understand their rights in order to serve them most people think that if they're stopped by law enforcement, they must answer or they can be compelled to answer that is not true. Basically, the answer that I'll give is just as little as possible. If you know if you're stopped for speeding. You know, if a cop says something to you like you know why I've stopped you just say no. If he says you know you know how fast you were going if you say well you know I had my cruise control in 73, and the speed limit 70 you've just admitted and consented to the fact that you were speeding and you're getting ready to get a citation. So, law enforcement is usually quite adept at asking questions in a way that sounds, you know innocuous and very nice, but really is inclined to either Garner, either a citation, or an arrest and eventually convention. So, the best case scenario is to give yes or no answers. If you can, or otherwise, if you must speak. Then say as little as possible and just give short answers. Otherwise, every statement that you say, everything will be used against that child or that individual interdimensional prosecution so
less is better. You know, so it's so interesting, Kevin because you know this problem of impulsivity. It often manifests itself in in a verbal way. And so kids with ADHD tend to find themselves in a difficult situation where they are, they feel like they've done something wrong, even if they haven't actually, and just by virtue of a, of a person in uniform standing in front of them is enough to make them think they've done something wrong, and then start trying to defend themselves like the kind of impulsive words start coming out of the mouth is. And I've definitely seen lots of situations where.
Kelly Williams
Number one, which the child, you know, then they
after they're out of the crisis whatever it is they turn around and say to their parents I really didn't do that or I didn't mean that or you didn't you know all these things. And it's really hard to to get down to the truth of it is there is there in any way, a remedy for like if your child is diagnosed with ADHD, and they shut all this stuff when illegal encounter. Is there a way to take that, you know, take the diagnosis to the court. In order to kind of argue that impulsivity and, and saying stuff you don't really mean as part of the diagnosis,
Kevin Astl
not have that experience but I'm going to go ahead and open it here and say that it's not going to matter to a criminal judge if we're talking about a crime we're talking about just like speeding or, you know, stop at a stop sign some kind of a citation that's that's somebody that doesn't have the ability to accept or in extreme circumstances but in the situation of a crime, which really no way to walk back what said the law enforcement. Now you have body cams nothing's being recorded there's, you know, a lot of agencies have had dash cams before the video recording capabilities. So those things that are said, even if they're impulsive that's unfortunately what's called a statement against interest and those are used by prosecutors and against that individual in a subsequent prosecution. So, I can't believe that that any type of ADHD or, you know, notice go to the extreme and say like a Tourette's or something like that to where they're just saying things sort of blurting things out, is going to be beneficial in fact in the criminal setting, it's still going to be used against them.
Kelly Williams
Yeah, you know, and I think that's part of what. For some of us parents is so frightening, you know, today and I don't know if this is true across across the country but certainly in Florida. Now, we have law enforcement officers in our schools as resource officers. So do you feel like that situation, can I don't know like increase the,
the probability of a legal encounter for, for some kids that
Kevin Astl
are more forcement in schools is sort of a newer thing I mean we had a resource officer when I was in high school, but that was, I think we were rolling when the only local high schools that have that have sort of a newer thing. Now it's very it's very common. And they tend to have a little bit of a softer attitude because again, their job is still the same, their job is still to that whole thing we've always heard protect and serve. But if a crime is committed on the school property. Their goal is still the same is still to gather information that's relevant to that investigation and a possible arrest and or conviction. I've seen that actually be a problem I've had I've had some experience with them, where kids in schools when they're faced with a vice principal or principal with the resource officer there, they sort of dogpile on them and it's an additional level of coercion. As I see it, to get them to talk and to testify against themselves and to possibly incriminate themselves, their rights are the same whether or not it's in a school setting or whether respectfulness. So, my, my advice to say as little as possible is always the best advice and as such, we're talking about teaching our children what's best to do if they know that they've done something wrong and they have one of two courses of action they can take they can either admit it, and try to move on and hope that helps them out, or they can say as little as possible and, you know, parents can get a good lawyer and then hopefully it goes away like that. Because a lot of times what I hear is, you know, a resource officer and a principal will sort of good cop bad cop cliche but that's really what it is. And you know it's the whole wall you know if you cooperate and talk to us now you know it'll go easier on you better on you. If it's something as simple as taking, you know, I don't know, taking a milk off somebody's tray I mean that's not going to be granted or sooner than would have been something as serious as maybe having a weapon in school or you know you had a weapon and you gave it to another child and then that became an issue and the reason I'm using that as an example is because I've done the case that I've worked on.
The more you say, it doesn't really matter it's not going to get better for you. I mean,
criminal penalties or penalties are, if anything is a misdemeanor or less than the judge can only do you know he can only do kind of jail with the child as an adult, if they're less than $1 would be juvenile detention. If it's a felony, depending on how old they are, they can be treated as and sentenced as an adult, in that situation it is imperative that they say as little as possible.
Teresa Vanpelt
And I think that I mean I'm going to kind of say it but I think that non minority kids may have a little bit more going for them, kids who are in the minority, because I think that there's this image of a criminal versus a kid who is made a mistake, talking about like bringing up to the judge about
a diagnosis or treatment, things like that, you don't see that that is necessarily beneficial.
Kevin Astl
On the front end no on the back end, possibly and by that I mean, if it's determined that they've committed a crime and the state is offering some level of agreement or, you know, there's a sentence that any any sentences any individual whatever child or an adult, they can look at sort of mitigating and or aggravating circumstances. For example, if you do have any type of diagnosis that would have made it more difficult for them to rein in those impulses that could possibly be used, for example, if, if the judge says okay well part of your probation or part of your agreement or deal with your sentences that you have to do more therapy, but you have a child with oppositional defiance disorder, you can put that child in a group setting and have that be effective. That's where that's where it's been successful in the past, again on the back end on the front end to talk about those diagnoses with the court and with the state, and to let them know and maybe craft something that's a little bit more tailored to that individual child,
Kelly Williams
the situations that I cheated most in my practice, usually involve social media these days, and it's this. It's this matter of cyber bullying. And I don't know, Kevin if you've had any cases like this but you know a lot of times, kids, you know, any kid that's differently abled is the content becomes a target. And one of the ways that other kids are bullying, kids, is by creating a fake social media account in their name. And then, you know, doing things on their behalf through this fake account. And, and then. Anyway, it has resulted in all kinds of really mind blowing
things that I've heard about it you know
Kevin Astl
that that's that's an excellent point. So I've done criminal defense work as long as I've done. Family Law and the other areas, but 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, social media, existed just as something for us to just put up pictures of our kids or our families or to connect now is used so pervasively and by such a huge segment of the population, and in large part by kids like you're saying it's not just something they use for funding games I mean there's a lot of identity that's going on and a lot of bullying and other activities that could, you know, put a child that's at risk, and further risk. Just by way of social media, it's, it's rampant and it's a huge problem, huge problem.
Kelly Williams
So, and you know, a lot of times in response to this kind of bullying is where the you know the students that I've been working with, that's where they have their legal encounter, because they are, you know, getting in a fight or threatening another student because this cyber stuff is going on that adults can't see. Okay. But then, but then the student is acting out behaviorally in school, that the adults can see, and it kind of results in being blamed for something that was instigated behind everybody's back. Right.
One of the things that we need to work with.
Kevin Astl
I mean with the advent of social media and again how pervasive it is and how often it's used is to tell these children
that what's put out there on the internet, whether it's instagram or facebook or whether it's a chat. There's a record of that somewhere, and once it's out there. It can be pulled back again there's no way to walk that back either. And that is a level of imminence that will tend to be used against them. I mean, law enforcement will simply subpoena a provider of a subpoena Facebook or whomever whatever whatever the utility is. And they'll get that information. So, we have to counsel our children to be careful what they say. I mean, If you're not comfortable saying into somebody's space I certainly wouldn't write it and put it out there on the internet, because there's a permanency there that's an issue if I walk up to somebody and I say look I don't like you. That's, that's one thing I mean that's somebody that's that's heard them that's one thing but putting that out there on the internet, especially in a context of certain conversations, or arguments or fights like you said, that could rise to the level of something that was threatening, or possibly could be a terroristic threat, I mean these days, especially with schools, it takes very little for these allegations to get really buffed up and to just go outrageous to sideways.
Kelly Williams
It is true that is absolutely true. You know, it's hard to our kids don't believe us, I think I can. For many people, when I say, You know that I can talk to my own kids all day long until I'm blue in the face, about the dangers of social media the internet, putting things out there. It has zero effect on them actually being experimental and testing stuff out, you know, so a lot of kids I think can make mistakes that way, and even more so you know you're really impulsive. Right, developmentally that's kind of where kids and teens are at Anyway, you know they don't really look at the big picture. It can't happen to me, but on a diagnosis of like ADHD with the impulsivity that just compounds the problem. It doesn't it's so available. Right. I mean,
it's like, it's really
difficult. I would love to say to my kids okay I'm gonna eliminate all of your technology. Well guess what, it's impossible because then they can't do their homework or, you know, all these things so it's really tricky I think it's a really tricky problem of parenting in our time.
Teresa Vanpelt
So I want to change gears now, if that's okay. Is there anything else you guys want to talk about about this. Okay, so this is more related to family
law. So,
this is something that Kelly and I get a lot are too frequent and
when one parent feels that a child needs treatment and medication maybe they've heard, they've gotten that recommendation. But the other parent doesn't agree. What can parents do
Kevin Astl
simple answer and it could be a complex answer when starting with a simple as parents we all hope that we can effectively co parent with the other side, even if we're not together,
or we're talking about a core setting or we're talking about parents that are together and they don't agree.
Teresa Vanpelt
Nationally I'm saying it's more when they're divorced or separated. They're not together. Okay, so So again, shared parental responsibility
Kevin Astl
implies that both parents are fit their proper, they have the health and well being of their minor child or children at heart, they put that above their own needs and their own inconveniences. So, we would hope that parties can talk about that amongst themselves when they can't. That's when they are going to lawyer up if they haven't already, or they're going to involve other professionals. So my suggestion would be court is always corporate litigation should always be the last step unless it's an emergency so
Unknown Speaker
you can go to go to mediation you can mediate simple issues, you don't have to be in every issue.
Kevin Astl
You can involve a parent coordinator, which is the professional that as a mental health or social work background, that is employed to sort of immediate conflicts informally when they're needed sort of on an as needed basis, they're usually paid a retainer and then they're there. For example, as an issue tomorrow about, you know, the medication can go to their house, the other parent is refusing to give it the bed issue can be submitted to the parent coordinator and that can either be done in person, or over the phone. And then the birth coordinator will talk to both parents and see if they can broker an agreement and if they can't. Most parent coordinators, in their agreement with the parents have the ability to pull their own trigger and to make that decision and say well under the circumstances as I understand them. It's best that you know little Johnny gets, get some medication and so you're going to go ahead and give that to him. Otherwise I'm going to have to issue a report to the court. And then step past that would be filing a motion with the court and saying hey coordinator intervention to address this issue as quickly as possible
with families where the
Kelly Williams
visitation, or the shared custody I guess is what I'm trying to say the shared custody isn't equal. It's like, you know, 6040, is that what you're talking about, or even 7030 right it's like, like, Mom has, has the kids, and during the school week and dad gets one weekend a month or two weekends, a month, but the entire rest of the time they're with mom. And, and then the mom is exhausted and frustrated because he or she's coming with these, you know this child that's having all these symptoms that could be hoped by medication but but the dad says absolutely not, I don't want you to get, you know, in Florida. You don't. Both parents don't have to agree one parent can consent to a consent for treatment which is kind of the form that you fill out, allowing your child to get medical treatment or mental health treatment, and with certain medications, they don't have to be given every day, either right so if you're trying to on a stimulant for ADHD, you could just give it on the time when the child goes over to the dead. So when I asked them, and I anxiety medications are a different story. Absolutely not, in fact stimulants are the only nurses really that you could could do this with, but you know she'll get that right Kevin is that like reasonable would that be a reasonable idea for a parent is just if the, if the ex spouse or partner is so resistant to just kind of exclude them from the decision making process.
Kevin Astl
Well, you can't exclude them from the decision making process, one of the tenets of shared responsibility is that all we call big ticket items healthcare decisions. Moral upbringing and religious upbringing educational decisions must be discussed with both parents, there's a different level or a different kind of parental responsibility culture and parental responsibility with ultimate decision making authority, where the parties have agreed or a court has awarded one parents ultimate decision making authority over one or more of those big ticket items and stuff we're talking about medication let's just say healthcare or medication decisions, but that doesn't mean that that parent is the full trigger in the side without discussing the other parent parental responsibility, does require that is discussed with the other parent, if a stalemate is reached or disagreement that cannot be resolved the parent with ultimate decision making authority can then proceed with their decision what they feel is in the best interest of the children. Now that I want to make sure that we're clear about something here. So what we're talking about is work there's there's a separate sub issue here that even if one parent has the ability to choose that and the parents disagree and the parent does make that decision because it's a single consent. That doesn't mean that a court is going to uphold that down the road and that doesn't mean that the other parent the disenfranchised one is not still going to file a motion and saying hey judge, even though she's allowed to do this and did this, I disagree with it, and still records intervention so that's even if four is a single consent state and it is. You still have to be careful with that it just can't be a blind decision or a carefree decision, it has to be made with great thought, great caution and discussion with the other parents, and again if there's a disagreement that parent has to make the decision whether or not they're going to take that unilaterally and make that decision because it could result in additional litigation.
Teresa Vanpelt
And I know that you spoke about a single consent state and dual consent state. Can you explain that a little bit because we have listeners, all around.
And I know Florida use that as a single consent state and that's consent to provide treatment. Right, that's fine.
Kevin Astl
Go to a doctor and it's just one parent with the child. There is going to have the father comparable file or will have to fill out a release and you know where folks, fill out as long as they sign that the office will treat them in a dual consent state, without both parents consenting to treatment and writing the doctor's office or the provider will not provide that service based on the exposure and liability on their part of the laws of that particular state. So Florida is not a dual consensus and it's a single consensus day again great care has to be given to how that unilateral decision might be perceived by the other parent and again in a divorce scenario where if they don't agree you know if they do agree but it's lumped into or they just say Well listen, just do whatever you want to, you know, you know, just go ahead and make the decision you take them I'm not gonna do it. You start with the parents has forced that point you really can't do much, what's there but, you know, my inclination is always to provide any advice and counsel that keeps litigation from occurring. So, you know, trying to pull these things apart trying to find out what is the core issue here is the core issue really that the child needs the medication or not or is it more than one of the parent is still reeling from the lack of control or the betrayal that they feel, you know, pursuant to a divorce or one party's conduct a lot of sub issues here and YouTube's therapist. I'm sure you're well aware of that that's a little bit outside of the scope of what we're talking about, but that is, these are considerations that we have to think about when we represent when I represent my clients when you represent your
emotions don't make things plain do they.
Teresa Vanpelt
Well, I think this was really helpful. Can you think of any other questions that you had Kelly.
Kelly Williams
Only that if we have any listeners who would want to reach out to Kevin for his services, what is the best way for our listeners to contact you, Kevin
Kevin Astl
813796699. My website is www. My lawyer, Kevin, calm. And if they just want to reach out, email me. All consultations are confidential. That means even if you have a question, it stays with me and it's confidential restore the floor of our rules. My email is Kevin at my lawyer Kevin calm.
Teresa Vanpelt
Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today, Kevin.
Kelly Williams
It was very informative very interesting
Teresa Vanpelt
that says very helpful. We hope you're enjoying Season Two of the podcast where we're experts to create more understanding about how to work with our kids. If you have a request we invite you to join our parenting balance podcast community on Facebook, and let us know what you want to hear. Thank you for listening to the parenting balanced podcast to join our mailing list, go to parenting balanced. COMM slash podcast. When you join you will be notified of upcoming live q&a. You can help us plan future episodes, we'd love to hear comments and questions. You can reach us by email. Hello at parenting balanced calm. And if you found this information helpful, please share it with anyone else who can benefit and subscribe and give us a rating on your podcast platform. And until then remember, different isn't wrong.
Welcome to the parenting balanced podcast. My name is Kelly Williams. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and an ADHD parenting expert by experience. I'm here with my partner. Hi, I'm Teresa Vanpelt. I'm a licensed mental health counselor and anxiety parenting expert by experience. And for the past 10 years, Kelly and I have had a family practice in Florida. This podcast is for parents who want to really understand what's going on with ADHD and anxiety. So you can ditch the chaos and feel confident and happy again. And Austell as a family law attorney specializing in divorce, elder law and paternity in the Tampa Florida area. He has over 20, years of experience and has represented over 1000 individuals. During his career is joining us today to talk about common legal issues that tend to come up in our practice. Thanks for joining us, Kevin.
Hi, Kevin. Thanks for being here.
Hello. I, I have read so many studies that talk about how our jails and detention centers are filled with people with undiagnosed ADHD. And it really breaks my heart. And so, you know, I'm excited that you're here to help parents understand what they're, you know, like it's, it's not the most pleasant of topics. Think about your child's potential for getting into trouble but you know if there are things that we can be talking to our kids about should they have a legal encounter. You know that that would be really good to know. You know, because when when our kids are impulsive. Early on, they tend to get labeled, they get labeled as the bad kid. And it's not, you know, it's not fair and, but but it happens, you know. So since we're aware of the statistics. We're hoping that you have some information that can be used to guide parents when they're talking to their children about law enforcement, specifically, like, what should parents tell their child to say, if they're stopped by law enforcement.
Kevin Astl
So let's start with the basics and the basics are you have a right to remain silent in this country you have that constitutional protection that's both at the federal level and at the state constitutional level. The problem is is that most people don't understand their rights in order to serve them most people think that if they're stopped by law enforcement, they must answer or they can be compelled to answer that is not true. Basically, the answer that I'll give is just as little as possible. If you know if you're stopped for speeding. You know, if a cop says something to you like you know why I've stopped you just say no. If he says you know you know how fast you were going if you say well you know I had my cruise control in 73, and the speed limit 70 you've just admitted and consented to the fact that you were speeding and you're getting ready to get a citation. So, law enforcement is usually quite adept at asking questions in a way that sounds, you know innocuous and very nice, but really is inclined to either Garner, either a citation, or an arrest and eventually convention. So, the best case scenario is to give yes or no answers. If you can, or otherwise, if you must speak. Then say as little as possible and just give short answers. Otherwise, every statement that you say, everything will be used against that child or that individual interdimensional prosecution so
less is better. You know, so it's so interesting, Kevin because you know this problem of impulsivity. It often manifests itself in in a verbal way. And so kids with ADHD tend to find themselves in a difficult situation where they are, they feel like they've done something wrong, even if they haven't actually, and just by virtue of a, of a person in uniform standing in front of them is enough to make them think they've done something wrong, and then start trying to defend themselves like the kind of impulsive words start coming out of the mouth is. And I've definitely seen lots of situations where.
Kelly Williams
Number one, which the child, you know, then they
after they're out of the crisis whatever it is they turn around and say to their parents I really didn't do that or I didn't mean that or you didn't you know all these things. And it's really hard to to get down to the truth of it is there is there in any way, a remedy for like if your child is diagnosed with ADHD, and they shut all this stuff when illegal encounter. Is there a way to take that, you know, take the diagnosis to the court. In order to kind of argue that impulsivity and, and saying stuff you don't really mean as part of the diagnosis,
Kevin Astl
not have that experience but I'm going to go ahead and open it here and say that it's not going to matter to a criminal judge if we're talking about a crime we're talking about just like speeding or, you know, stop at a stop sign some kind of a citation that's that's somebody that doesn't have the ability to accept or in extreme circumstances but in the situation of a crime, which really no way to walk back what said the law enforcement. Now you have body cams nothing's being recorded there's, you know, a lot of agencies have had dash cams before the video recording capabilities. So those things that are said, even if they're impulsive that's unfortunately what's called a statement against interest and those are used by prosecutors and against that individual in a subsequent prosecution. So, I can't believe that that any type of ADHD or, you know, notice go to the extreme and say like a Tourette's or something like that to where they're just saying things sort of blurting things out, is going to be beneficial in fact in the criminal setting, it's still going to be used against them.
Kelly Williams
Yeah, you know, and I think that's part of what. For some of us parents is so frightening, you know, today and I don't know if this is true across across the country but certainly in Florida. Now, we have law enforcement officers in our schools as resource officers. So do you feel like that situation, can I don't know like increase the,
the probability of a legal encounter for, for some kids that
Kevin Astl
are more forcement in schools is sort of a newer thing I mean we had a resource officer when I was in high school, but that was, I think we were rolling when the only local high schools that have that have sort of a newer thing. Now it's very it's very common. And they tend to have a little bit of a softer attitude because again, their job is still the same, their job is still to that whole thing we've always heard protect and serve. But if a crime is committed on the school property. Their goal is still the same is still to gather information that's relevant to that investigation and a possible arrest and or conviction. I've seen that actually be a problem I've had I've had some experience with them, where kids in schools when they're faced with a vice principal or principal with the resource officer there, they sort of dogpile on them and it's an additional level of coercion. As I see it, to get them to talk and to testify against themselves and to possibly incriminate themselves, their rights are the same whether or not it's in a school setting or whether respectfulness. So, my, my advice to say as little as possible is always the best advice and as such, we're talking about teaching our children what's best to do if they know that they've done something wrong and they have one of two courses of action they can take they can either admit it, and try to move on and hope that helps them out, or they can say as little as possible and, you know, parents can get a good lawyer and then hopefully it goes away like that. Because a lot of times what I hear is, you know, a resource officer and a principal will sort of good cop bad cop cliche but that's really what it is. And you know it's the whole wall you know if you cooperate and talk to us now you know it'll go easier on you better on you. If it's something as simple as taking, you know, I don't know, taking a milk off somebody's tray I mean that's not going to be granted or sooner than would have been something as serious as maybe having a weapon in school or you know you had a weapon and you gave it to another child and then that became an issue and the reason I'm using that as an example is because I've done the case that I've worked on.
The more you say, it doesn't really matter it's not going to get better for you. I mean,
criminal penalties or penalties are, if anything is a misdemeanor or less than the judge can only do you know he can only do kind of jail with the child as an adult, if they're less than $1 would be juvenile detention. If it's a felony, depending on how old they are, they can be treated as and sentenced as an adult, in that situation it is imperative that they say as little as possible.
Teresa Vanpelt
And I think that I mean I'm going to kind of say it but I think that non minority kids may have a little bit more going for them, kids who are in the minority, because I think that there's this image of a criminal versus a kid who is made a mistake, talking about like bringing up to the judge about
a diagnosis or treatment, things like that, you don't see that that is necessarily beneficial.
Kevin Astl
On the front end no on the back end, possibly and by that I mean, if it's determined that they've committed a crime and the state is offering some level of agreement or, you know, there's a sentence that any any sentences any individual whatever child or an adult, they can look at sort of mitigating and or aggravating circumstances. For example, if you do have any type of diagnosis that would have made it more difficult for them to rein in those impulses that could possibly be used, for example, if, if the judge says okay well part of your probation or part of your agreement or deal with your sentences that you have to do more therapy, but you have a child with oppositional defiance disorder, you can put that child in a group setting and have that be effective. That's where that's where it's been successful in the past, again on the back end on the front end to talk about those diagnoses with the court and with the state, and to let them know and maybe craft something that's a little bit more tailored to that individual child,
Kelly Williams
the situations that I cheated most in my practice, usually involve social media these days, and it's this. It's this matter of cyber bullying. And I don't know, Kevin if you've had any cases like this but you know a lot of times, kids, you know, any kid that's differently abled is the content becomes a target. And one of the ways that other kids are bullying, kids, is by creating a fake social media account in their name. And then, you know, doing things on their behalf through this fake account. And, and then. Anyway, it has resulted in all kinds of really mind blowing
things that I've heard about it you know
Kevin Astl
that that's that's an excellent point. So I've done criminal defense work as long as I've done. Family Law and the other areas, but 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, social media, existed just as something for us to just put up pictures of our kids or our families or to connect now is used so pervasively and by such a huge segment of the population, and in large part by kids like you're saying it's not just something they use for funding games I mean there's a lot of identity that's going on and a lot of bullying and other activities that could, you know, put a child that's at risk, and further risk. Just by way of social media, it's, it's rampant and it's a huge problem, huge problem.
Kelly Williams
So, and you know, a lot of times in response to this kind of bullying is where the you know the students that I've been working with, that's where they have their legal encounter, because they are, you know, getting in a fight or threatening another student because this cyber stuff is going on that adults can't see. Okay. But then, but then the student is acting out behaviorally in school, that the adults can see, and it kind of results in being blamed for something that was instigated behind everybody's back. Right.
One of the things that we need to work with.
Kevin Astl
I mean with the advent of social media and again how pervasive it is and how often it's used is to tell these children
that what's put out there on the internet, whether it's instagram or facebook or whether it's a chat. There's a record of that somewhere, and once it's out there. It can be pulled back again there's no way to walk that back either. And that is a level of imminence that will tend to be used against them. I mean, law enforcement will simply subpoena a provider of a subpoena Facebook or whomever whatever whatever the utility is. And they'll get that information. So, we have to counsel our children to be careful what they say. I mean, If you're not comfortable saying into somebody's space I certainly wouldn't write it and put it out there on the internet, because there's a permanency there that's an issue if I walk up to somebody and I say look I don't like you. That's, that's one thing I mean that's somebody that's that's heard them that's one thing but putting that out there on the internet, especially in a context of certain conversations, or arguments or fights like you said, that could rise to the level of something that was threatening, or possibly could be a terroristic threat, I mean these days, especially with schools, it takes very little for these allegations to get really buffed up and to just go outrageous to sideways.
Kelly Williams
It is true that is absolutely true. You know, it's hard to our kids don't believe us, I think I can. For many people, when I say, You know that I can talk to my own kids all day long until I'm blue in the face, about the dangers of social media the internet, putting things out there. It has zero effect on them actually being experimental and testing stuff out, you know, so a lot of kids I think can make mistakes that way, and even more so you know you're really impulsive. Right, developmentally that's kind of where kids and teens are at Anyway, you know they don't really look at the big picture. It can't happen to me, but on a diagnosis of like ADHD with the impulsivity that just compounds the problem. It doesn't it's so available. Right. I mean,
it's like, it's really
difficult. I would love to say to my kids okay I'm gonna eliminate all of your technology. Well guess what, it's impossible because then they can't do their homework or, you know, all these things so it's really tricky I think it's a really tricky problem of parenting in our time.
Teresa Vanpelt
So I want to change gears now, if that's okay. Is there anything else you guys want to talk about about this. Okay, so this is more related to family
law. So,
this is something that Kelly and I get a lot are too frequent and
when one parent feels that a child needs treatment and medication maybe they've heard, they've gotten that recommendation. But the other parent doesn't agree. What can parents do
Kevin Astl
simple answer and it could be a complex answer when starting with a simple as parents we all hope that we can effectively co parent with the other side, even if we're not together,
or we're talking about a core setting or we're talking about parents that are together and they don't agree.
Teresa Vanpelt
Nationally I'm saying it's more when they're divorced or separated. They're not together. Okay, so So again, shared parental responsibility
Kevin Astl
implies that both parents are fit their proper, they have the health and well being of their minor child or children at heart, they put that above their own needs and their own inconveniences. So, we would hope that parties can talk about that amongst themselves when they can't. That's when they are going to lawyer up if they haven't already, or they're going to involve other professionals. So my suggestion would be court is always corporate litigation should always be the last step unless it's an emergency so
Unknown Speaker
you can go to go to mediation you can mediate simple issues, you don't have to be in every issue.
Kevin Astl
You can involve a parent coordinator, which is the professional that as a mental health or social work background, that is employed to sort of immediate conflicts informally when they're needed sort of on an as needed basis, they're usually paid a retainer and then they're there. For example, as an issue tomorrow about, you know, the medication can go to their house, the other parent is refusing to give it the bed issue can be submitted to the parent coordinator and that can either be done in person, or over the phone. And then the birth coordinator will talk to both parents and see if they can broker an agreement and if they can't. Most parent coordinators, in their agreement with the parents have the ability to pull their own trigger and to make that decision and say well under the circumstances as I understand them. It's best that you know little Johnny gets, get some medication and so you're going to go ahead and give that to him. Otherwise I'm going to have to issue a report to the court. And then step past that would be filing a motion with the court and saying hey coordinator intervention to address this issue as quickly as possible
with families where the
Kelly Williams
visitation, or the shared custody I guess is what I'm trying to say the shared custody isn't equal. It's like, you know, 6040, is that what you're talking about, or even 7030 right it's like, like, Mom has, has the kids, and during the school week and dad gets one weekend a month or two weekends, a month, but the entire rest of the time they're with mom. And, and then the mom is exhausted and frustrated because he or she's coming with these, you know this child that's having all these symptoms that could be hoped by medication but but the dad says absolutely not, I don't want you to get, you know, in Florida. You don't. Both parents don't have to agree one parent can consent to a consent for treatment which is kind of the form that you fill out, allowing your child to get medical treatment or mental health treatment, and with certain medications, they don't have to be given every day, either right so if you're trying to on a stimulant for ADHD, you could just give it on the time when the child goes over to the dead. So when I asked them, and I anxiety medications are a different story. Absolutely not, in fact stimulants are the only nurses really that you could could do this with, but you know she'll get that right Kevin is that like reasonable would that be a reasonable idea for a parent is just if the, if the ex spouse or partner is so resistant to just kind of exclude them from the decision making process.
Kevin Astl
Well, you can't exclude them from the decision making process, one of the tenets of shared responsibility is that all we call big ticket items healthcare decisions. Moral upbringing and religious upbringing educational decisions must be discussed with both parents, there's a different level or a different kind of parental responsibility culture and parental responsibility with ultimate decision making authority, where the parties have agreed or a court has awarded one parents ultimate decision making authority over one or more of those big ticket items and stuff we're talking about medication let's just say healthcare or medication decisions, but that doesn't mean that that parent is the full trigger in the side without discussing the other parent parental responsibility, does require that is discussed with the other parent, if a stalemate is reached or disagreement that cannot be resolved the parent with ultimate decision making authority can then proceed with their decision what they feel is in the best interest of the children. Now that I want to make sure that we're clear about something here. So what we're talking about is work there's there's a separate sub issue here that even if one parent has the ability to choose that and the parents disagree and the parent does make that decision because it's a single consent. That doesn't mean that a court is going to uphold that down the road and that doesn't mean that the other parent the disenfranchised one is not still going to file a motion and saying hey judge, even though she's allowed to do this and did this, I disagree with it, and still records intervention so that's even if four is a single consent state and it is. You still have to be careful with that it just can't be a blind decision or a carefree decision, it has to be made with great thought, great caution and discussion with the other parents, and again if there's a disagreement that parent has to make the decision whether or not they're going to take that unilaterally and make that decision because it could result in additional litigation.
Teresa Vanpelt
And I know that you spoke about a single consent state and dual consent state. Can you explain that a little bit because we have listeners, all around.
And I know Florida use that as a single consent state and that's consent to provide treatment. Right, that's fine.
Kevin Astl
Go to a doctor and it's just one parent with the child. There is going to have the father comparable file or will have to fill out a release and you know where folks, fill out as long as they sign that the office will treat them in a dual consent state, without both parents consenting to treatment and writing the doctor's office or the provider will not provide that service based on the exposure and liability on their part of the laws of that particular state. So Florida is not a dual consensus and it's a single consensus day again great care has to be given to how that unilateral decision might be perceived by the other parent and again in a divorce scenario where if they don't agree you know if they do agree but it's lumped into or they just say Well listen, just do whatever you want to, you know, you know, just go ahead and make the decision you take them I'm not gonna do it. You start with the parents has forced that point you really can't do much, what's there but, you know, my inclination is always to provide any advice and counsel that keeps litigation from occurring. So, you know, trying to pull these things apart trying to find out what is the core issue here is the core issue really that the child needs the medication or not or is it more than one of the parent is still reeling from the lack of control or the betrayal that they feel, you know, pursuant to a divorce or one party's conduct a lot of sub issues here and YouTube's therapist. I'm sure you're well aware of that that's a little bit outside of the scope of what we're talking about, but that is, these are considerations that we have to think about when we represent when I represent my clients when you represent your
emotions don't make things plain do they.
Teresa Vanpelt
Well, I think this was really helpful. Can you think of any other questions that you had Kelly.
Kelly Williams
Only that if we have any listeners who would want to reach out to Kevin for his services, what is the best way for our listeners to contact you, Kevin
Kevin Astl
813796699. My website is www. My lawyer, Kevin, calm. And if they just want to reach out, email me. All consultations are confidential. That means even if you have a question, it stays with me and it's confidential restore the floor of our rules. My email is Kevin at my lawyer Kevin calm.
Teresa Vanpelt
Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today, Kevin.
Kelly Williams
It was very informative very interesting
Teresa Vanpelt
that says very helpful. We hope you're enjoying Season Two of the podcast where we're experts to create more understanding about how to work with our kids. If you have a request we invite you to join our parenting balance podcast community on Facebook, and let us know what you want to hear. Thank you for listening to the parenting balanced podcast to join our mailing list, go to parenting balanced. COMM slash podcast. When you join you will be notified of upcoming live q&a. You can help us plan future episodes, we'd love to hear comments and questions. You can reach us by email. Hello at parenting balanced calm. And if you found this information helpful, please share it with anyone else who can benefit and subscribe and give us a rating on your podcast platform. And until then remember, different isn't wrong.