The Pursuit of Sweet Spots: Navigating Career Transitions with Josh Brammer

In this inspiring conversation, Dr. Anna Stumpf sits down with Josh Brammer, an entrepreneur, growth strategist, Storybrand Guide, and founder of Hello Lantern. Josh shares his profound journey of self-discovery, navigating the turbulent waters of entrepreneurship and finding his true "sweet spot."

From his beginnings in youth ministry to building a successful marketing agency, Josh's career has been marked by a relentless pursuit of clarity and impact. He vulnerably recounts the identity crisis that led him to question his passion for marketing and embark on a transformative path of exploration.

Through candid insights and hard-won wisdom, Josh offers invaluable guidance for professionals at any stage seeking to unlock their potential, reignite their joy, and align their work with their deepest values. His story serves as a powerful reminder that true fulfillment often requires courage, self-awareness, and a willingness to pivot – even when it means walking away from apparent success.

Whether you're an entrepreneur, creative professional, or simply seeking greater meaning in your work, this episode will inspire you to embrace your unique gifts and forge a path that sparks genuine joy and unlocks your full potential.

Episode Quote:  "The only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven't found it yet, keep looking. Don't settle." - Steve Jobs

Collective Challenge: Reflect on your current professional role or business. Identify one aspect that aligns with your strengths, interests, and passion – your "sweet spot." Commit to focusing your energy on nurturing and expanding that aspect over the next week. Notice how it impacts your overall sense of fulfillment and joy. OR identify one aspect of your professional life where you may feel stuck or unfulfilled. Take one small, actionable step towards addressing this area. This could be as simple as scheduling a conversation with a mentor, enrolling in a short online course to develop a skill you're passionate about, or dedicating time to reflect on your career goals and writing them down. This challenge encourages you to take proactive steps towards personal and professional development, fostering a sense of progress and self-awareness.

Show Notes:

0:00 - 3:35: Introduction, quote from Steve Jobs
3:35 - 13:55: Josh's background and pivot from agency to consulting business
13:55 - 22:45: Discovering his "sweet spot" and mission of unlocking potential and sparking joy
22:45 - 30:10: Balancing work with personal life, managing scope creep
30:10 - 37:20: Biggest career challenge - starting his own business
37:20 - 41:25: The importance of narrowing focus for creatives
41:25 - 47:45: Keeping a narrow focus, avoiding shiny objects
47:45 - 54:10: Collaborating with a collective group, importance of trust
54:10 - 59:02: Josh's family life, final thoughts

Music by Music Unlimited from Pixabay

Transcript

Anna Stumpf: 0:07

Welcome to collective energy conversations, your inspiration for personal and professional growth in mid career. I'm Dr. Anna stump Your Guide to inspiring stories from a variety of professionals, a collective energy, we believe in the transformative power of connections and shared experiences. Each week we delve into narratives that spark confidence and self awareness. Join us as we elevate our growth through the power of shared stories. Welcome back, I'm excited to bring you this episode with Josh Brammer, who is been introduced to me and I've had interactions with because he is a story brand certified guide. If you're not familiar with Donald Miller story, brand framework output links in the show notes for you. But Josh has his own business. He's had lanturn, for 13 years, almost 14, and I spoke with him a little over a year ago, on a possible project. And he told me at the time, I really just don't love this part of owning a business. And I think I'm gonna make a pivot. So I was very excited to get back in touch with him, asked him to come on the show, hear what his pivot was, and kind of what his key learnings and takeaways are from that. So I'm very thrilled to bring you he's so vulnerable and so great at giving so many good examples, a story brand, right? That's what they do. But I think one of my favorite things about this episode is just somebody who from the outside looks like they have reached what the rest of us are trying to get. And then he just kind of says, Yeah, pick up my head as a pull back from that and find more work that is directly related to what brings me joy. So I'm excited for you to hear from him. But as always, I like to kick off each episode with a quote that kind of encapsulates the theme of we're going to talk about, and to quote, another incredible strategic creative is Steve Jobs. And the quote is, the only way to do great work is to love what you do. And if you haven't not found that yet, keep looking, don't settle. With that in mind, please hear from Josh Brammer, do the last time you and I had a conversation, a zoom call, it's been a little over a year ago, year and a half. And you had learned something really important about yourself with your agency and kind of the pivot you made. So walk me through all the things if you would, what, what I realized as I was in marketing for years, for almost 15 years, is that there was so much of marketing that just confuses business. It's almost like this black box that people feel like they need to and they have to and they should. And there's just so much around that that people don't know how to kind of interact with it. It's kind of like career in that space, though. You been in marketing strategy and everything since you graduated college, right? Yeah. After I pivoted out of ministry, there was a there was a, you know, probably six year college slash graduating that was in youth ministry. But it was still in communications. And so I was in marketing, nonprofit communications and selling Jesus was, you know, I was like, I was still introducing a product, it just happened to write

Josh Brammer: 3:35

a very old product, and trying to convince people what they need, like they think they have a problem. That's not really your problem. That's the That's the joke that I often make is my marketing career started by trying to get seventh graders interested in a Jewish carpenter. So ever since then, my products have been easier to sell. Moving into the strategic piece and working in like, I mean, we're joking about people not understanding their problem, like they come and they think they have this problem, and they're not getting revenue, they're not getting this and they always want to pull those marketing shiny object levers. And you'd been in that space for a long time of like being able to see things people couldn't see. Right. And that's kind of what is that what helped you evolve into starting your own agency? I'll just I'll tell the story, because this is the this is the plot. Okay. I left my agency out of frustration with seeing that there were smaller businesses that were able to be served by either the price or the size of the team, and so I thought there's probably a nimbler way to help people. And I wanted to solve that problem. So I thought that I'd solve it as a consultant. I went out and started my own company and about three months went by and people said, Josh, we like you but we don't know what you're saying and selling. We don't know what to buy from you. And the sales weren't happening. And so I turned to storebrand, which I'd already use the toolkit, I just decided to dive in and become certified in it. And I became, I began to use that as the box that I was delivering. So I was still delivering the same style of consulting. And I used copywriting as the box that people could raise their hand and say, I'm not good with words, I will get your help. So the consulting the strategy, the things that are ambiguous, I was able to put it inside of the box of we are going to write words for you.

Anna Stumpf: 5:39

And does it. I feel like that, looking at what you do copyright messaging, clarity, all that I think that helps us as humans, right. Like, I'm in the business of helping people with emotional intelligence. Like, I feel like, there's such a parallel of the clarity and the identifying the problem and how you're going to be the guy, you know, the solution that you bring. And there's so much buzzword right now, like figuring out or by telling their story and their personal brand. And all of that is becoming a little convoluted. But I do think that what you do lends itself not only to an entrepreneur or small business, but just to be better communicators, like you said, originally. Yeah,

Josh Brammer: 6:26

yeah. And so that becomes the plot. So then I'll fast forward to last year, there was this moment where I got frustrated with the agency and the business that I had built. And I had a identity crisis. And I said publicly in front of, you know, 300 other marketers on a stage at a conference, I don't think I like marketing. I don't know if I like marketing anymore. I don't know if I want to be a marketer. And so I went on a journey over the last year to really explore what was it about the things that I like to do? What what are the superpowers that I bring? When does the client feel the most energy from me. And what I found is, I pushed away and tried to do business coaching for about a year, I did some consulting, I did a little bit of marketing. And what ended up happening is, I came back into the marketing ring, because there's a moment in which the start of marketing is the is where the clarity has to happen. And the clarity is what the aha moment is what I'm addicted to, that marketing becomes the doorway that people need to walk through. It's just in a different way than how I was delivering it in the agency. At the end of the day, it's clarity, it's communication, it's sticking to the value and the problems that you're solving, right. But it's easiest for me to help people have the impact that they're looking for. If I stay in the marketing range versus in like a business coaching consulting ring.

Anna Stumpf: 8:09

I mean, this is a big discovery for yourself, because you had a very successful agency, you had employees, you had a reputation, you had a client base, you had gotten successful by other people's definitions. But you have this moment where you're like, I don't I don't like the busyness or the business of what I'm doing. And then how do you how do you walk through that? Like, how did you peel back all of the just like reality of what you were in and get to the crux of like this, I need to focus on this one small area?

Josh Brammer: 8:48

Well, it was complicated, or at least it felt complicated.

Anna Stumpf: 8:52

Well, yeah, I would think it'd have to be

Josh Brammer: 8:54

the challenge that I see. And this is the space that I help other entrepreneurs now is there's this identity crisis, where if you are the service provider, and you're the decision maker, and you're the finance team, and you're the everything, there's a whole big ball of wax tied up together, and on untangling that knot of identity. And value is very, very complicated. What I found is there's a healthy balance that you have to strike as an expert where you can't be doing hard, like, you know, quantum physics math at all times, you just will burn out. And so part of the challenge that I found as I was transitioning out of the agency model is I had basically built a system in which because of distractions because of not choosing. I created a system that was overly complicated and then I was stuck inside of that system and the real moment I was having was the sales, the marketing, the finance, all the different pressures that happen inside of every business, we're all hitting at the same time in different ways. And so it was causing this, this feeling of like, you know this, there's smoke in in the engine, and something's not something's not hitting right. And so for me, I had to decide to pivot out of the agency, I sold it to another group that that liked certain pieces of what I didn't like, just so that it was kind of an escape hatch for me to say, I need to get out of this. And I need to like, take time to get out of the smoke and let the smoke clear, so that I can figure out what roles I want to live in, I want to work in. And what I find is, the place that I'm helping people now is, it's a moment I've experienced multiple times over the last 10 years, it's the solopreneur, I'm taking all the burden of the business on myself. But because of that you're wearing like 16 different hats. And what you have to do as a solopreneur as an expert, is you have to decide what roles you're really strong in and you can do repeatedly. And you have to learn, either you're going to delete or delegate other pieces of the business. And that either means you have to really streamline your service and really focus do less, or you do less and hire people for the other pieces, which then suddenly makes you either have contractors or a small team or you know, whether they're they're part time or full time anything like that the pressure of growing a small business is often it comes back to that question of clarity. What problem am I solving for customers? How am I going to find the customers? So there's all this sales, marketing, finance delivery stuff that sneaks up on you at every turn, as a service provider? I help in that, in that mess. That right find ourselves in? It

Anna Stumpf: 12:08

is messy, and it's necessary at a certain level,

Josh Brammer: 12:12

right? Yeah. Can I give you an example? Absolutely. I was having a conversation in, in a community of marketers. And somebody said, What do you say, when you when people ask you who your target audiences. So I gave him an example of what I say now. And I gave him an example of what I said in the agency. And I was having this moment where I was realizing that's a really challenging question. And for most of the people that I interact with, that are under a million dollars in revenue, they are terrified of staking a claim to a specific tight target audience. They are afraid of niching they may have heard that, you know, you know, riches are in the niches or whatever the phrase is. But there's this moment when you feel terrified to cut off opportunity. And the person who's asking the question said, Well, here's what I'm saying today. And what they said was, I help b2b and b2c companies that need digital marketing. And then you know, they had a little trail there. And I stopped a thought you just tried to lasso the most amount of companies, right. And I had no idea who you actually are talking about. And it's the natural reaction. That's why I think a lot of small businesses actually fail is because they never last. So a very tight circle of who they can help and how they can help. And because of that, your processes and your people and your staffing and all of the things inside of the business to deliver value get exponentially bigger, or they feel like they need to get bigger. And at the same time you have the friction of if you don't choose, then how are you ever going to focus your marketing with limited resources? How are you ever going to focus your sales and actually have repeatable conversations that feel valuable and feel like you're an expert. And so I look at I have this post it note on my desk that says nice for now. Because what most of us need to do in a business is pick something and work on it and try it on. See if that fits, see if it works. It's okay to change your mind but it's not okay to not decide. They're not deciding is the death of small business in my opinion.

Anna Stumpf: 14:38

So talk about this experience that you've had this last couple of years from a personal perspective, because I would imagine if you are going through the motions wearing yourself out trying to figure out what is it that's not feeling right like where am I not getting fulfilled and why do I not love this? Like I've worked really hard to get here and I love it. How does that present itself? Your father, your husband, like you have a lot in your personal life? Like how do you find that balance? And how do you go through that professional? You know, cocoon and then reemergence? And like that. Where's the balance? And the cost? I guess? Yeah.

Josh Brammer: 15:22

I think a lot of entrepreneurs don't think about the cost, to their family, to their relationships, around a lot of this, this indecision and this lack of clarity. What I have found is, like, it's, it wasn't uncommon for me to be noodling on math on a Friday night, while I should be relaxing. Now, that's not to say that sometimes inspiration doesn't hit when you're not, you know, in your work environment. But if you're constantly thinking about other things, when you're trying to play, catch, or go to the park, or you know, see a movie, whatever the things that you're trying to do, I find that business and your, your career and the unsettled challenge, it's like it, it was like I was dragging those chains from, like, I watched a Christmas carol with my family this this winter. And like when Oh, Marley's go. So this character has all of these chains, dragging him down, and it was all have this tension. And I feel like sometimes, as an entrepreneur, all of these chains will drag on you. And you just constantly have more and more indecision, more and more things that are on your plate. And what happens is, it really impacted myself and I would get through multiple stages of I was like, you know, whether it was like continual burnout, or just feeling that, that drag that friction, and it would really make it so that I couldn't unplug. You feel that nag where you're like, Hey, I'm gonna check email, I'm gonna check slack, I'm gonna do these things. And I heard this advice. It was saying, if you stop and check your email, if you stop and check slack, you might as well go back to your closet and like put a suit and tie on. Because you mentally are no longer in family mode, you got to work mode. And while most of us don't think in those terms, and most of us don't have to, like put on a tie every day, it's, it's a mental image that helped me, because I found that it was, it was better for me to try to decide what I needed to do, and simplify the things that I allow it to happen in my work life, so that it doesn't creep up and take over the rest of everything. And I'm a very imaginative person. You know, I've been diagnosed with ADHD, I find that the creativity and the spark that happens sometimes is the superpower that I have. But if I don't create strong boundaries for that, then the business will just constantly chase me around. And it's like, it's setting fires wherever I go. Yeah. And tivity will, will just, you know, eat away at me in a way that's not healthy. Well,

Anna Stumpf: 18:25

it had to be what the friction you are feeling when you had your Realization? Because I wouldn't, I'm guessing right? Like those chains get heavier and heavier. But you you build muscle to learn how to drag them. Right, you find yourself going through those motions. And I would imagine that, in addition to some of like, what you were feeling personally, I would think your creativity was stifled a little bit being absolutely, you know, founder, entrepreneur employer mode, where that's not really where you thrive as much.

Josh Brammer: 18:58

Right? Yeah. And part of the part of the self discovery that I had to do was realize I'll use IKEA as the example. Often when you when you think about IKEA, you could go through the whole store and say, Hey, everything in here fits in a box and you can put it together. And their stuff is pretty simple when you think about it from a product standpoint. But when you walk through the store, you can see so many different ways in which they put it together and the ways in which they could bring a room to life. And I read a quote once when I was walking into IKEA that I forget the direct quote, but it said basically, that boundaries and lines are what allow creativity to happen. And what I had to learn and this is the hard part for me about the last 10 years is there are certain roles that I am good at and I thrive in. And there are other roles that creep up as you try to grow and expand the business. And the common path for a lot of people is you do a role and you get skilled at it, and then you get promoted out of your sweet spot. And then the next stage becomes a manager role or a director role, or whatever it is. And as a small business owner, the reason I sold my agency is because I had created a recruiting and sales role for myself. And I was no longer in a creative zone. And because of that, it's like I was without like water and sunlight, and I was just wilting as a person. Have you ever encountered the book by Marie Kondo about the picking up and organizing and you pick up an object and you ask Does it spark joy? Yes. And I read that book, and I had already written a personal mission statement that was talking about sparking joy, the two pieces of my personal mission statement are Unlocking Potential and sparking joy. And what I have found, personally, is that there is a sweet spot for a person where their natural interests, their natural skills, and then the piece that was missing for me for years, was thinking about the fact that the business itself is a system. And then the leadership of that business is in the job of deciding how to keep the system systematic. But most businesses have a very human component to it. So I what I find is I have to keep like a thermometer on is, are the things that I'm doing, the way that I'm showing up the way that I'm interacting with clients or with the team or with my work, is it actually unlocking more potential in my own skills and my own interest? And at the same time, is it sparking joy? Are people better off because I'm doing what I'm doing?

Anna Stumpf: 22:01

And a greater a greater people, right, not just the ones in front of you, or the ones working for you. But yeah,

Josh Brammer: 22:08

so that fundamentally connected some dots for me that I had been curious about for 10 years. But in the next phase of what I'm building within lantern, it's much more about helping people find and stay in their sweet spot, then it is about business growth. Because I think a lot of people grow at the sake of self. And they just think if I just go hire more people, if I just go make more sales, if I just get more clients as more and more and more. I'm like, Yeah, but what about the people that are in the system that are delivering the value, they need to be in their sweet spot?

Anna Stumpf: 22:50

Alongside your career technology's ramped up right now we're in like, exponential tech. And I think in some ways, you've mentioned a lot of systems and processes and things within the business. And sometimes we can get fooled into thinking, Oh, I can automate that. Or I can, you know, do this, or I can do that. And can you talk a little bit about like, in my mind, sometimes that's a fallacy. Like somebody still has to manage a lot of that and decide on a lot of that. And so is it a tripwire that is healthy? Or does it still have to be managed, in a way like when you look at what's coming, because you've had a very robust career alongside the growth of technology? And I'm just curious what your thoughts and feelings are on that in terms of the things you've been talking about, as well, like taking a look at a business owner or an entrepreneur? What kind of a help or hindrance I think this automation can be.

Josh Brammer: 23:51

It's one that I'm exploring right now, because I'm the way that AI has shown up in a new way. Lots of people are experiencing it at scale in a way that they they didn't a couple of years ago.

Anna Stumpf: 24:07

Or right, six months, I can surpass

Josh Brammer: 24:12

in part of what I am, what I am exploring, and what I am experiencing, is I call it both and can we layer technology and help us but you have to realize that speed is not the only metric. More is not the only metric. And so what I'm looking at as I approach it is how do we how do we use technology as a collaborator, not as a replacement.

Anna Stumpf: 24:50

Right? And I would imagine, to take something you've already established right and magnify it, but not try and replace Place, the organic growth of an individual and their strategy and their right eye. I think people are leaning on it for a lot of things that they need to personally go through. I worry about that, like, I worry, we're not as collaborative and connected as a society's we should be. And then all of a sudden, now we're gonna all have our artificial intelligence and our bot and our personalization. And I think, oh, no, that's not what we need to be doing right now. But

Josh Brammer: 25:32

right. I'll give you a practical example. When I started my agency, there were things that I needed to do. That required me to sit down with a cup of coffee and think about something for an hour and a half or two hours. And there are technologies now where I can have a conversation like we're having right now. I can feed it into AI, and I can get insights. And the insights are good enough that it could cut an hour out of my thinking time. No one where I still feel that humans need to be involved in that we can still put people in their sweet spot is giving people the time to still have the thinking and still think through the curation of it. Are these the right thoughts? Are these the right connections, because in its current reality, AI is not making the connections for my clients that they need me to make. There's a lot of thinking that needs to still go into it. And so I view it as a collaborator, it's like having an extra. Sometimes in marketing, we joke that it's like having a very caffeinated intern that can do a lot of brainstorming for you. Right. But it doesn't mean that you're replacing entire roles or people, you just have a you have a new thinking partner inside of that, and giving space to think through that and react to that. But it's created more opportunity for my business in the last year. It has allowed me to deliver more value to my customers, but we still have to keep a very human listening centric, decision centric, strategic slant to the types of ways that we're using it, we're not automating it completely. We're using it to speed up the the thinking process for for our

Anna Stumpf: 27:39

clients, right? Which I think is wildly important. So I asked you about this early and you've mentioned that a couple times, you are a story brand guide. And honestly, meeting you and listening to you in a workshop is what introduced story brand to me. How did you find it?

Josh Brammer: 28:02

How did I find storebrand?

Anna Stumpf: 28:03

Did you read the book? Did you like stumble across it? Like how did you have?

Josh Brammer: 28:08

The honest answer is I found story brand because I was on a old email list from Donald Miller from downloading an old company that he had where he ran a productivity workshop and he added like a journal, like a productivity journal. I downloaded that in the in the depths of my basement while I was working from home on a on a day when I was stressed out and trying to figure out how to like make, you know, make projects work. And then a couple years later, Don pivoted into story brand and I ended up on his email list. And he started to share the ideas and the concepts and because I had felt these tubs of the problems that he was describing, I started getting emails and I told somebody at my I was working in a different company I've been through three companies by the time that I got the emails about storebrand and you know trying on different roles tried different approaches to marketing and then I got these emails that said come to Nashville come to this workshop and we will explain how story can make your marketing easier. And I

Anna Stumpf: 29:23

did that was like eight years ago seven Yeah, yeah, eight

Josh Brammer: 29:27

years ago I told my boss I said I think that we have these problems. I think we should go to this workshop and see what we can learn. And we did and I've been using it ever since.

Anna Stumpf: 29:39

See go to the workshop and that's just the like, understand story brand. And then you decide I'm gonna get certified in this. I'm gonna dive I want more. Is that how you got so or was that before they even had certifications? When I

Josh Brammer: 29:55

went to the first workshop, there was no certification right? There was not even To book there was a workshop. And we went to the workshop and I have the binder in my closet. And at the workshop, there were concepts and there were, you know, the elements that became the the elements have been there. Throughout that there's an interesting piece because this is one of the things that I admire about storebrand. And the way that they have built, built that business, they took something that they knew was was working in was helpful, and they took it out into the wild. And then they continued to iterate on it and sharpen it and get feedback. And what I see for a lot of businesses is they they go out, and they act like their thing is the best in the world. And then they never give themselves time to sharpen it. Right? So I tell a lot of people they need to do like what store your brand did, they take it out, they do a workshop, they see if you get feedback from the workshop, if the workshop works, then start to add other elements, other products, other ways to do it. And so that's been a model for how I have explained for a lot of the business that that I helped market and consult with, because people want to get it. It's like we want to be 40. Before we're 40. We like just graduated from college, but we expect ourselves to be really far down the road with a lot of proven track record of success.

Anna Stumpf: 31:26

Yeah, and as you say that I'm sitting here, reflect on what you've shared today. And everything that you have really been, like loyal to figuring out for other people or things you've gone through yourself. Like there's really, that's I think your superpower is, wait a minute, I know what this feels like, wait a minute, I've been in this fog before, wait a minute, I've smelled the smoke. And other people are too let me help them figure that out. That has to feel incredibly validating for you to know that you've taken these chances. And you've, you know, been through some really hard, hard things. But then you've risen to a level of success, success, and then made some choices like this is what's best. And it may not be what's best for everybody. But I now know what this looks like and feels like and I know what these forks in the road are these intersections are going to be and I can help be your guide for that. I mean, that has to feel really validated to look in the rearview mirror and go, Aha, that all happened. So I could be here. And I think there are a lot of people I say our age, I think you're lying to me. But there are a lot of people out there in their career that haven't gotten to that place yet. So what kind of advice do you have for people who do have a level of experience and a skill they just aren't comfortable with? Being able to offer that like what what does a person have to go through? Maybe not everybody should right? Maybe not everybody should try and figure that out for themselves? But like, what kind of artifacts do you look for in your life? For what kind of feeling is it that you get that you think I have something here and I'm not sure what to do with it? Or I'm ready for something else. I just don't know what it is. One

Josh Brammer: 33:13

thing that has been helpful for me is the personal assessments that helped me understand the way that I show up naturally the way that I think things like StrengthsFinder was huge for me 10 years ago. And now there are things like the the six working geniuses. And what I find is there's a combination of factors for different people in their career. I strongly believe that not everybody is entrepreneurial, in a way that they should start something and go it alone. There are many people who are great team players, but they need somebody who is either the visionary or they've got the, you know the skills of wonder or invention. They're thinking and new novel ways about approaching problems. But I have found that for me, there's this tension point. And I started to write a book about it. The book is currently in a draft not not being worked on, because I'm gaining life experience working with clients to validate if the model is still something worth sharing. But I'll share the concept of the model. For most of us. If we're a service based expert, whether we're a consultant, a coach, a creative there's this point where if you imagine like a big map right now you are sitting on the start of the map today. You've got a certain amount of experiences and skills. You've got some interests some innate curiosity. The challenge becomes what do you do today to continue to build those skills? So if you imagine there's like a lover of building skills, as you build skills, your experience line continues, like you keep moving the.on The map because your experience happens. The question that I have had been pondering for a couple years now is, how do we help somebody build their skills and experience, but they're also exploring different paths on the map. And just because you explore path doesn't mean that it's the right fit for you, you have to test it on, you have to say, Does this unlock potential? Does this spread joy? does this provide a meaningful experience for me and for the customer that I'm that I'm helping in a business situation. And there were a lot of paths that I took that feel like that ends. But I continued to go along the map. And so, you know, remember, in Indiana Jones, when you've got this, you know, this airplane, and it's got this big red line? Well, it looks like he's going in the right direction, he knows exactly where he's going. It doesn't feel like that when you're the person in charge of deciding. It feels like you're lost in the woods. So the the factors that I look at are, how do you show up with the skills and the experiences and the things that you're doing? But how do you serve someone in a way that is valuable to them, but you also get paid to build your skills. And that's what it comes down to, you have to decide, you're just going to decide how you're going to show up. So I tell people, I'm like, decide for the next six months? How are you going to show up for six months, then evaluate it? Because it might be a different role. It might be a different industry, it might be a different company. There's lots of factors. But at the end of the day, it's about consistency. It's about showing up. You show up and then you decide was that valuable to me and to others and wasn't meaningful to me and others. And to me, that's where you find your sweet spot.

Anna Stumpf: 37:11

What do you say to people who aren't quite there, like aren't quite ready to show up? We're not sure how they would show up. I've loved that. You mentioned assessments, are there books, or podcasts or things that you would recommend to people that are out there, I think about like a there's a lot of Gen Xers and a lot of people out there that have all of these skill sets, they just are conditioned over time or upbringing or culture or things look like the I don't know that I can do that. Like I Clifton Strengths. My number one is communication. So I think we should all be talking to each other. I think that's when we learn more about ourselves, and about what possibilities are But what advice do you have for people in the pre show up stage. Like for research in

Josh Brammer: 37:57

my, in my journey, I needed to explore some things with career counselors. I went to a career counselor when I in a former life, I was a youth pastor doing communications. And as I exited ministry, I needed to do a lot of soul searching. So there were books like Dan Miller, how to add a book years ago called 48 days to the work that you love. I went to a career counselor who gave me some assessments. And it helped because what it said is, you may like things like this, and you may like things like that. But what it confirmed to me is there is not a single choice. There are types of opportunities that feel more natural to me. At the time, as an example, I was told you could go sell TVs at Best Buy. And that would work for six months, because you're influencing people to make a choice and you like influence that long term. I didn't want to be selling TVs at Best Buy for the next 20 years. Right? So little things like that, where I go, Oh, what would it be about this? That will that will feel more natural to me. You know, Dan Miller, in his book he talked about you could be a teacher. And if you teach in a rural school, or a private school, or a school, you know, that feeds into to Oxford in England. Those are all technically the same job. But the environment and the goal and the reason and the context matters infinitely more in some ways than the job. And so finding out what that looks like, you don't know unless you try and you put yourself into that situation. So I view it like a science experiment, you make a hypothesis, say, I think I would enjoy this job because of I think I would enjoy that role because of you try it on. I've tried on a lot of things over the last 20 years. Yeah,

Anna Stumpf: 40:13

and you're not done. Still trying them out. I love that about you your biggest challenge you think you've faced in your career? Maybe you haven't faced it yet, I don't know. But one of the biggest when I say big challenge, what comes to mind along your journey,

Josh Brammer: 40:32

I would say the biggest challenge was when I started my own business. And I did not have success in the first three months. Because the the identity crisis I went through, taught me a lot about the box that we put ourselves in, and we kind of grade ourselves against, it's like, we make this rubric for ourselves of what success looks like. And I think a lot of us don't actually know what we're grading on. We just put a lot of pressure on ourselves when things you know, you hit your head on the wall.

Anna Stumpf: 41:11

Well, you walked out, like a VP role, right? I mean, when you walked out of agency to start your business, you had reached a certain level of success. So to step out, and then probably felt like a little bit of a step down, right, those first 90 days,

Josh Brammer: 41:28

the technical thing that happened was I went from General Manager and strategy lead for an agency to independent do everything. And because I hadn't made a lot of decisions around my target audience and exactly how I was going to show up, I just said I was going to be a consultant. So I put on my consultant hat, and my consultant briefcase, and I said, we're going to consult. And as I shared, people didn't know what I was selling, I didn't know what I was selling, I thought I would customize everything that created a ton of identity crisis for me. Because suddenly you say, Well, I have to make something up, I have to pull from my experience and like give value. And that caused a lot of like, like the wind came out of my sails really fast. The next thing that happened and this is the the thing that from a tactical standpoint, I had to become a doer. implementer and I had been in the strategy management role for many years. So it like the doing muscles in my body felt very atrophied. And that was very challenging. And there were moments when I just had to roll up my sleeves and sit down and make myself sit at my desk and do things that I really didn't want to do or didn't feel skilled to do. And that was part of building that muscle because I'd go into the gym. Along with that the identity crisis I was going through was I said, I'm a I'm a senior leader, you know, I'm an agency executive. Well, now I'm a consultant. Well, that didn't feel like it worked. And suddenly, I went and decided to become storebrand certified. So that I had a framework that I could lean against, to not make something up, it became a thing that like I knew my customers wanted it. I had three customers asking for it. So there was there was some validation there. But in that moment, my wife looked at me and said, Josh, are you a copywriter? Like, are you a writer. And there was this voice in the back of my mind, because I had written a little bit in the agency. And the writers that was working for me was like, you just need to stop trying this, like this is not like your skill. And I had to actively overcome other people telling me what I what I could and couldn't do. And I just sit down, I would sit down on Saturday morning and start writing a website. And I the entire time, I felt like a fake I felt like an imposter. Six years later, I'm much better at it than I was then. But I still have to wake up and choose whether I take on the identity of writer because it's it's amazing that I can feel after six years of doing it and helping hundreds of clients. I can still wake up in over the last year. I said, you know, I don't know if I'm a writer. I don't know if I'm a marketer. Maybe I'm a business coach. And it's weird that you can put on a mental hat and it changes how you show up. And it actually changes the quality of the work that you do and what comes out of your fingers while you're working. Oh, yeah. And that's infinitely curious. To me. It is.

Anna Stumpf: 44:54

And it's how much of your perception of those roles right? What does it mean to be a writer What is a good writer and you looking at yourself and think, Well, I don't do that I don't have that. And then everyone else is after you for that skill. That's incredible. How hard has it been not to fall back into, like you, you know, sold off your agency got this new business model, you've got this new, even more laser focus on the part of a journey that you want to be impactful to? How hard is it to keep that narrow focus and not get that scope spread? Is it easier now that you've made the choice

Josh Brammer: 45:40

for me, because of this, because of the skills and the way that I show up, I have the gift of wonder I have the gift of invention, I have the gift of discernment, what I find is that I smell opportunity daily. And so it's a constant. Not a battle, but a constant guard that I need to put up to not chase shiny objects. And what that means for me right now is, there are ways in which I can pull from my experience I can pull from my network, but I have to decide which problems I'm tackling. Because there's an infinite amount of problems out there in the world that we could solve as a business. But we have to stay firm on the way and the who we're helping. And this is the hardest part. I was one of those students that really liked to get good grades. And what I've realized in business is, when you're a service provider, you have to decide the level that you're going to serve someone. Because the one of the biggest plagues that happens in the agency model is people over deliver, they just continue to add more and more and more, because they think it's either they're helping or they they they really care that there's a lot of things. And so part of the challenge becomes managing the scope creep of not putting too much energy and or too many extra bells and whistles on to things. But not in a way that I'm holding back from clients, but in a way that I'm serving them in the right way. So I can serve more people so I can help more companies. And that is that is a huge challenge.

Anna Stumpf: 47:39

Especially I would imagine if you get those clients and you start with their messaging, and you start with their business, and you start with them as an entrepreneur, and you're like, let's just go the next step, or we've got this box check, let's what's next, right and to have that, that boundary of okay, this is as far as I go. Right? I'm gonna hand you off now or you're you've got your training wheels, you can go for yourself. But again, I think you've mentioned a lot like finding that joy, I would imagine like pushing that person into their next, you know, phase and then turning back around and working with that next group that's got that wonder and that confusion. And like figuring that all out, that's probably where you're going to start to build that muscle of oh, it's time like, I'm starting to feel completed or depleted. It's time to go back so that you build that over time, I assume. But yeah, I can see the nice shiny object thing is hard, especially when it's fun. Like I always say that's sometimes the most detrimental F word. In business, when you enjoy certain parts and pieces or individuals that you want to like, though, this is a good time, like, let's just keep this going. But you know, that's not sustainable.

Josh Brammer: 48:51

Right? Yeah. And, and it's just, it can be really challenging. From a creativity standpoint, this is why I encourage people in the creative world, they really have to narrow and focus. Because sometimes the the creative process is the drug that we are chasing. Not that not the outcome that we're delivering to clients. And that's really challenging for a lot of people, especially if you get your identity wrapped up in the quality of the work that you deliver, or the quality of the creativity, because that's a very subjective thing. And so that's that's taken me years to build up some strong defenses against

Anna Stumpf: 49:37

and to notice the signs, right or that Yeah. So now as you sit here, your buddy year into the new venture, how do you describe what you do?

Josh Brammer: 49:52

So what I do now is a mix of business coaching and copywriting and messaging Because the gap that I continue to see is that small service businesses have to make up and package what they do. They're often selling ideas. And the challenge becomes the customer doesn't know how to buy what you do. They don't do what you do. That's why they're hiring you. And so there's a mix between creating the right offers and packages. But the real work that I'm doing is helping the business owner decide where do they want to show up? What's their sweet spot? And then how do we box that up in a way that protects them from getting out of their sweet spot and their client from getting a lot of value out of the package or the box that they're buying. Because a lot of times, there's a huge disconnect between what you say you're selling, where the client thinks they're buying. And then that stretches you into constantly adding more and more and more, and it burns creatives out. So I'm in the business of helping creatives package up their expertise in a way that's easier to sell, that keeps you in a good sweet spot for yourself in your business. And

Anna Stumpf: 51:15

talk about the creatives, why are they special and unique to you.

Josh Brammer: 51:20

So for many years, in my agency world, we helped business to business customers that sold more, they had larger teams, they sold complex products or services. But what I found was, I had an itch to help the the smaller business, the person where their identity was getting wrapped up in launching and starting and growing this business. And so I lean towards creatives, because that creativity trap, that client trap happens so frequently. For all the writers, designers, the marketers that I have met that I have worked with I've networked with for 15 years. And what I find is unless they have an outside perspective to help them, build out their package, build out the things that they do help them get a clear message, they just get stuck in their head for years, I've met people that have been stuck for 10 years. And people may love them. They may do great quality work, but they've literally been repeating the same, the same cycle for years. And they don't know how to get out of it. And that really frustrates me from a personal standpoint, because like, are they Unlocking Potential? Are they sparking joy? Are they in their sweet spot? And the answer is typically No, but I'm really good at what I do.

Anna Stumpf: 52:53

And here I am, right, I have bills to pay and people Yeah, If I

Josh Brammer: 52:59

don't help in this way, a lot of those people either are going to stay in burnout for years. And it's kind of the starving artists syndrome, or eventually they're going to hit the eject button or they're going to go get a job back in corporate and a piece of them is going to get left behind. A piece of them is left in the business. Because they don't know how to. They don't know how to reconcile

Anna Stumpf: 53:23

that. Well, and they've never gotten their joy, right. They've got they've gotten close to it. But they've really never felt it. That's that's hard to how collaborative are you with a collective group of people I know. Going through your website in some of your social posts. In preparation for this interview, you've you've got a team that you collaborate with that I would imagine is important to you and important to your clients. But you're still a solo printer, right? So how important is it to have that group that sounding board,

Josh Brammer: 53:59

I think it's so important to have a collective group that you're working with what I'm doing now and the approach that I'm taking now is I help in two ways. One, I connect with other creatives who do things that I don't do, so that they can stay in their sweet spot and I can stay in my sweet spot. And the other thing that happens is there's a lot of inspiration that needs to happen for humans, when they see somebody else have success. It becomes a believable thing that I can I can push myself to go in that direction. And so I see that the network that I'm building and have been building for the last couple of years is much more of a collective of people that are in their sweet spot with a very specific way in which they show up and help because then referrals become so much easier.

Anna Stumpf: 54:56

Well that's trust to like how important that is right like That's really the magic key that opens all the doors was when you trust someone and their consistency and their heart and you know, they're in their joy build spot, and they're gonna pull that out of other people. Like that's important. That's to me. That's the difference of like, well, let me Google and see if we can find somebody or I have a collective of people that I trust that I would have you talk to, like, that feels good. And it's good for you, too. Yeah. All right. How are things with the family? Can Do you think if we talk to them, they would notice a difference in you in the last six months to a year?

Josh Brammer: 55:40

Yeah, I think that they are seeing a lot more joy come out in my life. And so that's a continual process. You know, I know that they, they know that I like to focus and they know that I like to, to work hard. But I am finding that the more joy that I can bring into other clients, the more I kind of take that spark out into life outside. And so that I think that that's, that's a good thing to watch as a family.

Anna Stumpf: 56:16

It's amazing. It's gotta be great. Does it feel? Do you feel guilty? Sometimes when you get in that joy? Because you hadn't had it for a while? Like, does it feel like

Josh Brammer: 56:25

oh, no, I don't feel guilty about it. I feel, if anything, I feel remorse that like when somebody when somebody, you know, gets news from the doctor, and they go, oh, I need to start eating healthy. I look back I go, What if I had just eaten healthy for the last 10 years? Like, how much better would I have felt the whole

Anna Stumpf: 56:44

time? Like you're giving your body the right oil and nutrients? And you're like, Oh, this is how this is supposed to feel?

Josh Brammer: 56:50

Right? So. So once you get into your sweet spot, I think there's just so much relief. And then if anything, it's it's a little bit of, you know, sadness that you look back and go, Why didn't I just make these decisions sooner?

Anna Stumpf: 57:03

Right. But I think what's beautiful about what you do is you have historically through seasons of your life, funneled that into, like how you can show up and help people not do that, right. Like you recognize where they are, and you recognize what they're feeling. And you think, Oh, I know, I know what you need right now. All right, my friend I've learned so I knew this is going to be so fascinating. After our last conversation, which again, was a long time ago, I knew you'd only gotten more committed to making these changes in your life. And I always learn things from you. And I'm just incredibly inspired by your passion, and clarity. I know that comes at a cost. But it's definitely got to be one of your superpowers. People can find you on LinkedIn. And your website is Hello lantern dot Hello lantern.com. And there is a plethora of information and ways to get you for speaking engagements, workshops, coaching, and business coaching. There's a group that you have you have individual coaching, you will do copywriting sessions. There's just there's so much good information on the website on different ways you can engage with Josh and get all of the inspiration or collaboration really looks like some of those groups are full, but there are waitlists, so different ways to engage with you. Thank you so much for your time today. I know, it's probably your most precious element that you're trying to preserve and protect. And I appreciate you spending an hour of it with us. Yeah, it was so great to connect. Yeah, this was dual purpose. I got to catch up with you. But I get to tell the world too. So it's kind of nice.

Josh Brammer: 58:49

Yeah, it was so much fun. Yeah, good.

Anna Stumpf: 59:02

It's the conclusion of another great episode. And you know what that means? We believe in the power of practical wisdom. That's why at the end of every episode, we propose the collective challenge. This is a small actionable step for you to integrate these lessons learned into your daily life. So our collective challenge after speaking with Josh is to really reflect on your current professional role or business. Identify one aspect that aligns with your strengths, interests and passion or as Josh called it, your sweet spot, and then try and commit to focusing your energy and nurturing and expanding that aspect over the next week. And maybe as you think about what your sweet spot might be, maybe you don't have one handy or a natural, organic sweet spot. If that's the case, then maybe focus on one aspect of your professional life where you feel stuck or unfulfilled. And then take a small actionable step toward Addressing this area, something simple like scheduling the conversation with a mentor, checking out and finding like a short online course, to develop a skill that maybe you're passionate about, or dedicating just time to reflect could be journaling on your career goals and writing them down finding those gaps. What you're really wanting to do is take some proactive steps towards your personal and professional development and make sure you have a sense of progress or self awareness or movement forward, that you're finding. Hope that works, keep in touch, send an email through the website at collective energy coach.com contact form. And let me know how these are going. I would love to hear how your collective challenges are going. Thank you for joining us on this episode of collective energy conversations. Today's stories and insights are just the beginning of our collective exploration into the vast landscape of personal and professional development. If today's conversation inspired you please share this episode with your friends, family or colleagues who also might find value in our collective wisdom. Your sharing helps us grow and expand our community. We'd love to hear your thoughts and experiences. Connect with us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, at threads at collective energy coach, and check out our website at WWW dot collective energy coach.com and become part of the collective. Until next time, keep growing, keep connecting and keep sharing your story because every voice matters in the journey of growth. I'm Dr. Anna Stumpf, and this has been collective energy conversations where we elevate growth through shared stories.