Showing up as you are - Part 1 - with Gary Anello

In this special series “Showing up as you are”, recorded during 2024, Jay Humphries hosts leadership expert Gary Anello. Together, they explore the critical themes of diversity, equality, and inclusion in leadership and daily life.  

In this first episode, Jay discusses their personal journey over the past two years, including coming out as non-binary, dealing with burnout and depression, and the importance of showing up authentically in life and leadership. Gary talks about his recent career presentations in Portugal, positive intelligence coaching based on the book 'Positive Intelligence' by Shirzad Chamine, and the significant impact of mindset shifts. 

The episode also delves into how past experiences shape our perceptions and the importance of embracing the present moment. 

Read more: Lorena Wüthrich, writes The Poisonous Impact of Avoiding the Truth - Reflections on the special series "Showing up as you are"

Follow us on Instagram: @hocosoconversation and Linkedin: HoCoSo Conversation

Transcript

Showing up as you are - Part 1

[00:00:00] Jay: I am your host, Jay Humphries. Welcome to the HoCoSo Conversation.

[00:00:17] Hi, I'm Jay Humphreys and I want to welcome you to a new chapter of the HoCoSo conversation. This new chapter is not just for this podcast, but it is for me personally. This is the first time I published a podcast in over two years. And in that time a lot has changed. I came out as non-binary. I burnt out, and I've been working through depression with the support of therapy, medication, close friends and family.

[00:00:41] I've been finding my way back to what it means to show up in the world again. For years, I taught embodied and communicated leadership, always grounded in the belief that authenticity matters and that it's possible to lead with a moral compass rooted in dignity, inclusion, and what it means to be fully human.

[00:00:59] And yet, like so many of us, I had to learn what this truly means when life hits hard. This new series showing up as You Are is a conversation between myself and Gary Anello, a leadership expert, coach, and dear friend. These recordings are not interviews. They are real unfiltered conversations like the kind we'd have on a Sunday morning.

[00:01:19] You're simply invited to listen in. What we talk about is urgent, how to embrace diversity, equality, and inclusion in a world that can feel increasingly polarized. We talk about the kind of leadership that creates spaces for people to be themselves, not just at work or at home, but across every part of their lives.

[00:01:38] Because when we have to compartmentalize who we are, we start to disconnect from ourselves, from others, and from life, and that disconnection is one of the biggest contributors to stress and mental health challenges in our modern times. I also want to share something personal and radical. I believe that telling the truth, especially as a leader.

[00:01:59] Has become a radical act. We live in a culture where outcomes often prized above the reality. But I believe leadership means respecting human dignity and human life along the way, not just as a window dressing when you reach the end goal. And finally, I want to give a heartfelt thanks to Lorena Wuethrich, a recent graduate and powerful advocate who helped bring this series to life.

[00:02:24] The reflections you'll hear or read alongside these episodes are her interpretations. And her encouragement has been instrumental in getting these conversations out into the world. So whether you are here for personal insight, professional growth, or simply to hear two humans explore what it means to lead and live with authenticity.

[00:02:42] ​

[00:02:42] Thank you for joining us. Let's begin.

[00:02:46] Gary: Yeah, so when we talked about, what we wanted to talk about today, we talked a lot about, showing up and how you show up what is authentic and how you present yourself 

[00:02:57] we talked about CVS and resumes, and I was thinking about how it's important to do that. But what strikes me is there's homework that has to happen before that, 

[00:03:10] There has to be kind of an investigation of the kind of company you wanna be a part of to begin with. Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:19] Jay: Right. 

[00:03:19] Gary: how do you talk about things? How do you tell your story on a cv? 

[00:03:25] Yeah. Let's take a step back, Gary. Let's, set the scene.

[00:03:27] Sure. how are you doing, Gary, today? what's your mood? what's your place? generally how are you feeling about life? What's going on? 

[00:03:35] Gary: yeah, so how I'm feeling now, I'm feeling really good.

[00:03:38] I've just come back from, doing some career oriented, presentations in Portugal. I work with some executive MBA students and I've just come back from time with them. it was kind of a big, European thing, so it wasn't just our students, it was students from all over the globe who came here.

[00:03:59] so they had this experience of Germany. it was very cool because when that happens, I've been in Germany for a long time, but when I see them. Experience Germany for the first time. It helps me Mm-hmm. Re-experience Germany When people say, oh my gosh, these castles are so beautiful.

[00:04:19] This river is so beautiful, this is so amazing. And I take it for granted. Right. And I think we do that a lot. so that's been really good. it's been hectic, it's been busy. but yeah, there's a lot going on and it feels good. It feels like it's all going in the right direction in terms of the message that I wanna get out.

[00:04:39] The things that I think are really important with respect to coaching and with respect to career and who you are, it feels like it's all starting to come together. 

[00:04:48] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:04:49] What about you? I'm just wondering what's the. Turning point.

[00:04:53] What's been the turning point, in terms of things moving more in the right direction versus maybe when we were speaking before, there was like a lack of momentum potentially. Let's describe it like that, like a what's next kind of question. But I sense now there's a lot more momentum behind what you're saying, so I'm just wondering.

[00:05:18] Yeah. Was there something specific or was there a series of events or was there a mind shift or what was it that kind of helped this momentum? 

[00:05:29] Gary: I think it's through a particular, kind of coaching process that I'm going through right now, but it's really about a mindset shift.

[00:05:38] It's about. Taking these moments of adversity and rather than getting stuck in the adversity, you sort of shift how you look at them. it's through this idea of positive intelligence. And it's a really brilliant book and takes you through, you know, we have these things in us that kind of really wanna tear us down.

[00:05:59] They really wanna take us down. And what he does through a long process is helps you to be aware of them, stop them, and then use another part of you that actually can take that challenge and turn it around and make it something positive and powerful. And that's what I've been really focusing on 

[00:06:20] there hasn't been anything concrete that's changed, but it's been the mindset shift. It's been the fact that I'm looking at the exact same thing that I've been up against And you just look at it differently.

[00:06:32] Yeah. let's maybe explore that a bit more. like looking at something differently. how do we do that? So we are looking at exactly the same, potentially even the same situation, but through a different perspective and, you know, lens, glasses, whatever you wanna call them, to kind of energy.

[00:06:59] So, yeah. Is is there a how behind this, is there something you put your finger on and you go, look, I feel like this is how I was able to do it. Is there something there 

[00:07:12] Gary: There is something there. I mean, without getting too much into the methodology of this particular 

[00:07:16] Jay: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:07:17] Gary: This particular coaching program, which I'm happy to talk about later, and I recommend highly, and it's, if you're a coach, it's free, by the way. You don't, you don't have to pay for, it's, it's brilliant. essentially, there are parts of us that really want, he calls them saboteurs and they really want to.

[00:07:37] Get in the way. They're about how we were raised. They're about experiences that we had when we were younger. They are the things that really wanna stop us from moving forward, from improving, from flourishing, and there's one kind of overarching judge, which is a main saboteur.

[00:07:55] And then there's these accomplice saboteurs. it's the person who, it's the one who's hypervigilant, the one who thinks everything is gonna be terrible. It's the avoider, which is the person, those are the two big ones for me, which are the one that says, okay, this is not going to work out, so I'm just not gonna do anything.

[00:08:13] so I'm just gonna run the other way because none of it's gonna work out anyway. And so there are all of these saboteurs that we all have, and they are all really sneaky and work, very carefully. and he does kind of anthropomorphize them, right?

[00:08:28] So they are almost like a persona. but they have really strong traits. And what you do very early in this whole process is you learn to recognize them. And there are things physically you can do. It's very much like mindfulness training where you experience this negative thought and you immediately stop yourself and you do things physically, 

[00:08:53] You either move. You change location, which you hear about that in mindfulness a lot too. If you get stuck, just get up and move, go for a walk. if you are getting caught in a negative thought loop, just stop, think about something else. they talk about how if you can't sleep at night, the worst thing, you know, don't, if you're stuck in bed and you can't fall asleep, don't pick up a book and start reading.

[00:09:18] That's not what you wanna do because it's just gonna keep you awake and keep you in that thought process. so the idea is to take these saboteurs and interrupt them and replace them with what he calls the sage. the sage is the part of you that is really who you want to be, and, encourages you to really think about.

[00:09:41] How can I take this? And he talks about knowledge and power and inspiration and how do I take this negative thing and what knowledge can I gain from it? What power can I gain from it? What inspiration can I gain from it? it's a long complicated process. It's an eight week process, but it's essentially taking this negative experience, recognizing it for what it is stopping it right when it happens, and learning to find ways to shift it, learning to find ways to change it.

[00:10:15] So it is very much about mindset shift, it's very much about mindfulness. And it's brilliant. because like I said, there isn't anything really concretely that's. Changed in terms of what I'm doing. It's just that when I get into the negative thought process of I can't do this. I'm not capable, I'm not competent, nobody's gonna wanna see this, nobody's gonna be interested in this.

[00:10:43] I immediately stop it and I shift it. And that's allowing me to just go, okay, well I'm going to do this. I was, talking earlier about, this LinkedIn live thing that I'm gonna be doing next week. And one of the questions, in order to prepare for it, she wants to know, well, what can you offer?

[00:11:08] What? And I thought, I don't have anything to offer. I don't know what I can offer. Then I thought, yes, I do. I have tons that I can offer. And so I just immediately on the spot, came up with something, wrote it down, and that's what I'm gonna offer. And it's not, something I made up. It's not fraudulent, it's just recognizing that yes, I actually can do this.

[00:11:30] I've stopped myself saying, no, I can't. No I can't. Right. So it's just pushing through that and saying, That's your judge saying you're not good enough. You're not competent, you're no good. Nobody will wanna hear what you have to say.

[00:11:46] Nobody's interested. There's 10,000 other people who are way better at this than you are. all of which might be true, none of which matters in the end. 

[00:11:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:00] Yeah. Therefore we have somehow an influence over our own reality. Through what? Through that observation You can call it a technique as well. it's very powerful. easier to say, harder to practice. 

[00:12:16] Gary: it's, I won't argue with you there. I mean, much easier said than done, right?

[00:12:20] I mean, 

[00:12:21] Jay: yeah. 

[00:12:21] Gary: but you know, Jay, I think there is

[00:12:24] like anything, it's all easier said than done. It's very easy to look at it on paper and go, how hard can this be? Mm-hmm. Right. it is, it's all like that. 

[00:12:38] Jay: Yeah. 

[00:12:39] Gary: It is more complicated than that. But I think part of this is that you recognize that it is just hard. It is just going to be difficult.

[00:12:49] And that's a, you know, I've talked about resilience and I talk about inclusion and diversity, and it is hard. You feel it is uncomfortable. whether you are the person who feels excluded or you feel like somebody's telling you you are being exclusionary. It's hard to hear those things.

[00:13:08] It's hard to experience those things. 

[00:13:10] Jay: Yeah. 

[00:13:11] Gary: But I think once you do, That's the step forward. Always. 

[00:13:16] You mean experiencing, hardships. And then learning from those. that's where the step change happens it's through these challenging situations which we maybe haven't been able to absolve or figure out.

[00:13:35] But taking the opportunity to figure out what went wrong, maybe having a look at what our personal saboteurs in that particular situation and trying to learn from them. it's an interesting situation 'cause I, you know, this morning, unfortunately, finished a, relationship.

[00:13:52] We finished a relationship, 

[00:13:54] one of the questions I asked as we were walking after, it was clear from both sides that this was the only way forward was, I said, I do believe there is a learning in here for both of us. There is something positive to come from this experience. And I said, look, is there anything positive you can take from this experience?

[00:14:19] Is there any learning? this relationship, this situation, the way it developed, the way it finished must have happened for a reason. 

[00:14:30] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:14:31] 

[00:14:32] Maybe those reasons aren't obvious At that second. But we did explore it. We did discuss it. It's very hard when you're in that emotional situation I was more self-reflective about my own, failings and taking responsibility for them, saying, my observation was, this happened.

[00:14:55] I did this. This was the consequence of that. And this is the situation. my partner, her perspective was, you did this. She said, I can't see yet the positive in this. I can't see, you did this and you did that. Mm-hmm. And you did this.

[00:15:15] And I said, okay, that's fine. I guess I was just feeling that, I needed to take responsibility, for my own failings and I wasn't going to start pointing out what I saw, or perceived, to be wrong with her in the relationship. I realized that the onus lot is on me and my own perception and expectations.

[00:15:45] So I was just taking ownership for my part. so just going back and I was able to identify some saboteurs in that, reflection. I was able to express those. maybe it's made me more aware of those. Obviously it's a bit too late, for that particular relationship. But hopefully, you know, 

[00:16:02] let's hope we don't make the same mistakes too many times, so. Well, you know, we hope. Yeah, exactly. We hope. Exactly. this is kind of in the spirit of, showing up as yourself, which is the overall topic of this, this kind of openness at the beginning is you and me showing up as ourselves.

[00:16:24] This is the reality of the situation. We could come on here and say, everything's Fantastic. this is what it's all about.

[00:16:29] This is the conversations we've been having for a long time. It's like about showing up as yourself and trying to, just be as. Genuine as you possibly can be. and express yourself as clearly as you possibly can. I think that's all we can really do. Right. and yeah, so I'll stop there for a minute 'cause I'm sure you've got many questions.

[00:16:51] Gary: We move on to side 

[00:16:52] topics. 

[00:16:54] Gary: Yeah. I do have a question and I don't know, you may not be comfortable and I don't want it to sound too leading. you said when this conversation was taking place that

[00:17:07] you kind of suggested that there were things that they could have seen that there was good that came out of it. That there was a positive to it. 

[00:17:18] yeah. Kind of like a learning rather than finishing on a negative, right.

[00:17:22] As in this relationship was broken and that was it. And it was a disaster. I was just wondering, Is there something that we can both leave ourselves with that is more optimistic? 

[00:17:33] Gary: Okay. that sounds a little bit different than what I heard at the beginning, which was it was almost like you were trying to impose some meaning you were really eager to find meaning in it.

[00:17:47] And I was curious whether, you know, maybe it wasn't the time for the other person as the person said, I see no value in this at the moment. I see nothing, effectively. so I was just kind of curious what that's about and it's not accusatory. 'cause I think we do see these situations and you and I have had plenty of conversations about you go through something and you want there to be meaning.

[00:18:15] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:16] Gary: And sometimes it's just not apparent. Which is not to say it's not there. Yeah. But it's just not apparent. and it's curious. I wonder if there's a way that we can slow ourselves down and say. I see no value at the moment, and that's fine. I don't know what the value of this is going to be.

[00:18:39] I don't know what the outcome of this is going to be, and this is actually something that's part of this positive intelligence thing maybe you just don't see it at the moment. 

[00:18:47] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:48] Gary: But I think it's really a natural part. You know, it's kind of how we're wired and how we've trained ourselves.

[00:18:53] we come up against adversity, and we think, okay, that there has to be something that comes out of this. I have to learn something. 

[00:19:01] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:03] Gary: I have to learn something. And I think we put ourselves under pressure to learn something and we give ourselves deadlines. and so I wonder 

[00:19:10] Are we doing ourselves a disservice by.

[00:19:14] Maybe wanting to impose an artificial deadline for a learning, for a takeaway. Hmm. maybe it is something, and again, in this course, he talks about things that happened to him when he was much younger. he tells a famous story about a stallion that was stolen and all these different things happen it's a supposedly a Chinese story.

[00:19:36] And he keeps saying, the person whose stallion was stolen, people say, oh, it's terrible. And he says, well, I don't know if it was terrible or not, who's to say? And so all of these things happen. And finally, it gets stolen, then comes back, and then his son is on the stallion and falls and breaks his leg.

[00:19:57] And then there is a war that breaks out and the sun cannot go off to war. And people realize, ah, this is an example of a positive because it's very possible then that his son would've gone off to war and who knows what would've happened? And it's just this idea that things happen and the takeaway, might be there,

[00:20:19] but maybe we don't see it right away. and I think that's true, but I wonder,we convince ourselves I've gotta find a reason for this having happened. 

[00:20:31] Mm. 

[00:20:32] Gary: I don't know if that makes any sense. Yeah. It does. 

[00:20:34] I think it's, my observation, Gary, around this is that I.

[00:20:38] At least my belief rather than observation. I believe that life has meaning no matter what the situation, whether it's a good situation or a bad situation. However, reflecting on what you're saying, it's really around timeframe. we may not be aware of that meaning maybe years from now.

[00:21:06] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:08] however, I really like the idea of not putting any pressure on finding the answer. Because then that creates a false connection with the identity in a way because we're then trying to find answers there and then, or soon after to come to some kind of justification that then we can kind of say, ah, okay, that's it, you know?

[00:21:31] But then that has an effect on our overall authenticity in a way. We're actually not allowing ourselves to just be and live and experience. So, yeah. Right. That's interesting. maybe there is the allowance to ask ourselves, do we find any meaning in this?

[00:21:50] Without putting any time pressure and without putting any expectations on it, just allowing ourselves to ask that question can be a form of acceptance. To your point around sometimes just accepting things as they are. 

[00:22:05] Jay: Yeah. 

[00:22:06] And realizing they're neither good nor bad. They are what they are.

[00:22:10] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:11] And then allowing ourselves to say, maybe there is meaning in this. Maybe one day I will understand, the meaning from this experience. It kind of allows us some peace in a way. 

[00:22:28] 

[00:22:29] Gary: I grew up in a really traditional Catholic family and I don't really identify as Catholic now, I don't follow a particular faith, but one of the things that you hear.

[00:22:41] Christian tradition. It's not just Christian traditions or, or, or Catholic denominations. It's in a lot of religious and spiritual traditions that things happen in their own time. They don't happen on our time. that's exactly what you're saying, it's in Buddhist traditions, it's in a number of religious and spiritual traditions that things happen when they're meant to happen.

[00:23:08] And there's something about, I mean, you can call it arrogance, but I don't think that's it. I think it's just a need that we have to make sense of things. things happen.

[00:23:20] In a time that sometimes we just can't fathom, we don't understand it. It needs to make more sense to us, more immediate sense to us than it does. it's interesting 'cause it is very much about that. it robs you of that experience of being authentic, of showing up as who you are in the moment when it happens.

[00:23:46] If you're constantly trying to look for what's the value, what's the lesson, what's the learning? What do I get out of this? where's it leading me? Where's it taking me? how do I immediately take whatever this thing is and process it and make it into something good the next time around?

[00:24:02] Hmm. you kind of lose out what's right. In front of you. I mean, I was talking to a therapist about this several weeks ago possibly getting in a relationship with somebody else.

[00:24:14] And I don't have any idea who that might be at the moment. I was talking about my expectations of what the next thing should be, and the therapist who, is wonderful, said, 

[00:24:28] why not just enjoy the time that you're gonna have with somebody. And I was like. Exactly, but I don't know how to do that because they're right. The therapist is absolutely right, that there is life that's right in front of me

[00:24:46] 

[00:24:46] Gary: I'm not fully appreciating, not fully living, because I'm always thinking about the next thing I'm thinking about. You know, I'm in the process one of, in terms of professionally things that are happening. I'm in the process of getting German citizenship, trying to build a particular kind of coaching and facilitation practice, and thinking about where I wanna live in a couple of years and what that's gonna look like.

[00:25:09] And the therapist was like, but what about today? Whatcha doing today? And I said to them, Hmm. Yeah, that's a good point. And it's helping me, to not be so anxious to have an answer. Right. And so I am talking to somebody now on a regular basis. We're not dating, but I am talking to somebody on a regular basis and it's really nice to just be having the conversation with him, you know?

[00:25:43] Mm-hmm. To just be chatting back and forth. Mm-hmm. Um, he used to live in the city that I live in. He doesn't anymore. and so that probably limits the ability to actually have a date with him. But the point is that I sort of ran scared a year ago when I first started talking to him. Because I thought about all the things that could possibly go wrong and, you know, tying it to this program of what the judge was saying you know, this is all gonna blow up in my face anyway, so why bother?

[00:26:14] But just recognizing that there is this thing right in front of me that has actually got tremendous value. And without trying to impose meaning, without trying to impose a lesson, what I'm gonna learn, how it's gonna help me, and just kind of just shut up and enjoy it, you know, in a way. And it's hard, but it's what I'm learning to do.

[00:26:45] I, um, actually went to an NU Club, Northwestern University, alumni Club event last night. and there was a philosopher, from India he was coming from philosophical teachings, but applying them into kind of western, pragmatic perspectives.

[00:27:10] And He articulated in a very simple diagram what you were explaining, he was saying that ultimately we have these worries about the past and anxieties about the future. And that if we focus our attention on the moment those anxieties and worries disappear.

[00:27:35] Yeah. And amazing. he said, That's it. So someone was like, well, how are you supposed to plan for the future? And he's like, you schedule some time, you make time for yourself, and you think about it and you plan it at that particular point in time. How do you make amends for your past?

[00:27:58] You schedule some time. You think about the things that you wanna make amends for. 

[00:28:03] Gary: Ah, particular time. That's really interesting. That's really 

[00:28:06] interesting. So you, I hadn't heard 

[00:28:08] Gary: that piece of it. That's fascinating. 

[00:28:09] So you are not constantly in this past, present future. And that allows, I feel, it allows that space to also then appreciate the present and we start to realize, at least from my limited experience in this, that everything is a gift.

[00:28:36] Everything. We start to realize that every interaction is a gift. Everything that we end up doing is a gift. 

[00:28:43] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:44] Because you realize there isn't a future. There isn't a past, actually. It's all in our own mind. We think we have a future.

[00:28:56] And of course we remember a past. Right, right. Actually Neither exists. 

[00:29:02] Gary: It's right now. 

[00:29:03] Yeah. And that's 

[00:29:05] Gary: fascinating. 

[00:29:06] Yeah. And that goes back to this authenticity piece. 

[00:29:12] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:13] Is that the more we realize that in order to be present, we have to be ourselves as much as we possibly can, and we shouldn't be thinking among myself, am I myself.

[00:29:25] It's about letting go of as much as we possibly can of the things that hold us to our past. And also letting go of those things that are projecting us into the future. 

[00:29:38] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:38] You know, okay, I want to be successful, so I'm gonna be this great CEO and I'm gonna be standing up on stage. if you are bringing that future into the present, you're not in the present.

[00:29:49] You are projecting your future self into the present. And that's gonna have an impact on the relationships that you're having. if we do it the other way round and we say, well, I'm not good enough because I don't have the experience. I didn't do that well last time, 

[00:30:03] That's gonna impact our present because we're gonna be undermined by our past. 

[00:30:08] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:09] And I know it's so easy to say and really hard in practice, but I feel like the awareness of it, is at least the starting point. 

[00:30:17] Gary: Absolutely. I mean, one of the things that he focuses on is really everything that when you think about the things that happen to you, and he even goes so far as to talk about very traumatic things that happen mm-hmm.

[00:30:29] To him as he takes you through this course, very traumatic things that happened to him. And he was much younger and, he sees them as gifts because they absolutely have brought him where he is. Now, you know, I've talked about my divorce from my husband in May of 22 an absolutely horrific time, and I still wish, I mean, I look back, do I wish it had happened?

[00:30:55] No, I don't. I wish we had been able to find our way to have a successful marriage, and that would've made me exceedingly happy, but it didn't. What I have got from that though, is tremendous focus professionally as a person. The empathy that has allowed me to grow.

[00:31:17] I wouldn't change that for anything. yes, I miss my marriage. I miss my ex-husband, but I wouldn't change. The gifts that I have got as a result of that, not for anything, It's made me a better person.

[00:31:34] It's made me a person who listens better, who hears what people have to say, better. I find myself still wrestling with, years ago I was married to a woman who I loved dearly. and she left for reasons of her own that have nothing to do with my sexuality.

[00:31:52] And here I am 30 years later, still feeling compelled to tell people that she was the one that left. Now, I love her dearly. She and I are friends. We see each other from time to time. We have a great time. But there's something in me that says. I don't wanna get blamed for this. And it's very interesting because I'm so far beyond that.

[00:32:21] It's was 1993, I'm, it's 31 years ago. I'm far beyond that. But there is that small part of me that still says, I don't want to be on the hook for this. I want people to understand this wasn't my decision. And it's something I wrestle with because Why do I need people to know that my life is now what it is now?

[00:32:45] there is a part of me that wants to control. You talked about this past, present, future. There is this desire that I have to control my past because it influences my present image. it influences how people perceive me now. but I know that it serves nothing.

[00:33:05] it really serves nothing for me to feel compelled to make sure that people understand that information. it has no bearing on the relationship that I have with people now, and yet there's that sort of residual, I don't wanna get blamed for this. I don't wanna be the bad guy in this situation.

[00:33:24] I've been a bad guy enough in plenty of other situations, no doubt. Right. but I don't wanna be a bad guy in this one. So it's really, fascinating this past, present and future and what has happened to us? What we have now is,

[00:33:39] 

[00:33:39] Gary: it's looking at all of the past and recognizing that it is all a gift. I certainly don't know what my life would've turned out like had my ex-wife and I stayed married. Even if it wasn't my decision. It was her decision. That was probably the best thing that ever happened because looking at my life now, I can't imagine having a life like that now.

[00:34:06] It seems so alien to me. It seems so inauthentic to me. I might have been miserable. had that situation continued as much as we care about each other and still do, it wouldn't have been who I am. It would not have been who I'm, And that's really the gift.

[00:34:27] Yeah. wow. There's a lot there. I guess my observation of this is that we are the stories we tell ourself as well. 

[00:34:39] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:40] And we have to be mindful about that as well. That if we are the sum of the stories that we tell ourself, we have to be very careful which stories we tell ourselves.

[00:34:53] It was interesting, you know, how Post agreeing that, we're gonna go our separate ways. There was a, conversation about what happened and it was really fascinating to see that there were two completely different perspectives on what actually happened and led to that outcome.

[00:35:12] Completely different. I had one story and she had another story. Yeah. And it was very clear, even from us sharing our stories, there was no way that we were gonna be able to bridge those stories together. Right. And so it made me realize, wow, we are what we perceive. We have to be really careful. And I'm not saying I'm right, by the way.

[00:35:41] There is no right, there is no wrong, it's my perception. It's just that unfortunately my perception and her perception we're too far apart to reconcile. And that's why sometimes, we are the sum of the stories we tell ourselves. There is a reason why, I guess you've told yourself that story about your ex-wife.

[00:36:03] It holds true to you. And you also have the choice and the power to change that story if you want to. If you feel it would be more beneficial for you today, that story is in the past. there are many stories from my childhood I held onto because it propelled me, it gave me drive, it gave me ambition, it gave me all these things, in terms of achieving certain things.

[00:36:31] And at some point I just let them go. I realized those stories, weren't serving me anymore. And it was really my perception, I'm not saying I, dismissed that perception and said it wasn't true. I just let go I didn't replace it with another reality.

[00:36:52] I just said, okay, that's fine now, thank you. I don't need that story anymore. and sometimes we don't have to change the story. We can just let go of that story because we don't need it anymore. It isn't who we are. 

[00:37:08] Gary: Yeah. 

[00:37:10] I think 

[00:37:10] coming from the background as an actor, it's my first career. There's a great Japanese film, Rashomon, which is quite famous every cinema class has it in every university.

[00:37:20] They run it at some point, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it essentially tells the story of this crime that happens in this little village. four different people recount the crime. 

[00:37:34] Jay: I dunno the film, but I'm curious. It's, 

[00:37:35] Gary: it's a meditation on what the truth is.

[00:37:39] Because they all saw the exact same crime and they all have. Very different ideas about what they saw And what they experienced. And it's fascinating and it's become this sort of classic, and in many ways, cliched now because it's from the fifties a great, Kurosawa movie.

[00:38:00] And it's brilliant. But it is this idea that we can all experience the same thing and yet have very different experiences of it. hearing what you're saying, I think is just really powerful. You have this experience of the end of this relationship and she experienced the same end of the relationship, but it looks totally different to her.

[00:38:33] 

[00:38:33] Gary: I know that I would have the same conversation with my ex-husband. I know that if I sat down with him and said, why do you think it ended? 'cause this is why I think it ended very different stories. I know we'd have very different stories, and it happens all the time.

[00:38:52] It happens all the time when people are at work, when they lose their jobs, when they get fired, when the company says that they're not a fit anymore. there's the experience, there's the thing that happened. 

[00:39:08] Jay: Hmm. 

[00:39:08] Gary: And then there's my perception of it. and how I saw it. And it's your perception of it.

[00:39:15] And how you saw it. And then there's maybe hrs perception and how they saw it And it's just always fascinating because it's this notion of like, really, really what's the truth? you had experiences as a young person. They have shaped who you are.

[00:39:33] It's your experience of it. It's your response to it. It may not be, you know, the things that I experienced and my brother experienced, we experienced the same thing. We have Very different perceptions of what was going on. And we've talked about this.

[00:39:49] I've had conversations with him about our parents. my father passed away in 2015, but my mother is still with us he and I have conversations about that experience of growing up with them. We lived in the same house. We had the same parents, we experienced the same things. They didn't treat us radically differently.

[00:40:15] We have very different experiences of what that was like. Very different responses to that. what's the truth? I dunno. Exactly. 

[00:40:23] So here's a question and I'd be curious how you perceive this or how you respond to this. Why don't we ask the question more often?

[00:40:34] How do you perceive this situation and how are you experiencing life? the reason I'm asking that is because I have the impression that in order to Create a connection with somebody. We feel that we have to understand that person and therefore have a similar perception of the reality.

[00:41:04] And if there is a misalignment, like there is a big gap between that experience and the reality, then we can't really have a connection because we're on completely different pages. but it comes back to can we appreciate somebody without understanding, do we need to understand?

[00:41:25] And this is going back to authenticity and allowing people to be themselves. I don't understand what it's like to be a gay man. 

[00:41:39] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:40] I presume you don't understand what it's like for me to be non-binary. 

[00:41:45] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:46] And yet you could ask me how it feels. You could ask me how I perceive the world or feel the world.

[00:41:55] I could do the same to you. The gap may get a little bit closer, but I still wouldn't understand you. I would know you better. I would feel closer from your sharing of your perception of the world. And that sharing is also a gift that you've allowed me to experience your perception and experience. Vice versa.

[00:42:21] And then that brings us closer together. So then we are talking about maybe comprehension or we comprehend each other, we know each other not to understand each other. And I feel that maybe that's the kind of thing that we should be looking for in our relationships, personal work colleagues, not to necessarily understand.

[00:42:52] Mm-hmm. It doesn't matter actually,

[00:42:56] Gary: that's a really good question because there's always, this tendency when you're coaching people to want to ask questions, to understand, one of the first things that a really prescient coach trainer will ask you is, why do you need to understand, and what do you need to know that's going to help you help them figure out their problem?

[00:43:27] Because in essence, if you think in terms of pure coaching, that's what you're there to do is help them figure out their problem. your understanding of their problem doesn't matter. when people ask. To understand. I think there's value because it reflects a certain amount of empathy.

[00:43:47] it's, as you said to comprehend. I want to,

[00:43:51] 

[00:43:51] Gary: not that I want to feel your experience, but I want to know what that experience does to you. Yes, exactly right. I don't need to have the experience of being non-binary. My therapist, non-binary. I don't know what that's like 

[00:44:09] we were just talking about this last week, being born female, but being non-binary. and the frustration they feel because of the perception of who they are. and it was interesting because as a cisgender gay male, I hear it. I don't get it.

[00:44:30] I honestly don't get it when people talk to me about somebody who's born male, but identifies as non-binary, you know, but dates women, I don't, I really, I don't get it. But the point is, it's not for me to get, it's for me to just acknowledge that that is your experience.

[00:44:52] that is who you are. And it's my responsibility not to understand it, but just to accept it. Mm-hmm. To just acknowledge that that is your truth. do I need to know the answers? Do I need to have gone through it? No, it's a fascinating question 'cause I think we do want to understand, if that need to understand is about empathy and about, I want to somehow take on board that you have a very different experience than I do and that it's a different experience that 

[00:45:24] I don't know what that's like. That's enough. they talk about it in diversity and inclusion all the time about having to ask and understand is it a responsibility of the outsider or the marginalized person? Is it their responsibility to teach?

[00:45:39] it's really not. What matters is that people go, okay, this person exists and I just have to respect that this person exists. I don't know what it's like to be a black, indigenous person of color, but I do know that a person like that exists and that they have an experience that's very different to being a white, middle-aged, cisgender male, gay, or straight or bisexual 

[00:46:09] It's different and just recognizing that difference. and this is what, you know, going back to what we said, kind of started off the conversation with this idea of you have to find a place where, to the extent that you can anticipate it, you have to find a place where you feel like you know where your tribe is, where you belong, I've talked before about, making sure that people know that I'm gay, not because I feel like I have to wear it on my sleeve, but because I need to know that I'm in a place that will accept me for who I am.

[00:46:43] ​

[00:46:48] Showing up as you are is a multi-part series. It consists of four episodes, so please make sure you check out the other ones after listening to this one. I.

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