Showing up as you are - Part 2 - with Gary Anello

In part 2 of this special series “Showing up as you are”, recorded during 2024, with Jay Humphries and leadership expert Gary Anello; Jay delves into themes of authenticity, diversity, equality, and inclusion, emphasizing the importance of telling the truth and leading with integrity. They discuss the personal impacts of not living one's truth, referencing plays such as Eugene O'Neill's 'Long Day’s Journey Into Night' and Arthur Miller's 'Death of a Salesman' to illustrate the consequences of inauthenticity. 

Through candid and unfiltered conversations, Jay and Gary explore the challenges and importance of showing up as one's true self both personally and professionally.

Read more: Lorena Wüthrich, writes The Poisonous Impact of Avoiding the Truth - Reflections on the special series "Showing up as you are"

Follow us on Instagram: @hocosoconversation and Linkedin: HoCoSo Conversation

Transcript

Showing up as you are - Part 2

[00:00:00] Jay: I am your host, Jay Humphries. Welcome to the HoCoSo Conversation.

[00:00:17] Hi, I'm Jay Humphreys and I want to welcome you to a new chapter of the HoCoSo conversation. This new chapter is not just for this podcast, but it is for me personally. This is the first time I published a podcast in over two years. And in that time a lot has changed. I came out as non-binary. I burnt out, and I've been working through depression with the support of therapy, medication, close friends and family.

[00:00:41] I've been finding my way back to what it means to show up in the world again. For years, I taught embodied and communicated leadership, always grounded in the belief that authenticity matters and that it's possible to lead with a moral compass rooted in dignity, inclusion, and what it means to be fully human.

[00:00:59] And yet, like so many of us, I had to learn what this truly means when life hits hard. This new series showing up as You Are is a conversation between myself and Gary Anello, a leadership expert, coach, and dear friend. These recordings are not interviews. They are real unfiltered conversations like the kind we'd have on a Sunday morning.

[00:01:19] You're simply invited to listen in. What we talk about is urgent, how to embrace diversity, equality, and inclusion in a world that can feel increasingly polarized. We talk about the kind of leadership that creates spaces for people to be themselves, not just at work or at home, but across every part of their lives.

[00:01:38] Because when we have to compartmentalize who we are, we start to disconnect from ourselves, from others, and from life, and that disconnection is one of the biggest contributors to stress and mental health challenges in our modern times. I also want to share something personal and radical. I believe that telling the truth, especially as a leader.

[00:01:59] Has become a radical act. We live in a culture where outcomes often prized above the reality. But I believe leadership means respecting human dignity and human life along the way, not just as a window dressing when you reach the end goal. And finally, I want to give a heartfelt thanks to Lorena Wuethrich, a recent graduate and powerful advocate who helped bring this series to life.

[00:02:24] The reflections you'll hear or read alongside these episodes are her interpretations. And her encouragement has been instrumental in getting these conversations out into the world. So whether you are here for personal insight, professional growth, or simply to hear two humans explore what it means to lead and live with authenticity.

[00:02:42] ​

[00:02:42] Jay: Thank you for joining us. Let's begin.

[00:02:46] Gary: Jay, 

[00:02:46] Jay: good to be back. Good morning. Good to be back. Nice, bright, sunny Sunday morning. a little unusual 

[00:02:51] Gary: for Germany, but I'll take it. I'll definitely, yeah, exactly. 

[00:02:54] Jay: Me too. Yeah, it's just nice. I think, uh, spring is here. I just had my quick swim, 15 minutes getting easier and easier, 

[00:03:01] Gary: Ever amazed that you do that to yourself. 

[00:03:05] Jay: Yeah. Now we're enjoying it, right? Yeah. Actually it's funny actually, it's less enjoyable now that it's warmer. it's really enjoyable when it's really cold here. That's interesting. 'cause you get the real shock to the system. that's the real buzz now it's kind of like, uh, it's nice, you know, 

[00:03:20] Gary: but 

[00:03:20] is it less enjoyable, but easier 

[00:03:22] Jay: it's kind of a slower enjoyment. more appreciation. Whereas in the winter it's like this kind of shock and, there's an adrenaline that's like the boost of endorphins. there's a kind of awakening to it.

[00:03:34] This is more of a okay, you know, it's kind of the difference between waking up and jumping outta bed that's the winter one and waking up slowly stretching and getting outta bed. that's this time of year. so yeah, it's, um, actually I was speaking with someone and the analogy they were using is like, the cold water is the immersion into parts.

[00:03:54] Of our life where we get a bit of a shock or a surprise so I guess that's in the topic of what we've been discussing and the topic of this podcast. just I was curious how's it been recently and is there anything you can connect with what we're discussing 

[00:04:08] Yeah, 

[00:04:09] Gary: sure. Yeah. So I, diversity? Yes. Well, some of the things that we touched on in our last conversation. this past week, I went to London very briefly to see a play it's an American play that's been around for, literally a hundred years. it didn't get produced until after the playwriter passed away.

[00:04:29] it is about this family that's just. Absolutely miserable. Um, the patriarch of the family is, 

[00:04:36] Jay: what's the, what's the name of the play?

[00:04:38] Gary: the Play is Long Day's Journey Into Night, and it was written by Eugene O'Neill it's long and relentless.

[00:04:45] produced not so well. It can run up to four hours long. this was produced at about three hours plus an interval. There have been productions that are two and a half hours and an interval, which is amazing to move it that fast, to move the dialogue 

[00:04:59] Jay: that 

[00:05:00] Gary: fast.

[00:05:00] So that you cut that much time off of it. It's Quite a big task, because it's so dense. There's so much that happens. But this family and the patriarch was an actor, quite well known in his day, sort of breaking down. Now as he's gotten older, his wife who had then called, you know, rheumatism, I guess now is essentially might be called rheumatoid arthritis.

[00:05:26] mm-hmm. Because the, because the husband was so cheap, sent her to a cheap doctor who immediately put her on morphine, which she got addicted to. and quite shocking in this period of time she's actually shooting up the morphine herself.

[00:05:40] in 1912, which is when this thing takes place, would've been quite a shocking thing, to have happen even though it didn't get produced so much later. the older son is kind of disappointed, an alcoholic and broken down, and then the fourth son is dying of consumption or tuberculosis.

[00:05:57] it's just four hours of just bleakness. the reason I bring it up is ' cause this ties back to, what we've been talking about 

[00:06:10] Jay: it sounds tragic. It sounds like a tragic place. It's 

[00:06:12] Gary: really tragic. what's tragic about it is that nobody tells the truth in the thing.

[00:06:19] Nobody tells the truth and the truth that's right in front of you. Nobody wants to see. the youngest son has. What was then called consumption. The mother in the midst of her morphine addiction refuses to see it. The father who knows she has the morphine addiction, thinks that she has finally beat it this time.

[00:06:42] the older alcoholic son kind of sees everything for what it is and realizes that nobody wants to tell the truth. it's just really powerful You know, my acting background tells me when I think about, you know, sort of classic plays and classic dramas, like that's at the crux of what happens.

[00:07:03] Like another great American play, death of a Salesman, one of the characters says mm-hmm. Nobody tells the truth here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody tells the truth in this family. 

[00:07:10] Jay: that was one of the most, marking points of the play. I remember that play. I saw that in London.

[00:07:16] It struck me so much because if I remember the premise of it, this, salesman that they all look up to comes back and they all have these hopes and dreams that he kind of encourages them to go and do. 

[00:07:31] Gary: Yeah. 

[00:07:31] Jay: Right. And they all had these hopes and dreams, that they hadn't done yet.

[00:07:36] They were energized by these hopes and dreams that they hadn't done. it was a long time ago, but he encourages them through his own strength of personality and the fact that he had gone out to accomplish his hopes and dreams that they go out and do the same.

[00:07:50] at the end of the play, there's this huge disappointment. If there was this huge, it was kind of realization that they had lived, waited, waited their whole life to live their hopes and dreams, and it wasn't what they expected it to be. 

[00:08:06] Gary: and in that play, yes, that's exactly true.

[00:08:08] He had based his entire identity on this perceived success that his brother had. And there's this revelation during the play that one of the sons has always resented the father because he cheated on the mother, and the mother never knew. in the end, he.

[00:08:26] realizes he's never going to achieve what he wants to achieve. And ends up taking his own life even then there is this sense that there are people who don't. one character. talks about, that he was a great man.

[00:08:43] He just lost his way. He just didn't get it. And even the wife, as she's at his graveside, she doesn't wanna believe that. He just thought there was no way out. And so, yeah, I mean that's this whole thing and with this play with production of Long Day's Journey and tonight with a couple of really great actors, which is why I wanted to go see it, they were actors whose work I knew.

[00:09:10] you might know from the TV show succession, Brian Cox, plays the head of the family but yeah, I mean, just this idea that the poisonousness of just not telling the truth, but, and not, saying what's going on. 

[00:09:29] Jay: Yeah.

[00:09:30] ​

[00:09:31] Jay: why is it that we find it so hard to tell the truth?

[00:09:38] Why is it that we feel that we are doing people a favor by not telling the truth? it's interesting so that it's like, it's not like you're telling lies, but you're not offering clarity. You see something, you perceive it and you don't say it. and it's almost done, out of protection, out of, it's not my place, it's not my responsibility.

[00:10:04] I don't need to put myself out there. Why do I need to risk upsetting somebody or creating a conflict or confrontation? yet this lack of clarity creates chaos, doesn't it? In all kinds of relationships, human relationships, friendships, business relationships.

[00:10:22] It creates chaos because there is so much room for them. Misunderstanding and lack of being, heard unseen. appreciated. Acknowledged, right. it's really. this kind of clarity andtruth, they're kind of linked right one, you have to be able to see first, right?

[00:10:43] Mm-hmm. That requires clarity in order to offer a truth, right? You have to be mindful that, what we're perceiving is only our version of events and our version of reality. We have to be mindful that it's not necessarily the truth. so we have to be very thoughtful with that as well.

[00:11:03] Yeah. 

[00:11:05] Gary: I think there's something in what you mentioned about. Risk and protection. you posed the question at the beginning, like, why do we think we're doing other people a favor? But I wonder if we don't think we're doing other people a favor, we're doing ourselves a favor. we disguise it as doing them a favor.

[00:11:26] But really you mentioned fear, and it goes back to the psychological safety we talked about before. You know, this idea that if you feel like you don't belong, why would I put myself out there? Why, why would I put myself out there?

[00:11:43] I mean, that happens at work. in life, in relationships. in romantic relationships. in friendships. Why do that? there's too much at risk. there's too much at stake because if I'm wrong, they're not gonna lose.

[00:11:58] I'm the one that's gonna lose. we each have respective journeys. speaking, specifically to mine, having split up from my husband a couple of years ago, the thought of being in another relationship terrifies me. Not because I'm trying to protect the other person.

[00:12:17] In a sense I am, because it's gonna be hard for me to be who I am. To that person, but it's hard for me to be who I am to that person because I am scared about what the outcome is going to be if I show them who I am. I think that speaks more to this idea about risk and protection.

[00:12:42] I think, so much of coaching just comes down to this idea that it's a journey of trying to understand who you are what you believe what you value and what matters to you.

[00:12:55] And if you don't have an understanding of that, none of it matters. you can't make any sound business decisions. you certainly can't really have solid relationships. if you just don't know what you stand for and you don't know who you are. and that's why I think this is always a theme in these incredible tragedies, whether they're Shakespeare in theater, in novels, or in movies.

[00:13:23] How often do we see in movies, it's about people who just can't come clean with who they are. it's a deeply embedded problem. I haven't really thought about it that way before, but it's a really deeply embedded problem. Why can't we? What are we so afraid of? in just coming clean with each other about.

[00:13:49] Jay: Yeah. That's a huge question, right? It's a tiny question. 

[00:13:53] Gary: It's a little tiny thing. Just something to think 

[00:13:55] Jay: about. you mentioned fear, right? And, I think the aspect to this is that in order to be open, in order to be vulnerable, and Brene Brown puts it really well, I believe.

[00:14:13] It takes enormous courage, and it takes enormous strength to say, this is me. This is who I am, this is what I stand for, these are my values. And be prepared to take the flack. That comes with it. It's extremely difficult. And anybody that tells you that it's not hasn't done it.

[00:14:35] we all build up our ego, from very early childhood to protect us from that pain, from that vulnerability, from that exposure, from that, rejection, whatever it might be. And, you know, it's. you are right. This coming clean, this truthfulness, this clarity can only come when we are truthful and honest with ourselves.

[00:15:04] We have to be extremely honest with ourselves. it's inauthentic to be honest with other people when we can't be honest with ourselves. that's not healthy. it first takes inner work to say, who are we? What do we believe in?

[00:15:19] How am I gonna show myself to the world? 

[00:15:22] Am I gonna show myself as like my real self, my open, vulnerable self? or am I going to create or be a different version of myself, Unknowingly, in most instances, but when we become more aware of who we are.

[00:15:37] How we want to show ourselves in the world. for me it's very clear. When I came out as non-binary, I knew in every fiber of my body and every cell of my body, this is who I am. I knew that I was an am Jay.

[00:15:52] And it was so powerful and I felt such a liberation of old self, for want of a better word.

[00:16:06] and the first thing that happened was that, my partner left me and the university rejected me two places of very safe spaces. Weren't safe. my initial reaction was to kind of retreat into my protective self, the self I knew didn't cause any problems.

[00:16:29] The one that was accepted and, understood by others because it was easy. Right, right, The white male, the authoritive white male, easy peasy. Right? Super easy for people to get. Ah, okay. You are from England, you speak English, all right, you've got a good education. Ah, okay.

[00:16:48] You're straight. Ah, you are married. Was married. Ah, you're divorced. Oh, you're a single parent. That's already a bit interesting. Right. You might have a partner, you might not have a partner but then coming out as non-binary, it changed.

[00:16:59] Yeah, then it changed the dynamics. It was like, I'm not in a predictable box anymore. And it exposed me in a really big way. and, you know, it took such inner strength and work to just say, no, this is me. This is me. And I have to take the consequences of it. I have to, because otherwise I cannot live truthful with myself.

[00:17:33] I can't. It will just be tearing me apart. And I, realized when I came out, that's what I've been doing for a very long time. I just hadn't acknowledged it to myself. and now I have, and it makes itIn some ways so Less tiring, so less tiring. It takes so much effort. 

[00:17:51] So it takes so much effort to not be ourselves. We have no fucking idea. Right. It, you wake up every morning, you wonder why you're fucking tired most of the time. You're tired because you're not being yourself. You're wondering about what other people might think and what they might say, and if I do this, then how's it gonna be perceived?

[00:18:09] Fuck it. Fuck it. Yeah. It's so much more liberating to just be yourself and say, I'm okay with that. And It's not my job to make other people feel comfortable at all. as soon as I realized that, and you were very helpful with this because we had several conversation about this, and that was a realization for me to kind of get to that place.

[00:18:33] Gary: Yeah. 

[00:18:33] Jay: and it really crystallized in my 50th birthday last weekend when I had, you know, my dearest and nearest, except yourself and a few others who couldn't make it. 

[00:18:44] Gary: I wish it was I was busy watching a play about familial misery. Exactly. 

[00:18:48] Jay: Which we can now bring together 

[00:18:49] Gary: destruction and Yes, exactly.

[00:18:51] Jay: We can bring together. it was for me. just a beautiful safe space where I could really openly share and communicate. I held it at the place where I came out, a place called Goya Ona, came out to myself and bringing all of my, or most of my friends and some family there to share that with them in that space felt very whole.

[00:19:14] It felt, yeah, this is my truth. And I want to share this with you. this is my story and I want to share my story with you because I care about you so much that I want you to know who I am. it's kind of liberating in a way. 

[00:19:32] Gary: I really wish I'd been able to be there.

[00:19:34] I wanted to be there anyway. the more I hear about it, the more 

[00:19:36] Jay: you're there in spirit. 

[00:19:37] Gary: But I think, something you said at the end really struck me, first of all, we've had this conversation before about consciously identifying to people, not because you feel like you're on a soapbox, but because you need to feel that you are in.

[00:19:54] A safe place and that I have to identify, I have to announce, Who I am, because I have to know if this is not gonna be a safe place for me, then I need to get out now while I still can, you know? get out Well before they lock the gate behind you.

[00:20:08] And, something that you, said at the end, which I think's really powerful about how important it was for you to share this with people. I think this is important to remember, and I don't know how enough people give enough credit for this, the level of respect and love that it shows to them that you're doing that.

[00:20:31] That you're saying, look, I trust you. This is how important you are to me. I'm trusting you with the deepest. Scariest, most uncertain, unfamiliar part of my life. And I want you to know about it. I want you to know that this is me, this is who I am, and I'm choosing to share that with you.

[00:20:57] there may come a time when it will all be easier But the point is that in this moment, to take this moment to say, I've gathered you group of people here, because you're the most important to me to talk about something that is the most important thing to me.

[00:21:17] I think there's something about. that level of respect you show people when you say, here I am in my entirety. And it matters that you're here to witness that.

[00:21:30] Jay: Yeah. I hear what you're saying. I would also interpret that as trust. it's like sharing that is a expression of trust. It's also saying, I trust you. It also means I have to take the consequences of it. because you don't know.

[00:21:50] You don't know what is gonna happen next. You have no idea. you just are saying, I trust, I'm entrusting you with this vulnerable part of me, and I'm entrusting you to do the right thing. it's a gamble, right?

[00:22:07] It's a real gamble, right? and in, in a relationship you can, you know, it's easier in a relationship maybe to kind of comprehend when you kind of share something that is extremely intimate that maybe you haven't told anybody else. that's the first step of vulnerability entrusting somebody with something and you kind of wait and see what happens, I mean, you kind of wait and see. You don't tell them everything at once, right? you don't share everything at once. You share something and see what happens. do they protect it? Do they acknowledge it? Do they share something themselves to kind of show that there is a space which you can both step into, 

[00:22:54] Do they show that they are protecting what you've said like they are identifying in a way that they realize how precious it is, or do they use it as an opportunity to kind of, 

[00:23:07] play with you, wound you, whatever it might be. Right. You know, once you've kind of shared something, you put it into that space, you have no control. then I just feel like the step is on the other person or the other. Maybe it's a team or whatever it might be in that, in that group setting.

[00:23:28] You have to kind of see and experience the reaction and then you know if the space is safe or not. Right? 

[00:23:35] Gary: and that's exactly what you were saying earlier, that absolutely requires, a level of trust you know, in organizational terms they talk about trust being the basis of everything 

[00:23:46] And that's the baseline. There's gotta be trust, there's gotta be trust given, there's gotta be trust felt. And I think that's true of every relationship. And yeah, to reveal something that is so deeply personal, to discuss something that is so deeply personal and intrinsic to who you are.

[00:24:06] And the level of trust that that takes, because Then there is the risk that is somebody just gonna kind of mess with you after you do it. Is somebody not gonna take it seriously? Is somebody gonna say, listen dude, just push through. You'll be fine. You know, which people do. is somebody gonna say, oh, you're overreacting.

[00:24:30] you'll be fine. you won't feel this way in a couple years. there's a huge risk In talking about those things and sharing parts of you that are so real you don't do it right away, you don't do it all at one time. 

[00:24:42] You don't start dating somebody and go, here's the book of me. Please read it before we go on our next date. You know, please read it before we get together again. It doesn't work that way. if, first of all, they'll run screaming as they probably should, but they, but, but it's just this idea that it takes time, trust takes time.

[00:25:03] Yeah. It isn't just something that happens automatically. Exactly. You can say it's my choice to be a trusting person. Nevertheless, there's a part of you that's constantly saying Is it okay for me to do this? And you can err on the side of Yeah. I have to believe that it's okay to do it.

[00:25:24] And I think that generally that's true. I think it's generally important to be able to say, I'm going to choose to trust here. you know, says a guy who hasn't been on a date in two years, but I think there is, but I'm coming around to it. because for a long time I said, no, no, no, no, no, 

[00:25:43] And now I'm realizing actually I'm encountering people in my life that I'm curious about, that I'm interested in, that I'm attracted to that I think I could actually spend time with and enjoy and are fine with. Parts about me that I'm scared of showing. Mm-hmm. but yeah, there's something about that trust that, I think you're right, it has to be there, 

[00:26:05] So when do you start giving it? when's the right time to give it and how do you know when it's the right time to give 

[00:26:10] Jay: it? Well that, alright, so this is,the practical part of our conversation, right? Mm-hmm. So we've got two areas with a personal, professional lens on, right?

[00:26:22] I mean, that's the idea of this show, right? so let's have a look at apps versus cvs. All right. Mm-hmm. So they're both areas, let's say a dating app, right? Mm-hmm. so at least people can kind of get the construct and a cv, right?

[00:26:40] they're both communication tools within which we put ourselves out there as an individual. One is personally relationships, one is professionally, also relationships. 'cause you're trying to connect with somebody in the company, hopefully that reads it and goes, this is somebody that I would like to engage with or hire, or whatever it might be.

[00:27:01] On the dating side, it's somebody that goes, oh, this is somebody that I would like to maybe communicate more with. And maybe go on a date, 

[00:27:09] Gary: for lack of a better word. 

[00:27:12] Jay: Yeah, exactly. So it goes back to how do we do that? How much truth do we share at the beginning? How much do we expose ourselves?

[00:27:25] How much vulnerability do we put out there? I know what my answer is today, but it took me a while to get there and I guess it took me this experience of pain that I've received since coming out as non-binary to kind of get to this place. But I'm curious where you are at on this as well I mean, mine's eyes realistic, by the way, mine's idealistic.

[00:27:49] Gary: well, there's a what and there's a how. How I'm not entirely sure yet. I don't know what the roadmap is to get there. But what I do believe is that ultimately, and this ties together, everything we've been talking about in these last few conversations 

[00:28:06] people are going to know you one way or the other. If you are on a dating app, whether it's an app where you're meant to meet, the person of your dreams or the person of the hour, you are going to be exposed for who you are.

[00:28:24] 

[00:28:24] Gary: If the whole idea is that you wanna meet with somebody because you're physically attracted to them and you wanna spend, however much time you wanna spend with them, they're gonna know. why would I say I'm 35 and 75 kilos?

[00:28:39] What's the point? they're going to see that that's not the case. at some point, there's this recognition that, people are gonna see who you are anyway. And this isn't true in dating apps. It's true cvs.and so I think then when it comes to cvs, I think you have to be, 

[00:28:57] within the confines of what your particular culture requires of your cv, which is a whole other professional discussion, 

[00:29:04] I think you've got to be able to step into who you are. Because otherwise,

[00:29:13] if you don't,

[00:29:15] you just create an illusion that you have to disabuse people of later anyway. I just had a conversation with, one of our executive MBA students that I work with, who went through a whole assessment center for a new role. the student is amazing and appears to have been very successful in the assessment center.

[00:29:36] And they had to take a psychometric assessment as part of this assessment center. they were very worried about, doing this psychometric test. I'm not familiar with the particular psychometric test they were being asked to do. So I asked a group of other coaches Hey, what do you know about this?

[00:29:52] How can I help this person? All of them said the candidate needs to be honest about who they are because they don't wanna be in a position that's not a fit.

[00:30:06] yeah, they all said it differently, but they all said the exact same thing. Which was, you don't wanna go through an assessment center like that to be at the high level position that they're going for. And it appears that they got, you don't wanna go through all of that only to find out six months down the road, nine months down the road, you're in the wrong place.

[00:30:28] Yeah. Don't, do that. Don't let them do that. Don't let your client, don't let your student do that. Don't let your client do that. And I think that that's true in life. whether it's an app or a cv, I think,

[00:30:40] again, when you're dating somebody, you don't give them the book of me that's a thousand pages. But you give them the vital information and as with any vital information that you would put on a cv, you don't hide the truth 

[00:30:54] You know, if it's asking for your, marital status as some cvs still do in some countries, you put that on there. If they're asking for your gender as some cvs still do. you have to put that on there. 

[00:31:06] I think it's important to be honest and address yourself. depending on the salutation whether you're Mr or Ms, or MRS or mx, if that's what you put on your cv. And I never do, by the way.

[00:31:21] But I think you have to because. All you're doing is creating a falsehood. it's going to have to be dealt with at some point. That's a long-winded answer, but I think essentially you just have to be who you are.

[00:31:36] Jay: Yeah. maybe go beyond it as well, Uhhuh. Right? I, I think the risk of CVS and dating apps is that we play it safe. So yeah, you can put your age on there and it tells you the external stuff but doesn't tell you the internal stuff that's really important 

[00:31:54] to cut through the noise and communicate who you are, it's important to kind of share more. Sharing more is really scary. Right. Because I, think the way that we can connect with each other as human beings, is shared values. What we believe in. Yeah.

[00:32:09] Gary: Okay. Yeah. 

[00:32:10] Jay: Right. And every so often I've seen on a dating app somebody who says, I believe in this. These things are important to me. And I'm always like, That's really impressive. And where I've got to in my life now is that's how I want to connect with people.

[00:32:28] I want to understand their value system. I want to understand what's important to them. Honestly important. Like truthfully important. Sorry, I'm banging on the table there. But it's really, it can't be bullshit. I think that if I say this, then this is gonna resonate. Well, that's bullshit.

[00:32:45] that's just marketing, right? That's just marketing yourself. Yeah. what, I guess where I'm going is cutting through the noise about That's AB testing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

[00:32:53] AB testing it, 

[00:32:55] Gary: it's just that you, you test one to see how many people like it, and you test another one to see how many other people like it. Mm-hmm. And then you go with the one that's more popular. 

[00:33:03] Jay: Yeah. 

[00:33:03] Gary: it works great. It's necessary in marketing, but that's not life.

[00:33:07] Jay: so it's like, Beta testing in a way, like just testing and seeing what their response is. so I guess where I'm going with this is today how I'm feeling today. And I can only say today, tomorrow's different. Yesterday was different. Today with what I am experiencing a clarity I have, I am not prepared to waste my time.

[00:33:31] I'm not prepared to waste my time anymore on this planet. I only have however long I have and I'm not prepared to waste my time. If people don't wanna be with me, it's okay. I don't care. If a company doesn't wanna hire me, fine. I don't care if somebody in a relationship doesn't wanna be with me, I don't care.

[00:33:52] It's really okay. I have to be who I am and I have to be safe with who I'm with. Right? That's it. And if I'm not, it's okay. I will move, I will go somewhere else. I will change. I can't change my environment. I know that now it's impossible to change the environment almost. unless you are deliberately placed there as a change maker, someone wants to hire me as a change maker to change the culture of the environment, then that's different if I've got extreme sponsorship.

[00:34:25] But it's really hard to change from within. If you are the only one advocating for change, that's fucked up. I've tried that. It doesn't work. so I am not prepared to do that anymore. I'm just prepared, say, this is me, this is who I am, and I'll take the consequences. And if I get a thousand rejections, I'll get a thousand rejections.

[00:34:43] I don't care. Because I'd rather be with that one company or that one client. Or that one person. That's special in my life That goes. That's cool. I love you for who you are, or I wanna be with you for who you are. If that's the company that's the most important.

[00:35:00] That's really the most important. I don't have the time anymore. I realized it's too precious. I can't be dithering about whether somebody is gonna like me or not. It's just, yeah, 

[00:35:12] Gary: So, yeah, I mean, it absolutely, it does take what I said a few steps further.

[00:35:16] Absolutely. I mean, it is about being honest, more importantly, life is too short. too precious 

[00:35:23] to worry about making that impression, 

[00:35:25] Yeah, I mean, when it comes to finding people who you want to be with on a personal level, life is too short to ab test. I don't wanna be this scary to this person and this scary to this person and see which one gets me the hotter person or which one gets me the person I like more.

[00:35:43] I need to be who I am, and the person that's right for me is the person that lands and sticks around. That's just what's gonna happen. And that's the same with a job, or with a CV and how you present yourself It is kind of a marketing tool, your CV or your resume.

[00:36:00] it is a way of communicating who you are and It's important. I think it's really important to be conveying on your cv, what your values are, what you stand for as a person?

[00:36:13] Mm-hmm. the person you were talking about earlier and having a discussion about what matters to this person. Mm-hmm. that's so important and what I was saying, so much of coaching just comes back to really trying to get to the core of what matters to you, because without that as you said, all of the other stuff is bullshit, it just doesn't matter.

[00:36:35] What the job is, how much it pays, where it's located, who you get to work with. If it just doesn't, and again, this is also me today on Sunday, May 26th. this is how I feel today. I just don't have the energy to be somebody that I'm not. maybe tomorrow I'll have a little more energy.

[00:37:00] Maybe I'll get a good night's sleep and I'll, you know, I'll feel, I don't know, who knows? but the point is that I don't have the energy and more importantly, I don't have the will To show up as somebody that I'm not. if you have a job you have to play politics a little bit sometimes, and you wanna make sure that you don't overstep and you wanna respect boundaries, but that's also about respecting other people and it's also respecting their position.

[00:37:26] So it doesn't mean you're automatically a dick just because this is how you feel today. but it is just kind of going, yeah. this is a bridge too far for me. I'm not gonna 

[00:37:35] Jay: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:37:36] Gary: I'm not, I, you 

[00:37:37] Jay: know, and I, I want to emphasize here that we are not advocating.

[00:37:41] Gary: that it just gives somebody latitude to go out and say whatever they want to, whoever they want. that's not what we're talking about. 

[00:37:48] Jay: what we're talking about is the intrinsic core values of being a human being.

[00:37:54] Resonating with those and figuring out what's really important to you and trying to live by those, right. As much as you possibly can. But at the essence of those is respect. Yes. respect for each other as human beings. I also believe at the end of the day, everyone, intrinsically as a human being, at the core somewhere really wants to have peace, you know, at the core, right?

[00:38:23] So we don't want to create, if we are really connected with ourselves, we don't want to create disturbances unnecessarily. So I guess what I'm saying is If we're going out to kind of get something done, we're going out to basically, influence others in a particular way that's not communicating and being vulnerable.

[00:38:47] That's manipulating and that's using ego. Right. So we have to kind of separate the two. One is just allowing ourselves to be seen and allowing ourselves to be seen with, as you said, the respect, of the other person or the other situation. when I came out as non-binary at the university, I said, I'm really willing to work with you to do this the right way.

[00:39:16] You know, it wasn't like, this is what I want and this is how it wasn't like that. I said, look, I understand this is gonna take time, and I understand that people need time to adjust to this situation, but I believe that, it's really important for me and I also believe as an institution in the future it will be really important for all the students and for the faculty and the staff.

[00:39:39] So let's do this in the right way. my communication was done in a very respectful way of, they're in a different place and I'm in a different place, but we can get there. It wasn't done with a do this or else kind of attitude that's ego. it was done with a view of no, I, I just want to be seen and communicated, and I would like to do this in a way that is, respectful.

[00:40:02] For all of us. you know, my parents as well, I've told them about my name change, but they are not able to, adjust, you know, their late seventies, and very ill health and their whole life. they named me, and that's, I've got to respect that, you know, that's really important for them.

[00:40:27] I'm not gonna just power through and demand for me, it's about, this is really important for them they see me as a different person. From when I was 15 to 20 to 25, obviously with a, thread through all of it. they see me as different today and they accept me for who I am today.

[00:40:48] one of the things that's precious for them is the name, and that's okay. it still means we have to show our dignity kindness and, sensitivity It doesn't mean it's an excuse for not showing up.

[00:41:04] there can be too much. but we can show up in the right way without creating unnecessary turbulence. that goes back to being untruthful. I think it, when you overstep the mark, you've gotta question, are you being truthful or you're being untruthful, right?

[00:41:20] Why are you doing this? Are you doing this just purely for your own ego or are you doing it so that you can show yourself to others so that they know you a little better? 

[00:41:28] Gary: when you talked earlier about, this idea and something that we have talked about before a few times, this idea that it's not your job to teach anybody else, you know, it's not your job to inform anybody else about what it is to be non-binary or how you identify, or sexuality or gender or it's not your job.

[00:41:48] It's interesting, you know, tying it back to your family and the people who have difficulty recognizing things like how important it's to you that your name is, what your name is now, and I think it, just does come back to that it's about ego and it's about respect.

[00:42:05] It's not about, kowtowing to anybody. simply about saying. you meet the client where they are, certain people just won't ever get there.

[00:42:16] I, know somebody now who's, a trans woman going through the transition. I know the family well. I can't imagine the complexity in that family dynamic. I can't imagine how hard it must be for that person's parents. and step parents as well. and yet.

[00:42:40] 

[00:42:40] Gary: I of course, respect the person tremendously for really kind of just stepping into that truth and owning that truth. As difficult as I know it has been for her to do this.

[00:42:53] and I think she knows it's not her job to try and make people understand it is her job to just respect that this is how her family is going to feel about it, and this is what they're going to think. 

[00:43:06] there's something about, respecting other people, meeting them where they are not feeling that you have to push an agenda because that becomes ego. That becomes, I want to show you something, prove something to you. make sure that you understand something.

[00:43:24] Well, why do I need for you to understand something? What's so important about that? As my therapist asked me when I was talking about wanting to make somebody understand something, and the therapist said, why do they have to understand? I was like. Because they do, they were like, he's probably not good enough to answer.

[00:43:43] I loved the bit about you saying meet the person where they are. it's kind of liberating because then you also realize that we are not here to try to change people.

[00:43:59] Jay: I believe, It is our responsibility to do two things. One is. To show up as we truly are. I believe that's our responsibility and that's our own work. And I also believe our responsibility is to meet other people where they are.

[00:44:20] if we can. And I believe the more that we are truly able to show up as our true selves, the more we will be able to meet other people where they are. 

[00:44:32] Gary: I think that's really important. you cannot meet anybody where they are until you start showing up as who you are.

[00:44:45] I mean, we sort of referenced it in different ways during this conversation that it's You simply cannot,expect that people will accept you for who you are if you can't present yourself as, consistent honest and truthful.

[00:45:00] also because just on a practical level, it's. changeable. It may be different today. I mean, here we, we know we're joking about, this is how I feel today. I may not feel this way tomorrow. But that doesn't essentially change who you are.

[00:45:12] That doesn't essentially change who I am. I might look at it tomorrow and go, I don't know. Doesn't, it doesn't, if anything, it reinforces who I am, which is I don't have a hundred percent of the answers. And for you to say, this is how I feel today, maybe wasn't how I felt yesterday.

[00:45:29] It may not be how I feel next week. I think that's more authentic. That's the most authentic you can be, is to say, I don't have this a hundred percent figured out. and I'm being honest, and I talk about this in leadership all the time. Mm-hmm. I hate leaders who's asking to have all the answers all the time.

[00:45:46] I hate it because I just think. No, you don't. if you just said you didn't, you would have so much more love and respect and admiration from the people around you. If you just said, this is what I believe, but I could be wrong and maybe I am wrong, we'll find out. And if I'm wrong, I'll admit it.

[00:46:07] Jay: Yeah. That's very powerful. 

[00:46:09] Gary: you can't meet people where they are unless you are who you are because you don't have a fixed point. The whole point is you're a fixed point going to their fixed point.

[00:46:21] But if you don't even know who you are, and you may not know what their fixed point is, you can try to approximate it as best you can. But if you don't have a fixed point, you can't meet them where they are. It, 

[00:46:32] Jay: it can. So let's take this a little bit further 

[00:46:34] and I think this is a good testament to this discussion, right? You and I are both showing up, with who we are for this conversation and that allows us to. Connect and resonate with each other on this frequency where we are able to intertwine our energy and our communication in a way that hopefully is resonating externally when somebody hears it because they can feel that we are showing up in this way.

[00:47:06] Mm-hmm. we are just here, you, me, Gary J 

[00:47:11] And so just to take that a step further if we're all able to do that. We can all meet each other halfway. it starts to become a lot easier to create connections. relationships become easier. Work environments come easier.

[00:47:27] Teams become easier. Right? I mean, it's just fucking easier, right? Because nobody's trying anymore. We're just all showing up as who we are with these, beautiful values around respect and dignity.And inclusion and you know, just realizing at the end that we're all human beings and we are just trying to connect with each other, and we do it as authentically as we possibly can.

[00:47:51] Everything is just gonna start to become easier and easier and easier. 

[00:47:56] Gary: Yeah. 10000000%. I mean, this is the thing about the terms of diversity and equity, inclusion and belonging, But it is true. I think if we all just show up as who we are authentically and say, this is who I am.

[00:48:11] And I think more important to have the humility and the curiosity. I mean, I talk about this a lot too, is humility and curiosity. Particularly curiosity to say, I don't have all the answers Tell me more.

[00:48:26] if you have that it's almost impossible to not meet people where they are. that doesn't necessarily mean halfway It means where they are. Yeah. And it may mean that you go way, way, way, way, way further because they're being honest about where they are. 

[00:48:44] And where they are. They're just may not be ready to move yet. you talk about your family, they're just where they are. Hmm. Are you meeting them halfway? No. No. But are you meeting them where you need to meet them? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because where they are is where they are and where they're going to be.

[00:49:04] And that's true. the person I'm thinking of that's a trans woman going through that transition. Gonna meet her family halfway. Probably not for a long time. But out there, I know somebody else who's transman also. Both people in my extended family.

[00:49:24] they were very honest about that journey with his parents, his parents who I've known for decades and decades and decades and decades in both cases. And he said, it was not, looks great. Now, you know, he's married and the father was there at the wedding and, you know, and he's like, yeah, it looks great.

[00:49:45] Now, wasn't always that way, what a testament to everybody involved that there was a willingness on the parent's part to have the humility, to have the curiosity. Maybe they went down fighting. But at some point they said, I just don't understand.

[00:50:05] Tell me more. 

[00:50:06] Jay: Yeah. Perfect. humility, curiosity. Being prepared and being open enough. And vulnerable enough to meet people where they are which means no expectations. No imposing of our expectations on other people.

[00:50:29] Gary: Then we have a chance. Yes. Then we have a chance.

[00:50:32] Jay: ​

[00:50:36] Gary: Showing up as you are is a multi-part series. It consists of four episodes, so please make sure you check out the other ones after listening to this one. Thank you for listening to the HoCoSo conversation. 

[00:50:53] We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please do share us with your friends and community. Take a look at our previous episodes and look out for our next ones. We look forward to you joining us on this unique exploratory journey.