Showing up as you are - Part 3 - with Gary Anello

In part 3 of this special series “Showing up as you are”, recorded during 2024, with Jay Humphries and leadership expert Gary Anello; the duo discusses themes of diversity, inclusion, and leadership in a polarized world. Jay emphasizes the importance of honesty and authenticity in both personal and professional relationships. They explore the emotional challenges of attachment and expectations, the significance of creating safe spaces, and the struggles of reconciling personal identity with societal and organizational expectations. 

The episode encapsulates candid conversations about leadership, vulnerability, and the human experience. Tune in for unfiltered, genuine dialogues on leading and living with authenticity.

Read more: Lorena Wüthrich, writes The Poisonous Impact of Avoiding the Truth - Reflections on the special series "Showing up as you are"

Follow us on Instagram: @hocosoconversation and Linkedin: HoCoSo Conversation

Transcript

Showing up as you are - Part 3

[00:00:00] Jay: I am your host, Jay Humphries. Welcome to the HoCoSo Conversation.

[00:00:17] Hi, I'm Jay Humphreys and I want to welcome you to a new chapter of the HoCoSo conversation. This new chapter is not just for this podcast, but it is for me personally. This is the first time I published a podcast in over two years. And in that time a lot has changed. I came out as non-binary. I burnt out, and I've been working through depression with the support of therapy, medication, close friends and family.

[00:00:41] I've been finding my way back to what it means to show up in the world again. For years, I taught embodied and communicated leadership, always grounded in the belief that authenticity matters and that it's possible to lead with a moral compass rooted in dignity, inclusion, and what it means to be fully human.

[00:00:59] And yet, like so many of us, I had to learn what this truly means when life hits hard. This new series showing up as You Are is a conversation between myself and Gary Anello, a leadership expert, coach, and dear friend. These recordings are not interviews. They are real unfiltered conversations like the kind we'd have on a Sunday morning.

[00:01:19] You're simply invited to listen in. What we talk about is urgent, how to embrace diversity, equality, and inclusion in a world that can feel increasingly polarized. We talk about the kind of leadership that creates spaces for people to be themselves, not just at work or at home, but across every part of their lives.

[00:01:38] Because when we have to compartmentalize who we are, we start to disconnect from ourselves, from others, and from life, and that disconnection is one of the biggest contributors to stress and mental health challenges in our modern times. I also want to share something personal and radical. I believe that telling the truth, especially as a leader.

[00:01:59] Has become a radical act. We live in a culture where outcomes often prized above the reality. But I believe leadership means respecting human dignity and human life along the way, not just as a window dressing when you reach the end goal. And finally, I want to give a heartfelt thanks to Lorena Wuethrich, a recent graduate and powerful advocate who helped bring this series to life.

[00:02:24] The reflections you'll hear or read alongside these episodes are her interpretations. And her encouragement has been instrumental in getting these conversations out into the world. So whether you are here for personal insight, professional growth, or simply to hear two humans explore what it means to lead and live with authenticity.

[00:02:42] ​

[00:02:42] Thank you for joining us. Let's begin.

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[00:02:47] Jay: my thoughts on it are in terms of entitlement, let's say in this context with regards to a relationship or a future. there are so many situations I feel like that we can be in where we attach ourselves to a future. And I wouldn't say it's entitled, I'd say it's attached.

[00:03:13] Attachment is one of the things that cause us pain. As soon as we become attached to things or someone, or a lifestyle or a situation or an expectation, that's where. We have pain. I was attached to the fact that I'm very good at my job as a, head of faculty at a university of one of the top universities.

[00:03:42] I was attached to the perspective that being good at what I was doing, entitled me to a future there, I had the expectation that unless I did something drastically wrong, that I would be safe, that it would be okay, that I would stay. And it would be on my own terms, if I wanted to retire early or leave early or whatever, right?

[00:04:10] What I didn't expect was a incident regarding, let's say coming out as non-binary to become an issue. that would then unravel that kind of expectation. and I guess in a relationship the expectation of a future when we expect something or feel like we are invested in it, we've put time in it, we do feel kind of, it's 

[00:04:40] Entitled is kind of, yeah, it's,right, but it's not the reason we feel the. Pain, right? I feel like the reason we feel the pain is because of the attachment. If we weren't attached to a future outcome, if we were okay with the present, irrespective of whatever the future holds, then we in some ways release ourselves from potential pain.

[00:05:04] It doesn't mean we don't make the most of putting our time and effort into a relationship or into work or, whatever it might be, but it releases us from future pain because we realize that so many things are out of our control.

[00:05:19] I think it's really okay to be upset or angry. Regarding an expectation that didn't occur. However, what I've started to practice is not being attached to an outcome, as a consequence of my own experience, Where I was deeply upset by the end of a relationship, which I didn't see coming because I was attached to a future, I was attached to an expectation.

[00:05:45] I thought I felt safe, both in that and in the work, neither of which was the case. I'm just practicing not being attached. So, for example, this relationship, I use that word very loosely, but it is a relationship because a relationship is between two people.

[00:06:00] I wouldn't want to define what it is or isn't. we've met, we've seen each other a few times. She may be leaving. She's already said she's maybe traveling, she may be going away. She doesn't know. in the beginning I was like, well, this is super nice.

[00:06:17] Right. and there was this whole part of me that wanted some kind of certainty around the outcome, Like, are you gonna be here next week or in a month? Is it gonna be worth me putting in this effort? Is it worth us seeing each other? Is it even worth having a date if you are gonna just uptick and go for six months or a year, or disappear forever?

[00:06:38] And it was actually a nice practice for me To realize that I was being attached to future, which didn't even fucking exist. Right, right. So I started to realize how ridiculous attaching ourselves to a future is Because we really have no idea.

[00:06:56] it's our own perception expectation and creation of a reality in our own mind that we hope may manifest itself hope. And it's really hope, you know? And yes, sometimes it does. Yeah. But we've got a question whether that's just from pure luck, right? I mean, especially if given, all the events happening around the world, all the things going on in our lives, all the chaos that surrounds us, 

[00:07:25] To assume. predictability Of any given situation is kind of a bit crazy, right? If you think about it. Right. So I'm just realizing that 

[00:07:38] so it's not that I don't experience the connection with that person or feel love with that person or do my best efforts in a particular situation, but it's about really just appreciating the moment for what it is and saying, if this is all there is, this is all there is, you know? Yeah. And it's hard.

[00:08:02] It's really hard. I wouldn't say it's, easy, but it's somehow liberating at the same time, it doesn't mean that I won't feel emotions should something happen. It doesn't mean that I won't be incredibly sad or disappointed or upset or angry or frustrated or whatever. The emotions that come with the consequence of something happening, those are legitimate experiences that I need to have, it's to experience those emotions in their fullest without the attachment and expectation of the future.

[00:08:40] and it took me a while to realize that that's what caused me a lot of pain, in the past. so yeah, that's kind of my practice at the moment. I would say in more recent weeks Months. It doesn't mean it's, frivolous. It doesn't mean that it's, okay, well, I'll just see how today is, and then, you know, tomorrow I'm gonna be with somebody else and the day after I'm gonna, it's not that.

[00:09:09] Yeah. It's really not that, right? it's this kind of very delicate balance of, um, what, uh, one of,his name is Marcel. He's a zen monk. he called the holding tight and letting go at the same time. Yeah. It's like interesting. Yeah. So it's like this, right? if I do this right, right. If I hold it too tight, it takes so much effort and energy.

[00:09:34] And if it's a very thin porcelain or glass, cup, then I would potentially, if I really, really had, if it was a crack in, it would probably break. 

[00:09:43] And if I open my hands too much, it'll just drop. So it's just that balance of holding tight and letting go, which allows me to hold this cup in a way that I can sense it, I can feel it and I know it's there and I can experience it.

[00:09:56] And I can appreciate it. that's what makes it real, that sensation of both, right? It doesn't take any energy to hold. It takes enough. so yeah, it's, I just, anyway, for what it's worth, I thought I'd share that. I dunno if it's helpful. 

[00:10:11] Gary: Yeah, thank you. I mean, I've been thinking about, this feeling when I go back to Berlin so like, I went a couple of months ago and I went specifically to have a meeting with some people about some potential opportunities for work.

[00:10:24] I had sort of my head down a little more, This trip was to see an old friend who also knew my ex-husband, it was a chance to reconnect with her and experience Berlin. I mean, she'd been to Berlin before She actually, her family has a long history in Berlin.

[00:10:42] her father was a Holocaust survivor, and escaped Berlin as a little boy. 

[00:10:48] it was a different energy going there and experiencing the city she would ask me questions about, oh, have You ever been to such and such a place? And multiple times I said, no, never been.

[00:10:58] No, never been. at one point I got a little bit frustrated and I said, I lived here five and a half months. I don't really know this city well at all. it was kind of a reminder that ever since I moved to Germany in 2013, it was always, 

[00:11:14] Someday I would love to live in Berlin. And then that finally happens in 2021. That opportunity comes and you get to this place, this situation with a partner, with my husband, and you have a life that you feel like, when I say entitled, I sort of feel like in a way, 

[00:11:34] I did feel like I had kind of earned it to a certain 

[00:11:37] Extent, right? Yeah. I had been in this relationship, I had been in this marriage. we spent the time and the energy of moving and, we worked together to get to this place.

[00:11:50] And then without any consultation that just kind of got taken away, just got snatched. And so

[00:11:59] I'm not sure what it is. there's a sense of like, there were two competing feelings, right? When I moved and when I was visiting again, this last time, two years ago when I first moved to Leipzig, I remember one afternoon sending a message to a friend of mine in Los Angeles.

[00:12:15] and I was looking for apartments and I was just kind of moving in I'd found an apartment and I was about to sign the contract. I came here from Berlin to sign the contract and I remember texting a friend of mine, who lives in Los Angeles I do not want to be here.

[00:12:31] that was because it was still quite fresh. I wanted to be in Berlin. I wanted to be still in a marriage that clearly had no legs anymore. it was not even on its last legs. It was gone. and I wrote to her and I said, I feel horrible.

[00:12:43] This is miserable. I don't wanna be here. I don't wanna move here. I don't wanna have a life here. the other side of the coin really, which is I go to Berlin two weeks ago and I'm walking through the train station, still feeling like even though Leipzig is fine, it's a great city.

[00:12:59] I've adjusted, I'm happy here. This is okay, this is fine. It still isn't Berlin. And when I go to Berlin, I walk to the train station thinking I should be here and it's his fault that I'm not. And that. Deeply, deeply infuriates me. Because I feel like this happened and it wasn't in my control.

[00:13:24] And maybe it's about that attachment. but this thing happened and it absolutely was not in my control. And I tried to control it because I tried to find an apartment in Berlin. I tried to stay, I tried to save the marriage. I tried to do all these things, the gods just kept saying, Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

[00:13:42] And so there was a, point where I just said, everything that I feel like I've worked for and that I want, it's gone. and it's not my fault. It's nothing I did or didn't do really. so is that feeling cheated? Is that feeling entitled? I'm not sure. Those are the first words that come to my mind.

[00:14:02] I feel betrayed for sure. Disappointed. Yes. 

[00:14:07] Jay: I feel like it's all around the expectations that we create with each other. when you are married to someone, there is a commitment, an expectation that you are gonna build a future together.

[00:14:24] Right? Right. I mean, well, it's implied. There's, it's implied. 

[00:14:29] Gary: depending on the marriage, it's explicitly stated. 

[00:14:32] Jay: exactly. It's part of the vows somehow. 

[00:14:34] Gary: in some way or another. you say, this is it, we're it for good.

[00:14:39] We have just chosen to enter into this thing for good. Not until it becomes inconvenient or until we just don't feel like it. there's something implied in whatever, whether religious, non-religious, whatever. There's usually something implied, and there were in the vows that we did, it was not religious.

[00:14:55] this was it. I found the person I wanted to be with for my life. when somebody says, I've changed my mind, it's tough to take. 

[00:15:05] Jay: you know, feeling cheated of our future is correct.

[00:15:09] Because in some ways you've committed together to build something or do something. in the relationship I mentioned, what hurt was the promises made about the future. What was said about how,

[00:15:24] we felt Right. Right. That was incredibly special. Right, right. Exactly. and what hurt about the university was the communication around acceptance of diversity. if they had said, look, we're not diverse. We don't give a shit. Then I'd go, okay, at least I know where I stand.

[00:15:46] Maybe I'm not gonna be open so much at least I know where I am. Right? But if the communication is one way, as in we are an extremely diverse place. We accept everybody, all races or cultures or backgrounds or nationalities. Or diversities, you know, everyone's welcome. If in a relationship it's like, I love you and I see a future with you, and I want to build a future with you.

[00:16:11] Mm-hmm. If that's the communication, it's kind of becomes a promise, right? Mm-hmm. Sure. Right? Sure. And when it becomes a promise, then we set expectations. So I feel like it's around the clarity and honesty of the communication. But then I guess also we have to realize that.

[00:16:29] People don't know, or they are not in a position to really know themselves in a way that they can be truly honest, right? Mm-hmm. as I said, I'm dating someone and she's just being very honest. Like, it's up to me now how I relate to that or react to it. Yeah. Or respond to it. I could say, look, I'm sorry.

[00:16:52] That's fine. I don't want this. you go your own way. Or I say, okay, then I have to do my own, work so that I can appreciate this without, creating an expectation of a future. Right? So, but at least there's an honesty in the communication which allows me to align With a situation. So I feel like that's where the challenges is around this Authenticity requires us to really know ourselves. if you are ex-husband, I mean, you know, if not yet, but yeah. Soon as he gets around to it. Yeah, sure. But I mean, I still call my ex, we're still married as well for six and a half years, but I call her my ex-wife.

[00:17:35] Right. if he had said, look, I'm not ready for this. I'm not sure. can we just see how it goes? Can we just give it a try? Because I'm not really a hundred percent. I'm kind of almost there, but I'm not a hundred percent. 

[00:17:51] It would've been really tough. 'cause you would've questioned maybe. But at least it's more authentic. In a way, right? Yeah, sure, sure. And it allows you to kind of. readjust to thathonesty and openness so you can recalibrate where you are so that you can at least meet each other where you both are.

[00:18:09] Yeah, and I feel like it's the honesty in the relationships that's really important. And I feel like we are not honest for many reasons. Either we want to attract somebody or we don't wanna disappoint somebody. in a company setting, it's because they wanna attract people, right?

[00:18:25] They don't wanna say, we're not diverse today. Could you imagine? Even if you're not diverse, if you don't feel it yourself, But you don't wanna be put into a company that is kind of weird.

[00:18:35] maybe some companies today are very clear on their messages, right? But, most companies say they're diverse, just because they want to attract good people. sometimes in a relationship it's, you know, it's because they don't wanna lose that person.

[00:18:49] So they're not really communicating from exactly where they are. it's not like we're being dishonest when we're in a relationship like that there is an element of hope, right?

[00:18:59] There is an element of, okay, I might be feeling like this, but I'm sure I could be feeling like that, this is just me feeling, you know, this, you know? Right. I'm just feeling a bit insecure about the commitment. Yeah. Right. Yeah. soit's really hard to differentiate, you know, where we are.

[00:19:18] in terms of our relationship to another person, But I feel like the only way we can really connect is just by being open even about that, Just even if it's about saying, okay, look, I have these emotions. This is how I'm feeling. I'm feeling a little bit uncertain.

[00:19:39] I think it's about that kind of interaction and dialogue. we're afraid of exposing ourselves and opening up because it, could make us seem indecisive, 

[00:19:49] We don't know how it's gonna be perceived because we are so. Programmed as a society to be, binary. We're either committed or we're not committed. Yeah. You're either gonna do it or we're not gonna do it. Right. This against us.

[00:20:03] So you're either with this company or you're not With this company, you're either support all the values of the company or you don't support all the values of the company. Right. so, and people, of course, they say, yeah, we support all the values of the company.

[00:20:13] Right? Yeah. But they go, no, we don't really inside. They like that. Yeah. I don't. Right. But they don't communicate that. it's the same in a relationship. you don't want to be, non-binary. you want to be kind of binary in some ways because you want to, you don't want to kind of like, oh, I'm not sure.

[00:20:30] Right. I'm, all in, but there's a bit of me that doesn't feel like that, We are not experienced in having this kind of non-binary dialogue, which is okay, maybe it's not a hundred percent one way or the other. Maybe it's somewhere in between. we have to be open about what that is how we feel and be accepting of that's the way it is, just try and work together on that, not with any expectation of the outcome, but about the openness of the communication appreciate the fact that we can be open about it without it hurting us and without taking it personally.

[00:21:02] 

[00:21:02] Gary: I mean, just a couple things. when I reflect on the relationship that I had with him, there were multiple times. And, he'll probably be pissed off that I talk about. I don't give a shit. he brought it on himself, right?

[00:21:13] So, so, um, but I mean, there were multiple times when he would joke, oh, you know, you're gonna leave me someday. You're gonna leave me someday. and I said to him multiple times, I can promise you that I have no intention of leaving you and I will never have any intention of leaving you.

[00:21:34] And we had hit a rough patch a couple of years before we actually split up. he sort of implied that he felt like that was gonna be the end of our marriage. I said. why would you think that? I'm here because I want to be here and I will continue to be here because I wanna be here.

[00:21:47] he would joke, oh, You're gonna leave me. And I would say, that's never gonna happen. And then for him to flip it and be the one who did it, of course, it's classic sort of, you know, like seventies schoolyard, psychology 1 0 1, which says, you know, it's projection.

[00:22:02] Of course, he was always planning to leave because he kept saying you were gonna be the one who was gonna leave. Maybe that's the case. I don't know. but it is interesting. So, what happens in that case is that there was a certain level of expectation in a way.

[00:22:19] that was created in those conversations. there were explicit promises by me and implicit promises by him. so that becomes a very difficult thing to navigate. But, I'm stuck on this idea about, expectation and entitlement because, we know each other well enough.

[00:22:37] You can tell me to fuck off if you want, but I think about, I'm not a parent. I will not ever be a parent. But I wonder about what's the level of I mean, if your children were to just walk away. Would there be a certain amount of expectation? Or is that too complicated a question? Or would there be a sense of like, I'm your parent, I am entitled to this affection and I have done all of this for you, and now you're just walking away.

[00:23:11] But, couldn't the response simply be, maybe you just had too many expectations. I don't mean to minimize, and I also don't mean to compare what I went through to being a parent in any way. so I guess the question is where do you draw, the limit to an expectation?

[00:23:27] when should, an expectation become, entitlement or maybe, I dunno. 

[00:23:36] Jay: Wow. Okay. A lot there. I mean, again, there's a lot there. 

[00:23:40] Gary: you can tell me to go away if you want. 

[00:23:42] Jay: That's fine. No, no, Not at all. There's just, a lot there.

[00:23:44] Right. and I actually, I feel like you could answer that question yourself as well. because we've all been children and we've all grown up and we've all left the house. we've all gone through that process of leaving our parents. so on that basis, it's an interesting dynamic, isn't it?

[00:24:05] there is this natural kind of evolution of the self. Moving from teenage to adulthood. 

[00:24:14] Gary: correct. 

[00:24:14] Jay: And there's this kind of finding the way in the world and discovering, right? Sure. I mean, they have no clue what they're gonna be doing. Where, you know, I'd had no clue when I was 16, 18 where I was gonna go, who I was gonna be with, it was just all an adventure.

[00:24:27] So, I expect it will probably be the same for them. I do know that I will be in a lot of pain and suffering if I have expectations of that relationship. If I expect them to call me every week, or to want to come and see me, or to do this, or that, I know that I'll be pretty unhappy.

[00:24:48] And there are many, parents whose children have left home who are desperately unhappy. they find it very difficult to let go of the expectations they've put all this time, they've put all this effort, they've nurtured, created, invested, financially invested,they've done all this, and suddenly their children seem completely unappreciative of everything happened.

[00:25:12] Right, 

[00:25:13] Gary: right. But I'm talking about the difference between that and genuine lack of appreciation. Like if your son said, I don't want a relationship with you anymore. Mm-hmm. Which might be a deeply personal question you don't wanna get into, which I understand. but I wonder about that.

[00:25:28] is there a point at which I mean, are there things in life and it goes back to what you were saying, like when you make a promise. to a person about something as big as your respective lives together. are you entitled to feel cheated?

[00:25:45] Are you entitled to feel betrayed? 

[00:25:47] Jay: I think you're entitled to feel all the emotions that you feel, right? You're allowed to feel all of those emotions, and you should experience them and accept them.

[00:25:58] We should,look the relationship that I had, and given that I was the first relationship where I was able to experience The diversity of my energy and the diversity of who I am. And I felt very safe. she was the one that made me promise to not leave her. it said, promise me you won't leave me.

[00:26:21] And I promised. I said I won't. And then she left. but what I perceived was that she could never believe. I wouldn't leave her even though I promised and I really meant everything when I said I wouldn't leave her. But she was, I think there was a level, and if she's listening to this, she's probably gonna fucking shoot me.

[00:26:42] But, um, I, my interpretation was, we're both good 

[00:26:46] Gary: people, by the way. 

[00:26:49] Jay: My interpretation was that, she was still scared about me leaving. and in order to combat that fear, that kind of insecurity of something that she couldn't cope with, she left.

[00:27:07] that's my interpretation, obviously. Uh, every interpretation is unique, but you know, and I still, because I know her, I know the situation, the relationship, I know our interaction. there was an insecurity that I could not do anything about. So I believe I played my part.

[00:27:26] I did what I was expected to do, but also what I wanted to do. It's as much as I could possibly do. I couldn't do anymore. And I did promise, and I did believe in my promise. and I even showed that I was still there for her to say, look, I know, you've taken a step back. I'm still here.

[00:27:47] Until the point where I was like, okay, this is clear that you have to make the step. I'm here. You have to make the step. I came to terms. I did everything I could. I lived up to my own expectations. And we talk about not having expectations, but I did everything that I could that was in my control.

[00:28:08] I also felt all of those emotions as a consequence of it, which are genuine emotions. And I'm thankful, that I've experienced this kind of rainbow of emotions. And I guess it's given me a different perspective on life. so going back to your question I hope that, my relationship with my boys that it would not result in a situation where they would go, okay, fuck off, I'm not done. I'm not interested in seeing you ever again. I guess my view on. That relationship is that there is an openness, to share, and I'm just trying to create a safe space so that they know they can be who they want to be.

[00:28:51] They can share their emotions however they want to share them. there is no, consequence for those emotions. it's not like there isn't any discipline if they mess up But the environment around them is safe.

[00:29:02] Right. Therefore, all I can do is do that. They can step into that environment. They can say, I want to be part of that environment or not, but all I can do is create this safe psychological space. And look, it's really hard to create that space. It's really hard.

[00:29:20] However, I feel like that's all we can do and we have to try and make sure that space is clean, from our side. We have to make sure we also have our own boundary around that space we can't allow anybody in that space. if anybody is misbehaving or abusing that space we have to be able to say, look, that's not how it's gonna work, or I can't allow you to be in that space because I've created this space so that we can appreciate a interaction together.

[00:29:52] but the only bit I can do is create that space. And allow somebody to be part of it I can choose and allow somebody to be part of that space. but I can't, if they want to step out of that space, then, that's on them really. 

[00:30:09] Gary: And it's interesting. that brings it back to, what our previous conversations have been about authenticity and showing up as you are that really being the basis of creating that psychologically safe space. We talked before about, you know, my, having gone into interviews and making it really clear that I had a husband at the time and being questioned about that later, and my answer being, I needed to know that I was in a place where I was gonna feel safe.

[00:30:33] I needed to know that I was gonna be in a place where it was okay and that I belonged.yeah, I think there's absolutely something, to what you're saying when you were, working at the university and there was lots of lip service about being diverse and welcoming, and honoring and, believing in diversity.

[00:30:49] when push came to shove, when the rubber met the road, it was a different story. it's interesting, and when you're talking about your relationships, I'm just conflating a whole bunch of things here together, but when you were talking about your relationship and being in a position where you had to be the one who promised that you weren't leaving.

[00:31:08] And yet that was the person, the other person left. which is exactly, what happened. I think it does come down to the fact that for whatever reason, I don't think it was me, but could I have been more aware of it?

[00:31:24] I don't know, 

[00:31:25] could I have done something could I have gone further out on a limb to make it a psychologically safe space for him? given what I knew about his history, at least what he told me his history was, his ability to trust people in general was pretty limited.

[00:31:44] And so he had kind of. evolved in his life to, survive and do whatever it took. there came a point where it was too much for him. even though I would say, can we have a conversation? Can we talk about this, certain issues that were going on in our lives, 

[00:32:00] And he would just say, it has nothing to do with you. It's all me. And I'm like, okay, it doesn't matter who it is. it's just an issue that we should try and figure out. 

[00:32:10] so yeah, the sense of betrayal is definitely there, but I also think, we do our best. 

[00:32:16] you have in different situations, I have in different situations. You do your best to show up the way you are, to show up as who you are. I think the hurt comes when the response to that is, thank you for doing that, but you're not the right one.

[00:32:34] You leave yourself wide open wildly vulnerable. You say, this is who I'm, this is, I'm crazy. Imperfect, I'm whatever. and they accept it up to a point. And then there's a point at which they say they're rejected That happened with you at work, and that's happened with you in relationships and it's happened with me in relationships. it happened when I came out in 2000. It happened with a couple of friends initially. things are fine now, but there was this initial like, how, what, how can you be telling me this?

[00:33:04] How can this be the case? there's a massive risk and an incalculable value to just saying, here I am, this is me. and. I think, in different scriptures there's countless stories of people, you know, this is in no way a religious podcast, but what's interesting is that, in countless stories, spiritual leaders, at some point they kind of break and they say, okay, this is it.

[00:33:36] This is who I am. I'm a mess, and I'm ready to be, whatever I need to do. whether that's god's will imposed on them or whatever the point is. But there's a point at which they say, I have nothing to hide anymore. 

[00:33:51] there's no curtain, there's nothing. This is it. you know. it's an interesting lens maybe to look at some of those stories, but 

[00:33:59] I think there's just, something so often in spiritual traditions, and this is going down a road. I didn't think we were gonna be going down, but there's something, in spiritual traditions About humility vulnerability and total honesty.

[00:34:15] Right? total honesty. 

[00:34:18] I mean, it's in countless stories and traditions. Not just, Christian or Judeo-Christian or, Muslim traditions, Buddhist traditions, where it's not the moment of enlightenment, but there is a point at which the person who is at the center of the story says, okay, I got nothing.

[00:34:35] have nothing. this is just me. this is who I am, 

[00:34:41] this is who I am and wherever I go next is wherever I'm supposed to go next. 

[00:34:45] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:46] Gary: Maybe that's what it's mm-hmm. Right. 

[00:34:48] Jay: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. 

[00:34:49] Gary: So, and it, dovetails with what we've been talking about, this idea that, you know,

[00:34:53] like I said, there's something that's kind of incalculable in its value of putting yourself on the line and saying, I have nothing to hide. There's no man behind a curtain. This is how it is. Mm-hmm. And in a sense, the person that you're developing this relationship with now has said, here's the deal.

[00:35:15] It's up to you. you can take the deal or not. and you taking the risk at work of saying, this is who I am and take it or leave it, and they left it, my saying and you saying in previous relationships, look, I'm here, I'm in it for the long haul.

[00:35:32] I'm here for you no matter what. And at some point they say it's not enough, or they can't trust it, or for whatever reason they reject it. But that doesn't mean you stop. No, no. But that's hard. 

[00:35:48] Jay: It is hard. 

[00:35:50] Gary: It's really hard. 

[00:35:51] Jay: it's really hard, but I feel like I need to pick up on a nuance of what you says.

[00:35:56] I guess my realization or interpretation is that through my own experience here on this planet And what I know and how I am, I am able to go so far to meet somebody I can go to here and it's based on my own, limitation. 

[00:36:21] But I'm trying to be as open and as genuine and authentic as I can. I can go to here.

[00:36:28] If they can meet me there, that's fantastic. But if they can't, for whatever reason, their reasons are their reasons, and sometimes they know what those reasons are, and sometimes they dunno what those reasons are. So whether it's a company, whether it's an individual, whether it's a friendship, whatever it might be, we can either meet each other or we can't meet each other at this place where we can come together.

[00:36:55] So what I've realized is I'm not taking it personally anymore if somebody can't meet me where I am. Because I can only go that far. They can only go that far. And if there's a gap. There's a gap. Yeah, exactly. And maybe one could argue in another life, another constellation, another experience another set of situations, they would be able to meet me where I am, or I would be able to meet them where they are, maybe make even more effort and go even further.

[00:37:27] And I'd be able to meet them where they are, but I can't. If it takes so much effort to meet somebody where they are, I can't do it. It's the same in a company. If I am the one that has to go look, And they're like, well, we don't accept you. And I'm like, okay, well I'll try and I'll meet you where you are.

[00:37:42] Which is basically on this non-acceptance, it takes too much energy. I'm gonna destroy myself. So I have to also realize where I can go and the same in a relationship. I can go this far, this is who I am. I'm here for you. This is where I am,this is me. I'm putting everything on the line.

[00:38:00] This is where I am, but you have to meet me here. If you can't, then you can't. But I don't take it personally. It's not like a personal rejection. It's just that they're not capable of stepping into that space that I've created. as a leader at work, we have to do the same.

[00:38:20] Create that space and say, this is where I am as a leader. This is authentically how I can be there for you. you can step into that space if you feel you can, but if you don't want to or you don't feel that you are. Are able to, that's okay, just so you know that's the space.

[00:38:41] some leaders, their space is so closed, There's no talk There's no safe zone. Basically, the other person has to come all the way And that's unfair. As a leader, you are supposed to be setting an example, 

[00:38:52] You're supposed to be saying, I am the one that's in charge. I'm the one that's been given this responsibility. I'm the one that's creating this safe space for you all to step into. if I'm not doing that, then I'm not doing my fucking job. 

[00:39:04] And the same in a relationship.

[00:39:05] It takes somebody to lead in a relationship. It takes somebody to go, Hey, There's this space I've created, If you are both in that beautiful space where you can meet each other Exactly. Halfway, that's perfect.

[00:39:17] If you've got a dynamic where it's flowing one way to the other, you can understand where that safe space is. But it normally takes one that is more open, more comfortable with who they are, more, vulnerable, more strong in their own character, to go, this is the safe space I've created for us.

[00:39:35] Do you want to step in? If they can't step in, then that's on them. It's not a rejection of ourselves. it's an inability of them to step into the space, and we shouldn't punish them It's almost like it is what it is. it's compassion more than anything else because we've created something that we felt would be an opportunity.

[00:39:56] And they weren't able to take that opportunity. And who knows, maybe they can do that with somebody else. Maybe not. whatever this situation is, we did what we could. I feel like, our interaction, I can tell you are a very compassionate, sensitive, open person. You created that space, you created that opportunity.

[00:40:15] and that's where I feel that's all we can do as human beings. all we can do is keep practicing on ourselves when we have setbacks, to not say, I'm not gonna do it again. I'm gonna keep this space here so that I am not allowing anybody else to step into that space 

[00:40:32] Actually we're punishing ourselves and actually as a role model, and a role model is just somebody who lives their life authentically. Right? I think that's all it is. It's someone who feels something and does something and they're aligned. In a good way.

[00:40:50] I'm not talking about those instantaneous reactive feelings. Like, okay, I'm gonna go and do this because I, or impulse I'm talking about more. Yeah. Because that's, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm talking about a more connected feeling from within and creating that alignment with the outside world.

[00:41:06] Mm-hmm. Um, so. Yeah. Sorry for my rants there. 

[00:41:10] Gary: No, it was great. I was struck by your comment about, you know, that's your responsibility as a leader is to get out there and be out there. there is, an obligation as a leader

[00:41:25] to create as big a circle as possible. to create as open a space as possible. I was thinking, I was getting really uncomfortable with it, but then you finally qualified it and said, but it's a leader's response. There are too many leaders that have this really tiny circle.

[00:41:39] This little tiny, very self-protective. very. status quo. I've earned my position. And I don't want you, or these conversations, or this evolution to jeopardize that.

[00:41:55] I see it all the time. Leaders who, you know, what you were saying earlier about they can take A, B, C, and D, but not E-N-F-E-N-F is a bridge too far for them? They're not gonna do it. It is leader's responsibility, To say, yeah, okay, A through F. If that's what we're looking at, that's what we're doing.

[00:42:14] We're doing A through F, otherwise you shouldn't be there. I get as riled up as you do, if you can't do A through F and you're a leader, you shouldn't be in the fucking position of being a leader because people are gonna come into your orbit, whether you like it or not, that are A through F. 

[00:42:34] And they're not gonna function without Being able to be A through F. it's certainly happening generationally more and more and more people who are, younger than me, younger than you, in their early thirties, in their twenties, who are very open, they're very much A through F and they're fine with it.

[00:42:53] if you can't do that, It's gonna be a problem. I mean, it's gonna be a problem for you as a leader, I see it happen in organizations now where leaders have a certain perspective, and that's it.

[00:43:07] And it's not going to change. as I said, in the situation where I was, I've been asked, why did you feel it was necessary to say all of that? because I needed to know that I was in a safe space. 

[00:43:18] They understood, but I'm not sure they fully got it.

[00:43:21] I'm not sure they accepted it as an answer. But I don't think they fully grasped the importance of it, like how important it was. I don't think they fully grasped that it would have been a deal breaker. It would've if they had been visibly uncomfortable at certain things that I said.

[00:43:40] Jay: Yeah. 

[00:43:40] Gary: I think it's important, especially if we're talking about work and showing up as yourself at work and what corporate environments are like. that should be how they get to that position, not because of their technical knowledge, because generally, you know, people learn that and they acquire that, and you can get that and you can gain that.

[00:43:57] But when it comes to leading, keeping people together working together being productive happy, and satisfied with what they do, That requires that you say, I don't know. There was a great thing I saw on LinkedIn this past week, that I reposted from Adam Grant, and he was talking about leaders and being vulnerable and how it was just a little clip from a talk he gave he was talking about leaders not willing to show, what they're not good at.

[00:44:26] leaders not being willing to be open about that. 

[00:44:29] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:31] Gary: and he laughed and said, you can pretend you're good at everything and handle every question But he whispered and he said, guess what?

[00:44:37] Your team, they already know what you're bad 

[00:44:39] Jay: at. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. 

[00:44:41] Gary: and it really, hit me and I was thinking a lot about it. It's really just about that ability to say, I don't have all the answers. I don't know everything. this is what I feel strongly about, but I don't have all the answers.

[00:44:58] And maybe my mind will change. Maybe it won't, but it's not fixed. It's not set in stone. Yeah. Right. 

[00:45:07] Jay: so we also have to be a little bit careful, if I take the kind of approach of the A to F expectation of leaders.

[00:45:16] So once again, let's remove this expectation. Because I feel like it's all about showing up. 

[00:45:22] Gary: I'm skeptical, but go on. Yeah, 

[00:45:24] Jay: it's about showing up, As who you are. It's about being authentic, right? It's about communicating openly. It's about being vulnerable. It's about saying, look, yeah, I can do A to E two F, I'm, you know, it's my blind spot.

[00:45:39] I need help with this. Okay. but I want you to accept me for who I am. I'm well intentioned, as you said. I'm dynamic. I'm working on this. I'm adapting. At the moment, this is where I am. I can only go this far at this point in time. Now, obviously without specifying what that may or may not be, but I feel like once again, it's like that zone.

[00:46:02] It's not gonna be the same for every single leader. some leaders, they may be at CD, right? But to be able to communicate, where they are to themselves first and to others. rather than promise, because of a lack of vulnerability.

[00:46:20] Like, they're not, they're expected to be a F and they clearly can't be, right. Mm-hmm. That's just, as you said, they're teams. No, they're not. Anyway, their organizations know they're not. Why is everybody pretending they are. it's just a joke. It's creating additional stress and pressure and all of these other things.

[00:46:37] so on that basis, I feel like it's authentically showing up. in a relationship as well, even if you go down to a friend, any kind of relationship, if we have the expectation that somebody's gonna be a f hmm. but if somebody is saying, I'm a d. And I'm working on A ENF.

[00:46:54] as human beings, we're not perfect. So if f is the end game, let's say in this particular situation, we're always gonna be working, always gonna be trying, always gonna be trying to figure it out. And I feel like it's okay to be saying, look, we're trying to figure it out.

[00:47:11] We're trying to adapt, we're trying to learn. But obviously it depends on your value system, right? if you are saying that ENF is about your open-mindedness to diversity and you are trying to work on that and you're in a diverse environment, that's gonna be problematic.

[00:47:25] So I feel like it depends right? In terms of, the context of what, one means by that kind of zone of safety. Right? 

[00:47:35] Gary: I mean, there isn't anything I had in mind in particular about A through F, but it was just kind of like this scale that you set up 

[00:47:42] This sort of distance that you set up around you and yeah, I agree with you. I think, as I said, toward the end, it is about humility. It's about the ability to say, I don't know. I don't have answers. I don't know really.

[00:47:55] Mm-hmm. and yeah, it isn't about that. You have to be, you know, you're installed as a leader and you have to have A through think whatever that A through F is. I mean these areas where you're supposed to be skilled as a leader and there's all these different scales about you and 

[00:48:09] What is your expertise in this? What's your level of ability in this? What's your sensitivity toward that? nobody's gonna score a hundred percent. Nobody's gonna score, the best of the best all the time. 

[00:48:19] and I think the danger is when you have a leader who,

[00:48:25] as anybody in any relationship, I mean, it's a very clunky model, but if we use this A through F, if somebody says, I'm A through D, I'm not ef, live with it. That's really problematic. 

[00:48:38] Jay: That's problematic. Yeah, definitely. If, if you say, 

[00:48:40] Gary: I'm A through D, but I get the need for E and F, and so.

[00:48:46] I'm opening the gate a little bit. I wanna see That's okay. I've seen too many leaders who are too willing to say It's a very narrow little circle around them. Yeah. And they're too willing to say, well, we're not changing.

[00:49:00] And so to say, like in your case, yes, with work, we're open to diversity, we're open to, people can be who they are. Yes. they can be who they are. and then you say, well, this is who I am. And they go, but that's too far. And you're like, but you said this was a safe place for people to be who they are.

[00:49:19] Yeah. But we didn't mean that. Okay. is it possible that it could mean that? No. That's a whole different conversation, which is now the conversation. you're having or have had, But that's the place where you are now in terms of your relationship with them.

[00:49:37] You're saying, but you said all of this and they're saying, we meant a lot, but we didn't mean ENF. Why did you think we would mean ENF? because you said you did. But there was an expectation also that you have, when somebody says, we believe in diversity, that they believe in the same concept of diversity that you believe in.

[00:49:59] Jay: There's also a sense of, and I think that, we can maybe question what diversity is or isn't and alignment of diversity. I would like to address this concept of honesty. if a leader is only able to do A through D and says, this is all I'm capable of doing and communicates it, then it's like, this is as far as I can go.

[00:50:20] I can't do anymore. At least, you know where you stand. Absolutely. And you can say, all right, cheers. Thank you very much. Or I'm okay with being in this environment with that person. Absolutely. And I'm okay that they can't do it, but it's the disingenuity of people saying, I am A through F, but I'm not. 

[00:50:39] I had a relationship recently where, we just couldn't meet each other halfway. Right. it was clear, and we were both openly communicating. We can't meet each other any further. And it was a gap and we just had to go our separate ways and it's okay. yes, it was painful, but we both knew that was as far as we could go.

[00:50:59] Right? But there wasn't a promise of I am A through F and then the disappointment. it's the honesty that's really important. It's the honesty in communication. It's okay to have limitations. It's okay to not be a dynamic leader. I'm a static leader and I can only do a fine then surround yourself.

[00:51:18] I'm 

[00:51:18] Gary: okay with you doing it. Yeah. Say 

[00:51:19] Jay: surround yourself with people that are comfortable with that, but don't communicate. You're an A to F and this amazing leader, and that your company supports you on that leadership Just communicate that you can only do a Right, right. Openly.

[00:51:34] And then it's fairthis concept of fairness is just around openly communicating and being authentic. Don't be disingenuous, don't be dishonest with either yourself or with others. it's really hard because we want to please somebody, right? let's take the situation where you opened up and said, look, I am, gay and I'm on the other side of the table.

[00:51:56] Right? And let's say I am In this A zone. And I'm like, I'm thinking Jesus is gonna be really difficult in this organization. I don't know if I can do this personally, right? It's gonna be a really difficult interaction. And I say, Hey Gary, it's fine. Of course you're very welcome, right?

[00:52:16] That's super disingenuous. And it gives you a very false sense of security. Absolutely. Right. 

[00:52:23] Gary: Absolutely. And 

[00:52:24] Jay: that's wrong. because I don't wanna disappoint you. And also my company, situation is, you know, we're gonna be diverse. But if I said, Hey Gary, I'm really sorry.

[00:52:33] I'm homophobic. I can't do this. because of whatever belief system I have in front of me, it's gonna be really difficult and awkward. I'm so sorry that I can't, I can probably work on this, but it's probably gonna take me a really long time. 

[00:52:48] You'd probably go okay.

[00:52:50] Right. I mean, you'd be probably very disappointed, frustrated, Yeah. I 

[00:52:54] Gary: mean, I'd be like, my train is leaving in 10 minutes. Very nice meeting you. and that would've been the case. 

[00:52:58] Jay: Isn't that fair? That's absolutely fair. 

[00:53:00] And it's honest Rather than the opposite, which happens all the time. We're so afraid of saying the wrong thing. Disappointing the person. not being genuine because of the reaction and because of what we're expected, especially with the political correct movement today, where everybody's supposed to be this, that, and the other.

[00:53:17] We know we're not. We know they're not. And they're not openly saying anything. so They do it in another way. 'cause people are uncomfortable with diversity. They are uncomfortable with whatever's going on. And instead of coming out and saying, I'm uncomfortable, they do it in another way.

[00:53:31] Right. Right. And a disingenuous way. Right. And that's, that's what hurts. It's the same with racism and all these other things we're still facing today. It's because the rhetoric is you're not allowed to kind of say what you really feel. Right. So you create this disconnection and with relationships and in the workplace and in society, because we're not technically allowed, right?

[00:53:58] Because you can't be coming out and saying you're a bigot or whatever else. But there are many people who have very strong belief systems that are let's say, less open. they don't communicate it.

[00:54:07] They then communicate it, but say one thing and do another. And that's what's dangerous. That's what's really dangerous in our society and in our companies, in our relationships. We have to take the risk of being honest so that everybody knows where we stand and whether we want to meet them or not.

[00:54:23] Gary: I agree, and I think we've talked about this idea before, it's sort of this medical concept of informed consent. you can choose whatever you want as long as the other person gives you all the facts upfront. as when you go to the doctor and have a procedure and the doctor says this and this and this, this is what will happen.

[00:54:40] This is what you can expect, and here are the risks. Up to you. What do you wanna do? Yeah. 

[00:54:45] Jay: Yeah. 

[00:54:45] Gary: it's the same when you take a job, when you enter into a contract with anybody about anything, when you enter into a marriage, that's what should happen. this is who I am.

[00:54:55] I see that I'm a to D and I recognize that e, and F would be good, but I'm not there yet. Are you okay with that? And then it's your decision to say at some point, yeah, that's not gonna work for me. I can't do that I can't make that happen.

[00:55:10] it's okay. If that's not who you are, then that's not who you are. This is a whole other discussion about leadership leaders have to understand. they need to do that for the wellbeing of the people they're supposed to be leading.

[00:55:23] Jay: Yeah. 

[00:55:24] Gary: So if you lead somebody and you say, I'm A through F, I swear to God I am and you're not. challenge is, first of all, do they realize they're not that's another other discussion. 

[00:55:36] Jay: Um, well, that's the big question. Do you know thyself before you can know others, right?

[00:55:41] Right. I mean, it's one of the first principles, but if you don't know yourself, how can you possibly communicate this? 

[00:55:46] Gary: How can you possibly communicate it? But I would hope that if a leader gets to a certain position, that they have enough humility. I've talked about this with friends before, like what's the one thing you would look for in a leader?

[00:55:58] And it's either humility or curiosity. And it's just this idea that if the leader can come into a situation and say, just so you know, I don't have all the answers. Yeah. That sets the tone in a way that nothing else does. 

[00:56:15] If a leader comes in and acts like they know everything and they're gonna do everything, and they're gonna show everybody how everything should be done and how they're gonna make it so much better, I don't care how right you are, you don't have people behind you. You just don't have people behind you, 

[00:56:30] Jay: ​ 

[00:56:33] Showing up as you are is a multi-part series. It consists of four episodes, so please make sure you check out the other ones after listening to this one. Thank you for listening to the HoCoSo conversation. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please do share us with your friends and community. Take a look at our previous episodes and look out for our next ones. We look forward to you joining us on this unique exploratory journey.