Showing up as you are - Part 4 - with Gary Anello

In part 4 of this special series “Showing up as you are”, recorded during 2024, with Jay Humphries and leadership expert Gary Anello; Gary shares a personal story about visiting his mother and dealing with the challenges of aging parents, independence, and memory. They delve into various themes, including the significance of authentic leadership, the mindfulness approach, and the importance of allowing individuals to show up as they are in both personal and professional spaces. The episode wraps up with discussions on how to present oneself authentically in workplaces and in daily life. Tune in for unfiltered, genuine dialogues on leading and living with authenticity.

Read more: Lorena Wüthrich, writes The Poisonous Impact of Avoiding the Truth - Reflections on the special series "Showing up as you are"

Follow us on Instagram: @hocosoconversation and Linkedin: HoCoSo Conversation

Transcript

Showing up as you are - part 4

[00:00:00] Jay: I am your host, Jay Humphries. Welcome to the HoCoSo Conversation.

[00:00:17] Hi, I'm Jay Humphreys and I want to welcome you to a new chapter of the HoCoSo conversation. This new chapter is not just for this podcast, but it is for me personally. This is the first time I published a podcast in over two years. And in that time a lot has changed. I came out as non-binary. I burnt out, and I've been working through depression with the support of therapy, medication, close friends and family.

[00:00:41] I've been finding my way back to what it means to show up in the world again. For years, I taught embodied and communicated leadership, always grounded in the belief that authenticity matters and that it's possible to lead with a moral compass rooted in dignity, inclusion, and what it means to be fully human.

[00:00:59] And yet, like so many of us, I had to learn what this truly means when life hits hard. This new series showing up as You Are is a conversation between myself and Gary Anello, a leadership expert, coach, and dear friend. These recordings are not interviews. They are real unfiltered conversations like the kind we'd have on a Sunday morning.

[00:01:19] You're simply invited to listen in. What we talk about is urgent, how to embrace diversity, equality, and inclusion in a world that can feel increasingly polarized. We talk about the kind of leadership that creates spaces for people to be themselves, not just at work or at home, but across every part of their lives.

[00:01:38] Because when we have to compartmentalize who we are, we start to disconnect from ourselves, from others, and from life, and that disconnection is one of the biggest contributors to stress and mental health challenges in our modern times. I also want to share something personal and radical. I believe that telling the truth, especially as a leader.

[00:01:59] Has become a radical act. We live in a culture where outcomes often prized above the reality. But I believe leadership means respecting human dignity and human life along the way, not just as a window dressing when you reach the end goal. And finally, I want to give a heartfelt thanks to Lorena Wuethrich, a recent graduate and powerful advocate who helped bring this series to life.

[00:02:24] The reflections you'll hear or read alongside these episodes are her interpretations. And her encouragement has been instrumental in getting these conversations out into the world. So whether you are here for personal insight, professional growth, or simply to hear two humans explore what it means to lead and live with authenticity.

[00:02:42] ​

[00:02:42] Thank you for joining us. Let's begin.

[00:02:46] Jay: Hey, good morning, Gary. So where do I find you this morning? 

[00:02:49] Gary: Well, today I'm in, the town that I grew up in, the city I grew up in. And more than that, I'm in the bedroom that was mine when I was a kid. I'm visiting my mom for a couple of weeks my father passed away in 2015, and then she got another partner a year or so later.

[00:03:05] and he passed away right around Easter. she's really, dealing with a lot of his things that were left unfinished. because even though he'd been sick for a while, there were lots of things he didn't take care of that he should have. and so now she's left having to deal with it.

[00:03:20] She's also having to get to grips with does she wanna stay here? and the thing is, she does wanna stay here. she doesn't wanna move. so I'm here and my brother and I are gonna try and spend a little time with her the next couple of weeks, going through some of his stuff, but also going through some of the stuff that we all had as kids sorting through all of that and helping her decide really, does she wanna stay here?

[00:03:45] Does she not wanna stay here? She doesn't wanna move, that's for sure. Went to dinner with some friends of hers last night and she's pretty adamant she doesn't wanna leave. she's independent enough still. 

[00:03:58] She doesn't need to have somebody being with her all the time. 

[00:04:01] it's a real challenge because she's very independent minded, So it's completely understandable, but it's a matter of what it's gonna look like in a year or two years, or three years or four years, 

[00:04:14] she's not thinking like that. My brother and I are, but she's not. and it ties into what you were talking about recently about meeting people where they are I get it, I understand it. 

[00:04:25] I can see ahead, she's not thinking ahead, but that's not the issue The issue is where is she? What does she want, where's her thinking, where's her heart right now? 

[00:04:36] And that's really a tough one because I don't think she should stay here, frankly, 

[00:04:41] Much, much longer. And I don't even know if that's the case. maybe she should stay here for as long as she needs to. there's always a reality about these things that you don't really wanna look at. I've talked to different people and they talk about having to go through this as well.

[00:05:00] I'm speaking very quietly 'cause it's 6:00 AM here in Florida. I don't wanna wake her up. She's in the other room. the idea about what's best for her. More than that. There's where I think she needs to be and where she thinks she needs to be. 

[00:05:12] what's my responsibility to that? To honoring what my brother wants versus what she wants.

[00:05:20] it's a really tough call, 

[00:05:22] talking with other friends who've gone through this with, their parents or loved ones essentially combing through my childhood as I go through the next couple of weeks, 

[00:05:30] The main thing that she said she wanted to do is, there's an attic, in the house and she wants to get down from the attic and kind of go through, things like trophies that I won as a kid, plaques that 

[00:05:42] My brother won as a kid. A tricycle. a toy box with, stuff from when I was four or five years old. That's gonna be hard to go through and also not just go through, it's not gonna be hard to go through it. It's gonna be quite nostalgic and powerful to go through it.

[00:05:57] It's gonna be hard disposing of it, So what do we do with it? Obviously I don't need a tricycle, I don't need toys. 

[00:06:05] I got here Thursday. 

[00:06:06] Jay: Mm. Oh wow. Okay. And, 

[00:06:08] Gary: so yeah, we'll see. 

[00:06:12] Jay: there's so many different things you are going through there. 

[00:06:15] yeah. I mean on the one side, your mother's clearly still in a grieving period, right?

[00:06:22] Absolutely. And, the thought sometimes when going through something like that, the thought of then changing your life, right? That's a big ask of somebody to start thinking about something that is future based, when they're still going through a grieving of someone that they lost recently it's all around time and place, isn't it?

[00:06:45] I guess at the moment she's probably really glad to have you around. Yeah. I would imagine. And be there and be supportive sounds like she wants to clear some things out so she can start moving into a new mental and emotional space. before moving into a physical space.

[00:07:00] That's also an important process. clearing out and, moving on is not just physical. Moving on is Yeah. Kind of so many different facets. And, yeah. And at the same time, it sounds like through the process of her wanting to be in a new space, she's asking you to be in a new space as well by clear out your, your things right.

[00:07:20] from years ago. or at least looking at them and figuring out what you want to keep and what you don't wanna keep so that's quite interesting. 

[00:07:27] Gary: mean, there's a, there's, yeah, there's a couple things in that. on the one hand it's very much like, the Marie Kondo thing about, you take something and you appreciate it say thank you to it and let it go.

[00:07:37] there will be a lot of that. I'm gonna look at my tricycle and think, try and remember the times that I have specific memories of being on that tricycle. then let somebody else build a memory with that tricycle or with the toys, 'cause I have the memory, that's what they are now, memories.

[00:07:52] so the other piece to that is that there's this question of when you know, or when you suspect or when you feel that it's time to move on. How do you know that? do you start making that transition and then you become ready?

[00:08:07] Or do you have to become ready mentally and emotionally before you start making that transition? Do you just start doing it even if you don't feel it and eventually it catches up or becomes that? Or do you have to wait and go, okay, now I think I can do this thing I think it's somewhere in the middle.

[00:08:27] But the really big question is how do you know which it is and how do you know where it's, I think it's somewhere in between, butI think it's so easy to identify where you are in that process. Or, is it situational? like in this particular instance, should she wait until she's ready or is the act of doing it going to make her ready, 

[00:08:48] people talk about exercise, and I know, with your cold water swimming, do you just start doing it even when you don't wanna do it and that eventually has an impact? Or do you have to prepare yourself in order to do it?

[00:09:04] I think it's a little bit of both, or somewhere in the middle, but I don't know how you decide in a given moment, okay, this is where I have to be today in order to make this happen. 

[00:09:13] Hmm. 

[00:09:14] I dunno if that makes any sense at all, Sounds kind of, convoluted, but 

[00:09:17] What do you think 

[00:09:18] Jay: I think there is a spirit around attachment and non-attachment. when it comes to, memories, with people, relationships, friends, lovers, we have memories and emotions attached to them, from the past, especially if they're no longer in our life.

[00:09:37] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:38] Jay: what's quite fascinating is that those, memories can stir up emotions that feel real the moment we experience them, in the present. I think the acknowledgement is that those, memories, are in the past. I feel like that's where we sometimes can fall into a trap of attaching to the memories that are in the past and therefore the emotions that come with those memories in the past and bringing them into the future.

[00:10:08] Gary: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:09] Jay: everybody has their own grieving process letting go happens when we stop clinging to those memories and the emotional state that those memories bring in the present. We can appreciate them, but we don't allow them to basically take over, our emotional state.

[00:10:30] and at the same with objects as well, the objects They're around attachment versus non-attachment. It's the same principle. It's, as you said,you can stir up the emotion of being there, with that object. for me it's music and I still have my CD collection.

[00:10:45] if I play a cd, that stirs emotions and memories from that time when I played that cd. And it's very powerful. for some reason it's easier when we play music, to go, ah, that was then. Those emotions are from then I can honor those emotions and I can honor those memories.

[00:11:06] it feels so much easier somehow. it depends how far away it is, if it's a recent, breakup or a very painful breakup, it has much more presentemotions. But if it's, let's say if I listened to a CV from when I was at university, for example mm-hmm.

[00:11:22] Then I have very specific emotions around those times. And, those memories are stirring up certain emotions, but I can really honor the fact that they are from then. so yeah, I feel like, that is really a delicate process and it's an awareness of attachment versus non-attachment.

[00:11:41] the other aspect is, looking at. your mother's, needs regarding this whole situation going forward. And also there's your own and your brothers, and it's kind of like we have the risk or the trap of falling into, okay, this will be best for you, but actually it's kind of our needs we're addressing.

[00:12:05] I mean, my, parents are ill, and, my mom is, you know, for a very long time. She's needed care at home. My father's looking after her. Last week she had a relapse and she couldn't eat, drink, couldn't take her medication. He was very stressed and I went to visit. and you know, I asked him, I said, do you not think she's gonna be better in 

[00:12:29] if I'm honest with myself, part of that was addressing my needs for this kind of like relief of this emotional stress of worrying about them. 

[00:12:37] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:38] Jay: I was really asking that question at that time, because I was looking out for him and I was concerned about the pressure he was putting himself under.

[00:12:47] I said, look, it's gonna be much more comfortable. You can visit anytime. And he was categorically, he said, no, I don't want that. and she doesn't want that. So, but now that we're having this conversation, I realized there was a place in that conversation for me, and I had to be very careful that I wasn't imposing my own subconscious needs on him in a way.

[00:13:06] so it comes down to awareness of how we are feeling and our emotional state and needs in situations, So that we can. look at the situation for what it is and then hopefully be there. to meet the other person where they're at, releasing our own expectations.

[00:13:26] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:27] Jay: You know, letting go of our own expectations so that we can see things more clearly. 

[00:13:32] Gary: But it's interesting 'cause listening to some reflections that you just had recently about meeting people where they are and the importance of that. And sometimes you have to go a little further 

[00:13:42] it was interesting 'cause when I heard some of the reflections that you had, it was about, on the one hand, meet them where they are, and then sometimes it need to meet them more than halfway. Sometimes you just have to go further. 

[00:13:53] And the level of tolerance that people have for that. how often do you have to do that? situationally, what's the limit? when do you say, okay, I can meet you halfway. I just can't meet you more than halfway. 

[00:14:03] Now that's enough. And it was really timely because I was thinking about, you know, before we started talking today,

[00:14:11] when I get frustrated because she doesn't wanna move when I get frustrated 'cause she pushes back and says, I am fine here. I don't wanna leave this house. and my saying initially, a couple of days ago, well, This is a difficult move for all of us. there are many things that make these four walls sacred to all of us.

[00:14:32] And I said, I understand. I don't have the stake in it. You do. I didn't raise two children in this house, but I am one of the children that was raised in this house. This is the only house that I've known truly as home, for all of my almost 61 years. They moved into this house two months before I was born.

[00:14:50] This is the only place I've ever been that's been really home for me, except during college when I had my own apartment near the campus. this is the only place we lived as a family growing up and beyond. that makes it, 

[00:15:04] a huge transition for me, but it's easier for me to see the necessity and it's also doesn't impact me on a daily basis the way that it impacts her. Mm-hmm. 

[00:15:14] when I try to talk about, the importance of this. Who am I looking out for? am I really looking out for her or am I unconsciously thinking about what I want to get out of the situation?

[00:15:28] I think that's a hard one I'm probably gonna have to have a conversation with some of my family today and just say, look, I saw her in action yesterday. She doesn't wanna move. she doesn't wanna leave. we can push her in that direction, but

[00:15:40] because they live here in the same city. I was just thinking, we can push her to move. she probably wouldn't move if we pushed her, but that's gonna come at a huge cost. I'm not here to bear the brunt of that cost. They will be. And so, 

[00:15:55] I know she's not gonna be happy if she has to move, if we forced her to put the house up for sale. You can't take care of this house. It's not huge by any means. It's about 150 meters. or 1500 square feet. So 1600 square feet. 

[00:16:09] It's just mm-hmm. That, it's about having to all of the costs, all of the maintenance, all of the upkeep, sort of having to look out for herself does she think about a community? She's still kind of very independent. So do we think about a community where they make meals for her they have a concierge it's a whole community that she lives in.

[00:16:27] But who is it for? Is it for us or is it for her? I wanna say it's for her, but I don't know. I think it is largely for her, but there is a part of it that's like, will this make things easier for everybody else? And the danger of it, of course, is that there may come a point where she has to, 

[00:16:46] the practical side of things in any situation like this, the practical side is that, You don't wanna wait until you have to, because the point at which you have to, you end up living in a place that you don't wanna live in because it's the last options available.

[00:17:03] all the best places are taken because you waited too long. and now if you need care on a regular basis, or if you need to have somebody look after you, like assisted living, Those are the kinds of places that she definitely doesn't wanna be in and we don't want her in.

[00:17:19] but if she waits till she gets to that point, then that's what she's gonna have to have. so again, it's sort of like, how do you get somebody to kind of see in her situation, it's easy for us to see 2, 3, 4, 5 years down the road. how do we make that happen for 

[00:17:36] Jay: Yeah. 

[00:17:37] Gary: Her mindset.

[00:17:38] It's tough. I sort of thought it was gonna be a pretty easy process. not pleasant, but at least a pretty straightforward process. But 

[00:17:49] I don't 

[00:17:49] know. 

[00:17:50] Jay: there's a lot. I feel like, there's so much around aging. there's also the question around independence.

[00:17:58] There's dignity. choice, responsibility. as mature children. We have to be careful with those decisions that we are kind of encouraging our parents to make. And as you said, one has to think about the consequences as well.

[00:18:18] because when someone is elderly and they lose their. Choice or freedom of choice, or they start to lose their independence. The opposite of independence is dependence. And then they start to become dependent. it's really a fine line. independence keeps people relatively healthy.

[00:18:41] Freedom of choice does that as well. it's a very delicate situation. I think my observation is, once again, it's about having open conversations around options. Intentions. Mm-hmm. but without creating these expectations. feel like it goes back to that.

[00:19:02] we've had that in our previous conversations as well. I feel like it's okay to set intentions without expectations, but we mixed the two when we stayed an intention. We want it to be an expectation. but actually when we set it as an expectation, then it's like we trying to force it to happen.

[00:19:19] I was listening to Simon Sinek yesterday and, I think it ties in with this, he was saying, meet emotional with emotional.

[00:19:26] Meet rational, with rational. So when somebody's in an emotional state. Don't try and be rational with them. 

[00:19:33] Gary: No, 

[00:19:34] Jay: it doesn't resonate. It won't work. It's gonna end in conflict. you have to wait. He said, it's important to be honest and it's okay to be honest, but you have to get the timing right.

[00:19:44] you don't have to be honest in the moment. 

[00:19:47] Gary: Right. 

[00:19:47] Jay: and that was, quite a nice way of saying time can be our friend as well. and I guess in this situation, your mother's still in an emotional state, understandably. so I guess what she probably appreciates now is kind of emotional connection.

[00:20:06] And then at some point there will be the opportunity, to have a more rational connection and conversation about the future and plans. And as you said, she can't see it at the moment, right? She can't perceive the future at the moment. when you've been living in the moment, for a long period of time with a partner and just enjoying the time and enjoying the situation and then focused on that partner leaving dying, then you are very much in the space of the moment.

[00:20:35] You're not thinking about the future at all. it takes time to adjust, to thinking about the future. and I think it's also okay 'cause it sounds like she's probably Connecting with her own emotional state. sometimes we can focus on the future too much, as you were saying.

[00:20:51] But if we focus on the future too much, at the consequence of not focusing on our current emotional state based on real situations that have happened, we can actually move ourselves out of that emotional state prematurely. then we don't have the opportunity to grieve and those emotions ultimately can play havoc with us later.

[00:21:10] Right. So it's, that, acknowledgement or, allowance for that process to take place. 

[00:21:20] Gary: Yeah.

[00:21:20] 

[00:21:21] Gary: I was thinking about messaging back and forth between my brother and my sister-in-law talking about, what's the plan? What are you doing today? what is happening? so I got here on a Thursday, and we're recording this on Sunday morning.

[00:21:33] it's just two and a half days later. And yesterday I was getting messages like, what's the plan for today? And I was like, I just got here. There is no plan yet. 

[00:21:42] I almost feel like there is no plan at the moment. I just have to hear her out. again, it goes back to the beginning, like, how am I gonna know when she's ready to make a move? Will she ever, how do you, how are you gonna know? it's almost like

[00:21:56] when people talk about switching roles as you get older from being the child to the parent, and I, not having had children, but now feeling like in a way I have to think ahead for what's, you know, what is best long term for this person,

[00:22:11] but how do I do that? Because they're supposed to be an adult with agency, with dignity, with a say in their own future. Which is easier. I guess, when you're, actually the parent of a child who has not developed yet and needs guidance to flipping those roles and saying, how do I tell my parent what's best for them?

[00:22:37] How do I do that? How do I say no, you can't have that. You'll have to wait until after dinner to have that, or something like that. You know what I mean? and I think, how do I do that? she's almost 90 years old. How do I tell somebody what they need, not what they want, 

[00:22:53] Hmm.

[00:22:55] Yeah. It's, unless it's, you know, 

[00:22:56] unless it's physically gonna harm them, you sort of yank a child away from an electric socket because they're about to stick a fork in it, and you don't think about the consequences of them being upset because, it's genuinely about their immediate safety.

[00:23:09] But this isn't that. 

[00:23:11] Jay: I feel like, you were kind of answering it, at the beginning when you said, I've just arrived. I'm still getting into the space, I'm trying to just figure out what's going on. this is the reality of, needing to form that connection again in this new emotional state.

[00:23:32] also to form that relationship again, to going back to that, psychological and emotional safety, creating that space for the two of you to have open conversations and discussions without consequences. Different from what we were talking about in the work environment in terms of just showing up, creating that space without repercussion, without judgment, without action.

[00:24:01] maybe, 

[00:24:03] In terms of, creating the opportunity to form a connection again, and in order to form that connection, allowing that psychological and emotionally secure space, for her to be in and for you to be in, to have open discussions about anything.

[00:24:20] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:21] Jay: and to kind of create those bonds again in a new way post this event. you know, she now doesn't have her partner anymore, right? and that in a way is gonna form a new relationship with you and with your siblings. 

[00:24:36] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:36] Jay: You know,that space, as we talked about from the workspace is kind of like just being there, without the requirement to take action or the requirement to, there's no judgment, there's no expectation set, it's about just holding that space and allowing people to be themselves.

[00:24:54] you'll probably learn more through that process. the nuances of a solution. Will show itself to both of you. that connection is probably really important to establish again, II'm getting to this point with our society, Western societies today.

[00:25:11] we see time in linear construct, and I don't wanna be too abstract about this, but we see it as this kind of linear, high speed, constantly disappearing, must take action or else, and especially I would say, us Anglo-Saxon. sometimes delicacies of situations, 

[00:25:29] don't take kindly to this approach, the time pressure that we put ourselves under. They just have to unravel in their own time. We have to create the space I have kids and, if I wanted to learn about everything that was happening with them at the dinner table, I would be very disappointed.

[00:25:49] I know that it's gonna happen when I am, dropping them off somewhere or picking them up from something, or, just kind of loading some dishes into the dishwasher it's gonna happen at the most inopportune moments, but I just have to create the space to be with them.

[00:26:07] And stuff happens, stuff opens up, you know? nice thing is you're there physically, which makes it so much easier. 

[00:26:14] Gary: yeah, yeah. 

[00:26:15] Jay: to hold that space and, you know, if you can relax into it, you can see what happens, potentially. 

[00:26:23] Gary: Yeah, I hope so. I mean, it's interesting.

[00:26:26] Kind of a long, sort of under the same large umbrella. last year I visited, I went to Vietnam and I loved it. I absolutely fell in love with it, and my mom, I've talked with her and she knows how much I loved it and how much I'm thinking about down the road, spending more time there.

[00:26:42] In the course of showing her yesterday or the day before Friday night, the day before yesterday, how to access on her tv, which she's never been able to do. how to access YouTube and how to access Netflix, and how to, you know, how to do all of that stuff. And kind of walking her through it and having her put certain things in and search for certain things so she could get used to playing with it.

[00:27:06] I was showing her, some places I visited in Vietnam last year. when I went, it was a place I fell in love with and I thoughtI could spend more time here. and I've often thought about what resonates with me so much?

[00:27:18] there's something about it being so chaotic and free. Rule less. That really hits home for me. There's an awful lot that makes that incredibly complicated to live through on a daily But there's something about things just happening when they happen, 

[00:27:36] that's what I find kind of freeing people talk about that a lot when it comes to living in Southeast Asia, it's just a different pace. don't expect the conveniences, don't expect the linearity, don't expect things to happen when you want them to happen.

[00:27:49] And so I was showing her these videos and even, a couple of days ago when we were looking through this, I was thinking, God, how much different this must look to her. I mean, I'm showing her the neighborhood I walked through in Ho Chi Min City and seeing it through her eyes.

[00:28:10] You know, to me it's like, oh, the cool neighborhood I went through in Ho Chi Min City. But I'm trying to experience it from the world that she lives in, which is very ordered and structured and things go this way all the time. And if you go this way, then it's a huge deviation from how things are supposed to go.

[00:28:27] I was trying to kind of experience it through her eyes, and she was taken with it on the one hand, but at the same time, there's something that's so unstructured and so unpredictable about it.

[00:28:41] And I could tell that's not something she would ever wanna do. But I also have to be reminded that that's not something a lot of people wanna do. I see it, I love it, but then I watch it through her eyes and I think, oh, I can see why people would actually hate this. I can see why people would not want to do this at all.

[00:29:00] And it's a good reminder for me that, you know, the place I see as a really cool place to be and to spend time other people see as simply chaotic and frenetic and without order just an absolute circus, which it is in many ways, but for me, that's stimulating, that's exciting. That's an adventure for other people.

[00:29:27] It's a hell on earth for the life that I, had here and grew up in. just looking, I'm looking at the camera as we record this and, I see the background and all of the things are very angular and square and regular and, symmetrical nothing is like that in there.

[00:29:44] in my life in general, things tend to not be angular and square and symmetrical. it's kind of how I look at the world. It's kind of how I go through my life these days. Mm-hmm. not angular or symmetrical or ordered or predictable. And that doesn't work so well for everybody.

[00:30:04] And I have to remind myself of that, you know? Mm-hmm. And it all, ties into all this stuff that's going on. It's my expectation that people can appreciate the world that I appreciate. I get excited about it. I wanna show it to them.

[00:30:20] My intent is to show them how excited about it, but what's really going on is I expect them to like it as much as I do. I don't expect them to go, that looks horrible. Mm-hmm. And I can see on their face sometimes, like, that looks horrible. I don't wanna walk past a wet market like that with raw food just out in the, you know, I mean it, that's a really specific example, but like, 

[00:30:45] Food vlogs of people having really authentic food in a very atmosphere, less restaurant. But that atmosphere less ness is actually what is the atmosphere. I want people to see what I get excited about, but there's also the expectation they're gonna see what I see.

[00:31:04] And they don't. and how much of that resonates when it comes to work, what we expect from team members, what we expect from our bosses, what our superiors expect from us. They have an idea of how things should be and they love it they share that enthusiasm.

[00:31:19] with the stated intention of sharing the enthusiasm. But there's also an expectation that you will buy in and what happens if you don't? Does that mean you don't belong there? Or does that mean they have to respect that? You just simply don't have the level of excitement that they do.

[00:31:35] I always think that about leaders too. I feel like leaders should not expect that the people who work for them or work on their teams, or that the people they lead will have the same level of dedication and enthusiasm that they do. And it's a sign of bad leadership to assume that they will.

[00:31:53] 

[00:31:53] Your people are where they are because of what they want and where they wanna be. you are where you are because you've made certain choices and decisions. And you can't expect that of everybody else. And that's, again, just kind of goes across personal, private, professional.

[00:32:12] Like what you want is not what everybody else wants. 

[00:32:15] And what you get excited about, you can't impose on other people and expect that they're gonna be as excited as you are. But that almost feels like a personal shot if they are not on board the way you are. 

[00:32:27] Jay: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:28] Wow. I love the way our conversation is not linear. 

[00:32:33] Gary: Speaking of non-linearity. 

[00:32:34] Jay: Yeah. Right. I'm gonna kind of bring this together. my observation about what your kind of saying here in the different examples, there's the aspect of, perspective taking.

[00:32:49] our perspective and our sense of reality is not, the same at all as anybody else's. and it's really fascinating playing a video to your mother of your trip 

[00:33:03] Gary: mm-hmm. 

[00:33:05] Jay: And you are sharing your perception. You took that video for a particular reason.

[00:33:09] you want to capture that memory and also you want to capture that experience. And then you want to relay it for yourself, but also share that with somebody else so that they feel almost what you were feeling going, wow, look at that.

[00:33:21] That was amazing. Or they go, that's horrible, as you say, that's a very dirty city. 

[00:33:24] Gary: Why do you wanna live? What do you love about it? Exactly. Look at all the garbage everywhere. 

[00:33:28] Jay: Which is already a great question, by the way. 'cause then it creates a dialogue, right. because then you can start to kind of appreciate each other's perspectives. that makes it quite, fascinating. The questions themselves are very, enlightening if we don't have the expectation that the other person is gonna appreciate it the same way we do.

[00:33:48] Because as soon as we have that expectation we get frustrated. But ifwe have a non expectation, the intention is just to share our own perception of the world.

[00:33:58] Gary: Right? 

[00:33:58] Jay: Not to get anybody else to kind of match our perception of the world, then we're in a kind of a playful space. 

[00:34:05] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:05] Jay: and then, you know, taking that, I've got two incidents which I can, give some context to where I'm coming from 

[00:34:13] I was out with a friend, on a couple of nights ago we went to see, an old movie, train Spotting. I don't know if you know that movie. I don't, I don't see it as old though. 

[00:34:26] Gary: Oh yeah, that movie from the nineties 

[00:34:28] Jay: it's 20 odd years ago now.

[00:34:29] Close to 30 years ago. 

[00:34:30] Gary: it's a great 

[00:34:31] Jay: It's a great movie. I saw it because I was a student in Edinburgh at the time it came out and I was working in some of the dive bars and music scene, there was a lot going on when that movie came out for me personally.

[00:34:42] my son is now coming of age and, getting exposed to drugs and all the other stuff that teenagers get exposed to. and so my friend said, look, they're showing train spotting. Do you wanna bring him along? And I was like, that's a really good idea because it's a very hard hitting movie.

[00:34:58] it's not deliberately an anti-drug movie, but, you know. Is has that in effect as well because it's pretty brutal. the same with war films. They can be anti-war because of the brutality that was my intention, but not my expectation.

[00:35:13] My intention was to create some awareness for him. and also to, to kind of, yeah. Have a bit of a appreciation for, a past, experience, a music scene and everything else happening at that time. I went to see it in, Zurich Central Zurich a very cool, laid back alternative scene.

[00:35:30] Gary: Hmm. 

[00:35:31] Jay: but anyway, we went for a walk afterwards. my son went out with some friends and, my friend and I were walking around and she's an artist photographer it was just fascinating what she was pointing out along our walk. I could not see at all. 

[00:35:47] Gary: Interesting. 

[00:35:47] Jay: and I was pointing out things along our walk and that she could not see.

[00:35:52] Right. So for example, she was pointing out, the swan nest where the swan had left the eggs. There were five swan eggs by the river. I didn't see that. She saw that, 

[00:36:01] And then I pointed out this architectural building, which was fascinating the way it was kind of structured. And it was kind of, all no straight edges at all. And she just would've walked straight past it. For me, that was like, modern architecture for me isa little bit hit or miss, but this was a really unique building.

[00:36:17] then she found this piece of art that was moving, that she'd taken a video of, she said, sit underneath this. and then I saw the pink sunset. She didn't see that. And we just had this kind of like real appreciation of, wow, we're walking the same path through the city and we're seeing and sharing things completely different.

[00:36:33] Yeah. And it was just amazing. it was such a clear example of what you are talking about. and we talked about how different perspectives can really affect our interactions But we were in a space of completely appreciating each other's perspectives.

[00:36:51] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:51] Jay: Not that she liked the building architecturally. Right. it wasn't about you know, she was like, oh, it doesn't really do it for me, but now I see it. I didn't even see it before. You 

[00:37:02] Gary: didn't see it 

[00:37:03] Jay: Right. 

[00:37:03] But then I pointed out the garden and it was kind of a zen garden.

[00:37:06] She said, oh, I love zen gardens. there was this kind of curiosity. going back to, creating these environments at work or anywhere as a leader, we have to be, as you said, very, very careful about we have a perspective, we have a vision, we have clarity, we are able to communicate.

[00:37:29] Doesn't mean that anyone else is ever gonna see the world the way we see it. 

[00:37:33] Gary: Right. 

[00:37:33] Jay: We have to be very aware of that. That's why the clarity of the communication is so important. The non ambiguity. But then we have to let go of this expectation, everyone is showing up in their own way, with their own system, with their own experiences, with their own upbringing, with their own filters.

[00:37:56] we can't expect, all we can hope for is that we can work together, that we can appreciate the direction that we want to go into to achieve certain outcomes together. that's the benefit of working together as a collective. 

[00:38:12] Gary: Yeah. 

[00:38:12] Jay: We have to work in that way in order to achieve certain things collectively. But that's why as leaders we have to be pretty flexible about how people work. How they communicate, how they dress, how they experience, how they interact. 

[00:38:34] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:34] Jay: Going back to diversity, this is what it's all about, right?

[00:38:38] It's about our first role as leaders is to realize that people do not see the world the way that we see the world. And if we expect them to do that, as you said, We are not being effective leaders. Right. We're not being high performance leaders. We're actually just trying to mold people into our own way of doing things.

[00:38:57] Yeah. Which is, you know, that's very short-termism. 

[00:39:01] Gary: Yeah. 

[00:39:02] Jay: it will work for a period of time. Corporations and companies are full of people modeling each other. But if we really want diversity, whether it's neurodiversity, whether it's gender diversity, whether it's racial diversity, whether it's cultural diversity, we have to start from a place that everybody sees the world completely differently and it's okay.

[00:39:24] Right. Absolutely. And it's really Okay. Alright. 

[00:39:27] Gary: I think it's vital. 

[00:39:29] Jay: And it's brilliant. 

[00:39:29] Gary: think you have to, it's brilliant, but it's also vital. you have to have diverse perspectives, otherwise everybody will just go down the same. 

[00:39:37] nobody will see the swans nest and everybody will see the architecture in the building, and that's all. Yeah. 

[00:39:44] yeah. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. It's really fascinating. So, so much about expectation and when you want to lead people I mean, this is an interesting question maybe for another time, but when you're a leader, what is it that motivates you to lead people?

[00:40:00] Do you lead people because you want them to be like you? Or do you lead people? I know the answer people would give, which is, well, I have a vision for this organization and I want, instill this shared vision and ensure that we all work together toward this shared vision.

[00:40:17] But is there something on top of that that you, as a leader, you want them to honor this shared vision in the same way that you do? And they don't, and they won't, and they shouldn't. It should be this collective effort to use the diversity, use the different perspective, I mean, it's the cliche of hiring somebody who's gonna argue with you and nobody wants to do that, but everybody should do that, 

[00:40:41] it's certainly easier to have somebody who never argues with you. But you also get probably better outcomes if you have somebody who says, time out. Hang on. Why? Like, just help me understand. I'm not saying no, I'm just curious why. I would like to understand what we're doing here and why we're doing it, because I may have a question about why we're doing it, 

[00:41:03] Or I may have a question about whether it's the best way forward.

[00:41:06] But again, it's about expectation. It's about, I see it this way, I see us going in this direction. why can't you just do it my way? Why can't you just see it my way? But that's not. Everybody being on board, 

[00:41:20] Going back to authenticity, going back to belonging, that doesn't allow everybody to show up completely as who they are. It doesn't allow peopleto use the cliche, bring their whole selves to work. they don't get to be who they are fully at work. they get to be the part of themselves that you want them to be.

[00:41:39] Yeah. If you're that kind of a leader. 

[00:41:41] Jay: Yeah. and, and this, I fundamentally believe is what's causing so many of the challenges that we face today in terms of burnout stress. anxiety and performance issues and all of these kind of things. Is because we are trying to put and expect people to be shapes that fit into certain shapes.

[00:42:10] You know, it's like that toy when we were babies, with the star the cylinder and the square. Oh yeah. You had all these different shapes and you basically had to fit to fit in the right place, fit them all in. The only difference is our organizations are basically saying, they're all square, or they're all cylindrical.

[00:42:25] Right. And actually then. Okay. We'll have a star shaped one and we'll occasionally have a, you know, triangular shaped one. 'cause then we're diverse, right? Yeah. Or, or, yeah. With, we got 90% cylindrical and we've got like a couple of star shaped ones and we're diverse.

[00:42:42] Right? But what it's basically creating is a construct that doesn't allow, even those individuals that are, let's say, diverse for the, the sake of the organization, they're only still bringing part of themselves. Mm-hmm. Right? The reality is that if we want to create the organizations of tomorrow, we have to have none of those shapes defined.

[00:43:06] Yes, of course you have to have skills. you have to have certain abilities, But beyond that, you should be able to bring everything else into that environment if you want to. You should be free to be able to do so, and it should be allowed, accepted, encouraged. To create a non friction, a non-conflict because as soon as we're only bringing part of ourselves into a space and time, we're talking about being in the present.

[00:43:36] Okay, so there's a lot of companies practicing mindfulness techniques and you gotta be in the present. Right? You gotta be in the present. And it's all based around productivity. 'cause they just want you to be more productive. What they're really asking is focus harder and get the job done faster.

[00:43:51] Right? Yeah, exactly That's not mindfulness. Get better at 

[00:43:54] Gary: focusing right now. 

[00:43:55] Jay: Yeah. That's not mindfulness. Mindfulness is bringing the entirety of your being into the present with an absolute focus and attention. That's mindfulness. 

[00:44:07] Gary: Yeah. 

[00:44:07] Jay: That's not what organizations want. 

[00:44:10] Gary: it's not.

[00:44:11] Jay: They don't want a hundred percent of your being at that particular point in time they want the bit that's gonna help you perform faster, better, and create a better immediate output. And leave the rest of the stuff and all the other complexity behind, that's not mindfulness.

[00:44:27] But I believe the organizations of tomorrow and the cultures of tomorrow that are gonna be amazing and super successful are where you can bring your entire being to work. There is no conflict, no left behind. no us and them.

[00:44:43] There is no, I'm this person in that place and I'm that person in that place. And it's not about, I'm drawing a kind of line here, Right. You still have to create roles, and you still have to create expectations around what needs to be achieved and all of these kind of things.

[00:45:04] But the diversity then comes from people showing up as who they really are. And that will be beautiful, In a way, It's gonna be extremely complex, much more complex than today. But in a way, you're gonna get, the beauty of human beings interacting together in their ultimate.

[00:45:26] Way that they should be interacting together. 

[00:45:29] Gary: Yeah. 

[00:45:29] Jay: And out of that, that's why the leaders tomorrow, need to be super nuanced. They need to be very in touch with humanity. They need to understand the energy, the connection between individuals, between the collective.

[00:45:44] This is not just about a technical skill anymore. this is mindfulness, leaders of tomorrow need to exhibit this, in my view. It's really hard. It's very tiring. but at the same time, it's hugely rewarding maybe we need to change the way we work because there's gonna be so much around that, 

[00:46:03] You have to, create different structures, different. Aspects of how we come together, the way we come together, allowing people to be that way will have a massive impact on mental health. Just acceptance for who people are will have a massive impact on mental health.

[00:46:20] Gary: Yeah. I had this image as you were talking about, putting the right pieces into the right shapes and you need that to a certain extent, and I started getting this idea of extending this metaphor where you actually have an infinite number of shapes.

[00:46:33] Mm-hmm. But that doesn't help if you don't allow. The right object to go into the right opening into the right space. You can turn one on its side and it'll still go in there, but it's not the right fit. It's not the right thing. you can take a star and turn it on its side and it might go, or you can take a cylinder and turn it on its side and it might go into the star shaped opening, but it doesn't mean it's a star.

[00:47:02] It's still a cylinder that you're making a star or a square that you're making a circle or a sphere You know, that's maybe pushing it too far. But what I see often happening is people have this idea of what that board of shapes looks like, and they have a bag of.

[00:47:22] Objects that they have to put into place. speaking of, you know, games that when you were a child, it's like when you put crossword puzzles together, when you were a kid and, not crossword puzzles, but jigsaw puzzles you put these jigsaw puzzles together and the problem was you could make certain pieces fit.

[00:47:43] They didn't match. they didn't create a hole that made any sense. So you could make it fit, but in the bigger picture, when you zoom out. You get something that's not coherent.

[00:47:56] You get something that's not, understandable in any way or familiar. so I was just thinking about how, yeah, you can make certain pieces fit, but they're not where they belong. There is a place where they belong, but you're making them go somewhere else that they don't belong.

[00:48:13] Jay: Mm-hmm. 

[00:48:14] Gary: If that makes sense. 

[00:48:15] Jay: I guess I was imagining like this box with those kind of shapes that disappears completely that there are no right. No kind of like, there's just holes now and basically there's just this aspect of putting in all the different shapes.

[00:48:27] Yeah. And then filling that space in the right way, however, with all the different colors and vibrancy. The other thing is, I do have a jigsaw at home and I wish I remembered the brand name. it's an awesome jigsaw. Every single piece is unique. there's a jigsaw company in the world that basically, in every single piece, there's no two pieces alike in the jigsaw, and when you put them together, it takes a long time, as you can imagine.

[00:48:54] Gary: I can imagine. 

[00:48:55] Jay: yeah. It takes ages. Right. But they're all beautifully carved, right? They're beautifully carved and they're very intricate shapes, some of them are kind of animal shapes, and some of them are, just radical shapes. But that's a wonderfulas a metaphor as you said.

[00:49:08] Gary: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:09] Jay: that's how an organization could be built, right? Every single individual piece. Tailor made, custom made, which is what we are, then brought into that picture, that particular organization. some organizations are a little picture, some are a bigger picture.

[00:49:27] the fact that each piece is hand carved, I think it's beautiful. it's very different from the standard jigsaw where a lot of the pieces are quite similar and you're just putting together the picture. you've got the outward boundaries and then the inwards 

[00:49:39] I love that a lot of pieces look very similar, right? Yeah. but that's not who we are as human beings, that kind of standardized. But that's how we've been playing this sort of corporate game and the organizational game and the societal game for quite a long time. We've been kind of a long time building these kind of standardized jigsaw puzzles.

[00:49:55] in order to be that standardized part, we've had to basically remold ourselves into that part and then only give part of ourself, right? Mm-hmm. so we haven't been given the opportunity. so I feel like that's where we can go with this.

[00:50:11] Gary: Yeah. That's fascinating. There's a challenge. Challenge accepted. 

[00:50:16] Jay: yeah. So let's bring this together. 

[00:50:18] we were talking about, applications and apps. 

[00:50:23] So with that. Showing up as you are. 'cause I'm not sure when we're gonna do our next recording. Right. Okay. Because I've got a break now. I've got a couple of weeks and I'm going into this clinic, which I told you about, which is a 

[00:50:34] Regenerative clinic. which is well needed for the audience here. long story. 

[00:50:39] Gary: Deep breath. Deep breath. Many deep breaths. Six to eight 

[00:50:42] Jay: weeks. howeverapplications and apps we were talking about, okay, you've got these dating apps.

[00:50:50] How much of yourself do you reveal? How much do you show application forms, cvs? How much do you reveal? How much do you show? Right? I mean, if you think about a standard cv, it tells you nothing about yourself. nothing. It tells you nothing at all. Right. Doesn't tell you anything about your life story.

[00:51:07] And I 

[00:51:07] Gary: I have an interesting, experience of that in the last couple of weeks, which I'll share in a second. But anyway, continue. It's fascinating. 

[00:51:12] Jay: it's the way that we are told we have to be communicating from all these business schools and employment offices 

[00:51:20] They only wanna know this and this about you. What your job was, what your achievements were, what you, you know, your language is, it doesn't tell you anything about the individual. And you have this one little paragraph sometimes at the top where you can kind of put a little bit about yourself, 

[00:51:34] Right. Which is normally so kind of manufactured that what can you really say, It always, looks amazing. 

[00:51:40] Gary: amazing. It looks antiseptic. 

[00:51:42] Jay: Yeah. Exactly. It doesn't have any flavor in it at all. Right, But it gets through the HR department, it gets through all the scanning documents of different things.

[00:51:50] the, IT softwares a lot of it's looking for certain ticks in the boxes. and then the dating apps. it's like how much do you reveal if we wanna show up as we are, right? what should we be doing both on these dating apps?

[00:52:03] this is the first impressions. We wanna change the world, which is what we're talking about here. 

[00:52:08] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:09] Jay: What could we do just by starting from the very beginning, what could we do differently in terms of applications, CVS and dating apps?

[00:52:19] What can you and I do? Because we're, you know, frankly, I'm in a position where I can just try stuff. It's probably gonna fail. So I'm willing to take some risks. So I'm gonna experiment with whatever comes out of this conversation. All right. So my applications, my dating apps, from now on, I'm gonna start experimenting with whatever comes outta this conversation.

[00:52:37] Because if I can't practice what I am exploring here, then It's just all a waste of time. So I'm prepared to go out on a limb and take all the risk necessary to basically show up as I am on an application form and on a CV and a dating app from now on. 

[00:52:52] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[00:52:54] Jay: that's amazing.

[00:52:54] What do I do? How do I do it?

[00:52:56] What would you recommend? 

[00:52:58] Gary: What would I recommend. I would recommend that you take stock of who you are. And this goes to the, experiences that I had in the last couple of weeks that I think are kind of relevant here. Two people have reached out to me in the last two weeks and said, I need help with my cv, my resume.

[00:53:13] I'm in job transition and can you send me a proposal of what it would cost to work with you and what you can do and how it can do it, 

[00:53:21] 

[00:53:21] Great. then they were out of the blue. they were just, mm-hmm. Which, was kind of interesting and timely and, maybe there bigger forces at work.

[00:53:29] I.

[00:53:29] Jay: Absolutely there are So we'll just, okay, 

[00:53:32] Gary: alright. I'll take your word for it. we don't have the same view on that, but I think there is a certain, you know, it's a bigger force. There's an energy you put out there and it will come back to you.

[00:53:41] I've had two people reach out to me and a theme that runs through both it's like an RFP, it's just basically how can we work together. in both instances, they have really diverse backgrounds, and one just hasn't updated their CV in a very long time.

[00:53:56] The other one feels like they need to start over from scratch. But what I'm not getting, and this is also partly the way the LinkedIn proposal form is structured. What I'm not getting from them, which I replied and I said, we should at least have a conversation. Because what I think is important is what do you want next?

[00:54:17] who exactly do you wanna be in the next role? And so in both instances I've said, sure, we can work together. This is basically how it's structured. And if we do it this way, it costs this, but if we really do a deeper dive, this is what would be involved.

[00:54:32] the rationale behind it is, I will not help you create a one size fits all CV or resume because it doesn't work that way. you need to be really clear on what you want, and every resume you send out has to reflect that. and beyond that, deeper than that, every role you apply for has to reflect that.

[00:54:54] It's interesting that they come to me and say, I need help. I need to create this one thing. my response has been no, you don't want just one thing because you are not just one thing and the one thing you think you are doesn't fit every single thing you wanna apply for.

[00:55:13] And it's about, it is about tailoring, but it is about really being authentically who you are. and just because you have these skills doesn't mean you're a fit for a particular role. It's about who you are. what your values are, what you wanna do. I mean, in terms of, dating apps or job applications or CVS or resumes, how would you begin?

[00:55:35] I think you begin by really getting to grips with.

[00:55:39] Exactly what we've been talking about over these months. how do you show up as yourself? How do you be who you are? And once you understand who you are and what matters to you, and where you can say, yeah, I can accept it an organization that's like this, but I can't accept an organization that's like that.

[00:55:57] Hmm. I think that's a lot of the heavy lifting already on some level. how do you reflect that on a cv? I'm not entirely sure, but I think what you can talk about in a CV is not about, expertise

[00:56:13] you might be able to talk about Expertise that is a result of this value. And this is how I show it, This is how I demonstrate this, I have done this in this company because I value this and this is how it's worked. This is how it's happened. or this is what I've done to demonstrate it.

[00:56:29] resume writers will talk about, you know, I did this, which resulted in this, and so the company was able to blah, blah, blah. And it's about showing your value to the company. And I think you do that with who you are as a person too. I did this because this is what matters to me.

[00:56:45] yeah. and the 

[00:56:46] metrics that I put out there are based on What I value as a person. 

[00:56:52] Jay: As a human being. 

[00:56:54] Gary: As a human being. 

[00:56:54] But I think you have to explore that when you're creating a cv, when you wanna present yourself, 

[00:57:01] You have to look at it from that point of view. because otherwise, you know, you're the same star that goes into the star hole in the box that everybody gets thrown into. You just become another star or circle or cylinder. Or square or block. 

[00:57:15] Jay: Exactly. And then that's when the contradiction and the conflict starts, right?

[00:57:21] Yeah. Because the energy is different. The expectation of, oh, they've accepted me, therefore they must be able to accept me for who I am. Well, no, 

[00:57:30] Gary: no, they've 

[00:57:30] Jay: accepted you because you can do a certain job. Right. Period. They haven't accepted you for who you are. 

[00:57:36] Gary: I value when an organization says, I wanna know what you can do in this job.

[00:57:41] Yeah, of course. I get it. Like you said, there needs to be structured, there needs to be skills, there needs to be roles established. 

[00:57:47] Jay: Yeah. but 

[00:57:48] Gary: You're not just your role. 

[00:57:50] Jay: Exactly. And that's a given. I love this idea of basically values-based communication.

[00:57:56] That's what we're talking about here. So yes, it's achievements through values or even making sure that the values are explicitly communicated. What is important, because the companies themselves, they communicate their values all the time. They do all of their mission statements and all of their corporate communications.

[00:58:17] Many of them, yeah. Communicate. We value, integrity, honesty, truthfulness. All of these kind of things, right. 

[00:58:23] Gary: They say it really easily. 

[00:58:25] Jay: They say it very easily, but there's a big difference between saying it and being it. When you are communicating and showing up as you are through your communications, you are testing their value system because the person reviewing it will go, wow, this is just all nonsense.

[00:58:43] I don't want this person on my team. Even if you've matched the values of what they're communicating as a company and you've resonated it because those values are really important to me, but the person who's hiring may not believe in the values of the company, and maybe the company values are just there because they have to be.

[00:59:01] And the culture's very different, but it's better to find out at the very early stages, so that you can find the right fit. Now that obviously a lot of people listen to this and saying, well, that's just gonna mean I'm gonna not, it's gonna take me even longer to find a job. it may well do, but you've gotta make a choice.

[00:59:18] And it's a conscious choice about how much you wanna communicate. of yourself upfront, so that you can find the right organization the right people to work with, and the right team to be with the consequences. If you don't, could be affecting your health over the long term and the short term.

[00:59:38] So if you want to be able to perform to the fullest of your abilities. We know from all of the research, the way that we can perform to the best of our abilities is to be our absolute selves. The more free we are to be our absolute selves, the higher performance we can achieve.

[00:59:57] so

[00:59:58] yeah, it's a choice. It's a real choice. 

[01:00:01] Gary: it's a choice. And I think you can make the choice it's a perfectly valid choice to say, I'm not going to reveal completely who I am. 

[01:00:09] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[01:00:11] That's fine. But also recognize that you're in a place where there is a cost for that.

[01:00:17] Maybe not tomorrow. Maybe not in six months, maybe not even a year. But if you're not inclined to change your job after a couple of years because you feel unseen unvalued, that who you are, not what you do, doesn't matter. Then do it. 

[01:00:34] I wouldn't begrudge anybody doing that. 

[01:00:37] Jay: no, no. 

[01:00:37] Gary: I mean, as a career coach, as a leadership coach, I would never begrudge anybody saying, this is the decision I'm making. Okay. As long as you're, clear. What's your level of tolerance on this?

[01:00:46] what's okay for you? It's different for different people. Some people are like, fine, who I am stays out of work anyway. I don't care. fine. Go for it. 

[01:00:56] Jay: Yeah. 

[01:00:56] Gary: But if being who you are, and I think more and more and more and more people are not wanting to accept that who they are is not accepted at work either.

[01:01:06] Mm-hmm. or is just simply not accepted at work is not a tolerable situation. And so I think more and more people are saying, yeah, I don't wanna work at a place where I can't simply be who I am. I've told the story about, bringing up my now ex-husband in an interview.

[01:01:21] Because I thought if they flinch when I say that, I know this isn't a place I wanna be. I'm not willing to, hide that now. 

[01:01:29] Jay: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[01:01:31] Gary: that's a bridge too far for me.

[01:01:33] I'm not gonna do it. but if that's what you choose, that's what you choose. and financially, some people feel like I can't afford financially supporting a family. I'm got whatever I have to make a choice.

[01:01:45] Mm-hmm. Okay. 

[01:01:47] But 

[01:01:47] Jay: there's a cost. And I feel like all we're saying is go in with your eyes wide open. 

[01:01:52] Gary: Absolutely. Go in 

[01:01:53] Jay: with your eyes wide. That's all it is. Just, you know, and once again, yes, I'm not in favor of creating expectations because whatever expectations we will create, 

[01:02:03] don't set expectations. All you can do is set intention. Your intention is, and be clear. This is my intention. This is what I would like to happen. And if they say, that's great, that's fine. Then there's a match. 

[01:02:16] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[01:02:16] Jay: And it's very similar to the dating apps. 

[01:02:18] the descriptions on the dating apps are, I play tennis, I go rock climbing I swim and I like fine wine. You can connect on that level, right? You might like tennis as well, that's great, It's a great level to connect 

[01:02:31] but you can also be sharing more about who you are as a person, your values, what's important to you. How you see life, what resonates with you. That allows for people to find you in a different way. And arguably a deeper way that is gonna be easier to connect, 

[01:02:50] And it's the same I think we're saying it's, in theory, the same. In the work environment. it requires the leaders of tomorrow to also be able to show up like this. Right. So the recruiters, the leaders, you know. But I truly believe this is a massive paradigm shift.

[01:03:06] We are seeing, a massive shift in society. We're seeing a massive shift in humanity. The current structures are not working anymore in politics, in society, in government, in companies. They're not working anymore. And so the paradigm shift we have to make is it's okay to be who you are, right?

[01:03:28] We're humans. We're here together. It's okay to be who you are. I accept you for who you are as a fellow human being. Let's start from there and we can start rebuilding a different paradigm. it's not gonna be easy, but You can start one person at a time, right?

[01:03:43] 

[01:03:43] Gary: Yeah. and we're all one person at a time and, collectively that becomes an amazing jigsaw puzzle that is beautiful and unique but it's all one piece at a time. my cousin was really just sort of in this loop of not being happy and feeling outta place and it just wasn't, things were not going well and there was always something wrong with the world around them, and they just couldn't find their place.

[01:04:09] And assigned male at birth is now transitioning and watching her on Facebook. Blossom. I've never seen anybody blossom in A six month period. She's now so happy. She's, maybe overdoing it a little because, it's just endless posts about, you know, after the first time in my life, I feel like I am who I am and, 

[01:04:33] and just the way that she, like on Facebook and just the way she's identifying on Instagram and the things that she's posting on Instagram.

[01:04:39] I just think amazing. she posts about how a year ago she couldn't have imagined being as happy as she is now. 

[01:04:49] Living the life that she's living now and never dreamed that life would get better like this or get this much better. 

[01:04:57] I can't imagine how challenging that must be to her. Not so much to her mother, but to her quite conservative father. I think quite conservative. I can't imagine how complicated that must be for a parent who just doesn't understand anything like that, who just doesn't have experience of that.

[01:05:21] But she's so happy, you know? And she's doing what she wants to do in terms of work she's a musician and she's performing and singing, and she's posting lots of stuff about her singing and performing 

[01:05:34] it's almost, a cliche watching her become who she's becoming because the difference is so stark. I can only assume it's authentic. I'm not in any place to say it is or, or isn't, or is gonna be lasting or isn't lasting. I don't know.

[01:05:49] What matters is that watching her be happier than I've seen her in years. That's what matters. To me. when I see it. I think we're all sort of slowly moving in that direction. I think the pandemic had a lot to do with it. I think it forced a lot of people to just kind of take stock and go, do I really want this?

[01:06:11] is this who I am? Is this where I wanna be? This could happen again. certainly the way politics are in Europe and the United States and a whole lot of particularly young people going, this is the world I wanna live in. I don't think it is, 

[01:06:25] Jay: I feel like it's a beautiful story you were sharing, I feel like what resonated with me was this, you weren't sure how her father is gonna understand, and I think it's an interesting word and it's not about understanding. 

[01:06:40] Gary: No, no. We've talked about this before.

[01:06:42] That's right. I didn't pick up on that when I said it, but you're absolutely right. 

[01:06:44] Jay: Yeah. It's about acceptance and accepting who we are without the expectation of understanding And that then becomes a curiosity. If we start, I'll maybe just kind of do a little wrap up here.

[01:07:00] Okay. I'm looking at the time. 

[01:07:02] Gary: Love these conversations. 

[01:07:03] Jay: Yeah, me too. I'm gonna start from the premise that, we're all somehow connected. Humanity's all somehow connected with each other. And I guess evolution had a choice at some point, is the way that I'm kind of seeing things. 

[01:07:20] Gary: Mm-hmm.

[01:07:21] Jay: Evolution had a choice. We could have all evolved to look the same. 

[01:07:24] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:27] Jay: we're one species. We could have all evolved to look the same, but thank goodness we didn't. We all evolved to look different from each other. 

[01:07:37] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:38] Jay: And the way I interpret that is, at our essence, we're all the same.

[01:07:44] We all come from the same place. We're all connected, we're all humans. 

[01:07:48] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[01:07:49] Jay: But we can then ask a question to each other. We can say, hello fellow human, how are you experiencing this life that you've been given?

[01:07:59] And that curiosity appreciating that we are completely different from each other allows us to experience a much richer and more fulfilling life because then we have multiple perspectives, endless perspectives on life. It just makes it much more beautiful and richer, and I feel like that's the world that we should be looking to live in.

[01:08:23] 

[01:08:23] Gary: Yeah. I love the greeting. Hello fellow human. I think that's great. I loved it. But I think you're right. I think it's, you know, when you're talking about evolution and evolution could have gone in the direction where we all look the same, but in many countless cases.

[01:08:42] it's not about whether you look the same as creatures have evolved, even creatures that to us look exactly the same. recognize each other as unique. They recognize each other as both similar and different.

[01:08:56] I'm always amazed that dogs respond to humans a certain way, but they respond to other dogs in a completely unique way. they look at, like you said, hello fellow human. dogs, will look at other dogs and go, oh, another one of me. But I don't even know what I am, but I just know that that's another one of me.

[01:09:14] Yeah. 

[01:09:15] It's true. 

[01:09:16] And they can look exactly the same. And you have dogs in litters that look exactly the same. But they all know that they're not the same. Whether it's a smell, who knows what, I guess a smell or something about something that comes off of them that makes them go, okay.

[01:09:29] that thing like me is not like this one over here that's like me. Mm-hmm. I know they're two separate things and I know they're also both not me. Mm-hmm.

[01:09:40] I just think it is fascinating. I've always been amazed, particularly by dogs that look at humans and they have great relationships to humans and then they see another dog and the responses another level. Yeah. They just kind of go, oh, wow. And they don't, how do they know?

[01:09:55] How do they know that they're what they are, but obviously they do. And that I'm not a veterinarian, I'm not a scientist, but I just have always found that fascinating just from a behavioral standpoint. Like they see something. Another thing like them and go, huh, we're connected in a way that I'm not connected to that thing over there that has me on the leash and feeds me every day.

[01:10:19] Jay: And I think there's a nice kind of appreciation about that just appreciating that we're all here 

[01:10:25] when we address each other as a human, we're creating this equal. We are all here sharing this planet together. Suddenly we're all here together, we're all equal irrespective of this and that and the other, and everything else kind of disappears. and then it just becomes a lot more curious.

[01:10:44] I do feel, without sounding arrogant, I feel like we're talking about things that really matter to mm-hmm.

[01:10:49] Gary: Organizations and to people for people to

[01:10:51] make sure that what they're doing has value. and that they individually have value and that they take that value into what they do on a daily basis. They're not separate. And the more you try to make them separate, I think that's historically where we've been and people just don't want that anymore.

[01:11:10] 

[01:11:10] Jay: And I think, my intuition is through this process of allowing people to show up as they are through their values, intrinsic aspects of their humanity, that they will then be able to find greater meaning and purpose in their overall lives. 

[01:11:30] Gary: Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:30] Jay: And maybe through the work as well.

[01:11:32] ultimately everyone's gonna benefit. if we can find more meaning and purpose through the work that we're doing and spending most of our time doing, everyone is gonna benefit organizations, teams, us families, friends, society. we've set the standard.

[01:11:52] We set that bar. 

[01:11:53] Gary: I hope everybody gets us. 'cause you know we have it right. We have it figured out. 

[01:11:58] Jay: Okay. You go. 

[01:11:58] Gary: if you're listening, believe us. 

[01:12:02] Jay: Or at least give yourself 

[01:12:04] Gary: no. If you're listening, don't just believe us. Go out and test it yourself.

[01:12:07] give it a shot. This is exactly, exactly. Yeah. 

[01:12:11] 

[01:12:15] Showing up as you are is a multi-part series. It consists of four episodes, so please make sure you check out the other ones after listening to this one. Thank you for listening to the HoCoSo conversation. We hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please do share us with your friends and community. Take a look at our previous episodes and look out for our next ones. We look forward to you joining us on this unique exploratory journey.