Two IPs In A Pod
Brilliant inventions, fresh product designs, iconic brand names and artistic creativity are not only the building blocks of successful business - they deliver a better world for us all. But these valuable forms of intellectual property must be protected in order to flourish. We are the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys - the UK's largest intellectual property organisation. Our hosts Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts chat with entrepreneurs, creatives, patent attorneys and the occasional judge about how patents, trade marks, designs and copyright can improve our lives and solve problems for humanity.
Two IPs In A Pod
INTA San Diego Special with... Andre Andrade and Emma Browning from RWS
The upcoming INTA 2026 in London has us dreaming of pub quizzes, battle of the bands, and podcasting from double-decker buses, but before that excitement, we're diving into the world of intellectual property services with Andre Andrade and Emma Browning from RWS.
These fascinating guests share remarkably similar stories of finding their way into IP through language skills, Andre as a Portuguese, Spanish, English, and French speaker who began as a trademark watcher, and Emma with her French and Italian background starting as a project manager. What's striking is how both have fallen in love with the IP industry, unable now to imagine working in any other field.
We've got some news, haven't we? Gwilym, do you want to break the news? Can I break the news? You can break the news. Go on. Are you ready? Can I do a drumroll? That's awful. Where's the drum? I need a new drum. I thought you were a musician.
Speaker 2:It's a table Inter 2026 is going to be in London.
Speaker 1:How amazing's that? Yeah, well, it means we don happy not to fly. My jet lag is astonishing. What any plans? Are there any things that we should?
Speaker 2:do to come on.
Speaker 1:We know we've been brainstorming we've been having a little thing, haven't we? What, what, what?
Speaker 2:we've been thinking about everything we're about to say we are committed to happening next year exactly whatever we everything, yeah. Battle of the bands yeah, it's gonna happen. Is it because?
Speaker 1:inter likes its bands. There's the opposition, isn't there. So what? What we're thinking of is something, maybe on a different evening, when we get four or five IP bands together, yeah, and they have a war Indeed, yeah.
Speaker 2:Indeed, and then I think, yours, one, two, three, yeah.
Speaker 1:Pub quiz. We've got to do a traditional British pub quiz, haven't we? Yeah, nice big pub somewhere. Get a few Inter teams up ourselves. An ip quiz master. It's a big pub to take a 10 000 person quiz.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that might be a bit ambitious, mate. That's fine a lot of prizes as well but we're working. What else do we talk about? Oh yeah, obviously gonna actually be podcasting again. Yeah, um, we can. We can maybe set the agenda for the podcasting space. We're in a beautiful booth this time, but we've been talking about sofas minibars. Yeah, opinions getting really excited about some of this. It it's going to look like Graham Norton meets Def Leppard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so treat our guests in the way that they should be treated for appearing on such a prestigious podcast, and I think we should hire a London bus and podcast from a bus, podcast from a bus, podcast from a bus Dressed as beef eaters. Yes, this is so cool.
Speaker 2:We're absolutely committed to this.
Speaker 1:Bring it on.
Speaker 3:Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 2:Hi Lee how you going Enjoying America Very much. So yeah, Second time here. Learning experience, isn't it? It is very much.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, yeah. What is half and half? Oh, that's the funny milky thing, isn't it? It's a little pot. What is it? I don't really know. All I know is that if someone makes you a drink with it, it doesn't taste very good.
Speaker 2:It kind of swirls around on the top, it splits up and everything, doesn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 1:It's more a story about when we were in Atlanta last year, because my lovely bar person in the hotel I was staying at, who told me his name was Bernard but I would obviously call him Bernard yes, indeed, and he loved that made me an Irish coffee with it and it was quite possibly the worst trip I've ever had in my life. It was maybe four or five shots of espresso and then that stuff just poured in as well, about a half and half.
Speaker 2:I do think, though, that I sound very quaint when I say it. I'm sure Americans like us saying half and half, because I don't think that's how they say it here.
Speaker 3:I don't do accents.
Speaker 1:I'm not, I'm stopping you cut accents.
Speaker 2:Horrific attempt at American accent because I've also written down my notes for Bantz small dodgy sausage. Tell us about that oh, it's just.
Speaker 1:It's just the breakfast at our hotel. It's a full American breakfast, which is bacon that's been incinerated, right, these funny sort of half-sized sausages that seem to not taste like meat, and rock-solid scrambled egg. That's it, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:I've done quite well with the food here. Yeah, I've been having avocado, avocado toast, toast. It's difficult not to get a breakfast with eggs. Anyone notice? Everything's got an egg or two and you're only supposed to eat two eggs a week, why love of chickens? Okay, don't know, don't know.
Speaker 1:That's why I read that song, yeah I thought there was some health reasons for that yeah it might be. Yeah, so podcasting there, some exciting guests on next, but I want to carry on the bants by way of introduction. Oh, you're bants now yeah, yeah, yeah so, uh, we were doing a little bit of planning yesterday about the podcast series. Yes, and I happened to say to you oh, on the plane on the way over, I um, I saw andre and you said to me andre, who's andre? Andre, the giant, andre, who's andre?
Speaker 2:you said I saw andre the, and I interrupted you at that moment, thinking it's gotta be giant right.
Speaker 4:And then and then andre, the guy from rws yeah, yeah and then, I explained it, it's andre from
Speaker 2:rws.
Speaker 1:And then about 20 minutes later I think it was you were explaining where you were. I'm going to dinner with him, you're going to dinner with Andre. So how did you not know it was one and the same person? You were lagged. We're coming on to jet lag. Yeah, you were lagged. We've got some Andrade. Is that the right Say it for me Andre.
Speaker 4:So it's Andre, andrade, Okay.
Speaker 1:But Andre.
Speaker 4:Andrade is just as acceptable. It's as close as I'm going to get with my tongue, okay.
Speaker 1:And Emma Browning. I've probably got that right, emma, haven't I, you have? Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. So welcome both to the podcast, thank you. Thank you, you're here Talk to us all about who you are and what you do, but do you want to do your jet lag bit first?
Speaker 3:Yeah, what's this?
Speaker 2:jet lag app.
Speaker 3:So my brother recently went travelling and downloaded an app because he was going to Australia, called Time Shifter, and I've been telling everybody about it.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 3:So you put in your flights and where you're going, and then it will develop a plan for when you should get bright light, when you should wear sunglasses outside, when you should wear sunglasses outside, when you should drink caffeine and when you should sleep in order to beat jet lag. And it worked. It worked.
Speaker 2:It worked. Wow, I just sleep is what I do. Well, that's what you'll tell me. Well, I don't sleep on the plane, so that's the issue.
Speaker 3:When it tells me to sleep for 10 hours. I'm not going to sleep. That's the tricky bit, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 2:Because I got advised on jet lag once by a London taxi driver who said it's all about getting sunshine on the back of your knees, apparently so.
Speaker 3:I thought it was in your eyes. I know you'd think, wouldn't you, but I've just been lying in the pavement.
Speaker 2:Wearing shorts.
Speaker 1:Oh, that was you, wasn't it? Laughter, I just stepped over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everyone did, everyone did. I got some money, though it wasn't all bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so welcome both to the podcast. Who wants to start? Tell us who you are and tell us your story.
Speaker 4:So we'll do the opposite of being a gentleman and I'll start. So. My name's Andre, so I'm actually Portuguese and British, so I've been living in five countries, 45 next month and I work in translation and IP services. I'm actually a translator. It's always very difficult to meet law firm patent attorneys because I am not an attorney, I'm not an agent, I am a translator. So I was sent into the IP industry through working in law firms from a commercial point of view and also working in service providers for nearly 15 years. And I found my calling actually because I didn't even know what a trademark was when I started as a trademark watcher 15 years ago and I cannot imagine not working in IP now I know the feeling.
Speaker 1:My story is about 13 years old and it's a similar story. I can't imagine not being around now.
Speaker 4:And then when people say, oh, what sector do you work? I was like every sector, it's in everything that you never. Oh, but the automotive sector is ending. I was like, yeah, but there's all the other sectors that IP is involved.
Speaker 1:Did you come in because you were a translator, was translating something that you were already?
Speaker 4:doing, yeah, so I was sold the dream that if you speak languages, your money is going to be worth your weight in gold Right and once you graduate as a translator in 2009,. Globalization has hit everywhere and your languages are not that obscure. I speak Portuguese, spanish, english and French, and there was a lot of competition and a lot of people doing a lot better than I do, um, so I couldn't find a job. I went back to catering. I worked in catering for 10 years, uh, I went back to catering and then I found a job as a translator, trademark watcher, well, and I was like a watcher what is a watcher? I'm gonna? I'm gonna watch what? And so I went in with an open mind and I didn't realize I was jumping in.
Speaker 4:Sounds a bit sinister, doesn't it? Well, at least like a bit pervy. But, um, I was going into. I was going into a company that had such a rich history, um, so it doesn't exist anymore. That's probably as common with some of these companies. So the company was called trademarks directory Service. It was actually founded by Wild Boar Gibbons, who also don't exist anymore. I remember TMDS and they had this history that in 1941, they started a watching service, a worldwide watching service to help Scotch Whiskey manage their brands around the world, and I was fascinated by that and that's where it started.
Speaker 4:That's where it started.
Speaker 1:During a a war. There was a war going on. Little brief diversion just to bring Gwilym in. It must be nice to have two Spanish speakers on the podcast yeah, I'm getting there.
Speaker 2:I'm getting there. You know who we should bring in our other guest.
Speaker 1:Oh sorry, emma, it's alright, I just wanted to bring Willem in. He's a fledgling Spanish speaker. Yeah, it's not going well.
Speaker 3:So I'm Emma Browning. I'm a key account manager at RWFs and I kind of got into this role through my languages. So I studied French and Italian at university, love being around different cultures and different languages and I wanted to be around them. I didn't necessarily need to use them in my day-to-day, so I joined as a project manager so I would manage the projects that we would handle and then through that because I again with my languages and communication, I love meeting people and getting into client relations, so I moved across to sort of get into that role and again, like Andre, I'm right where I need to be. I love IP.
Speaker 3:I think, there's so much that is going on in the world that is affected by IP and it's exciting. And then all of the challenges that different corporates or law firms have is really fascinating to try and see how different ones develop strategy to face the challenges that are in the world today.
Speaker 1:So should we start off with why you guys are at INTA. So what's it all about for you being here?
Speaker 4:So this is my. I was doing the math the other day, so I started INTA in Orlando in 2016, but I only have six inters under my belt because we went through the COVID period and obviously there was a big lag there, but for me it's always about three things, meaning making new relationships, strengthening the existing ones, and one that sometimes gets lost and maybe for non-US attendees doesn't make a lot of sense, is about the learning.
Speaker 4:So, every time we have someone new coming in from whatever company I'm working at, I always recommend in your schedule have a look at the plenary sessions, have a look at the talks, go in there, listen to what they're saying. It's a good way for you to expand your knowledge about other things, and so I think this is a lot about learning and meeting and keeping your relationships.
Speaker 2:And you've got a nice collection of uh ribbons on your. I love the.
Speaker 3:Remember last year we collected as many ribbons as we could yeah, we will do a little bit, yeah, so I like your ribbons here, but yeah table.
Speaker 2:Table topic uh meet moderator. What was?
Speaker 4:your table topic. So I had one yesterday and I have one few hours from now, but yesterday was ribbon twice then. Well, yeah, I didn't want to like overshadow anything, so the typical topic was really interesting. It's about how in-house patent attorneys or law firm patent attorneys are utilizing ai to modernize their workflows, so it's really really good we had a good turnout. That was the the full typical topic and we had a very long discussion for two hours about everything that everyone is doing, what kind of things that they need to be worried about. It's not just about picking the the most uh, easy and cheap option and train your people, your team, to to use it correctly.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting, but um yeah, and then the other one I was supporting the women Women's Leadership Initiative.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think that's really important and we have at RWS a significant increase in team members that are in leadership positions that are women, and RWS obviously supports the diversity D-E-I, exclusivity, equity, equity, equity.
Speaker 1:Or equality, I hear both. Actually they're not interchangeable as well. No, you've told me that they do tend to be interchangeable.
Speaker 2:It's something like looking over a fence, wasn't it?
Speaker 1:That's the exact story.
Speaker 2:There's something about fences in that. Have you been to Inter before?
Speaker 3:No, this is my first time.
Speaker 2:What's your reflections?
Speaker 3:Well, so far, there are lots of people, lots of. You see everywhere, even outside of the conference. Everyone's wearing their band, everybody is in a bar and having discussions. You're in your hotel, you can see loads of people who are attending Inter. You can feel that everyone is here with one purpose in mind to connect, and I think that's great and really important. To meet people in person, you develop relationships that are completely different than just doing something virtually, and especially after the pandemic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's nice to be back, isn't?
Speaker 4:it.
Speaker 3:Better way.
Speaker 2:And have you ever just got to random people on the street wearing a lanyard and introduced yourself yet?
Speaker 3:Not yet. I mean, I only landed last night, so not much opportunity at this point You're still working for the jet lag. Quite right, but I didn't have any, so we're good.
Speaker 1:So tell us a bit more about RWS and what it is, what it does, because you said translation and IP services, so develop that.
Speaker 4:Do you want to start? I can start. Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 3:So we will assist with services throughout the IP lifecycle. So we're starting in R&D so we might perform searches to identify that the invention is novel. We'll then help through foreign filing so the translation and filing. We'll help with the renewals that have to be kept up with your IP maintenance and any recordals that are required should you have an acquisition or a divestiture. And then finally, further searches that basically follow the passionate life cycle over 20 years. We don't deal with passionate prosecution. That's something that we believe law firms should continue to do and leverage those expertise. So we very much work alongside a lot of our law firms. What can you?
Speaker 4:add Well, I'm more of a new host. Hello, what's going?
Speaker 2:on here.
Speaker 3:Oh sorry, Can't help myself.
Speaker 4:So I'm very much around the history. I think that that helps with the storytelling. So what I would add to the perfect description and introduction to what RWS does is just that in 1958 there was a company that was set up that was focusing in pattern translation, so that was Randall. The owner or the founder name was Randall. And then at the same time there was Walcott and Co in the states which was focusing in pattern search.
Speaker 4:They probably met at an inter and they got together and they decided to do Randall Walcott Services and they became RWS. What I've seen change in RWS is how much focus we now give to make sure that our messaging is as clear as possible that we are a support services company. We are the extension to a law firm's team. We are not here to replace, we are here to empower. This is a really cliche sentence.
Speaker 2:I see you've got the T-shirt on as well, with that written on it.
Speaker 4:It's a good look.
Speaker 2:No, it's important. I think, as a user of these various services and things, they're really, really important. There's stuff that private practice isn't geared up to do. I don't think anyone expects any particular competition. It's really good dovetailing of the way these two things work together. I mean, the translation one's an interesting one. That landscape has changed massively over the last what? 20 years, maybe For more than one reason, because long before Google Translate came along, we had the London Agreement also reducing language requirements and things. But it still remains a really relevant and important part of the offering, I think.
Speaker 4:I think it does, but it also depends where you're protecting your rights. So obviously the perception around the quality that's needed for patent translation in the European grand stage is becoming more and more, especially with the introduction of the Unite patent and the confusing message that the BO has provided on their website that the translation has no legal effect but at the same time you can't use a machine translation. It is confusing. We do get clients asking us can I just use any translation, just put something there? That's not going to be an issue. And I said no, we believe that you have to keep a quality translation. When you're in the BCT, national phase entry, you don't have the patent yet.
Speaker 4:Then everyone's still a bit more concerned. But the shift that I see in the industry is that a few years ago the cost of doing a national phase entry 40 to 60 percent of the price would be the translation. Because of the advance of ai and the, the different technology that will increase the output and the speed of a translator to perform that action, I think we will see that percentage reduce to almost just an add-on to the whole thing. So it's becoming more and more commoditized. It is where it's going and we just have to make sure that, as the technology evolves, the human is there to support it and making sure that it's doing the right thing.
Speaker 1:So how much is technology an opportunity and how much is it a threat?
Speaker 4:So my next table topic is about genuine intelligence, and that's something that RWS coined, so it was a term that we've come up with. You have artificial intelligence, you have human intelligence, and where they intersect is where you have the best. So in the middle is the virtue, et cetera, et cetera. I think technology is 50-50, because if you don't behave in a good way, or if you don't look at the technology advancements and legislation doesn't follow with how much quick technology evolves, you are probably going to find that it's more of a threat instead of an opportunity to make everyone's lives easier yeah, you gotta assume it's coming and go with them.
Speaker 2:We've emma. We've talked about this before about where does ai fit into all of it? What are you seeing people asking for? Where is it being useful so far?
Speaker 3:I think, especially with translations. If you think about how clients budgets are looked at much more closely now and you're being asked to do more with less, how can we make sure that you're able to achieve the maximum that you require with your budget and still file where you want to file? So we'll always look at technology as something that is incredibly important and, as humans, you're always looking for the quickest route to get to where you need to get to. So if something is going to help you achieve that and still achieve the same quality, why would you not introduce something into that process? But then there are lots of concerns that clients have around security that clients have around security. So making sure that all of the policy and procedures are in place in order to be able to offer such a service and meet the requirements that clients have is the first undertaking, and reassuring clients that their data is protected and that their competitors aren't going to benefit from it as well is something that I think is really close to clients at the moment.
Speaker 1:The data is interesting because it's come up on other podcasts that we've done so. I work in the UK with quite a lot of other association chief execs and data sovereignty is probably the biggie for us at the moment because we've all moved to the cloud many years ago. We're now being encouraged to I won't use brand names and stuff. That would be terribly unfair but we're now being encouraged to I won't use brand names and stuff. That would be terribly unfair, but we're now being included encouraged to move our data to leading sort of web services and and I was a bit nervous about that because you know, if that's, if that's if we're in the uk and my data is being held in the states, what does that mean for me in terms of ownership? Is that similar? Is that a similar sort of story?
Speaker 3:yes, in, just quite simply. But I think that every client is going to have their own security questionnaire and requirements that need to be met, and every country is different. If you look at the eu and gdpr, it's very different to the us.
Speaker 1:So, taking that into consideration and ensuring that we can address and reassure clients that what we're doing is held within a secure and do you manage that by having your data in sort of one or two jurisdictions or do you have like a multi jurisdictional approach? You're getting quite technical, I'm just interested in this.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure if we would be in a position to answer or even know I probably could find the information out for you. That's right. I don't have it to hand this cloud thing On a podcast that's going to be held to my word. Come back to find me.
Speaker 2:I love the fact that we're now trying to work out where the cloud is. The whole point of the cloud is.
Speaker 1:it's not somewhere. Now you're worried about whose cloud?
Speaker 2:Do you know? I don't know what the origin. By the way, it's slightly peripheral. I don't know what the origin of the word, the term cloud is, but I'm pretty sure, having seen thousands in my job, that basically they have a picture of a phone, one end and the beacon, and then the other end would be a phone and the beacon. In between they just draw a cloud because they don't know what's there.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure that's why it's called the cloud. But the whole point is it shouldn't matter where it is and actually I do, having done some of the tech on this. It's odd that it might be being brought back to geographical locations. I can see why it's interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4:I mean, it's always on a server somewhere, and I think that's where it's an imaginary cloud. So I know that there's some locations where the servers are that are more complicated, and so I think why geography should remain, just because it's physical.
Speaker 2:So obviously you've got lots of clients and you talk to a lot of people. What are they asking for? That's not there yet. What are the impossible asks you're hearing from people?
Speaker 4:So I think we heard that from you as well. So there's a lot of requests for good patent drafting tools that can help, not replace the patent attorney in drafting it. They are looking at companies that have AI into their suite of products to come up with something. They're also asking more and more for integration to existing products more than can you bring me the new one-stop shop that I'd have to move everything over. Yeah, so I think we saw a shift from as long as I have an IPMS, then everyone. I just have to sell the IPMS and then everything will be with me. Ip management system. Ip management system. Thank you very much. Podcast pro.
Speaker 2:Matt Podcast pro.
Speaker 4:We went from trying to get the one-stop solution to what fits with your team and what fits with your work and they said well, I want this from so-and-so and I want that from that provider and I want to keep this because we've spent a lot of money and time building this and training the team. Can you make sure that we stay in the same environment but we benefit from the extra services that you have? And so integration, I think, is on everyone's mouth and yeah, so I think drafting ai and integration emma I think as well with the drafting part.
Speaker 3:It's not just having the tool, it's making sure that it doesn't hinder. So a lot of chemical clients find that the AI and the other lands are struggling with those chemical structures and there's no value in adding all of that in. Some clients feel that they don't want the tool. They trust the humans that they have within their business that know the product so well and have that now that they have developed and honed over many, many years and they don't see ai as something that can disrupt. But I'd be interested in two years time to see if we're still saying the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think at the moment we've seen personal anecdotal, you see AI, stuff that isn't very good in various areas the drafting tools you talk about and the analysis tools. One shouldn't therefore say, oh, it's not working.
Speaker 2:It's just learning. The whole thing's learning so quickly. Actually, this is a new thought. I've always said that the patent system is brilliant because one of its lovely side effects is that it publishes every scientific advance that's been made in the last 150 years. It's published, that's what it's there for and obviously protected, yada, yada, but it's all there. I was just actually thinking that originally that was to balance the monopoly but giving something back to the public, etc. And that's kind of, as we all know, that's the policy then. I don't think it was ever. This policy clearly wasn't developed for a new world, but basically learning opportunities for machines of every aspect of human technology as a result of that system is a lovely add-on, I hope. I hope it's a good thing. What do you use AI for? Do I use AI?
Speaker 1:for what do I use? Yes do you know what? Not a lot actually yeah, me too yeah and I don't know if I'm not a luddite I don't think I am but I've just not seen the needs. So I love writing and that's what I would probably use it for, but if that's a policy paper or kind of strategic plan or something like that, but but why would I want to deprive myself of the creative process that I go through to get there?
Speaker 1:which is, which is what I would, which is what I would need to do. So I mean, we we will use it, obviously in terms of in membership associations, for the way we perhaps analyze our data and those kinds of things, but I can't see a way that it would make my life better currently.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I feel really intrigued. I don't use it at all. I've got something called Al Overview. He seems very helpful on the internet, but I've got a mate who's an academic. It's Al-I-I. Oh.
Speaker 1:No, no, willem, that's it, no, anyway. No, he's a well-published academic. No.
Speaker 2:Anyway. No, he's a well-published academic.
Speaker 1:Al Overview.
Speaker 2:No, not Al Overview. Honestly, he's such a helpful guy. No, he's a really well-published academic. This gentleman Not Al Ovevi, my mate, I'm not going to name him, but he actually uses Al to. He types in what would I brackets name have said on the following topic, and then he gets told by the AI what he would have said and then he just uses it. Actually, I don't know about that last bit. He may not use it, but he's just curious to know what he thinks about stuff. Now and he's published. He's well enough published. I have done that.
Speaker 1:I have done all right. Yeah, I'm a bit that much of an egotist. I do put my own name in say what would I?
Speaker 2:yeah, all right, well, I have done that. Were you surprised by the output? It was sorry, this is a podcast, it was scary accurate oh, okay, I mean, you're pretty predictable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, yeah, and obviously I don't speak on a range of subjects, do do I? We probably ought to do it for the podcast. We probably ought to do an entirely AI-driven podcast.
Speaker 2:Didn't they send us a script that was entirely Al-driven, al-driven. We should get Al on, actually Al overview. What's your thought on that? Were you doing San Diego? Very much so.
Speaker 4:Been before. No first time in California. Actually, I was corrected the other day because I was saying no, I've been here before, I've been in Seattle, and I was like that's not California, isn't it?
Speaker 1:No, exactly, it's the same sign. I think it's in.
Speaker 4:Mexico, don't start with Mexico. I think it's a very similar vibe in Seattle and San Diego. Okay, I was very, very, very surprised and, yeah, loving it, you've been here a few hours.
Speaker 2:Have you been here before?
Speaker 3:No, so I went to LA first. But yeah, san Diego, no, I haven't been to, and I've just come from Phoenix, where it was 30 degrees every day, blue sky, sunshine.
Speaker 4:And I landed in San.
Speaker 2:Diego and it was cold and cloudy, which takes me to our Mexico point. We're right by Mexico. I've said this elsewhere already today we're right by Mexico. When did Mexico turn into Rill? It makes no sense. Rill is a British seaside, welsh seaside town that basically is a bunch of static caravans in rain and kind of, is Tijuana really like that?
Speaker 1:Can I bring this back to an ip podcast? Is that okay? I've really enjoyed this, but yeah if I just drag us back to it, one of the, I would think, interesting things about the job that you two do is that you're seeing stuff coming over the horizon, so you've got a sense of what's coming next. What's coming next?
Speaker 4:I think there's a lot of there. There's a rise in AI applications, I think, autonomous vehicles. This is all public data, so obviously I'm only talking to the data that is actually already published. So we also handle Paris Convention, which is before they're published and obviously we can't comment on that. But I think AI is growing in autonomous vehicle vehicles and also to in the healthcare area, so biomedics as well. But, as I said at the beginning, I tend to focus just on on the ips in general and what I've noticed is that william and I did a couple of podcasts on the epo and the unitary pattern and what I've noticed is that the volume of grants coming out of the EPO have been steadily at a high level and everyone was predicting it was coming down. It was coming down, but it's still going very strong. We monitor this every week and it's really good to see how Europe has a very, very large pool of inventors, all grant, all innovating and then going down to the system to to file their patents. So I think that's what I'm seeing.
Speaker 3:I suspect that there'll be new innovation areas that will come up and others that will disappear. I think it's inevitable in any innovation. If you look at something from 50 years ago, technology has advanced so much that there'll be things that were developed that we no longer use. Yeah, and so I think it's just the constant cycle of innovation that continues to to be driven by the people and the inventors, and what they're learning now and what will come in years to come.
Speaker 1:So we're getting close to time. There's only thing we've not talked about that you particularly wanted to talk about in the podcast.
Speaker 4:Well, I just wanted to go off topic and because of the hat and I have a really nice dad joke about hats, is that?
Speaker 1:okay, it's fine. It's fine, it's PG. It's PG, okay, cool.
Speaker 4:So one of our colleagues told us this this week why does a canoe, when you turn it upside down, fit well in your head? Because it capsizes.
Speaker 2:Oh no, Thank you so much, oh no. I don't think we can't finish on that we can't finish on that.
Speaker 1:No, we can't finish on that, dad. So you both said that you found yourselves in the world of IP by accident more than by design. Yes, he's still laughing at his joke. I'm going to talk long enough. I'm going to talk long enough that he will recover that's my plan. I am in the world of IP by accident. I'm sure Gwilym probably never attended to be a patent attorney from the very outset. I wanted to play football for Wales, did you? Yeah, well, you've ruined my question.
Speaker 1:So I was going to ask you, if you weren't working in the world of IP, what would be your great passion? I'll be playing football, for thank you for getting there for me so emma yes, if you were working in the world of ip, this can't be any job. It's not like what would be your favorite. There's something around another passion that you have that you could work in that passion okay, well, I used to write songs, oh, wow, oh oh and I still do, but I don't manage to complete them.
Speaker 3:So I shifted into poetry, so I had the creative side of. That is something that I've always loved, and I have a knack for lyrics, which is why I have gravitated towards languages, because the way that I learn is auditively as well as visually.
Speaker 2:Do you write the lyrics and the music?
Speaker 3:Not the music.
Speaker 2:Alright, I've got a musical collaborator for it, if you want.
Speaker 3:Okay, oh. Collaborative for if you want, okay. Oh yeah, not me. I'm quitting my job now.
Speaker 4:No, don't do that, andre. How about you? So I've just found out that we share something in common. So when you asked that question, I was like, what do I do? And I remember that I almost challenged my family into doing something. That they said, no, why are you going to do that? That's just you're not going to make any money. That they said, no, why are you going to do that? That's just you're not going to make any money you're going to be a poor.
Speaker 4:So I wanted to be an actor and in Portugal you have this acting conservatory or the official acting school that you have to do some tests to get in. And I failed miserably. But I used the text, a stand-up improv segment from Rowan Atkinson when he plays the devil, where he comes in and says I am the devil, I know the sketch, yeah.
Speaker 4:You can call me Toby. Yeah, and I was in love with acting. I think I've managed to find a way in the role that I do in IP to keep some sort of that alive. So every time you interact with someone, you don't take this the wrong way, but you have to put a mask.
Speaker 1:Performative, performative.
Speaker 4:So that's me A failed actor and a reasonable salesperson.
Speaker 1:I used to write lyrics Limey, you know I was in a band for a wee while. I'd go back there. I think I was in a band for a wee while, yeah, and I'd go back there. I think I was frustrated because none of my band mates were serious enough to ever make a go of it and it all fell over when they started getting girlfriends and having children and stuff like that there's an Ed Sheeran song about that.
Speaker 2:What's your best lyric?
Speaker 1:oh, he's fat and he wobbles as he's on his way to work what it was a song called the fat businessman.
Speaker 2:It was an.
Speaker 1:Oh, he's fat and he wobbles as he's on his way to work. What it was? A song called the Fat.
Speaker 2:Businessman, it was an observational piece.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's fat and he wobbles as he's on his way to work. I could sing it actually, but I'm not going to. Oh, come on who was your muse. What was my muse? There were multiple muses in that Multiple muses. There are multiple musics in that multiple musics. I think that's probably a great place to end the podcast, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I think I'll go back to Andre's joke.
Speaker 1:Thank you both for coming on, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having us and enjoy the rest of winter high NTA high NTA.
Speaker 2:We'll see you next time.