Two IPs In A Pod

Behind the Headlines: James Nurton on IP Journalism

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Recorded at INTA, this episode sees Lee Davies and Gwilym Roberts sit down with veteran IP journalist James Nurton to explore the evolution of intellectual property reporting over the past three decades. From the transition from print publications to digital-first media, James shares insights into the challenges of breaking news in the IP sector, the growing importance of analysis and context, and the realities of maintaining exclusivity in an age of instant information sharing. The conversation also covers effective interviewing techniques, memorable industry scoops, handling confidential sources, and the enduring value of thoughtful journalism, offering a fascinating perspective on how IP news shapes understanding across the global intellectual property community.

Conference Setting And Small Talk

SPEAKER_04

So actually you would have been coming into journalism at the time, not just when the world was chanking in IP in the sense that Coffee Tech was done to provide. Yeah. Um, but also it would have been for journalism. I mean, yeah y you'd you know oh it wouldn't have been that long previous for people who use type four as for example.

SPEAKER_00

Lee Davis and Gwillam Roberts are the two IPs in a pod, and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Pattern Atomy.

SPEAKER_04

Although I'm probably sure we stand there, should I? Because if these don't go in order, yeah. Yeah. It's no scheduling gets lost. And also there's no daylight here, we're just in an orange. And it could be midnight, yeah, couldn't it? And it could be midnight. It's interesting, isn't it? Because I I've even forgotten that I'm in London. I could be back in San Diego or Atlanta, or it just looks the same. When you look outside of the exhibition, it's just exhibition, isn't it? That's fantastic. It's a huge aircraft carrier full of IP exhibits. Yeah, you wouldn't think that there were this many things in IP that people would get excited about. It's quite a few good figures. I've got a book. You've got a book interesting. You don't have to go get it now.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, okay, yeah. It's an interesting topic that I've not had much about recently.

SPEAKER_04

No, no, no, it's not been mentioned 27 times this morning. No, no. No. No. It's probably going to be better to begin now. Yeah. Tree of the guess on.

Escape Room Story And Rapport

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. James Dutton, welcome to the podcast. Well, thank you for having me. You're it's it's lovely to have you. I've heard this has been an ambition of mine for some time to get you on. I don't know why. I think you're quite an interesting mic.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, last time that I saw you at INTA, I think we were in an escape room.

SPEAKER_04

We are in an escape room. I was telling William about that earlier. We uh yeah, uh uh, which we escaped from. Uh yeah, I was gonna say, well, I might have still been there actually for your help. So yeah. It is. We've got little up, here you are. We got we got um we got partnered up with a couple, didn't we, and they seemed to be confused about how British people attempted an escape room.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Do we did you want a date to an escape room? Well, the two of you. I think it was the uh grand finale last year. Yeah, it it in um Gasland. Well, but the whole everybody in the escape room.

SPEAKER_04

No, no, so so they they railed off, if that's the right word, a block. They did a block party. Remember that, yeah. Yeah. And um so everything within the block party was free, so you just have to put your name down and you go to the escape room. So yeah, me, John, Kenya.

SPEAKER_02

You couldn't take a drink in it. You wouldn't so you got you know, basically the incentive to escape you get a drink.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, back to L Mar.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And yeah, but I can't remember whether a couple with us were American or Canadian, but there was certainly kind of York American. And yeah, we have different approaches to escape rooms. How so? That's actually why the guy was just trying to literally escape. Yeah, if you had a shovel, he'd have been tired.

SPEAKER_02

We had this naive idea that you should try and work out as fuzzy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's supposed to be more effective, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Was he panicking? Did he know what he'd taken off? I think it was I think he just didn't understand what was happening. Oh, you're actually going to lock us in a room? So dreams. Yeah. Uh we've had to like dance on this. So, James, introduce yourself.

How A Journalist Lands In IP

SPEAKER_04

Uh, you've been in and around the world of IP for quite some time, but on the on the um poacher side, maybe that's how we talk about journalists.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, 30 years. So I started in IP um in 1996, which is honestly was a was a, as you'll know, a great year. I mean, it was the year of the EUTM and uh and um at one of my first interviews. I was uh so I started as a journalist. Um Sky Am, I guess, a hack. Um some sort. And I've worked for a long time at MIP, managing IP, and now I sort of free large do lots of different things which we can talk about. Um but yeah, um, I'm you know, um uh not a lawyer, not an IP attorney, uh so I could be outside it. And uh it's been an interesting ride, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So I'm interested why IP because I imagine you train do you train like never clear as a journalist? I don't know much about journalism.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean it's it's changed actually. So it changed around the time I I got into it. Um because you know the traditional room's journalism was was a sort of had to be an apprentice. Yeah. You know, you had a local paper off of a lease call, 16, um, and with more people graduating, you go to university, that would change. I I'd so my route was I'd done a bit of student journalism.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um I studied history, which as everyone knows is basically useless. Unless you actually want to become a historian. But fun, you know, yeah, pretty enjoyable. Uh and I'd done some student journalism and then I was like, well, yeah, but you can give this a go. Uh age 21, I think I got a job as a trainee on managing IP.

SPEAKER_04

So you didn't it wasn't like an aspiration to get into the intellectual property of journalism where you just hadn't start there.

SPEAKER_02

Knew nothing about IP later time, and uh people would probably say I still don't. Never seen it. That's that's terribly unfair. Um so But it was it was, I mean, like I say, the EETM was taking off. Um yeah, the internet was was actually just taking off doors very uh, you know, Google I think was in '96. Um there was some really interesting stuff happening in the tech area with with um biotech hassons, things like that. Uh so it was you know, it was an exciting time.

SPEAKER_04

So actually, you would have been coming into journalism at the time, not just when the world was changing in IP in the sense that code for tech was starting to provide. Yeah. Um but also it would have been for journalists. I mean, yeah you you you know oh it wouldn't have been that long previous for people who use typewriters, for example, would it?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Absolutely, yeah. I mean, you know, and uh and printing with the technology of printing big changed DCP despotship. What was your early word processor of choice? Um well I thought I until I started work, I'd never used the computer. Well I I know it's not five too, but I'd hardly use the computer. I didn't use one in my degree, um, never used email. Um and you know, we used to um yeah, we LIP used to publish arsenals from all over the world. They'd come in on floppy disk, you know, in the backup. Uh and often they'd get delayed or something, we'd have to type everything up, you know. So it was yeah, it was a different world. And that changed very quickly for us.

SPEAKER_04

Um, it's still an answer for question. What was your word? Processing to the word processing program was your either of choice or just the first one that you'd have a tab to use?

SPEAKER_02

Um gosh, I mean I well, I I I used a Mac, you see, I used a Mac. Yeah, so I did you we did use some Apple stuff. Um, but I had an electric typewriter. Yeah, with the correction. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why not wait a dye? A golf ball was it? It was a dominator, but you you you you typed one line in the city.

SPEAKER_04

You saw it on a loop screen and then it then it typed in. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So as long as you were quick correcting your little kind of last sentence, we could say made a word perfect, by the way. So word perfect. Yeah, that mine was, so I was um I was still teaching. Uh and we used to do everything by lettrose for like OHP transparency. Some handouts for stewards was or the banner machine. And we always just smell of whatever that um ethanol stuff that was in there. Um and then I discovered PageMaker was the first package I had used, which is which was horribly clunky to use, but looked quite good.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the things I remember about those up, you know, for the early years was was the printers. Yeah, the the print the actual um printing machines and the the guys who did the printing were in taking part of what we did who went naturally twice, and it's so yeah, it's kind of proper industrial process, huge machines, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um uh noisy, snelly type type setting type setting. Yeah, yeah. It's just of course you were purely print back then. You were purely offering uh for several years, actually, yeah. I mean my first few years. So we literally print the magazine, send out around the world, distribute conferences like INTA, you know, the booth. Um and that was that was what we did, yeah. And then gradually we we did more and more online, and then it's they're totally online now.

unknown

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And how did you find, I mean, because a as a trans you were a transitioner, as it were, because you were sounds like you weren't particularly computer oriented before you came into it, and then suddenly you had to kind of adopt this toky new

Print To Digital And Business Pressure

SPEAKER_03

medium. Yeah. How did you find it?

SPEAKER_02

Were you a good were you an early adopter or we were exploring it? I mean, opposed so personally, I wasn't probably an early adopter, um, but you know, we were trying trying to work out what was there are different levels, aren't there? I think um, you know, on one level that's just how you work. Um, and but the bigger question was actually look how it affects the business hall. I mean, because that, you know, make obviously copying a lot easier, people would would put our posts online, people just distribute them pending the PDFs and just send it to uh mates. Yeah, yeah. Um so uh and the other thing was advertising chats, because you know, we we um uh certainly in the early days I was ever you know the bulk of the revenue was was from uh either sponsored editorial or display advertising or later on events thoughts, that kind of thing. And that was still is very hard to replicate online, yeah, yeah. Um for for lots of reasons. So yeah. So that's the whole business model I think for publishing specialists area certainly is looped, more subscriptions, and uh someone cut. So we never knew the paywall, did we? That bonus. That was the big question, yeah. Where where when do you have a paywall? Yeah. Um what what do you make available? What do you keep back? Was it was really tricky, and um I think like a lot of publishers you just try and see what worked, and yeah, some things did and some things didn't, you know.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so I remember uh like local press. So put it in the Hawkesworth news, um, it just went advertising heavy and actually you couldn't read all the online because you're on dialogue, but you remember the local papers were obviously things for the classified adverts.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The loot was where you get if you wanted to bring a a a flat, yeah, you'd go through these listings or buy a car or something. All went very quickly, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I used to love those the um personal when people were sort of got the pre-dating app. Yeah, you'd give your kind of description of what you're looking for. There's the boys with the men's one and the women's one. And I used to actually spend time trying to link them up. Oh, all the bears to go without that. It was great fun.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, go on, that's not why you were looking, was it? I can explain it. So let's let's talk about some of your journalism uh exploits.

What Counts As Breaking News

SPEAKER_04

That's right, what? What's um if you had any big story stories that you would think, yeah, it was like breaking news dish.

SPEAKER_02

In our world, you know, in our world, that's you know, I mean funny is that it's sort of hard to be breaking news in this field, I think. Yeah. Uh because yeah, I mean um you know, the biggest stories are gonna be things which you you can't really cover. So like if you know uh the good example would be a judgment, the case if you if you cover that prematurely, you're probably in contempt with you, you know, uh you're gonna get in a lot of trouble. Uh and there'd be one or two times when I could have done that, um, and you know, yeah I wouldn't touch that. Can't afford that. Um uh so so those kind of things, I mean you you know, you you are wary. I think there's also going back to uh the point about how the industry's changed, that news has less value now because I could put something up tomorrow, but everyone could copy it. But yeah, it'll be on every other relevant it's it's interesting, but it'll be other relevant news fight. Uh so um so actual news perhaps doesn't have as much value compared to say analysis and uh and contacts and and getting a good interview. So I mean some of the best things I've done have been interviewed. Okay, where you get someone uh uh and uh then you get some really good stuff out of them. But you can still get you can still get sort of scoops if you've got really good sources. I think that's you know that's uh

Interview Tactics That Get Real Answers

SPEAKER_02

as a journalist, your best essay is your sources. Yeah. And the best tip for any journalist is to cultivate as many sources as you can, and there's diverse arrangements, you know, and and think about how you get stuff out of them. That's where the skills are.

SPEAKER_04

So where um when novice interviewers are well, we're five years in, but this isn't the this this this isn't the day job for us, Grim, is it? No, by a long space. What are your tips? What are your tips for me and Grillam as um as budding interviews? I think that's the thing.

SPEAKER_02

And and and also look look likely. I mean, if you want to know what's going on court, going on in the courts, you know, yeah, obviously you want to talk to judges, that's right. Talk to Barrists, let's talk to the law folks. Barrists' clerks. Yeah, yeah. They are they're the ones that often know, you know, who's getting all the cases, what you know, what what the trends are, that kind of thing. Yeah. Um and that and and you've also I when I do an interview, and I think you probably do this too, you I always not spoken to before, I always say, look, just to me a bit for myself. Yeah, because uh I'm just gonna get to know you. Uh either just for a couple of minutes. Uh hopefully it makes sense for it, he's gives me a bit of an insight.

SPEAKER_04

And we we always do this thing, and we did it at the start, but yeah. Um in the before we actually start, we tell people this is just a conversation. That opens them up a bit, doesn't it? As they actually think that they are just having a conversation. Then of course it's being it's been recorded and you you'll use it in certain ways. People get drawn into a false sense of security, I think, at conversations. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I think it's there's also something, and maybe you you learn this as a journalist, maybe you don't quite as much as a lawyer because there's a professional reputation of things, but don't be afraid to the achievements, you know. Oh, it's a book. Yeah. Sorry. So it's uh you get I expect I mean actually at the opening ceremonies, which were yesterday, women talking on Monday, I'll be um uh the uh so they had uh uh Annie Heinlach speaking, Dame Annie Heinlach, uh fashion designer, and they asked her a question about women in leadership and they asked her uh what can men do to to help? Uh and she, I'm paraphrasing this, she basically said uh we don't need men, but what women can do it for themselves. And got a terrific round of applause. Yeah, yeah. And obviously that wasn't the answer they were expecting, I think. But the answer they got. Uh and I I learned that quite yard, because I did um in student journalism, I uh did some interviews uh with people who had burnt sound stuff, and what was Glenda Jackson and the sort of Oscar-winning actor that something had just become an MP. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she was terrified to be felt so. Uh and I um she she had very short answers, and I had this question, but I still kind of embarrassed. I said something like, so it it I come with the context. I said it's Shakespeare your first laugh. And as I said that I was a stupid thing to say, yes, be shame. And she kind of paused and looked at me as if saying, I'm just feeling sorry for you. And then she started saying, um, you know, acting is it's not it's not an emotional experience to me. It's it's a job. It's a job. It's a job. I you know, it's not a question of whether I love it or not. I I do the work, I get paid, I mean what's the next. And actually, that was amazing, and that would do. So really I rem I remember that. Yeah, yeah. So they ask stupid questions, you never know where they're gonna go. You never know where they're gonna go, yeah. And and yeah, and sometimes you just do those stupid bumps, you know. I don't think it's a terrible question, just for the method, isn't it? It's okay.

SPEAKER_04

It's it's it's Shakespeare your first bloodly. Well, no. And that's why it's a terrible question. Because it's closed, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Why why is the yes why yeah, what why why do you love Shakespeare?

SPEAKER_02

That would be great. And if only you'd been there, Lee, it was hard, you know. Could I help me out there? Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So I thought the interview thing's really interesting because uh also obviously when we do it's live and it's kind of unfiltered. As a journalist, you get the opportunity to hear it all and then structure it and I I guess be selective in a hopefully helpful way, and unless you could try and make a point. But that that analysis and that must be really interesting, which fits to drop which.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I mean I think particularly in the field we're in where you can, you know, often issues have a lot of different um aspects to them. And it's like often Google Interview English is not their first language as well, so uh it was like maybe technical stuff. And sometimes you're only looking for a couple of sandbikes, you know, other might fix them for half an hour and get two quoto. Yeah. So yeah, it's uh you know, it comes with experience. I think the more experienced you are, the more you know what you're looking for when you set out. Um and yeah, you always prepare to be surprised, but you know when you've got it, you know when they say something, you think I can use that. And that maybe because you already know can't be where the story's going. Or maybe because they said something that's just really interesting. Um and you often, you know, you do need to say to people, oh look, can you explain that a bit more? Or yeah, what do you mean by that? Uh or or even put the devil's African thing and say, Well, are you saying this? Yeah. But then, you know, it's a blabbable fit interview, too. It's not no great insights. Your job is to try and get people to say more than they might want to. Yeah. Sometimes, yeah, but sometimes it's actually just getting just knowing who to talk to and getting uh and then giving them a a a a a vehicle, I suppose, to tell them say what. I mean so I was thinking uh earlier on, because we're INTA, I mean, it answers your question about what scoops.

Madrid Protocol Scoop And Source Trust

SPEAKER_02

I mean, one scoop I do remember, uh and your older listeners might sort of relate to this, was uh it was about the US joining the Madrid protocoptic lag, but uh so things are quite long ago now, but there was a big debate about this. So there was a lot of resistance in the US to joining for for such reasons. Uh and it's being debated in Congress, dragged on for ages, uh, but it was obviously a really important thing. It wasn't the US going to join right now. And uh uh a guy called Bruce McPherson, I think I can say he's tied, um, was the RTA policy guy for a long time, and I knew him very well. He was obviously very close to all this. And he rang the offright rang him and he said that they just busted it. And we put out a story uh saying US destroyed the dread protocol. And that was one of the few times I remember seeing, you know, like Northams are putting out uh emails to their clients saying as reported by MIP, yeah, that's called Nibel. I probably got that's right. Um but but um again that was also unusual because uh on that on that kind of thing, I think your your general rule would always be to have two sources that you know don't want to be um you know taken in by someone. But when you got someone like Bruce that you you knew and trusted and you knew he was right in the centre of things, yeah. Uh and there were the I think there were reasons why ITA could go out and announce what they need to go to separate trace, of course I'll say. So he he you know told me and I was a you know that was at the time, it was just for beer, isn't it? But I mean honestly it was uh cut good to get it out.

SPEAKER_03

In terms of um interviewing people in the business as well, I mean there have been a few people stories over the years as well. I think stuff in Wipo about 20 plus years ago. Um and EPR has always got this an accounting. I was thinking about a few EPO stories. Yeah, depending if you've ever had the interesting interviews, but it's got a bit of EPO maybe.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Um yeah, I mean again, I suppose Wipo actually more probably.

Handling Tips Rumors And Anonymous Leads

SPEAKER_02

Um so um when one of the previous director generals is kind of time is up, really, and we we had a I spoke to a lot of people who were kind of saying that you know you need to um quite senior people say this has got to come out. Uh and it did, and then that, you know, I don't think we we took any particular role in that, but um be left. Uh the EPO stuff was always a we we used to get a lot, I mean a lot of stuff from some of the EPO staff. And you had to be is your judgment about where you could trust and where you know where Puppa's agenda was. Uh and you know that uh is one of the challenges you face, because people often tell you stuff anonymously and you're not quite sure where they're coming from. Uh you used to wait a while. And I we they do MIB has moved on from the bed since I left. They do a lot more legal work and stuff now, but uh we were always a bit wary of doing too much kind of personal stuff. And uh, you know, people often say to me, you know, um, oh I can't tell you this, you know, you're just gonna spill it. We're we're literally we're not gonna publish a story about you know who who's sitting with who in the office. You know, I mean, it's just not not what we do, and it's not what our reader's really interested in, and it wouldn't do our credibility. Yeah, so uh and I always have this rule as well, uh, if I've got a drink in my hand it's up to rattle, so Oh that's good to pick that up, pick that up to be building. So, yeah, a lot I mean people often say, you know, you know, I've got to talk to you, but 90% of them tell you you're never gonna use. But there also I think there is a good lesson too, because I remember um one legal market thing we did cover, it was a minor story about a guy moving, setting up a department in another firm to move from one firm to another firm, took us out for lunch, uh, gave some of the good positive story. I think we wrapped a little piece about it. Afterwards, I've realized uh the reason he left his previous firm is that they had a mandatory retirement age, and so basically he had to leave. And so, you know, I had lunch with her. I should have asked the question, how old are you? You know, I did. Um, and uh it would have been a different story if I'd asked her. Well, that's interesting. Yeah. But but that's the kind of personal question you Yeah, you don't feel comfortable asking that maybe sometimes you should, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So I think well I'm I've known you for a long time. A long time. Um, and I actually go back to your point about people telling you things, uh, but you yeah, very seldom, yeah, quite a lot of the time you wouldn't. But I imagine, but no, I uh sorry, I always remember thinking you had your finger on the pulse more than anyone else I knew, basically, because of that. You weren't necessarily publishing it, that you would the kind of all the gossip was finding its way to you, feel stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and gossip kind of breeds gossip because if people trust and tell you things if you yeah, if you know them, if you uh some of it's kind of name dropping, probably, and some of it's about being at events like this and and and being seen. Uh so I think, yeah, again, it comes back to his trust, doesn't it? People trust you have tell you stuff, and uh uh you know one thing I found, particularly about more senior uh in in this area, that it is really important to go to things and talk to people, you know, even if you think they're not gonna be. Yeah, it's sometimes I think particularly with the younger journalists, researchers now, you know, they've they've got lots of work, they've got deadlines, they can sit at their desk. I remember I'm chatting with some of them and saying that it should come to these streams for some shit. That this little thumb is called this breakfast seminar and then saying, No, I've got to I've got to get this done, I've got get on this. But as it's always which you can't always spend the time meeting people, I think talking to people and it's fun as well. Yeah, everything, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

You mentioned judgments earlier and they're doing um kind of covering those real time for reasons that I think we all

Why Great Judgments Are So Readable

SPEAKER_04

know. Uh have you got any favourite uh judgments that when you were able to talk about it, yeah, the when the when judgment is passed and you can kind of talk about them? I mean, um well there's so many aren't there.

SPEAKER_02

I mean uh yeah I think uh as judgments have become more accessible or you know uh uh more easy to to read, I mean uh it is striking. I think we don't always give them the credit for this, how well written a lot of the judgments. Because that's exactly what's going to our mind. Yeah, yeah. Um and uh often when you talk to people about cases, you know and can be confusing or you know, but we read judgment in full. Uh not without exception, but but often uh they set things out very clearly and well structured. And I mean, one of the first judgments I remember reading was way back, uh, was uh Hoffman's judgment in the MG and TKT. Do you remember that? Um it's also language, I think it's right case. It talks about language and when you're writing uh patterns uh of uh yeah uh discovery technical uh inventions, very very technical, the limits of language. Sorry. Um I think I've got the wrong face. You have to correct me if I um we don't be fact-checking.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I can never be in. Uh certainly the whole what would the sealed person have understood the pattern he could have intended to mean such right. Sort of a lengthy sense of a really interplay and all those decisions are. And he was a great writer as well.

SPEAKER_04

Friend of the podcast, Sir Colin, of course, yes, there's a legend in these judgments. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Uh and uh yeah, uh absolutely, and uh it's interesting, isn't it? You particularly with the UK judges, I think because the judges the judgments of Britain were one person, some of the other jurisdictions they read more on the Remember Committee. Yeah, yeah, yeah. European Court Justice, Jane Court, uh and you perhaps don't get that clarity. Uh obviously it's a different system, uh different tones, and uh I guess each other narrate. But if you're actually actually looking for something that's readable and kind of follows and makes sense, having I think one judge writer is really upset.

SPEAKER_03

I don't read decisions outside IP lightly. I really can't see the point. I did read the Supreme Court one about proroguing or not proroguing parlance, and there's a masterpiece of so beautifully and it starts off so brilliantly saying this is not about race. So it starts off saying what it wasn't, and then went through basic from the Magna Carta on, but building up a story. Yeah, it was magnificent.

SPEAKER_04

Again, it's uh it's a it's a follow-in verse thing, but um the recent overturning of a Mazda of Charles Russell speech leaks uh oh yeah. Um it's the way he crafted that to make it not a criticism of the judicial process, that it was about perhaps people advised or not were advised. It's a brilliant brilliant piece of uh writing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, and I mean these guys are ever gonna judge you for good reason, but yeah, you know what you know the topic, but I think they also do communicate very well, and I think that's something we can all love now. Uh and you know, I guess I'm in the kind of business of communication, and there are different ways of communicating, aren't they? What we what we do or what I do as a journalist is uh it's different to what a lawyer or pattern saying it does, but all communicating little buttons.

Reporting For INTA And Seeing Readers

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So you're here in the you're here adding to the press fuss, I believe. Yeah. That's correct. So you're writing you kind of writing on their behalf or what's going on.

SPEAKER_02

I'm doing a couple of pieces for H, yeah. As I wrote uh I'm sure you read it, the the report about the opening ceremony yesterday, didn't we wouldn't miss it. Another piece in there today about the uh Royal Warriors.

SPEAKER_04

There's a scandal. Yeah, so yeah, we're kind of laid doing it for a friendly over lunch chat, didn't we? They were talking about the Royal Warriors. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Uh and then tomorrow they've got the um I'm too. So I've got to write a report about that. So yeah, forward to that. Uh uh, but yeah, um you know, I don't actually do that much for INTA. I do a lot of work with Marx, it's another trademark association. Yeah, yeah. Uh uh uh the best piece of ITA uh I can. Obviously, we did used to publish the INTA Daily News without you. That was uh 15 years or so we did that, which was challenging and interesting. And uh uh that was actually really rewarding to do as a journalist because uh come back to Peter earlier, we were historically a print publication, we'd send these things off around the world, never see them again, never really. You go a lot of feedback, people might say they'd see something you'd done. Come to the IETA, we'd do the daily newspaper, print several thousand copies of it. You'd go around and see people reading it. That's cool. Yes, and or at least looking at the pictures. Uh and uh, you know, it was actually you get an idea of you see what people would look at. Yeah, okay, or what which pages they would That is real time. Yeah, and I would do that. I'd walk, I'd literally walk around and and sort of say, oh yeah, okay, so that that that works, that maybe didn't work so well. And we and you never really get the opportunity to do that.

SPEAKER_04

So James, it's been lovely having you on, but we do this little thing at the end where I've thought I so part of my job with a podcast is to like keep trap for what's happening and maybe come up with a little tangential question

Guilty Pleasure Paper Reads

SPEAKER_04

at the end. I've got one for you. Yeah, you're it's coming your way, so get ready, okay? Um so James was talking earlier on about the kind of transition from a print to digital and how that sort of changed his world, it's over. I don't know if you're like me. Yeah. I still like uh a bit of a magazine or a journal in my hands, yeah. From dossi on the sofa or anywhere else where I won't need a bit of reading time. Yeah. What's your guilty pleasure when it comes to like something in your hands to read? Oh, just this whole fashion book. I don't know. What didn't you go to was like a journal or a newspaper or something like that, not just that book. Oh the oh, the New Yorker. I think that's the New York something with a bit of journalism in it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, the New York oh right, sorry, the New Yorker. I was it I love it. Um overlooked down funny enough, I was getting it delivered. I can't remember why, but it was an amazing story at that point. Because New York was at the epicenter. Yeah, like I remember getting one weekly copy of it. Yeah, and they thought that really exciting about what's going on in New Yorker Street, and there was literally nothing. They should say the things say nothing's happening. And they just went on with the rest of the magazine, but it's beautifully amazing. These really lengthy pieces and everything. Uh, and it's the right, it's a bloody shape and size. I'm in America, uh, I always from an airport. I will go and sit at the sports bar, have a close Sam Adams or something and read the New York, and it's one of my those things. Oh, so my favourite thing to do in America is literally that on the airship piece. Even in an airport, even the airport day, I'd deal with your way, then James.

SPEAKER_04

I'll make fun of you. You mustn't do what a previous guest did earlier today, that was still my one. Now say where I'm going with this, I'm just gonna walk out the podcast.

SPEAKER_02

Uh I think one of the few things I still read it always on paper is Private Light. I'm off. You're on.

SPEAKER_04

I love it. Ah, tell me what it's nice. Going now. It's been going so well. Oh my word, what are the chances? Tell me about Private Eye, even though it was gonna be my club.

SPEAKER_02

But I mean they're not really online. I think that's part of the reason why, but it's uh like I've read it for the whole time and uh there's actually I always end up thinking there's a lot more in there than you think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You sort of get in there's a fruit paper and you oh read that. Badly types there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's uh types to small. And uh yeah, oh yeah, it's uh and actually and it's lost some of I think some of the jokes uh probably that was funny. So they just sort of recycle from a bit. And frankly, if you're on social media, you know, a lot of it's kind of a bit old anyway. But but some of the um reporting and the uh ins and no, they have to strip. They still break stuff, don't they? They still break some stuff. The post office, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, and uh uh it's also just it's a convenient form now event.

SPEAKER_03

So it's a good reminder of we do have a free press, and quite often when I go overseas to countries where people are a little more careful, I bring a couple of secret copies and kind of hand them out physically. So you read this and it's quite because it's not going to be available in quite a few countries. And it's a really good indicator about it. I saw you know I give it that to go and draw sometime to the right.

SPEAKER_04

I'm just still sitting here thinking this has never happened to be on the podcast before, it's almost nicked my.

SPEAKER_05

Why has it happened twice in one day?

SPEAKER_03

No, I've got an answer. Yeah. Neat. What's your I've forgotten the concept. What's your guilty pleasure?

SPEAKER_04

So you have it in your hand. There uh there's only two. So my up 55, absolutely. Yeah, and I've the only other thing that comes through my letterbox that I diligently read is my monthly plumbing and meeting engineering news. Well that it's been 27 years since I worked in any way, shape, or form professionally in that industry, which is always teaching it. Um, but I still read it every month. Do we get little leaks?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, big laugh.

SPEAKER_04

Um they get a good pipe behind the box. There's always a CPD bit at the back. It's getting into like air pumps and stuff. And now heat source bots on. I'm not as good as I still did my CPD, I still fill in the CPD of the night in the rate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know body. You know it's all gone. It is alone. But yeah, but I choose to take the yeah, the hard copy because I've always had it to deliver it and it just means a lot to me. As an apprentice, I used to get it as an apprentice and read then. I'm still reading it now. But where did where should I have got it? So I wouldn't have I would have not gone to see for joker. The CPJ. No, of course. The seaperja. No, of course not, because I I see it in production. You know, it's uh I I I generally know most of the things that are going to be in there. Yeah, I'm not saying it's not a great read, it's privative. Make it your guilty pleasure. This is so probably not something.

Final Thoughts And Farewell

SPEAKER_04

Mr. Mr.

SPEAKER_02

Jones, thank you. Come on. It's been an absolute flavour, sir. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for enough for having me.