Retirement Identity Reset

Retirement looks simple on paper until you realize you’re not just leaving a job, you’re leaving an identity. Lee and Gwilym sit down with Rob Williams, a former partner and co-head of IP at Bird and Bird who retired at 56 and retrained as a retirement coach, to talk about what actually makes the transition hard for high-performing professionals in intellectual property, law, and patent work. 

They discuss the non-financial side of retirement planning: the “role loss” that can hit when status and self-worth have been tied to your work for 30 years, the assumptions people make about the honeymoon phase, and why many smart, capable people still feel unsettled after the celebrations and travel wear off. Rob shares a practical framework for designing a fulfilling retirement built around purpose, achievement, community, and direction, plus why “retirement” doesn’t always mean stopping work.

They also talk about the part people avoid: relationships. Partners, adult children, and grandkids may have their own expectations about your time, and mismatched assumptions can create tension unless you communicate early. Subscribe for more conversations at the intersection of IP careers and real life, share this with someone who’s starting to think about their next chapter, and please leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Identity Before The Exit

SPEAKER_02 0:00

One of the fundamental things that people need to have in mind about their retirement is their identity. What is the identity that they have? And what is the identity that they would like? And how might that transition or change be affected?

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Lee

Back In The Studio

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Davis and Gillem Roberts are the two IPs in a pod, and you are listening to a podcast on intellectual property brought to you by the Chartered Institute of Pattern Attorney.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Hey Gillem, good to see you. It's um first podcast in the normal podcast style since Inter, which was now a couple of weeks back. Um, although, given that those are going out over a number of weeks, who know who knows where we are in the in the timeline currently. It's a bit like being in a Doctor Who episode, isn't it, where you record it some time in advance and you don't know when it's actually going to go out and which which bit of the universe you're gonna be in, or am I talking absolute rubbish?

SPEAKER_02 1:03

No, no, you're talking complete, uh completely clearly. And also, thinking about it, of course, we assume people listen to the podcast the day it goes out. Whereas I think what often happens with podcasts is you hear one episode, you think, oh, I like that, and you go down the back, down the back catalogue. Definitely, yeah, no, I definitely do that. Yeah. They can we listen to this in like 30 years' time.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Yeah, so um so it people wouldn't necessarily know that we were doing this off the back of quite an extraordinary May heat wave that's now snuck its way into a June um storm. That's thunder and lightning outside.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Yeah, we're gonna be. I wonder what the weather would be like in thirty if if if they're listening in 30 years, I wonder if they'll say a bit of thunder and lightning. That's we co-co.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

We live on the moon. We um we've just had to batten down the hatches because we had the windows open across the office because it was um so warm in here and the aircon doesn't work terribly well. And then uh all of a sudden it felt like a small tornado ripped through the building. That wasn't you being a bundle of energy then? No, not at the moment. I've just I've just had a week off doing like bathroom renovations work and that, so I'm actually quite tired. How's your nose? How's my nose? Uh so yeah, I'm I'm dosed full of steroids, so for the moment the polyps are um shrunk, but I am I am now on a fast track waiting list to have most of my internal nasal kind of workings removed, which is something I'm not particularly looking forward to, because apparently it's quite a nasty operation, and obviously they can't stitch your nose up afterwards because you need to be able to breathe. So um, yeah, not looking forward to it, but yeah, you'll be without me for four to six weeks. What about that? That's a long time. I don't think CPA can cope. I don't know what we're gonna do. Apparently, it's because there is very real danger in the first few weeks that because they can't do much by way of um fixing the wounds that they make by removing um the lining of your nose, um, there's a risk of hemorrhaging to death. So I don't want that to happen.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

No, we don't. We we we we we really don't. Um I mean, next time I see you, then I'm expecting you to have absolutely enormous nostrils.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

That doesn't really work on a podcast, does it, if I um if I show you in the size. So,

The Retirement Question Hits Home

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Gwenham, I'm um I'm sort of reaching that age where I'm 60 this year, yeah. And I still think I still think well I'm young enough to not be thinking about the future and a future beyond work, but also conscious that I'm I'm reaching that sort of age when people do think about these things. You wouldn't have happened to have anybody to hand that knows anything about how you kind of plan your way into retirement, would you? Oh, it's a gap in the market, isn't it? But maybe today we can plug that gap, Lee. Let's do it. Let's plug my gap, Gwillen. Plug my gap.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Do we need to kick off with a plug-in? Yes. Yeah, go for

From IP Partner To Retirement Coach

SPEAKER_02 3:54

it. So, Rob, hi, nice to see you. Normally leaders this bit, but as we're in the same room, another thing that's lots from the visuals. Thank you for joining us. Um, I'm gonna give a quick intro, but then we're gonna dive into lots more details. Sure, sure. Very nice to be here, and I'm glad to be out of the rain because yeah, it is uh pretty shocking out of there at the moment. Um so uh yeah, my name's Rob Williams. I uh used to be a partner and co-head of the IP department at Bird and Bird. Uh, and I retired. I'm I'm leaving pauses after certain words, you'll notice. I retired uh from that role uh just over a couple of years ago now. Let's go back in time. So I started out uh as a trainee at Bird and Bird. I was there man and boy. My entire career spent at Bird and Bird following um uh a chemistry and law degree, which led me into intellectual property. And after spending some time doing a variety of different types of IP work, I settled down into patent litigation with a particular focus on work in the life sciences or the sort of the chemistry end of the spectrum, but it did a range of things. I also uh spent nearly 10 years as co-head of the London IP group, and I would say that as I was kind of reaching um a point where I thought, hmm, what next? I began to start thinking about retirement. And um I was very keen on ensuring that we had um a greater level of transparency in the in the team around people's future plans and an ability to look forward in a way that um took into account how people might come come up through the ranks, looking at partner promotions and the like, without necessarily presuming that all of the partners would retire at 65, which is the retirement age at the firm. And as many people will be aware and I'm sure have experienced, there are people these days who actually take the view that retiring at 65 is is something that they don't want to do, but they would like to retire earlier than that. And of course, there are people who would like to continue working beyond that. Um so, with that, all of that in mind, I was quite open about my thoughts around retirement and my plans. I'll leave another pause for for that transition. Uh so I had a uh three-year transition to my retirement date. And during that period of time, I obviously had some time to think about it, but I had also had some experience of managing and dealing with people who were retiring from the IP department. So I'd also had conversations with retirees and I had some experience of managing those people during that retiring to retirement transition. I also um asked if I could see a retirement coach because I was aware of such things because the London management team had had a presentation from a couple of people who worked in this area, and I thought it would be helpful for me to go through that process. And when I was going through that process, I became very interested in I'm going to say the non-financial side of retirement planning and the transition to retirement that is much more complex than maybe people appreciate. Something that really struck me was um, and it's not that it's it is said often, but the implication is you've had a very successful, high achieving career, let's call it in intellectual property, but it could be in another another area. How hard can retirement be? And and the answer is maybe harder than you think. And in particular, if you think that you've maybe spent 30, 40 years in a particular career, and you may have another 20 or 30 years to spend as a retiree. Yeah, yeah. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that you will stop work or stop work completely. There may still be some element of work or work type, you know, role um or roles that you undertake uh as as part of your retirement, but there's still a kind of a kind of expectation around retirement and what that is going to look like. And there are certain assumptions and and uh misconceptions that that that arise. So with kind of all of that to one side, I I decided that I wanted to become a retirement coach. And after looking into it, I realized that there weren't very many courses for training as a retirement coach. Uh the one that I I landed on required you to have a coaching qualification before you could do it. It's seen as a sort of a niche area of coaching, executive coaching. So I did an executive coaching course first, uh, and then I did uh a retirement coaching course, which um identified a number of things that I had already sort of picked up on or thought about, but in particular backed up a lot of the thinking with um academic research, academic models, and obviously um uh kind of learning in an in an environment where there were other people who were in the coaching world, had some experience of um dealing with retirees or pre-retirees, and it really did bring everything together for me uh in a way that uh I found really quite inspiring, actually.

Planning Beyond The Money

SPEAKER_02 10:57

And I decided that I would like to uh spend some time helping people with the transition to retirement, but not dealing with the financial side, dealing with the emotional, psychological, practical side of retirement and the associated process and transition. Do you find that people have thought about anything other than the financial side? I mean, the there's uh there's usually a spectrum, isn't there? I mean, you some presumably just think I've better retire now. Oh no, what do I do? Others maybe have an idea, or to know if people just say, right, time to retire. Oh heck, what do I do now? I as you say, uh there's a spectrum. Um, I think it's also um closely related to um the reason for retirement. You know, some people are sort of forced into retirement. There comes a point where they sort of get told, well, I think it's isn't it time for you to move on? And they're uh they're of an age where that is, you know, retirement is the obvious moving on step. There are others who will, you know, some way out think I would like to retire at age 56, 58, 60, whatever it happens to be. And they will be thinking about it. They'll be thinking about what their retirement is going to look like, what they want to do, what they don't want to do. Um, so there's a there's a whole there's a whole spectrum, but I think one of the key things that I have appreciated is that the people who have thought about it, they often haven't really thought beyond what's known as the honeymoon phase. So they really think about the the I'm gonna say the immediate stage post-the retirement event, and they think they think about that. Well, what is it that they really live? Absolutely you know, doing a a tour of New Zealand and the Far East, that sort of thing. Or maybe maybe maybe doing renovations on the house they've never got around to, whatever it happens to be. But but yes, there's a there's a a range, and uh I would say that some people are better prepared than others, but even the ones who are better prepared often aren't as well prepared as I think they could or should be. Lisa, you're talking about not being thinking about retiring in the near future, me neither.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Have you put any thought to it other? So my my my thoughts on not retiring in the near future are purely financial, Grenam, which I know is something that Rob said that uh isn't necessarily a focus. Because as you know, I did something really daft and got myself a 10-year mortgage just under a year ago. So um so I need to pay that off. So I'm working until I'm 70. That said, I've always thought to myself that I didn't want to particularly retire in any case, but I do want so I'd be interested to hear Rob's views on this. So I've always thought that I would do something quite dramatic in terms of a change of what I do for work. So I've got a little plan, Rob, right? Okay, this is what it is. Uh so for the last 25, 30 years, I've been in this world of um professional membership bodies, associations leading them, and stuff like that. Can be quite tiring at times. I've been trundling in and out of London for the best part of 30 years. But my my back history is I'm a plumber by trade. Now I got it in, got them, got it in. Um, plumber by trade. Um, I'd quite like to go to like working B and Q as a retiree, trundling up and down the aisles, just advising people on their general kind of like DIY, home needs and stuff like that. That would but that for me would be retirement. I'd still be kind of doing a bit, I'd be keeping myself active, but it would be very different. That's and that's and that wouldn't be for the money, because I wouldn't need the money, it would simply be to keep myself doing something. Because I I think I'm the kind of person that I couldn't go from uh from a fairly busy lifestyle to a sedentary, sort of um relaxing one at all. So that that's that's my great plan as I have one. You're that wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Uh I I've I've not heard that exact one before, but I've I've heard things similar. Okay. And I'll just make a couple of couple of comments. One of

Purpose And The Four Ingredients

SPEAKER_02 15:05

the fundamental things that people need to have in mind about their retirement is their identity. What is the identity that they have, and what is the identity that they would like, and how might that transition or change be affected? Now, you might say, well, your identity is something that's not something you can necessarily decide on yourself, but it's but it is, you know, it is it is in part down to you uh how you want want to be seen, your sense of self, your sense of of of you know who you are, uh, your values. And a lot of that comes from your you know, your work and your experience and your career and your social interactions, all sorts of different things. But your identity will change when you retire. It it just does, you know, as you and unless you unless your retirement is doing exactly the same as you did before, but maybe a bit less of, then then your identity will change. And when I was thinking about uh a sort of ingredients for a fulfill-in retirement, and this was before I'd done the retirement uh coaching course, I I came up with four ingredients that I thought were important. Firstly, a sense of purpose, and you often hear people talk about you need to have a sense of purpose. Second is a sense of achievement, thirdly, a sense of community, and finally a sense of direction. Now, all of those things can overlap. You know, you can have things that provide you with a sense of achievement. I'm going to clout climb Mount Kilimanjaro when I retire. Great, wonderful. But does that provide you with any sense of purpose? I would say possibly not. Some people would say, oh well, there is a purpose there. To me, in order to um uh things that provide you with a sense of purpose, provide a benefit to other people, you know, that they're not things that you do purely for yourself. Um sense of community, obviously. If you're doing it with a bunch of other people, you've got a team or what have you, you might you might uh engage that. Um but you know, different things will have a different combination of those those sensors, the four those four sensors. It's a little bit, you know, I've came up with it myself, and some people say, well, don't you need don't you need you know mental stimulation as well? And well, well, yes, probably. Uh, and and there are various other things that you might say rather ingredient. But it it it I think helps with formulating um an idea of what what what might might be good in retirement now. So what you've said, Lee, I mean, I think that probably gives you all of those things. I've been querying, I've been I've been reflecting on that, and I agree. But Lee, what would you when you're working at B and Q and someone says, what's your achievement been? What would be an what would be an achievement for you of B and Q?

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Well, what would be an achievement for me of being being Q? I mean, so we were doing something in the office today. We've just done a little bit of mental health kind of um well-being stuff today, and we've been looking at burnout. Um, and as part of a coping strategy for burnout, we were looking at um kind of um what how how was it phrased? Kind of the little small accomplishments that if you add them all together, you know, a penny a day kind of thing. Yeah, multiplying it. So for me, the the small achievements would be seeing the people that I currently watch go around B and Q and I try and help as a like a non-staff member who can't find or don't even know what they're looking for in terms of the right washer for a tap, um, or kind of the right kind of screw for a particular fixing and that sort of thing. So the little small achievements would be knowing that I've sent someone on their way better equipped to do a piece of DIY than that than they were when they came into the store. That for that for me would be kind of yeah, and I I I think I think I would revel in that personally. I mean, that does sound good.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Just check in on that. You hang around BQ looking to help people.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

I I do a lot of work at home, so I'm forever BQ is just a short drive for me. Um, I and I don't habitually go there just to stalk people in the aisles. I am there, I am there for a purpose, usually to buy timber or some such thing. But I do quite often find myself um voluntarily, whether they want me to or not, assisting. Well, I think that's charming. Why don't we just get you an overall and you could just do it now? And I looks I look so good in orange as well.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

So you talked actually, could we just because it's an IP podcast? Sure. Could we just take a step back for a minute? We were actually talking unusually for us about life after IP, but just out of interest, how long? So when you we we've all talked, we're talking about ages nice and openly today. So I think I can fairly ask you, when did you actually start in the profession? Uh I I started in the profession uh when most people started in the profession, I suppose. So I straight out of uh university into law school, so I qualified as a solicitor when I was twenty four.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

You wasn't sure what year that was? That was then you can work out my age, but that's absolutely fine. Um I've been 1994. Right. So I did 30 years. I worked 30 years and I retired. No, I must have been 26 because I retired at age 56. Oh, there you go. There we go. So that's that's the maths. I know that so you know, and you've you've explained very clearly about you know, you'll look about succession and leaving space for people following and so on.

Burnout Pressure And Working Longer

SPEAKER_02 20:50

But um Do you reckon that the the IP career is a particularly burnout y career? Is it particularly stressful? You're a litigator, of course, which is always a bit more high-powered. I certainly think it can be. I certainly think it can be. Uh, I think that there are uh you know certain types of work that are you know more likely to lead you into burnout, but I think it's fair to say that it can be stressful, it certainly can be very demanding, there's a lot of pressure involved, and I think that all of those things can can be quite um, I'm not gonna say overwhelming necessarily, but they can be sort of all-encompassing. I think that the the fact that we often have deadlines that um you know you have to work you have to you have to work to. Now I know that um patent attorneys have historically had longer deadlines, better I'm I'm gonna say, ability to plan for for deadlines than maybe IP litigators. Doesn't stop us going right up to the wire. Doesn't stop people going right up the w up to the wire. And it might be said that now that we have the the um the UPC and and uh other things happening, that actually the requirement for peace people to be available doing stuff as and when required has has only increased. Um and therefore there is significant kind of pressure on people to to perform and to perform at a high level, you know, all the time. Empirically, I'd say that uh in the patent to only profession, I think retirement ages are probably not often people that tend to run up to the mid-60s. I think maybe they'll a limited sample, but I feel like people tend to retire in their late 50s, maybe Lee. I don't know. You got a got a feeling on that from who you see?

SPEAKER_01 22:47

So I mean it's it's interesting, isn't it? So my perspective is obviously through the membership lens, and it doesn't seem to me as if pattern attorneys ever retire, retire. They may, they may kind of they may step away from practices where they kind of partner, managing partner, or such thing, but they tend to do some kind of consultancy type work. They they stay active. They may up their volunteering, so they may may do more for the profession in a voluntary capacity, and they seem to live a long life. So, you know, it's we we've got lots and lots of members who are into their 80s, into their 90s. So it seems to me to be a profession that carries on well into what we would consider to be perhaps a normal retirement age, not necessarily in that full-time capacity, but with some kind of um active interest. So patent attorneys never seem to never seem to retire.

SPEAKER_02 23:39

They just claim to. Thank you. Thank you. And that's certainly my my my experience of of uh, you know, I know a number of patent attorneys and um some who have retired. Uh I think that there is that uh perhaps that ability in the patent attorney profession. I'm not gonna say it's unique, but I think it's certainly there. There is that ability to continue to do patent attorney type work uh at a I'm going to say a lower level. I obviously mean, you know, it still is a high level, but for a for for less time, less amount of time. So you may be able to take up a role that in involves you know reduced working hours, and therefore you put that that patent attorney work into a portfolio of activities that you undertake during your retirement. And when I talk about retirement, I don't necessarily say I don't necessarily mean stopping work. It means different things to different people. For some people, it does, it absolutely means that. It means stopping work. But for others, people people who who who may not like the term, they may not want to use the term retirement, but they they do envisage a point at which they will step back from the full-time kind of role that they have had during their career. It may be to a part-time role that that uh that enables them to do some other things as well, or it may be to another sort of role that utilizes the skills that they have uh developed whilst they've been working as a IP lawyer or a you know, patent attorney or trademark attorney or whatever. And and actually that's a that's a very important part of the retirement planning exercise is identifying at least some activities. It doesn't need to be all the activities that you you do, but identifying some activities that are properly engaging. They involve the sorts of problem-solving skills that you have developed during your working life. Because when you undertake those kinds of activities, you do feel fulfilled, not least because that's what you've been doing for the last 30, 40 years. Not exactly the same kind of work, but with the same kind of outcomes and outputs. So it is important to focus on finding activities that do provide that sort of um feeling of engagement and problem solving um that then make you feel good about yourself. Yeah, and you you talked about identity and so that sense of identity. And it may be difficult for people to admit that what you've spent 30 or 40 years doing is part of your identity. It was more than just a job. It's actually I can imagine some people saying, right, stopping working now, I'm not defined by my job, I'm out of this. Whereas others are going to say, that's what I got good at. I was I really contributed there. Absolutely. So one of the things I I really wanted to highlight is as something that people, some people don't think about is what's known as role loss. Uh that identity change that comes when you stop doing the thing that you've been doing for the last 30, 40 years. The you know, your personal meaning and identity are really tied up in your work, what you've been doing for the last however long it may be. And the more involved you are or have been in your work role, the more likely you are to struggle with self-esteem and self-worth in retirement. Now that can lead some people to think, well, I just won't do it, I won't retire. They don't necessarily do that consciously, but subconsciously, you know, their whole identity and their, you know, who they are, their feeling of status is part of it, status is part of it. That is so much part of them, they don't want to, they don't want to lose it. And that and that can be a real issue for some people, not all, but some. Um, I actually was work, I've been working with somebody quite recently, and the first thing I asked him what he was hoping to get out of some retirement coaching with me, and he said, I'm really concerned about role loss and my identity after I stop doing this job. And I said, I said to him, that is incredibly self-aware for that to be the first thing that you are concerned about, because many people take it for granted. Uh, and it's only afterwards that that oh what oh you're retired. What did you used to do? Yeah, yeah, and and the impact that that can have on some people. Yeah. Some people delighted to stop having the role that they had before. But for many, and I would say, in particular, many in the IP profession, you know, people who've had those sorts of high-achieving, results-driven roles, you know, that's that step change from having the that role and the identity associated with it can be quite significant. It's not exactly all-consuming, but you can't dabble in this role. I think you have to get your head right into it, and you have to totally engage, but come back to your problem-solving thing, but you can't have to pay or put your attention into it. And I guess that means that you do get towards that slightly more all-consuming side of things. So if you've got somebody who maybe isn't ready for retirement yet, and maybe isn't ready for a retirement coach yet, but it's something to think, okay, I've only got five years, ten years to go. Um, is do you think they should be thinking how yeah, how early should you be thinking about it? I I would say that there is uh there's no there's no one size fit fits all for it. But ideally, I I would say that you need to be thinking about it at least three years out. And for some people, that's you know, that that feels absolutely okay. For others, you know, that feels too soon. Um, but I but I also I I think about it from the context of you know the business as well. You know, if you're working in a you know firm of patent attorneys and you've got long-standing client relationships and uh and and you know all all the things around succession and succession and transition. But as a I'm going to say as a as somebody who is invested in in all of that, um, in particular if you're a partner in a in a firm, you know, it's your your business as well. But actually thinking about some of those things three years out, some people might say, well, that's that's a bit late, isn't it? Really, for long-standing client relationships. But anyway, uh that's that that also plays into the the timing. The other thing is that once you start thinking about it, you may start to kind of challenge your own assumptions. You may have thought at some point, well, I will retire at 60. Start thinking about it then at 57. And you start thinking about it at 57 and think, actually, now I've thought about it, not sure I really want to go on to 60. I think I'm I'm feeling like I might like to retire a bit sooner than that, maybe another year, you know. So so once you start thinking about it, you can then start to actually really process what retirement might look like for you, and make a, I'm not gonna say make a plan, but certainly have some clearer intentions around what you might like to do and what that that retirement transition might look like.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Can I

The Three R’s Of Transition

SPEAKER_01 31:37

can I ask a family question? Is that of course you can. So um, as Gwynam knows, a bit like him, got quite a large family, Rob. So I've I've got six children, they're all adults. Uh, I've got seven grandchildren, only three of my kids have started to produce. So I'm probably gonna have 15, 18 grandchildren by the time I get near my potential retirement age. So a big part of me thinks, oh, that's great, isn't it? I'll be able to spend a lot more time doing family stuff than that. And then another part of me thinks they might not want me. They might not want grand granddad using them as a kind of like a substitute for what used to fill his life when he wasn't around. Um, so is there that tension between the kind of the expectation of a significant improvement in family life and the reality, which is actually, yeah, no one's got time for granddad.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Yes, it's it's another one of the the things that uh I would highlight in addition to role loss. So I I put I wrote my three R's for, I mean, there are lots of things that people might not think about or don't think uh enough about, but role loss is one, relationships is the second one, and by that I I would inc I I would in particular have in mind, you know, uh life partner, children, grandchildren, you know, relationships with your nearest and dearest. Communication is absolutely key. And the number of people who do not communicate or do not communicate early enough with their life partner, children if they're old enough to, you know, be communicate, you know, to communicate with around this kind of thing. You know, that's really, really significant. You hit on something, you know. I I I spoke to somebody and they had said that they they had experienced, it wasn't them, it was a friend of theirs, that they that that they had thought that they would, when they retire, like to spend less time with their grandchildren. That actually they would then at that point have time to travel and do other things. And they used to do, you know, weekend things with the grandchildren, but we're thinking, well, I might travel some more and what have you. And of course, the children they had in mind that this person was gonna spend more time with the grandchildren. Uh, and apparently that is it caused some tension. Now, you know, that that's an example, but but clearly, if you can have sensible conversations uh early enough in the process uh of your transition or planned transition, then perhaps some of those issues can be flushed out and the rail relationship um relationship damage or fallout can be reduced. And and clearly, life partner is a very, very significant one. And and as part of my coaching, it's it's a it's a significant sort of module related to that that issue. And in particular, if you have a life partner who is younger than you, older than you, retired already, not yet retired, you know, these all play into uh what can be quite a you know significant change. But also, I mean you've you found yourself something, but I was going to ask about the coaching thing because you could we've never we've never even done a session on coaching. I don't think actually, which is like a parallel topic to this.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

You enjoy it. That's something I mean, you know, this is something you've found would be funny enough. This is your purpose achievement, community direction kind of well, one of the enjoying coaching? I am. Um I I really enjoy it. And um I mean it might be said that actually this this this retirement coaching, there's there's a certain amount of mentoring involved. It's not uh it's not necessarily that sort of conventional coaching. You know, my executive coaching uh course um taught me about uh you know conventional coaching models and techniques. Uh retirement coaching is a little bit different because um the people that uh uh I am dealing with don't have the same ability to reflect on their experiences in order to provide or come up with their own solutions to issues that they may be facing related to a change of role or or some other performance-related issue that they are uh seeking coaching for. And I'm gonna qualify that because I think it's it's worth just putting it in now, is that that is particularly the case for men, and particularly the case for men of I'm gonna say around our generation, because most of us have not had career breaks or significant career breaks, we've not had significant paternity leave, whereas a lot of women in the profession have had career breaks, maternity leave, they have had experience of role loss, identity change, even if it's only been for a uh you know a period of time, you know, six months, nine months, a year or what have you. Um but they have had some experience of that. Whereas I would say the majority of men of our generation have not. Right. So um that's sort of a there was a slight aside, but um I think that's also related to the the coaching, mentoring side of it, is that actually a lot of a lot of a lot of people who are I'm gonna say take up retirement coaching are actually looking for some mentoring. They're looking to find out, well, what was your experience? And can you tell me about other people you've worked with and how they dealt with with this situation, or how did they manage that role loss, or what have you? So, but I do I do really, really enjoy it. I do really enjoy it, and I found it very, very satisfying. And in particular, I find it satisfying that men are willing to open up about stuff that perhaps they you know wouldn't normally talk about. Yeah, uh and being able to do that with somebody that is um independent, non-judgmental, but is able to be empathetic, uh, I think is uh yeah, it's something I find very rewarding. Okay, thank you. Lee, back to you.

SPEAKER_01 38:35

I think thanks, Gwillem. So I'm Rob, one of my jobs on the podcast is to keep an eye on the time, and I do know that Gwillam has a sort of a hard stop. So um we've got our 40 odd minutes or so in, which is really, really good. So first quit I have two questions. One is my little tangential question that I always do at the end. So buckle in, Gwillem. I've got one for you. But before that, is there anything that you're sat there thinking, oh, I haven't had the chance to say that, or I was expecting to be asked this. Is there anything on your list of things that you've not got through, Rob?

SPEAKER_02 39:03

I've I've only got I've got two very little things. One thing is related to the word retirement and what it means. We did touch on this sort of earlier on, but but you know, for some people, retirement, uh uh, you know, they think retirement, you know, implies you, you know, go you're all you're out to seed, you know, you're over the hill, you're finished, and and as a result, they don't like thinking about it because they don't want to think of themselves that way. And and and Gwillam may be able to relate to this, but I was in Spain recently and I I was saying, Oh, I do retirement coaching, and was trying to work out how to translate translate that. And the Spanish word for retirement is la jubilación. Wow, okay. I thought that was really quite interesting. That you know, in the Spanish language, yeah, it it clearly has a very positive feel to it, whereas a retirement doesn't have such a sort of positive feel to it. Anyway, so that was just one aside that I I learnt in Spain. I thought that was quite interesting. Another thing is somebody said to me, which is one of the people on the uh retirement coaching course I did was that in relation to finding engaging activities, we need to be a human being rather than human doing. And and and I I thought that was quite nice because I think that actually quite a lot of what we do when we are working is human doing. And retirement does give you, I think, more of an opportunity to be human being. So that's a little just something that I I picked up on. And then the third thing was I talked about role loss being something people don't think about, relationships. Oh, third R, yeah, what third R. The third R is reorientation. So there's a model of retirement um that was developed like 30 years ago, and I won't get into it in it, but one of the sort of stages of retirement or the retirement process is uh reorientation. So, as I said, people quite often think about the honeymoon phase. Some people think more broadly, they think a bit more sort of short-term, medium term, long-term. But most people don't think medium and long term, they they think more short term, and it is uh usual or not unusual for people to go through a period of reorientation. They've they've done some of the things that they thought were going to be fulfilling, satisfying, provide them with a sense of purpose, all of these things. And then they actually realize, may not realize that they may, they may, um, their health may dec decline, there may be some change in their circumstances, but they come to a point where they've actually got to readjust and and make some changes and do some different things. So it's not necessarily the case that you can plan for what those changes and adjustments will will need to be, but actually having in mind that you more than likely will need to make some adjustments to reorientate yourself at some point post you know the retirement event, at least if you have you're aware that that's something you will need to do. When you need to do it, it it's perhaps less of a an impact. Yeah, as you say, a lot of people have never had a more than a few weeks off maximum ever. So suddenly you're you're gonna change very quickly, I imagine, when it lands. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Oh Rob, thank you so much for coming on. It was um so this is one of those conversations where you never quite know where it's gonna go. And uh and it's all it's always gonna say for for people of a certain age, like me, it's always gonna touch a point of interest, isn't it? Because you know, I'm not yet at the stage where I'm starting to seriously think about retiring. But I do find myself myself on a bit of time off, did a bit of decorating at home over the last week or two. You do think, yeah, actually I could get used to this life. Um, but we all we do always finish the podcast if we can on some kind of tangential question.

Aging Lessons And Final Ask

SPEAKER_01 43:25

You get a chance to think a wee bit about this while Gwillam answers it first, okay? So um, so Guillem, it's um you can't escape the fact, can you, that retirement is uh kind of a feature of getting older. That doesn't mean to say you're old, but it is something that comes after a period of life, yeah? It comes after a period of being young. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was trying to think of a polite word of not say getting old. So what have you been surprised to learn about the process of aging that no one tells you when you're younger? Oh, it's the physical side of it.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

Um, it's I try, as you know, try and keep myself quite fit. But the the incipient frailty that things that you used to think were really simple and easy to do, you get a bit scared of. Like simple example, I used to love vaulting over stuff. And recently I've relearned how to do it, and I immediately felt much younger. Although embarrassingly, I was basically showing off to somebody, try to vault over something that turned out to be a hinged cake and landed on the floor looking like a complete idiot. But anyway, yeah, I think that's what's been really surprising is how your physical confidence is tied up with your sense of youth. And you can do a lot about it. But it's been really interesting to see, gosh, you know, there is really simple things now that I just used to do without thinking. And now I'm scared of them. And there's an immediate sense of age around that. There you go. That's my answer.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Yeah, good one. Um, Rob, how about you?

SPEAKER_02 44:48

Well, I'm gonna it's sort of related, um, but actually it's it's you know, Gillam's focused on the physical side, but actually it's the realization that you you you are not able to perform in the kind of you know problem-solving work-related environment at the level that you used to be able to, maybe 15 years previously, and that there are other people who are able to perform at that level.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

So it's sort of related, um, um, but but that kind of realization that yeah, you're not you're not quite on it in the way that you were um uh you know 10 years ago. And and I think what's what can be problematic for people in the in this sort of retirement context is when you still think that you can. Um so actually, I think it's not only uh something that that happens and and and can be, you know, I'm not gonna say distressing, but when you appreciate it, you can become you you appreciate that you are getting older. But actually appreciating that that that's not that's not you know the end of the world. The fact that that's happening means that um actually there may be other opportunities for you that don't require you to perform at the level that you used to when you were you know working at uh uh 100% and at 100 miles an hour. What have you got?

SPEAKER_01 46:25

So um I yeah, I did have an answer, but I can't remember it. I think I've worked it out. That was quite cute, wasn't it? But no, so for me, I I I mean I connect with both of those, and probably Gwilla knows that I'm quite an avid squash player in that. So the physical recovery thing has been something that you know I used to play, I used to play squash forever and ever and ever. Um, and I just can't do it anymore. I don't have I don't have the endurance, but also it takes me a long time to recover. So I won't go, I won't go for the physical side of it. Um let's go for hair, okay? Hair migrates, it's moved, it's moved from some parts of my body where I was quite happy for it to be. For example, my lower legs. Yeah, used to have quite a lot of hair in the kind of like the lower leg area. Now now it all seems to now it all seems to be in my nose and in my ears. And it's like, why? Why has it travelled from one part of my body to another? Hair. The movement of hair, migration. I should be checking my calves. How do you got hairy calves?

SPEAKER_02 47:21

No. Okay, there you go. So the Rob's in your world, I got hairy calves. Um actually on hair. Um my chest hair has gone white, and that really irritates me. Makes it feel really kind of oh wispy. Wispy. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

Ah, these biggest, I concur. As you know what, I've gone grey in this badger band round my kind of uh eyebrows and side ease. So it's the rest of the hair is fine, but I think I have this like white band as if I'm wearing a kind of uh Badger bones.

SPEAKER_03 47:52

Badger bones.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Oh Rob, thank you so much for coming on. It's been an absolute delight. Grillum, as ever, really good to see you again. Uh, just a little shout out to all of our many, many listeners. If they leave us a little review somewhere when they've listened to a podcast and they've enjoyed it, it does help other people find us. And uh Gwillam, I will see you on the next one, mate. Looking forward to it, Lee. Thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

Thank you.