Second Serve Tennis

Self-Rates: What You Need to Know

ā€¢ Second Serve with Carolyn Roach & Erin Conigliaro ā€¢ Episode 264

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Ever wondered how self-rating works in USTA tennis?   šŸŽ¾ 

We were thrilled to speak to Jenifer Tucker about self rates. Jenifer is Vice President of the USTA Southern Board of Directors.  She also currently serves on the USTA Adult League Committee and Regulation Subcommittee and previously served on the USTA Constitution & Rules Committee.  

At the Southern sectional level, Jenifer most recently served as the chair of the USTA Southern Adult League Committee and was a member of that committee for five terms.  She is also the long-time chair of the USTA Southern League Grievance Committee.  A former USTA Arkansas president, she continues to serve on the USTA Arkansas Board as a past president and as chair of the USTA Arkansas Adult League and League Grievance committees.  

An attorney and resident of Fayetteville, Arkansas, Jenifer is involved in League tennis in Northwest Arkansas after serving as the areasā€™s local league coordinator for five years. She is also a 4.5 player!

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Carolyn:

Hi, this is Carolyn and I'm here with Erin and we are thrilled to interview Jenifer Tucker. Jenifer is Vice President of the USTA Southern Board Director. She also currently serves on the USTA Adult League Committee. She is the longtime chair of the USTA Southern League Grievance Committee. She was a former president of USTA Arkansas. She is an attorney and was a local league coordinator, and she is a 4-5 player. She's also on a bunch of other committees, but we don't have enough time to list them. So, Jenifer, thank you so much. We are so excited to interview you and let's start off and talk about self-rates. Can you talk a little bit about the process and appeals and anything we should know?

Jenifer:

So when you start the process of self-rating, you're either going to be coming in to leagues new or coming into leagues after you've set out for a while. So you're going to complete what's called a self-rate questionnaire and you're going to answer all those questions honestly and accurately, disclosing all of your experience, and then what those questions will do is to assign a minimum rating, and at that point, if you're not satisfied with what that assignment is, you can then do a self rate appeal. And what that is is that you literally just click the button after you have self rated and write down at that point it's your one shot everything that you think would be relevant as to why that minimum assignment isn't accurate. And the Southern Self-Rate Appeals Committee so volunteers, actual people will look at those decisions or look at those appeal reasons and make a decision as to whether your reasons are sufficient enough to really override that self-rate questionnaire.

Carolyn:

What if I'm the person that plays, the person that has a 4.0 self-rate? Can I then file a grievance? What can I do?

Jenifer:

So if you've gone through that process correctly and you've answered all those questions honestly and appropriately and you've gone through the appeal process and you're granted an appeal, then you've done what you're supposed to do. Now you may be able to be DQ'd dynamically, that is, by your play, which is the computer assessing whether you've hit the number of strikes for your dynamics. But in terms of anyone else complaining about you, the only sufficient real basis for a grievance would be a self-right grievance and you, carolyn, would basically file the grievance and say I played this player. I believe he played college tennis. He didn't disclose that college tennis on his self-rate questionnaire. Therefore I'm filing a grievance. But if he did file the, he did complete the self-rate questionnaire. Honestly, there would be no really basis to uphold that grievance.

Erin:

Okay, that explains a lot to me now because, for instance, we had a friend play a woman who was self-rated in tri-level this year which now tri-level counts towards ratings and she, they didn't get rocked but she clearly knew the woman wasn't at her correct. Well, she didn't think she was at her correct level. So she went to our state coordinator and our state coordinator came back and said she filled out. She did disclose that she played in college, and I think that's what when you said that. So it's not that she didn't disclose it or that she's just so good that she shouldn't be at that rating. If she didn't actually answer the questionnaire correctly. If she answered it correctly and the computer said you are a 3.5 or you are a 4.0, she's allowed to play at that level because she answered all the questions correctly. So it sounds like my friend just complaining to our state coordinator isn't good enough to get someone DQ'd, or you know, right in front of a board. Is that correct?

Jenifer:

There are basically two ways to get DQ'd, and what I call this is not a regulation language, this is my language. You can get DQ'd an objective way, which is the computer reviews will know your dynamic ratings after every match you play. So that is an objective way. In other words, there are no people involved. Or you can get disqualified by a grievance, and that would be if you didn't disclose something properly on your self-rate questionnaire. A player could file a grievance, or a coordinator could file a grievance and a committee at that point would then review whether you've answered those questions inappropriately, at which point you would be DQ'd. So one has to do with the computer or the other has to do with people, in terms of how you get DQ'd grievance versus dynamic DQ by a computer.

Erin:

So is that grievance committee? I just I picture it as like a panel of you sitting around like in a court of law. But so however many people that there are on that committee, does that mean that you guys have to almost investigate? Like, do you have to look to see, are they playing by their real name? Are they, did they play in college and they didn't disclose it? Like, do you have to do Google searches on people? How do you find that information out?

Jenifer:

So typically these NTRP grievances are coming to us at the Southern League Grievance Committee level by coordinators.

Jenifer:

So all NTRP grievances, these self-rate grievances, come directly to the Southern Adult League Grievance Committee. They're not heard locally and typically what will happen is a coordinator be it a local league coordinator or a state league coordinator will file those grievances and in those cases where coordinators are filing, they'll really provide most of the information that is necessary. So, for example, if a player has played in college and I'll make it easier, is playing at 3.0, and they're 27 years old and someone has heard that they've played Division I college tennis, at that point it's fairly easy to Google that person's name, see them on their college tennis roster. The coordinator will provide that link, will provide the self-rate questionnaire. Those are fairly straightforward and simple. Inc will provide the self-rate questionnaire. Those are fairly straightforward and simple. But yes, there are other times when maybe a captain has filed a grievance and there's some suspicion, but they may not have all the evidence necessary, at which point either coordinator or the committee or both will do a little bit further investigation.

Erin:

Google searching. Google searching.

Carolyn:

A lot of Google searching.

Erin:

Do you ever follow anyone out to the court and watch them play?

Jenifer:

Contrary to popular opinion, there's no eye test for these. These are going to be limited to whether a person completed that self-rate questionnaire appropriately.

Erin:

Okay. Has anyone sent in video of someone playing to prove their point?

Jenifer:

They've submitted it, but we've not reviewed it. We get pictures, we get YouTube videos, we get all sorts of evidence and again it's like the old verifier in terms of the rating. The ratings are not based upon the eye test or a pro's opinion, or a captain's opinion.

Carolyn:

And so just to reiterate, so that I have this correct, because people ask us questions, opinion. And so just to reiterate, so that I have this correct, because people ask us questions all the time, for me to get DQ'd, I'm a self rate, let's say I'm a three, oh self rate. For me to get DQ'd it can only be by the computer and then, or it can be where I lied when filling out the self rate form. That's basically it, that's right.

Jenifer:

That's, that's simplified, that's it. For example, I think the most common misconception is I can play a player next week and I get beat 6-0, 6-0. And I think to myself there is no way that player is rated X. I'm going to call my local league coordinator. The local league coordinator can do nothing about that. The coordinator, as Aaron mentioned, can look up and make sure those players have answered those questions appropriately. But, contrary to popular opinion, someone telling on you quote unquote is not going to get someone DQ'd unless a grievance is filed alleging that the person has not disclosed their experience appropriately.

Carolyn:

And this question kind of goes we're going to talk about urban legends in our next episode, but is it correct that from a computer perspective there has to be three strikes against you or three matches where you, I guess, score higher? I think this may be important for the self-rate episode too.

Jenifer:

Right. So when a player is self-rated, the player is assigned, a computer is going to come up with an expected outcome every time that player plays a match and it's not based upon a one loss record, but it's going to be an expected outcome. And every time that player plays a match a dynamic rating is going to be generated. That is a rating to the 100th of a point. And there is a threshold at every level under which a player, if he or she jumps above that, would receive what's called a strike. So if the player receives three strikes, which is going above that threshold three times after three matches, then they would be disqualified at that level. And that's not for computer rates at this point, it's only for self-rates.

Carolyn:

Is it for appeals too?

Jenifer:

Also for appeals Appeal-rated players.

Erin:

So are you saying that it does not go for? Like, if I'm a computer-rated 4-0, if I'm playing and I'm just rocking it, let's say, you know, spring's about to start and I'm just rocking it, I'm beating everybody 6-0, 6-0. Now, as a computer-rated 4-0, could I get disqualified?

Jenifer:

No, as a computer-rated player, you could not be disqualified during the season.

Erin:

You could be moved up or down at the end of the year, which would be a year-end rating. Good to know, but it's not going to happen. But I just you know, just in case.

Carolyn:

Not something we have to worry about.

Erin:

Okay. So, jennifer, you are not only on grievance committees, and on all types of committees from local to national. I'm sure you've had some crazy situations on the court, off the court, in the actual court of law. Can you give us something?

Jenifer:

Probably the craziest or funniest situations I can't talk about. Perhaps it would maybe give up the identity of the folks. But yeah, I think that, from the standpoint of what we may consider normal now, unfortunately might seem crazy to some, and that is we're seeing an increasing number of players create second USTA accounts to get a different rating. And not only is it a new regulation that a player can only have one USDA account, but it's also, for the for the last several years, in fact been a violation of the rules to create a second account just for the purposes of getting a different rating, which we've seen a fair amount of times.

Carolyn:

I just don't understand why people would do multiple accounts and try to get different ratings. That just seems so crazy to me.

Jenifer:

Yeah, I think, yeah, I, I, some of it's a head scratcher, I think.

Jenifer:

You know, sometimes players simply don't understand that, that you can't stay out for a while and come back at a lower level, and they just can't understand why, for example that, why they're put back at a lower level, and they just can't understand why, for example, why they're put back at the level that they left.

Jenifer:

And the reason is just, generally speaking, that self-rate is the rating that's assigned at that point and if you're really doing it correctly, you need to allow for improvement. So if I'm a new player, if I'm a player coming back to tennis and I was a 4.0 five years ago and I come back, the general player playing once or twice a week or three times a week is going to get back to that level at which they left degree or maybe not, can wrap their brain around that. And I think that's the thing that most people have to remember that certainly, when we've taken off, we don't come back at full strength that day, but, as we say, if we knock the rust off, we're going to come back and eventually get to the level that we left.

Erin:

Okay, now I have a real question, like a good question. So I don't know if people are cheating the system or what is happening, but for instance, there are sometimes teams and maybe people are just gobbling up a bunch of self-rates, but sometimes there are teams literally made up of all self-rates except for maybe a few. So are those people that are? I know we don't know if they're telling the truth or not, but are they really just coming into USTA, yeah? Or have they come back and they're like they don't come back as a self-rate, right? If they come back in after several years, they're still at the level that they were at when they left. But how are these teams like we'll call them super teams having so many self-rates? Like we know, there was a team at Nationals this year that was like 12 self-rates and two computer rated people, like 12 self-rates and two computer-rated people.

Jenifer:

So if you're sitting out for several years and you've had a computer rating, you would come back as a self-rate, because the computer ratings are only valid for two or three years depending. And so what would happen is you would complete that self-rate questionnaire and you would get the last rating that you left, or maybe even a higher rating, depending on how you answered that self-rate questionnaire. But you would show up as a self-rate and there are a variety of reasons, certainly beginning teams. It's not uncommon to see 2.5 or 3.0 teams with complete rosters of self-rates. And it's not always even uncommon at higher levels. For example, you might have a 4.0 or 4.5 team full of 20-somethings who just came out of high school.

Jenifer:

So we're wanting to get them into league tennis, and so I think there's a misconception by many league players that if there's a team full of self-rates then there's something nefarious going on. We want to see new players come into league tennis and there may be an entire group of friends who are starting tennis together or starting league tennis together, who have had quite a bit of tennis experience. So it may not be limited to 2.5 or 3.0 teams. It could very well be 4.0 or 4.5. So I think it's an assumption that it's reasonable to think, maybe that there might be something amiss, but sometimes it's simply they're new to tennis or new to league tennis.

Erin:

That's actually a really good point, because when we see self-rates we think I mean a group of self-rates.

Carolyn:

We think sandbaggers, so that is a really good way of explaining it why that happens. And Jennifer, can you also tell us your most memorable moment on the court?

Jenifer:

Well, I mean, it may be boring to folks who have gone to national championships, but I started league tennis at a late age and my primary reason was that I played basketball and wanted some sort of team experience and it was all about team for me. So by far my most memorable experience was my first state championship and it was far more memorable, far more exciting for me than a tournament. The reason why I played league tennis, the reason why I think league tennis is the best recreational sport out there, is the team concept.

Carolyn:

I agree, and that's how I met Erin Exactly. Thanks to Jennifer for coming on the podcast. We have another episode with Jennifer where we discuss different urban legends we have heard, so we hope you listen to that one. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the court soon.