Second Serve Tennis

Advice for Combo or Playing Across Levels

• Second Serve with Carolyn Roach & Erin Conigliaro • Episode 279

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Do you ever have trouble playing people that hit with less pace? Why is it so difficult to play against lower rated players? Francie Barragan is here to give advice for playing combo or across different levels!

We are replaying a few of our most popular episodes and this was one of them!

Francie played college tennis for NC State and was the Assistant Coach for NC State after graduating. She was the Head Coach at Methodist University, the Director of Professional Tennis Management at Methodist University, the Director of Tennis at MacGregor Downs Country Club, and is a PTR & USPTA certified pro. She is currently the USTA Southern Manager of Coach Development and Training and the Tennis Service Representative for North Carolina.

She was inducted into Methodist University Athletics Hall of Fame, the Fayetteville, NC Sports Club Hall of Fame, named PTR Pro of year for NC, and received the USTA NC Lifetime Achievement award. 

Tennis is booming and needs more coaches! If you would like to learn to coach you can contact Francie at Barragan@sta.usta.com. 

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Carolyn:

Hi, this is Carolyn and I'm here with Erin, and we're really excited to have Francie Berrigan here with us. Francie played college tennis for NC State and was the assistant coach for NC State. After graduating, she's the head coach at Methodist University and the director of professional tennis management at Methodist University and also was the director of tennis at the McGregor Downs Country Club in Cary, north Carolina. Also was the director of tennis at the McGregor Downs Country Club in Cary, north Carolina. She was inducted into the Methodist University Athletics Hall of Fame, the Fayetteville North Carolina Sports Hall of Fame, and named the PTR Pro of the Year, and she also received the USTA North Carolina Lifetime Achievement Award. She is currently the USTA Southern Manager of Coach Development and Training and the Tennis Service Representative for North Carolina. So, erin, unlike us, she is definitely an expert.

Erin:

I read that bio when she sent it, but hearing it is even more impressive. Francie, so thanks for being with us.

Francie:

Thank you Really. It just means I'm old, I've done a lot of different things.

Erin:

Somehow you look much younger than I do, though, so I doubt it. That just means you've been playing tennis a very long time and didn't start as an adult like Carolyn and I.

Francie:

True, yes, I haven't played for a while.

Carolyn:

Yeah, since Francie has dealt with a lot of adult recreational players, she has received a number of questions about playing combo or about playing people at different levels. So, erin, can you start us off with the first question?

Erin:

Yeah, we wanted to talk about what we call the combo season In in our southern section. We do have players that listen from all over the country, but we know that a lot of players listen from the nine southern states that we're in, and so can you kind of explain? I know, when I first started in tennis and I heard about our ranking system and someone said I'm a two, five or I'm a three, five, or I a three, five or I'm a five, oh, or whatever, I was like I have no idea what that meant until I went through the self what's it called Self? Uh, self rating, self rating, thank you. I was like not self ranking, the self rating process. And then I was like, oh, okay, I'm a two, five based on this criteria.

Erin:

But then, when it came to combo season that same year because I started in the summer, in our area we do combo season in the fall and so when people were like, oh, I'm playing on a 5-5 team or a 6-5 team, I'm like, oh my gosh, they're really, really good, they're playing like pro tennis. And then I realized and I want you to explain, it's actually the combination of the two players' rankings on the court, correct? So kind of explain the levels.

Francie:

So combo doubles in the Southern section does allow you to play with people that you wouldn't see throughout the year in your other leagues. So a 3-5 has some options. They can play 6-5 doubles, which is playing with the 3-0s, 7-5 doubles, playing with the 4-0s and you know one of the things we hear about leagues is oh, I play against the same players all the time. Combo doubles gives you a great opportunity to see some new faces and some new partners as well.

Erin:

Yeah, that's great. So I actually play. So Carol and I are both 4-0s, so I play 7-5 and 8-5. But tell us what it's like Like. I know you coach a lot, so give us what you're hearing from players and what their experiences are playing as a combo and the levels that they are and what they like to play, because I know we've talked about playing against lower level, higher level players, right.

Francie:

Can you explain that? Whether you're in the southern section or outside of our section, you know, I think there's tremendous benefits in playing with different skill levels. What I've seen in my personal experience in putting together league teams and encouraging people to play on leagues is that everybody wants to play up. We all want to play with that better player. You know, we're just hoping that better player invites us to the courts that day to hit with them. But when I start asking players to maybe play with lower level players, then I kind of get that Well, I've got a doctor's appointment, or you know I'm busy. I don't know, I can't make it that day, whatever.

Erin:

Every Tuesday in the fall, I'm booked. Every single one, yes.

Francie:

But there's benefits to playing with players that are both stronger than you and weaker than you. And one of the best stories I've heard recently a gentleman named Matt Knode who used to be the coach at Baylor University. He said, even at that level, you know, his players would complain when they went to the practice court and they were playing with a player that might be lower in the lineup than them. And he finally told the guys one day, you know, djokovic, alcaraz and Federer, those guys how often do they get to practice with someone that's better than them, or even play a match against someone that's better than them?

Carolyn:

Really, for some of those guys never.

Francie:

Yet are they getting worse? Because that's one of the points that players will make oh, I get worse when I play with lower-level players. Djokovic isn't getting worse last time I checked, no, so I thought that was. One thing I'd never thought about is if the higher level players can do that and benefit and put themselves in a situation to learn from every experience whether it's a better player or maybe not as good of a player then certainly we can at the recreational level as well started as a very beginner, never touched a racket, and I got invited onto a team and then, when combo season hit actually at the time there's also a 5-0 combo in our area which is basically just continuing your spring season with another 2-5.

Erin:

But man, did we win a lot at 5-0 and 5-5., but I also felt like I was asked to play on a little bit higher level teams than my skill set, and so when I got to that higher level, I paid it forward and I was willing to play on those 6-5, 5-5 and 6-5 teams because I feel like you know other people brought me along.

Francie:

I felt like I should, you know, kind of pay that back. I agree it is giving it back. It also is meeting new friends. So one thing as a teaching pro that maybe will save your listeners some money is when I teach every clinic, every private lesson. I started out and I asked the players what do you want to work on today? And half the time I just get a blank stare. They just kind of look at me like you're the pro, figure it out. But the other half of the time they usually have something in mind, and I'd say when they have something in mind, probably 80% of the time, it is something similar to.

Francie:

I played against a lobber the other day and I know I'm a better player than them, but they gave me no pace. Or maybe they hit a slice with no pace and I'm the 3-5 and they're a 3-0, but they just drove me crazy because they didn't give me anything to work with and before I knew it I had lost the match. And how do I beat those players that aren't giving me the pace I like and I'm not able to get in a rhythm, and I know I'm a stronger player, but I don't know how to win those matches, and so they come to the pros. They want lessons on it. Well, really that's good. The pros can give you a lot of good advice.

Francie:

But you can sign up for combo doubles and play against those lower rated players. You can ask the players at your club that might be a lower rated player that you know hit a lot of lobs, they might hit a lot of off pace slices and angles and they want to play with you. If you're a stronger player, so go up to them, ask to practice with them, ask to play with them. They'll make their day and you can learn how to beat those players. So when it comes time for league season, you're ready. You know the strategies that work for you and your game to beat those lobbers or those players that might not give you the pace, and I think that's a lot. Something that our players often don't think about is, you know, taking the initiative to invite those lower rated players to play with them, and how honored they'll be, but how you can tremendously benefit from it.

Erin:

I just learned that just now on this pod. I was today years old when I learned that. Because we always think, like you said, we go to a pro and ask how do we do that, how do we hit against someone with less pace? But you never. I have not thought about and I've practiced with a lot of players that are ranked lower than me, but I haven't thought about going out and literally like making an invite, a formal invite to practice with them, for me to practice against that kind of pace and for them to practice against mine.

Carolyn:

That's really good advice, Thank you, yeah, yeah, and I always liked playing down, because I know I played 5-5, 6-5, 7-5 and 8-5. I'm hopefully not going to be the worst one on the court, so it always gives me a little bit of like okay, today I'm. You know, I can try different things, yeah.

Francie:

I agree. That's why it's beneficial to play both up and down and at your skill level All three are important and really taking that approach of practicing at all different levels is going to help you in the long run tremendously.

Carolyn:

Yeah, do you have any strategies when we're playing people with less pace? It's not easy, is it?

Erin:

No, first of all, I only hit hard and harder. Francie, I know you haven't seen me play, but that's my game, right, carolyn? Yes, yes, hard and harder.

Francie:

There's nothing wrong with that, but it takes a lot of effort to generate your own pace. It's easier to use others' pace and, yes, it takes a lot of effort, it takes a lot of footwork. You have to make sure you're balanced, you're using your legs, you're using your core to generate that pace. You have to add the spin too, because the spin will give you that consistency.

Francie:

But I think the toughest thing when you're playing with someone that doesn't give you the pace you like is it gives you more time to think and, as we all know as tennis players, sometimes it's not great when we're thinking out there.

Francie:

And so when someone hits the ball hard, we don't have to think we're just using their pace against them. But suddenly, when we're given all that time, the key is to come up with your plan before the point starts and to stick with that plan, because you're going to be tempted to change. You know oh, I know that I planned on taking this ball out of the air, but this would be a great opportunity to hit the perfect drop shot when actually you're five feet behind the baseline and it's not the perfect opportunity, but your mind will play tricks with you if you have too much time on the tennis court. So, most importantly, if you take anything from this is, if you're playing against maybe a lower rated player that doesn't give you the pace you're used to is come up with that plan in advance and stick to it, and try not to make those last minute changes of your mind, because that's when the errors happen yeah, if they're a lobber.

Francie:

You know, the worst thing we can do is just try to blast the first ball for a winner, especially if you're 10 feet behind the baseline. You know we want to. I mean, we see that sitter coming and we want to just blast it, but that's probably not the best way to set up the point. So what we're going to do is we're going to first of all use our strength. So you know, if it is Erin, I think you said oops, so that means you like to hit the ball hard.

Erin:

I did. I said are you speaking directly to me If you like to hit it hard?

Francie:

you know, use your strengths, like I said earlier, but go for a bigger margin for error. Maybe you aim for the single sideline, because you do have to set up your point. Once you've worked that point, you've got your opponent in a defensive position, then look to move forward and hopefully put yourself in that winning position at the net. But if they're really lobbing and you can't attack they're pushing you way behind the baseline. The best strategy is to hit a few high, deep balls back. It might be heavy topspin balls, it might just be a true lob. Push them back as well. Once you push them back, you've got the open court to potentially hit angles, maybe even drop shots. You have time to take balls out of the air. But this is important If you're going to hit lobs and take balls out of the air, you've got to communicate to your partner in advance and tell them when we get in this lobbing rally, I need you to anticipate that a lob's coming back and cover your side.

Francie:

So when you're looking to take that ball out of the air, you would basically form a wall on the service line with your partner. You have to cover the lob and then, if that still isn't working, you can potentially draw them into the net. If they're one of those baseliners that never misses and just isn't giving you the pace, then maybe off the return serve, we use like an angle slice or just a shorter ball to pull them in, and then you can hit the ball hard. You have a target, you can drive it up the middle, you can do whatever you need to do to win the point once they're up there. Those are just a few ideas.

Erin:

I'm going back to so many matches that I lost, wishing that I had thought about these tactics.

Carolyn:

Yes, yes, right.

Erin:

Carolyn, yes, I'm literally like I'm thinking of players that play this way and I'm like, oh yeah, I thought I was gonna win that because she had no pace and I can hit hard and or whatever you know. But yeah, I wish I had had these tactics before.

Carolyn:

Yeah, exactly. Or they lob constantly and then I go okay, I know I should take it out of the air, yes, but then I'm not very good at taking it out of the air.

Francie:

Well, that's a hard shot to like. I said, the first key is that your partner's covering their side, or else we're going to get burned every time. The other thing is, if you're taking out of the air, if you've hit a lob and come in, they're back at the fence. So we don't have to be good, we don't have to blast that ball because they're right back there. So really, actually, sometimes that moderately paced volley, sometimes even a shank, a miss hit, works better than a powerful shot, because they're back at the fence already. So it doesn't have to be as good as we think in our minds that we have to have to make. And then one more tactic we talked about potentially having to hit some lobs back before we get the ball we want. I've found that if I lob over their net player's head, no one likes running for that ball.

Francie:

And then their net player is going to be just getting bored, switching and switching and never getting to hit the shot either. So that can frustrate them. And if you can frustrate a lobber then you deserve to win. I mean, then that matches yours if you have frustrated the lobber.

Erin:

Carolyn, I have a friend that she loves to get into a lob rally. She just will do it all day where I'm not that player. But I remember playing with her one time and she was hitting. And you know you can kind of almost talk to your partner when that's happening, because you're waiting for a lob to come back, you're hitting another lob and we had this conversation and she literally looked at me and she said I can do this all day. I have three daughters. She said I have the most amount of patience of anyone I know.

Francie:

So every time I get in that, I think of that. I think it's so funny. That's one way to get in your opponent's minds.

Carolyn:

Thanks very much to Francie for coming on the podcast. We have one more episode with Francie where she'll discuss some tactics for playing against higher level players, what to do if your opponents are only hitting it to the lower rated player and the craziest situation that ever happened to her on the court and involves yellow jackets. We hope you check out our website, which is SecondServePodcastcom. No-transcript.