Second Serve Tennis

Ratings Drama: Think Before You Click Appeal!

• Second Serve with Carolyn Roach & Erin Conigliaro • Episode 301

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About to smash that appeal button? Wait. We break down when appealing your USTA rating helps and when it backfires. Want wins or a label—what’s your play? Listen now and tell us where you stand.

We were thrilled to speak with Gin and get her advice. Gin is a remarkable tennis player who skyrocketed from a 3.5 to a 5.0 player in just three years and now coaches players.


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Carolyn:

Hi, this is Carolyn, and I'm here with Erin, and we're doing an emergency session with Gin. This was actually Gin's idea of whether you should appeal or not. Ratings just came out. So you guys go. What's going on? We're recording from our car. That's how much of an emergency. That's the most important thing is Erin and Gin are in Erin's car at their tennis club. At their tennis club, yes.

Erin:

Yes. Yeah, we just both just played. So we're We both just played. So we're a little, you know, whatever. We're just the tennis players for this podcast. But yeah, so we wanted to talk about ratings. Gin and I were on the phone this week. Um, she called me and was like, what did you think? You know, were there any surprises? There kind of weren't really at our club. There was one big surprise that someone that didn't bump and a couple that we thought would and didn't. Then we got off the phone and like five minutes later, Gin calls me back. She's like, oh my gosh. Um, all these people are like wondering if they should appeal right now. And she's trying to talk some off the ledge. And so that's why we wanted to talk about this. But tell us about a couple that got in contact with you specifically.

Carolyn:

Yeah, because Gin's a coach too, right? Gin coaches players as well. Coaches and plays. She started out as a three-five and she got bumped so many times to five. Oh, and we were laughing right before this started. This is her first year not getting bumped.

Erin:

Right. That's right.

Carolyn:

So are you okay, Gin?

Gin:

But but maybe this, I don't know, this may be a weird way to start it, but I did appeal. I tried to appeal. We're about to talk about appeals, and I did try uh a couple days ago to appeal down. From 5-0 to 4-5. Right.

Erin:

What happens if you had hit the button and then they were like, yes, you can be a 5-5?

Gin:

No, well, that's okay, let's talk about that first. Yeah, I don't know what the appeal process is like. So that's probably really good for people to know. So if you go on to your USTA um account, tennis link, I was able, it said, you know, appeal your rating. So I clicked that button and then it did ask me to clarify if I wanted to appeal or down. So it isn't, you know, you're not just gambling like what if they bump me down? Uh, you know, the you're asking for one specifically. So I clicked down and then appeal, and then it immediately, like, I mean, immediately popped up and said, you know, your request has been um denied, and you know, your previous rating was 5.0, your current rating is 5.0. And so it's it's pretty clear. Um, but for those who are thinking about it, that you do get to specify. Okay, that's good to know. Yeah, but uh, you know, I think what made me think about all this was um especially uh some of the players who are newer or two fives, three O's, and they're you know, they're automatically their mindset quickly is you know, we should appeal, we should be better, we should appeal to three-o. You know, that obviously in their minds, obviously that makes you that's just a good thing, you know, you'd rather be a three-o. And I think my thinking is just wait a second and and think through why. You know, let's talk about why, let's talk about the pros and cons, you know, let's talk about what that means. And one important thing is you cannot change it back. You know, if you appeal up, let's and let's just talk in this um example about a two-five. If you appeal up and you were granted a 3-0, you you cannot say, oh, you know what, I didn't think that through. I actually would rather go back. That they do not allow that. So um, you know, think this through. There is not a deadline, you know, you don't have to do it within 24 hours or 48 hours. Um, and so that's kind of what we're talking about now, is like, let's talk about the, you know, why would you, why wouldn't you?

Erin:

Um, yeah. Yeah, you might use lose out on some opportunities for some teams. So for instance, when I was a three-five, and I still think in in a lot of ways, three five is the sweet spot. And you know, that's for most of America, that's like even like your good, that's a good player. Like I remember when I was a two-five, I thought three fives were like, oh my gosh, like I would never get there. But that when I got there, that kind of was the sweet spot because as a three-five and as a strong three five, people want you on three five and four. Oh, you know, when you get to four. I'm a four-o now. I don't barely get asked to be on a four-five team, you know, and in the fall, and in the in combo season for us, which is fall, and it's different in other parts of the country. And Gin, I want you to talk about this too. As a four-o, I can play seven, five or eight, five. So I can either be on a court with a three-five or I can be on a court with a four-five, you know? And so it's like you have to really think through what I know it's an ego, you know, punch sometimes when you don't get the rating you think, but really, like Gin said, you really got to stop and think because you don't have a deadline to appeal. You can actually appeal all year if you want. But once you get that rating, like she said, you're kind of stuck with it.

Gin:

Yeah. And I do think that the combo was one of the things I pointed out to these ladies specifically that I was talking to. I said, look, you know, you can be a two-five that everybody's like clamoring for and like, oh my gosh, you know, she stayed a two five. Like, please get her, get her. Let's all we all want to play with her. Or and I'm not saying if you appealed and became a 3-0, people wouldn't but but it's a little less appealing. Now you've got to partner with a two-five, which is harder on the court. And and you know, we I mean, we've joke you've joked on your podcast before. I know, you know, y'all have talked about that year you bump, nobody wants you. Yeah, your phone isn't ringing. Yeah, and and I and I mean I'm facing this myself. You know, if I had if I'm because I'm sort of at that like four, five, five, oh, you know, conversation, and if I was a four-five, everybody, you know, would be wanting me.

Carolyn:

Your phone would be blowing up, Gin. Right, right.

Gin:

And you know, you're you've got all those sort of teams in our area, you know, we're able to play on teams like in a nearby um area as well. So you can be called to play on a carry team, and you know, I'd be wanted for all those teams, versus if you do at the higher level at the 5-0, you know, I'm kind of like, you know, yeah, we'll take her if we need somebody. Right. But it's not like everybody's like, oh, you know. So it these are just things you want to think about. You know, you definitely the combo and being a very strong at that level, in my opinion, is more fun and better than being able to say you're the higher level. Yeah.

Erin:

And it is, like I said, it's an ego thing. Like I, you know, a lot of people really want to get to a certain level and they've worked really hard for that. But unless you're rushing your tennis for some reason, you know, like if you're at an age that, like, oh, if I don't get to four or five now, I'm never gonna get there. Or, but if not, like it's such a long journey that yeah, I would I I loved to have my phone ringing and people are like, Why can't why won't you be on my team? Why'd you commit to that team? You know, now they're just like, now it's like uh someone asked me yesterday, they were like, Oh, you know, what happened with you with ratings? And I was like, I am very middle of the road. I'm not going up or down. So no, nobody's worried about me, you know, nobody's calling me to make sure I'm on a certain team because they already know where I'm gonna be because that's where I was last year and that's where I was the year before.

Gin:

Yeah.

Erin:

Another thing is, you know, you get the A. Yeah, you get an appeal, you get an A next to your name.

Carolyn:

Yeah, let's talk about that. What does the A mean?

Erin:

Yeah. So someone actually texted me that yesterday and she did not know. Um, there was a woman who bumped herself up to 4.0 and she's now an A. And someone was like, What is that? So that it tells people all year that you've appealed your rating.

Carolyn:

Wait, she bumped up to get a 4.08?

Erin:

She went from a three, she got reclassified as a 3.5 and she bumped her, she hit the button, she wanted to be a 4-0. Um, and so now she's a 4-0-0 appeal. So I don't know.

Carolyn:

Yeah. That's interesting though, from a, you know, because normally people bump down. Like they want to play down to win. I have figured out or nationals.

Erin:

That's true, actually. That's a good point. But I actually heard from a guy this week that said he feels like women always want to appeal up and men always want to appeal down.

Gin:

Like I think it's about what the perspective is, and I think that's kind of why we're talking about this, is because I think if you're thinking about your ego and you're wanting to be able to say, I'm a 4.0 tennis player when you've been working for that, then I think those are the people who are appealing up. Um, but I think if you're have a mindset of like trying to have a successful team or hey, maybe win some tournaments, like you know, we're about to host a big um club tournament at our club. Um, and people had I was talking to another lady yesterday, and she was saying, I want to appeal up, but I really want to play. Um she's a 3-0, so she wants to play in the 3-0 group to have a better chance of winning. And we actually have money at this tournament. Um, and I did say, well, play the tournament at 3-0 and then hit the appeal button. Right. Or just don't appeal, you know. So there can be. Don't tell the rest are at the end.

Erin:

We're playing for money, so we can I mean there's some money on the line.

Gin:

But you know, why not be again? It's about do you what is your goal? Do you want to win? Yeah. Is it more fun for you to go out there and be a strong player and win?

Erin:

And we had a friend, Carolyn and I got bumped the same year to 4-0 several years ago. And we had a friend that also got bumped our same year. She bumped herself. I mean, she she appealed because she really wanted to play 3-5 and she captains all the 3-5 teams. And it was more important for her to stay with all of her friends than to be, oh, and now I'm a four, I can say I'm a 4-0. She was like, I want to be with all the women that I've been playing with for years in love. So she actually bumped herself down.

Carolyn:

Yeah. But if you do have that appeal, then if how many matches? If you get above a certain rating, then all of a sudden you you're disqualified and you have to play up. So at least with if you bump yourself down and you have an A by your name, let's say that people are bumping themselves down and they have an A by their name, they can get disqualified if they play a couple matches, or let's say they bump down to 3-5, 3-5A. I play on my 3-5 team, but also my 4-0 team, I get a couple matches in, the computer can disqualify you. And now you're no longer can play on that 3-5 team.

Erin:

And that's a good point. And Gin made it earlier. You you, you know, at that point you have to think about the team too, because if you're, you know, if all of a sudden they're one player down and you know, I mean, that could make a difference for a team. I mean, sometimes one player makes a difference for a team. So yeah.

Gin:

I wonder why USTA has the appeal. You know, that would be an interesting question for me to even ask them. You know, if they're if their whole system is based on the computer rating and they're and they're classifying players, it's sort of like, why even offer this? Because it does introduce some confusion. Like, I mean, like you're talking about now, people can be disqualified. And um, it I don't know.

Erin:

I don't know that I even really Yeah, remember the the year, and I've said this, I'm sure, at least 20 times on this podcast already. But for anyone that hasn't heard it, um, the year Carolyn and I got bumped, I think we talked briefly, like, you know, what should we do? But I specifically said I'm not gonna appeal because I was the one that called USTA on someone else that had appealed. And I was like, how does she have this appealed rating? She was got bumped to 4-0, she's now a 3-5A, she kicked everybody's butt all season. And Carolyn tell our listeners when she finally got disqualified. Do you remember? At States. Like after she won 4-0 States as a 3-5. Then all of her matches got disqualified. So then I was like, well, did I win that match then? Because everything had a DQ next to it that she had played as a 3-5. But it didn't happen until after it didn't really matter for her, but it mattered for other people that that woman was playing on a team and kicking everybody's butt. So I didn't appeal my rating because I was like, well, I already called on someone else.

Gin:

So and I think there's a couple, you know, I don't want to give people a sort of a you should never appeal, you know. I think there probably are some scenarios where it makes sense. You know, perhaps your club has a policy like that you have to be a let's, you know, say 4-0 to be on this 4-0 team or a team, you know, and you those are all your friends, and you're like, look, these are my friends. I have to do this to be on the team. You know, I get that. And and then what you just brought up, Erin, there are put clubs, you know, of course too, who have you can't be in this clinic unless you um, you know, are a certain rating. So that's another conversation. It's like, I I get why you're doing that, but probably the other person people in that clinic are a little like you weren't really that rating, and you know, now we're hitting with you. So it's it's very um, it's a very complex decision.

Erin:

I think the point is like think about it. Don't just like immediately, and I'm sure now like this will come out, you know, hopefully this podcast will come out this week. But if people listen to this in the future, like you don't have to do it immediately. And even if you do it immediately because your ego's hurting, you're still gonna see that you're an appealed rating. So it doesn't matter if you do it the day ratings come out or a month from, you know, a month later, three months later, or whatever it is.

Carolyn:

So for my story, I um got bumped down this year. So I took a break from tennis with a health issue for a couple years. So I didn't play for two years, came back this spring, started playing at 4.0, got rocked. And so I feel like I'm now I'm a 3-5 C now, and I feel like I'm at the correct level. Now, I did appeal three times during the year. I appealed prior to starting spring, I appealed after spring. And then I even think I appealed before combo season, and it was denied each time. And so even this time, I thought, oh, I'll probably appeal right after ratings. But I didn't. I woke up and I was bumped down. And I think there is a little bit of like, oh, you know, you get bumped down. It it is kind of hard to be like, okay, let's go back out and play. Like you got to a certain level and now you need to play at a lower level. But I kind of feel like the computer's telling me where I'm supposed to be. Because of getting bumped down, I mean, I I've probably received 300 texts within the past. Not because I mean there was also like a reorganization of being on different teams. So it wasn't 300 different people trying to get me on teams, but it was just that now I'm on all these different teams. Now I can play 3-5. Now I can play 4-0. Now in a 7-5 combo, I'm the 3-5 and can play with a really good 4-0. So I'm actually really excited to see what happens.

Gin:

Yeah. I think to Carolyn's point, like that's something I would say to encourage people. If someone's listening to this and they did get bumped down, Carolyn wanted it, but maybe if someone didn't, or if it does hurt your ego, like people are, I mean, we've we've been talking about, you know, we have um one or two people that have bumped down um and are now eligible for, you know, one of our teams. And I mean, people are excited. Excited. You know, to them, you're like a rock star who was at that, you know, higher level, and now you're gonna be an a huge asset. So don't, you know, don't have your ego hurt too badly. Like embrace that new, like, okay, now, you know what? Now I'm not barely clinging on, stressing if I'm gonna get bumped down. Now I am a huge asset to these teams and probably even a leader, you know, someone who can be a leader. So I mean, you know, everyone like I just want to encourage people if that happens to you, like embrace that new role of being a really, really strong player at that new level and rock it, you know, like just enjoy it and enjoy being a really, really good person on the, you know, to play with. People will be excited to play with you. There, everybody's gonna want to be partnering with you. And, you know, so there's excitement to it too.

Erin:

Yeah.

Carolyn:

It's it's really hard though. I think it's really hard, especially as a two-five. Like when you're a two five and other people get bumped and you don't get bumped. I I can see where that is the I feel like that's the most difficult one.

Erin:

Well, I started well behind my friends, but I it actually encouraged me to work harder to get to their level as quick as I could, take a bunch of lessons, do a bunch of clinics, get out on the court as much as I could. So, yes, I agree with all that. I had to be on a team for at least a year or two without friends because and actually Gin did the same thing. When she got to our club, someone told her, like, hey, you know, this is the rating you should be. She put in her time with those different teams, and then, you know, we were able to form teams with our friends, you know. So it does, but yeah, I I it I agree with you though. It's like, you know, sometimes it might be a delay of what you want, but you'll get there, you know, if you work out it. That's right.

Carolyn:

To finish it off, should anyone appeal their rating? I would say no is advice, but I would have done it.

Gin:

Well, I think it means do you mean should anyone appeal, period? Because I think yes. Um, I think there are I I think appealing down, especially, you know, is is I would say there's a case for that. Appealing up, I'm gonna say no un unless there are very specific circumstances like your club won't let you plan a team unless and your all your friends are on it, or something like that. But otherwise, I would say I would say really, really think about I I would not advise appealing up. I'm gonna agree. That was the shortest answer you've ever given. I don't think you've ever yes. I don't think you've ever just said I agree and not talked anymore. I know it was killing me not to say anything else.

Carolyn:

Please let us know what you think about appealing a rating. Are you a hypocrite like me and would advise people not to appeal their ratings but would do it yourself? Or are you like Erin and Gin, where you think there's specific situations where you should appeal your rating? Also, let us know what you think after you place someone that has an A beside their name. You can message us on our website, which is secondservodcast.com, or contact us on any of our socials. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the court soon.