First or Second Serve?

Tired of awkward standoffs after a stray ball? Gin joins Carolyn and Erin to unpack the rule, the gray areas, and why “second serve only” might be best. Listen now—where do you stand?

If you would like to hear more about Gin's remarkable journey from a 3.5 self-rated player to an NTRP 5.0 in just three years please check out our previous episodes:

Gin's Journey from 3.5 to 5.0 - Part 1

Gin's Journey from 3.5 to 5.0 - Part 2

We would greatly appreciate a 5 star rating wherever you listen to podcasts!

Please contact us - 

Website: secondservepodcast.com
Instagram: secondservepodcast
Facebook: secondservepodcast     

Use our referral link to get a FREE Swing Stick ($100 value) with your first year of SwingVision Pro. The bundles are only $149.99 (previously $179.99). This is a limited time offer that you won't want to miss!  

We are excited to team up with Michelle from Tennis Warehouse and her "Talk Tennis" podcast to bring you a "TW Tip of the Week!" Use the code SECONDSERVE to get $20 off clearance apparel when you spend $100 or more.

Transcript

Meet Gin And The Debate

Carolyn 0:07

Hi, this is Carolyn, and I'm here with Erin. And Gin is back on the podcast. She started out as a 3-5. She was so good. She got bumped to a 5-0. And because of Gin, I've changed my mind on what you should do in a situation. And the situation is a ball rolls in the court between your first and second serve. Erin and I have talked about this numerous times on the podcast. And we have always said you give a first serve if this happens. That just, you know, it's the right thing to do. It makes everything easier. And Gin, I think what were you yelling at the podcast when you listened to us discuss this?

Gin 0:48

Or you were so upset by what Yeah, I I yes, I don't like it. I don't like, I don't like there's too much gray area to this.

The Case Against Free First Serves

Erin 0:55

And Carolyn doesn't like gray area. And I think that's why we said just make it a first serve. Like make it a rule, it's just a first serve. But so but Gin convinced us otherwise and well convinced Carolyn. And I wanna, I wanna hear the arguments.

Carolyn 1:07

Yeah, Gin. So t tell us, Gin, why you think it should be a second serve. Yes.

Gin 1:11

Well, I think I think that there's a lot of gray area went with it. And I think that there is games gamesmanship that people just naturally do. I think if you have a really strong server, then you're giving them a huge advantage to give them another first serve, you know. And I think people do watch for this and I think they take advantage of it. And I mean, I have seen people hit a first serve in the net and then, you know, maybe somehow the ball rolls over on the next court and they kind of look at the other court like, aren't you gonna toss it back? Like waiting and looking for that, looking for that extra serve. And, you know, I think I think maybe where I got you, Carolyn, was talking about basketball. You know, to me, you and I both play basketball. It's sort of like getting a first free throw again. Like if something happens in the game like that's chaos, and you're like, well, yeah, this guy, you know, the flow of his two free throws got disturbed. So give him a first free throw again. I'm like, what? No, no, no, no, no. He missed the first free throw. Same thing to me here. You know, the first serve was missed. You know, it's over, it's gone. And and I just think I think there's that the potential for gamesmanship. There is the potential for an extra unfair advantage for big servers. And and I just think it's so gray because I think there's different what what bothers one person doesn't bother the next. You know, then there's this whole like, well, she gave it to me, now I've got to give it to her. And then it just becomes like literally like the smallest, you know, someone sneezes and they look at you like, well, and it just it just I just think it's too gray.

Erin 2:40

Well, and I think the rule, even though it's a gray area, I think it's the opponent's discretion, but everyone has their own opinion on how much is too long or whatever. And I think that's the prop problem. It's like sometimes you're like, well, it took a long time to fetch the ball and to give it back, or sometimes it could be like thrown over really quickly. But if the rule is like you always get a first serve, then it's like, yeah, what Jin was saying is like, well, then there could be no time between, and then you just keep get to keep hitting a first serve all you want, you know, for as many times as it happens.

Reading The Code And Its Gray Areas

Carolyn 3:08

So you know, I didn't care what the rule was, I just wanted it consistent. And so I would say now after listening to Gin, you only get a second serve. Like, no matter what, no matter how long the time frame is, only second serves because then at least it's consistent match to match. Okay, but I think the reason people have trouble with is because the rule is confusing and it's not clear. So this is um page 41 of the code number 30. Delays during service. When the server's second service motion is interrupted by a ball coming onto the court, the server is entitled to two serves. So that's when somebody's actually serving, the ball's going, it's elect. You know, you're starting the point over. Now they go. And that's clear. We're good with that. Yeah, everybody's good with that. When there's a delay between the first and second serves, okay, here it is. It says the server gets one serve if the server was the cause of the delay. The server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the receiver or if there was outside interference. And then underneath that, it says the time it takes to clear a ball that comes onto the court between the first and second serves is not considered sufficient time to warrant the server receiving two serves unless this time is so prolonged as to constitute an interruption. The receiver is the judge of whether the delay is sufficiently prolonged to justify giving the server two serves. They need to take all that out.

Erin 4:36

That's that, yeah. I was like, hold on. Like I couldn't even process it. Oh, sorry. Was I reading it too fast? No, no, no, no, you weren't. No, I was processing. Yeah, but I'm gonna say something. I'm gonna read, like, say back what I think I heard of one, only one portion of it because that was way too long. So if I cause, if I'm the server and I'm in my if I'm in my second serve motion and something happens, I just get that's a let. I just get another second serve. Yeah, like after you've served it. Yes. But if I serve, if I'm the set server and I'm serving a second serve, but I've caused my own delay, yeah. Like what? Like the ball falls out of my hands?

Carolyn 5:08

Yeah, or maybe I need to my I need to change my sunglasses between my first and second.

Erin 5:12

I'm the cause. You're the cause. Yeah. I'm the problem. It's me.

Carolyn 5:15

Yeah, if not, you could always get first serves, right? I'd be like, oh, I gotta do my sunglasses first serves. Oh, I gotta get it. Oh, I see.

Gin 5:21

Or I think another example that would happen more often is you as the server go wait for the next court to give you a ball. Or you you are the one sort of like, well, let me get this ball. Let me, you know, you can't, you can't cause the delay.

Erin 5:33

It's like not being able to cause your own hindrance. Yeah, you can't hinder yourself. Yeah. So maybe that's the language it needs to say. No. No. No.

Carolyn 5:40

Okay. It needs to say second serve only. Yeah.

Gin 5:43

Between there is, yeah. Nope. No. No.

Erin 5:46

Okay, go, Gin.

Gin 5:47

Yeah, well, because it's still gray. Yeah. Even it's still gonna because even in what Carolyn said, it's the server to decide what is what constitutes, I can't remember now the language, but an unusual delay or something. The receiver, whatever the word. The receiver. Right, right. But even that is still going to be what you know, what bothers one person is is is gonna be different. And then there's gonna be all this annoyance because, well, I gave you one and now you're not gonna give me one. Well, I wasn't bothered and I didn't think it was long, and it's just, it's just too gray. You can't you can't govern that. You can't it and so again, I hate to keep using the basketball example, but like that, it's just once it's once that first serve is done, it's done.

Erin 6:27

So what happens if, and maybe this is not the gray area. I guess I guess this isn't the gray area because it's a disturbance from another court. But what if, you know how many times we play matches and we serve a first serve and then we're getting ready to sec to serve a second serve, but our first serve went to the court right next right next to us, right? And those people just pick up the ball and not even seeing where we are. Oftentimes what I do is I don't even look at them as a receiver or as a server. I'm like, I don't want that ball, don't throw me that ball. It's on your court, I'll get it later. You know, but sometimes people just do it anyway. So then is that does that here's the rule.

Examples, Etiquette, And Gamesmanship

Gin 6:58

This is what our new rule would be. If you have started your second serve motion, you would be entitled to a first serve. Yep, because then the point had started. And that's what Carolyn said. That's the rule. So you so if you had been in your second serve motion and then they toss the ball onto your court, you have to stop the point. Yeah. And so then it would be the whole point would start over. But that would be a less.

Carolyn 7:17

What if they that's different?

Gin 7:18

That's different than the delay between the first and second. Exactly. But if they toss it on when you can still stop and get it, you just got to deal with that.

Erin 7:27

Yes, you know, because I'm not actually in a service motion.

Gin 7:29

You did I mean it's someone is looking. And I'll tell you what I would do is I would say, Hey, thanks. Next time, please don't toss the ball on. You know, if I'm it look like I'm not ready because I I would like to serve my next ball. If you don't mind, just put it back at the back fence. You know, I I would say something nicely like that. But yeah, that would clear up the convention, right?

Erin 7:48

Yeah, but you know how many times people do that, and it's so annoying. Because oftentimes, like if I'm the receiver and it's you know, it's hit towards me, right? Because I'm receiving the ball, and then the ball goes to the court next to me, I'm still in my ready position, ready for them to serve their second serve, not for me to look over at the court, get the ball back, put it in my pocket, and then be like, all right, go get your set, you know, or or knowing that they're gonna, and I also try to not disturb their routine, right? So I'm literally standing in ready position to receive, and then someone on the court next to me is like hucking a ball back over, you know, our way.

Gin 8:21

So well, I think that needs to be, you know, part of the new um, you know, the Carolyn general way around this is that the the tennis etiquette is, you know, if a ball comes onto your court from the next court over, you know, you need to just put it look, you can look over there. And if no one is looking at you like, yeah, yeah, toss it to me, then just walk back to, you know, either near the bench where it can be, you know, near the bench, wherever it's gonna be where they can get it, uh back at the fence, whatever it is, that they can retrieve it, it's now their business, they can get it when they're ready. And that's that's now tennis etiquette is you don't, you know, you don't you'd never toss throw a ball at them when they're not ready and they don't look like they want it. Yeah.

Carolyn 8:58

Um, I think that's but I think people do need to be taught that because let me tell you, I've done that a number of times where the boss comes to me and then I'm like, hey, but I look at people first. I don't toss it without looking, but sometimes I do toss it to them and then I can see the awkward situation happen of whether there's a first serve or not. Well, and do you know why?

Gin 9:18

Do you know why this is? Is because the servers are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The servers like, yeah, and the returners are like, no, no, no, no, don't toss it. So that's the problem. Yeah. And that's what I'm talking about. About the like, so it's almost kind of like your club, you better be watching. Is my club serving or is my club receiving? And so it's just, it's this like whole, I mean, seriously, I think people do that, you know.

Erin 9:39

Like, I'm gonna book a court for my two really good friends, four of my really good friends next to a court that I have to win, right? And then I'm gonna say, when it looks like I need a first serve, you're gonna throw a ball in there. Yeah, and I'm gonna go, hey, hey.

Gin 9:51

Yeah, or if my team is serving, I'm always, oh, sorry, I didn't mean to toss, toss you, you know. But if my team's receiving, oh, that's like a brick, you know, that's like a steel chair. You're not getting things over here.

Erin 10:00

You're not getting that ball back. No, don't make eye contact with me, don't look at me.

Carolyn 10:05

But they need to change friend at court. Friend at court needs to just say if there's a delay between the first and second serve, sorry, you get one serve. It doesn't matter whether the receiver's the cause of the delay, it doesn't matter anything because then there's too much gray area. It needs to be one serve no matter what.

Erin 10:22

Okay, I have a hand on the case. Okay, why is that? Carolyn can, actually, one of our friends. The delay was so long, they had a conversation with a court next to them.

Clarifying Let vs Delay Scenarios

Carolyn 10:31

This rule, the way it's written, yes, still well, well, it says the server, the way it's written is the server gets two serves if the delay was caused by the receiver or if there was outside interference. So to me, this is why when we first started, I was like, the way the rule's written to me is a ball rolling into the court is outside interference. Like you didn't cause that ball to roll into the court, you should get a first serve. So that's the reason why I've always been like, even though they have that little paragraph saying, hey, the time it takes for a ball to roll in and go out is not sufficient to give a first serve. I mean, it's very confusing the way it's written versus it just needs to say you're not entitled to flow between your first and second serve. No matter what happens, you only get a second serve.

Gin 11:22

Because I mean, it's like, where is the line? Yeah. Are you entitled to flow between 15 love and 15 all? You know, are you entitled to flow in a game? Are you entitled to No? You know, we're never entitled to a flow. You know, like if there's a bother between fit, you know, a point, do you should you go back to the beginning of that game? No. You know, it it's it's I don't like the way that point happened. It's happened. It it someone threw the ball up, tried to hit it over the net, and they did not succeed to get it in the box. It happened. Like it is over.

Erin 11:54

So maybe that's the language. The language is entitled to.

Carolyn 11:57

Yeah, or maybe you're never entitled to uh if there's a delay, no matter what happens, there's a rainstorm, somebody comes over and talks to you. It doesn't matter. It just to make it easy. Now, do I think people can get first serves? I've always given first serves. No matter what happens, if somebody coughs, I'll give a first serve. Um no, you will not. I do. I'm like, oh, did anything bother you? Did you sneeze? Did anything bother you? And to be honest, at my level, I haven't played too many people that are acing me constantly so that it's really that big of a deal. It may be more of a big deal for Gin, since she plays at the 5-0 level or playing mixed, that may be, or men's even, but like I'm not getting aced constantly. So I've always kind of been like first serve. And it's so hard. I mean, I we were talking about this right before we started. Gin, what would what do you do if somebody said gives you a first serve when a ball rolls in?

Gin 12:53

Yeah. Um, in in matches, you know, I sometimes will be like, okay, but in friendlies, I will say, no, no, no, no, no, you know, that's good. And then I typically will not even give myself the first serve, even if they say it and it seems like it's gonna be first serve. I'll just hit a what is considered to me a second safe serve. Um, just because I kind of I don't know, I just I don't like the whole thing. And so I kind of almost don't accept the first serve. Right.

Erin 13:15

She now she sticks by her own what she wants the world to be.

Gin 13:18

I'm also not acing people, Carolyn. So I guess you know, if I was that is probably when I have become the most passionate about this and when I've gotten the most irritated, is is playing Five O mixed. I mean, that's that's a different thing when you face a Five O guy serve. Um there are yeah, there are gonna be some each game that I don't get back. And that's sub you know, that's substantial if you're um facing a second serve that you have a much better chance to get back. And so yeah. So have you faced this situation in mix that you can think of?

Erin 13:49

Where like and you just didn't give a second serve. You're like, nope.

Gin 13:52

Did they ask for first? Did they ask? Men and men aren't gonna ask for uh uh no, uh they don't ask, but they will sort of look like, are you gonna give me one? And I'd I'm I'm not giving it. And the answer is no, Gin's like shaking her head. You're like no no. I have not faced like a huge disturbance. I probably would have given one if there was truly like a big something, but like I I am I'm not given one for like a bro ball rolling over or having to retrieve a, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I feel like that is a huge unfair advantage.

Carolyn 14:21

But I also think it's your expectation. So that's my issue with it, is that I don't care, even to this, like I think it's clearer if you only get a second serve. I wouldn't care. I I see Gin's point, but the problem I've always had is like it changed match to match. Like some opponents always gave first serves, some opponents wouldn't. And so it's just always this like awkward moment of is she gonna give it? Is she not? Was that long enough? And we all kind of stare at each other. And then if they've given it to me, I can never then be like, oh, second serve for you.

Erin 14:57

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. That's when it does get awkward because you're like, really? I gave you one when there wasn't even that long of a delay, and now you're being now, now all of a sudden I don't like you because you're not giving me the sample. Or I'm a jerk. I'm a jerk, and then there's a whole different mentality going on in my game, right? Because now I'm like, wow, I was really nice to that girl and she didn't give me a first service, or you know, whatever.

Mixed Doubles Power And Fairness

Carolyn 15:19

So you guys did the cutest video. It was um this or that, and this was at eight five states. Eight five. So these are four.

Erin 15:30

And our five-o.

Carolyn 15:30

Oh, and now oh, five. Oh, and she's a five. Oh, that's right. Because I played with a three-five. Well, she played with a three five.

Erin 15:35

Oh, so eight, five, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so we had a superstar three five.

Carolyn 15:39

There's five. There's a five-o lady and a three five. And they said if a ball rolls in between the first and second, do you give a first serve or not? And it was completely equal, right?

Erin 15:50

Split even, split split on, I think, of us, yeah, yeah. I think if we had had a debate about it, we could have convinced people one way or the other. But yeah, I mean, just I think that's what happens, right? It's 50% of the people on the court are gonna do it, and 50% aren't gonna do it.

Gin 16:03

And I think in fairness, probably some of those of us who went to know would sometimes reluctantly do it. But it's more we don't like the rule. We don't like this whole, you know, I think it's more about like nobody knows when to, when not to. So it's more that we're annoyed by it, I think. Uh probably. We're gonna redo that, this or that, and ask that question.

Erin 16:21

Yes. How annoyed are you by these rules?

Carolyn 16:23

Or change this rule. If you change the rule, I think everybody'd be fine with it. Um well, maybe not. Nobody, not ever. Well, everybody's gonna be happy. I feel like we're gonna get a lot of comments of well, they took a really long time or the receiver caused the delay. But I kind of feel like you just have to deal with that.

Gin 16:40

Mechanically, let's talk about mechanically. Your your second serve is its own motion. You know, it is not, you are not, you know, doing your first serve and then keeping your racket going and going into your second serve. You know, it is its own separate, you reset, you do your second serve. I mean, we need to be ready to do a second serve without I don't I don't understand it being seen as so can so connected. See, I thought we were entitled to flow.

Carolyn 17:05

I mean, there's nowhere in the rules that says that you um are, but I've always at 253035, I kind of have always felt like, oh, you don't want to take a big break between their first and second. Let's let them go. I kind of felt like you were entitled to flow. And Rebel Good told me he does the Court of Appeals column for um Tennis Magazine, or he did. And he was like, you're not entitled to flow. So that kind of changed my mind on that.

Erin 17:32

Do you think that you think that that you used to think that way, that you're you're entitled to flow because of watching pros? Because ours are not officiated matches, but what we watch on TV are officiated matches and they are kind of entitled to flow. In fact, they have like serve clocks and they have, you know, all that stuff. Do you think that you just thought that because you watched tennis or because you just thought it was a courtesy, like that was just part of it? I thought it was just part of it.

Carolyn 17:57

Maybe a little bit of both, Erin. I think so.

Erin 17:59

Yeah. You think it was just such a like nicer.

Carolyn 18:02

Yeah, at 2-5, we always did it. At 2-5 at 3-0.

Consistency Over Courtesy

Gin 18:06

I well, I think at 2-5 you're just so glad you get another serve. And everybody's like, yes, every let's let's all take, you know, let's all serve something. Yeah, yeah. I don't I just think I think that is a little bit of the mentality, but it becomes very different when it's um it's changing the outcome with all these first serves.

Carolyn 18:23

I have a question. I've never played 5-0 tennis. Jim, what have you found at 5-0? Have do people give first serves? Do they not? Not as much.

Gin 18:31

They're not as they're not as bothered by a ball rolling on uh over and it's less. I mean, that it will happen occasionally, but I find the threshold for like what's considered substantially bothersome or whatever the language is in the thing is is is much lower at the lower levels. You know, like you said, a sneeze might trigger a first serve. Um, whereas at 5-0, it's gotta be much bigger deal. You know, even a even a ball rolling over and somebody quickly hitting it back over, you know, we're not giving it typically.

Carolyn 19:00

Okay, how about you, Erin? Have you changed your mind? Are you gonna give Yeah?

Erin 19:04

No, I'm I'm actually with you guys. I I I do like rules too. I like it to just be one way or the other.

Carolyn 19:10

Yeah, but I think the rule should change because I think in a match I still will be like first serve, even though I agree which just because of the way the rule's written right now, or if they give it to me first, but I do agree it should be second only. I just think the rule needs to change.

Erin 19:26

It's funny, and we've changed over time, and that was thanks to Gin. Thanks, Gin.

Levels, Norms, And Thresholds

Gin 19:30

I think that's why y'all's podcast is titled Second Serve is like, you know, like we knew all along, some deep down somewhere y'all knew that like we were gonna do this episode. We should only give second serves. Only second serves, right? Y'all aren't called first serves.

Carolyn 19:45

Thanks again to Gin for coming on the podcast. Please let us know if you agree with Gin or if you've had any awkward or strange situations happen when deciding whether to give a first serve or second serve. We hope you check out our website, which Second surveycast.com. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the court soon.