USTA League Urban Legends

Jenifer Tucker returns to discuss tennis urban legends for USTA Leagues. We tackle misconceptions about lineup requirements, self-rate disqualifications, and the mysterious NTRP algorithm that determines your tennis rating.

You can learn more about ratings on the USTA website: NTRP Ratings Questions & Answers

Jenifer is Vice President of the USTA Southern Board of Directors.  She also currently serves on the USTA Adult League Committee and Regulation Subcommittee and previously served on the USTA Constitution & Rules Committee.  

At the Southern sectional level, Jenifer most recently served as the chair of the USTA Southern Adult League Committee and was a member of that committee for five terms.  She is also the long-time chair of the USTA Southern League Grievance Committee.  A former USTA Arkansas president, she continues to serve on the USTA Arkansas Board as a past president and as chair of the USTA Arkansas Adult League and League Grievance committees.  

An attorney and resident of Fayetteville, Arkansas, Jenifer is involved in League tennis in Northwest Arkansas after serving as the areas’s local league coordinator for five years. She is also a 4.5 player!

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Transcript

Introduction to Urban Legends with Jenifer Tucker

Carolyn 0:08

Hi, this is Carolyn and I'm here with Erin and we have Jenifer Tucker back on the podcast. She previously did an episode on self-rights, and we had so many more questions that we thought we'd do another episode on urban legends. Jenifer Tucker is vice president of the USTA Southern Board of Directors. She also currently serves on the USTA Adult League Committee. She was previously the president of USTA Arkansas, and she was a local league coordinator, a 4-5 player, and an attorney. We thought we'd do a few rapid fire questions on urban legends, we have heard. So, Erin, will you start with the first one?

Lineup Order & Strength Requirements

Erin 0:41

Okay, here's my first rapid fire question about an urban legend. In certain parts of the country, players are required to play straight up or order of strength. Is that true? That is false. Elaborate. Okay, I'll tell you why. Okay, so the reason I'm asking this question is because we play in North Carolina. We have a lot of players that come from the Northeast. And I've had players at our club say, you know, our number one doubles has to be the strongest team. And then it goes from number one doubles down to two, three, and singles are supposed to play strongest on one and strongest on two. In our area, we flip courts all the time based on who we're going to play. But some people have said, I heard it's a rule that you're supposed to play in order of strength.

Jenifer 1:29

Yeah, I think in certain areas of the country, you can certainly have traditions or you can certainly have uh groups of people who prefer doing it a certain way, but there cannot be any kind of rule in USGA league requiring any sort of order of strength lineup.

Carolyn 1:48

And we did a self-rate episode where we kind of discussed this, but I thought that was important to also include in our urban legends, which is you need three strikes as a self-rate or appeal to be dequeued.

Self-Rating Strikes and Disqualifications

Jenifer 1:59

That's actually true. Uh, as a self-rated player, you have to have a sufficient number of strikes to be disqualified. Uh, and that is when your dynamic rating or the rating to one hundredth of a point hits a certain threshold three different times as a self-rated player. You can also be disqualified through a self-rate grievance, but that would be specifically limited to whether you have an appropriately not disclose some of your tennis experience in your self-rate questionnaire. Can you tell us real quick, what is a strike? So dynamic ratings are hundredth to the hundredth of a point. So, for example, if you are 3.5, you have a dynamic rating of between 3.01 to 3.5. Every time you play another player, the computer is going to have an expected outcome of that match. So, for example, if a 3.01 a 3-5 player and a 3.49 a 3-5 player play each other, the expected outcome is 6060. For every game that differs, you may very well, for example, have the 3.49 player winning 6161, in which case that player's dynamic rating would actually go down. The 3.01 player would actually go up. So those are the general parameters. When a self-rated player generates a certain threshold above their assigned rating, they will get a strike. So three strikes means you're disqualified at that level.

Carolyn 3:41

Okay, that's great. I have another self-rate question as far as an urban legend. And I've always kind of noticed this myself, but I wanted to hear what you have to say. And that is you can't get DQ'd at the actual state championship, sectionals, or nationals. Like I've seen a lot of people, right, Erin, get DQ'd after the state championship, or they go to sectionals and they beat all these people. But like let's say you get your third strike at your very first match at the sectionals. Do you get DQ'd at that point or at the end of the tournament?

Jenifer 4:15

In Southern section, you would get disqualified at the conclusion of the championship and those matches would stand. But the national regs allow the sections to determine if they would prefer to run those calculations while in the championship.

Coaching Rules in Adult Rec Tennis

Erin 4:31

It would have helped me if people could get disqualified during the tournament because that happened to us, to Carolyn and I on our 3-5 team, right?

Carolyn 4:40

Yes. Yes. She got dequeued afterwards, but it would have been great if she got deque'd before the end of the state championship.

Jenifer 4:47

Before she beat us. I would say that you should submit a regulation change proposal, but probably not best justification to use your personal experience.

Carolyn 4:58

Okay, I have another one. If I beat a player 6-0-6-0, I should get bombed.

Jenifer 5:03

So I think part of the discussion when we talk about the ratings may have answered that. But again, each match that you play has an expected outcome. And to the extent that you do better or worse than that expected outcome, you're going to either raise or lower your dynamic rating. The fact of the matter is there are 50 different little ratings within each assigned rating. And some players are always supposed to lose those matches if they're at the lower end of that rating. So a 6-0, 6-0 loss or win should be ex maybe exactly what the computer projected.

Erin 5:42

It's funny, um, this was not on our list, but it makes me think there are a lot of people that believe if they play singles, it somehow helps their rating, right? So it's not necessarily that you're playing singles or you're playing doubles or, you know, you're it it really has to do with the computer. If I'm playing singles against Carolyn, if we didn't know each other, we're we're opponents, the computer still has an idea of what should happen in that match. It has nothing to do with, oh, because I'm on a singles court now, I have a better chance of getting bumped, correct?

Jenifer 6:14

That's right. I mean, the the it's going to be an expected outcome, but clearly to the extent that there's a difference because there's somebody else on the court that dynamic to consider. So singles, obviously, it's opponent versus opponent, whereas in a doubles match, all four players' dynamics will be considered. But that's that's the only difference. There's there will be an expected outcome in each case.

Erin 6:35

So I think this answers it. But one of the other questions further down on our list is if I play number one, like number one line, I will get bumped.

Jenifer 6:44

Yeah. Again, I think I think a lot of those urban legends are geared towards if this, then I get bumped. If this, then I don't get bumped. And the bottom line is I think if you just think about it in summary, as there is an expected outcome based upon the dynamic ratings of the players on the court. And if you beat or don't beat that expected outcome, you go up or down. And that's really all that affects that number.

Ratings Myths: Singles, College Players, Algorithms

Carolyn 7:09

The next one is if you play college tennis, you are automatically a 5-0. And I know that's wrong because I played some people that play college tennis and they were not a five-o.

Jenifer 7:20

On the Self Rate questionnaire, there are going to be minimum levels that are assigned to specific levels of experience, high school, and then drill down how much high school did you play? At what championship level did you play high school? And the same is true in college. Uh, what level of college did you play? So certainly there are going to be minimum assigned ratings based upon the experience, based upon the age. And then even though a rating may be assigned, for example, if my experience points to 5.0, I can still file a self-rate appeal. And if my section self-rate appeals committee grants my appeal to 4.5 from a 5.0, then that's a way I can legitimately get a different rating as well. So yeah, there are general rules and general guidelines in terms of what experience will yield a certain assignment of minimum rating, but there are a variety of factors in play as well as the ability to file a self-rate appeal.

Erin 8:13

So I used to think that any, like we've faced D1 college players before, but not college tennis players. I used to actually think if you were a D1 college player of some sport or pro, like we've actually interviewed pro professional athletes. Professional athletes, like in different sports, baseball, you know, whatever, that they had to come in at a certain rating. Is that incorrect?

Jenifer 8:39

Yeah, there's currently no question on the self-rate questionnaire that asks about college football, for example, or college basketball. Um, there are routinely high-level college athletes playing tennis. And it doesn't necessarily mean, because you may be an all-pro wide receiver, that you can hit a tennis ball well. So I think that's that's the reason. But no, there's there's currently no question on the self-rate questionnaire involving college sports other than racket sports.

Erin 9:04

So all those D1 volleyball players that I'm facing.

Carolyn 9:08

They're so good. They're so good.

Jenifer 9:10

Yeah, and when you have when you're playing a sport that has an element of hand-eye coordination, when you self-rate, the guidelines do say that you should be mindful of the the ability that you have based upon those sports and your ability and your probably capacity to improve. And then you should self-rate accordingly, but that's a should and not must. And so many players don't necessarily rate it allowing that time for improvement.

Carolyn 9:37

And this is kind of a follow-up question I did have real quick, which was it's your section that determines your appeal of your self-rate. So I go in, do my self-rate form. We live in the southern section, which is what what is it, Jenifer? 25% of adult players are in this section, but it's Southern that will determine whether or not the appeal gets approved. So everybody across the country that's listening, if they're not in the Southern section, their own section will do that. Is that correct?

Jenifer 10:03

That's right. Each section will have a committee or a group of people who will review those, those self-rate appeals. And in Southern, we have we have committees that do that.

Erin 10:14

Okay, last question about urban legends, even though we could talk all day about it. But are the third-party websites? There are multiple sites that maybe some of us crazy captains look at for people's dynamic ratings. Are those legit?

Jenifer 10:28

No. The um the NTRP Are you sure? They're not. The um USTA does not endorse uh NTRP ratings that are generated from any other third-party sites. The the third party websites cannot accurately recreate the algorithm. And as a result, we don't use those at all for any any USTA processes, including grievance processes.

Carolyn 10:51

So during your grievance, like when we file a grievance, we shouldn't say this person has a tennis record of something.

Jenifer 10:58

No, that's fake news.

Carolyn 11:03

Yeah. To me, this whole like algorithm, what what you know, your NTRP dynamic rating, it seems like something like something in a black box where, you know, like it seems so, you know, how can we learn more about it?

Jenifer 11:19

I think that the basic information that you're looking for is on the USTA website. There's an NTRP set of frequently asked questions that that give that give a fairly detailed amount of guidance. I I think maybe what players should remember is is just go out and play. There's really no players I know want so badly to know their rating to 100s, but I would ask to what end. Uh, but but there has to be some sort of algorithm and some sort of basis because our sport, our league tennis is based upon fair base play. And so many recreational sports are not. You could play in a, I'll just pick out a sport, kickball league, and I could walk on the court and never having played kickball and be playing a professional kickball player. So you we're really, we really work hard in league tennis to have fair base play. So there has to be a system, and I think this is the best system we have. And to the extent that players are trying to find out more and more and more information, I I again I would ask why and let's just go play.

Carolyn 12:21

Great answer. What do you think, Erin? Because we're crazy league players.

Erin 12:24

Exactly. No, and I I agree with that a hundred percent. I I get into the, you know, I want to know who we're facing and what their ratings are and where I should best put my players and all that stuff. But when it comes down to it, if you are in it for the reason which you should be, which is competitive but fun, um, and you have a sport and you're an adult um and you're outside or inside playing the sport of tennis, just enjoy it and don't try to overthink it. I just think a lot of us are a little type A and like to control it a little bit competitive. But yes, 100% you're there to have fun.

Third-Party Rating Sites and Final Thoughts

Jenifer 12:58

Yeah, it's it's a lot of fun to talk about. Uh, but but again, I think the USTA provides a fair amount of information on the website uh if folks will go to that, those frequently asked questions.

Erin 13:09

Then we wouldn't have so many urban legends if they did their if they did their homework. That's true.

Carolyn 13:15

We can't thank Jenifer enough for coming on the podcast. Jenifer did mention that some of the questions and answers in this episode are based on the southern section perspective, so that the processes and some regulations in other sections may be different in some instances. Let us know if anything is different in your section or if you've heard of any other urban legends because we would love to have Jenifer come back on the podcast to discuss them. We've included a link to USTA's NTRP ratings frequently asked questions. Thanks so much for listening and hope to see you on the court soon.