Discover the steadfast strategies to navigate through the stormy seas of tech markets with the insightful return of Jodi Keiger from Klue. Amidst economic ebbs and flows, we strip back to the bedrock of business basics, bolstering teams with the coaching and strategic acumen necessary to uncover growth opportunities masked as challenges. Leadership is put to the test when uncertainty looms; our enlightening discussion promises an arsenal of tactics for maintaining focus, instilling clear communication, and evading the snare of overextension.
Feel the pulse of uninterrupted time as a luxury rarely afforded to working mothers, a topic we unwrap with poignant stories of personal retreats that rejuvenate the spirit and rekindle the flames of youth and friendship. The grueling routine of caregiving contrasts sharply with the profound peace found in these moments of solitude. We also wrestle with the cultural tug of war between maximizing every minute and the art of satisficing, both in the care we provide and the projects we pursue, searching for that ever-elusive balance.
Spark your imagination and embrace the downtime you never knew you needed. When high achievers are confronted with the paradox of productivity, we reveal how true breakthroughs often spring from periods of rest. Through narratives that bind us, we contemplate the transformative impact of challenging conversations with friends like Jodi, who encourage us to question and broaden our perspectives, leading to a richer understanding of ourselves and the world around us. Join us for an episode that illuminates the path towards not only professional triumph but also personal fulfillment and connection.
Are you an executive, entrepreneur, or combat veteran looking to overcome subconscious blind spots and limiting messaging to unlock your highest performance? Feel free to reach out to Sean at Reload Coaching and Consulting.
Discover the steadfast strategies to navigate through the stormy seas of tech markets with the insightful return of Jodi Keiger from Klue. Amidst economic ebbs and flows, we strip back to the bedrock of business basics, bolstering teams with the coaching and strategic acumen necessary to uncover growth opportunities masked as challenges. Leadership is put to the test when uncertainty looms; our enlightening discussion promises an arsenal of tactics for maintaining focus, instilling clear communication, and evading the snare of overextension.
Feel the pulse of uninterrupted time as a luxury rarely afforded to working mothers, a topic we unwrap with poignant stories of personal retreats that rejuvenate the spirit and rekindle the flames of youth and friendship. The grueling routine of caregiving contrasts sharply with the profound peace found in these moments of solitude. We also wrestle with the cultural tug of war between maximizing every minute and the art of satisficing, both in the care we provide and the projects we pursue, searching for that ever-elusive balance.
Spark your imagination and embrace the downtime you never knew you needed. When high achievers are confronted with the paradox of productivity, we reveal how true breakthroughs often spring from periods of rest. Through narratives that bind us, we contemplate the transformative impact of challenging conversations with friends like Jodi, who encourage us to question and broaden our perspectives, leading to a richer understanding of ourselves and the world around us. Join us for an episode that illuminates the path towards not only professional triumph but also personal fulfillment and connection.
Are you an executive, entrepreneur, or combat veteran looking to overcome subconscious blind spots and limiting messaging to unlock your highest performance? Feel free to reach out to Sean at Reload Coaching and Consulting.
Welcome to the reload, where we help unconventional leaders craft the life they truly want by questioning the assumptions they have about how life works. My name is Sean and I'll be your host on this journey. As a performance coach and special operations combat veteran, I help high performing executives kick ass in their careers while connecting with deeply powerful insights that fuel their lives. Well, today we have a very special guest coming on, and not just special, because she is a guest and you are so used to just hearing me, but the amount of insight that she's able to bring and the experience that she has is quite profound.
Speaker 1:Our guest leads revenue enablement at Clue, as well as coaches, revenue leaders, teams and sellers on strategy and performance. With almost 20 years of leadership, sales coaching and enablement experience, she has a proven track record of delivering results in both large public companies and high growth SaaS environments. She is passionate about developing people, building teams and driving revenue in the tech sector. She is a PCC level coach, certified in team organizational and neuro leadership coaching, and she is the host of the winning as women podcast and has a monthly newsletter called Voices of Revenue. Please join me in welcoming Jodi Keiger.
Speaker 2:Thanks, sean. It's been almost two years since I've been here, so thank you for welcoming me back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know the absence is long overdue actually, and I think that's something that I would like to remedy in the future is to have you on more frequently If you're up for it. Obviously I know that you have a ton going on at Clue and I want to be respectful of your time, but I know that you always bring such poignant insight and the conversation that we had the other day when we reconnected just off the side really sort of reinforced that for me. So if you are willing to come on maybe a little bit more frequently, that would be fantastic, but no pressure.
Speaker 2:You know, sean, I didn't think that you'd be asking me to co-host, but if that's where you're going, no that sounds great.
Speaker 1:I'll send you a contract. You know we'll have a whole process, but just I don't know. Give us a little bit of a rundown, because the last time you were on the show was episode 93 and for those of you who especially those of you who are listening who are in the startup community definitely a worthy episode to go listen to, because Jodi operates in a very, very busy startup herself and was able to share a lot of insights in terms of some of the best practices that you've come across at Clue and have developed internally at Clue. And give us a quick I guess I don't know just a quick update on how things have been for you and for the organization and maybe some key insights that you've gained in the time that you've been off the show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know you're just you're making me think back. So the last time we spoke was March 2022.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm yeah, I think yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I was trying to think back where were we at in terms of the business of Clue, but also just the tech market in general and kind of the startup scene? And Clue is a series B funded company and at the time, we had just come off of one of our biggest years of growth in 2021, like many tech companies, and I was starting to feel and notice a bit of a slowdown. If I'm remembering back in that kind of by summer of 2022, it was like, oh, something's shifting here, and I know that, having sold through a couple of different downturns, that things ebb and flow, and I think the message to the team at the time because we have a large portion of our team who hasn't been through or sold through any type of downturn or market headwinds the message was very much okay, there's going to be light at the end of this tunnel. We're well funded, let's go, let's keep doing what we're doing. And you know what? It's been a really long tunnel, the long dark tunnel. Yeah, I mean 2023 wasn't much better for the tech scene. I mean other sectors are doing fine.
Speaker 2:I know that our word has been tossed out.
Speaker 2:I think we're looking and trending more positively now, but it has been one of the longest or hardest slogs, I would say, in my professional career in terms of just the market being tough and I think that that in terms of nuggets or things and insights that I'm taking away is that when times are good and things are and there's growth, you can get away with a lot, especially at an early stage company.
Speaker 2:That revenue coming in and that growth year over year can cover up a lot of I don't want to say mistakes, but it can cover a lot of holes that are like soft earth, almost like quicksand in areas, and as things get tougher you start to realize where some of those soft spots are and that might mean that your persona, that you're working with, shifts, or it might mean that you need to get tighter on your product market fit or that the org size that you are is no longer required and you kind of go back to fundamentals and go back to basics.
Speaker 2:And that's been really interesting as well is. I come from a revenue background of driving sales teams, driving sales myself and then having shifted over the last five or six years into coaching and revenue enablement and strategy performance planning, and it's been really interesting to think through what those fundamentals actually are, what actually matters and how to support the people as they're going through and making changes and decisions. That's been probably the most interesting part, because what when you're doing it yourself is one thing, and then guiding someone from the side is a totally different thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I find often that perspective where you're not I mean you're still obviously you are a part of Clue and a very intimate part of it, but I think there is a slight nuance there when you are not, I guess, let's say, directly in the line of fire, and I think that oftentimes your ability to see a wider field of view can increase when you don't have that pressure on you. I think that that's probably fairly self-explanatory. What have you noticed in terms of the difference in perspective from being the coach versus the sales leaders that you're coaching and the sales teams that you're working with? Do you notice the pressure hitting them differently and do you notice them I don't know potentially having less aperture to see opportunity or options that maybe you're able to see because you're not in that direct line of fire?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an interesting question. You know, the thing is, when you're doing something that's tough, you are, I think, actively trying to hold on and control and make the best decisions, you know, for you, for your team, for the broader organization. And so the teams that are in the trenches right now and doing the work and learning. They're learning really quickly, you know. They're getting, you know what might have taken someone, historically, five years of experience to gain. They're gaining that every year. They're making tough decisions and I think that that's the piece that folks sometimes forget is that everyone is doing the best they can and everyone is trying to get access to as much data as they can. They're trying to think through decisions, you know, the consequences of those decisions. They're trying to connect those dots.
Speaker 2:And the tricky part is is that working with humans and working in, you know, increasingly complex orgs and with increasingly complex data, you you can't always, you know, know and make the right decisions, and it takes time to connect those dots, particularly between different departments and teams. And so I think that that's the outside perspective that roles that span multiple departments can provide, and that the role that they play is that they're able to, you know, see the through line of connected dots may be a little bit easier, because you're speaking with, you know they say the head of marketing or the head of sales or the head of a customer success team or product, and you're looking at it and going, okay, you know, I see why you're developing the plan in this way and I see how that's best for your team. You know, and have you considered, or did you know, that someone over here is doing this? How is that going to impact things? And so I think it just provides that you know that you know one step removed vantage point allows you to start to see and not hold tightly, I think, to the the plans that you know I'm not making those plans necessarily, and so my, my grip is looser and I'm able to consider change and consider those intersection points maybe a little bit more openly than when I'm, you know, feeling the pressure of having to drive results, and once I've communicated something to teams, I don't want to necessarily go back on it every time.
Speaker 2:And so having the discipline to slow down decisions, having the discipline to speak to people, to review data, review historicals before making decisions, I think is something that more senior leaders do, and over time you become faster at it, at decision making. But that's the yeah, I think it's the vantage point of using teams, like you know, revenue operations or operations teams in general, let alone enablement or coaching. But yeah, those teams that span other teams.
Speaker 1:So then, on that note, you know whether it's a clue or an Apple or one of the other companies that you've been at what have you noticed in terms of you know how the best leaders are able to maintain their awareness that people are doing the best they can, yet still, that's still driving that performance edge, Right, and I think for you and I we both come, I think, with a similar orientation in terms of coaching, that we recognize that it's not just about KPIs and performance metrics, that there are human beings involved, right, and you just said as much, obviously. But what I'm curious about is when you've seen these different leaders and this may also be something that you've done when you were, you know, more in that hot seat role, because obviously your career is predominantly sales experience what have you noticed that the best leaders do to maintain that? I don't know that connection to humanity and that connection to an understanding that, yeah, people are doing their best and we still need to push, Like, how do they thread that needle?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, what I find is that the leaders that never get too far away from the job that actually needs to get done are the leaders that can hold the most empathy and garner the most respect from their teams.
Speaker 1:So tell me a little bit more about like, how does that play out? Do you have any stories or anecdotes that can sort of pepper in here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's that. You know, like I said, when times get tough and people haven't done things before, they're looking for their leader to, you know, actively participate in the work, right, they're not looking for them just to tell them how to do it or delegate something. They're actually looking for them to be there, do the work and learn from them or shadow them in the work. And so I think when you know times are tough and leaders want to lean into, you know, heightened accountability measures, where they often go is, you know, micromanaging and pushing and focusing on end results or outputs. And the mistake there is that you actually can't change the you know the end result or the output if you're not hyper focused on the input right.
Speaker 2:And so I think it's the leaders that get down at every single level within their organization and actually look at what needs to get done. What are those challenges? What are people experiencing? And you know, what would we, what can we do to solve them? Is it something that's really simple and really fundamental and they just maybe, you know, aren't you know? Are they, you know, not comfortable doing it yet? Is there a miss in messaging, et cetera? I think that's something that we've gotten a little bit better at and learned the hard way is.
Speaker 2:An example that comes to mind is that when we've rolled out some new initiatives in this last couple of years, we often have started with the selling side of the business in terms of driving demand and testing out new things. So, be it a new vertical or a new persona or a new message, we're often kind of spinning up the sales side and saying, okay, let's go out, let's prospect, let's get this going. You know, let's see if this works. And what we, you know, failed maybe to do and not because you know there's any ill intent, it's just you're moving so quickly and you're trying things and experimenting but what we've maybe failed to do is connect that, those dots and again that through line across different departments and step back and say, okay, if that's the, you know, if that's this, if there's, if this is the new message or this is the new persona, should it really start with sales or is it actually, you know, needing to start with product and research around? You know the jobs to be done within this certain persona that we're going after and, if it is, you know, determined that we should continue to develop our product in this way to support this.
Speaker 2:You know goal or this message, great, what's the marketing plan? You know what is demand, gen or content teams as an, as an engine, what are they doing ahead of the sales team coming in with a, with a target to hit around this new initiative. And I think we've been so gung-ho in and, like you know, and in many ways rightly so, like you have to take action. We've been so gung-ho and so excited about, you know, jumping into new things and you know, with the hopes of growth and it being a, you know a thing, a message, you know a vertical that's going to help us grow in these you know, more challenging economic times, that we haven't stepped back and connected those dots.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, as you were talking, the first thing that came to mind were the various startup clients that I've coached and the especially the ones that have, you know, some sort of private equity or venture backed funding. The pressure, especially sort of the year on year target pressure, is so pronounced and so omnipresent. You know, every time well, I mean not every time, but almost every time that we would get on for a session, you know, me and these particular clients it seemed like that was always sort of forefront of their minds, you know, especially because they were, they were typically at the sales end of the organization, and so the question that comes to mind immediately is how? How is a coach like? Imagine that you're working with one of these leaders, which I know you are, but we can keep it in the realm of the hypothetical if you want.
Speaker 1:But how do we help that type of leader that's facing that type of pressure? How do we help them on an individual level to not fall into this trap of micromanaging, because they're freaked out themselves? Right, and I mean most of the time when I've worked with clients in their micromanaging, it's because they're scared themselves and they're not sure what lever to pull, and so they're like trying to yank on all of them at the same time and I'm just curious, like from your coach's perspective, what do you think is useful for those individuals that are, you know, the leader of their department or whatever, and they're freaking out because they don't necessarily have an answer book either, but there's a lot of pressure to perform. Is there anything that you found useful for that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean. The thing that comes to mind is simplification and prioritization. I think that when you know when you're freaking out or you're under pressure, the you know if you're creative or innovative as a person and used to driving results, I think you often go in your mind towards okay, is there a better way, is there a different solution? And that's when you start to come up with new ideas. New ideas are great, you know, until they aren't, and when they aren't is when is because it's, you know it creates change.
Speaker 2:Every new idea and every new thing that you implement is change for your teams and People. You know we're not that great with change. You know we resist it, we avoid it, we tolerate it. Some of us, you know, embrace it right away or start to drive it, but it's a continuum right, and Every time that we again make a decision and we make a change, we're asking our people to believe, to buy in, to actually, you know, adjust something they're doing. Maybe they just got good at something, you know, and now we're asking them to shift it. That's a you know that's a tough place To be as an individual contributor or as a first-line manager when the ground beneath you is consistently shifting.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm right and I think that, like I said, every you know it's not out of ill intent, it's literally out of trying to problem solve an experiment. But what I you know, what I would do as a coach and what I probably have to remind myself, because I'm definitely a change monster. I love trying new things and experimenting and I kind of, you know, get off on change for sure, but I have to remind myself that it's the, you know, it's the, the boring and the simple, and the state and the true, and you know strategies that that win the race. And so, when you're under undue pressure or or due pressure, I think what's important for your teams is for you to take the time to gain clarity on what needs to get done.
Speaker 2:Where am I spreading myself to thin, you know? Am I across too much? So look at your you know. Look at again the personas that you're trying to serve or sell into. Are there too many? You know are there. Are you able to serve them? Well, you know, where could you pair that down?
Speaker 2:Similarly, segments you're selling into, like, do you really need to go after? You know SMB or growth, and you know a commercial or mid-market and an enterprise, where are you seeing the most traction? Similarly, verticals, you know, do I really need to expand into a net new vertical or a net new region right now? You know, am I doing too much? Am I asking too much with my teams? Because if I am, I'm spreading them too thin and we're not gonna see traction in the areas and the areas that were actually, you know, set up to win within.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so I think the answer to me when I, if I see someone in that space, or if I myself am operating in the you know change as a result of pressure Mindset, is to slow down, get really clear on what needs to get done and keep it super simple and then communicate that over and over again, like a you know PR machine with a megaphone. Folks aren't gonna hear or get it until probably, you know Basically, until you're bored with yourself from saying it again and again and again. That's when folks finally hear it mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So, with the leaders that you worked with across your career again, this doesn't have to be only from the time as a coach but have you found that there's been any one particular thing that has allowed the leader to stay connected to those kind of the meat and potatoes disciplined approach? Because, yeah, I agree, you know, like when I've seen people be really freaked out I Don't know if it's just human nature, but they do start to kind of like flail about for something different and I think oftentimes it's just the discomfort of Not knowing is, how long is this tunnel gonna be, to use the reference that you had earlier? So is there anything that you found that has been particularly helpful in in of allowing people to really just sort of tune into the discipline and, you know, stick to the message and stick to the sort of fundamental analysis of what's working, what's not working, and keep them from being flighty, for lack of a better phrase.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I Mean it's gonna sound really simple, but I think the the process of reflection and communication, those two things are so powerful in a leader's toolkit and we don't do enough of it. You know we spend so much time, you know, going over every type of you know, hairbrain scheme that we can around strategy and what could be. Or you know, spreadsheet, promises of performance, and If we don't take the time, you know, at the end of every month, at the end of every quarter, to check back in with you know how, how did we think we were gonna do, how did we do why? You know what were folks able and set up to know how to do it. Did they do it? Were they willing? And, if they were and they did, did it work? You know we have to check in on that execution.
Speaker 2:And then I think you know, once we, once we review those types of things, that we go back to the strategy and we say, okay, so this is the plan, what am I doing right now, you know, with my time or in different initiatives that aren't lining up to my top three objectives, you know, and where am I going outside of that?
Speaker 2:Where we what's, yeah, what's what's and it's okay, I think, to have experiments or bets on the side, but I think you need to be really clear about how the work that you're doing is rolling up to those top-level objectives in your business and when. I and I think one of the easiest ways to To vet that especially if you're not in a, you know, revenue Owning roll, where you have a number that you're measured against, but if you're in a supporting role I, like you know, market most marketing roles, you know product roles, engineering roles, enablement roles, etc. You're you need to be able to answer the question you know, what value am I adding? What am I actually contributing in terms of, in terms of my performance and so yeah, so I think it's it's simplifying down and going like what did I add and what's my role in Us achieving this objective? And then, what is like the top one to two to three maybe max Things that I need to be doing daily to ensure that this gets done.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, yeah, I liken that to you know, in a lot of the one-on-one engagements that I have with individuals and I guess also, you know, team engagements, this, this notion of reflection, and on an individual level, I think at this point, anyone that's had their ear tuned to the podcast space for any length of time or the blogosphere or whatever, is inundated with references to meditation, for instance, and what's funny for me is whether it's meditation or, you know, some of my clients are very religious and so they it takes more of the form of prayer or whether it's simply just, I Don't know, journaling, right, everyone always seems to acknowledge that it's such a powerful tool. And then, you know, a few weeks later, when they're starting to have like emotional outbursts because of the pressure they're feeling, or you know, there's some other less than desirable characteristic that's coming forward and I asked them how their various reflection activities have been going, they always say, oh, yeah, about that, well, I haven't been doing it. And and then, you know, and you know, we get to have a nice little laugh because it's like, okay, well, why'd you stop? And they always say, well, things were going so good I didn't think I needed it, and so we just end up on this hamster wheel or maybe not hamster wheel, mary go around where it's like they. They actually end up doing several cycles of Going off of their reflective practice, whether, again, whether it's a personal reflective practice or whether it's a team reflective practice or an organizational one I'm pretty agnostic there, but it's.
Speaker 1:How do we, how do we allow ourselves to take time away, how do we create space? And? And how many times do we need to just face, die right into the dirt Recognizing oh you know, things came off the rails again Because I wasn't doing this reflective practice before we start to really take it seriously and say, oh, this is actually the way that it's gonna get done from now on, like this is not a negotiable, this is not, this is not a thing I do when I feel like I have time for it. It's, it's going to be an entrenched part of the way that I live my life. And I'm just curious maybe in your own experience or things you've observed, have you ever Either felt or watched somebody go through that cycle of just kind of like face planting over and over again until they finally take it seriously?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I don't think you're human if you haven't gone through some, some version or another of that I I, yeah, I think that it's. I mean, when everything we're talking about here it's like building habits, you know, and you could talk about those in relationships to food, sleep, exercise, you know, work and broken down into, you know, like atomic habits. But I think that what we get, what we confuse ourselves with, is that we, we have initial motivation. We then Use that motivation to propel us into creating what we think is a habit, and the second that we start to feel solid in that we take our attention away from it and we just we assume that it's gonna happen, we don't attend to it and we fall off track and then, or we're looking for that motivation and that high and that you know, need that initially propelled us To do that thing, and that's not really there anymore and it's like, well, why am I not motivated? And why can't they do this? And or what, why don't I feel like I want to do this? And I think that that's like it's such a temporary thing, motivation Whereas discipline is really the the, you know the, I don't know characteristic, I don't know what is discipline, but it's like if that's, you know, discipline is the thing we need to create within ourselves and get comfortable, you know, knowing that it's not always going to feel exciting and motivating to do something, but that I know, and like you say, you face plant enough times and you go.
Speaker 2:No, I know that I, you know, just never feel good if I drink too much, eat too much, don't sleep, etc. And I know, like I was just in Mexico with some girlfriends for a week long trip and I'm an extrovert and you know we had there's 10 of us and we're all staying in one place together and probably day five I woke up and thought to myself oh my gosh, you know I'm getting enough sleep, but I'm not getting any downtime.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I won't naturally give myself that. That's something that you know. It's taken me into my 40s to realize that I actually need to give myself some space away, like literally not talking to people, otherwise I'll just go, go, go. And yeah, day five into this trip, I was like, oh my gosh, like why am I not feeling present with myself? Like, wow, I haven't had, I haven't given myself one moment. You know, I'm working out with everyone, eating with everyone, like everything I'm doing.
Speaker 2:I'm surrounded by people and people I love, but I didn't have that time to, you know, to actually appreciate the present moment, and for me, that requires me to be alone or have a little bit of a lone, you know, headspace. And so that's like another example of me, I think, falling on my face, and maybe five years ago, 10 years ago, I wouldn't even have realized that that was something that I was lacking or not giving myself or something I needed. And so I'm like, you know, maybe I'm a five out of 10 now in realizing halfway through the trip that I actually do need to make a change and shift my behavior. Otherwise I would have really come home and felt, you know, even though I had an amazing trip, I would have probably not felt as present, I wouldn't have felt as grateful, you know, in the time that I that I did spend there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean to be really honest to my listeners, many of whom are my clients, you know most of them, when they go on quote unquote vacation, they don't actually really take a vacation. Sure, they may meet up with the family for dinner, or they may have a day or two where they are going to do some sightseeing, but most of their vacations are filled with email hopping on calls. One client was particularly proud of himself because he was on the call but elected not to run the call, which I guess was a step in the right direction in terms of actually, you know, getting him to a place where he felt like he could take real time off. And but it's, you know, I mean, and I think all of us, because I was also in the corporate world for a number of years and definitely had my stint of 80 hour weeks, and you know we get into this cycle where it's like we cannot take time off. If I take time off, then then bad things will happen, right.
Speaker 1:And you know, I think one of the items that I'm really curious about with the trip that you went on to Mexico is where is it that we stand in our own way from an emotional or perhaps it's not emotional, maybe it's just an inner narrative that we're telling ourselves. And what are some of the things that you've seen Because I imagine that the girlfriends that you had with you in Mexico are probably also very high performing individuals and, you know, maybe you saw it in some of them as well like a I don't know some sort of message that they weren't really allowed to truly disconnect and to really then reconnect with themselves. And you know where do you think some of that narrative comes from?
Speaker 2:Where does it come from? I mean, where doesn't it come from? I think I mean, like in this particular trip and this friend group, you know, every one of us are mothers and most, you know, many, work as well outside of the home, and I think that the I mean first of all when you're, when you're a parent or if you're a caregiver, even you know, to a parent or to someone else in your life. There's there's so much going on in terms of that that it's just like it's never an off switch. You're always thinking about, you know, someone else, something else, the timing of something, and I think that was the first time, for you know many of us, where we, we were all away, for you know, eight or nine days together that we didn't have to take care of anyone, and like it was the strangest feeling in the world to not have to, and we actually had, like we didn't cook any of our meals, and so that was just such a treat too. It was the first time what we literally could feel like we were you know, these are long term friends and you felt like you were 18 again, you know, living in the dorms or something college because we didn't have to think about anything other than you know. Okay, do I want to eat? What do I want to drink? Do I want to lay in the sun? Should I read a book? Should I go in the pool? Should I go to the ocean? Like it wasn't.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was such a luxury and it wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't about other people, it was just kind of about us and the time that we wanted to maximize together and I think that that, you know, for some things I saw showing up on that trip with people were, you know, the need. I think the worries in terms of prepping for the trip was a really interesting one. You know, I had some friends who realized that, you know, maybe their kids are 10 or 12 years old and they realized that this would be the first time that their husbands were, you know, prepping their kids lunches ever, and like what had to get done. I had friends with binders like laminated spreadsheets of kids activities. One friend counted the amount of hours that she spends, you know, driving and attending her son's sporting activities in the week and I think it was like 40 or 50 hours a week.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:You know, and someone has to take that over when she's away and she works full time. You know, and these are people like she's getting up at four in the morning to you know work in a job that's based in Germany and she lives in, you know, on the West coast of North America. Right, like these are you, you and a. You know people laugh at or like, sometimes like look shocked at my schedule. But I often am up at four or five in the morning working for a couple of hours trying to squeeze a workout in, and then, you know, my work as a mom starts around.
Speaker 2:My kids are up at you know, six o'clock as well, but they will entertain themselves for the first hour and then by seven it's okay. You know breakfast and lunches and getting everything organized, kids to school, and then nine to one, let's say, is like another block of time for meetings, or, you know, for me to get things done. And then you know you're going and picking up one kid or the other kid and then it's after school activities trying to squeeze something in between, work wise, and then usually you're doing something at nighttime. But I also have to go to bed at you know, before 10pm, otherwise I can't get up the next morning at the time I need to. So you're, you're on such a schedule.
Speaker 1:I think, as a as a caregiver, that you don't have that time to like sit and relax, and you don't realize how much over functioning you're doing for other people in your life, in your life you know, yeah, so it makes me wonder then, because so I have a couple of friends and they live in Silicon Valley and Palo Alto and I have also watched them and you know I've had occasion to go visit them and stay at their place and kind of observe them in their native habitat, as it were, and it's shocking to me like, oh well, we're going to drive one kid to this thing for 45 minutes because all of their activities are sort of like micro sized for, I guess, the child's attention span or something, and and then they end up driving like their children all over like the area to multiple sort of bite sized events and everything is choreographed, everything is scheduled, even like play dates, and what's kind of shocking to me and maybe you know I'm probably dating myself here, but when I was a kid my parents didn't do half of that shit, like they were like what? No, like get on your bike, pedal your ass over there and like get it done, you know. And so to me there, and I know my friend grew up in the same way because he was one of the friends that I would get on my bike to go see, and so it creates this interesting juxtaposition, I guess, between what I remember from my childhood and then, and also if I talk to my parents these days, they're kind of like, yeah, that's pretty much how it was, like we were not going to take you to this thing and then that thing and then this other thing. And then you know, it's like you did one sport per season and if we went to a practice or a game it was going to be for that sport, not three sports, you know.
Speaker 1:And so I wonder if, on the subject of, you know, being a caregiver and also this sort of conjoined notion of guilt, guilt for taking time off, guilt for really what amounts to being selfish, but I don't mean selfish in some sort of toxic, narcissistic way, but like self care Right, I mean, we've had to, like relabel, I think, the concept into self care.
Speaker 1:But even there, like recognizing that we need time for sleep, we need time to for downtime, to connect with ourselves, that even there there's this like powerful driver of guilt, like it's like we're not maximizing every single second of the day, and I don't know, I can't help but wonder, you know, is there, is it time for us, as, as a global culture, to start to kind of like maybe pull back on that a little bit and say, hey, you know, maybe, maybe good enough, really is good enough and we don't need to maximize every opportunity. I don't know like what in your social circles, what do you see? Or at clue even, I know startups often have a kind of a push ball between optimization and just shipping, you know getting something out the door. So I don't know if you have any like insights on this con, this concept of this tug of war between maximizing and and satisfying, I guess, as some people call it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, if you find a, if you find the, the anecdote or cure for this, you let me know. Yeah, you're right, it's. I mean, everything is these bite size. You know chunks of time that you're trying to maximize for, be it young kids, the you know half an hour program you're kind of busting your butt trying to get to so for them to be there for 30 minutes, or at work, you know, you're, you're, you're looking at your meeting schedule and times and saying, okay, I know, to give me some time between, I'll book my meetings for 20 minutes instead of the 30,. You know, and I think we're always trying to to maximize and, and you know, be more efficient in that way.
Speaker 2:And I think that the, you know, the root of that is, for me at least, and in my experience, is I don't want to. You know, I don't want to miss out. You know we're social creatures and we have a social hierarchy and I think the fear is I don't want my kids to miss out, I don't want, you know, me to miss out on the opportunity, friendships, network, et cetera in the future. If you don't have and do you know this thing now, what does that mean for me? A little bit down the road. And so you do feel that pressure to maximize and maximize your, your time and use it effectively.
Speaker 2:And yet, you know, I think, that the more that we we study, you know, kids and our brains as humans, we learn that we need that. You know, that free time of you know, hop on your bike, do that thing, or for me at least, with my kids, it's like okay, no screen time. You know, if I'm not entertaining you like, I'm going to leave you alone for a little while. You, you know, figure out how to entertain yourself. And it's shocking, I can come upstairs to my playroom and my three and five year old are, you know, doing their own, completely separate or together, you know, imagination play and they're like so deep in it and excited in it, and I'm certain that that's stimulating some part of their brain that wouldn't be stimulated if it was me, you know, in my car once again transporting them to some prescribed activity or opportunity.
Speaker 1:It reminds me, gosh, there's too many years ago now, but I was listening to a podcast and the guest was discussing that his son had started to display signs of ADHD and he and his wife were really concerned and you know they were starting to think about, oh gosh, you know, like what testing does he need to go through in order for us to make sure that he's going to be able to, you know, be a functioning and integrated member of society? And et cetera, et cetera, and and then somehow and this is you know, I wish I could remember what episode this was but somehow he ended up kind of stumbling upon, just going into nature with his son and letting both of them be bored, meaning no devices, basically, and not coming with a book, or really just walking out into on a trail somewhere and just being. And it was interesting the observations that he made about his son and how his son started to differentiate independently when is there a time for frenetic activity, sort of like yay and party time and that kind of thing. And then can I then be still? And previously I think there was just so much stimulation in the kid's life that it was just always on, on, on, on on, and also this kind of jumping in these micro-sized bites from one event to the next or one scheduled thing to the next, and so it was interesting for me to kind of tuck that away.
Speaker 1:I guess in my member banks that here this father is trying to figure out oh my God, is my son, is my son going to need to be on medication, etc, etc. And it's like, well, now he just needs to be bored more. And what that allowed them to do then it's also to engage their own sense of imagination, as you were talking about with your kids. You know, where do we have that stillness? You know, and I think for my adult clients, reconnecting with imagination is something that is so lacking.
Speaker 1:You know, oftentimes the joy of life has slowly started to kind of get squeezed to the margins, because there's so much that the clients already know, because they are highly experienced people with a lot of expertise, but they're starting to miss the connection to the vitality of life. And where is it that we get to let our imagination really, truly run wild with no constraints of, oh, the board will never approve this or what have you? You know? And for me, sort of this aspect of okay, like, how do we not only inspire creativity for our children, but how do we reconnect to that deep sense of joyous creativity for ourselves? And I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:You know I do. I feel like I've lived some of that and I think I'm consistently, you know, reliving and relearning some of this, but the the connecting into my creativity myself. I grew up and I went to an art school and for high school.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I never knew this value.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fine art school. So I, you'd have a major and my two majors in eighth grade were art and dance, and then ninth grade is all dance all the time and you spend so much time before school, you know, during school, after school, dancing and choreographing and you know, etc. Practicing. And I, in that art school, I also was a kid who, you know, was obsessed with literature and poetry and I was reading all kinds of books on like. I remember reading, like you know, just books on meditation and life and religion and history, like way beyond and way earlier than I probably should have been, just because that was what was in my library at home or my parents library at home, and that creative side of me, you know, would allow me to like.
Speaker 2:When I went into university, I was in this honors English program and the first paper we were supposed to, you know, research, this, this really boring thing. And I remember, like reading through the text of this and just going like, oh my God, I cannot write an essay on this. And then it just like came to me that it was. It was like this, the same, the root of it was basically the same allegory that that Hotel California was, was basically based on. And so I ended up writing my whole paper basically about the like that song and about like the creation of that song and the intention and the meaning behind it Again like as a metaphor for for this other text or just relating to it. And I got you know my first A plus in university and that that side of me, like that creative you know writing poems, journaling side of myself, was something that when I graduated from university, I just like put it in a box. It was like, yeah, okay, now it's time for work.
Speaker 2:And I fell into a sales career and I feel like I literally woke up, I don't know almost 18 years later, 15 to 18 years later, on my first maternity leave. And that was the first time in my adult life and career life where I like life slowed down. I remember I worked right up until my due date and thought, well, that's, that blows up the quarter, great Good results. Head on mat leave to have this baby. Well, I was like almost two weeks overdue and I was sitting there for two weeks with no baby, nothing to do, nothing left to prepare, and I was literally bored to tears and I was.
Speaker 2:I just kept saying to my husband. What do I do, like? What do people do with their time? You know, I mean my God now, what I would give to have that feeling. But I, yeah, I, it was during that time, like then having having my first child and spending that year and in Canada, yeah you're, you know a year or 18 months that you're taking and spending that time. You know, seeing the world for the first time through this, you know baby and toddlers eyes, I started to like kind of refined that part of myself, like that creative, artistic side of myself that likes to write and likes to, you know, be expressive.
Speaker 2:And I signed up during my mat leave because you know I'm an achiever but, I, signed up for this, like all 10 BA program, which is like this Seth Godin program, and you know you get to meet people from all over the world and you're doing these. You know projects every single week group projects or solo projects and written things and submitting them and giving, giving and getting feedback and it was so invigorating to, you know, write and put my ideas and experiences out there and have others comment on them and start conversation from it. And I remember coming back into, or about to go back into my old job and I literally thought to myself like I can't.
Speaker 2:I literally can't do this anymore. Like I love sales, I love revenue and driving revenue, I love the, I love everything about sales, but I just like can't do this, this role anymore. I got to do something different and that literally led me to stopping what I was doing and, you know, pursuing coaching and then pursuing consulting, and then finding my way through coaching into the role that I'm in at Clue today, which is, like you know, was a completely made up role. Come in, let's figure this out. And yeah, and I think that now you know where I find where I find those creative outlets is I don't want to lose that and where I find it is.
Speaker 2:I have a podcast that I do, called Winning as Women, where I get to interview amazing women who are driving, you know, in in revenue roles in their organization and, you know, aren't necessarily the ones putting themselves out there on on LinkedIn or on, you know, kind of shining the light on themselves, and I get to interview them and shine the light on the work that they're doing and share some of their brilliance outwards. And those conversations and just the the creativity that that process affords me is is awesome. And similarly, we started a newsletter called Voices of Revenue and it's that same thing, like in the intro. I love it. Every month I write an intro that's based on some celebrity news or gossip, even though that's not something that's even in my wheelhouse, but I force myself to, like, think of something to bring in and tie that and relate that into the world of tech and the world of revenue.
Speaker 2:And and it's like finding those little things that allow me to be creative and spontaneous and feel like I'm having fun at work and that allows me to, I don't know, reconnect with myself and also have those moments of, you know, like my cup is full, you know, and then I have that energy to come in and spend that time with my kids, you know, and create attachment with them. That is very different than I'm taking you to an activity. It is that board time where we're meandering and learning and you know, I don't know, playing a board game, doing a puzzle, doing something where it's just like it's just us, or play lead and they suggest something and you know I'm a dinosaur, unicorn, pokemon and like that's what I'm being in the next minute. You know, you just you kind of have to roll with those punches and find that that creative outlet and expression of like, silliness and not taking yourself seriously, and that's what makes me feel connected to that creative side of myself and that, um, yeah, and that connected side of myself.
Speaker 1:How do you respond to the client who says I don't have time for that?
Speaker 2:I mean, I would say how do you define that?
Speaker 1:Well, for this, you know, for this, um, this time to be bored, this time for spontaneous creativity to show up, or you know, the, the filling one's own cup, right, like oftentimes, that that is the the challenge. I guess I'm looking for some, some help here and talking with my own clients, but so frequently you know, like I'm, you know a lot of my clients are CEOs and and they're and they're like, no, I don't have time for that, like I've got to drive the bus. You know I've got to, I've got to drive the ship here and, and we got to, we got targets to hit and and I don't, I don't have time for this cup filling stuff. And we got to, we got to get going. So how?
Speaker 2:do you? How would you respond to that? No, yeah, totally, and I think that that's what I you know my, my jokey thing back of like define, don't have time for that. Like don't have time for what? Um, I think it's the, the labeling that we put on it, like fill, cut me time. You know, all of that type of woo woo language is is, yeah, probably not going to resonate with people, but I bet if you asked some of your clients, you know, tell me about the last you know great idea you had, like game changing idea. Um, when did it? When did it come to you? Like, it's like you get those answers like in the shower, you know, on a hike, floating in the ocean. It's not like sitting at my desk grinding away trying to get this Excel report out. Like no one gets a great idea in those moments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And you know, to me again, it's this crazy, I don't know, it's just, it's such a strange human behavior, right, and so we feel guilt for taking time off to go fill our cup. And yet it's often when our cup is full that we come up with our best ideas, that we actually operate at our best. You know, and and I've had, I mean, I don't know how many conversations I've had about this with all my clients at some point or another this mistaken belief that, oh, this is the language that I usually hear. Well, I guess I thought I was smarter than the average CEO or the average vice president or whatever right, Whatever their cohort peer group would be. I thought I could do it better. I didn't think that I was the person that needed to take downtime to fill my cup.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like okay, well, how many times do you need to fall in your face before you're going to really accept this right that you're just as human as everybody else? And I think when you and I connected just to catch up a couple of weeks back, that was one of the things that was really on my mind at that time. Was, you know, how is it that we get people to recognize this faster, as opposed to what so frequently seems to happen. Hey, my life just came apart. You know, most of the folks that hire me, it's because something very serious came apart in their life and or their career or whatever.
Speaker 1:And so it's like, God damn, like, are we just as a species destined to, you know, not take these behaviors or best practices seriously until there's just no end of pain that we're feeling? And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, hey, for real. You know, and I don't know I guess I don't really have a question here. I'm just sort of commiserating, hopefully, with a fellow coach at this moment, but to me it's just how do we, how do we help that? You know, as human beings, how do we tune into this notion that, no, actually this is not a luxury. This is how I enable my highest performance. And you know, have you come across any sort of exercise or framework that seems to really snap it into place for people efficiently and effectively, that taking downtime and filling their cup is actually the way?
Speaker 1:No good, but I have not been remiss in my own research.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think so. Yeah, I mean, you know, again, we're we're creatures who are motivated by pain, right, we go towards pain or away from pain faster than we go towards reward, right, so it doesn't, you know, it's no surprise that people turn to tools and resources and have needs when they're in pain. I think that you know, as you, as you age, and as you have a little bit more life experience than gain some wisdom, I think you start to recognize the routines that you can put in place for yourself that aren't yet. I mean, they're constraints, and I think I used to think of routine as like, oh, don't break my spirit. And now, you know, I see routine as as a really positive constraint because it allows me to have a lot of freedom within that, within that constraint. And that's where I see, you know, innovation and rejuvenation come in, for me, is when my, like, my routines are, like, my disciplines are really strong, I feel my best, I look my best, I think my best and I think that's yeah, I think it comes with, I think it comes with wisdom.
Speaker 2:I don't think you can tell that to people that are, that are feeling or thinking invincible thoughts about themselves. You know, and most folks who get into it a serious leadership position. They are, you know they're. They're somewhere on that spectrum of narcissistic right where they, you know, they think they're unique or special or different because they have to right, they have to believe that they're, that they're special to be able to rise above right and push themselves, and so they expect, you know, big things from themselves. But I think that with yeah, unless you, like you do have a personality disorder. If you don't, you know you do, I think, learn that that it's okay to be, you know, like other people and you don't need always need to be unique. And that, yeah, and that setting, like the pace with which you live your life and the day to day matters more necessary, more than the things that you do or plan for throughout a year, like each day is the thing that matters most, right, or each you know hour.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, who are you? Right, it's often a sort of inquiry that I get into who are you when you're connected to? I don't know the drive to be number one versus who are you when you really start to tune into the people around you, and not from a status or comparison perspective, but you know, are you really present with them? Are you really connected? Are you, or are you so distracted and pulled in a million different directions that you can't, you know you can't really even be with the people that you're physically around. You know a lot of my clients, whether they're men or women or, you know, non-denominational, let's say. They often are accused by their friends and family of not actually being present, even though their body is physically there.
Speaker 1:And so you know and I think that's another element of this like how we fracture ourselves and it's like, okay, yes, my physical form is in one place, but my mind is in 10 other places, based on you know the notifications that have been dinging on my mobile device, or you know the messaging that's been coming through my smartwatch, or you know whatever I know we have. We're kind of bumping up on time here, but I do have one more question Do you have enough energy and time to dig into it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, feeling good.
Speaker 1:I'm feeling good. All right, let's see if I can change that. So let's say that you're working with somebody and they're you know, they're a busy executive and you've noticed that they are running in a pretty fractured way, right, and you've also begun to assess that it's really motivated by this kind of this fear of missing out, and some of it might be social, kind of what you were alluding to a few minutes back. You know this idea of wanting to experience all these wonderful things, but then some of it is also more, I guess, scarcity driven right. Do I have the right idea? Are we pursuing the right vertical? Are we, you know, is our product line matched to whatever? How do you help that person go from a state of fear of missing out to a joy of missing out, so that they actually can focus on less but better?
Speaker 2:I think you know the, you know the, you know the, you know the, where I typically start. Always, if I'm noticing those things, I will reach out into that person. And it's, I think, different when you're in a you know a coaching agreement, like you often are with your clients, sean, where you're meeting with them at kind of set times and dates, but you're not necessarily observing them always in other interactions or other meetings throughout a week or a day. So I, because I'm an internal coach and I work, I, you know and coach many people across this organization I might have a one-on-one coaching conversation where we're talking about something you know, be it strategy plans or something personal, behaviorally, something about someone on their team, et cetera, but then I watch them in planning meetings, you know within our people function. Or I watch them in our senior leadership team. You know interactions or meetings or with their team, or, you know, just live with their team casually. And so I think it's like my, the way that I approach it is from that observer standpoint, where I'm saying, hey, I'm noticing some things or I'm like putting together some pieces here and I might not have the exact, you know right, image. You know, that's on the puzzle cover. Yeah, but you know, but some things are, some things are coming together for me and I wanna share them with you and you tell me if I'm, you know, completely out to lunch or if you know, or if some of this resonates. And if it resonates, is it, you know, something we wanna do something about? And then I would usually share things in a, you know, pretty direct way, as I do. You know of, hey, I watched this interaction, or hey, I'm noticing this thing, or you know, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2:And usually, you know, it's often when I'm bringing together and putting together those pieces for them and they're seeing that reflected back, you know, the first reaction might be tears, men, women, whoever. And other times it's like, oh no, you've got the wrong. You know you've got the wrong thing and that's okay too, we can talk about that. And other times I'll say like, hey, notice this. And like right away I get a response being like I'm gonna talk to him directly. Yes, like this is, I know, I think you're gonna follow up with me on that. But yeah, my thing is always, you know, use my intuition and use my dot connecting abilities and my observation skills to put together some pieces and create a bit of a narrative and then vet that narrative because it's not mine, you know it's their story and float it past them, and that's what I would hope someone would do for me too.
Speaker 2:Right is like hey, I see you going in this direction, I'm noticing these things. Do you know that that's happening? Do you see yourself doing that? Is it intentional, you know? If not, why? If so, why, you know? Is that where we wanna go? Is it best serving us? Is it who we wanna be? Do we feel a line there? Like it's just a lot of yeah, kind of questions and reflections.
Speaker 1:I found that oftentimes really digging into their interpretation of guilt. You know, if we look at sort of the way that Brunet Brown often characterizes guilt, it's I've done something wrong and therefore I feel guilty. And you know sort of the theme of the last half of the conversation here, where we're looking at, you know, whether it's the trip to Mexico or, you know, and the women trying to prep their household for their eminent departure and et cetera, et cetera, or an executive that won't take time off. It's oftentimes fueled by a sense of guilt that they're gonna do something wrong if they put more time into filling their own cup, you know, and if they miss out on opportunities. And so you know what is the wrongdoing?
Speaker 1:And really putting somebody face first into that narrative and hey, you explain it to me Like you're the one feeling guilty about this what is really driving that sense of guilt? Where is the wrongdoing? Cause I'm not quite clear on why you think you're doing something wrong, and you know those conversations are always really quite powerful and interesting to hear. You know where these origin stories of oh, I ought to be or I should be doing, dot, dot, dot, you know, like 10X more than I'm already doing, which is 10X more than what is reasonable. So well, this has been awesome. Judi, thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're a 10X kind of person, so I'm just thankful that you're willing to chop some of that time out for me and my audience.
Speaker 2:Now I appreciate it, sean. I always love the meandering nature of these conversations and I'll leave the just what you just last said like. Where I started to learn some of that cup filling was in my early 20s. I was working with a counselor and she said to me and I was like my life was just out of balance in terms of where I was spending time and like who I was spending it with. And one thing she said to me was like let's make a list of the things that you do that are just for you, that make you feel great.
Speaker 2:And I was like, okay, made the list. And she's like, okay, we're titling this list to Jodi Love Jodi, and every day you're doing something on that list. And I started to think about it in that way of what are those things that I get joy out of, and however small or big, but what are those two Jodi love Jodi things that no one else can give me, I have to give myself, and they are the things that make me able to show up for other people, and that's not selfish, that's necessary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. Well, tell folks if they did wanna connect with you. Read your newsletter, listen to the podcast. Where should they go? What should they be doing? Help bring the wisdom to the people, jodi.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, all the wisdom I probably best place, and only place, is really LinkedIn. You can find me, jodi Geiger, on LinkedIn and I will share podcast episodes, things that I'm working on at Clue with the team there, and yeah newsletter, et cetera. That's where you'll find it.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thank you, and if we have not scared you away, I'd love to have you back.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Cool, all right folks. Well, there you have it. Once more. I will do my best to try to wrangle Jodi onto the show and ultimately, these episodes are there to try to not only inform in terms of like a textbook would inform, but also to challenge.
Speaker 1:Where are you running on certain scripts or preform notions of how things ought to be?
Speaker 1:And I think, one of the really amazing things about Jodi and at this point in time, jodi and I have been friends now for a couple of years and I'm really thankful for that friendship because of the fact that Jodi has this really powerful and uncanny knack for looking under nooks and crannies, in the way that people behave and how it is that they respond to things, and her way of bringing that forward actually can be very direct, but it is done in a really caring and powerful way, and so I just wanted to mention that, because I think in her podcast she does a lot of that as well, and where is it that you in turn can learn from that? And you can turn preconceived notions at 90 or 180 degree angles and look at things from a different perspective. So, if you have been gaining value out of the show generally or probably more likely, this particular episode. I would absolutely love it if you would subscribe, share, follow, like, do all the internet things and then, until next time, take care of each other.