How to Run Successful Photography Workshops & Capturing an "Instagram Breaking" Photo with Liron Gertsman

In this episode we're joined by Liron Gertsman (@liron_gertsman_photography), an award-winning nature photographer and conservation photojournalist based in British Columbia, Canada, whose work has been showcased in prestigious museums worldwide. Liron also has experience marketing and running several photography workshops. He also captured an iconic photo during the last total solar eclipse which no doubt you saw at some point on your feed.

You can find all of Liron's links here: https://linktr.ee/liron_gertsman_photography

Expect to learn:

-how to plan and envision and epic photo from idea to posting
-how to craft a different and unorthodox photograph
-when you're ready to run your first photography workshop
-how to successfully market your photography workshops
-how to price a photography workshop
-how to successfully run a photography workshop from start to finish

Book a one time virtual 30 minute 1-on-1 session with Aaron or Seth entirely for FREE by using the code "FREETRIAL" at checkout: https://thephotographermindset.com/products/60-minute-virtual-1-on-1-session

Sponsor:

Thanks to WhiteWall for being our lead sponsor this episode! They're the top choice for photographers who want high-quality prints, with a variety of material options, and who want their work delivered fast in 9 days or less!

They are currently offering a giveaway of  $200 vouchers to ten lucky winners, and 10% off for everyone who participates. Don't miss out and sign up for the giveaway which runs until August 31st, 2024: https://www.whitewall.com/

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
@thephotographermindset

Transcript

INTRO:

00:00.87
smacey
Hey, welcome back to another episode of the photographer mindset podcast. I'm your co-host Seth Macy. Aaron is also my co-host, but he is absent on this intro today, which is okay. We just need a little time apart. I kid, I kid, but today we had on Lee Ron Gertzman, who is a professional nature photographer, wildlife biologist, conservation photojournalist, who is based out of Vancouver, Canada, and you've probably seen an iconic photo of his that was circulating around social media around the time of the the solar eclipse. It's the photograph of a bird flying with its wingtip perfectly touching the edge of the eclipse. Super, super different photo during a time when everyone was kind of posting similar shots of the eclipse. But it's a stunning photograph. We spend the first half of this episode

00:50.14
smacey
talking about it for sure but also digging into concepts surrounding it involving social media if it did anything for him as a photographer having something blow up like it that big we talked about the planning of the shot going into things you know without crazy expectations and hoping for the best even though you've done as much planning as you possibly can. So that was really interesting. And then in the second half of this podcast, we talk about setting up and how to run a photo workshop. So if you're somebody who has maybe run one or has never run one and you're looking

01:26.92
smacey
to find some information on how to go about doing that. Lee Ron, he says a lot. He's not an expert and I admire his humility, but he's run a fair amount of photography workshops. And the second half of this episode is a plethora of knowledge for those who are interested at the idea of potentially running their own photo workshop in the future. So I said it at the end of this, you got to listen to it twice, really digest the information. I'm not just saying that because I'm the host. I learned a lot from it. So make sure you make sure you do that. Listen to it twice. And if you like what you're here, leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It's a cost-free effective way to support our show and we are super appreciative. Links to Leeron's stuff, including his workshops, are in our episode description. And you can also watch us on YouTube if you'd like to have a visual element to these podcasts. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel, which is also in the episode description. And with that, a quick word from our sponsor and then we'll get into today's episode.

INTERVIEW:

00:09.27
smacey
Liron, thanks for joining us today. Appreciate your time, man. How did you come about capturing that iconic eclipse photo with the raven flying through? Is it a raven or a crow? I can't remember.

00:20.56
Liron Gertsman
It's neither. It's a magnificent frigate bird.

00:21.63
smacey
It's neither. A frigate bird. That's even better for the story.

00:25.03
Liron Gertsman
Yes. Yeah.

00:26.85
smacey
I think everyone knows the the photo we're talking about.

00:27.10
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

00:29.69
smacey
I'm sure it bounced across so many listeners' feeds. That bird flying with its wing perfectly touching the edge of the... Is it in totality in that photo? Just about, huh?

00:41.04
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, it's it's totality.

00:41.30
smacey
The eclipse.

00:42.60
Liron Gertsman
It's the diamond ring, which is like the 10 seconds right at the start or end of totality when the very edge of the sun starts peeking out.

00:50.39
smacey
Yeah. And Aaron, maybe we can pop that up on YouTube. Uh, if you don't mind, Leron, if just so for people watching there can, can reference it.

00:54.70
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, absolutely.

00:56.52
smacey
If you want to go see that, you can also check out Leron's page, which is always linked to our guests in the episode description. So tell us more about what and went into that shot. That's not just a random happen to be there, get the shot.

01:07.21
Liron Gertsman
okay

01:08.43
smacey
And I think it speaks a lot to planning and executing a long-term vision. Am I right?

01:15.41
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, absolutely. So that photo was well over a year kind of in the making. um It was an idea that I'd had probably like sometime in 2022, so like close to a couple of years before the actual eclipse. um I was like, you know, it'd be like the coolest photo ever, a bird flying across of a total solar eclipse. I kind of have a background mostly in like in wildlife photography. Birds have kind of been one thing that I photographed for most of my life. A lot of that probably being just because they're what's accessible. When you live in a city, like you don't see bears and wolves on a daily basis, but you see birds. So I've always loved photographing birds.

01:53.76
Liron Gertsman
And I also for a long time, thanks to actually a super inspirational grade eight, nine um science teacher, I've been into like space and like night sky astrophotography stuff. um So I'm always on the lookout for those rare opportunities to try to combine the birds and the, the you know, celestial bodies, the night sky, space, all that sort of stuff.

02:12.62
smacey
Mm hmm.

02:19.12
Liron Gertsman
And Yeah, I spent like close to like over a year planning this. um And it all eventually came together this past April during the four minutes and 20 seconds of totality. And I was just situated on a little boat off the coast of Mazatlán on the west coast of Mexico.

02:34.72
smacey
Right. Oh, so you're on the water shooting this on top of it.

02:37.93
Liron Gertsman
Yes, I was on a boat, which is definitely an untraditional way of photographing something like an eclipse, which normally you'd be using like a tripod and you'd be all set up with everything to go. But I needed to maximize my chances to get a bird in front of the eclipse. Obviously, it's not something that just is likely to randomly happen. um And there's these small islets off the coast of Mazatlán that have a lot of like magnificent frigate birds and blue-footed boobies and all these seabirds that come and roost and nest on these little islets. um And I figured that would be my best chance. So in order to kind of get in a position where these birds would be flying around in the sky in front of the eclipse, I had to get on a boat and sit situate myself like right next to these little islands.

03:17.70
smacey
Right. So this is aclipse total eclipse happens one to three years. as You said, right in your caption somewhere on the planet.

03:22.85
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

03:24.48
smacey
This is a year of planning and four and a half minutes to execute.

03:25.10
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

03:29.19
smacey
How do you stay composed? Were you, were you frantic?

03:31.14
Liron Gertsman
yeah

03:32.54
smacey
I mean, that's a lot. I mean, there's a lot of time and energy sunk into something that can just very easily not be captured.

03:39.57
Liron Gertsman
Absolutely, and I think the mindset that I had to have heading into this, which is kind of a mindset I i try to carry throughout all of my photography, is like, this very well couldn't happen, and that's okay.

03:47.98
smacey
you

03:52.17
Liron Gertsman
Like, I might not get this photo, and that's fine. I'm gonna be out here, I'm gonna be in the moment, I'm gonna enjoy the experience. um So, because I kind of tried to come into it with as much of that mindset as possible, I do feel like I was pretty calm. I think it's impossible not to have like a little bit of nerves in that situation, because it's like, You know, who knows? It'll be years before the next opportunity to do something like this. um But I did feel like I was quite well prepared. Like I'd been scouting and researching for a long time. It wasn't even my first time sitting on the boat by these islands. I had done a practice run where we went out a couple days earlier with the boat, got into position right underneath these islands during the time that the eclipse would be. I'd been keeping it on an eye on the island at nighttime too, which is because with the idea that, okay, during an eclipse, the birds might think that it's nighttime because basically night ah day turns to night during a total eclipse. um So I had a lot of practice and preparation that I think helped ah keep the confidence levels reasonably high.

04:48.76
smacey
Yeah, I mean, that's in a weird way when you choose to pursue something that's very difficult. And you know, in your mind that no matter how much you practice, how much you plan, how prepared you are, things can still go wrong. In a weird way that almost alleviates a lot of pressure, would you agree?

05:07.77
Liron Gertsman
I would absolutely agree. Um, to be honest, the thing that I felt the most pressure about in this situation was kind of the buildup. Um, there were clouds in the forecast and that meant that in the week leading up to the eclipse, I was just kind of scouting around Sinaloa on the West coast of Mexico, um, trying to find like backup options. Cause it was looking like, you know, if you drove a couple hours, it might be able to kind of escape some of this cloud cover and did manage to find backup options, but ultimately went with my gut, went with plan A, um taking the risk that we could be clouded out. But like I was like, I'm going to take this risk to try to get this yeah the photo in the place that it's most likely to happen. um so So yeah.

05:50.59
smacey
Right. So you mentioned, I guess you kind of have that. I want to say detached, but not in a negative term, just whatever happens happens, not having certain expectations, hope but being hopeful, but not having dead set expectations of certain situations. How has that served you elsewhere? I mean, I'm using this photo kind of as a metaphor for, for some other topics throughout this episode. And this is one of them, but that's, yeah that's very useful. I think for people, uh, going into something, trying your best and not expecting.

06:18.30
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

06:22.48
smacey
not setting super high expectations for something, just going and trying and and doing your best.

06:28.79
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I'm like ah a really, really big planner when it comes to photography, so rather than like just going out for a walk with my camera and seeing what I get, I do like to try to plan things out and pre-envision the photo that I'm going to try to capture before I take it. um And that means that like I'm usually not attempting photos that I think I'm just not gonna get like if I if I thought the chance was like just zero I just like wouldn't be trying so I feel like I in that way kind of do set myself up for success a lot of the time but anytime you're pursuing I guess such complicated and challenging photos

07:08.32
Liron Gertsman
you're you're at the will of nature ultimately. And I think that as like a professional wildlife photographer, if we were only satisfied and happy with ourselves when we, everything went perfectly to plan and we nailed the photo we were going after, it would be a pretty miserable pursuit because, you know, I i probably end up sharing something like one for every close to 10,000 photos that I take. So I'd just be miserable all the time if I was like only going to be happy and and satisfied if I nailed the photo. So yeah I think you just have to have this perspective of like, I'm doing everything that I can to try to get this photo. But if I don't get this photo, you know what? I just still had a really cool outdoor experience. Did I learn something? Probably whether it was about photography, whether it was about nature. As long as you're kind of enjoying it and learning as you go, I kind of see that as a success.

07:55.57
smacey
Right. So you've captured this photo. You've got the shot you want. I imagine it, right? Is that fair to say?

08:01.71
Liron Gertsman
Yes, yeah, yeah Yeah, so

08:02.20
smacey
Okay. So, so it's sitting on your SD card. Are you thinking to yourself, this is going to do a quarter million likes on Instagram and possibly change my online persona? Or are you like, what's the, what's the, where's the head space at when you've got a photo that you're really proud of before even sharing it?

08:22.32
Liron Gertsman
In this particular case, I'd been so kind of involved and invested in the planning and the preparation and like practice runs and making sure all the settings are programmed into the camera and everything that I hadn't even really gotten to the stage of like, okay, now that I have the photo, like what am I going to do with it? But, as I guess someone who is, I guess a content creator of some sort, I don't like, I don't know exactly how I would describe what I do, but like, you know, photography for a little bit of a content creator, I do obviously recognize that when there's something like a total solar eclipse.

08:55.16
Liron Gertsman
There's a ton of hype in the moment for those next few days and after that things are going to die off. So I knew that, okay, I should probably get up this photo as fast as possible. So I had actually um brought down ah a good friend of mine to film some behind the scenes and we put together a little like behind the scenes video which is on YouTube. um But because of that I had some videos filmed of like the taking of the photo and I was thinking right away like okay should probably just make a quick Instagram real TikTok of like the taking of the photo and then the photo reveal.

09:21.97
smacey
you

09:25.63
Liron Gertsman
um So that afternoon the eclipse was at like 11 10 a.m. and sometime that afternoon evening I had posted the photo and posted the real kind of went to bed and then I think by the time I woke up the next morning the real and TikTok had like already in the low millions of views so it was very much like an instant overnight sort of thing.

09:47.14
smacey
Right. Was that you can be honest? Were you expecting that?

09:55.11
Liron Gertsman
um i was definitely expecting it to like do very well whatever that means um i was definitely expecting it to get attention but i was definitely not expecting it to like do as well as it did. And it was never like the goal. I didn't go take this photo to create a viral reel or something like that. It was very much like a personal, it was like, I want to achieve this goal I've had for like a couple of years, just for like my general enjoyment in my photography portfolio.

10:17.96
smacey
Right.

10:26.98
Liron Gertsman
But I was aware that, you know, it was something that could catch a lot of attention and it ultimately did.

10:33.37
smacey
Yeah, that's important when you just said that it wasn't the, it was a consequence of doing something you wanted to do.

10:38.98
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, yeah, which I think is kind of like photography is at its best when you're producing things that you want to produce, taking photos that you want to take, and then they end up being really successful. um Because that doesn't always happen, but I think it's very cool when when it does happen.

10:57.21
smacey
Yeah, Aaron, do you want to jump in at all or should I keep going?

10:59.56
Aaron
Yeah, just a couple questions. You had how many seconds of totality did you have in that spot? 10 seconds, 45 seconds. What'd you say?

11:09.84
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, so I was on the the kind of near Mazatlan just offshore. Oh, sorry, cut out there. um So yeah, I was just off the the coast of Mazatlan and I had about four minutes and 20 seconds of totality um to try to get the photo, which is actually a pretty long length of time for a total solar eclipse.

11:23.76
Aaron
Four minutes.

11:32.28
Liron Gertsman
um But for getting any kind of wildlife photo, like it's a pretty short length of time. um So it was definitely like everything had to be just right, had to get in position before, um you know, totality began where there were already birds flying around in order to get the shot. I had done actually a practice run during a partial solar eclipse um in October, 2023, where, you know, in a partial solar eclipse, you have maybe like an hour and a half to get a bird lined up with the solar eclipse. And I managed to do it. But four minutes and 20 seconds is a completely different ballgame.

12:09.07
smacey
Yeah.

12:09.30
Aaron
Yeah, so in that four minutes.

12:09.90
smacey
So.

12:10.42
Liron Gertsman
I'm just going to, sorry, I'm just going to reduce my exposure. The sun came out.

12:15.70
smacey
Okay.

12:16.36
Liron Gertsman
Okay. Sun started lighting my face there. So yeah, we're good.

12:20.39
smacey
im I'm just, I'm just going to make a note of where that happened at 12 minutes, 22.

12:20.91
Aaron
so

12:22.55
Liron Gertsman
Okay.

12:26.25
Aaron
So in that four minutes and 20 some odd seconds, at what percent or like what, what minute or second do you feel like, Oh, I got the, the photo and the rest is kind of just gravy. Uh, or was it, was it dwindling down to the, to the ninth, you know, the ninth hour where you're like, this is, this has got to happen. I'm just curious the drama within that four minutes.

12:50.82
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, that's a really good question. um So, ah this spot that I was photographing from by this island was the perfect spot for this. Like, I fully intend to try to recreate this with future eclipses, but I don't know if I'll ever have such a, like, quote unquote, it still wasn't easy, but like an easy spot to get a bird with the eclipse, because there were hundreds of birds in the sky the entire time the eclipse was going on, which was a factor of planning and finding the perfect spot where birds frequent both at daytime and nighttime so like whatever they do during the clips they're gonna be there so I mean I think like

13:24.33
Liron Gertsman
immediately basically I was getting photos with birds in front of the eclipse but the photo that was my favorite and the one that that kind of went viral was taken at the very very end the last few seconds of the totality in that diamond ring phase they call it because it looks like a diamond ring when the edge of the sun starts to poke out so that was right at the last possible second when I captured the photo that was ultimately my favorite shot

13:49.21
smacey
Why do you think this photo was so well received?

13:53.20
Liron Gertsman
Hmm, that's a really good question. um i Yeah, yeah.

13:55.58
smacey
Aside from it being great, do you think it's simply just because it's so unique, or do you think there's more to it? I mean, this is a question about knowing your audience, I guess, here.

14:01.51
Liron Gertsman
I think, yeah.

14:03.56
smacey
or

14:05.71
Liron Gertsman
I think what it is, and I kind of try to apply this principle to like all the photos that I take whenever I can. I think what it is is like a total solar eclipse is a rare event. So it's something that's going to excite people. It's very beautiful. So naturally it's like a visually appealing photo that people are going to connect with. But when something like a total solar eclipse happens, like social media gets flooded with hundreds, thousands, I mean, honestly, probably millions of photos of the exact same thing. um And everyone is wants to get like on the subject. Everyone's excited about it. So like a lot of people are going to be like sharing a photo of the eclipse, but they're not going to be sharing all 10,000 photos of the eclipse that might pop up in their feet.

14:50.22
Liron Gertsman
so I think the reason it it like kind of got the attention it did is just because of like how unique it was. It was like the photo of the eclipse that there was only one of. It was a unique take on a so familiar special sight. So it was like a one-of-a-kind photo of a hugely photographed thing. So whenever there's these photographic occasions, like the northern lights are out, or there's a total solar eclipse, or maybe it's just like a really popular spot to photograph bears. I always kind of like to go into it with that approach. It's like, how can I take a photo in this moment that will be different from all the other photos that are being taken at the same moment of the same scene?

15:35.48
smacey
Yeah, it's great advice in an industry that's super saturated. and So i'm glad you said I'm glad you said that.

15:39.00
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

15:40.57
smacey
Okay, so I think other people will be, I think on this podcast and I would imagine other podcasts that are in the photography genre as well. We get a lot more clicks when social media is mentioned. Now that doesn't mean we're just going to make episodes about social media. That's not, we don't want to become, we don't want to become the the content if that makes sense. But I think people who are interested in growing their social media or getting better engagement, all that things are going to be sitting to to, sitting there, listening, asking themselves, okay, did this, um first I'm going to say you're so, you're an incredible photographer beyond just this photo.

16:20.66
smacey
I don't want people to think that you, you, you're like, you are this photo but just before we, before we move on any further. And we're going to get, we're going to get into the second half of this interview about some other stuff.

16:27.75
Liron Gertsman
think that

16:31.55
smacey
It's not going to all be about this photo, but people listening may be seeing, okay, well, Quarter million likes, more than that. Tons of comments, super well received. Did this do anything for your photography career?

16:44.38
Liron Gertsman
Oh, that's a really, really good question. um I think the answer is I don't know. I do think that you don't need like a big social media following or anything to pursue photography professionally, I think the core audience is what matters. Like there needs to be, it's a thing that's commonly said, but you have to have like a small group of people who really care about your work and maybe want to learn from you if that's kind of the way that you make your career in photography. Or maybe a small group of people that love your work and want it on their walls, if that's the way that that you make living in photography. So I do think that it like certainly doesn't hurt whatsoever.

17:24.20
Liron Gertsman
um it gets a lot of eyes on your work. But I've always been a little bit skeptical of Reels. And honestly, I'm i'm curious of of your thoughts on this too. like I've been skeptical of like the strategy of like blowing up on social media with like short-form content like Reels and how it actually contributes to like a ah career in photography. Because I've kind of ah been under the impression that like

17:47.13
smacey
Right.

17:51.89
Liron Gertsman
it certainly opens up avenues in terms of like more of like the influencer type thing, like, oh, you might get set more likely to get a sponsorship or you can maybe get to go on trips for free because you have like a large following to kind of use to promote things and stuff like that. But from like a professional photography perspective, I don't know that the people who are following your work because they saw one of your videos for 10 seconds are like the people who are going to convert into clients that actually make you able to do it as a career. So, from that perspective, I don't really think it made a big difference in that area. But I will say that one thing I have learned since this reel has gone viral is that as an artist, when you have a viral reel like this, you can actually have great potential in selling your work directly. Like, there was a big response in terms of like selling prints of the eclipse photo um as a result of so many eyes being on it.

18:48.20
Liron Gertsman
And that was kind of nice. um But for a long-term career thing, I think it kind of still remains to be seen.

18:56.56
smacey
Yeah, I mean, unless and my take on it, because you're you're asking my take on it is

19:01.14
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

19:05.80
smacey
Instagram, all this stuff. And I mean, and this is obvious. Maybe it's not. It's a funnel. Like you are, you have to be doing something else. Are you selling a course? Are you selling a product? Are you selling? Are you selling something? I mean, if you're interested in a large following, I think equating to income, it can't just be, I don't think it can just be the influencer marketing. I really don't. I think that's for very few people.

19:30.66
Liron Gertsman
yeah

19:32.37
smacey
At least, mean I mean, I'm kind of apathetic towards social media to a degree. Everybody who listens to this knows that. um But I do see the importance of it. And I do think that engaging and consistent content allows people to dig deeper into other things you are offering of value beyond just the scroll.

19:57.97
Liron Gertsman
Yeah. Yeah. That's I think a a very good assessment.

20:01.69
smacey
but And you just said it yourself there. You're like, yeah, this photo did great. And I was able to sell prints. That's how people should be thinking.

20:06.68
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

20:07.60
smacey
I think if if income is important, I realize not everybody listening is interested in generating income from photography. Some people just want to get better and have fun and get better shots, which I totally, totally respect.

20:23.86
Aaron
Yeah. If I could jump in, I think there's a, there's a fallacy in thought sometimes that as soon as you go viral, as soon as you have a hundred thousand followers, as soon as you have a million likes, then you'll get money thrown to you where I think it's kind of the reverse, like you. You have to have something that you're selling, whether it's your time, a product, prints. You have to have something for people to funnel to. It doesn't just happen automatically because you have a following or a really cool reel or a really funny idea or a really cool picture. It's not just going to automatic happen. ah And as we all know, social media is like a 24, 48 hour thing. And then a post goes away. Like if you're not following it up with something, you're in trouble.

21:09.60
Aaron
And I would bet ah that with your prints, you kind of had to move and have those available immediately. Otherwise that buzz of the eclipse and the buzz of the real and the buzz of the the whole moment kind of goes away. So it's got to be, you got to have something there ah for people to come and take a look at and check out and be like, Oh, this guy also does workshops. Let me, uh, let me click on that and see where that is. If you don't have anything, people will be like, that was cool content and move on to the next scroll. So I think it's this fallacy sometimes that people are like, Oh, I'll make it when I have 50,000 followers. I'll, I'll start a course when I have a hundred thousand followers. And I think it's almost too late. Like you missed, you have to have that ready and then work up towards it.

21:58.74
Liron Gertsman
yeah yeah absolutely i'm just yeah good sir i'm just gonna close these blinds a bit so i don't have to worry about the sunlight overexposing here okay that should do it

21:58.92
smacey
Yeah. Good segue.

22:06.43
smacey
No worries. No worries. A good segue, Aaron. Thanks for setting that up because I wanted to, in the second half of this, touch on something I don't think we really have, and it's going to be really useful for people who are interested in running photo tours, photography retreats, workshops, all those sort of synonymous terms.

22:13.54
Aaron
Thank you

22:28.54
smacey
Currently, you're running a bald eagle photo workshop next summer. You have Great Bear Rainforest tours this year.

22:34.21
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

22:37.26
Aaron
all.

22:37.77
smacey
bird photography workshop later in October and November, right in Ecuador. I'm looking at your.

22:42.59
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

22:43.87
smacey
Owls of Alberta photo workshop in February of 2025. So it seems like you know how to run a workshop. And I think there's a lot of people listening who are either I'd like to do that someday, or I really feel like i'm I'm at a stage where I'm ready for that to do my first one. And I have no idea how to start. Maybe we can start this topic, this second half with your very first photo workshop you ran, how you knew you were ready and kind of the details of it.

23:11.58
Liron Gertsman
Ooh, yeah, yeah, but this is a really good topic. And I think it's also important to acknowledge that like in the market of professional wildlife photography in 2024, the workshops are how a lot of people make ends meet um because people are eager for experiences um and they wanna learn how to be a better photographer while experiencing things.

23:14.39
smacey
Sweet.

23:35.56
Liron Gertsman
So this is I think this is kind of one of the the key areas of profession and career for a, you know, quote unquote professional wildlife photographer. So my path with workshops is kind of unique. um And that's mostly because I've just been really into photography and all that from like a really, really young age. um So ah believe it or not, I landed my first ever client for like a little photography, just like half day workshop when I was 14 years old.

24:07.83
Liron Gertsman
And the person knew I was 14 years old. Like it wasn't a surprise or anything, but like I had been sharing images on the internet. um I had developed an area of expertise, at least in my local neighborhood of like photographing shorebirds on their migration and knowing where the best spots were to get good photos of shorebirds. And that was a market that attracted people. And they were like, oh, well, I want to get good shots of shorebirds. And I kind of like this 14 year old shorebird photos. And, you know, what i I think like looking back on it, like it's kind of crazy, like that at that age, people were

24:45.08
Liron Gertsman
already kind of trusting me but I also really I really like think that it's super cool that like people are willing to to trust and be that open-minded to learn from someone who's like a teenager so I think that's why I have the best clients in the world, because like there are a lot of people who are like so open-minded, they started coming on trips with me when I was like a teenager. But that kind of developed more and more as I as i got a little older. um When I kind of finished university, I did a biology degree at UBC. And when I finished that, I kind of just knew and already had a plan and kind of was ready to jump right into doing group photography workshops full-time.

25:29.30
Liron Gertsman
um And the first ever photography workshop I did was, um, what was it? I mean, I, I did like a little, like, I did some like one, two day photography things around like Vancouver. We'd like a water, a lot of waterfowl in Vancouver, but that very quickly kind of stepped up to like, you know like five, six day trips, like photographing bald eagles and and whales and bears around Vancouver Island, photographing bears and whales and wolves in the Great Bear Rainforest, then you know like photographing owls in Alberta, all that all that sort of stuff.

26:02.14
Liron Gertsman
um So yeah, it's it's been it's been a fun journey and I really enjoyed doing it. um Yeah, i don't I don't know if you have other, I'm sure you have more questions of to dig into on this, yeah.

26:12.97
smacey
Yeah. Yeah. i'm um I'm going to adopt the mind of somebody listening right now. I'm going to put my plate in myself in their shoes and try and ask all the questions I would want to ask if I was figuring out from somebody who is succeeding in running workshops how I could do my first one. That's kind of the approach I'm taking.

26:30.27
Liron Gertsman
yeah yeah

26:30.98
smacey
Or refine, if I've already done a couple, refine it. So speaking, we talked about funnels earlier. what was What do you think was and or is now, if that's changed, your main funnel for getting people to sign up? Obviously, past clients, right? You you develop a level of rapport and trust that you can deliver, but before that, maybe How do you convince people to sign up for your workshop that you know what you're doing, that they're going to get value, that they're going to learn, that they're going to get great shots, that they're going to get better?

27:02.17
smacey
How do you convince people of that?

27:02.90
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

27:04.00
smacey
Does that happen naturally? Do you have to take on a sales role? I'll leave it with you.

27:09.06
Liron Gertsman
So I think there's two main reasons people sign up for a photography workshop. One is the photographer who's leading it. So oftentimes they have followed the work of the photographer for a while and they are maybe impressed with the work or they think there's something they can learn about or maybe they just like that photographer's personality. And whatever it is, there's something that makes them want to go on a trip with that photographer. So I think that's one that's one area. And then the other thing that makes someone sign up for a workshop, I think, is the experience that is being offered and what is the actual destination.

27:45.13
Liron Gertsman
And I actually think these are pretty equally important. um i would all I would probably say, like, the person offering the workshop is probably more important than even the the exact experience or the destination.

27:59.72
smacey
Why?

27:59.78
Liron Gertsman
um So, yeah, so the reason for that, I think, is simply because, like, There are so many trips that like a photographer can sign up for that are being offered in the world. Like the market is, as niche of a career as doing wildlife photography workshops is, the market is huge. Like there are infinite trips that you could sign up for. So what is going to make someone want to sign up for your workshop that you're offering over someone else's? I don't know, I'm still figuring that out, but I think it has to be along the lines of the person that is offering the workshop, obviously combined with like the destination. um I think the destination is what gets people like excited about it, but like the person offering the workshop is important because how do people find out about the workshop that you're offering? Usually it's not because they were just googling, oh I want to

28:52.05
Liron Gertsman
photograph Eagles on Vancouver Island, especially since a lot of workshops are like rep can be relatively unknown things that are being photographed. They don't have a big internet presence. I think it's more so like people follow their favorite photographers. They follow them on social media. They sign up for their email newsletter. ah Maybe they come out to some of their in-person events. Another one that people sometimes find me for is I do a lot of like presentations for like photo clubs um in Vancouver and since COVID also all around the world. um And people, whatever it is, whatever way you're kind of reaching people, they end up following you on social media. They end up on your email list. And then when you offer an experience and they were thinking about maybe doing some kind of wildlife trip, they want to jump on board. I think that I still have like a lot to learn in terms of even understanding, even within my own client base, where and why and how exactly people are coming. But I do think like it is a really important area to be constantly thinking about.

29:47.25
smacey
Right. 30 minutes.

29:49.19
Liron Gertsman
Okay. Yeah. I, uh, I already, yeah, we're good.

29:51.46
Aaron
Perfect.

29:52.96
Liron Gertsman
I, when I adjusted the lighting, I just like stopped and started. So we're good.

29:57.11
smacey
Okay. We can continue.

29:59.07
Liron Gertsman
yeah

29:59.43
Aaron
great

30:00.72
smacey
Okay.

30:03.62
smacey
Aaron, should we just continue to do anything but video guy?

30:05.95
Aaron
Yeah, we don't do anything. yeah we're We're good.

30:08.91
smacey
Okay.

30:10.25
Aaron
We'll just continue.

30:10.76
smacey
I made a note of this too.

30:10.84
Aaron
Yeah.

30:14.04
smacey
ah all right so yeah i mean that's a That's a great point because I think doing the camera club stuff right and doing in-person stuff, people have followed you work followed your work online. They see the quality of the work. Okay, check. But then when you do those other things where it's ah a camera or a camera club talk or a meetup, they they get to see the personality and I feel like they gain confidence in who you are, your personality, how you speak. ah People have you know a sense of of other's levels of confidence. So I think that's important. And I think it's also important as I'm sitting here listening to that, people can do that without having to go physically give a talk. I mean, you can hop on Instagram Live in instagram live and people can get that sense, right? I think it goes back to our discussion about the funnel too, right? people are you're You're constantly funneling people to something else, not necessarily as, Oh, I want to make money. I want to make money. But if you're interested in income, you got to be thinking about that, right?

31:14.94
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think like part of the reason um the part of part of the reason like it's not something that everyone does is just because I think to like to do a career in that area it does require like obviously you need to be a photographer with some some level of like wildlife photography experience you don't have to be like the best in the world or anything but you need to have some level of wildlife photography experience you also need to have I would say this is like really up there with some of the most important stuff you need to have some level of I guess

31:48.03
Liron Gertsman
comfortable comfortable people skills and be comfortable like talking with people and educating and standing up in front of a group and presenting which is something that some people have naturally and some people work on but can work on and very successfully develop that area of their skill set. And then you also kind of need to think of it like a business which is I kind of joke like it's unfortunate because I don't think wildlife photographers get into wildlife photography or any professional photographer in general gets into it because they were like I want to be a business person.

32:14.77
smacey
Right.

32:14.98
Liron Gertsman
But ultimately, if you're going to do it as your career, it is kind of important to think of it a little bit in in that way and think about, like, what is it that people are looking for and how can I, with my skill set that I have, I guess, give offerings that provide things that people want to do and maybe solve some of their problems. Like, I want to get good photos of wildlife. Well, here's a way to do that.

32:36.75
smacey
Yeah. And I think you mentioned comfortability. I think you as the person leading the workshop too, you need to have a level level of comfortability in the place.

32:47.07
Liron Gertsman
Mm-hmm.

32:47.79
smacey
Right.

32:47.93
Liron Gertsman
Absolutely.

32:49.40
smacey
I mean, like I'm not taking people out to California out on the water on my own, right?

32:53.89
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

32:55.81
smacey
ah I mean, that's not to say that you can't run a workshop in a place you've never been. I mean, being outside and experiencing wildlife in general, especially when there's wildlife of similar species in different areas. I mean, that's experience.

33:08.73
Liron Gertsman
For sure.

33:09.26
smacey
right I mean, we just we just ran a trip in Alaska and we hadn't been to Alaska, but we've known tons of people that have gone to Alaska. We asked tons of questions. We photographed a lot of the animals that are there. We've photographed mountains before. It's like there was a level of comfortability despite not having gone there. right Last year we did a trip in Jasper and heart goes out to Jasper, all my Canadians.

33:25.94
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

33:30.85
smacey
if you I don't know if you guys have seen that.

33:31.00
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

33:32.17
smacey
Oh my God, devastating.

33:32.23
Liron Gertsman
It's tragic.

33:34.38
smacey
Um, yeah, that one hurt, but we did that last year and I had been four times. Like I had the confidence to be able to go with Aaron and bring people in like this. I like, I know, kind of know where I am. Uh, I think it's important that you kind of are not winging it into place or like, if you're doing a bird workshop, I guess, like knowing, knowing your local birds and your area, just being an expert in a very small in the area. Right.

33:58.42
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, totally. I think that one of the things that is super important when you're like, actually, i you've like decided, okay, I think I have the market. I think I have the clients, the interest for a workshop. Ultimately, the location and experience that you craft is really important because it can't just be the coolest thing you can dream of. Oftentimes, that's also the hardest thing to sell because they can be it can be very competitive to go run a trip with grizzly bears in Alaska or a safari in Africa.

34:24.25
smacey
Right.

34:24.30
Liron Gertsman
um Those can be very competitive markets. So I think the the area for success is to, especially if you're starting and you're like, i need I'm going to try to find one workshop, is like find a location and a photographic opportunity that A, is a genuinely really good photographic opportunity that is possible to photograph with like a small group of people and two, have it be something that is personal to you that you have experience with um and that maybe is somewhat unique and I think that is the key for like starting out with photo workshops is like

34:56.07
Liron Gertsman
the The thing that you're offering has to be unique in some way because if you don't have like a huge base of people who are already kind of coming on your trips, it's really hard to sell a workshop to like a really competitive sought after location because there's just so many options for people. um But finding a spot that is unique that you know better you know well maybe you know better than anyone else. Like that is a reason for people to come with you.

35:18.60
smacey
Yeah. And what do you think a good duration is for somebody who's looking to their first or second workshop?

35:24.06
Liron Gertsman
Um, that's a really good question. I think to set a duration for a trip, you need to think a little bit about who the people are that are coming on the trip. If your market is like people who live really close to the area where you're doing the trip, like say, if I'm, I live in Vancouver, Canada, if I'm doing a photo workshop that's in Vancouver or maybe on Vancouver Island or somewhere nearby, and I think that I'm going to be selling this to people who live in Vancouver and Vancouver Island, I find shorter is often the way to go. Like. three, four days. You can even start with like a one day, two day experience to see kind of what the interest is level before you jump into offering like longer things. um If you're doing a workshop in a more remote destination where you know the people coming to that trip are just going to be jumping on a plane, like something like the Great Bear Rainforest or something like Ecuador, a couple of the places where I guide trips.

36:13.25
Liron Gertsman
Usually when people are already traveling that that far and getting to a remote area, they don't want to go for three days. They want to go for a longer period of time. So I think like a week is a really good length um for like really more adventurous trips. Like the trips I do, the trip I'm doing to Ecuador is two weeks. um So it has to be a combination of ah thinking about, I guess, who's coming on this trip. And also a really important consideration that I didn't mention is how long do you genuinely think you will need to get to like properly experience this area and to get some nice photos?

36:42.96
smacey
Right. And so when you're on location, what in your opinion is the most important thing you can do to make sure everybody is happy and also a two parter, uh, how much you can go overboard with teaching, right?

36:54.39
Liron Gertsman
you

37:01.36
Liron Gertsman
Yes.

37:02.74
smacey
What's the balance between all offer advice when asked versus I'm going to, I need to spew as much knowledge as possible.

37:10.82
Liron Gertsman
Yeah. Okay. So first second question was teaching. What was the first one again?

37:15.19
smacey
Well, maybe they blend together. What the most important part is as kind of a manager of the trip when you're on location managing, managing people, essentially in personalities.

37:20.19
Liron Gertsman
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll i'll start there. um It's honestly really difficult to say like one thing that is the most important to make sure everyone's happy because it totally depends on the group that you have. It totally depends on um where you are and what type of trip it is. I think part of that duty falls on me as the person who's planning the trip to make sure I'm leading a trip in a place that is just going to guarantee that people are happy. but I don't want to be leading ah a workshop to a place where

37:56.94
Liron Gertsman
we might not see anything. Or if I am trying to do a workshop where we're maybe going after something really elusive like a wolf where, yeah, we might not have success, it needs to be like just a spectacular, beautiful area where people are going to have a good time regardless. So I would say so The base of that, making sure people are happy, is making sure that the experience that you're offering is genuinely an exceptional experience that like anyone would have a good time on, kind of regardless if a bunch of things go wrong, like people are going to have a good time. um As far as the teaching part of the question, like how much do you teach? My approach for this, it varies based on the trip.

38:33.71
Liron Gertsman
um But I often have workshops where we have time in the field. Maybe we have time in the field when the light is really good and when there's the best wildlife activities. Maybe that's like closer to sunrise and sunset. And then we might have time of day when the light isn't as good or the wildlife isn't as active. That is a little more downtime, and a little more kind of rest time. so how i often kind of do my trips is like when the wildlife activity is good and the light is good like we are out photographing and that's kind of the priority and then in the times when the activity isn't as good or maybe if it's like a winter trip and the days are shorter and we have like time in the evenings when it's dark i will do actual like in person like

39:00.84
smacey
Thanks.

39:10.24
Liron Gertsman
in a nice space like workshop sessions where we talk about camera settings, we talk about composition, we talk about lighting, we actually look in people's cameras and figure out how to set their cameras if that's the level they're at or some people are more interested in like post-processing and editing photos. So I kind of split the trips into field component and like learning component, prioritizing the field time when there's action in the field and prioritizing the learning time when night it's like dark or when the activity isn't there like in the middle of the day.

39:37.82
smacey
Right. Now, this is a bit of an interesting question. ah feel You don't have to you know kind of give away all the secret sauce, but obviously, people are paying a premium for one of those things you mentioned, either to ah you know be around you, to learn more, maybe both of those things.

39:43.93
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

39:54.51
smacey
like That's what people are paying for as opposed to just going and booking a trip to that location themselves and winging it. right like There's a premium for that feature. So how are you? I know this is much more detailed, but figuring out how to price a trip for somebody who has like no idea where to begin.

40:13.14
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, that is that is really, really tough. So the first thing I do when I'm pricing out a trip is obviously you need to figure out how much is it going to cost to to put on that trip. I need to figure out kind of what your like break even numbers are.

40:24.53
smacey
Right.

40:28.11
Liron Gertsman
um The next thing I kind of do is I try to look at the market and I try to find comparable trips. Now, a lot of the trips that I lead, there might not necessarily be like a one-to-one comparable trip in the same spot, but very often times you can find like analogous trips in other parts of the world or, you know, just like similar trips and see where they're priced. And I usually just kind of see that and I try to fall within the market. um I feel like I i honestly am not like the, I'm by no means the biggest expert in like knowing how to price a workshop.

41:05.38
smacey
understood.

41:05.54
Liron Gertsman
I feel like it's constantly something I am like thinking about and and and and trying to figure out. um One thing I do do do with all my trips though, in order to kind of constantly learn more is It's obviously really important to me as like someone who's putting together these trips to know what my clients are thinking after the trip. like Did they get the value that they paid for? So I always send like feedback forms to clients after the trips, and one of those questions is, what did you think of the price point of the workshop? um And were there things you expected to get that you didn't get, or were there things that you got that you didn't expect to get?

41:41.12
Liron Gertsman
And usually people are very happy with the price point of the workshop and everyone says, oh, it was great value, um which is probably where you want to be. Like rather than on the, you want to be, I guess, somewhere in that area. You don't want to be people saying, oh, I think I way overpaid for this. um But it is tough, I think. But I definitely rely on just looking at what are the offerings on the market and kind of placing myself somewhere in line with what I see being the market value.

42:06.76
smacey
Yeah. Yeah. That makes total sense. And then, so obviously, well, maybe not, but are you advertising these on your socials and captions and stories, et cetera? And if so, how and do you have a strategy for that? Is this as simple as mentioning it in the caption with a photo? Um, you know, is there a plan of attack when advertising something you have coming up?

42:25.97
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, that's a really great question. Sorry, I'm just going to do one more exposure, Justin, before I answer.

42:30.87
smacey
No worries.

42:31.98
Liron Gertsman
Sorry, the lighting is changing all the time.

42:34.65
Aaron
You guys like Scorsese over here.

42:37.58
Liron Gertsman
okay

42:38.57
Aaron
Director.

42:39.78
Liron Gertsman
okay um Yeah, so the flow for and so how I approach marketing these trips, um I kind of identify my different audience pools. So usually what I do when I'm going to launch a workshop is there are usually a really core audience of repeat customers that I have um who They are in communication with me enough, whether that's just through Instagram messages or whether they've come on my trips, that they usually have some idea of the trips that I'm like going to do that I haven't necessarily publicly announced yet. So I will usually send out an email to like those people and be like, hey, just so you know, I'm about to launch this trip. um Let me know if you're interested and I can send you more info. So that's kind of like level one.

43:28.97
Liron Gertsman
um Level two is like I would say my mailing list, my email list. um So I will usually send like a general announcement to my email list. um Sometimes I'll segment that like sometimes I'll do one email blast to the people who have already expressed interest in me and in a trip like this. And then I'll send out an email to like my general mailing list, like everyone on the mailing list, packaged with some other stuff like behind the scenes and photo tips of like, okay, this is the workshop announcement. And then usually after those two, three steps is when I'll do like the social media public announcement.

44:02.28
Liron Gertsman
There's kind of, I guess, I don't know if that's like the best way of doing it. That's just kind of like the approach that i I've developed.

44:06.78
smacey
Well, you're not obligated to have to advertise to everyone. I think that's important. Like you're, you're totally allowed to go to people that you've, you've had in the past and just say, Hey, do you want to come? Do you want to come? Do you want to come? And like, you don't, need it doesn't need to be available to everybody.

44:25.94
Liron Gertsman
Yeah, so I think that's definitely part of it. like um i do also I think it also is kind of a mechanism to try to get people to sign up for my mailing list as well from social media. like I will often tease it on social media, be like, I'm gonna be announcing a workshop, sign up for my mailing list to be the first to know sort of thing. um Because it's hard to get your message out to people on social media.

44:46.42
smacey
Right.

44:48.77
Liron Gertsman
like Only a small percentage of your followers are going to see that. And I think it's tough to rely on that from like a business perspective. Like if I need to sell this trip, I can't rely on people hearing about it only on social media. Like I need to be emailing them.

45:02.35
smacey
Right.

45:03.34
Liron Gertsman
So part of it is it's like a

45:03.48
smacey
Through a post that may bomb.

45:05.61
Liron Gertsman
Exactly, right? It's a way to get people to my email list and where I just feel like I better direct communication with people or if i there's something I want people to know, I feel like they're going to see the email. um But also, i I don't know if this is the right approach. It might not be like I'm i'm still learning. I learn every single day doing this, but I also feel like For some reason, I like to save the attention span of like my social media audience for like things that I really need to try show them um sometimes. like I like to maintain a certain level of quality and lack of spamminess, I guess, for lack of a better word on on my social media. So if I don't have to be posting every single day marketing a trip,

45:45.27
Liron Gertsman
I won't like I'd rather just share my favorite work. um So I guess that's also part of the reason I take that approach is because like, if I can fill up a trip just with my mailing list, why burden the 95% of my social media audience that aren't in the market for the trip with like hearing a bunch of ads about the trip.

45:48.73
smacey
Right.

46:02.16
Liron Gertsman
That's kind of mentally one of my justifications for it, but I am totally interested in thoughts and feedback on on what is the right way to do this, because I learn every single day doing this. Even on the trips, one of my favorite things about them is that I get to teach, but I also learn just from like watching my clients and chatting with my clients every single day. so

46:19.92
smacey
Yeah. I know what you mean. I mean, we've done, we've done three now and I can't tell you the amount of people, uh, who are seeing all right some of our Alaska content come out and they're saying, well, I didn't know that that was, that was a thing.

46:33.15
Liron Gertsman
Yeah. the

46:33.85
smacey
I'm sitting here thinking like, cause I'm in my own world. I'm like, you know how hard we like, we promoted that a lot. right Because we're very we're very new at running trips.

46:40.26
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

46:41.23
smacey
we were on We run one a year currently.

46:42.00
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

46:44.40
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

46:44.69
smacey
So I hear exactly what you're saying. If there's a way for you to guaranteed get the word out to people who have confirmed interest, either by signing up for your mailing list or have having gone in the past, i mean that's ahs the the smart way to do it.

46:56.02
Liron Gertsman
yeah

47:01.57
smacey
I mean i think that's the most efficient

47:05.15
Aaron
yeah there's also There's also a benefit to knowing knowing the people that have gone before and knowing the personalities and knowing how to set up a trip or pivot based on the personalities that are going.

47:05.45
Liron Gertsman
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

47:18.59
Aaron
So kind of knowing the characters ahead of time and and maybe getting a repeat customer two or three ah really allows you to cater the trip really nicely, I think, to people versus what we think they will like.

47:23.22
Liron Gertsman
Absolutely.

47:31.74
Aaron
And you have no clue what their real activity level is, what their real food preferences are, what their sleep preferences are, having an idea and pass and and repeat customers must be just a ah stress relief, I would think.

47:52.81
Liron Gertsman
For sure. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's like a balance because I i don't want my trips to be like exclusive. Like I want anyone to be able to join them. Absolutely. Like that's always, so I always do at least do something on my social media, but also it's just easier to market when you exactly you have a mailing list of people who already know are interested. Like it's, it's a much more efficient way of to use my time to like, let them know about the trip and that might sell the trip.

48:10.95
smacey
Right.

48:16.42
Liron Gertsman
So that saves me up from having to draft a bunch of marketing stuff for social media.

48:16.93
smacey
Right.

48:20.91
smacey
Yeah. I hear what you're saying. You want to be fair and you don't want to gatekeep, but you also want to be efficient with your time. So it's this like weird.

48:25.54
Liron Gertsman
Yeah.

48:26.11
smacey
it's This is weird balance, right?

48:27.80
Liron Gertsman
Yeah. Yeah.

48:29.61
smacey
Yeah. And how many.

48:29.95
Liron Gertsman
I'm just going to stop this video and start again. Cause I'm nearing 30 minutes on the second clip.

48:34.99
smacey
Okay. 48.

48:38.47
smacey
34.

48:41.16
Liron Gertsman
Okay.

48:41.60
smacey
We won't go too much longer anyways.

48:43.03
Liron Gertsman
Okay. Pretty good.

48:45.73
smacey
Okay.

48:45.82
Liron Gertsman
Okay. Good.

48:47.30
smacey
How many ah trips do you feel you can handle a year?

48:51.35
Liron Gertsman
That is a really good question. And i'm I'm very much still in the earlier stage of my career. So it is something that I'm still constantly working on is figuring out that work life balance. um I love traveling. I love exploring places. I actually, more than exploring new places, I love getting to know the places that I already know more and more and more which is why I love leading workshops too because you just spend more and more time in these same spots and you get to know them so well and you uncover all the secrets of the wildlife there um or at least as much as the wildlife will reveal. um But it also can be very tiring to constantly be traveling and going on trips and the more time I spend the way as much as I absolutely love doing that the more I usually appreciate coming home at the end of the trip as well and just enjoying some time at home. So

49:38.56
Liron Gertsman
I think I'm honestly already kind of nearing the max capacity of the number of trips I'm doing, like a couple trips per season, like, you know, two, three Eagle workshops in the summer, two, three Great Bear Rainforest trips in the fall, like a couple winter trips, like Ecuador, and then maybe two, a couple of weeks of like owl trips in, in February. And then I do some trips like up north for like birds and wildlife in the Yukon and like early June, so I feel like my calendar year gets pretty full off of what I have, um which is maybe like approaching maybe 10 group trips a year, probably about 10 a year. I don't know if I would push it much further than that to be honest, um because you also need time. You can't just be

50:23.18
Liron Gertsman
a workshop leader in my opinion, because you need to give people the reasons to come on your workshops. And if you spend all of your time just guiding workshops, like yes, I photograph on workshops, but my focus when I'm guiding workshop is like making sure that my clients are happy and getting good photos. So most of the photos that I share that I use to grow my audience are not taken during workshops. They're taken like in between trips. So I need to make sure that I'm allowing myself time to go and do my own personal shoots to create work that is going to draw attention and make people want to sign up for the workshops. And also just to I feel like for like mental health and all that sort of like balance the activities that I'm doing and and um it's important not to be constantly guiding groups of people all the time.

51:05.56
smacey
Right. What's the most important piece of feedback you've gotten from people? Just maybe to wrap up here.

51:10.55
Liron Gertsman
Hmm, that's a really good question.

51:10.83
smacey
and

51:14.22
Liron Gertsman
I can't pinpoint this to like the exact one feedback thing, but one thing that I've definitely learned and that i I've realized through just interactions with people in workshop is that it is good to know when to be direct and not give people options. Like I know that this is gonna be the best photo opportunity. So we are gonna go there for that photo opportunity. so that like to know when to do that and then to know when okay maybe there's a few things we could choose from and when to pull the group and kind of feel out where and what we want to do um and to have the confidence in your own choices of like if this is the best photo opportunity like be confident we are going for that just photo opportunity and not like mu should we should we not just to just to be confident in in your choices and

52:01.21
Liron Gertsman
just have faith in in yourself as a workshop leader. You know this spot, you know these animals, like believe in believe in yourself, I guess is kind of the the thing that I've learned from from my clients. And also, I mean, I kind of been doing this from the start, but... always ask your clients how they're doing because some people are some people are shy and they might have they just can't figure out their autofocus on their camera and then they don't tell you until like day six of a seven day trip that they haven't been able to figure out the autofocus on the camera and then you feel really bad that they did a whole trip without knowing autofocus on the camera so sometimes it's really important to actually go up to people and be like is everything good with your camera settings do you have any questions because sometimes people are a little shy and they won't come up to you and you actually need to go up to them and make sure that everything's going okay

52:45.16
smacey
Right. Liron, this has been so incredibly valuable and filled with information. I think for people who, from the first half of our conversation about that photo, there was lots of nuggets of information in there. I think people should go back and listen to this again. And I'm not just saying that because I'm the co-host of the show.

53:00.23
Liron Gertsman
ah

53:01.26
smacey
ah Seriously, you took us to school today, which is good, especially for people who are interested in running their own workshop. And we appreciate your time. That photograph that we talked about in the first half is brilliant along with your other stuff. And you know we're just appreciative for the hour you've had today. So thanks for coming on.

53:16.47
Liron Gertsman
Oh, thanks so much for having me.

53:16.74
Aaron
Thank you.

53:18.13
Liron Gertsman
And yeah, this was a lot of fun. It's not not normally the the the discussion that I have on a podcast. So this was actually like a first for me to talk about these sorts of more businessy side of things. And yeah, it was a lot of fun.

53:29.81
smacey
Excellent. Till next time.

53:32.14
Liron Gertsman
Till next time.