The Photographer Mindset
The Photographer Mindset
Super Simple Explanation of How to Charge for Both Your Time and for Licensing as a Photographer
In this episode, we unpack the crucial lesson we wish we’d learned earlier in our photography careers, charging not only for our time but also for the rights to use the assets we create. Too often, photographers hand over images or videos, unknowingly leaving clients free to profit while missing out on fair compensation. We dig into the art of licensing, attempting to simply explain how fees vary based on factors like company size, asset usage, and licensing duration, and why it’s essential to clarify that you retain ownership of your work. We also tackle strategies for educating clients, making it clear there’s a difference between paying for your time and paying for the right to use your assets commercially. Lastly, we weigh the benefits of separating time and licensing into clear line items versus presenting clients with a single bundled fee.
Expect to learn:
- why you'll never go back to the old way of just billing only for your time
- how to develop a tailored and adaptive approach to pricing licensing fees
- that licensing sounds more complicated than it really is and that you're capable
- how to get your clients to understand why they pay for your time and licensing
- the proper duration to license your photos (1 year, 3 years, forever, etc.)
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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.
@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
@thephotographermindset
00:01:57.81
Seth Macey
This is the photographer mindset podcast.
00:02:11.07
Seth Macey
I'm half the co-host team Seth Macey.
00:02:13.59
Aaron
I'm the other half, Aaron Mannes.
00:02:16.10
Seth Macey
We blend photography. We blend mindset. It's in the title. It's in the title guys.
00:02:20.44
Aaron
Yeah, just read the title.
00:02:20.77
Seth Macey
Slow hang. You should know that. We're two photographers. We take concepts from our photography life, whether that's income related or passion projects. And we're also students of mindset principles, growth mindset.
00:02:33.88
Seth Macey
We like to read a lot. We like to learn, both of us. I'll speak for both of us. And we like to apply those concepts of of mindfulness outside of our photography practice, bring them into our photography practice and watch it improve our craft. I think that's the gist of the show. And today we're going to talk about licensing.
00:02:52.67
Seth Macey
I think we're going to get more into it. our This is something we've been doing for the last two years, maybe, ah and we figured it would be nice to do an episode for beginners, intermediates, some advice ah that we would like to have given to ourselves two years ago of why you need to license.
00:02:59.82
Aaron
Yeah.
00:03:11.87
Seth Macey
That needs to be your pricing model. That needs to be the structure. It'll save you So much headache, so much so much regret, perhaps when you feel you've done work and you're like, oh my God, I just sold the farm. I'm so stupid, stupid, stupid. Hitting yourself in the head because I've had those moments where you're like, oh man, I should charge way more. And I think we're going to get into the nuances and help you understand if you don't already.
00:03:37.89
Seth Macey
the major difference between hey I'm charging for my time to be here and to click the shutter and to film and for my expertise on set and then you are also charging for the value after the fact ah that your assets provide for who you've performed to work for because those are whether Whether your video or photo assets are or are not directly used for sponsored posts, like even a friendly organic post on social media used by a company you work for could potentially generate thousands of dollars in business and we need to be compensated for that. So we're going to talk about that today and we're going to speak to our former selves because maybe many people, many of you listening are at that stage that we were at. So that I feel like would be very useful for today.
00:04:23.10
Seth Macey
But before we start, I want to show you my calendar. It came in. You want to see it?
00:04:26.48
Aaron
Yeah, I do Bears Yeah, man, that's cool I like the um the cut of it It's very long Yeah, could we could we flip to one month could we I want to see my no my birthday month december the last photo
00:04:27.11
Seth Macey
You don't get to see the whole thing, though, because it'll take too long. But you get to see the cover.
00:04:32.33
Seth Macey
Yeah, there's an excuse for people to ah go subscribe on YouTube. Go see my calendar. You like it?
00:04:44.43
Seth Macey
Yeah, it's pretty cool, eh? So there's a little random month. What's your birthday?
00:04:54.51
Seth Macey
No, I don't want to do December. Actually we'll do December.
00:04:56.23
Aaron
ah
00:04:56.96
Seth Macey
We'll do December, which is your birthday month. And we'll do ah June, which is mine, but I got to move the mic for a sec.
00:04:59.67
Aaron
Yeah. but All right.
00:05:04.84
Seth Macey
All right.
00:05:06.32
Aaron
I'll commentate. He's flipping through.
00:05:08.56
Seth Macey
This is December.
00:05:09.45
Aaron
It's a very long calendar versus a typical square or. Oh, it's double. It's like it's already folded for you.
00:05:17.69
Seth Macey
That's nice. But look, this is from our time in Alaska, the TPM 2024 retreat.
00:05:18.71
Aaron
That is nice.
00:05:22.05
Aaron
Yeah.
00:05:23.39
Seth Macey
Sorry, it's kind of reflective, but that bear, remember that one standing on its haunches, hind legs.
00:05:26.97
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.
00:05:29.03
Seth Macey
Very nice.
00:05:29.53
Aaron
That guy's jacked.
00:05:29.75
Seth Macey
I love doing an episode on how to print a calendar, but it seems like kind of too nuanced to do a whole hour or so about. So if you have questions on how to do a calendar, write to me. Aaron, have you done one before?
00:05:40.41
Aaron
No, I never have.
00:05:40.49
Seth Macey
Sorry. Don't write there and he has no idea what he's doing.
00:05:43.94
Aaron
No, I don't, I don't do calendars.
00:05:44.63
Seth Macey
Right to me. But, you know, to other themes in the podcast, it's a great way to print your work and friends and family or we'll support your work and you can even listen on your website if you can figure out your shipping costs.
00:05:46.81
Aaron
Nope.
00:05:54.31
Seth Macey
All right. Brown bear for December, June. Come on. I bet you I did polar bear for June because.
00:06:01.91
Aaron
I don't do calendars because I don't believe in time. It's a man-made structure.
00:06:04.63
Seth Macey
That's true. Fourth dimension. It's an illusion.
00:06:07.61
Aaron
Yeah.
00:06:07.79
Seth Macey
Uh, Okay, I was right polar bear trudging along the ah flats of Manitoba.
00:06:12.62
Aaron
Oh, that's cool.
00:06:17.14
Aaron
Oh, that's very pretty.
00:06:18.66
Seth Macey
Need, huh?
00:06:19.68
Aaron
Yeah.
00:06:20.31
Seth Macey
My time spent in Manitoba. I love doing calendars, man. it's it's a It's a way to print your work in mass and it's affordable. It's like similar to doing a little gallery and then I get to deliver them and deliver them to people.
00:06:31.46
Seth Macey
I don't do the i don't put them on my website typically because I don't want to deal with like shipping individually. I just print enough, I do a presale, get my numbers, this is what it costs, and then I order the exact amount. I have no inventory left over.
00:06:43.22
Seth Macey
And then I do it on, I charge a little bit more. I charge $45 Canadian, but the paper the paper is so nice that people can print, can cut the photos out after it's eight by 10.
00:06:51.68
Aaron
Hmm.
00:06:52.86
Seth Macey
So it's a common frame size.
00:06:54.90
Aaron
Yeah.
00:06:54.95
Seth Macey
So people could potentially be getting like three prints. So it's a good deal in my opinion. Anyways, onto today's episode.
00:07:01.46
Aaron
I'm interested.
00:07:03.50
Seth Macey
You should.
00:07:03.85
Aaron
I'd like to do one.
00:07:06.36
Seth Macey
Uh, what do you wish you knew first and foremost, looking back, you're speaking to two years ago, Aaron, because obviously now you're charging for certainly put this calendar down. You're charging exclusively your structure, your fee structure is with licensing. What does that mean? What does that mean? First of all?
00:07:29.46
Aaron
Well, it allows, it's it's a license to use. If you think of any sort of license, it's an allowance to use a motor vehicle, firearm, fishing in the right season. ah So it's a license to use your work. I think what's interesting about it, a lot of people might think as they're turning over work, they're turning over ownership. And that kind of protects the ownership of your work. Your work always remains your work unless you turn that aspect over to it, but you're licensing someone to use your work for usually a set amount of time and a set amount of ways. So in those two aspects.
00:08:14.82
Seth Macey
Yeah, that's important before we even go any further that you own your work. There's this common misconception. i wish I wish that I more clearly communicated this to clients in my early days that a lot of the time they're under the assumption that when they got photos or videos, while I was only doing photos back then,
00:08:35.09
Seth Macey
photos delivered to them that it was now their property, which is not the case. They're borrowing your property.
00:08:45.15
Aaron
Right.
00:08:45.20
Seth Macey
And what I also wish I did, and we're going to get into this, is telling them how they are allowed to use your property to generate business in a way that is fair for all of us.
00:08:57.72
Seth Macey
So continue.
00:09:00.81
Aaron
Yeah. And I think it's a way to tell them how to not use your property. in a way that's not fair as well. ah I think, first of all, there's a million different ways you can license work in terms of terms, in terms of usage, in terms of contractual stuff.
00:09:21.34
Aaron
It's just an area where you can really protect what is going on with your work um and in terms of even down to editing or changing colors or cropping or is that allowed?
00:09:34.64
Aaron
Is that not allowed? What are you allowing with your work? I i think that's the simplest way to say it.
00:09:38.97
Seth Macey
Mm hmm.
00:09:41.61
Aaron
What are you allowing with your work?
00:09:44.23
Seth Macey
Yeah, absolutely. Another thing i I feel, beginner, maybe some intermediate photographers are getting wrong, and I did this for so long, was charging for the time that it took me to be on set, pre-production, editing, and then handing the deliverables over. So I was charging for my time. Most people are like, okay, that um makes sense.
00:10:09.71
Seth Macey
But you also need to charge for you charging for your time on set in the field doing all that stuff that you have built the skill set at you rightfully should. The license comes in after the fact which like okay here's here's the bill for my time. Here's the fee to license and do what you want to do with it commercially so that you can generate.
00:10:31.36
Seth Macey
More revenue. I need to be paid a licensing fee that's fair because you're going to make thousands. This is arbitrary based on the size of the company could be tens of thousands could be hundreds of thousands off of these images that I've created and I need to be paid for more than just my time.
00:10:49.57
Seth Macey
that's what i That's what I really needed to understand. And that's when I had those moments of like, stupid, stupid, stupid. These are going to be running as ads. They're going to sell 100 jackets at $300 a jacket.
00:10:56.57
Aaron
Yeah.
00:10:59.62
Seth Macey
And that's you know that's a ton of money. And I've only paid for my time. Silly, silly, silly, silly. So we got to get this out of our heads that we're only billing for our time. We need to bill for our time and we need to bill for the license to essentially generate tons of money off of our work. And I'm not suggesting that they need to be two separate like bills or broken down as two different line items. You can obviously bake that into one invoice, but you need to consider this with your price.
00:11:29.51
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's a great way to kind of just spell it out. I think there's a lot of ways to unpack this and feel comfortable with it, but there are just those two aspects of it.
00:11:42.08
Aaron
And I kind of think of company, like a client versus doing work for a neighbor. A neighbor just asked me to take headshots for her business.
00:11:51.65
Seth Macey
Right.
00:11:51.88
Aaron
ah I'm not going to sit there and be like, well, we want to license these headshots for three years. And no, it's just like, Uh, it took me an hour, like, you know, whatever you want to throw me, honestly, like that that's cool.
00:12:05.20
Aaron
I'm not going to do that, but if I'm doing the same head shots for someone that, uh, is selling those, those modeling shots or what have you, if there's clothing involved or what, you know, and it's a big company and they're, they're going to be using these to run ads and try to sell this exact shirt, um,
00:12:23.63
Seth Macey
Or like a lawyer that's going to be on a billboard on the highway.
00:12:26.26
Aaron
Yeah, garnishing clients from it, those kinds of things.
00:12:27.35
Seth Macey
Right.
00:12:30.66
Aaron
So that's when it becomes like, okay, well, if you're going to use my work, if you're, you're entrusting me to do the work and do it well, and you're agreeing that this work is going to get you business, there's There's a part of that.
00:12:43.89
Aaron
There's a licensing thing. You don't just get to use that forever. Let's make a deal that makes it seem fair. The tricky part, the trickiest part is it's really hard to understand how much return on investment any given entity is going to be getting.
00:13:01.61
Aaron
ah And yeah, satisfied with personally.
00:13:01.80
Seth Macey
Yes. Educating guests to an extent and what you're satisfied with personally, right?
00:13:08.51
Aaron
um but trying your best to understand. and And Seth and I do some simple math sometimes like, okay, the product costs $1,000 a piece.
00:13:21.00
Aaron
Like this is a product that probably sells a lot. Let's just estimate Yeah.
00:13:26.82
Seth Macey
Yeah. Well, let's run with that. So let's say the product costs a thousand dollars, right?
00:13:31.45
Aaron
yeah
00:13:32.04
Seth Macey
And in your licensing agreement, you've said that they're allowed to use them as sponsored Instagram ads.
00:13:36.00
Aaron
Mm-hmm.
00:13:39.60
Seth Macey
Let's say they're photos. Okay. They're really good photos and you're confident. They're confident that it's going to generate them business. They need to generate five sales. Think about it this way.
00:13:51.33
Seth Macey
They need to generate but only five sales. from their marketing campaign, using those photos as an Instagram sponsored post, you know, the annoying things we get in our stories or in our feed to break even, to break even.
00:14:07.83
Aaron
Yeah.
00:14:09.42
Seth Macey
Okay. Anything beyond that is profit for them. And this concept should really help you not be shy and passive with what you charge. because that sometimes can happen.
00:14:22.15
Seth Macey
It's like, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to come in low. So did I get the job? So that I don't get to know.
00:14:28.22
Aaron
Yeah.
00:14:29.67
Seth Macey
And then often what happens is I feel like with, with bigger companies, this is the person, the marketing person on the other end knows this is coming because they've dealt with licensing before on their professional.
00:14:41.12
Seth Macey
I think where you get shock value from the recipient is when you're dealing with maybe a smaller company or a newer company,
00:14:45.33
Aaron
Mhm.
00:14:49.92
Seth Macey
that hasn't dealt in the licensing arena before. So where I'm going with this is you have to help them understand the concept that I just explained. And I'm going to ask you, Aaron, how do you like to help people who aren't photographers or in the creative space who have had that that sticker shock value when you send them your price?
00:15:01.43
Aaron
Mhm. Mhm.
00:15:13.18
Seth Macey
How do you help them understand that? Cause that's really the sticking point a lot of the time, especially if we're new photographers listening, we're not dealing with giant companies just yet.
00:15:21.10
Aaron
Yeah.
00:15:25.22
Seth Macey
It might be smaller ones and we need to have them understand like, Hey, you're going to generate a lot of money off these. If you believe in them.
00:15:33.90
Aaron
Yeah, there is a there's a balance here and there's a dance and get get someone that you can mentor with or look up to or someone that knows or been around the block a little bit even a little bit.
00:15:48.04
Seth Macey
free 30 minute session, one time only. One-on-ones, we do those. There's the plug right there.
00:15:52.75
Aaron
We do them with, we do them with each other. um So yeah, if you're listening, absolutely.
00:15:55.39
Seth Macey
We do do them with each other as well. But if you're listening, take that.
00:15:59.85
Aaron
And what we do though, is we kind of go over the case study. Here's the company. Here's what I know about it. Here's what they're selling. Here's what each spot costs that they're going to be selling.
00:16:12.37
Aaron
Here's how many photographs they want. Here's how long it's going to take me here. You know, here's all my bottom lines.
00:16:17.02
Seth Macey
There's a percentage of marketing budget typically too, which is usually what do you think?
00:16:19.70
Aaron
Yeah. So.
00:16:21.42
Seth Macey
5%, 10% of revenue?
00:16:24.37
Aaron
I think it's, I mean, doing some homework for this episode, I read three to 12%, depending on.
00:16:29.73
Seth Macey
Is the percentage of revenue that goes to the marketing budget, the advertising budget?
00:16:32.26
Aaron
Yeah. That you should try to get.
00:16:36.39
Aaron
Yeah. Well, companies are usually issued to be, if they're trying to grow, should be 10 to 20%.
00:16:37.04
Seth Macey
So there's something to consider.
00:16:41.67
Aaron
But in terms of licensing fee and and return on investment and paying the photographer for their work ah should be upwards of 12%. If you think about that, that could be a giant amount of money depending on what they're selling.
00:16:59.19
Seth Macey
Yeah. And especially back to our example, right? If it was a thousand dollar product and you charge $12,000 for a license to to use these photos for commercial sponsored purposes on social media for an unlimited amount of time, we'll get to that. We talked about timeframes, but for an unlimited amount of time, they get to use these photos commercially, commercially for sponsored posts forever. You're charging $12,000. Their product is a thousand dollars. Let's say cost is half.
00:17:30.01
Seth Macey
So they need to sell 24 products over the lifetime yeah over the lifetime of these of the business with these images to break even. Because I'm saying maybe profit margin is 100%. That's not that outrageous, especially if there's a huge budget for the advertisement behind that they're putting behind your work.
00:17:52.08
Seth Macey
right
00:17:52.82
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:55.04
Seth Macey
So I think the point here is that you can kind of like you can start to realize, okay, they charge this much.
00:17:55.33
Aaron
wi
00:18:00.91
Seth Macey
You can make some educated guesses and then see what is reasonable, and you can come up with a number that is satisfying for you and that isn't just being paid for your time, because that's ridiculous.
00:18:11.79
Seth Macey
I'm going to go back in time and slap myself in the face. because that's not the way to do it. I wish I knew a lot sooner. And that's why you're here listening to this podcast for to to not make the same mistakes and to accelerate your learning.
00:18:20.07
Aaron
Yeah.
00:18:24.22
Seth Macey
If you're interested in income at all, maybe this episode isn't for you. But if you are, you've been making a little bit of passive income, this is important, very important.
00:18:28.45
Aaron
Yeah. And I think as you're pricing out, you do a lot of research. You ask a lot of questions in in your phone calls. It's not just about you. It's like find out as much as you possibly can about how they're using these images or video.
00:18:44.96
Seth Macey
give me some Give me some questions.
00:18:45.13
Aaron
what are
00:18:47.58
Aaron
ah Where are these where are you using this is it just for social media is it gonna be a magazine ads is gonna be on a billboard is gonna be on ah on a subway is it going to be at shay stadium our city field i should say i'm dating myself is yes gonna be on your website is it going to be,
00:18:58.20
Seth Macey
Your website.
00:19:07.08
Seth Macey
YouTube ads.
00:19:07.22
Aaron
The cover of of your Amazon photos, is it going to be spammed on Instagram marketplace? Is it in TikTok shows or shop? ah Just knowing, knowing as much as you possibly can.
00:19:20.81
Aaron
Are you going to be sponsoring these photos? Are you going to be putting money behind them? Are you going to be paying for an advertising?
00:19:25.44
Seth Macey
Yeah.
00:19:26.49
Aaron
Uh, spot and then are they going to be back cover of time magazine? Where are they going to be? I would like to know that because that gives me an idea. All right. Then what's time magazines readership? Okay. Um, that ah each magazine goes out to 1 million subscribers. I'm just making numbers up here, but 1 million numbers are going to see the back cover, uh, give or take. Does it hit everyone? Even if it hits 1% of people that look into it. Okay. What's that mean?
00:19:55.88
Aaron
And you just kind of go from there and from that 1% they sell 10% because they already looked into it. These are all kind of arbitrary, but it puts you in a ballpark of, Hey, if my, if my job does what it's supposed to do, which is sell this product, what's going to be the stretch, the reach of this product, of this advertisement, of the company's position in terms of using these pictures for their own benefit. And from there.
00:20:26.87
Aaron
i I do want to keep jobs. You're right. So there's a balance there, but there is a sort of, Hey, if they sold, maybe it's a bigger product, a thousand dollar thing, whatever that may be a really nice hard drive. If they sold 10 of these with this big push that they're going to put behind my photos, uh,
00:20:51.16
Aaron
i
00:20:53.47
Aaron
I'd be very comfortable saying, well, I want at least the price of one. I want a thousand dollars for them to be able to do this to sell 10 if it's just 10. But now if it's, I feel like they're pushing this really wide stream and it's going to be.
00:21:10.14
Aaron
a hundred to five hundred units. I'm saying, well, what's the price of 10 of them? You know, 10 to 10 to 50. Like what's, what's that region? All right. 50 asking for $5,000 or $50,000 or whatever it may be.
00:21:25.67
Aaron
That doesn't seem right, even though it might be. doesn't like I'm okay not going there right now, but I would like some sort of kickback for not just the work, like you said, but the fact that they're using this to garnish tons of profit.
00:21:40.52
Seth Macey
Mm hmm.
00:21:42.82
Aaron
And it's not a lot. It's like in the 10 percent range. But that's where you have to kind of juggle and balance and feel it out and get as much info as possible and talk to people and and get other examples and look up other photography contracts so you can feel a little bit more comfortable because those numbers can be very big.
00:22:03.40
Aaron
I really recommend listening to the Adam Coppola episode.
00:22:05.98
Seth Macey
Yes.
00:22:07.24
Aaron
I think he mentions it on there. He might have mentioned it off air, um but just as like a There was one photo for a client and it it wasn't a huge client.
00:22:17.47
Aaron
It was, I think a winery or a restaurant and they wanted a shot as their hero shot. And they licensed it again for a few more years for $10,000.
00:22:28.18
Seth Macey
Yeah.
00:22:29.04
Aaron
That's one photo. And that's a like local winery.
00:22:31.52
Seth Macey
And they re-licensed it because they generate they they but the photo was a proof of concept that had done so well for them.
00:22:39.99
Aaron
Right.
00:22:40.91
Seth Macey
And I think this speaks to the idea of duration. How long are you going to license an image for? Because the shorter you license it for, essentially the the the lower your price can be.
00:22:56.47
Seth Macey
but if i if To use your example, what was what was your example? Hard drives for $1,000 if they can sell 10?
00:23:00.48
Aaron
Yeah.
00:23:02.50
Seth Macey
Okay. Well, it's realistic that they can sell 10 within a year. Okay, is it realistic that they can sell 500 within a year with your photos for their advertising budget? Maybe not. So if they can sell 10 within a year, let's charge that. I think your arbitrary number was $1,000. Okay, I can do $1,000, but you licensed them for a year. So in a year, we'll come back and we'll renegotiate if you want to license these or not. And let's say they sold 30.
00:23:29.46
Seth Macey
they're going to re-license those and then you can renegotiate.
00:23:31.02
Aaron
Mm hmm.
00:23:32.84
Seth Macey
Okay. Well, like I'm sure they're not going to tell you we sold 30, but you could always ask some, you know, if they're coming back to you, it's obvious that it was a success and then now you can either up the duration.
00:23:40.41
Aaron
Yeah.
00:23:45.75
Seth Macey
I mean, I'm i'm not speaking from experience in the sense where I've had a renewal because I'm so new to licensing and I guess what, it's typically one, three, five and unlimited.
00:23:51.17
Aaron
Mm.
00:23:54.62
Seth Macey
I would like that to happen in the future. ah But let's say, you know, you want to do unlimited. Okay, well, it's now likely that they can do 500. They can sell 500 hard drives if they can use the if for the remainder of time. So now what are you going to charge?
00:24:14.31
Aaron
Yeah.
00:24:14.43
Seth Macey
I think that that that's the that's the weighing scale of price versus duration. How many are they likely to sell? What's their return on investment going to be? If anything, I hope this conversation just gets people thinking. and I think ultimately what is important is that whatever you charge or bake into your invoice as your licensing fee,
00:24:38.34
Seth Macey
You're ultimately satisfied with it. If everything you allowed them to do with your photos or videos happens and they generate a ton of money, are you going to be satisfied? And the answer is yes, it's the right price. If you're going to be kicking yourself, you're too low.
00:24:57.10
Aaron
Right, right. i ah here's a little Here's a little trick and another thing to think about in terms of term. If I think I have a... Some things age themselves out of the equation anyways. Like style changes, people's look, apparel changes, things change. So I try to up the labeling of Let's say it's this shirt, okay?
00:25:25.92
Aaron
And it's going to be out of style by next year. They're they're not going to be trying to sell this stuff.
00:25:29.13
Seth Macey
a new line, right?
00:25:31.83
Aaron
So I might try to say, I'm going to give you these photos unlimited to get a little bit more price. I'm going to make it a good price, but I know that them using these photos for life to make tons of income and profits probably not going to happen.
00:25:48.60
Aaron
So I'm going to try to, Just ah let them use them for as long as they need to use them and try to get the most out of it. The other end of that gamble is if I have a killer shot, like, oh my, this winery had the most insane sunset and there was, it was a crowd and there was people out there. I have the hero shot of a century for them. They're not going to get a better photograph than this. I might license it for one year.
00:26:15.33
Aaron
Because knowing, good luck finding a replacement for that one. You might come back for 10 years in a row and then say like, we will, we love this so much. It got us so much business. What what would it take to have this unlimitedly?
00:26:29.55
Aaron
What would it have it to just be ours? Would you hand over copyright?
00:26:32.54
Seth Macey
Yeah.
00:26:34.26
Aaron
Would you let us own this? Oh, now we're now we're really talking some money because now you're admitting what the value is to you. So there is a little business in play here.
00:26:46.36
Aaron
ah Ultimately, I like working with companies. I like ah having a relationship. i like things going well. I like them feeling like they got a deal and I got a deal. So there is that balance of where can we land where no matter what happens, I feel good. And no matter what happens for you, you feel like you got a decent deal too.
00:27:09.28
Seth Macey
Yeah, absolutely. So rewinding a bit. How do you help business owners who are also maybe the marketing person, maybe smaller to your companies? How do you help them understand this concept?
00:27:20.87
Seth Macey
Because this is one of those things where you really get it or you don't, at least in the beginning, right?
00:27:27.21
Aaron
Yeah.
00:27:28.79
Seth Macey
How do you, how do you get past that friction?
00:27:35.67
Aaron
I kind of reverse engineer it in a weird way and people might be shaking their head or being like, after I explain this, like, I don't, I don't agree with that. What have you, but.
00:27:50.58
Aaron
I bake the fee in mentally to what I think is most appropriate for the project. So again,
00:28:04.27
Aaron
with this shirt, I know probably in one year, they're not going to really need these photos anymore. So I'm not going to push for unlimited licensing. What I'm going to kind of leverage is the fact that Most photographers would really license each and every photo for a certain amount of time. But what I'm going to do is this project for you to use as much as you want, knowing in my mind that the license is built in because it's basically a year or a season for this clothing line.
00:28:49.12
Aaron
So now it sounds like here's my deal. Here's my price. I'm not going to add any more fees, any more licensing, any more. This is what it is. I know your intention to use this heavily for a year. Good. I hope you sell 9 million shirts. I really do. And if you give me this much for that amount of work, I am more than happy and I will move on.
00:29:14.47
Aaron
So I kind of in certain cases, build it into the price and whether I'm acting like ah I'm doing them a favor by not confusing them with licensing or not has, has done me well. Where at the end of the day, I'm still getting a price where I feel like if it was just charged for the work and then licensing, it would end up to be roughly the same thing.
00:29:41.69
Seth Macey
Yeah. So it's, it's in your overall price, but you're still obviously, of course, letting them know like the the the terms of the license.
00:29:48.42
Aaron
I also to be to be.
00:29:48.57
Seth Macey
You're just not providing two separate.
00:29:51.35
Aaron
Yeah.
00:29:51.48
Seth Macey
Here's the work. Here's the licensing fee. You're just combining them and it's your price, which is naturally higher.
00:29:57.17
Aaron
To be fair, like like Toyota has an approach me to say we want you to take photos of these, you know, $60,000 Land Cruisers and we're hoping to sell. a thousand off of your ad campaign where I might have to sit down and and really even get a ah lawyer involved at that point, ah you know, just to make sure that everyone's protected, especially myself.
00:30:21.19
Aaron
I don't think I would just bake it in at that point, but most
00:30:24.68
Seth Macey
Yeah, that's interesting. what if What if Toyota came to you and said, hey, make a because ah make us a second reel. We'll give you two grand.
00:30:39.86
Aaron
Yeah, I wouldn't be thrilled.
00:30:42.51
Seth Macey
I'd probably say no.
00:30:44.82
Aaron
I think I would. I would too. I would.
00:30:49.73
Seth Macey
yeah like You have to.
00:30:52.38
Aaron
Yeah.
00:30:52.48
Seth Macey
because what how many
00:30:54.84
Aaron
First of all, that's a lot of work if you're gonna do a really good job. 15 second flashy reel with like that's travel, that's getting a car, that's yeah.
00:31:00.97
Seth Macey
but we get into the whole, we get into the whole dichotomy of, yeah, but it's going to be on maybe Toyota collabs with me. Right.
00:31:12.33
Seth Macey
And so many people, so many people are going to see it.
00:31:12.57
Aaron
hard to all all that stuff
00:31:17.46
Seth Macey
Maybe it's going to bring me more work, which is, which is hard.
00:31:22.17
Aaron
You know Ivan that's still a feeling I
00:31:23.39
Seth Macey
I understand that. Why, let me, let me ask you this. Why would you say no to $2,000 from Toyota?
00:31:32.82
Aaron
Because I've been well, I've been in this long enough to know that a 15 second real with a car company that's going to be interesting is a shit ton of work.
00:31:32.90
Seth Macey
to make it real.
00:31:48.14
Aaron
It's like that number alone sounds nice. $2,000 for a 15 second reel, but it's like the planning, the execution, the models, the drivers, the, the weather that needs to cooperate, the different scenery.
00:32:02.88
Aaron
I would want, I would want to do a good job unless it was like, just do a walkthrough of the car for a second. But like beyond that,
00:32:09.88
Seth Macey
Okay. Let's say that let's say, let's say the photographer mindset podcast hosts are so influential. They just want us in front of a car talking about it, but it's going to go on. They're going to get to use it on Toyota's pages and all that stuff.
00:32:23.08
Aaron
Yeah.
00:32:24.09
Seth Macey
$2,000 guys.
00:32:28.01
Aaron
Yeah.
00:32:28.08
Seth Macey
Car is let's say new rav four 60 grand.
00:32:33.22
Aaron
Sec.
00:32:35.91
Aaron
Um.
00:32:37.42
Seth Macey
I'm still thinking no. I don't know. I don't know. I'm torn clearly because like I'm thinking.
00:32:42.52
Aaron
Yeah. are they But here's the question. It's for social medias, it's going to be there in a day and gone. is Are they going to promote it? Are they going to keep it around? for Are they going to love us talking about it so much that they're going to just keep playing it?
00:32:55.82
Aaron
Or is it a 24 hour thing? Boom. Gone.
00:32:58.65
Seth Macey
This is where you get into like how to get good at structuring deals and negotiating. It's like, okay. if if so the The initial reason I say no is because if this cars, like I just did not make a ton on that.
00:33:17.86
Aaron
No.
00:33:17.96
Seth Macey
I don't think that something is always better than nothing. I don't think that's true. I think getting screwed is worse than making nothing and not doing the work.
00:33:24.77
Aaron
know
00:33:27.01
Seth Macey
But here's where I would go with this. This is obviously an extreme example, but you can take this concept. I feel like when you get deals that you don't like, if they're like, we'll give you $2,000 will.
00:33:40.25
Seth Macey
And I said, okay, but you have to give Aaron and I each a car for free.
00:33:48.11
Seth Macey
And like you have to sponsor the podcast for a year if we're going to do this, right? Like I would, I would, I would start to look at as opposed to just taking a shitty deal and being like, ah, ah ra no, it's terrible. I would try and restructure it in a way that made sense.
00:34:06.82
Aaron
Yeah.
00:34:07.54
Seth Macey
where it might not, where it might not be like a licensing fee in the sense we're talking about, but now there's tons of perks. I have a free car or something like that. Now there's value in that deal.
00:34:13.90
Aaron
Sure.
00:34:17.24
Seth Macey
And you can take this concept of, of restructuring and negotiating things.
00:34:17.27
Aaron
sure
00:34:22.83
Seth Macey
I mean, this is an extreme example. I've already said that, but just kind of canoodling things. I know that's not a word to your liking in a way that makes sense. I think that's always better than just being like rap terrible deal walk away.
00:34:35.60
Seth Macey
because, and, and is there a chance for us to continue to work together? Like maybe it's just 2000 now for an easy 15 second reel, but Hey, I just bought a red camera or I didn't actually, I'm just saying, we'd like to film a commercial for you in the future.
00:34:48.55
Seth Macey
And it's like, Oh, well we love you guys. We'd love to talk about that. like Is there opportunity for future relationship building or work? Again, to your point, these are all questions to ask and consider, right?
00:35:02.07
Aaron
Yeah. all All questions. And i think I think be careful with promises of like, hey, if you if you take this low deal, there's going to be lots of work down the road.
00:35:13.54
Aaron
like Be careful of those moves. I think they also be be legit in terms of who you are.
00:35:24.54
Aaron
If if they
00:35:24.78
Seth Macey
hate Toyota. No she's kidding.
00:35:27.19
Aaron
Well, well, no, if to if Toyota asked us as a podcast to, uh, stand in front of it and just say like, uh, this is TPM and we love this rap for we're huge fan.
00:35:29.68
Seth Macey
I know you like it.
00:35:39.51
Seth Macey
we We're taking it for a retreat in Alaska.
00:35:41.73
Aaron
Yeah.
00:35:42.13
Seth Macey
They gave us two Toyota RAV4s.
00:35:44.09
Aaron
If, if that's the case, you have to understand that no offense to us, but literally probably a thousand to a hundred thousand other people could have executed that.
00:35:57.01
Aaron
with the same demographics.
00:35:57.50
Seth Macey
bite your tongue.
00:35:58.73
Aaron
Well, um, I'm just saying, I'm just saying, so here's the thing.
00:35:58.80
Seth Macey
You bite your tongue, sir.
00:36:05.27
Aaron
Uh, I've worked for some clothing brands in terms of being an affiliate. If I went to them and said, Hey, I have a great idea for uh, some, some photos for your clothing.
00:36:18.02
Aaron
They'd laugh me out the door because they'd say, we have, uh, on, on our, uh, on our payroll or affiliate payroll, which is basically like a percent of what people sell, uh, 200 people giving us professional photos.
00:36:35.28
Seth Macey
and We have a creative team in house.
00:36:35.74
Aaron
So. Yeah. And we have people that will do it for like, here's a jacket. Now you have to post two things, you know, for the fall season and they just do it for free or for that jacket, which at costs cost them maybe $20. So there's a army of people that are doing work for free that makes the job harder for everyone else.
00:37:00.98
Aaron
So that's that is part of the balancing game. And that's where licensing comes into play with like bigger and better companies that understand that that is part of the whole schema.
00:37:14.74
Aaron
Like that's part of the whole environment that they understand that.
00:37:17.06
Seth Macey
Yeah.
00:37:20.13
Aaron
So it's like I said, I i dance around it a bit. I've worked with some medium tier bigger companies where
00:37:27.50
Seth Macey
Those are the ones you want to be fair. like The ones who are kind of a relatively around, I don't want to say size of you because I know people will equate that to Instagram followers. This has nothing to do with that. Maybe more so around where you're at in your career or your skill level or your level of experience, expertise. You want to find companies I feel like that are healthy, making good revenue, have a good product, something you're interested in, something you can shoot or film well that has a good budget, that isn't like a startup necessarily that's way in debt to to fuel future growth. or like the other thing people do is they go all the way to Patagonia and it's like, come on, let's find something that's realistic, something that's a good business that makes consistent revenue that needs some good assets or better ones and let's communicate with them of what we can do.
00:38:23.56
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. Yep, I agree. ah Lately, my and it it kind of has been shaped by the types of jobs. It's not, hey, we need 10 photos of ah this this Sony lens. It's just very specific. It's not like that. It's more like, hey, we want you to capture our factory.
00:38:49.38
Aaron
Like come on in for two to three days and just maybe you can get us like a hundred photos for social and ads and things like that. So some of the jobs have been shaped in a way where it's very hard to be like, how am I gonna, how am I gonna put a number on this?
00:39:05.20
Aaron
Because I don't know. I might get a hundred foot.
00:39:06.92
Seth Macey
How can you license factory shots? Like that's how do you monetize a factory shot too?
00:39:11.83
Aaron
Yeah. Or, or, or any business if they're using it to show like how cool their business is. How do I know? They want 100 shots. I might get 60. I might get 300. I don't know that either. So what I've kind of went down to is like, what am I getting paid per hour?
00:39:32.79
Aaron
What am I gonna pay per hour?
00:39:32.91
Seth Macey
Yeah. When it's all said and done.
00:39:34.69
Aaron
And what am I estimating that this is going to take me? And let me kind of do the math on if I got paid X, Y, and Z for an hour of work, I don't care what kind of hour it is.
00:39:46.25
Aaron
Driving, thinking about it, storyboarding, having meetings, shooting, editing, uploading, exporting, making files. I don't care what kind of work, any work that I'm doing for your company.
00:40:02.34
Aaron
I want an hourly wage that I'm very happy with at the end of the day. That I will not be like, well, that sucked because I just got ripped off. So, yeah.
00:40:11.58
Seth Macey
When that number's gonna be different for everyone, I think for you and I, we're somewhere more around like, what, 150?
00:40:17.00
Aaron
Yeah. well it And it depends. And then you say like, Hey, is this product?
00:40:18.78
Seth Macey
It depends. I said on average.
00:40:22.21
Aaron
Is this product going to be selling them a ton of stuff? So now I might say, Oh, who knows? Maybe I say 300 an hour, but I'm not, I'm taking out licensing. It's all baked in, but now I just don't have to worry about like any of that stuff with them.
00:40:31.99
Seth Macey
Yeah.
00:40:35.88
Aaron
I can just say. Hey, anything I'm doing for you, anything I touch for you is $300 an hour. I'm happy as can be. And you're happy and we know what we're dealing with. Here's my invoicing.
00:40:47.15
Aaron
Here's what I did. It's all very transparent.
00:40:49.99
Seth Macey
I see what you're saying.
00:40:50.15
Aaron
There's a, there's a big part of photography and that's kind of like
00:40:51.12
Seth Macey
so Yeah.
00:40:55.26
Aaron
a little bit like made up, right? Like, Oh, I think I, I think in this job is 10,000. I think the next job is 5,000. I think the next job is 1000. It kind of depends where we feel like, Oh, you're going to make a lot more money off the same amount of work.
00:41:08.65
Aaron
So I deserve more, which we do. However, I think to the outsider or someone that doesn't know that it just seems like you're just making up prices. You're taking advantage of us.
00:41:18.97
Aaron
Cause we're, we make a lot of money, but you're doing the same amount of work. So it's like you're fighting that.
00:41:24.61
Seth Macey
but The ratio is constant then in terms of the size of the businesses you're working for.
00:41:30.55
Aaron
It's kind of, imagine a leaf cleanup that went house to house and then was like, well, what's your income? And you're like, all right, well, I, so no matter what your income is, I want, I want 1% to do your entire fall cleanup. So that's where it's like, well, you're doing the same amount of work. Basically you're working, you're cleaning up a yard. So for my house, you want this for the really fancy house on the top of the street, the guys, uh, um,
00:41:59.05
Aaron
Big time lawyer, you're getting $10,000 for leaf cleanup.
00:42:03.80
Seth Macey
Maybe his yard is bigger or I'm the best damn leaf picker upper in the whole state of Connecticut.
00:42:05.94
Aaron
Maybe slightly, but it's kind of like, it's just like, well, you make more, we want more. So I'm just saying like that, that seems to be apparent too. Like you just gotta be careful and dance and think and talk.
00:42:20.74
Aaron
Yeah.
00:42:20.79
Seth Macey
Right. And, and here's the thing. Nobody has to agree to your price.
00:42:27.85
Aaron
Right.
00:42:28.90
Seth Macey
People can say no.
00:42:29.20
Aaron
That. I think that's a good.
00:42:31.35
Seth Macey
You know, it's not like you're not you're not bringing a gun to somebody's head and being like People can say no Chris will be stoked that you confused him with Alex and Lizzie Alex
00:42:35.44
Aaron
No. But. Here's here's another tip, and I heard this the other day from Chris Pieta, who was on our show, and I think this is a good one. Don't. Oh, no, it wasn't. I sent it to you. I sent it to you. It was Adam Hermosi who said.
00:42:54.21
Aaron
Adam or Mozi. ah chris Chris did have a great reel and i even I commented on it. I was like, this was really good stuff. It was like, look out for these red flags. And they were very nuanced with with clients.
00:43:06.40
Aaron
So check out his profile. He often has some really good information in real form.
00:43:10.04
Seth Macey
Can you paraphrase?
00:43:11.49
Aaron
Um, some of it was like the ones that are like, we promise you extra work. Uh, ones that say we could get this for less or our other photographers did this for less. They started bartering right off the bat. I don't remember the other ones, but I remember them being like nuanced and ones that I've run into a little bit. And I was like, Oh, like this was a useful, uh, piece of information for people because it, it wasn't obvious. Anyway, Adam Hermosi said, and I sent it to you.
00:43:39.56
Aaron
Um, as we were negotiating something, Alex, I'm sorry, uh, Adam Coppola.
00:43:40.52
Seth Macey
<unk> it and It's Alex, isn't it? You keep saying Adam.
00:43:44.88
Aaron
I'm thinking Alex Hermosi, Alex Hermosi, Alex Hermosi, not giving him credit. I don't want to be copyright infringed. So I'm saying Adam Hermosi. So no, he can't do anything about it.
00:43:54.60
Seth Macey
Yes, he listens to the photographer mindset podcast.
00:43:56.89
Aaron
Uh,
00:43:58.66
Seth Macey
He just sold a business for a hundred million.
00:44:00.95
Aaron
That'd be amazing.
00:44:02.03
Seth Macey
Right?
00:44:03.37
Aaron
Uh, don't come down on your prices. So think a lot ahead of time. And if they say no, you say, okay, well, thank you. And I think the, the panic sort of like, Oh, well, okay.
00:44:13.98
Aaron
yeah Then I'll do it for less. It devalues you and it really shows them like, Oh, that was like an easy negotiation.
00:44:18.17
Seth Macey
Yeah.
00:44:21.93
Aaron
You just say no. And this guy will completely fold.
00:44:26.60
Seth Macey
Well, however, with the caveat of, cause I just had this, I just had to know that's too expensive for what you're asking. So old me would have been like, shit.
00:44:38.44
Seth Macey
Okay. That sucks. Now I gotta go to the next one.
00:44:41.76
Aaron
What works for you?
00:44:43.87
Seth Macey
Well, I think where people can make the mistake is they'll be like, I really want this job. Okay. I asked for 300 per video.
00:44:55.41
Seth Macey
Now I'm going to ask for 250.
00:44:58.05
Aaron
Right.
00:44:59.61
Seth Macey
And if I'm receiving that email, I'm like, well, how is it suddenly 50 bucks cheaper?
00:45:02.60
Aaron
Yeah.
00:45:04.38
Seth Macey
Were you just trying to rob me?
00:45:05.89
Aaron
Yeah, exactly.
00:45:06.05
Seth Macey
So, but the, so rather than rather than do that, I like to go the route of, here' here's something Here's a more affordable structured plan that offers different pieces of content or less pieces of content. Maybe this scale to cross a longer timeframe is more manageable for your budget. Being solution oriented like you you mentioned, I like to try and restructure things based on the feedback I get of, oh, that was too expensive. Okay, well, is this too expensive? Here's here's a little bit less work for this price.
00:45:43.22
Seth Macey
spread out across this, maybe this is more comfortable for you. Like, let's do something rather than nothing. I like that motto.
00:45:51.88
Aaron
Yeah, I like that too.
00:45:52.63
Seth Macey
If I really enjoy that, like, let's do something rather than nothing. Just because you didn't like my first idea or it was too expensive or whatever, doesn't mean I go up. Okay, next.
00:46:02.76
Aaron
Yeah.
00:46:02.93
Seth Macey
you know I would rather work together in some fashion, even if it's of half the scale I mentioned. Always. I would always rather do that.
00:46:11.28
Aaron
We all know that we have a price that is our original concept of ah let's just use a thousand dollars for 20 photos and two videos and you go they go it's thousands a bit steep for that.
00:46:29.03
Aaron
Again, there's things you can do. If you really want the thousand dollars, you can say like, all right, well, I'm already there. So I'm already doing video. I know I'm going to have extra video. Maybe I throw in, uh, maybe I throw in an extra video and a few extra photos to edit and see if I can sweeten the deal with doing a little bit more work or develop some captions for them. What else can I do to get this?
00:46:52.31
Aaron
Uh, this payday in a sense in, in adding on and, or exactly like you said, like let's spread it out over some time. Uh, let's do maybe there's a less I can do, uh, and do it for longer periods of time.
00:47:07.43
Aaron
Uh, those kinds of things. So I, I think it is.
00:47:08.88
Seth Macey
I need.
00:47:10.94
Aaron
I like that. What you said, would you say, uh, let's do something rather than nothing? Like, yeah.
00:47:14.81
Seth Macey
Let's do something rather than nothing is a great motto and it prevents people from saying, I i got rejected. Okay. it's I guess that's done. Let's move on now.
00:47:23.37
Aaron
Yeah.
00:47:23.56
Seth Macey
Silly rubbish. Figure out a way to structure something that, that makes sense. And then I feel like you can get the, on that next reply, you'll get a good sense of whether they're just not feeling it or maybe they're like, Oh, you know what?
00:47:35.93
Seth Macey
That actually works for us. And you're like, great. Let's continue to work together. Let's make something. Let's do something. Let's create something.
00:47:44.04
Aaron
Yeah, and I think with the work that you have done, everyone out there at this point, try to figure out some sort of case study so you can show people what you are bringing to the table.
00:47:58.11
Aaron
Cause like I said, photographers and videographers look around like there's amazing work being done all the time. You just look on, so you look on Instagram for 10 minutes and you're going to see professional grade video and script writing and talking points and models and photography, like the talent is out there. So I think you have to show.
00:48:23.64
Aaron
what this does and that can be as simple as, uh, like I worked with, uh, telefunking. We all, we all know that I have to call for a second. Hold on.
00:48:34.67
Seth Macey
That was your road, like issuing hard karma.
00:48:34.87
Aaron
Sorry. Yeah.
00:48:39.12
Aaron
That's right.
00:48:39.53
Seth Macey
Freaky.
00:48:40.15
Aaron
Um, but. What just a simple sort of conclusion to our work together was and just quick math. Looking at every post that they posted of my photos, adding up ah some key points and things that I could see. Likes, ah how many times it was sent to other people.
00:49:06.14
Seth Macey
Mm hmm.
00:49:06.34
Aaron
and creating an average in terms of the photos that I took professionally versus their in-house. Now, nothing against their in-house photography. It was just more basic product photography.
00:49:18.13
Aaron
But what they typically do at it probably a 10 to 1 clip in terms of 10 of their photos and then they would throw in one of my kind of wild photos and showing them the statistics.
00:49:18.27
Seth Macey
Right.
00:49:31.52
Aaron
You know, just like, yeah, like, Hey, uh, I thought that was a really, uh, great relationship.
00:49:31.51
Seth Macey
Yeah, objective numbers.
00:49:38.23
Aaron
I just want to share a few things. I think it worked out and kind of, I, you know, otherwise people just kind of like look through things or glance through things. I'm hoping, you know, they thank me for the email.
00:49:49.01
Aaron
They thank me for the work. So they looked at that and they were like, Oh, cool.
00:49:53.25
Seth Macey
Yeah, it's good practice to remind people of the success that you helped participate in for sure.
00:49:54.05
Aaron
That was worth it.
00:49:59.45
Aaron
Yeah. In a nice way without like rubbing it in or being, you know, gloating that that was not the point.
00:50:01.46
Seth Macey
Yes.
00:50:05.13
Aaron
It was like, it did really well.
00:50:05.60
Seth Macey
Or without taking the credit, just like, thank you for the opportunity to work together. It seems like your ideas and our partnership went really well as by these numbers.
00:50:12.24
Aaron
Yeah.
00:50:14.56
Aaron
Yeah.
00:50:14.79
Seth Macey
It's always good to give, you know, good mindset principle for me is give other people the credit.
00:50:22.68
Aaron
Yeah.
00:50:22.78
Seth Macey
make other people look good.
00:50:25.48
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one. Good way to do it too.
00:50:29.71
Seth Macey
You know, I think that serves you very well.
00:50:29.82
Aaron
Okay. This was a great and great idea. I'm glad you, you asked me to help out. Uh, I love the idea, blah, blah, blah. Glad we can execute together.
00:50:40.75
Aaron
Here's what happened.
00:50:42.02
Seth Macey
Yeah. Thank you notes are so good too.
00:50:44.64
Aaron
Yeah.
00:50:44.97
Seth Macey
Just hate, just with no motive, just thanks. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:50:50.72
Aaron
Yeah. And then you have that work and you have that sort of case study for the the next person that wants to.
00:50:55.90
Seth Macey
or for the same person as you're saying, right?
00:50:56.71
Aaron
hire
00:51:00.64
Seth Macey
Like, let's, let's do this again. I'm going, I mean, your stuff with telefunking was very wildlife, the outdoors, colorful stuff.
00:51:08.87
Aaron
Yeah.
00:51:10.50
Seth Macey
Maybe you have another concept in the future for something that's similarly abstract and like, Hey, this did really well last time. What about this?
00:51:17.79
Aaron
yeah
00:51:18.90
Seth Macey
So just rewinding a bit when you were mentioning, uh, help me remember, you were kind of just,
00:51:26.34
Seth Macey
pack. you You were saying, youre here's all the photos, all the work, et cetera, et cetera. It's going to cost you this amount. You're thinking in your mind about the licensing fee and all this stuff. And you're just giving them one price that you're going to be satisfied with when you hand them over the deliverables and the licensing fee. Like you're not overcomplicating it. You're just doing it all in your head.
00:51:49.17
Aaron
Yeah, I might write some things down. I might.
00:51:51.14
Seth Macey
and Well, yes, but you're coming up with it kind of just all You understand what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to help clarify for people.
00:51:58.26
Aaron
Yeah.
00:51:58.60
Seth Macey
I can't kind of find the words that you're, you're pricing it all out, the licensing fee, your work, phone calls, all this stuff. You're taking an educated guess and you're giving them one bill for all of that that says, here you go.
00:52:12.29
Seth Macey
This is the cost of my time and the ability to use all these things forever. Here you go. Yes or no.
00:52:21.03
Aaron
Yeah, ah yeah, let me you you keep talking.
00:52:23.20
Seth Macey
Okay.
00:52:24.92
Aaron
I'm gonna see if I can find the exact verbiage that I just sent to a client that had a very similar um situation like what I'm talking about.
00:52:38.25
Seth Macey
Okay, you want me to keep talking?
00:52:40.20
Aaron
Nope, I found it already.
00:52:41.92
Seth Macey
Oh, it was time for me to practice my stand up.
00:52:43.52
Aaron
You don't talk, you don't talk. Okay, so here's a real life example.
00:52:52.50
Seth Macey
Of what? Sorry.
00:52:54.14
Aaron
Me working at a firm, so it's a business firm, a financial firm, and they wanting, you can, you can make it up.
00:53:02.74
Seth Macey
Can we give the firm a fun name?
00:53:06.58
Seth Macey
Oh, this guy doesn't like to have fun. Sorry guys. Show's over.
00:53:09.73
Aaron
You know, you can have fun. Um, I'm all business today.
00:53:12.32
Seth Macey
No. Jeez.
00:53:14.18
Aaron
Uh, cheesecake for him.
00:53:15.19
Seth Macey
so
00:53:19.54
Seth Macey
Okay.
00:53:21.20
Aaron
Uh, okay. So they want, thanks for meeting, blah, blah, blah. But what they want is team photos, uh, post photos of team members and groups cross various spaces in our office, including team photos.
00:53:33.50
Aaron
ah Action shots of the team, photos of team members interacting, collaborating, meeting with clients, both stage and candid. Office environment details capture our workspace in ways that reflect its welcoming professional environment, focusing on brand details, logo signage, and functional spaces.
00:53:50.62
Aaron
And then our parking lot and office tour.
00:53:53.59
Seth Macey
Okay.
00:53:53.85
Aaron
So, sure.
00:53:53.91
Seth Macey
Can I ask questions as we go along?
00:53:57.34
Seth Macey
Uh, maybe we'll get to this. Are these going to be for mainly their website?
00:54:02.83
Aaron
Yep. And social media and potentially, and potentially ads, but like small, it's not, it's not a national company.
00:54:04.36
Seth Macey
Okay. And probably the reason they're doing this. Okay.
00:54:12.88
Seth Macey
And they're trying to give a personalized touch to cheesecake firm.
00:54:17.11
Aaron
Yes.
00:54:17.85
Seth Macey
because we know so many of those businesses just have stock and it looks crappy.
00:54:21.24
Aaron
Mm hmm.
00:54:22.01
Seth Macey
So they want to obviously showcase that real people work there so that potential clients will see that have a personal connection.
00:54:22.30
Aaron
Mm hmm.
00:54:31.75
Seth Macey
They can potentially generate or, or manage more money and make profit from fees. So that's how what your work, your potential work, how that translates to,
00:54:45.45
Seth Macey
an increase in revenue for them.
00:54:47.94
Aaron
Yes.
00:54:48.08
Seth Macey
I just wanted to make that obvious. Okay.
00:54:50.92
Aaron
And that was the photo stuff. They asked for some video stuff, but that takes more conversation, so I'm not going to go into that.
00:54:57.71
Seth Macey
I just wanted to demonstrate that even though you could potentially, Oh, he's just shooting off a space.
00:54:57.89
Aaron
ah
00:55:03.87
Seth Macey
He's just shooting people there. I kind of wanted to draw a clear path of that in terms of a financial firm, how that definitely generates income.
00:55:12.37
Aaron
Oh, yeah.
00:55:14.98
Aaron
You could be getting huge clients from certain things.
00:55:18.03
Seth Macey
Oh, real people work here. Yeah. Okay. Here's 500 grand of mine.
00:55:20.64
Aaron
Yeah.
00:55:23.72
Aaron
Yeah. Right. Exactly. Oh, they they care about their marketing. They care. Yeah. It it just shows. It trickles down. Okay. So come they were looking for about a hundred photos.
00:55:34.19
Aaron
They said, yeah,
00:55:35.10
Seth Macey
Okay. That's a lot.
00:55:38.53
Aaron
I said, so this is where I just pretty much spelled it out. I said for the photography section, I'm estimating that I would need one to three full days in office to accomplish a large portfolio of photos for your usage. Two days feels like what it would be, but I want to give a range just in case. I'm going to include unlimited licensing in my rate, which will help you keep costs down and feel comfortable that the assets are yours to use without a time limit and or restrictions.
00:56:08.88
Aaron
marketing, social, website, company, pamphlet, et cetera. And I have an asterisk about third party usage, which we can talk about in a second.
00:56:17.81
Seth Macey
to say some of those things again, it's unlimited for how long or sorry, yeah sorry, unlimited usage.
00:56:17.98
Aaron
What?
00:56:20.46
Aaron
Yeah.
00:56:23.57
Aaron
No time, no time limit. Mm hmm.
00:56:27.85
Seth Macey
So unlimited timeframe. What's the usage website socials?
00:56:30.58
Aaron
Marketing, socials, uh, website, company, pamphlet.
00:56:32.46
Seth Macey
Can they sponsor?
00:56:34.97
Aaron
Yeah, sure.
00:56:35.82
Seth Macey
Okay.
00:56:38.20
Seth Macey
Okay.
00:56:38.90
Aaron
With that, I said up to three days, ah what am ah what will I include? Up to three days of shooting, high-resolution photography, 100 photos, editing sample edits to start, and one round of re-edits as needed, unlimited licensing besides their third-party use, delivered organized folders, and organized invoice with work time stamps. I gave a hourly wage and a price cap.
00:57:05.10
Aaron
So I said, I am comfortable because I don't know what this is all going to entail or how much you're going to need of what I can do or maybe I have 300 photos that are great. Do you want me to edit them all? In that case, i want to be I want to be protected and I feel like the range is too variable where if you give a certain number for this job, you can get screwed because it could turn out to be way more than you bargained for or they add more things to it.
00:57:34.16
Aaron
And or it could be way less and then they're hounding you for more stuff, which you don't have. So. Where I felt comfortable was with that hourly price range and thinking of it, thinking of a cap where it felt like, Hey, I did the kind of the quick math.
00:57:45.66
Seth Macey
Can I guess your price?
00:57:52.78
Aaron
If I did three full days. Okay. And then I needed to edit those photos when we're talking about like a hundred photos of editing, it's office and people.
00:58:03.12
Aaron
I don't think I have to go super creative. So I kind of calculate that in and then get all the organization done. Okay. I have my number of how many hours that could be and what.
00:58:16.50
Seth Macey
And now you're thinking about what they can potentially generate in revenue from these.
00:58:21.62
Aaron
Yup.
00:58:22.66
Seth Macey
And you're putting this all into one price.
00:58:26.46
Aaron
While I'm doing an hourly with a price cap where I said, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to charge.
00:58:30.17
Seth Macey
This is so i' not going to go above this.
00:58:32.92
Aaron
Yeah.
00:58:32.95
Seth Macey
Yeah.
00:58:33.20
Aaron
Just so you know, no matter if it takes me three days or one day, I'm not going to go above this price.
00:58:40.28
Seth Macey
So what would your cap be? I'm going to guess.
00:58:49.70
Seth Macey
18,000.
00:58:53.26
Aaron
No, that's too high.
00:58:54.54
Seth Macey
15 was my first thought.
00:58:58.75
Aaron
Slightly lower.
00:59:00.18
Seth Macey
Really?
00:59:01.07
Aaron
Yeah.
00:59:01.54
Seth Macey
I'm curious about this. So I did the math. I did three days, right?
00:59:05.55
Aaron
Mm-hmm.
00:59:07.90
Seth Macey
At, or sorry. Um, eight hours is a full day.
00:59:12.62
Aaron
Yeah, it wouldn't be eight, it's six, I should have said that, I'm sorry.
00:59:13.94
Seth Macey
Okay. ah six Well, i'll I'll run you through my math. We're usually eight hours at 150 an hour. equals $1,200 times three days is 3,600 doubled it for editing file organization, talking to people, all that stuff gave me 7,200. And then I doubled that to 14,400. And then I rounded up to 15 in my head to account for money. They'll generate from licensing and using your images. That was my guess originally.
00:59:48.00
Aaron
Yep. It's not a bad guess.
00:59:52.48
Seth Macey
So I would have guessed, I guess I was going to say 15, and then usually I come in lower than you. So I was like, oh, I'll say 18, but 15 was my initial one. What are you at?
01:00:01.06
Aaron
No, uh, yeah.
01:00:01.53
Seth Macey
12? 10?
01:00:03.08
Aaron
Um, yeah. So my reasoning, I would give my reasoning for this job is I am at, I'm at a price cap of seven grand, which is much lower than what you said, but but here's my thinking.
01:00:19.86
Seth Macey
Yeah. Whoa. What?
01:00:24.64
Aaron
I think it's going to take me two days of shooting. That's what I think in my heart. I don't think it's going to be three. I know editing is not going to take me a full day of that, if if not half the time.
01:00:36.92
Aaron
So I think your math was a little generous in terms of editing time and putting.
01:00:40.26
Seth Macey
I was baking in the phone calls revisions pre-pro.
01:00:42.03
Aaron
to
01:00:44.21
Seth Macey
I don't know.
01:00:44.71
Aaron
It could be, it could be more. So basically what it came down to is $200 an hour. And at the end of the day, I'm okay with that. They're also talking about, we have to remember a ton of video stuff.
01:00:57.70
Aaron
Team introduction videos, service highlights video, wealth advisor, bio did videos, culture, highlight clips, parking lot, office tours, drone video. So there, there is more work that they need.
01:01:09.53
Aaron
This is the photography.
01:01:09.72
Seth Macey
and That's in the future, right?
01:01:11.04
Aaron
Yep. This is the, no, no, no, no, this is the, this is the photography section of it.
01:01:12.15
Seth Macey
Oh god for a second. I thought you that was included as well like Oh, god i'm gonna change my pants I pooped them Yeah
01:01:20.46
Aaron
So what? I really wanted, I really wanted to get in and do a good job and cure the potential bulk.
01:01:31.38
Aaron
And I felt like I was happy with, Hey, for a couple of days work, if I'm leaving there with, you know, six to 10 grand, I'm thrilled.
01:01:42.89
Seth Macey
And that's just it.
01:01:43.10
Aaron
I'm thrilled.
01:01:43.37
Seth Macey
So you're satisfied with it. I think the, uh, and to go back to the start of our conversation, I said, the goal is that you're satisfied with it when all is said and done for the work you've done and how it's being used.
01:01:45.43
Aaron
Yep.
01:01:57.33
Seth Macey
Yes.
01:01:57.48
Aaron
Yeah, no matter what happens, right?
01:01:57.61
Seth Macey
as just I still stand by that. The only thing caveat to that is that when I was first starting out, I was satisfied with making 300 bucks.
01:02:08.52
Seth Macey
Like I was like, whoa.
01:02:09.86
Aaron
We're getting a jacket.
01:02:10.66
Seth Macey
And now I look back and I'm like, or or free sock free socks, free jacket.
01:02:11.90
Aaron
Free socks. My free socks.
01:02:15.82
Seth Macey
And I was like, I'm satisfied with that. That's cool. Because I didn't understand the worth.
01:02:19.84
Aaron
Right.
01:02:20.31
Seth Macey
And so I'm trying, I think what we're trying to do with this conversation is get people to understand the worth, get that concept, understand that, now be satisfied with the new molted version of your brain, right?
01:02:33.03
Seth Macey
So I just kind of wanted to throw that in there because we being satisfied can be, oh my God, they sent me free stuff, like sweet.
01:02:41.18
Aaron
Yeah, yeah.
01:02:41.91
Seth Macey
And that might be fine too. Maybe you're somebody who has a full-time job doing other things and you you have no care in the world about you know making revenue off of this with your camera and you're like, oh, thanks for the free jacket.
01:02:48.97
Aaron
Yeah, I'll take take some pictures.
01:02:55.09
Seth Macey
And there's there's nothing, you know, there's nothing you do. You know, I have no right to tell you how to live or what's right or wrong or any of that stuff. Just know if you're listening to this, that you're potentially hurting people potentially by lowering the bar a bit.
01:03:11.49
Seth Macey
You know, is that fair to say?
01:03:12.40
Aaron
yeah Yeah, it is. It's an unfortunate thing and it creates some fights for the people that are trying to do it professionally. But there's, as you always say, there's tons and tons of clients and you don't, if the one that doesn't understand it, you're in conversations with or going back and forth,
01:03:31.50
Aaron
And they don't, they're just not getting it. Uh, just move on, cut your losses and move on, uh, and, and, or figure it out, figure it out and be happy with, with whatever it is. You know, if you can, if you can finish a job and be like, Oh, I got, I got paid a good amount of money to do that for a couple of days.
01:03:41.41
Seth Macey
Yeah.
01:03:49.36
Aaron
I'm, I'm thrilled. too You know, then it's great.
01:03:51.26
Seth Macey
and No doubt. No doubt so doubt. Should we wrap up?
01:03:57.86
Aaron
Yes.
01:03:59.03
Seth Macey
Okay. We're wrapping up. Thanks for listening to our our episode about licensing. Uh, and Aaron, our Aaron and I are still fairly new to this, uh, but we've had the privilege of talking to people like Adam Kapole on the show who you should go, go back and search for that.
01:04:12.64
Seth Macey
I think it's in 2022, 2022 range of episodes, maybe in February or April of that year. I think my brain is, that's what it's guessing.
01:04:24.21
Aaron
He could probably just search his name.
01:04:24.71
Seth Macey
Listen to that whole out. Pardon of me.
01:04:26.73
Aaron
He could probably just search his name on Spotify.
01:04:28.05
Seth Macey
I know his last name is just hard to spell, Adam Coppola with a C sounded out and it'll probably come up.
01:04:30.01
Aaron
Yeah, Kapole.
01:04:33.64
Seth Macey
And you can listen deep dive for an hour about someone who's been doing this for a lot longer than we have with like six figure contracts. I know most of us listening aren't dealing with that, but he offers a lot of great advice for eye opening, eye opening for both of us.
01:04:46.35
Aaron
Yeah, that episode was eyeopening for both of us. We're like, Oh, you charge for the phone calls and the this and then that.
01:04:51.06
Seth Macey
ah so
01:04:54.13
Aaron
He's like, yeah, I'm working for them.
01:04:55.95
Seth Macey
they ah So yeah, go back go back and listen to that because it changed Aaron and I's world.
01:04:57.11
Aaron
Yeah.
01:05:00.43
Seth Macey
If you're somebody who's interested in how to properly, you know, generating money with your camera and doing it properly in a professional way that makes you compensated fairly beyond just your time. So go listen to that.
01:05:12.40
Aaron
Yeah, I want to add one more tip that we didn't discuss just one more thought.
01:05:13.12
Seth Macey
Aaron and I
01:05:17.82
Aaron
If you get into licensing and you're doing it by timeframe, you have to realize that now you have to somewhat police it as well.
01:05:25.21
Seth Macey
You have to keep track, get to keep track when your licenses expire.
01:05:26.28
Aaron
And that's another That's another job and another thing to think about and another thing to keep track of and another thing to then have conversations or tough conversations.
01:05:28.26
Seth Macey
Yep.
01:05:35.17
Aaron
So if you're saying one year, you have to like timestamp it and keep your eye out. You know, it's, it's, it's an extra part of the the job.
01:05:42.48
Seth Macey
No doubt.
01:05:44.89
Aaron
So just keep that in mind as well.
01:05:48.74
Seth Macey
Yeah, no doubt. And, uh, if you want, again, if you want help looking over a licensing agreement or, I mean, we're not lawyers, but if you want just some advice on how to properly price something out or how to let go about licensing something with a company you're working with, book one of those free 30-minute consults.
01:06:04.77
Aaron
Yep. Yeah. yeah
01:06:06.67
Seth Macey
We may not have all the answers, but we might offer a new perspective and get you thinking a different way for free entirely your first time.
01:06:06.96
Aaron
they
01:06:09.74
Aaron
Heck, they're free.
01:06:12.75
Seth Macey
And we're not emotionally attached to the situation, which is always so helpful. like When I'm emotionally attached to a client or something I really want, Aaron If not, i can he can just give me objective opinions, which is great.
01:06:23.61
Seth Macey
I love that.
01:06:24.11
Aaron
yeah
01:06:24.59
Seth Macey
I love that. Go subscribe on YouTube, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It's a great cost-free effective way to support the show. And it'd be a nice little Christmas gift for us or Hanukkah or whatever you celebrate.
01:06:35.33
Aaron
Oh, a little gift. Yeah.
01:06:37.71
Seth Macey
So give us a little thumbs up.
01:06:38.75
Aaron
Wrap it in a bow, put it in the stocking.
01:06:40.86
Seth Macey
Fill our stocking. Fill our stocking.
01:06:42.05
Aaron
Yeah.
01:06:42.53
Seth Macey
That's it. Give us a little thumbs up. And with that, that's all we got for tonight. We'll see you next time.
01:06:47.22
Aaron
Take care.