Ken Landry: Why the Camera Comes Second to Your Passion Artwork

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The Photographer Mindset is a podcast specifically created for photographers, and those who believe their purpose is to create, inspire and develop into their full potential. The photographer mindset podcast was initiated to help creative individuals understand that their success depends on more than just skill and dedication. In this podcast we learn to develop a winning mindset based on attitude and out of the box thinking strategies so that we can grow our clients, brand recognition & confidence. We want to work smarter towards our goals, not harder.

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The Photographer Mindset

Ken Landry: Why the Camera Comes Second to Your Passion

January 20, 2025 • Seth Macey & Aaron Mannes • Episode 254

In this episode, we chat with Ken Landry (@varsityoverland), an emerging creator who has successfully turned his passion for overlanding into compelling content on social media and YouTube. Ken’s success challenges the common misconception that you need huge numbers to collaborate with brands, proving the power of authenticity and quality storytelling over production value. We discuss how photography and videography became secondary tools to document his primary adventures. We talk about self-identifying or self-labelling ourselves as "professionals", "YouTubers", "Directors", etc. because no one is coming to dub you or officially approve of these titles. We also talk about how waiting for the perfect moment or obsessing over getting things absolutely perfect on the first try holds us back.

Expect to learn:

- why you should just start and avoid trying to get everything right on the first try
- why repetitions and immersion will always be more efficient than theorizing
- why you don't need a huge following to collaborate with brands
- why your primary passions should help shape the creative journey
- why you should self claim your titles (i.e no one is coming to brand you a "pro")

All of Ken's Links: https://www.linktr.ee/varsityoverland/

Sponsor:

Thanks to Tamron for being our lead sponsor this episode! They've extended their Holiday Instant Savings event through January 26th, 2025. Explore the 25-78mm f/2.8 G2 lens with $200 off and deals on many more lenses for your Sony E-mount, Nikon Z, and FUJIFILM X-mount mirrorless cameras by clicking www.tamron-americas.com or by visiting your local Tamron authorized dealer.

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
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INTRO:

00:07.35
Seth Macey
Hey, welcome back to another episode of the The Photographer Mindset podcast. I'm your co-host Seth Macey.

00:10.08
Aaron
I'm your co-host, Aaron Mannes.

00:12.49
Seth Macey
Look what I got. Check this out.

00:15.75
Aaron
Oh.

00:15.93
Seth Macey
CD. Oh, Al.

00:18.50
Aaron
Did you look into the light?

00:19.95
Seth Macey
I stare at stored stareed to my LED light, now I'm blind. Now I got these Swarovski binoculars that I'm super pumped about.

00:24.86
Aaron
Those are beautiful.

00:27.35
Seth Macey
You can see them on YouTube if you're listening on Spotify. I'm going to bring them to Alaska.

00:31.34
Aaron
Nice.

00:31.95
Seth Macey
We're going to spot some bears and be our bear and eagle spotter and shameless plug.

00:34.60
Aaron
Thank you. he

00:36.31
Seth Macey
That's for our trip in July this year. We have two spots left as of right now. Can't promise that on the day this comes out, but as of right now we do. So if you're interested, click the link in our bio to this in the episode description, not our bio.

00:49.93
Seth Macey
Check the link in this episode description. So used to saying that we can buy.

00:52.85
Aaron
Yeah.

00:54.49
Seth Macey
where you can check out the sample itinerary and see if it's something you want to be a part of this year. But yeah, I'm excited about these and I had to show them off. Don't look at the light twice.

01:02.84
Aaron
Yeah.

01:03.67
Seth Macey
It's not funny twice.

01:04.87
Aaron
Those are cool.

01:05.76
Seth Macey
Thank you.

01:06.61
Aaron
Yeah.

01:06.67
Seth Macey
ah Who do we have on the podcast today?

01:08.63
Aaron
We had Ken Landry on the podcast varsity overland.

01:10.53
Seth Macey
It was a good episode. I was really excited about it.

01:13.92
Aaron
Good.

01:14.23
Seth Macey
Yeah, varsity overland.

01:14.74
Aaron
Uh, I work with him at the school. We've been chatting about photography and videography and camping and backpacking and overlanding for the last, I don't know, four or five years. It's been fun to see his growth. We've kind of paralleled in our growth and figuring this whole game out, if you will, ah for the entire time and we bounce things off of each other all the time. What's cool about ken is his passion is the overlanding and his truck you gotta see his truck it's souped up it's awesome uh and he takes it cross country takes it up north he takes it ah ah discovering new england

01:57.51
Aaron
ah back roads, logging roads, old logging, private fire roads, what have you. ah He is constantly exploring and he brings along his video equipment and photography equipment to capture the story, capture the narrative and document the time and the experiences that he's had.

02:12.73
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

02:18.88
Aaron
His YouTube channel does really well. ah His stories are concise and tell a great narrative. It was a pleasure to have on the show and I think we talked about a lot of different aspects than we normally do ah for someone that looks at photography and and videography as a secondary aspect to their actual passion.

02:39.19
Seth Macey
Yeah, we usually have photographers, videographers on where those two things are their primary focus. So it was refreshing today to have somebody on where their primary focus is something else, but needing to have photography and videography skills as a necessity to be able to document the thing officially. So it was almost looking at it in reverse, which was refreshing and interesting and hearing from somebody who I think I said in the episode, we have sometimes we have massive creators on the show, massive in terms of audience size, which is fine. It's you know it's great to hear from those people. I love those conversations, but it's also you know nice sometimes I use the analogy to hear from people who are halfway up the mountain. It's a bit more relatable.

03:22.71
Seth Macey
and Yeah, was there was a lot of gems from this conversation. Ken was very well spoken and we got into a lot of things from, you know, do you need the best gear to tell the best story? And a lot of other things.

03:34.98
Seth Macey
So without further ado, let's get a word from the sponsor and then we'll we hop right in. How about that? One more time.

03:40.71
Aaron
Cool. Oh, wow. You can you can see stuff.

03:44.33
Seth Macey
I'm so excited. All right, let's go.

INTERVIEW:

00:00:20.42
Seth Macey
Aaron, introduce our guests today. What do we got for today?

00:00:23.67
Aaron
Yeah, this is ah Ken Landry. We work together daily at the school. We've talked shop. many a times. I asked him on the show today and the first thing he said was there is a ah a flood of maybe a little bit anxiety knowing that this is a photography podcast um ah by title, but we get into a lot more clearly.

00:00:46.03
Seth Macey
Right.

00:00:51.34
Aaron
But he goes, i I don't know man. I don't like, I don't know. Jargon. I don't know photo talk. I don't know the technicals of it.

00:00:59.47
Seth Macey
You're like, that's perfect.

00:00:59.77
Aaron
And I was like, no, no. we Yeah. We're not, we're not going there.

00:01:03.30
Seth Macey
is

00:01:05.47
Aaron
We're not going there.

00:01:05.76
Seth Macey
right

00:01:06.70
Aaron
Um, Ken is an avid overlander. ah He loves back roads. He loves supping up his truck, doing lots of modifications, ah documenting his journey, ah depending on where he's going and what he's doing.

00:01:23.13
Aaron
He's been on a lot of travels over the last couple of years. This is a relatively new passion, I would say, within the last five years, four years, kind of kind of where it really started getting going.

00:01:30.95
Ken
for Give or take, give or take a couple months, four years.

00:01:35.12
Aaron
Yeah, ah he does a ton with his YouTube channel. um And I think the interesting part of this conversation will be the the need for documenting what he's doing with his brand deals, with his reviews that he's doing. How do you translate a story? How do you translate a narrative? How do you show what you're trying to show without knowing a ton of photography, a ton of video, but you have to be able to have that aspect to your to your toolkit if you're going to promote any sort of passion.

00:02:04.68
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:02:13.33
Aaron
So you kind of think about anyone that's on YouTube, there's this whole aspect of the video, like that's being done, the the editing that's being done. ah For the most part, he's pretty self-taught and I think it's just an interesting story and practice and perfecting, practice and perfecting or trying to get to a point where like it comes easy and you're doing cool things, you're incorporating drone work, you're incorporating a bunch of different things.

00:02:23.24
Seth Macey
Hmm.

00:02:40.63
Aaron
ah and it's just part of the game even though the passion necessarily isn't photography and video I think that's a big part of the whole the pizza pie of the the business if you will of of his

00:02:46.89
Seth Macey
Right?

00:02:55.39
Seth Macey
ah pe The pizza pie.

00:02:56.61
Aaron
Yeah, of his passion. It is a ah big part of it. Might be, I mean, if you argued time-wise from like a camping trip, you might argue the video and the photo part, uh, surmounts it by threefold, fourfold from the actual camping or overlanding.

00:03:15.03
Ken
for sure.

00:03:15.18
Seth Macey
Right.

00:03:16.50
Aaron
So.

00:03:16.51
Ken
Mayor.

00:03:16.53
Seth Macey
Well, I like this today. So this is something we haven't really done. we have a Usually we have photographers, creators on where that's their primary. Creating stuff in in like the commercial sense or just people are photographers who come on the show.

00:03:29.84
Seth Macey
So I like that we have you as a photographer, videographer, as a secondary, as a consequence of doing what you want to do, which is really interesting. I'm excited for that. And I like that you don't have that confidence in, I know my camera inside and out. I know all about this industry because there's a lot of people listening who perhaps have tons of other interests. And maybe we're looking at this backwards where we we forget that the camera is a vessel to tell that story and to express our passion as opposed to I am a photographer and I need to go document stuff. It's no, no, no, I like the stuff and I need the camera as a tool to do this job well.

00:04:06.39
Seth Macey
So I'm really excited for this today. Welcome to the show, Ken. What the hell is overlanding for people who don't know? Give us a good explanation and why you love it so much.

00:04:14.39
Ken
I was waiting for you to ask. There are there are only wrong answers to that question.

00:04:19.98
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:04:20.10
Ken
In fact, yeah. If you were to Google it, you'd get plenty of conflicting you know ideas or conflicting answers. But my interpretation of Overlanding is it's vehicle-based adventure travel.

00:04:34.70
Ken
where you and operate a level of self-sustaining or like self-preservation as far as living out of your vehicle.

00:04:35.10
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:04:44.67
Ken
So you're using your vehicle for you know some length of time and that part is meant to be vague. Some length of time you're traveling, some distance also vague, but you're basically you're you're finding a way to live out of that vehicle in wild spaces and There's going to be a lot of but you know there's a lot of different answers you could get from Google.

00:05:07.30
Ken
There's a lot of different answers you could get from people. And there's a lot of very strong opinions as to what that is. Some people say that overlanding has to be you know moving from continent to continent with the same vehicle, where you like ship it on ah on a you know freight.

00:05:20.49
Aaron
Wow.

00:05:24.78
Ken
And then there's others who say, you know if you've got a tent and you packed it up into your SUV and you went down the street to a local campground, that could be considered overlanding too. So I don't really, you know, I'm of the mindset of let's just be inclusive.

00:05:37.39
Ken
If you want to call it over landing, call it over landing. Um, but at the end of the day, it is, it's travel adventure-based travel out of your vehicle and you are self-sustained, you know, so you can go some period of time sleeping, maybe, maybe even showering out of it.

00:05:50.47
Seth Macey
Excellent.

00:05:53.97
Ken
If you have, you know, the right, the right gadgets, but that's, that's what it is.

00:05:58.85
Aaron
Where'd the, where'd the name come from?

00:05:59.09
Seth Macey
Excellent.

00:06:00.50
Aaron
Varsity Overland.

00:06:02.18
Ken
Uh, there's a, there's a cool answer and there's a lame answer. So I'll start with the, let's start with the lame answer.

00:06:06.00
Aaron
I want the lame one.

00:06:07.45
Seth Macey
Name first so we can end on the cool.

00:06:08.36
Ken
Um, yeah, lame, lame, lame answer for varsity overland is, um, I'm a teacher and I've been an athlete my whole life and you know, the word varsity just came into mind.

00:06:09.34
Aaron
Yeah.

00:06:18.49
Seth Macey
That's not that lame.

00:06:18.54
Ken
So there you go yeah, I mean, so the cool

00:06:19.93
Aaron
It's not that lame.

00:06:21.06
Seth Macey
Have a cool one, better be really cool.

00:06:22.57
Aaron
Oh!

00:06:23.68
Ken
cool one I don't know the cool one is like if you pick if you pick any any sport any level of competition anywhere um Varsity is always like that caliber that you aspire to you know middle school high school college Beyond college if you're if you're competitive and in any thing Varsity is always that level or like people I want to make varsity, you know, you want to be you want to be known as top-tier so I was like i may I'm not calling myself top tier, I am in pursuit of that though.

00:06:58.38
Seth Macey
Nice.

00:06:58.86
Ken
I want to be regarded as, you know, one of the best in the business at some point, you know what I mean? So that's a cool answer.

00:07:08.49
Seth Macey
Very cool.

00:07:08.79
Aaron
Yeah, that is cool.

00:07:09.85
Seth Macey
All right. Part two. Why do you love it so much? And then we'll get into more nuanced questions as the episode progresses.

00:07:15.62
Ken
Yeah, sure. So why do I love overlanding? um It is very opposite of my my kind of my personality, especially my personality from like five years ago. Social media would totally label me as an introvert. I was not the type of person to you know step out outside my my comfort zone in my wheelhouse.

00:07:37.80
Ken
and I had a friend who ended up getting a ah rooftop tent, which is like a vehicle-mounted tent on top of his vehicle a couple years ago. He showed up to ah a camping trip that we went on and I was just like, hey, that thing looks cool. Tell me about it. YouTube'd it. Found that you know people do this. They put a tent on their vehicle and they start touring the country.

00:08:01.73
Ken
and You know, so my wife and I spend about five weeks traveling the country in the summer of 2021. And it was the worst, best decision ever, because I discovered, I discovered that I, what I've been missing essentially, because I was never into traveling.

00:08:14.92
Seth Macey
work best.

00:08:20.76
Ken
I was never really into like wild spaces.

00:08:20.93
Aaron
Huh.

00:08:24.15
Ken
I mean, I go hiking every once in a while, but I kind of caught the bug of like, wow, this is the world, you know? And I just couldn't stop thinking about it after that.

00:08:37.06
Ken
I'd have conversations with Aaron, going back to that school year, I'd have conversations with Aaron, and I'd be like, man, at this very moment, there are bison walking across the Yellowstone National Park.

00:08:51.73
Aaron
Yeah.

00:08:52.38
Ken
How can I stand where I'm standing right now, knowing that something like that is out there? And it just drove me crazy. So I like it because there's a lot to explore.

00:09:03.53
Ken
The world's a big place. And up until a certain point in my life, my world was very small.

00:09:05.08
Seth Macey
Right.

00:09:09.69
Ken
And then at one point I was able to open my eyes and realize what I was missing and how I don't want to miss out on it anymore.

00:09:15.11
Seth Macey
Hmm. It's funny how you don't know what you're missing.

00:09:18.91
Ken
Yeah, exactly.

00:09:20.56
Seth Macey
Right. Right. My question would then go to, okay, so you've found this new thing that you seemingly fall in love with pretty quickly.

00:09:31.41
Ken
Yeah.

00:09:32.28
Seth Macey
What's the gap between I love this thing to I love this thing and it's time to document it visually.

00:09:42.03
Ken
I like stories. So growing up, I always enjoyed the hero's journey kind of storytelling ideas. um And so when I found that other people YouTubers, let's say other people Took this idea of overlanding and used it as their avenue to tell a story I felt like I might be I might be able to do something like that So it was really inspiration from seeing other people do it had I not looked on to YouTube I don't know if I would have come up with the idea myself um But it was you know, was it's a creative outlet

00:10:24.12
Ken
When I was a kid, I used to play around with Windows Movie Maker on my home desktop, oh like middle school and high school in the early days.

00:10:28.70
Seth Macey
Nice.

00:10:31.70
Ken
So I used to, you know, hook up the family camcorder to that and just like shoot some stupid stuff in my backyard. And then I spent a couple hours on it Sunday afternoon and spliced them together.

00:10:42.43
Ken
And, you know, I'd be all excited about what I, what I produced. But maybe aside from my parents, nobody else really cared. You know what I mean? It's not like you could just start showing that off when you go to school the next day. So doing this and putting it out on YouTube allows me to share that with a broader audience.

00:11:00.82
Seth Macey
Right. Aaron, do you want to go or can I, can I keep that?

00:11:03.43
Aaron
Yeah, I'll just put in some color commentary because like because I know him, you know.

00:11:08.49
Seth Macey
and Okay.

00:11:10.51
Aaron
um I just think I think it's cool. I mean, I know Ken as the the health and PE teacher at school. ah That's one Ken I know. And then you watch like a I told him like I ran into the the Vermont trip that he documented and I was like, dude, that was cool.

00:11:28.58
Aaron
Like that was that was far out.

00:11:30.01
Ken
I'm so happy you watched that one because I put so much effort into that video.

00:11:30.30
Aaron
That was

00:11:33.70
Aaron
well Well, but that's the one that like hit me. Like I've seen other ones, but I was like, dude, you're improving. Like it's it's it really shows. And just to see like the different kind of personality and see someone in their element. It's interesting to have that juxtaposition of someone in their day to day job. And Ken and I talk about it all the time, we have a very good job, a very like stable,

00:11:56.64
Aaron
pretty darn good job. You know, it's not killing us. It's it's pretty darn good. ah But to see someone in their element ah in a different light um is is very cool. So I think it is it is neat to see someone find you know what they're doing and find something that they love that they're doing and

00:12:16.15
Seth Macey
Right.

00:12:16.25
Aaron
ah take it to take it to whatever level you can. Like like you said, the aspiration of making varsity. There's no guarantee you're gonna make varsity and when you're trying out for the basketball team, but that's the goal you're trying.

00:12:28.78
Aaron
You're working at it, and you try to figure out how to keep working at it. So um it's been fun. we've We've had parallel journeys, I feel like, in terms of the timeframe of stuff.

00:12:40.79
Aaron
And like it's been fun to, you know, banter and and talk about where we're at and this deal or that deal or this idea or that idea.

00:12:49.27
Ken
Mm hmm.

00:12:51.28
Aaron
ah it's It's been cool to grow kind of on on parallel lines. So it's been nice to see.

00:12:55.91
Seth Macey
Right. Now, i'm gonna Aaron, I'm going to ask you a question. Maybe you've kind of already said it, but it maybe it'll help you elaborate more. Before I ask you that, we obviously have creators of all sizes. And when I say sizes, I'm referring to the quantifiable metric of followers. We had Mark Smith on, who's 2.3 million. you know We have smaller creators on. We don't really care as long as it's going to make for a great episode. And I think we use the analogy sometimes of,

00:13:23.60
Seth Macey
often it's more relatable and helpful and valuable for listeners to get advice from people who are halfway up the mountain as opposed to standing on the peak. Right? Is that fair to say?

00:13:34.03
Aaron
yeah I think so, yeah.

00:13:35.52
Ken
I can agree with that.

00:13:35.69
Seth Macey
And I think this episode is going to fit that mold, but more so just to for you to elaborate even further and hopefully you don't embarrass Ken too much.

00:13:46.20
Seth Macey
But why did you, aside from being able to, obviously you know him and you can vouch for his character and he has a lot of creative work. Why did you want Ken on the show today?

00:13:54.80
Aaron
Yeah. Well, I think what you just said is definitely part of it. Uh, Ken is famous for one line zingers, like at our faculty meetings or just this. I mean, he can, I don't want to embarrass him, but, uh, we have to present it in front of, well, we have to present in front of parents, every open house, uh, in the beginning of the year.

00:14:09.27
Ken
Go for it. Hit me.

00:14:15.99
Aaron
And Ken is a, he just said it.

00:14:17.28
Ken
that's open mike That's open mic night.

00:14:19.05
Aaron
Yeah, he's a but but he comes across as, ah like you said, a quiet introverted, like, I'm not going to throw myself out there. I don't need to be the center of attention. In fact, probably the opposite. And then he would be in front of a stand full of parents. And that could be a little bit intimidating. And he would just come out with like these, I don't know, these funny, like really dry, sarcastic sort of deadpan.

00:14:44.21
Aaron
humorous one-liners. So he's also a teacher. He talks in front of people all the time. I think when I think about bringing a guest onto the show, I hope that we can have a conversation. ah So I was confident in that sense of who he is. ah What I really found interesting in terms of my mind, he mentioned I like telling a story or giving a story. ah The narrative that kept replaying in my head for a while with the idea of Ken coming on it happened to work out perfectly today. But the idea of the fact that he doesn't know the ins and outs of a camera or video or

00:15:25.60
Aaron
you know, Photoshop Lightroom, Premiere Pro, it has not stopped him from creating. And I think that's very interesting and really important to be like, I'm going to push through it and kind of fake it till I make it and learn tips as I go and, and adjust and try to get better.

00:15:45.26
Aaron
But I'm not going to say, like, that's too difficult. I don't, I don't get it, or I don't get my camera menu, or I don't get this or,

00:15:51.76
Seth Macey
Mm hmm.

00:15:53.38
Aaron
You know, hell, um I'm going to use my phone as a video recorder because I'm still can tell a story. ah Nothing has held him back to try to pursue that that passion, I think from from square one to where he is now.

00:15:59.04
Seth Macey
right

00:16:08.72
Aaron
And he probably would admit like I still got a lot of long way to go. Like I'm i'm trying to pursue over landing and that passion. but at the same time I have to like pursue photography and videography and editing and sound design and like all these other things. So he's really tackling two passions at the same time where most our guests are tackling the one third or like video and photography. So it was interesting that that juggle like photography and videography for him is secondary but it's so important to his overall

00:16:43.87
Aaron
Passion and story and quest, if you will. Hero quest, if you will.

00:16:46.65
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:16:48.29
Aaron
So that was kind of my...

00:16:50.62
Seth Macey
Sweet.

00:16:51.73
Aaron
This is this is interesting. This is different.

00:16:54.77
Seth Macey
Yeah. Well, let's, let's jump off there with, uh, photography and videography being secondary. I guess one of my first questions is if photography and videography is secondary to telling the story of overlanding, can you get to a point where you don't need to have the most insane quality? Have you thought about this where this is kind of what I need to know to be able to do the thing that's most important the best I can.

00:17:23.27
Ken
You mean the quality as far as the equipment?

00:17:25.55
Seth Macey
I guess let me phrase it this way. You could get so deep into the nuances of photography and videography in the name of improving. Now there's a trade off with that. That is perhaps As I become more advanced in videography and photography, it requires more time and effort and cognition, which may reduce my ability to simply put a YouTube video together or do the overlanding.

00:17:54.78
Ken
Yeah.

00:17:54.96
Seth Macey
and My question is, if I wasn't clear enough, just I apologize, is have you thought about the fact that there may be a cap to your learning in the photography and videography sense of what's necessary for you to do what you do well or is how do you approach that?

00:18:11.71
Ken
Yeah, I mean, the cap, I don't know if I've, I imagine I'll i'll stumble across a cap at some point.

00:18:19.58
Seth Macey
Right.

00:18:20.02
Ken
um I know that, you know, as the, as like the gear, the camera, the drones as the technology gets more complex or ah as I'm required to learn more. There is an element of that you said, does it take away from the actual experience, the overlanding?

00:18:35.49
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:18:36.85
Ken
And I'd say for sure it does. And I, I've mentioned that in in a few of my videos, uh, just about, you know, how, how easy it is to get lost in getting the shot, for example, or setting up the drone to simply just drive by or whatever and like kind of forgetting that like hey there's a mountaintop over there you know hey the sunset right now hey you're in the middle of the wilderness and you know maine for example you know and like enjoying just being out there and so i think there there there might be a cap at some point i haven't certainly haven't reached it yet um but i do i think that is why i i tend to not

00:19:09.82
Seth Macey
Right.

00:19:19.52
Seth Macey
Mhm.

00:19:22.35
Ken
delve so hard into the camera aspect, you know, like I have, I have a camera, I have a ah Sony A73. It's a little, it's a little dated, but it is, it is, it's new to me. um And it is taking me a long time to like experiment and learn that camera simply because

00:19:43.68
Ken
of just I know the phones going to be easy and I know that using the phone is also going to help me enjoy the experience while I'm there. So right now the phones doing the job.

00:19:56.86
Ken
So I don't know if I i haven't hit a cap yet but I imagine

00:20:00.10
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:20:00.69
Ken
certainly exists. I know that people go, I mean, there's productions, there's, there's companies that go out and they do this and that's their, that's their living, you know, they get a crew of seven to eight people out, and they go and they do like an overland documentary.

00:20:14.69
Ken
And if God, you know,

00:20:14.73
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:20:17.72
Ken
cinematic you know top of the line camera gear and drones and everything you know ten thousand dollar drones and you know they that's their job and you often wonder how much are you enjoying let's say your trip to Iceland um when you have that responsibility of the gear and and getting it right I don't know it's it It's where where does that pat where's that line exist between your your passion and your job, I guess you could say.

00:20:47.76
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:20:48.28
Ken
At some point, it does work at some point. And right now, it's not to me. I'm still enjoying it, so.

00:20:55.19
Seth Macey
I think people can conflate the idea of the production value of what you just described. They can mistake that for being automatically better.

00:21:05.90
Ken
Mm-hmm.

00:21:07.01
Seth Macey
Whereas let's say a vlog shot on an iPhone isn't necessarily, necessarily worse overall, maybe in terms of production value, but the overall product is just simply different.

00:21:21.61
Ken
sure

00:21:22.13
Seth Macey
I think we can get caught up in, this looks amazing.

00:21:22.17
Aaron
Yeah.

00:21:24.61
Seth Macey
It was shot on a, you know, Ember free fly. And, uh, so it has to be better. I mean, that's the, that's where I need to get to, but then you have the ton of successful creators who are just making front facing iPhone vlog style videos.

00:21:39.28
Seth Macey
And that's not any worse or better. It's just simply different.

00:21:42.22
Ken
Yeah, and and I think, you know, I think the difference really comes down to what I'm noticing currently is working working with brands.

00:21:52.75
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:21:53.39
Ken
um you know so Some brands, they kind of you know they might kind of be like, ah, it's a phone. maybe we don't want we Maybe we don't want to pursue this guy because we can tell that the could tell that the camera's shaky here or there. We can tell that the the photo might be grainy or whatever in this regard. no let's Let's go over, let's work with the guy that's that's using the c symptoma and cinematic or something like that.

00:22:19.37
Ken
so As far as storytelling, if you're a good storyteller, you can, you can do it right. I mean, yeah, you could totally just do it on a phone.

00:22:26.37
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:22:27.45
Ken
Um, but as far as working with brands, you know, some people are forced to evolve with their gear simply because that's what the brands are looking for.

00:22:35.59
Seth Macey
I guess it depends what the product is.

00:22:36.91
Aaron
you.

00:22:37.19
Seth Macey
Like, let's say your personality is one in a billion. A brand may not care that it's on an iPhone, right?

00:22:44.07
Ken
Okay.

00:22:44.77
Seth Macey
I think it's just like, it's.

00:22:44.87
Ken
Yeah, sure.

00:22:47.73
Seth Macey
Just something to think about how, uh, like what is the product and does the, the, the production value contribute to that negatively or positively, or does it have a factor at all?

00:22:59.30
Seth Macey
I think it's something to consider as well.

00:23:00.54
Aaron
Yeah.

00:23:01.41
Ken
Mm hmm.

00:23:01.43
Aaron
I think some of those shows I'm thinking of, uh, like Bear Grylls, Man vs. Wild, uh, Alone or Survive. I forget that other one where it's like he has the one GoPro, you know, and and that's the entire.

00:23:09.49
Seth Macey
Yeah. And you could watch it for hours.

00:23:16.41
Aaron
Yeah, because there's a great narrative, great story, great interviews, vlog style sort of ah feature where it's not it's not super fancy, it's shaky, it's this, it's that, it's but but it i mean it did obviously very well.

00:23:19.32
Seth Macey
Right.

00:23:33.17
Aaron
And people followed it, and people watched it, and people liked it.

00:23:35.88
Seth Macey
Right.

00:23:36.60
Ken
Yeah.

00:23:36.62
Seth Macey
And then you have like planet earth or blue planet where it's taking four years to be filmed and it's on these crazy gyro mounted cannon, 51,000 millimeter lenses.

00:23:36.88
Aaron
so

00:23:44.76
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:48.77
Seth Macey
And, uh, yeah, yeah, I hear you.

00:23:48.93
Aaron
Yeah.

00:23:51.00
Seth Macey
I think what's also interesting, Kenny, you can weigh in on this is, uh, the balance between my skillset right now is good enough and

00:24:03.93
Seth Macey
pushing, pushing your learning to learning new skills. I mean, cause you could just say, Oh, this is good enough. I'm putting out videos every, every week. Great on my iPhone.

00:24:12.11
Ken
Mm-hmm.

00:24:13.02
Seth Macey
And this is awesome. But there's the urge to learn a new skill and push it.

00:24:16.67
Ken
Yeah.

00:24:21.94
Seth Macey
So this is odd balance between, I don't want to say apathy, but kind of being comfortable where you're at.

00:24:21.97
Ken
Right.

00:24:27.85
Ken
Yep.

00:24:27.92
Aaron
Yeah.

00:24:28.02
Seth Macey
And yeah,

00:24:28.81
Ken
You can get, it's, you know, complacency, I guess. You could...

00:24:31.96
Seth Macey
Sure. and Or how much further do I push this?

00:24:32.47
Aaron
Yeah.

00:24:34.93
Ken
Right.

00:24:35.23
Aaron
Or how many brand deals do I lose before I go, okay, I have to figure something out.

00:24:35.73
Ken
Yeah, I think it...

00:24:39.14
Ken
Yeah.

00:24:41.08
Seth Macey
Has this happened? You're laughing.

00:24:43.35
Ken
um it no no it hasn't happened i think i think i tend to instead of pushing the let's say that the camera quality for example i'll push the the editing you know i i always been learning and that's the that and i feel like that that's lends more to like the creative piece of my brain you know because i could take a anything that i filmed for my phone and put it on you know premiere pro and if i

00:24:56.42
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:25:13.93
Ken
learn enough and I go through enough features I could I could do anything with that footage you know so I guess it kind of speaks to what you're saying Seth is like it doesn't have to be the most expensive gear you could you could do it if you've you got the personality that helps but it also if you can if you could piece your footage together from a phone because you're willing to grow your skills in another aspect. Maybe you're not growing your skills with you know learning the ins and outs of ah of a fancy camera. Maybe instead you're growing your skills with your your editing software or your knowledge of that editing software. That can that can give you leaps and bounds too.

00:25:54.41
Seth Macey
Yeah, I guess this also speaks to, do you become an expert and really good and dialed in in one area or do you try and be well-rounded? That's something I struggle with sometimes.

00:26:03.61
Ken
For sure. i don't I don't know if anyone would have a

00:26:06.04
Aaron
yeah

00:26:06.66
Ken
hundred percent

00:26:06.70
Seth Macey
Well, Aaron has the scorecard, the self-reflective scorecard he used to mention. How am I at editing? How am I at storytelling? How am I at color grading, et cetera? Would you rather...

00:26:16.87
Aaron
Yeah.

00:26:17.48
Seth Macey
I'll present this to you guys. Would you rather be Cs across the board? Okay. In hypothetical categories for being a video editor, photographer, storyteller, YouTuber, et cetera.

00:26:25.87
Ken
A hundred percent.

00:26:27.59
Seth Macey
You'd rather be, let's go with B's, B's across the board in all of those. Or do you rather have a couple A's and you're like a D and D's and the other things.

00:26:37.45
Aaron
For me, I like at least being level. ah where Where that concept came up for me was really golf and learning golf. there's there's You have your driving off the tee, you have your iron play, you have your short game, you have your putting. And it just seemed like if your driving was really good for one week, your putting was awful. If your putting was really good, your iron game was awful. like you just It's very hard for the whole game to match up.

00:27:06.12
Aaron
And in my mind, it was like, where do I need to work to keep everything pretty much at the B level?

00:27:12.53
Seth Macey
Mm hmm.

00:27:12.59
Aaron
So that because one one F or D in that sport ruins the rest. ah So keeping that analogy with photography, I just felt like And let's call it photography editing, like taking the picture, editing, videography, editing, storytelling, whatever it may be, like whatever categories you want. Uh, I didn't want any glaring weaknesses. I wanted to get to the A level with direct focus on any given opportunity. So someone says, Hey, we need this video. I go, okay. Well, I'm a C plus right now, but I can get up to an A minus if I focus on it.

00:27:55.56
Aaron
Right?

00:27:55.78
Seth Macey
and

00:27:56.63
Aaron
If I'm at a D or an F in something, I might miss some of those deals or I might miss some of those opportunities because now I'm not confident in myself. And I just feel like if I can keep myself at a good enough level, I can bump up to A's wherever I need to be.

00:28:14.10
Seth Macey
Good answer.

00:28:14.92
Aaron
Thanks.

00:28:15.69
Ken
Yeah, I like that. I like that. I feel like, I don't know. I don't really know if I'd say what I'd say. Do I take bees across the board or not? Bees are good. I don't mind bees.

00:28:26.46
Aaron
Yeah, they're not bad.

00:28:27.07
Ken
I was a solid bee. When I was growing up, I was growing up.

00:28:28.44
Seth Macey
There's your sound bite. Aaron's like three minutes long.

00:28:30.21
Ken
I ah grew up solid bees.

00:28:30.71
Seth Macey
He goes, I'll take bees.

00:28:32.55
Aaron
These are good.

00:28:35.10
Seth Macey
Well, let me let me ask,

00:28:36.21
Ken
I'm a solid bee kid. I mean,

00:28:38.27
Aaron
Yeah.

00:28:38.64
Ken
I think it depends there's a lot I mean yeah you can get into the complications of it but there's a lot of like there's a lot of variables that you can deal with too you know like think about you could do this with photography you know if we're talking about wildlife or or natural spaces for example but then that that natural spaces could apply to to overlanding too if you're in a location geographically, you know your your home base isn't exactly the most beautiful place on earth, but that is all you have to work with.

00:29:13.16
Ken
Maybe you maybe you'd want yourself to be an A plus in that storytelling regard. Or you might look at it from an editing standpoint, you know you'd want to be an A plus with your editing so that even if you took a picture of a crow you know on the sidewalk,

00:29:20.56
Aaron
That's a good point.

00:29:30.33
Ken
it looked that'd be a bomb photo, you know what I mean? So there's a couple of pieces in the background that could even affect that choice.

00:29:38.29
Aaron
Yeah.

00:29:39.20
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:29:39.22
Aaron
I also think, I also think for you, what your passion is, again, is overlanding and surviving out of your car. And there's something to be said for like, I want as little gear as I possibly can take.

00:29:50.18
Aaron
I don't want to be charging tons of batteries. I don't want to be losing lens caps, lenses. ah

00:29:56.94
Ken
That's so, that's so opposite of how people actually feel about that, about overlanding though.

00:30:02.10
Aaron
So they want to take as much gear as possible.

00:30:03.55
Ken
yeah They, kitchen sink, two kitchen sinks if you can.

00:30:06.18
Aaron
Damn it.

00:30:06.46
Ken
That's, it's, it's, it's.

00:30:07.79
Seth Macey
for videography purposes or just for the overlanding purposes?

00:30:10.19
Ken
just for the overlanding piece, you know? But I think because of some some really large scale videography overlanders, um some some of the really big brands or big companies, they they're going above and beyond. They're raising the bar so much higher than anyone ever anticipated that it makes the weekend warriors like myself sometimes feel like That's, I need to aspire to that. I need to have a dual battery system in my vehicle that is able to charge all three of my extra cameras, my two drones, all this other stuff in order to make my YouTube video.

00:30:53.63
Seth Macey
as good as that. So yeah, it's like, so always, somebody's always trying to sell you something, whether it's on purpose or by accident.

00:30:59.31
Ken
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, so just like this just popped in my head, but going back to something that Aaron said a little while back about like, um you know just using the phone because that's what you got and just going out and doing it and and telling the story as best you can because that's what you have available. Overlanding has that aspect too. you know A lot of people think that they need to I'm going to wait to take that trip.

00:31:24.64
Ken
You know, I'm going to wait to go to Alaska. I'm going to wait to do this or this because I don't, my vehicle's not, I'm not done building my vehicle or I don't have the right tent yet or I don't have, you know what I mean?

00:31:35.52
Ken
So like, it's kind of that same idea.

00:31:36.28
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:31:38.65
Ken
It's, you know, why, why wait? Don't wait. All you're doing is killing time and you know, and who knows what could happen tomorrow. So, you know, just if you've got a,

00:31:46.22
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:31:49.22
Ken
Honda Civic, you could still drive to a national park, pay the fee, and spend spend the night you know in a canyon if you wanted to.

00:31:51.31
Aaron
Yeah.

00:31:57.32
Seth Macey
Yeah. And if you were creating content around that, I feel like people would respect the authenticity too. This is who I am. This is what I got. This is me.

00:32:03.16
Ken
For sure, for sure.

00:32:04.38
Seth Macey
And, uh, yeah, what you said is so interesting. You can, you can wait your life away, right? I don't have a mirrorless camera yet. I should, I'm, I have no business pitching brands. Oh, I don't have the right wheels for my Tacoma.

00:32:17.66
Ken
Yeah.

00:32:18.20
Seth Macey
It's not time to, to take, do a photo shoot. And then you just kind of, you stagnate forever, right?

00:32:24.19
Ken
Right.

00:32:24.20
Seth Macey
Because you can come up with a million and one excuses. wherever you're at, I feel like in your career and your pursuit of your passion, and you can always find some reason to not do something. And this goes back to, you know, stoicism, the obstacles of the way using that thing that you see as a, um, as an ailment.

00:32:51.22
Seth Macey
as part of the story potentially or as a way to, to, to power through and build confidence or to slow down that, uh, that part of your brain that comes up with reasons why you shouldn't begin or com commence something.

00:33:06.81
Seth Macey
Totally right.

00:33:06.85
Ken
yeah yeah I mean like you know photography if there's if there's someone listening right now that wants to get into photography but they don't have the best camera that they're hoping to have you know or videography or whatever or someone aspiring to be a content creator they're waiting they're like oh I'm gonna I'm gonna start I'm gonna start when you know like why not just start now with whatever you got

00:33:07.37
Seth Macey
Yeah, absolutely.

00:33:08.04
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's cool.

00:33:33.14
Seth Macey
Yeah, or I'm going to get everything perfect.

00:33:35.06
Aaron
Yeah.

00:33:35.50
Seth Macey
We try to like, I'm going to get everything right on the first attempt. I'm not going to make any mistakes. I'm going to get it perfect exactly how that person in that YouTube video showed me. Even though I have zero experience, I have no reps, no repetition.

00:33:45.73
Ken
Yeah.

00:33:48.97
Seth Macey
I'm just going to, I'm going to plan it so long and for so hard.

00:33:49.20
Aaron
Yeah.

00:33:52.47
Seth Macey
that you you can convince yourself that you're being productive and it's it's just busy work, right?

00:33:56.44
Aaron
yeah

00:33:58.45
Seth Macey
There's no better substitute for repetitions, being a rookie, being bad at things, and just continuing to progress from the bottom up. I truly believe that.

00:34:09.21
Ken
Yeah.

00:34:09.62
Aaron
Yeah, and in and Ken's way I gotta say is perfecting the storytelling, the craft, the shots, all that stuff stays the same no matter what camera I put in his hands in terms of angles, what have you.

00:34:22.64
Aaron
Like he can work on 98% of making a video ah dependent on whatever special camera he has or whatever

00:34:33.51
Ken
Yeah.

00:34:35.95
Aaron
$3,000 lens he has or whatever cine camera he has. So that that's an easy place to trade in, right? Like he has all the skills. Now it's let me let me spend the money on this camera and I can use it to its fullest ability.

00:34:54.89
Aaron
There's there's a group of people like audio files right and they set up their vinyl records and the perfect Spacing of their speakers some people this is not a joke Rewire their entire house to get clean electricity with like gold wiring thinking that's going to adjust the the experience.

00:35:16.67
Aaron
and It adjusts the hearing, the ah the sound of the vinyl record.

00:35:21.07
Ken
quality

00:35:23.27
Aaron
There are so many variables to a vinyl record setup. You have the the diamond needle, the cartridge, the arm, the mat.

00:35:27.33
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:35:31.64
Aaron
The preamp, the amp, the speakers, the wires, the electric, like so many different things. The room that you're in, you would look up these rooms, they're hilarious because it's like, good Lord. Like you have gone overboard to try to get chasing this dragon of like perfect sound, but the experience.

00:35:49.50
Aaron
I feel like gets lost, which is putting on a record, maybe having a drink or a tea, having a fire and listening to some music and relaxing, right?

00:35:58.78
Seth Macey
right

00:35:59.89
Ken
Right.

00:36:00.13
Aaron
So we can get stuck in like this. Everything has to be perfect. There's no point in doing it.

00:36:05.99
Seth Macey
Right.

00:36:06.12
Aaron
Um, I got that. I got that way with guitars a little bit where it's like, instead of practicing guitar, I wanted to buy the next guitar to have like a little bit of a different sound.

00:36:18.06
Seth Macey
Or string it absolutely perfect.

00:36:20.01
Aaron
Yeah. And it would, it would excite me for a month and then I would put it down again because it's not the essence of the thing. The essence of the thing is playing and and practicing and the sweat and the grinding.

00:36:30.42
Seth Macey
Right.

00:36:34.47
Aaron
The gear to a point is sure important, but not, not the lion's share of the experience.

00:36:43.19
Ken
Yeah.

00:36:43.28
Seth Macey
You know what I will say on this? i i would agree I agree with you to an extent, but I'll push back on this. I feel like if, let's use your audio file example, redoing the wiring in your house and the diamond needle, if that accents the experience and you're still finding the time to enjoy the music somehow,

00:37:02.05
Seth Macey
Like maybe maybe that prep work or all those supplementary activities are part of the fun process for you. Like maybe it's not a drag or maybe like spending two hours in the in the kitchen cooking or chopping onions and making marinara sauce.

00:37:11.47
Aaron
Yeah.

00:37:13.42
Ken
I have.

00:37:18.75
Aaron
yeah

00:37:18.80
Seth Macey
and Maybe that makes the meal much better. I think I would agree with you in the sense that if all you're doing is rewiring your house and you're never listening to the records, that's when it's gotten away from you.

00:37:29.85
Aaron
Or if you're just chasing, I need this. ah It could sound better.

00:37:32.27
Seth Macey
Better, better, better, better, better, better, better.

00:37:32.88
Aaron
It could sound better. It could sound better.

00:37:33.84
Seth Macey
Yeah. like just yeah Yeah.

00:37:35.11
Aaron
Yeah.

00:37:35.92
Ken
I think the the accenting to what you just said, Seth, the accenting of it, you know, like we were rewiring and

00:37:35.92
Seth Macey
Yeah. I hear you.

00:37:36.14
Aaron
yeah

00:37:42.44
Ken
if it does you know accent the experience and make it that much better. I agree, but you only know that it made it that much better because maybe you were able to experience it without it.

00:37:56.58
Seth Macey
Fair.

00:37:57.33
Ken
You know what I mean? So there is that level too and in in just getting out and taking photos, not knowing what you're doing, videography without really knowing what you're doing, editing and just figuring out as you go, like that newbie experience is purposeful because you almost, at that point, you get your direction.

00:38:15.23
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:38:17.98
Ken
You know what needs to be improved. I think if, if people wait and they just collect their gear, you know, I'm not going to use a drone unless I can afford the $5,000 one or what, $10,000 one or whatever, then maybe they ended up spending the money needlessly and, and, you know, getting something else would have been just fine, but they never knew that they don't have anything to compare it to.

00:38:37.50
Aaron
Right.

00:38:42.30
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:38:43.41
Ken
they they only They only have the best in that way, you know what I mean?

00:38:49.89
Seth Macey
I treat this idea of theorizing things to death as learning a language. So for example, I could do Duolingo every single day for 12 months. Spanish, let's see, let's say, and then you could plot me in Spain, or we could have Ken speak to someone, a Spanish person for a month.

00:39:14.57
Ken
Mhm.

00:39:14.94
Seth Macey
Like who do you think's going to have a better grasp of the language?

00:39:17.72
Ken
There you go. Yeah.

00:39:18.97
Seth Macey
It's the same. That's just how I always think about it. Um, in terms of, I have a question about photography and videography since it's secondary to you. Uh, it's a means for you to document the the primary thing, which is overlanding, which we've mentioned.

00:39:34.22
Ken
Mhm.

00:39:35.73
Seth Macey
How do you, how do you view photography and videography? Is it like, Oh, this is a necessity for me to be, be able to do what I want to do. Or is there an effort to try to fall not fall in love with it, but is there an effort to try to like it?

00:39:53.37
Ken
There's an effort to try. A part of me, when you started speaking, a part of me thought, you know, if I could hire someone to follow me around and do it for me while I'm on the experience, think that I think that'd be preferred, to be honest.

00:40:01.70
Seth Macey
Right.

00:40:08.19
Seth Macey
So getting to a place where you can delegate.

00:40:10.53
Ken
Yeah. Um, and, and only to an extent though, yeah, it would be, it would certainly be a delegation.

00:40:11.48
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:40:15.14
Ken
It wouldn't necessarily be, you know, the, the new, the new guy behind the camera is in charge of all the shots. And, and, and I don't have any say. I would certainly still be, you know, uh, director.

00:40:23.94
Seth Macey
Right. A director.

00:40:27.61
Ken
for sure you know so because I do enjoy that aspect of it you know pulling the truck over on a trail and spending five minutes to kind of look around and be like let's try this one all let's try this shot let's try this you know and so like so I do enjoy that aspect of it but as far as the two aspects that I love the most are probably just the simple exploration piece when I'm out there and then the editing I really enjoy editing

00:40:56.16
Seth Macey
Yeah. so This is an exact estimate to getting to a right getting to a place where you're successful enough that you can delegate to then put your primary amount of time into the thing that you've wanted to do from the start.

00:40:56.97
Ken
because that's when I can put everything together.

00:41:13.97
Ken
Right.

00:41:14.36
Seth Macey
This is why businesses, startups hire accountants, they hire lawyers, they hire marketing teams that they can get down to. You know, Aaron and I are in this right now. There was a lot of things about this show we don't want to do, but we're like, how can we delegate this? How can we get to a place where we can, and ultimately that serves the viewer better. That serves your audience better. Cause now you're able to focus more on the.

00:41:37.05
Seth Macey
And I'm not downplaying those roles. there's It's just acknowledging that there's people who love those roles and who are better than them at you, perhaps, and can make your whole project that much better, right?

00:41:51.45
Ken
Yeah.

00:41:51.95
Seth Macey
And i'm I'm thinking about this conversation. It's interesting. I'm trying to imagine myself if, to be able to be a photographer or videographer, I had to overland.

00:42:01.59
Aaron
Right.

00:42:02.65
Seth Macey
It's, it's sort of similar in that sense where it's like, I have to do the overlanding. If I'm, it doesn't make sense, obviously in the physical world, but that's how I'm treating it in my head. Like if I, if I wanted to do the thing and I had to do the other thing, we're reversing the photography and videography, which is kind of interesting.

00:42:17.63
Ken
Actually, Aaron did.

00:42:20.39
Seth Macey
Did he, well he has a RAV or not a RAV4.

00:42:23.10
Aaron
I have a forerunner and i've I've stayed overnight a couple of times, but I did my camping.

00:42:23.31
Seth Macey
He has a 4Runner.

00:42:25.29
Ken
ah But I'm talking about, yeah, the van out west.

00:42:29.23
Aaron
van. Yeah, the van for the week out west in California and I had to survive.

00:42:32.92
Ken
Doing the photography, videography, but you you were doing it through that van.

00:42:38.16
Seth Macey
Oh, the Materavan in Utah?

00:42:40.17
Aaron
Yeah, had to pee in a giant gallon bucket for a whole week.

00:42:42.68
Seth Macey
What?

00:42:43.54
Ken
Wait, did you seriously?

00:42:44.83
Aaron
Yeah, I had to.

00:42:46.11
Ken
Good for you.

00:42:46.94
Aaron
Thank you.

00:42:47.26
Seth Macey
Why didn't you just pee in the wilderness?

00:42:47.48
Ken
I'm proud.

00:42:50.03
Aaron
well Or that but sometimes that wasn't ah that wasn't available or was cold or was like, you know,

00:42:52.04
Seth Macey
What do you mean it wasn't available? It's outside.

00:42:58.15
Aaron
No, I know, but it's April in the desert. It was freezing. So that was, uh, it was easier.

00:43:02.32
Seth Macey
Aww.

00:43:03.75
Aaron
It came with a toilet, but my goal for the week was to not use the toilet one time. Cause then you have to, you have to clean it before you turn it back in. And it was like those, no, no, that, that was, we're not going to get into that, but that was, that was timed.

00:43:12.20
Seth Macey
Came back 20 pounds heavier. Is that what you're? Poop joke.

00:43:19.42
Aaron
Um, but yeah, yeah, it was, uh, we, we still talk about that.

00:43:22.32
Seth Macey
Right.

00:43:23.55
Ken
He was out there. I ended up messaging him at one point. I said, I hate to bring it to you, Aaron, but you're overlanding right now.

00:43:30.27
Aaron
Yeah, I was.

00:43:32.09
Ken
Yeah.

00:43:32.09
Seth Macey
Phew.

00:43:32.64
Aaron
I was.

00:43:33.14
Ken
Got to join the club.

00:43:33.73
Aaron
No, but you know, I'll tell you what, photographers often talk about, I mean, we, I feel like Ken right now is kind of learning a lot from the photographer mind, us and mindset, ah and and vice versa.

00:43:34.56
Ken
Wow.

00:43:48.12
Aaron
But photographers can learn a lot from

00:43:50.82
Seth Macey
Mm hmm.

00:43:51.08
Aaron
like his videos in his, uh, spots. We all talk about like oh that place is too overrun or that place is too, uh, crowded. It's so busy.

00:44:02.74
Aaron
Overlanding is about getting away from that a bit and finding these areas in the world that you can kind of go and feel like, wow, i a I'm on my own here. i'm goingnna I'm going to slow down and enjoy this beautiful spot. I'm going to video the sunset. I'm going to take pictures with my friends and loved ones or whoever's with me, ah maybe on on your own and just kind of feeling like super small in the world, I think.

00:44:29.64
Aaron
There's a lot to learn from, you know, his, uh, his main video, his Vermont video, which is very close to where I am, um, where we live, uh, relatively close, just sort of like, this is a, this is a ah road, a private road that no one would really know about and look at it. And you kind of get like this preview of like, wow, I would love to take a drive down that road and.

00:44:52.25
Aaron
and do some drone work on my own. That's a great spot to be. That kind of stuff versus the, where should I go in Maine? Google search and it's where everyone else is going. So there's a lot to learn, I think both ways. And they're definitely symbiotic in relationship in terms of, oh, if you overland, you're going to have some good photography opportunities. And if you photograph and video and you overland, you can Definitely capture some stories.

00:45:23.44
Seth Macey
Yeah. The other thing I'm thinking, I've been thinking throughout this conversation is if you're someone who's hit a wall or photography feels stale or you feel uninspired,

00:45:25.72
Ken
Mm hmm.

00:45:36.72
Seth Macey
What a, uh, what a motivational conversation to maybe take a left turn and start taking photo and video of the other aspects of your life, life that you love garden.

00:45:48.68
Ken
Yeah.

00:45:49.05
Seth Macey
I'll use my example. Like I love running. I like gardening in the summer. Uh, you know, if you're there, if there's other things you're super passionate about and you feel like you've hit a creative block, maybe it's cool to just go.

00:46:03.66
Seth Macey
caption visual content of those things, because your heart's probably more in it at the time.

00:46:09.77
Aaron
<unk>s That's a good point. Ken, I got to ask, are your friends into this too? Video photography, because if I'm them and I'm not, and I just want to overland and you're stopping every 20 feet to jump out of the car and ah get this shot, I might, I might leave you in the woods.

00:46:28.02
Ken
Yeah. there's a Most of my friends are are not. um my My one buddy I mentioned earlier who was the first to have like a rooftop tent. I keep saying rooftop tent. You don't need a rooftop tent to overland. If you've got a ground tent, you're good. It just tends to be like one of those products that's immediately associated with the trend.

00:46:49.72
Ken
But he was the first to get the tent on top of his vehicle and his name's Rob He's been in he's been in quite a few of my videos and he's into it. He's not Particularly like a photographer videographer kind of thing He doesn't post content related to it on YouTube or anything like that But he's he's understanding enough to know like hey, this is what you love man.

00:47:13.32
Aaron
That's good.

00:47:15.42
Ken
If we have to stop seven times Stop seven times, you know

00:47:19.38
Aaron
Cool.

00:47:19.71
Ken
And he has his own fun at the same time. If I'm off in the distance getting a shot or something like that, he'll help prank my vehicle and like throw something that doesn't belong in the driver's seat or something like that. You know what I mean? like He has his fun with it. I've got another good friend, Jeremy, who I met through Overlanding, or I met through the social media thing here in Connecticut. And he and I work really well together because we do share that mindset.

00:47:49.23
Ken
We've got radios in our trucks and we'll pass a waterfall, for example. And it's only a matter of time before one of us hops on the radio. It's like, we need to turn around.

00:47:59.97
Ken
We need to get that shot.

00:48:00.98
Aaron
That's cool.

00:48:01.29
Ken
you know So if you you know it helps having others who have that like like at least like-minded interest or people who understand. So you don't have to do it alone.

00:48:13.59
Aaron
yeah So people out there that want to do, let's let's say start off with overland light, they just want to kind of ease into it. What are, what are three pieces of equipment or things that you, you would say like, go get these things.

00:48:29.73
Aaron
Maybe it's five things. I don't know.

00:48:31.41
Ken
We can limit to three. I could totally do three. We could do one.

00:48:33.38
Aaron
Okay. Let's do three, three where it's like, get these things and you're going to be, you're going to be okay for a solid one night over.

00:48:34.41
Ken
I could do one.

00:48:41.94
Aaron
Um, situation, maybe two night.

00:48:44.13
Ken
Yeah, I'd say, do you have a vehicle?

00:48:47.99
Aaron
Yeah.

00:48:48.21
Ken
If you have a vehicle, that's a check one box.

00:48:50.16
Aaron
That doesn't count. We have a vehicle. So three other things.

00:48:51.93
Ken
All right, so you so I mean, so then, okay, there's the list.

00:48:56.65
Ken
Because a lot of people think it has to be. Like you said, it's got to be a list of things. I need this, this, this, and this before I can explore.

00:49:03.20
Aaron
Yeah. So that's it.

00:49:04.50
Ken
Like, do you, though? Like, you think about it. What do you really need to just go enjoy, I don't know, the woods?

00:49:11.89
Seth Macey
water and food and clothes.

00:49:13.59
Ken
Yeah, I mean, so besides like the essentials, if you if you want to get like the bare bones of the experience, you take your vehicle and get yourself a cheap little you know maybe cheap a little like Walmart ground tent if you if you don't already have one if you can't borrow one from a friend and you know maybe a little Coleman stove or something like that just to get the experience of cooking out on your tailgate you know and then after that it's really about just exploring it does not I mean it's that's the thing is like when we're talking about equipment for for you know telling a story or videography or whatever like

00:49:48.31
Ken
You truly don't need a whole lot. That's the same thing with overlanding. You don't need a whole lot, but social media would tell you otherwise. You got to get a tent on top of your truck.

00:49:58.45
Aaron
Mm hmm.

00:49:59.29
Ken
Your truck has to have at least 40 inch tires. You've got to be able to go cross country for six weeks. And if you don't hit every national park in a year, then you didn't, you didn't make it.

00:50:10.14
Aaron
You failed.

00:50:10.31
Ken
So you know what I mean? It's like,

00:50:12.70
Aaron
You under landed.

00:50:14.76
Ken
underland yeah right it's like but you overt you overpa

00:50:17.09
Seth Macey
I hate that you said that.

00:50:20.13
Aaron
You under oceaned.

00:50:20.25
Seth Macey
I hate it more than I laughed. Wow.

00:50:23.15
Aaron
Yes.

00:50:23.32
Seth Macey
Slap, slap, slap, slap.

00:50:24.78
Aaron
Yes. Seth's tired. He's laughing at my jokes.

00:50:28.71
Seth Macey
Wide awake, Buster.

00:50:31.45
Ken
But I mean like that's that's the idea that a lot of people fall into and it's it's unfortunate because it does create that mindset of you know, I'll take the trip when as opposed to

00:50:32.59
Aaron
Yeah.

00:50:41.17
Aaron
Right.

00:50:41.69
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:50:43.78
Ken
Yeah, let's just go for it. Let's see what happens.

00:50:45.70
Seth Macey
Right. I think the biggest thing social media does in all genres, and we're not going to go too down far down the social media rabbit hole. Cause we do it all the time. Is it just, it increases that gap between and increases the perceived accessibility gap.

00:51:00.29
Ken
Yeah. Yeah.

00:51:01.88
Aaron
Mm hmm.

00:51:01.97
Seth Macey
The top creators in all fields. Oh, that's the bar or that's what that's, you know, peak, what the peak content creator is doing. Why bother?

00:51:13.83
Ken
Exactly, I'm not gonna get there.

00:51:16.39
Aaron
Yeah.

00:51:17.55
Ken
Actually, i have this so I have a question for you guys, as far as this is concerned.

00:51:19.43
Seth Macey
Oh.

00:51:19.72
Aaron
Oh, oh, let's get ready.

00:51:22.29
Ken
So, what do you, like, at what level do you consider yourself, I am now a photographer?

00:51:31.79
Seth Macey
Dear first picture you ever took.

00:51:32.46
Ken
but we can see Or we could say, I'm now a videographer.

00:51:36.04
Seth Macey
Right. Uh, for me, I think I've used this example before. I bought a one 50 to 600 millimeter lens. ah Later that day or week I went outside and I took a picture of a chipmunk and I changed my Instagram bio to wildlife photographer. People can laugh at that. That's my mentality.

00:52:06.27
Aaron
yeah i like that i like that and like that

00:52:10.55
Seth Macey
Can I add to mine too though? Cause I had two different sections to be from when I consider myself like a professional, even feel like weird saying, I feel like a professional is someone who can confidently deliver a high quality product that is tailored and gets paid to do so.

00:52:11.78
Aaron
yeah go

00:52:31.41
Aaron
Yeah, I like that.

00:52:31.68
Seth Macey
Whether that's photographs for a magazine assignment, whether it's for a local business,

00:52:36.07
Aaron
I like that. I like that. Yeah.

00:52:40.00
Seth Macey
what What is a professional accountant? What is a professional drywaller?

00:52:45.45
Ken
As soon as you get paid it kind of maybe you're able to

00:52:46.92
Seth Macey
It's the same thing.

00:52:47.09
Aaron
Yeah.

00:52:49.98
Seth Macey
You did a good job. You have some clients, you got paid. Hey, you're a pro.

00:52:54.46
Ken
Yeah, right.

00:52:57.00
Seth Macey
You know, probably, but I think the, I think we talk about,

00:52:58.62
Ken
Were you apprehensive about that initial like, I'm changing my bio to photographer?

00:53:10.88
Seth Macey
you know, limiting beliefs and a whole bunch of other concepts so much on this show that old me may have been at the same time.

00:53:18.24
Ken
Mm hmm.

00:53:20.41
Seth Macey
It's like, I feel like what, what, like what would be the barrier to not putting that in your Instagram bio? Like if you think about this out loud, I'm not going to put it because people will think I'm a fraud or people will not agree with me.

00:53:34.35
Ken
But that's that the point.

00:53:35.18
Seth Macey
and That's going to be in silence. right they mean That may be the case, but you're not going to hear about it. and Second, that stems from stop caring about what other people think. I know that's a big, broad category and piece of advice, but people are so focused and fixated on their own stuff. Even if they felt that way for two seconds, it has no bearing or effect on your life people.

00:53:57.89
Seth Macey
Really, I hate to break it to you. People aren't paying attention to you too much, as much as you think. everyone's Everyone's trying to do their own thing and make it and improve and be successful and get intention and do all these things. like You're not a priority to them. I think that helps me with that.

00:54:13.17
Seth Macey
and so

00:54:13.45
Ken
Just as much as you're in your own mind, everybody else is the exact same thing.

00:54:16.08
Seth Macey
Yes.

00:54:17.99
Aaron
Right.

00:54:18.34
Seth Macey
Everybody's in the exact same thing. Everybody's focused on, and that's not like, that's just human nature. It's, it's natural to try and improve your circumstances, whether they're horrible or great. And people are naturally focused on how do I do that? And in their own heads.

00:54:35.83
Ken
Yeah. So the the parallel, the reason why I ask. is you know you've got someone maybe listening to the podcast who's apprehensive about becoming the photographer quote on quote or videographer or you know relating to overlanding you know apprehensive about exploring and documenting it and putting it out on there on the on the internet because of the label won't be approved by the masses you know when in reality all you're doing is you're just not doing the thing you want to do

00:54:48.58
Seth Macey
Right.

00:55:05.22
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:55:09.53
Seth Macey
Correct. And what are you going to do?

00:55:10.89
Ken
it doesn't

00:55:11.35
Seth Macey
Are you going to wait for somebody to come by and say, Hey, you, You, you're a wildlife photographer. Go throw it at your bio, buddy.

00:55:17.53
Ken
Right. Right. Yeah.

00:55:19.94
Seth Macey
like What are you waiting for?

00:55:21.93
Aaron
How are you not putting wildlife photographer in your bio?

00:55:22.11
Ken
Right.

00:55:24.75
Ken
Exactly.

00:55:24.80
Seth Macey
Right. I just screamed at you to do it.

00:55:25.64
Aaron
Yeah.

00:55:26.50
Seth Macey
Like, so in your example, Ken, I don't like you. You're a director. You're an overlander. You're a photographer. You're a content creator. You're doing the thing.

00:55:35.63
Ken
Yeah.

00:55:36.20
Seth Macey
No one's going to come to you and be like, you know what? It's time, man.

00:55:39.98
Ken
Yeah.

00:55:40.72
Seth Macey
It's time you call yourself that.

00:55:40.86
Aaron
Yeah.

00:55:41.01
Ken
It kind of comes down to you. I mean, you get to, you get to label your, when you you're in a creative space that you guys are in or or that I'm in, you get to come up with your own label for that.

00:55:46.81
Aaron
Yeah.

00:55:51.78
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:55:52.84
Ken
You know, it's sure.

00:55:52.94
Seth Macey
And you know, if you're lying to yourself.

00:55:56.17
Aaron
Right. And I think, you know, if you're going to pursue it further, I think that's a key point. You say, if I write a song to tonight, I'm a songwriter. If I start promoting that I'm a songwriter and I have one song and that's the end of it, like,

00:56:10.58
Aaron
It's just, I don't know. It's fine, but it's not going to go anywhere and it's misleading a little bit.

00:56:16.90
Ken
Yeah,

00:56:16.99
Aaron
ah Right.

00:56:17.97
Seth Macey
So make more.

00:56:19.57
Aaron
If you want to, if I know, if I know that's my first song of 20 that I'm going to do, like that's my goal.

00:56:20.05
Ken
exactly.

00:56:25.65
Aaron
And yeah, I'm a songwriter.

00:56:27.64
Seth Macey
which speaks to the fact that if I see somebody put something like that in their bio, it means, okay, they're serious about this. They're passionate about this.

00:56:33.73
Aaron
yeah Yeah, for sure.

00:56:34.44
Seth Macey
There's enthusiasm there.

00:56:38.41
Aaron
And I think, yeah.

00:56:38.61
Ken
So having that mindset helps as the extra person, as the, the watcher, the viewer, the bystander, you know?

00:56:45.76
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:56:47.39
Ken
And I think, I think we have a little bit of a ah judgmental mentality, especially when it comes to those willing to pursue creative spaces.

00:56:47.38
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:56:56.17
Ken
I think others love to make them feel like they shouldn't be. And that's that, that creates a little, you know, we can be more understanding, you know?

00:57:01.35
Seth Macey
Right.

00:57:04.63
Aaron
Yeah.

00:57:04.94
Ken
You could be someone listening right now saying, I disagree with everything that these guys are saying, you know?

00:57:08.86
Aaron
I mean, to get to get deeper with that, Ken, I think there's a lot of people that wish they did chase the dream or are waiting for the perfect opportunity and beating themselves up about it subconsciously. And we like to keep everyone within the community. And I think the creative endeavors are, ah that's a break free from the societal norms of like, have your nine to five, uh, you know, make sure everything's in order. Uh,

00:57:40.24
Aaron
follow societal laws. Like, that's like, uh, I'm going to make my own money over here. I don't have to report to anyone.

00:57:45.42
Ken
Right.

00:57:46.63
Aaron
So I think, yeah, I think there's a little of like, it's a mix of jealousy, envy, and misery loves company.

00:57:47.11
Seth Macey
Who do you think you are?

00:57:57.06
Ken
Sure.

00:57:57.50
Seth Macey
Y'all heard of crab bucket syndrome?

00:57:57.75
Aaron
Like, to yes, that that's the, that's the thing.

00:58:01.78
Ken
What is

00:58:02.33
Aaron
Tell us.

00:58:03.37
Seth Macey
Crab bucket.

00:58:04.53
Aaron
Grab.

00:58:05.00
Seth Macey
Crab bucket syndrome. If you put a bunch of crabs into a bucket. Okay. Obviously they'll try, the ones in the top will try and escape out the top over the lid, right?

00:58:15.39
Seth Macey
To get away from the rest of the crowded crabs. The crabs below it will pull them back in saying essentially, I'm stuck here.

00:58:26.62
Seth Macey
So should you be, so should you crab bucket.

00:58:27.99
Ken
Hmm. Interesting. I love that.

00:58:31.77
Aaron
Yeah.

00:58:33.61
Ken
That's amazing. Yeah. So if you, so, yeah, I mean having the.

00:58:38.60
Seth Macey
Also known as crab mentality is a mindset where people try to stop others from succeeding even if it doesn't directly affect them. It is often described using the metaphor of crabs in a bucket where crabs will pull each other down instead of helping each other out.

00:58:55.69
Ken
Fascinating.

00:58:57.16
Seth Macey
and Google it.

00:58:58.54
Aaron
Freaking crabs.

00:58:59.70
Ken
So if you are someone in the space, why not help others who are apprehensive about joining, you know?

00:59:07.16
Seth Macey
That's just it. Imagine if all the crabs help each other out of the bucket.

00:59:09.79
Ken
For sure, you know? If you are a photographer and you've you've you've got that label, you you've bestowed that upon yourself and you've been doing it for quite some time and you notice someone flip there their Instagram bio to photographer when maybe it's just a picture of a squirrel. Was it a squirrel or a chipmunk?

00:59:28.70
Aaron
Who's a chipmunk, Ken?

00:59:29.67
Seth Macey
cheunk

00:59:30.25
Ken
okay chipmunk You know what I mean?

00:59:31.94
Seth Macey
ye

00:59:32.50
Ken
Why not boost them? Send them a message, you know? Looking forward to seeing your journey. Looking forward to seeing you grow.

00:59:37.07
Seth Macey
Oh, isn't me do that?

00:59:38.54
Ken
No, not you literally.

00:59:39.23
Aaron
Oh, people sing it.

00:59:39.62
Ken
Just the idea, you know?

00:59:40.31
Seth Macey
Oh, I see. I thought you were telling me to go recruit people like my hyperbole.

00:59:42.41
Ken
It's the idea.

00:59:42.57
Aaron
Yeah.

00:59:44.76
Ken
yeah

00:59:46.80
Aaron
No, Ken, I'm with you.

00:59:46.97
Seth Macey
You're going to have people send them voice DMs.

00:59:49.99
Aaron
I've said it before, our buddy Brett ah was a big person in that, in in my journey, just someone reaching out that had a big following when I was a nobody and just really positive about, I love seeing you trying new things.

01:00:02.90
Aaron
I love seeing this work. You're going to have a million followers by two years from now. I guarantee it blowing smoke. But at the same time, it was like, dude, someone that I don't really know likes my stuff and is encouraging.

01:00:10.73
Ken
Yeah.

01:00:16.31
Ken
Yeah.

01:00:17.10
Aaron
You know, yeah.

01:00:17.14
Ken
You do it. You do it to me. ah You seek me out in the hallway and you're like, Hey, saw that Vermont video. You're killing it. That looks really good. It's, it's awesome.

01:00:24.98
Aaron
Dead.

01:00:25.64
Ken
And you, and you said that despite knowing like, just because of my personality, that I'm probably going to be more successful than you at some point. So I appreciate that.

01:00:34.57
Seth Macey
Good delivery.

01:00:35.76
Aaron
There it is.

01:00:36.41
Seth Macey
We're waiting for it.

01:00:37.31
Aaron
There it is.

01:00:37.96
Seth Macey
I do have a serious question though.

01:00:38.18
Aaron
Took an hour.

01:00:39.12
Seth Macey
So when Aaron says a compliment like that to you, uh, and I know you're, you got good one, one liners as you've just demonstrated, but seriously, how do you, how do you, how was that processed once it's received?

01:00:53.67
Seth Macey
Is it. Is he lying? Oh, he like, um maybe I'm onto to something. What's, what's going through your head?

01:01:01.26
Ken
um Well, I mean You get it from a random, if you get you know like let's say you get an Instagram message, that's that's you can question that. When I get it from Aaron, I know Aaron.

01:01:11.67
Seth Macey
Right.

01:01:12.24
Ken
you know I can take him at his word, I understand. He's a genuine guy. and So when he when he does something like that, I take it wholeheartedly. i mean I go to him for advice all the time.

01:01:25.41
Ken
you know So if he comes back and he says, it's like it's like it's like a good friend giving you a compliment.

01:01:26.06
Seth Macey
Right.

01:01:32.18
Ken
You don't question that. You know, if you get a, if you get a message and I think also, you know, you guys can weigh in on this, but I, I'd say that if you get a random message on social media from someone who also gives you a compliment that can carry just as much weight because they did go out of there. Now, anyone goes out of there, anyone can go out of their way to tell you you suck. You know what I mean? It happens all day, every day. But if someone goes out of their way to give you a compliment,

01:02:01.57
Ken
I feel like that that is almost as good as getting a compliment from a good friend because they took the effort to do that.

01:02:08.00
Seth Macey
Yeah, I hear you.

01:02:08.76
Aaron
Yeah.

01:02:11.13
Seth Macey
This is kind of related, sort of unrelated. I'm laughing because it made me think of a story about a ah roommate of mine back in college. He had this thing where products he really loved.

01:02:23.15
Seth Macey
You know how on the box, so you get a box of pierogies. It's like one eight call 1-800-whatever for your customer feedback. And you're like, who calls those?

01:02:33.21
Ken
here Yeah.

01:02:33.32
Seth Macey
And anybody who's calling those is out of their mind complaining, right?

01:02:37.57
Aaron
yeah

01:02:38.17
Seth Macey
So my buddy, when there was a product or it was usually food or drink that he really liked, he would phone the number. And I can't tell you the amount of times people would be like, Hey, we don't usually get these calls because he was saying how much he loved it.

01:02:54.32
Ken
Awesome.

01:02:55.60
Aaron
That's great.

01:02:56.12
Seth Macey
I remember a company, I think it was like, uh, I think it was brisk iced tea. Do you guys have that?

01:03:01.64
Aaron
Yeah.

01:03:02.27
Ken
Yep.

01:03:02.27
Seth Macey
I think it was that and they're like, what's your high dress? We want to send you a case.

01:03:07.55
Aaron
yeah

01:03:07.99
Seth Macey
yeah We just don't get these. People are usually complaining that, I don't know, it was too sugary or I don't know. It just it made me think of that story.

01:03:13.87
Ken
Yeah.

01:03:15.36
Seth Macey
I don't know why, but.

01:03:15.43
Ken
That can work. That can work in the, in like the brand deal development stuff, you know, um, I'll, I'll usually refer to it as like playing the long game.

01:03:20.16
Seth Macey
Oh, yeah.

01:03:26.26
Ken
You know, if I get a new new set of tires and they're, they're, you know, really performing well on. trails of you know vermont or whatever reach out to the tire company and be like hey or or you know i'll i'll send them the post that i made on instagram you know you make it you tag them but some companies are so big they're like oh it's the fifth 500th post today that we we were tagged in so i'll send it and i'll be like hey just wanted to let you know these are these are awesome these are awesome no problems you know and then

01:03:56.19
Seth Macey
yeah Yeah. Where can I leave a review?

01:04:02.22
Ken
Yeah, exactly. you know Do you do Google? Do you do this? Do you do you know whatever? And then three months later, do the same thing. And then three months later, maybe you do the same thing.

01:04:09.56
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:04:11.37
Ken
And then maybe nothing, I mean, nothing might ever come with it. They might just be like, oh, hey, it's varsity again, saying he loves our stuff.

01:04:15.82
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:04:19.07
Ken
That's awesome. Or one day you get an email.

01:04:20.68
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

01:04:23.26
Ken
Hey, I heard you love the tires.

01:04:24.17
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:04:25.13
Ken
Love to send you some.

01:04:25.91
Seth Macey
I think that's important.

01:04:26.47
Aaron
But it's yeah it's genuine and you're giving yourself an opportunity to talk to someone, a real human, someone that starts a conversation. Anything can come from taking the moment to reach out and and tell someone you care about them.

01:04:42.85
Ken
Yeah, it's got to be genuine though.

01:04:44.58
Aaron
Yeah, it's got to be genuine.

01:04:44.74
Ken
like You got to mean it.

01:04:46.16
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

01:04:46.21
Ken
you know and i mean You have to actually be like, if i if nothing you know if nothing comes from this other than the conversation, I'm glad we had the conversation.

01:04:53.65
Aaron
Yeah.

01:04:53.95
Seth Macey
That's just it.

01:04:53.99
Ken
you know

01:04:54.43
Seth Macey
I was going to say the badly. How do you people wondering? well How do I be genuine if I also want something? That's fine, but expect nothing of it.

01:05:03.15
Aaron
Yeah.

01:05:03.26
Ken
Yeah.

01:05:03.29
Seth Macey
Expect nothing in return going in. And I think you won't be disappointed.

01:05:07.35
Aaron
You never say I love you to hear I love you too.

01:05:10.45
Seth Macey
Oh, look at that.

01:05:12.18
Aaron
yes's You say it because you yeah love the person.

01:05:13.91
Ken
Is that why you never say I love you to me, Aaron?

01:05:16.22
Aaron
Yes. That is exactly why.

01:05:18.01
Ken
Okay.

01:05:20.47
Aaron
I know you're not going to say it back.

01:05:20.66
Ken
a lot of people You know, the Overland, the Overland space has that, that, uh, mentality with a lot of people, you know, it is a, it is a bandwagon. It did explode after COVID people getting out and doing what, you know, things in the wild, exploring nature, buying tents, doing the thing, you know, and brands noticed that. So brands started pushing out their products. People noticed that. And there's a lot of people who, you know, they just start taking pictures of their truck and they start you know, taking pictures of mountains and things and they'll immediately start reaching out to companies and just be like, give me something, you know? And when that happens, it makes it difficult too for people who are genuine to not look like they're just in it for, you know, the new set of tires.

01:06:11.23
Seth Macey
Mm. So then here's my question because I think there's almost a paradox in it. It makes it more difficult, but I would argue it makes it it pokes a pocket for you to stand out.

01:06:25.28
Seth Macey
So.

01:06:25.41
Ken
How do you mean?

01:06:26.89
Seth Macey
Well, like if everyone is being.

01:06:31.53
Seth Macey
If everyone's kind of being transparent about they just want stuff.

01:06:35.97
Ken
here

01:06:36.43
Seth Macey
There's a template or formula that I feel like marketing directors, you know, like if you get a hundred messages like that, there's a, there's, okay, i I can tell what this person is asking.

01:06:43.79
Aaron
Yeah.

01:06:45.25
Seth Macey
So I'm saying if there's a ton of people doing it, it leaves a small space for you to be wildly different.

01:06:51.99
Ken
Okay.

01:06:52.56
Aaron
Yeah.

01:06:53.00
Ken
You can see that.

01:06:53.26
Aaron
I think in in our world, Ken, it's people write out and go, Hey, would you want to, do you want to photos or video? And like, that's, that's the pitch.

01:07:04.57
Ken
Mhm.

01:07:04.74
Aaron
I can do photos or video, or do you want to work together? And they get a million of those. It's the person that writes out and it's like, Hey, I bought your product. Uh, this is this concept I had, uh, with my dog and dog sledding and but it's winter here.

01:07:15.49
Ken
Yeah.

01:07:19.27
Aaron
And I think this works perfectly. Here's an example of my work. Here's the rest of my work that they're like.

01:07:25.93
Seth Macey
Are you interested in hearing more say yes.

01:07:27.74
Aaron
Yeah, you you have a chance. You have a chance there to to get some attention versus. They're not going to go through 400. Uh, do you want to work together? I take pictures or I take photo or I take video and, and do the research themselves.

01:07:40.92
Ken
Yeah.

01:07:42.88
Aaron
They need it to be, I feel like, I feel like handed to them on a platter of like, here's all the things you need to know in ah in a quick synopsis.

01:07:44.82
Seth Macey
Sir.

01:07:53.04
Ken
Yeah, easier. As easy as humanly possible.

01:07:55.78
Aaron
Yeah, for them.

01:07:56.36
Ken
But you also, it's it's it's kind of weird too, you also have to be able to convey how how genuine you are as easy as possible.

01:08:03.21
Aaron
Right.

01:08:04.40
Ken
you know I think some of that, especially for overlanding, is you just have to do it.

01:08:05.12
Aaron
Right.

01:08:13.14
Ken
Because that aspect of, I don't have the gear yet, I'm not going to take the trip until like that can also apply to people who want to be content creators in this space.

01:08:13.35
Aaron
Yeah.

01:08:22.31
Ken
You know, I'm not going to start the YouTube channel until I can list all the brains I'm working with at the bottom of the screen.

01:08:29.19
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:08:29.34
Ken
You know, you've got it.

01:08:29.88
Aaron
Right.

01:08:30.24
Ken
No, you just, you've got to, you got to prove that you're doing it. You know, it's like, like magazines, magazines won't use photos.

01:08:37.18
Seth Macey
Yeah, I can also

01:08:40.28
Ken
Magazines won't use your, won't use your, uh, like publications won't use your, your, uh, your article. If, you know, you've never.

01:08:52.23
Ken
made a trip across country, for example, you know, but you're, you're trying to pitch the trip across the country and you're like, well, have you done it before? No. All right. Well, yeah.

01:09:01.93
Seth Macey
Yeah. You don't have proof of concept. That's what you're saying.

01:09:03.95
Aaron
Right.

01:09:04.24
Ken
Yeah, exactly.

01:09:04.97
Seth Macey
Have a proof of concept on your own time is what we suggest always. And that can be done with low stakes where you're not, I don't have somebody paying you thousands of dollars.

01:09:16.13
Seth Macey
don Make mistakes on your own time.

01:09:17.99
Ken
Right. Right.

01:09:18.99
Seth Macey
You know, make mistakes on your own time.

01:09:19.07
Ken
Right.

01:09:20.51
Aaron
yeah

01:09:23.60
Seth Macey
What would you say was, was the hardest part about getting started as a, as a content creator in your niche.

01:09:35.55
Ken
um The bandwagon, essentially, the popularity of it at the time. I started in 2021. It was a fault late late summer of 2021. I posted my first YouTube video. um And at that time, it was you know the post-COVID kind of effect was fully in swing with people going outside and putting all of their outdoor adventures on social media.

01:10:01.85
Ken
And, uh, that was probably the hardest part was doing something to stand out and being worried that I couldn't do anything to stand out. I'd just be, you know, overland influencer number 72 on YouTube. You know what I mean? Um, I did find it easy to, to like, once I had just hit the play button, I did find it easy to do it. I think it was just a matter of getting over that hurdle of like,

01:10:31.43
Ken
Hey, if it flops, it flops. You have to enjoy doing it for the sake of doing it.

01:10:33.28
Seth Macey
And.

01:10:35.20
Ken
I enjoy being creative.

01:10:35.42
Aaron
Yeah.

01:10:37.19
Ken
So it's a creative outlet at the end of the day. You know, when I got into it, it was really like, Hey, maybe people will enjoy this, but I'm going to, I'm going to enjoy doing it as well. So I didn't have any aspirations of, you know, four, four years ago, I didn't have any aspirations of like, I'm going to quit my job.

01:10:56.04
Ken
This is going to be it. I'm going to be an overlay content creator. Here we go. It was really more like, I like making videos, editing things.

01:11:06.65
Ken
I know that when I was a kid, I used to play around with the software similar to it. So maybe I'll take that and I'll combine it with this new thing that I fell in love with. And if it never turns into anything, it never turns into anything.

01:11:19.33
Ken
At the end of the day, what I'm really doing is documented documenting my travels, which is awesome because I'll admit I have a terrible memory.

01:11:24.07
Aaron
Yeah.

01:11:26.46
Ken
So sometimes I'll go back and watch a video and go, Oh yeah, that did happen.

01:11:28.20
Aaron
Yeah.

01:11:30.57
Ken
You know, so it's kind of like a virtual portfolio, really.

01:11:34.24
Aaron
Yeah, it is.

01:11:34.37
Seth Macey
Yeah. Have you guys heard of Google trends? You ever use this?

01:11:40.03
Aaron
I don't know.

01:11:40.03
Ken
Is that like a function to see what's, what's popping right now?

01:11:42.95
Seth Macey
Yeah. Like you can put like, I just, while you're speaking, I put an overlanding as a topic and I can track the interest over time on a scale from one to a hundred.

01:11:51.21
Aaron
Oh, interesting.

01:11:51.43
Ken
Yeah.

01:11:52.66
Seth Macey
zero being no interest on, on the, in the digital world and the internet, people searching it and a hundred being max.

01:11:58.21
Ken
Yeah.

01:11:59.25
Seth Macey
So you want guys want to hear some interesting data?

01:12:00.90
Aaron
Yeah.

01:12:03.05
Seth Macey
So, okay.

01:12:03.37
Ken
I think I could take a guess.

01:12:06.29
Seth Macey
Zero is zero is no interest and a hundred is max interest. And I'm looking at from 2015 until today, which is January 15th.

01:12:17.57
Ken
So I'd say probably, probably early on around that 2015, it helped around zero.

01:12:20.79
Seth Macey
Uh-huh. four.

01:12:23.89
Ken
Okay.

01:12:24.22
Seth Macey
Good guess.

01:12:25.12
Ken
Right. And it grew.

01:12:29.27
Ken
steadily, not anything crazy, but around COVID, it spiked real hard.

01:12:33.62
Seth Macey
Spiked huge from March, 2020.

01:12:36.99
Ken
And then when it dropped, and then it dropped, but I think it only dropped to, to where it was originally tracking.

01:12:37.68
Seth Macey
Hold on. Hold on. Spiked from March, 2020 to July 20th. Yeah.

01:12:49.39
Seth Macey
Being what?

01:12:51.10
Ken
Uh, got to pick a number, right? Maybe he'll say 65.

01:12:59.75
Seth Macey
60 it dropped to.

01:13:01.07
Aaron
Wow.

01:13:01.14
Ken
OK.

01:13:02.07
Aaron
Ken's good.

01:13:02.93
Seth Macey
So it started.

01:13:03.68
Ken
I'm not cheating.

01:13:05.48
Seth Macey
He has it in front of him.

01:13:05.72
Ken
I promise.

01:13:06.95
Seth Macey
It was at four and.

01:13:07.09
Ken
My phone's recording. My camera on the computer is being used.

01:13:10.93
Aaron
Yeah.

01:13:11.10
Ken
Hands are free right now.

01:13:12.35
Aaron
He's a giant poster of this bar graph.

01:13:14.61
Seth Macey
He does. So interest over time, it was a ah four out of a hundred in 2015 spiked to a 90 in July of 2020.

01:13:27.34
Ken
Yep.

01:13:27.73
Seth Macey
That uptick started in March of 2020, which was perfect pandemic time. Then it cratered down to 60 in November of 2020, had a resurgence up to, or you're going to guess the following year in July, 2021, it had an uptick to what?

01:13:42.31
Ken
We go 80.

01:13:46.90
Seth Macey
100.

01:13:47.99
Ken
Ooh.

01:13:48.20
Aaron
Wow.

01:13:49.11
Ken
In 20, what year was that again?

01:13:50.45
Seth Macey
July 2021.

01:13:52.05
Ken
20, 21.

01:13:52.62
Aaron
To me, but a lot of people saw about it and then

01:13:53.33
Ken
That was literally, i was I was in the middle of, where was I?

01:13:57.03
Seth Macey
It was probably, this is what I'm guessing. It was pandemic.

01:13:58.53
Ken
I was in the middle of the year.

01:13:58.91
Seth Macey
Okay. We're going to go to overlanding. And then people were like, ah, this isn't for me. And then people went back to work. And then in they're like, work sucks. This i was so much better when I was overlanding.

01:14:09.16
Aaron
Yeah.

01:14:10.25
Seth Macey
Okay. And now where do you think it's at today?

01:14:12.62
Ken
Today, let's go with, uh, let's go at 75.

01:14:16.80
Seth Macey
34, uh-huh, a huge crater in the last two years in terms of interest online, Google trends.

01:14:17.84
Ken
No kidding.

01:14:22.22
Aaron
hu

01:14:24.25
Ken
Wow.

01:14:25.83
Seth Macey
Well, I was searching this cause I was going to ask you if you notice people flop out of, uh, out of the industry.

01:14:25.95
Ken
Okay.

01:14:33.30
Ken
Yeah, I mean, i so the metrics that I was just naming off were coming from, I think, ten I was watching a video a couple weeks ago about the attendance to expos, overland expo.

01:14:46.90
Seth Macey
Okay.

01:14:48.04
Ken
There's four really big ones across the country. And and they were they were listing about how the attendance has kind of it's skyrocketed at that same time um that you said it was popular on Google.

01:14:59.23
Ken
I did not expect you to say it's dropped as low as it has. and the last years I think I think I don't know now that I think about it you know maybe that has happened it's happened as far as overland content creators come and go I think it I think I saw a lot of people getting into the space when I said that I was getting into the space you know end of summer 21 and there's definitely been accounts that have just like

01:15:31.65
Ken
you know, not posted in the past couple months or past year, or just dropped off the face of the planet.

01:15:34.13
Seth Macey
Mm hmm.

01:15:34.74
Aaron
Yeah.

01:15:36.39
Seth Macey
Yep.

01:15:37.67
Ken
Things don't pan out the way they hope, you know, or interest change.

01:15:40.62
Seth Macey
Interest change.

01:15:41.99
Aaron
Yeah. And interest is different than doing.

01:15:42.49
Ken
Yeah, you know, it's, it's, maybe it's more.

01:15:43.51
Aaron
it I mean, I was looking up rooftop tents for a long time around that time.

01:15:47.60
Ken
Yeah. Oh yeah. That's right. You were.

01:15:48.93
Aaron
You know, I was, I was really researching it. I was kind of figuring out if it's going to, if I was going to utilize it for the cost and, and, and searching a lot.

01:15:57.88
Ken
I think, I think the problem came from, Also the fact that, you know, when something becomes popular and there is a bandwagon, product companies notice that and prices, you know, adjust accordingly.

01:16:11.15
Seth Macey
True.

01:16:11.29
Ken
And so I think a lot of people got into it with that mindset that we've been talking about this whole time. They got into it with the mindset of I need to have the $65,000 truck.

01:16:24.85
Ken
I need to have the $4,000 tent. So they purchase all these things, spend all this money, and then they realize they went on two camping trips all year.

01:16:31.98
Aaron
yeah

01:16:40.27
Ken
So maybe it's not really worth it to me. And then they start they hit Facebook Marketplace, and then everything's gone.

01:16:42.71
Seth Macey
Right.

01:16:42.74
Aaron
Yeah.

01:16:47.02
Ken
you know And then they haven't posted anything on social media in a year. you know so

01:16:51.10
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:16:51.78
Ken
I think that that played a huge role was also the ah feeling that they had to do it a certain way.

01:16:55.46
Seth Macey
Hmm.

01:16:58.05
Ken
right Someone buys their camera because they feel like they need this camera to be a photographer. And then they realize that they really only got out a couple times that year to take wildlife photography.

01:17:10.13
Ken
Okay, now I'm selling the camera. you know That all plays back to the idea of just get out and use what you got and see if it's for you in the first place.

01:17:21.63
Seth Macey
Yeah. I searched photography too as a, uh, yeah.

01:17:27.35
Aaron
comparison.

01:17:27.66
Ken
Google.

01:17:28.73
Seth Macey
Google trends photography as a search term, 100 out of a hundred in terms of interest, August of 2020 currently a 65.

01:17:38.50
Aaron
Yeah.

01:17:45.03
Aaron
Interesting.

01:17:45.29
Seth Macey
Interesting.

01:17:45.82
Aaron
What was the 2015?

01:17:48.53
Seth Macey
Uh, hang on. 2015.

01:17:54.23
Aaron
Or whatever the chart started. I thought you said that.

01:17:57.78
Seth Macey
Well, so I extended it from 2004. If you, it's weird. If you do 2004 to present worldwide in 2004, the term photography was a 100 out of a hundred on level of interest. And then it's saying the January of 2025 is a 24. That's when you zoom out, but when you zoom into like a five year window, the number is higher. So it's strange. I think it like condensed. It changes the averages somehow.

01:18:25.99
Aaron
maybe i don

01:18:26.57
Seth Macey
going from a hundred in 2004 to do a 24 in January of 2025. Can't be right, but maybe, I don't know.

01:18:32.44
Aaron
Yeah.

01:18:33.56
Seth Macey
Play around with it at home.

01:18:35.01
Aaron
Yeah, I don't know.

01:18:36.17
Ken
Analytics are weird like that. Internet analytics.

01:18:38.82
Aaron
Yeah.

01:18:39.89
Seth Macey
Interesting.

01:18:40.88
Aaron
Hmm.

01:18:41.55
Ken
I still have trouble interpreting my YouTube analytics every once in a while, so.

01:18:46.47
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:18:46.49
Aaron
You and me both.

01:18:49.55
Seth Macey
Well,

01:18:49.60
Aaron
Well, jinx.

01:18:54.46
Aaron
I'll, I'll do the well. Well, Ken, thank you for being on the show. Uh, I will see you tomorrow. I think, but we, we, we, a little cold.

01:19:04.15
Ken
oh i don't know if you will

01:19:07.48
Aaron
Uh, no, I appreciate it. It was, it is definitely ah a palette cleanser and a different look at this whole, uh, thing that Seth and I usually talk about photography and videography and connecting it to mindset.

01:19:18.04
Aaron
We got definitely a bunch of mindset stuff. Um, and I, I thought it's interesting. I think there's a refreshing take on the video and photography genres with someone that it's like, well, that's secondary to what I'm doing, but still very successful at it.

01:19:25.86
Seth Macey
Thank you.

01:19:31.97
Ken
I don't know if you will.

01:19:37.08
Aaron
You know, so still, still figuring it out, still working through it still. going through the the bumps and bruises of Premiere Pro and editing not working the way you want it to or whatever it may be, like figuring it out and pushing through it and and developing a story and a creative and displaying it ah to the world and not only to the world, but for yourself. Like you said, it's a it's a great document, a virtual document of your travels, where you've been, the experiences that you'll have forever.

01:20:09.04
Aaron
And if the audience likes it, great. But you do. So I think that is what I took away from it. ah And thanks for being on the show.

01:20:18.32
Seth Macey
Yeah, thank you.

01:20:18.54
Ken
Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It's been a blast.

01:20:21.20
Seth Macey
It was nice to meet you.

01:20:22.93
Ken
Nice to meet you formally, informally meet you virtually.

01:20:25.38
Seth Macey
That's right, virtually.

01:20:25.45
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

01:20:27.82
Seth Macey
Until next time, guys.

01:20:28.90
Aaron
All right.

01:20:29.12
Ken
Thank you.

01:20:29.88
Aaron
Bye.