Why Hard Work Doesn’t Always Pay Off

Why does hard work sometimes fall short of delivering the results we expect? In this episode, we uncover the non-linear relationship between effort and success, challenging the idea that rewards are always proportional to the work we put in. Through self reflections, we discuss the frustration around fairness, the role of external validation, and the power of self-auditing to find your "fifth gear" without burning out. By asking tough questions about our motivations—why we create, what truly matters, and how to align effort with purpose—this conversation aims to inspire a more intentional, fulfilling approach to chasing your creative goals.

Expect to learn:

-Why success isn’t always proportional to effort
-How to spot diminishing returns in your work
-The importance of peeling back the layers of your "why"
-How external validation can derail your creative process and what to do instead
-Why fairness is an illusion and how accepting this can help you focus on you

Sponsor:

Thanks to Tamron for being our lead sponsor this episode! Explore the 35-150mm f/2.0-2.8 G2 lens with $200 USD & $300 CAD off and deals on many more lenses for your Sony E-mount, Nikon Z, and FUJIFILM X-mount mirrorless cameras by clicking www.tamron-americas.com or by visiting your local Tamron authorized dealer.

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography

Transcript

00:02:58.33
Aaron
Okay.

00:02:58.53
Seth Macey
And hopefully the conversation is relatable and helpful to people because it's a realization that I've painfully been coming to and has caused me a great deal of frustration and maybe some unnecessary suffering.

00:03:10.94
Aaron
Hmm.

00:03:14.61
Seth Macey
And maybe you completely disagree with this. And I realize people are like, get to it, but don't worry. This is part of storytelling technique. I have come to the realization, and maybe you have come to this realization a long time ago, that effort and results are not a one to one ratio and are nonlinear.

00:03:41.58
Seth Macey
and in fact are most likely diminishing returns.

00:03:49.48
Aaron
Hmm.

00:03:50.21
Seth Macey
Yes.

00:03:51.44
Aaron
Yeah. Okay.

00:03:53.56
Seth Macey
Why this has been a struggle for me is because, and kind of turned my world upside down. I feel like you know me, people on the show know me. I put a lot of pride into identifying as someone who exerts a lot of effort I put a lot of value on perseverance, pushing when things are difficult. And I'm not saying to remove or reduce all those things. I think those things build character, build resilience, which serve you in the long run. But I think you can look around and we all know people online or wherever we're like, I know that guy or that girl, like,

00:04:40.41
Seth Macey
They don't do much and things are just happening. And my point is, and what I've been struggling with is that the fairness of it. I've always been of the belief that results, rewards are linear. The more you put in the equal value or the equal

00:05:03.80
Seth Macey
results you will receive and I'm slowly finding out as I get into my early 30s that this is not true and I've been struggling to deal with the fairness of that and it's kind of distorted or reversed the way that I have believed for so long that the world operates and

00:05:27.55
Seth Macey
I feel like I've surrounded myself with a lot of content and people who not maliciously or through any fault of their own, but that perpetuate that idea. I'll stop.

00:05:50.11
Aaron
Well, there's a lot there.

00:05:54.41
Aaron
It's funny that you brought this up. I just with a student wrote a or put a graph on my whiteboard that kind of illustrated this on the Y axis. It was grades F, D, C, B, A. um The X axis, it was ah objectively the amount of effort put in and my line was not a just a straight line. There are lots of data points. But I felt like the trend, what I wanted to show was usually the trend is if you're putting in a lot of work, the grades or the results or whatever you're looking for, typically respond to that. If you're not, don't typically. Now there's outliers, right? There's insanely talented people that

00:06:45.36
Aaron
might be able to sit down and throw together a really compelling narrative and movie in a couple of hours. or edit a hundred photos really well fast or write a whole album of great songs in a week when it might take someone two years to do the same thing. So I think there are outliers but and that might be what you're running into a little bit of seeing

00:07:17.27
Aaron
people have just crazy, easy success. And there's a lot of things I think that go into it, which we'll probably get into, like you said, lots of tangents on the show. Um, and then maybe defining what is your hard work. Is it as hard as the hardest work?

00:07:39.53
Seth Macey
Yeah. So here's the crossroads I met. So, and this is where my brain is confused. So part of me wants to maintain that belief that effort and results as a one-to-one ratio.

00:07:57.58
Seth Macey
And.

00:08:00.53
Seth Macey
The other part of me is tinkering with this new concept to me. Some people might be like, well, yeah, took you long enough to get there, bud. Um, and it has me questioning, okay, perhaps your level of effort is actually not as high as you think it is. And therefore maybe certain results that you would like are not coming as quickly.

00:08:31.42
Seth Macey
But if you are incorrect on that presumption,

00:08:36.68
Aaron
Just dig deeper.

00:08:38.63
Seth Macey
you run the risk of digging deeper and potentially going in reverse or paddling upstream. So where I'm at right now is trying to do an audit of is your perceived level of effort towards the things you want,

00:08:59.08
Seth Macey
really high and you need to back off a bit or are you in the land of delusion and your fifth gear is really second gear. And people know on this show, this has kind of been a pursuit of mine is where can I, how can I, what what is fifth gear? And back to the crossroads.

00:09:29.28
Seth Macey
I'm trying to decide whether what the what the recipe is or the move forward is to, I guess, avoid frustration or avoid the feelings that arise when I guess fairness isn't a factor at play in terms of result, at least from things that I've seen in recency.

00:09:57.97
Aaron
Yeah.

00:10:02.23
Aaron
Here's maybe a crude analogy, but I think it's relative to recent, recent news with the GLDP, GLDP drugs.

00:10:14.72
Aaron
Am I saying that right?

00:10:15.24
Seth Macey
GLP GLP one.

00:10:16.02
Aaron
GLP drugs, like Ozempic. There's this Now people struggle sometimes to lose weight, especially as you get older and can work really hard at it. try to eat I'm following this diet. i'm I'm working out as much as I can. It's like I have to stick with it for two years to see a trend line going down.

00:10:43.66
Aaron
Like i I have to really work hard and stick with it. If I look at a donut, I'm going to gain five pounds, you know, and then across the way you see people with great success in the result of.

00:10:51.85
Seth Macey
Right. Yeah.

00:10:59.93
Aaron
I lost weight. Now we're not going to talk about whether that's healthy or not, or what kind of weight, lean muscle mass, bone density, any of that stuff, but just the Wow, that person got to that point.

00:11:13.90
Aaron
That person cut a lot of pounds.

00:11:18.94
Aaron
Fast. With a let's call it a cheat code, just for argument's sake, they didn't they didn't necessarily.

00:11:27.74
Seth Macey
Right.

00:11:29.71
Aaron
Hopefully they're combining.

00:11:31.15
Seth Macey
With the caveat of maybe they're including exercise in the morning.

00:11:31.47
Aaron
ah

00:11:35.07
Seth Macey
Yeah, maybe it's a supplement. Yep.

00:11:36.55
Aaron
Yeah, of course. um But in this extreme example, taking taking the shot to just lose weight without putting in the work or changing any habits and getting the results that person A is really looking for and trying their best or working hard at it to get there. Now working Now, like you said, is there working hard the same as fifth gear? Maybe not, but maybe they have kids or, you know, a partner or a job or a house to take care of. Like, maybe it's not possible to do three sessions at the gym and stay ripped at whatever 45, 50. Maybe that's tricky. So I think in the, in the example, sometimes you can't compare.

00:12:29.68
Aaron
apples to oranges in terms of the result being the measure of or the correlation to how hard someone worked or didn't work and they're getting this thing. Like I would think you got like you said audit yourself and say, I think here's here's Here's another aside. I think you and I are similar hard workers. We have the capability to do it. we can We can get projects done. We show up for this podcast every week. There's a lot of stuff behind the scenes beyond ah recording for an hour ah once a week. However,

00:13:17.81
Aaron
We're not, I feel like if either one of us was working as hard as we possibly could on this podcast, based on who we are, we might be driving the other person crazy. Cause it's like, there's a lot of room for us to be on it. Have calls, have calls every night. We can have a call every night. There's 20 minutes that we could have every night to have a call to say, what are we doing tomorrow to make this go forward?

00:13:45.05
Aaron
Right? There's room for that to happen. Now the question becomes like, how okay are you with where it's going and at the speed that it's going and enjoying a lot of other life? Cause I'm not sure.

00:14:04.01
Aaron
We see the hard workers like David Goggins or Tiger Woods or whomever. You can you can look at the examples. um Cameron Haynes' son who just, he sent me that, broke the record for most pull-ups in 24 hours. That's working hard to get to those points, but it's very, it has to be pretty single focused, like single-mindedly focused. And I know both of us, I can speak for myself especially,

00:14:33.62
Aaron
love a lot of things about life and don't want to just be all in on tunnel vision something.

00:14:44.46
Seth Macey
Yeah. And I think this is what I'm getting at, too. So. I love surrounding myself with podcasts and content and books around that because it inspires me and it fires me up to go out and try and do stuff. What I think, though, for me is I actually need to remove some of my attention from, you know, the true at Haynes pull up record or reading David Goggins book four times, because I think it starts to build a.

00:15:14.24
Seth Macey
perception that that level of effort is automatically required to do great things and failing to understand that you can let off the gas and you can relax and you can, as you said, enjoy other things in life and still not lose your identity as somebody who puts in a lot of effort and care and and time into things. The other thing I think too, to your point about the GLP ones, right? One person let's say is on GLP one and loses a ton of weight, which is excellent. And there's the other person who has been working out for four years, maybe can't afford those drugs, let's say in this example.

00:16:05.51
Seth Macey
and is really struggling to move the needle. I feel like you if if you run the risk of looking across and being like, that's just so unfair. I've been working so hard and I feel like this is a little bit of what I'm venting and I'm aware of it. And I'm trying to get back to a place where I'm running my own race and focusing on myself. And also understanding that if you're that person who, and in our example, is just still trying to do it the, I don't want to say natural way, because that loads it, but you you know what I'm saying, non-pharmacologically.

00:16:50.08
Seth Macey
You have to understand that it's not a waste of effort because the results aren't coming as fast as the other persons. I feel like reminding yourself that I'm still building resilience.

00:17:05.70
Seth Macey
I'm still building character. I'm still building qualities that will help me in life in the longterm.

00:17:13.30
Aaron
yeah

00:17:14.32
Seth Macey
And that person that you're looking at may not be, or they may be, but

00:17:21.40
Seth Macey
Regardless, you are. And these are things I write down to myself and remind myself of.

00:17:24.11
Aaron
Yeah.

00:17:29.46
Seth Macey
And getting back to a place where

00:17:38.09
Seth Macey
I'm running my own race and then I question, okay, well, why, why are you looking elsewhere at times? This isn't like a daily thing. It was just a thought I had for this episode because I've bought myself a few times and I, people who have listened for a long time know that I always try and work backwards through wise.

00:17:46.12
Aaron
Yeah, I like I like it.

00:17:58.26
Seth Macey
Why are you doing this all the way until you can't answer anymore? okay Like, why are you, why are you doing that? Why? And, uh, I think to, I can speak probably for most people when we get frustrated at what I've described and we ask why it's because we want what maybe that person has. And then if we're somebody who feels like we've been putting in a ton of effort and we don't know the other person's story, but let's say we feel like they haven't put in the same effort as you.

00:18:36.91
Seth Macey
You can say, well, that's that's not how the world's supposed to work, man. That's unfair. Screw that person.

00:18:43.47
Aaron
yeah

00:18:45.80
Seth Macey
And it's then it's, whoa.

00:18:50.66
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's where you have to, we all have to step back and it is hard to, there's a balance of having blinders on and doing what you are setting out to do and taking notes from other people.

00:19:08.72
Aaron
I think there's a, there's a really delicate balance there.

00:19:08.73
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:19:14.35
Aaron
You don't want to be working towards your goals in a cave because you're probably missing out on strategy or ideas or just examples that you can pull from and make your life much easier.

00:19:29.13
Seth Macey
Right.

00:19:30.13
Aaron
Right. But at the same time, there's a There's a balance between looking at that stuff and actually doing stuff and then looking too long and not doing the stuff.

00:19:44.94
Aaron
You're just looking too long and getting annoyed. So now it's pulling you away from stuff, from your goals, from what you're trying to do, because you're kind of like spending time with envy, spending time with jealousy, spending time with judgment, like how that person get that.

00:19:59.02
Seth Macey
And.

00:20:04.33
Aaron
I deserve that. Whatever it is, they're all kind of assumptions as well too about like how the world should work where we all know that nothing's guaranteed and there's there is this sort of lotto effect that does occur and it can be frustrating if you're putting in the effort and then someone just, you know, I'm working hard every single day and someone that's done nothing buys a $1 lotto ticket and wins $2.4 billion. dollars Like, okay, that's good for them, but it doesn't seem quite fair, but that's...

00:20:38.04
Seth Macey
Right.

00:20:43.12
Seth Macey
That's life. And that's where, it's you know, getting to that point, right.

00:20:46.33
Aaron
um

00:20:47.60
Seth Macey
Uh, but I think for me, what's really important right now is, and obviously I'm using my own firsthand experience in the hopes that it's relatable for listeners is doing what I've always done, which is experimenting in this instance.

00:21:07.32
Seth Macey
If I pull back for a month, two months, what happens? If you go even harder with effort, what happens? Is it sustainable? Are you enjoying yourself? To experiment with that crossroads we described earlier, which is the self audit. Am I,

00:21:33.69
Seth Macey
Is my perceived level of effort a mirage or is what I actually need just to chill out a bit and look around and maybe just relax.

00:21:52.19
Aaron
Yeah, and you know, I think too there's a there's an echo chamber of copying success that isn't necessarily real success, but we all still see it. And what I mean by that is there might be a ah very successful adventure photographer who gets Right time, created his brand, did a great job, gets these big gigs, makes movies, huge endorsement deals. Awesome. They're doing the real thing.

00:22:31.85
Aaron
But there's a tier of photographers and content creators that can make just about the same look of content and material. Like you can be an ambassador for a cool clothing company. It looks really wow. Oh, he works with that brand.

00:22:54.44
Aaron
How do you get that brand? Well, you just have to apply online and you have to have more than a thousand followers. And then you get a free jacket every season. And then it looks like you work with that brand. So there's a lot of like that looks so cool. And how'd that person get that? But did they really get to the point where it's that that we're judging it as?

00:23:19.42
Seth Macey
Right.

00:23:21.06
Aaron
You know, I mean, like we, we plan our retreats every year.

00:23:22.03
Seth Macey
Yeah

00:23:25.26
Aaron
It's one retreat a year. They go really well, but it's so much work to get there. So people looking at it might just go like, Oh, they just go like, they go on a retreat, they do this vacation, but there's like so much behind it.

00:23:39.76
Aaron
And it's a sh struggle. It's not, it's not, we don't wake up and like, we're going to Alaska. There's a ton of work that happens there, but to someone else it might look like they're just going to Alaska.

00:23:54.89
Aaron
They don't equate to what the work is actually there.

00:23:59.81
Seth Macey
Right.

00:23:59.91
Aaron
Right?

00:24:00.88
Seth Macey
Yeah. I think to this topic didn't come from because I don't spend a ton of time on socials. I mean, my phone locks me out after 20 minutes online for the day.

00:24:10.37
Aaron
Nice.

00:24:11.71
Seth Macey
So I'm not this. This realization isn't really based on that. I think it's all internal. I feel like there's times where I'm like, wow, you crushed today.

00:24:23.51
Seth Macey
You did so much and. Maybe I'll do that for five, six, seven days in a row over the course of like a month. And, uh, sometimes I'm like, man, the needle should have moved a lot more. What, like, what the hell? So it's more from an internal,

00:24:48.11
Seth Macey
point of view where it's just like, either my expectations are need to be dialed back and I need to remind myself to zoom out even more than I already do. I need to develop more patience or I need to change his strategy. In other words, my level of effort. It's all internal, I feel like, and I'm also trying to get to a place where the word deserve is gone from my vocabulary.

00:25:18.40
Aaron
Yeah, that would be smart.

00:25:19.18
Seth Macey
is if I've learned anything and i don't I feel like I don't really struggle with this a ton, but I have come to the realization that nobody deserves shit, right?

00:25:29.72
Aaron
yeah

00:25:30.53
Seth Macey
Like that, that video you spent, like let's, let's use the Alaska video I made. Okay.

00:25:36.47
Aaron
<unk>

00:25:37.48
Seth Macey
The little two minute trailer that took me probably a month. just working on picking the clips, picking the music, color grading, doing the sound design, all that fun stuff.

00:25:50.62
Aaron
Yeah.

00:25:51.60
Seth Macey
I sent it to you. You thought it was really good. I was proud of it too.

00:25:55.14
Aaron
Yeah. I knew not to give notes because I could tell how much time it would take.

00:25:59.28
Seth Macey
I think well i when I send things to you now, I'm doing a new thing where I say I'm accepting notes. That's my new favorite term when sending work to a friend or something.

00:26:06.00
Aaron
Yeah.

00:26:08.02
Seth Macey
I'm accepting notes because it opens the door for you to rip it apart or tell me what you like. I think I did say I'm accepting notes on this and you're like, I love it. I was like, OK, you tell me if you didn't anyways.

00:26:19.80
Aaron
Yeah.

00:26:20.76
Seth Macey
So we have what, like 450 subs on YouTube. We put the the video there because we wanted to show like.

00:26:28.51
Aaron
Huh?

00:26:29.10
Seth Macey
What last year's trip was like.

00:26:32.42
Seth Macey
And.

00:26:37.08
Seth Macey
In this instance, I feel like I have my head on right like I normally do. I feel like there are times when I don't, but I could have easily been like, you know what? A month's worth of effort. This video is so good. I've sent it to a bunch of people. They love it. This thing needs to do like twenty this thing deserves 20,000 plays on YouTube.

00:27:00.27
Aaron
yeah

00:27:00.45
Seth Macey
Like I got all this crazy 4K footage of bears. It's timed perfectly to music. I haven't seen this kind of content. Obviously, I'm being this is hyperbole.

00:27:08.89
Aaron
Yeah.

00:27:09.66
Seth Macey
There's people who make a lot better videos, but I was proud of what I made based on my current skill level. I could have easily and what I'm getting at is I could have easily gotten to a mindset where I equated the the level of effort to.

00:27:23.00
Seth Macey
plays or likes or people resharing it. It did like 150 views on YouTube. I don't know if anybody shared it on Instagram, but I am proud of the fact that that didn't bother me in this instance, because

00:27:38.52
Seth Macey
I learned, and this is what i'm I'm getting at as a whole, as I'm talking through this kind of, not issue, but self-realization. I learned so much doing that for a month, despite the lack of plays. Like I learned color grading, I learned better storytelling, I learned

00:27:55.75
Seth Macey
You know, you name it. And four years from now, that found building, continuing to build that foundation of skills will continue to serve me despite it being a quote flop.

00:27:57.41
Aaron
Yeah.

00:28:08.99
Seth Macey
So like not going into things with the expectation of I worked so hard on this. It's so amazing. This deserves people's love. No, it doesn't. It deserves zero plays.

00:28:19.67
Aaron
Yeah. I think with the without a huge following, I think the content that we're proud of, I've just come to the acceptance that this is not going to do well.

00:28:36.36
Aaron
And that's okay. Like I like it.

00:28:37.68
Seth Macey
Yes.

00:28:38.03
Aaron
I'm going to put it up. It's, it serves a purpose.

00:28:39.27
Seth Macey
Right. so

00:28:40.92
Aaron
Uh, we have a, now we have a bookmark where we can send people to take a look at past expeditions and it is, it is what it is.

00:28:52.11
Seth Macey
So I think that's the antidote for flipping the value between reward versus doing is in the moment reminding yourself of the level. the character that you're building, I'm teaching myself to be focused for three hours, which is hard to do in today's world. Believe me, the amount of times I want to reach for my phone or check my email, I have to put up physical barriers. I don't do those things. It gets hard to pay attention to a project for two or three hours at a time. I'm learning that skill. I'm learning all the, you know, all the other things I listed and understanding and reminding yourself in that moment, I feel like automatically takes you away

00:29:31.63
Seth Macey
from placing the value on how well this is going to quote perform, perform being feedback, perform being plays, perform being likes, perform being sales from your ad, et cetera, and into a place where it's, man, I'm learning so much.

00:29:38.00
Aaron
Mm hmm.

00:29:48.37
Seth Macey
I'm building my skills. And it's a privilege to be able to, to then publish the product of that somewhere.

00:29:59.33
Seth Macey
as opposed to the why we've talked about this being, if I do a really good job, it'll get shared a ton. And then you're just setting an unrealistic expectation up.

00:30:09.89
Aaron
Yeah.

00:30:10.15
Seth Macey
And then you also run into the arena of maybe even unknowingly, you just start creating things for the sake of performance, which may happen, but I imagine you'll feel very unfulfilled in the longterm.

00:30:30.00
Aaron
Yeah, another analogy just to drive it home. I i am i'm not, but I'm just going to say this. I am great at classical oboe and I'm getting annoyed that Taylor Swift has so many fans in a sold out tour.

00:30:45.07
Aaron
Like I might be the best. Obest. Is that right?

00:30:51.38
Seth Macey
People may think that you actually play the oboe.

00:30:51.73
Aaron
Uh,

00:30:53.14
Seth Macey
He does not.

00:30:53.48
Aaron
Yeah, I do not. Uh, I might be the best in the country. Great music, great oboe music, but I'm not going to compete with pop music and a pop tour, but I practice my craft. I put my stuff out there. The listeners that see it, like it and want it. Like the ones that are looking for oboe music, like it.

00:31:22.26
Aaron
And, and that's my mountain to climb.

00:31:25.58
Seth Macey
And that's enough, I feel like.

00:31:27.65
Aaron
Yeah. But if I'm comparing it to Taylor Swift or Kendrick Lamar or Superbowl halftime, why aren't they asking me to be there? I've worked so hard at Oboe.

00:31:39.96
Seth Macey
Right.

00:31:41.15
Aaron
And it's kind of like.

00:31:41.24
Seth Macey
Well, this is the same conversation we had with um Ken.

00:31:45.96
Aaron
Hmm.

00:31:46.99
Seth Macey
On the show, we were talking about you know people filming on red cameras in all this crazy high production value. People feel like, all right, that's what I have to do to make good content. I need to get i work my way up to a red 8K camera, black magic camera, and I need to you know, higher talent and I need to make all these crazy hype. Super cool videos, which is like that's fine because you I'm sure you you learn a lot of stuff doing that and high quality. I'm not saying there's not a place for high quality video, but automatically thinking that I need to get to that tier because. That's where you stop and go because why? And I feel like we skipped that stage, we skip that because why and we just go and do stuff.

00:32:39.01
Seth Macey
And I wish I had a better piece of advice for how to have that because why pop into your brain before. Before doing something, because I i think it's important that you know why you're doing something.

00:32:52.17
Aaron
Mm hmm.

00:32:55.37
Seth Macey
I really do, because then you I'm not going to sit here and be righteous because then you know if you're doing it for the right reasons, but at least you have a little bit of insight into. The authenticity behind it, who you are, who you want to become.

00:33:10.18
Aaron
Yeah, and you can change and cycle through things and decide, you know what, that's actually not for me. And, and move on. I think that's all, that's all fair. And I think trying things is great and working at things is great and seeing what sticks with you for life at any sort of level is great and learning a bunch of things that I think is great.

00:33:35.52
Aaron
to to be so steadfast on one thing that you become a robot. To me, you're missing a lot. You might be the the the top king at whatever the subject is, but you're missing a lot of other things, you know? So I just think ah Finding your why, finding what you're doing stuff, what you're looking for. If you want to make great content or cinematic content that's 20 minutes long, 10 minutes long, three minutes long, it's going to be hard to make a reel that does well. And also impossible because they can only be three minutes long.

00:34:22.52
Seth Macey
That does well.

00:34:25.44
Aaron
does well in the terms of views and people sharing and caring.

00:34:30.87
Seth Macey
Yeah, I've had this, ah this realization. So going back to asking yourself why and continuing to ask yourself why until you get to a place where you can't answer anymore throughout the day, it's going to be really sappy, but I've gotten to a place where it's always love. Like I was, I was walking my dog cause I make a habit to routinely ask myself why throughout the day I was walking grizzly.

00:34:58.30
Seth Macey
I was like, why am I doing this? like Well, uh, I know it's good for me. It's good to get outside. I know he likes it. It's good exercise for him. Uh, okay. Well, why do you care about him getting good exercise? Why do you care about you getting good exercise and getting outside?

00:35:23.10
Seth Macey
Well, because I know it'll improve my mental health. I know it'll improve my physical health. The same for the dog. I know that it's good, good exercise for him. He likes it. It'll make him happier. Okay. Why is that important? Why is it important that you have good mental health, that you're in physical health? Well, so that I can show up for Haley, for my family, um,

00:35:46.12
Aaron
Playing a faculty basketball game without feeling like you're going to die.

00:35:47.77
Seth Macey
playing a faculty basketball game. You see where I'm going with this, right? And it's like, okay, well, why is it important that you show up for healthy and a healthy mind for your girlfriend, your wife, your husband, whoever? Well, cause I love them. Why is it important that, you know, grizzly gets his walk, that he likes it, that it's well, cause I love him.

00:36:13.63
Seth Macey
And you can do, if if you do this experiment for so many different things, it is crazy how many times you get to love almost almost every single thing.

00:36:29.21
Seth Macey
You, you can, you really you related to that. At least me, I'm not trying to be sappy.

00:36:33.29
Aaron
Yeah.

00:36:34.10
Seth Macey
Like literally do this experiment and you can and keep going backwards until you can't anymore.

00:36:40.55
Aaron
Yeah.

00:36:42.71
Seth Macey
And you'll find out a lot about yourself. Like if you do it for, like like if if we did that for off the cuff here for why you take pictures. I'm not saying we have to get to love, but I'd be interested to hear this. Why you like photos, photography.

00:37:01.80
Aaron
You want me to go through it?

00:37:02.49
Seth Macey
Can we run this experiment? Yeah.

00:37:04.14
Aaron
Yeah.

00:37:04.75
Seth Macey
Just be honest. Don't feel like you need to get to where I got, but

00:37:07.85
Aaron
No. ah Because I love it. No. I think to start, I've always been attracted to ah hobbies, if you will, or passions that turn my brain into a, uh, an active of meditation where I'm like, I can get lost editing.

00:37:29.37
Aaron
I can get lost in nature. I can get lost. If there's a wildlife moment, I can get lost at a sunset. I can get lost playing guitar for hours. I can get lost golfing, honestly.

00:37:41.64
Seth Macey
OK.

00:37:42.46
Aaron
So that's the first attractive layer where it's Hey, this is somewhat ah of a break and escape from all of the rest of life.

00:37:54.38
Seth Macey
OK. Now, why is that important?

00:37:59.11
Aaron
Because I think rest for your brain and recouping and taking a break from the the monkey mind, jumping from thought to thought or going through your day, just problem solving. It is nice to have some sort of thing that you can just attach to and focus on.

00:38:24.59
Aaron
Call it a distraction, call it a active meditation, call it whatever you want to call it. It takes you away from the the busyness of the mind in a in a different sort of way.

00:38:36.29
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:38:38.84
Aaron
It becomes creative, it becomes problem-solving, there's a excitement to setting up a certain Shot or in product photography can be a little mundane But there's there's certain jobs and projects that can get you really excited to like do things and I find myself Putting in a lot of effort sometimes like like you were talking about in the beginning but putting in a lot of effort not because I want recognition and or or them to understand how long it took to

00:39:13.67
Aaron
set up a Valentine's shot and buy rose petals and light 50 T lights to make a certain look happen. But I do it because I like, I want it to work. I want it to create art, if you will. I want to have fun with it. I want to dive into it fully. Then deeper than that.

00:39:43.57
Aaron
but Being honest, i think it's I think it's cool having hobbies that you're proud of. I think it's cool to be able to tell people you do certain things.

00:39:52.53
Seth Macey
Why?

00:39:54.29
Aaron
I like the seizing of life and the external validation of, oh, that's really cool that you can do that.

00:40:05.47
Aaron
You have you have some talent. That's neat. Look at these photos. That's always a fun thing. Can I buy a print? Oh, absolutely amazing. So someone appreciating the hard work that you put in.

00:40:20.22
Seth Macey
So I think if you go even another step further, where you've gotten to creating something impactful that people like, or if you get down the very base layer, it's connection for you.

00:40:36.35
Aaron
Yeah, I would agree. and And the connection we've made from you and I, from our trips, doing this podcast, all the guests.

00:40:44.66
Seth Macey
So I feel like when you get lost or you feel like you're lost, if you can trace your steps back to that,

00:40:56.14
Seth Macey
I think you can find peace and get back on track or realize, wow, I have really lost the plot. I've really diverged maybe for better, but maybe for worse too.

00:41:10.58
Aaron
Yeah.

00:41:12.92
Seth Macey
And I, I, I have found myself when I can't answer why and get down to a really raw foundation,

00:41:26.03
Seth Macey
or concept love was my example or yours was connection. And I just can't answer. Why am I doing this?

00:41:36.13
Seth Macey
Often I'm in a mindless mode, a mindless mode where I'm a hamster on a wheel and

00:41:41.05
Aaron
Mm hmm.

00:41:48.60
Seth Macey
there's not much purpose behind it. Now, does that mean you need to do everything you do with purpose? I don't know if there is consensus on that. I think there's a time and a place for doing things just to do them. For example, I'm relaxing on my phone in bed, just doom scrolling for five minutes. Let's say, I mean, I guess you could argue even that has a Y down to its score.

00:42:21.84
Seth Macey
But I feel like ultimately if it is a theme where there is no emotionally compelling reason that you can work backwards towards and identify, it may be time to reassess.

00:42:34.48
Seth Macey
Personal opinion.

00:42:34.55
Aaron
Yeah, especially things that are taking up a lot of time.

00:42:37.30
Seth Macey
A lot of time. Things that are taking up a lot of time because then I feel like you can also get into a place where you can start to

00:42:49.62
Seth Macey
really define what is essential. I think having the why can be synonymous with this is essential to me.

00:43:00.47
Aaron
Yeah.

00:43:01.54
Seth Macey
Can be.

00:43:04.07
Aaron
Yeah. And I think a lot of things have very different layers and you can take down, there could be multiple wise, you know, my, my path went to connection, but I could go a whole different way of making.

00:43:11.96
Seth Macey
but you mean

00:43:17.01
Seth Macey
Well, you could go, why is connection important too?

00:43:19.63
Aaron
Well, even even I could have, I could have started from the beginning and got to extra income and why that's

00:43:19.72
Seth Macey
like another layer Why is extra income important?

00:43:28.23
Aaron
very nice you know i could have gotten to opportunities photography has given me a lot of opportunities and and yeah and see if they

00:43:35.30
Seth Macey
Why is it important to build opportunities? Right. And then you can go down that. Well, because it shows that I can create things out of nothing. Why is that important? Because it shows that I have confidence. Why is confidence important? Because it allows me to be a better version of myself. Why isn't it important to be a better version of myself? Like you can get to such insightful places if you can just ask yourself these questions.

00:44:00.44
Aaron
Yeah.

00:44:03.61
Aaron
i It made me, it made me invent a quote.

00:44:03.87
Seth Macey
and

00:44:06.71
Seth Macey
Just now?

00:44:06.79
Aaron
I did it myself. Yeah. Uh, don't make things for them to do well, make things for you to do well.

00:44:15.97
Seth Macey
Yeah, nice.

00:44:17.53
Aaron
You know, like, I think we can get lost in this social media algorithm and nonsense of like, trying to figure out nonstop how do we get more likes and follows and views and keep going at it and keep getting frustrated but it's like again backing it up hey why do we even like making reels or videos like what what is our end goal here is this is this an alignment am i living my most authentic self by spending this much time doing certain things that are not quite in alignment with my values or

00:45:06.01
Aaron
or morals or whatever it may be. you know it's we can We can chase down the wrong way when and think. We can disguise it. really We're really good at, especially with ah addiction, our brain is very good at disguising addiction as something that's needed and okay.

00:45:27.05
Seth Macey
Or righteous, right?

00:45:27.14
Aaron
And yeah, we can we can easily disguise trying to get you know, uh, more of those numbers on social media as like, why I'm, I'm doing this for, uh, companies to reach out to me and to find me and, and, uh, that's how you do it. Okay. There's a lot of other ways there are.

00:45:55.85
Seth Macey
Yeah. Cause you can go with that example.

00:45:56.24
Aaron
amen

00:45:57.29
Seth Macey
Okay. Why is that important?

00:45:58.37
Aaron
Yeah.

00:45:58.44
Seth Macey
The companies reach out to me so that I can make more money while you can make more money doing anything.

00:46:00.51
Aaron
yeah

00:46:07.77
Aaron
Yeah. how How many hours are you spending trying to make things that will then create them to reach out to you versus when I take that hours and reach out to them. Right. You can really flip a lot of the stuff on its head.

00:46:20.15
Aaron
If you unfold it and look at it like you're saying, go back to where's the meaning behind it.

00:46:26.97
Seth Macey
until you can't anymore. I think that's the most important factor of the exercise until you cannot.

00:46:28.62
Aaron
Hmm.

00:46:31.73
Seth Macey
Where do you hit? Where do you hit resistance? Because that's the building blocks of who you are.

00:46:37.86
Aaron
Mm hmm.

00:46:38.54
Seth Macey
Right. And I think it's also an opportunity to be honest to if I'm if I'm saying I think your example was why am I spending five hours making reels?

00:46:49.44
Seth Macey
Well, because I like when they do half a million plays. Why do I like when they do half a million plays? So it makes me feel like that makes me feel like I'm loved. Maybe it makes me feel like I'm good. Why is that worthwhile or why, why is that important that I feel validated?

00:47:17.02
Seth Macey
I'm just, I'm being random.

00:47:18.13
Aaron
Yeah.

00:47:19.19
Seth Macey
Like I'm making up a fictitious person.

00:47:20.04
Aaron
Yeah.

00:47:22.03
Seth Macey
Maybe, maybe I haven't gotten that in my life before.

00:47:24.91
Aaron
Yeah.

00:47:28.74
Seth Macey
And then you're like, whoa, okay.

00:47:33.48
Aaron
Yeah.

00:47:33.74
Seth Macey
I feel like at the very least you come to real, i i obviously there's lots of different pathways that could go. And I just picked one to fit the narrative that we're trying to explain here. But the point is, I feel like you can get to such an insight all on your own that allows you to then by going backwards, you can then make moves forwards that are better aligned with you or who you would like to be.

00:47:59.53
Aaron
Yeah.

00:48:01.34
Seth Macey
And I feel like that's just another way of your nice saying, make things to make you well. make Don't make things that do well, make things that make you well.

00:48:07.76
Aaron
Yeah.

00:48:10.47
Seth Macey
And maybe those two things are ah interchanged on the Venn diagram.

00:48:16.05
Aaron
yeah

00:48:16.44
Seth Macey
And I feel like that's the creators that we all really look up to and love and respect their Venn diagram of. I'm going to make content that makes me feel well and does well, though I would imagine more often than not are so overlapped.

00:48:37.14
Seth Macey
Do you understand what I'm saying?

00:48:40.25
Aaron
Yeah, ah so especially those let's quote unquote those that have made it those that have a really big following or what they they're doing.

00:48:51.70
Seth Macey
or just general success, right? Even outside of the digital world.

00:48:55.28
Aaron
Oh, sure. Sure. They're, they're doing what they're doing what they want to do and maybe somewhat have to do, but for the most part, it's not, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make an opinion here. So don't, don't roast me, but I, I've noticed over the years, I feel like when someone, a random person is content in life,

00:49:22.10
Aaron
You see really genuine posts. You see a genuine piece of work. I feel like when something's missing or they're going through a hard time and I've been there and that's why I'm speaking to this, it becomes more constant.

00:49:44.01
Aaron
It becomes more, I'm going to feel better in life with these dopamine hits, these

00:49:45.01
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:49:52.54
Aaron
creations of content that then get comments, that then get interaction, that then get connection, that then have people follow me, that then makes me have a sense of purpose. It fills a lot of those check boxes when things, those check boxes are empty.

00:50:10.50
Aaron
It really does.

00:50:10.77
Seth Macey
Now someone may say, why is that maybe not the best route forwards or is it like if, if, if you're,

00:50:19.26
Aaron
not gonna I'm not gonna judge if it's not or it is again I'm i'm so i'm not calling anyone out I've i been there I've noticed my own frequency in posting I could look at it I could look

00:50:32.89
Seth Macey
Use your, use your own experience in, I guess.

00:50:34.86
Aaron
i could look at ah I could look at a graph from 2019 to today and see spikes and valleys and then look at the dates and tell you exactly what's going on in my life, what's happening, what what big life events have happened, and there would be a correlation between Oh, you were you were really healthy then.

00:51:02.92
Aaron
You were in a relationship, a really good relationship. ah You were much quieter on social media. Oh, you went through ah ah yeah you were you went through a hard time.

00:51:10.62
Seth Macey
Just naturally.

00:51:14.32
Aaron
You were you know looking for attention. You were single. You were much more frequent on social media. it would be ah an exact correlation.

00:51:29.11
Aaron
I can almost guarantee it.

00:51:29.77
Seth Macey
But are there negative consequences for that? or Because some may argue it's a cope, perhaps.

00:51:33.77
Aaron
Absolutely.

00:51:36.75
Seth Macey
And what is wrong with that?

00:51:36.78
Aaron
absolutely I don't think and think it's terrible and sometimes it can get you to the other side. But what I do think is it is addicting. So if you go if you lean into it, just like anything else, when you're having a hard time, even though things might be getting better or you feel better,

00:51:55.28
Aaron
Now you're stuck. now you Now you've created a beast that i have to we've we've all heard the people that like i have to I have to post once a day.

00:52:08.38
Aaron
This is like a made up rule that you've created for yourself, but okay. But it it it comes into this, this thing that can be overtake a lot of your real ability to connect your real ability to in real life, IRL to be with people and go do things. I.

00:52:30.49
Aaron
like anything. I love it. But how many people have missed out on social things because they're jammed in front of a screen trying to like create content and make

00:52:41.03
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:52:49.62
Aaron
reels or stories or update people and you're like missing out on life. Now, again, there is a balance and I do it. I post things sometimes more often than not. I'm not putting it down. I think it's really cool, but there is a balance. There's a balance to it.

00:53:13.31
Seth Macey
Yeah, I mean, my whole my whole. Thought process now, because I I I share stuff too rarely, but I do.

00:53:21.90
Aaron
Yeah.

00:53:22.93
Seth Macey
My whole. Thought process is after pressing publish, it'll say one person liked and I click it and it's like, oh.

00:53:29.16
Aaron
It's me.

00:53:34.73
Seth Macey
Yeah, it's Aaron or a slate like this cool. but Right on.

00:53:39.57
Aaron
Yeah.

00:53:40.53
Seth Macey
And then I close my phone and sleep easy.

00:53:43.04
Aaron
Yeah. That's great.

00:53:45.24
Seth Macey
Because. Everything I did prior to pushing publish. Is not gone whether I wake up to a million likes or zero.

00:54:00.47
Seth Macey
You can't take away from somebody something that they don't have and in this instance I don't have the feeling that I deserve to in this scenario wake up to a barrage of.

00:54:16.01
Seth Macey
comments, likes, plays.

00:54:17.77
Aaron
Yeah.

00:54:18.90
Seth Macey
There's just no expectation.

00:54:23.19
Aaron
Yeah.

00:54:23.97
Seth Macey
Maybe that's how can you be let down if you have no expectations?

00:54:29.96
Seth Macey
I can picture an ideal outcome, which is different from expecting it or deserving it or feeling I've earned it.

00:54:32.45
Aaron
Right. I think a true artist who lets go of. What everyone else thinks they're doing it for them.

00:54:48.21
Seth Macey
Yes. And this, but this is, this is so classic and I'm not judging, but I'm calling you out. If you do this, just calling you out for you, for you to maybe just again, look internally because it might bring you more peace.

00:55:02.03
Aaron
Let's do it.

00:55:04.46
Aaron
Create a series of music.

00:55:08.40
Aaron
Wait, are you calling me out?

00:55:10.02
Seth Macey
No, people who say,

00:55:10.78
Aaron
Oh, I was ready to fight. oh

00:55:16.58
Seth Macey
Oh, this is for me. I do this entirely for me. No, you don't. Nobody listening to this, you, me, does this entirely 100% for themselves.

00:55:38.00
Seth Macey
If they share it on social media. If they send it in a text to their mom.

00:55:46.88
Seth Macey
if they hang it in a gallery, if it was entirely for you, there would never be the urge for it to see the light of day in the physical or digital world.

00:55:51.12
Aaron
Yeah.

00:56:04.42
Aaron
Yeah, I suppose that is true.

00:56:04.82
Seth Macey
I'm not, it has to be because even if I don't post this on Instagram and I send it to my mom,

00:56:07.73
Aaron
i Yeah, it has to be. Yeah.

00:56:15.03
Aaron
Yeah.

00:56:16.56
Seth Macey
I've partially made this to get a reaction out of her, to connect with her to whatever,

00:56:23.89
Aaron
Yeah.

00:56:25.74
Seth Macey
even if it's

00:56:26.26
Aaron
Yeah.

00:56:28.68
Aaron
Sure, sure, sure. But there's, there's, I think the line is where you go, your mom goes like, I don't really like this. And now you change it for her versus you going like, no, I, this is, this is how I did it.

00:56:40.44
Aaron
This is what I like. You know, your, your audience, your audience doesn't like a real or a bombs. And now you start changing your format. You start changing your time. You start changing.

00:56:50.88
Aaron
Oh, this really is a 22nd concept, but I got to bring it down to 14.

00:56:56.63
Seth Macey
But I'm still doing it for me though. That's what I'm getting at.

00:56:59.36
Aaron
No.

00:56:59.58
Seth Macey
like Call it for what it is.

00:56:59.61
Aaron
Yeah.

00:57:02.20
Aaron
yeah

00:57:02.21
Seth Macey
I feel like the more you can be honest with yourself, like yeah I think you said it, we lie to ourselves. And I don't think that, I feel like that's not a good thing because it doesn't serve us well in so many other areas of our life.

00:57:07.44
Aaron
Hmm.

00:57:13.43
Seth Macey
And it's an opportunity, a very small and risk-free one for us to be honest with ourselves. There's no danger saying, Hey, you know, I like this, but I'm also, I've made this cause I want other people to like it too.

00:57:28.46
Aaron
Right.

00:57:28.80
Seth Macey
There's nothing wrong with that.

00:57:31.64
Aaron
Yeah.

00:57:32.40
Seth Macey
And what a great opportunity for you to just be honest. I feel again, like it can be detrimental to, to say, I just do this all for me.

00:57:44.71
Seth Macey
You know, I don't care what anyone thinks. And then turning around and being like, Oh, I got like 400 plays. This was my best work. it's like Well, which is it? Is it for you or is it not?

00:57:53.94
Aaron
Yeah. Right.

00:57:55.10
Seth Macey
Which is it?

00:57:55.37
Aaron
Right. Right.

00:57:57.11
Seth Macey
you're creating As you would say, you're creating an unnecessary piece of suffering within yourself when you're not honest with your intention.

00:58:02.06
Aaron
Yeah.

00:58:05.69
Seth Macey
And that is

00:58:05.72
Aaron
Yeah. I think you can, you can share, you can share your work and, and if it to the level, even though you can't possibly, if like you said, a hundred percent for you, you're probably have no desire to really share it. So there's a level though, where it reaches where you you do it for you. And there, there would be zero.

00:58:30.30
Aaron
emotional response to anyone, even if it got a 10 hundred bajillion views, you'd be like, Oh, that's cool. Or one view, you'd be like, Oh, that's cool. Your, your emotional response to it would be less influenced, I feel like by the external validation of it. If you're like, I, this was a personal piece to me. I did it. I wanted to share it. I want it on my portfolio. I don't, I don't effing care if people like it or not.

00:59:07.01
Seth Macey
Perhaps your level of emotional despair when something bombs is correlated to how much as a ratio you made it for yourself versus other people.

00:59:18.72
Aaron
Yeah, that's fair. I like that.

00:59:22.09
Seth Macey
Right? Like if I post something that bombs and it doesn't bother me, it might be fair to say that I did make that entirely for me. Maybe it's not the best piece of content that's structured for engagement or attention on social media, but I still made it for me.

00:59:34.27
Aaron
no

00:59:35.65
Seth Macey
If it wrecks my day, perhaps, perhaps there was a lot of weight put into the response, which then moves me off center.

00:59:41.68
Aaron
Right. right

00:59:48.28
Aaron
Right. And then steers your art.

00:59:54.01
Seth Macey
Steers your art, steers your day, steers your relationship.

00:59:57.39
Aaron
Which by definition I feel like should be very personal. You know, and and what you're doing. that's That's the good stuff at least. Like something, it's it's really easy to just copy.

01:00:11.52
Aaron
How many copies of the Mona Lisa are there?

01:00:14.35
Seth Macey
I don't know.

01:00:14.46
Aaron
but Probably.

01:00:14.63
Seth Macey
Are there a lot?

01:00:16.98
Aaron
People practicing doing it. Trying to master the technique.

01:00:20.91
Seth Macey
Hmm.

01:00:21.18
Aaron
I assume. But there's there's one, there's one Mona Lisa as far as I know.

01:00:29.75
Aaron
Duo Lisa.

01:00:33.72
Aaron
That's a mono joke.

01:00:35.39
Seth Macey
Yeah, for all the audio nerds, the 1% maybe got that.

01:00:38.01
Aaron
I had something else I was gonna say, and I'm not sure that I'm gonna recall it.

01:00:45.02
Seth Macey
Hmm. At what juncture did it pop into your brain?

01:00:48.60
Aaron
You know, it was earlier on, ah but it, Oh, I know it. I know what it was.

01:00:54.84
Seth Macey
Here it is. Are we going to wrap up with this?

01:00:58.00
Aaron
Sure. and This is again, an observation.

01:01:00.71
Seth Macey
Okay.

01:01:01.66
Aaron
I think I've, I've been on social media for five years. That was some sex. Uh, I've never, so I've seen people go hard.

01:01:13.82
Aaron
I've seen people whoa, like they are 20 stories a day. Reels photographs. Really engaged where you're like, this is a full-time job. This is this person is going at it and for long periods of time months even They see great growth there. It's working I've yet to see people last Anywhere close to a year or more at that clip which tells me that

01:01:48.60
Aaron
It's not sustainable. It's probably not good for you. It's probably come to a point where like you could not maintain that level because if you tick down the Seth path, it wasn't really creating love, connection, any of those real meaning things that align with who you are.

01:02:15.79
Seth Macey
that align with who you are. Right.

01:02:21.89
Aaron
So.

01:02:22.61
Seth Macey
That's fair.

01:02:24.13
Aaron
Just the thought.

01:02:25.51
Seth Macey
Yeah. Do that exercise folks. Spend a day being really annoying to yourself and just why, why, why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? And you'll learn more than you could ever learn about yourself.

01:02:39.55
Aaron
Yeah, I love it.

01:02:40.35
Seth Macey
So until next time.

01:02:42.61
Aaron
See you.