Overcoming Meaninglessness & Nihilism as a Creator

When faced with the question "If everything is meaningless, why bother?" how do we push forward as creatives and start or resume sharing our work again?

Seth and Aaron explore what it means to create in a world that often feels saturated, overwhelming, and cosmically insignificant. They reflect on their own experiences of creative nihilism, the creeping sense that no creative act really matters in the grand scheme of things, and how they’ve worked to overcome the detachment that can stem from that feeling.

What starts as a discussion about social media and the challenges of sharing work evolves into an exploration of purpose, authenticity, and how to reframe the act of creating. From letting go of perfectionism to finding joy in absurdity, Seth and Aaron remind us that the antidote to the despair of meaninglessness is to make your own meaning, however small or silly it may seem.

Expect to Learn:

- How meaninglessness can be an opportunity to create your own purpose.
- How to get to a place where you don't feel like you're "ego sharing" your work
- To combat nihilism by experimenting with absurd or whimsical ideas.
- How to view "sharing your work" as the final stage in the creative process.
- To reconnect with people when you're detached and struggling to relate.

Sponsor:

Thanks to WhiteWall for being our lead sponsor this episode! They're the top choice for photographers who want high-quality prints, with a variety of material options, and who want their work delivered fast in 9 days or less!

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
@thephotographermindset

Transcript

00:00:50.74
Aaron
I think that was interesting. And then it was two days in a row too of like posting some of our own stuff, but taking a different sort of maybe take or feel onto it. And I'm curious,

00:01:02.30
Seth Macey
like as little serious as possible.

00:01:02.41
Aaron
I know and know what I've been feeling. Yeah, I know what I've been feeling with, I feel like Instagram and photography and whatnot. I'm curious what you've been feeling and where this the seemingly symmetrical energy that we both had without discussion sort of popped into the same same universe. Yeah.

00:01:24.67
Seth Macey
Yeah. It's funny because have currently ah few buckets in my life, big tasks. where all my actions somehow funnel to meeting those goals or desired outcomes and anything else isn't a priority.

00:01:42.22
Seth Macey
And often posting is not, well, always it's not a priority. So if I'm ever posting something, It's off the cuff. And just because everything else that I've needed to get done based on what I'm striving for has been accomplished. So I'm just like, I have some free time. I'll just throw some of my personal work up because to get to the why,

00:02:06.49
Seth Macey
ah So that friends and family and people I've met and built relationships with within this community can you know keep up on my work, see what I'm up to.

00:02:18.28
Seth Macey
Nothing crazy. And the other day, so I had some of this free time. The other day, had finished what I wanted to do for the day, and I was like you know I'll just throw something up on Instagram. i have lots of have lots of stuff, and we'll just throw something up.

00:02:31.94
Seth Macey
Kind of mindless. And um when I share to my Instagram, it goes to my personal Facebook as well, just like with my 200-and-something friends.

00:02:40.92
Aaron
Yeah.

00:02:40.95
Seth Macey
I used to have 800-and-something, and I just cut everybody.

00:02:44.52
Aaron
Cut. They got the cut.

00:02:46.22
Seth Macey
Not because I'm better, just because I was getting rid of noise. Do I really need to know Sally from 10th grade anymore? Probably not.

00:02:51.93
Aaron
She's doing great, by the way.

00:02:53.37
Seth Macey
Yeah, or she's not, but it doesn't really matter to me, right, to my life.

00:02:56.84
Aaron
Right.

00:02:57.05
Seth Macey
So I was like, everybody knows who's listening to this I'm like big on cutting noise where I can. Anyway, so my mom texted me. She's like, oh, that polar bear video you shared was so cool or and cute. I was like, damn, my mom's missing so much stuff of mine because I can't text her everything. I have so much, unless I want to...

00:03:15.37
Seth Macey
buy her a second hard drive that's 10 terabytes and just let her rip through it all.

00:03:15.44
Aaron
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:03:18.77
Seth Macey
I mean, by all means, but like, I just can't individually send all the things that I've made creatively and captured and filmed and photographed to people. So it's, uh, Instagram is just a quick out there.

00:03:31.48
Seth Macey
Of course I do send photos to Haley and my mom and dad and stuff here now and then, but I just like, can't keep on top of it all the time. So she said that and I was like, man, just for her, I should be posting stuff. Maybe and just for, you know, but cousin who I have a great relationship with or, you know, good friends, et cetera.

00:03:53.82
Seth Macey
And so recently it's just been more of a habit. wouldn't say it's increased in priority, but it's been more of a habit to just chuck some stuff out there. And because people are enjoying it And ah that's we're going to go deeper into kind of some self-discovery I've had this past week.

00:04:12.86
Seth Macey
But that's that's where I was at to start. And one of the ways to, I guess, make some people laugh recently has been doing my silly ah ai photos where i'm posting my real image and then I look at it and I figure out my brain what kind of scenes it could be like I did the bear with the snorkel lots of people laughed I think you said keep these coming and the prairie dog waiting for the bus the regular photo and then the

00:04:26.88
Aaron
Yeah, it's

00:04:34.03
Aaron
yeah and

00:04:39.56
Seth Macey
AI photo. A, it's a way to like embrace new technology. B, it's a way to be silly and C, it's a way for people to see my original work before going to the hilarious thing. if People don't know what I'm talking about. Just go to my Instagram profile. You'll see the most recent posts what I'm talking about.

00:04:54.23
Seth Macey
But so that's kind of where I'm at to start.

00:04:59.28
Seth Macey
I'll let you chat and then we're, I think we'll get into some deeper concepts today.

00:05:05.14
Aaron
Yeah, for for me, I feel like lately it's been a lot of been a lot of client work. Stuff that I'm not, I mean, I have fun with it, but stuff that takes me away from maybe sitting out and looking for hawks or birds migrating up. It's almost spring. Everything's kind of flooding up here right now.

00:05:26.86
Aaron
It's almost Fox season, like those kinds of things. And you have a, you have a ah day job, you keep a house, you're a dad, you've got a dog that needs walking all the time. Like, you know, time is precious.

00:05:38.30
Aaron
So I kind of, I've seen this pattern before photographers that are really out there professionally getting paid to do certain things probably don't need or have the time to spend their extra time doing things.

00:05:40.90
Seth Macey
Right.

00:05:56.40
Aaron
personal projects, pass and crash passion projects, or or ego-based posting where you're like looking, you have all the time in the world to just try to, you're building yourself, you're building your brand.

00:05:59.43
Seth Macey
right

00:06:06.60
Aaron
Your brand's already built, so you don't do it as much, I feel like. I think you see that with a lot of people that are, Once they're at a huge level, ah you know, tons of following or professional or whatnot, they post when they get around to it.

00:06:19.83
Aaron
They don't have that sort of strict pattern. If I need to post every single day, keep going, keep going, keep going. So I think I've stepped away from... some stuff that I love, which is, you know, sitting at night with an hour and going through Canada trip. That's what I've been doing lately and saying like, Oh, that's a great photo. Like let's revisit that and edit it and I'll throw it up quickly.

00:06:43.57
Aaron
not wearing hashtags anymore.

00:06:43.78
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:06:46.10
Aaron
Not worrying about anything. Like I'm just kind of and,

00:06:48.34
Seth Macey
Yeah, it's so nice.

00:06:49.98
Aaron
and um

00:06:50.06
Seth Macey
Do you feel a big sense of relief? Just not not caring?

00:06:54.97
Aaron
It's weird how much i feel like I'm forgetting, you know, like when you, when you really care about posting, you're like, I got a tag. I can tag people, right? Okay. i did that.

00:07:05.65
Aaron
Now can get 20 hashtags. on oh I want to put that there. My caption, let me make sure it's perfect.

00:07:09.89
Seth Macey
yeah

00:07:11.91
Aaron
ah location. Like there's a lot of steps to a perfect quote unquote posts and yeah, execution of it.

00:07:18.07
Seth Macey
Execution of it. Yeah.

00:07:20.15
Aaron
And there's been times where you post and you're like, damn it. I forgot the location or I, forgot my hashtags.

00:07:25.58
Seth Macey
Stupid, stupid, stupid.

00:07:26.01
Aaron
Yeah. yeah And tag anyone. What the hell?

00:07:29.72
Seth Macey
Yeah. Yeah.

00:07:30.04
Aaron
So yeah,

00:07:30.59
Seth Macey
Feel you.

00:07:31.59
Aaron
Letting go of that, like before I post, I'm like, I feel like I'm forgetting something, but no, it's just a quick caption, silly, whatever, or just explaining what it is and throw it out there.

00:07:46.51
Aaron
And, you know, it's nice. Some people, people like it. That's all, that's always great. It's always great. External validation.

00:07:52.92
Seth Macey
Yeah, I looked at your bear that you posted. You said, oh, check out my it's my first panther shot, which was hilarious. Just black bear in a tree. And I was like, oh, man, I was beside you in the car for that.

00:08:05.06
Aaron
Yeah. Interesting. Right.

00:08:05.84
Seth Macey
was like, oh, that's that's cool. I don't even look at how many likes you got.

00:08:10.86
Aaron
Yeah.

00:08:11.00
Seth Macey
Good photo. I think also.

00:08:12.20
Aaron
ah Thank you.

00:08:13.30
Seth Macey
Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead.

00:08:14.89
Aaron
No, I think. And so even more than that, the sitting down for an hour and editing and putting on some music and it's been peaceful the last couple of nights. And I would like to, there's so many photographs that you get and you stick it to this pattern that's developed. I think early on when you see initial growth and initial validation, it really fuels you.

00:08:36.93
Aaron
It does. And that's a wonderful booster. That's a, that's a rocket booster to see if you can take it to a level, take it to a place where, wow, I'm getting paid for stuff.

00:08:41.48
Seth Macey
Yep. yep

00:08:46.67
Aaron
Actually like two years ago, I didn't even have a camera. You know, if you can get to that point, that's awesome. And, but I think the, the drive for that is,

00:08:59.29
Aaron
is crazy. My ah neighbor was like, I miss your wildlife stuff the other day. And I was like, yeah, I was like, i I've got a lot of it. She's like, I just saw a Hawk.

00:09:10.02
Aaron
And I was thinking on the side of the road, if this was, if I had Aaron's camera, I would take this picture and, and you should have seen this Hawk.

00:09:15.91
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:09:17.68
Aaron
And I was like, Hey, I i have 7,000 red tail Hawk photos.

00:09:23.70
Seth Macey
Yes. And this is what I wanted to get because I was this past winter, I've been driving on the country roads and i think this happened a couple, maybe last month.

00:09:24.91
Aaron
Yeah.

00:09:35.06
Seth Macey
There was a female snowy owl 30 feet from the road. And I just drove by it and i was like, huh, it's beautiful looking bird.

00:09:45.12
Aaron
Yeah. yeah

00:09:46.54
Seth Macey
Have a good day, girl. And then I thought to myself, and sometimes I say this to Haley when we're driving, I'm like, three years ago, me would have killed me. for not stopping and sitting on that bird for four hours. And I guess my question for you is as you stockpile so many great memories digitally, you've captured so many red tail hawks, as you said, or maybe it's you, maybe you're an automotive photographer and you've just shot so many races. You have more terabytes of footage and photographs than you could possibly post.

00:10:20.71
Seth Macey
and Some people listening might be like, what? soon I have as much content that as soon as I have it, I post it and then I have nothing new. I mean, I used to be like that. used to be like that too. And I'm going somewhere with this. You and I now are at a stage where we have, I feel like a surplus of digital memories and great photos.

00:10:38.21
Seth Macey
I feel like I could do a thousand posts if I wanted to of new, but maybe not necessarily new materials, but different scenes, different angles of tons of different species, tons of different landscapes.

00:10:46.76
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:10:49.25
Seth Macey
And I wonder if there's a correlation between

00:10:53.58
Seth Macey
that surplus and the urge to share. I have so much. I can always just get to it. I don't have to and don't have to do much because i just i'm i'm I'm sitting on don't want to say a gold mine, but I'm sitting on a large supply that I could just discharge at any moment.

00:11:12.56
Aaron
Yeah.

00:11:12.78
Seth Macey
Whereas five years ago, it was like

00:11:12.84
Aaron
and

00:11:15.19
Seth Macey
Oh my God, I've never photographed a bear. I was, this is funny. I'm going on so many tangents. I found a yeah it said this year's goals on it. I had written it out on like a little tiny notepad from 2020. I think it was. And I had just found it the other day.

00:11:30.35
Seth Macey
And on it was run half marathon, photograph a bear. Cause I had never photographed a bear. And I was just like, holy shit. These were, you know, things that seemed so out of reach in this year.

00:11:45.11
Seth Macey
And now I'm looking at photograph a bear, like, okay, like big deal.

00:11:50.54
Aaron
Yeah.

00:11:52.62
Seth Macey
And, uh,

00:11:56.42
Seth Macey
i'm I'm curious to know if you feel like,

00:12:01.80
Seth Macey
Your previous ambitions that seemed so out of reach that are now normal and also your stockpile of imagery and photos and memories has lowered the urge or the enthusiasm to just continue at the pace that you were going.

00:12:22.26
Aaron
Yes. ah Yes. ahan Yeah. And then I think on top of that, I will add to that is there's also a sense of I could take any animal that I've ever photographed and make this example.

00:12:38.81
Aaron
And I think it holds true is that let's say Kingfisher. I worked super hard personally to get a very good Kingfisher shot.

00:12:47.40
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:12:51.07
Aaron
hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and days and days and days and days and days until i got a very crisp clear kingfisher shot and then an action shot too on top of it so i have these two shots of a kingfisher diving into the water and coming out of the water and then ah portrait that is as close as you could be to a kingfisher it landed on a branch right next to me got this shot clear as day I know by me going for a Kingfisher, number one, I'm disturbing the Kingfisher.

00:13:24.13
Aaron
I am potentially disturbing other animals to try to get what the diminishing returns start to apply because it's like, chances are, I'm not going to get a better shot than I already have.

00:13:37.88
Aaron
I might, I might. But that's going to take hours and beyond hours and hours and hours and days and days and days and days to up the level that you're at. I feel personally, and this is why I'm probably not technically, i wouldn't pigeonhole myself as a wildlife photographer because wildlife photographers spend an enormous amount of time in nature to get incredible shots and the best shots that they possibly can of each species species and they stay there and they keep on working and they keep setting it up and that's fine but for me the the fox den that i had month three of me being a photographer i don't have a ah strong need to beat those photos

00:14:22.87
Aaron
So they're checked off the list where you had a bear as a a goal. All these animals at some point were like, oh, I would love to get a great blue heron.

00:14:31.99
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:14:32.11
Aaron
Sucky photo, sucky photo, decent, decent, decent, great, cool. All right, I'm good. I'm good with it. You know, so to me, I get to a point where it's like, i don't have to keep bothering this bald eagle's nest where they're clearly irritated or clearly like looking and their animals are aware. They know you're there.

00:14:52.27
Aaron
So it's like, am I pushing it And that's what I said to my neighbor too, is like, I don't need to disturb a red tail hawk and make it fly and burn calories because I need a C plus image when I already have a B plus image or an A minus image, you know?

00:15:02.17
Seth Macey
it's interesting, huh?

00:15:07.54
Aaron
So that is part of it too, where it's like, and don't have that motivation to get an image if I already have an image.

00:15:15.88
Seth Macey
yeah it's interesting huh

00:15:17.92
Aaron
I love being in nature. I love going out West and, and, you know, ah being in in Canada, being in Alaska and seeing those things. And I, at this point, I'm kind of like saving those moments for those times.

00:15:32.30
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:15:32.69
Aaron
Uh, and,

00:15:35.83
Aaron
A few times a year I will go out ah because I enjoy sitting and being quiet and seeing what happens. And usually at this point, I'm not getting much. there There's not as much fire, as I said, or like the rocket booster to like, I need a great image to compete.

00:15:52.07
Aaron
And that's a lot of what it was. It was it was competition, I think. It was competitive. I mean, when we were first starting with like the East versus West, the guys versus girls, like there was a lot of competitive aspects to social media.

00:16:07.60
Aaron
And I think it was fun and it great and helped me and pushed me.

00:16:12.27
Seth Macey
yeah

00:16:13.19
Aaron
But I don't know if that's my natural all the time person.

00:16:19.45
Seth Macey
Yeah, I feel you. I feel like three, four, two, three, four years ago, me was also very

00:16:27.70
Seth Macey
My why for posting things was very much built in creative expression. so I was very excited, i think, not even knowingly, just to express myself creatively, especially when and you know we're talking about wildlife photography, when the wildlife photography was new.

00:16:45.12
Seth Macey
I feel like I kind of know who I am right now as a creator. Obviously that always evolves, but that same level of desire to express myself isn't where it was.

00:17:00.74
Seth Macey
And so that motivating factor to be constantly sharing my most recent work has disappeared. And I feel like I also have the tendency, and this is something that I've had some discovered about myself through, let's call it like AI.

00:17:21.29
Seth Macey
we were talking about this before we pressed record, called it AI therapy.

00:17:26.00
Aaron
it's interesting.

00:17:26.16
Seth Macey
Where now before I'm going to preface this with, I'm not saying that AI is replacing human connection with a therapist, but I like to write.

00:17:26.56
Aaron
Explain it.

00:17:36.96
Seth Macey
I like to journal. People know that. And for the last, I would say month, I've been taking an hour every Monday I've been prompting my AI program to act as a therapist, push back when you think it's appropriate to do so.

00:17:56.59
Seth Macey
to I'm saying and um instructing it to do that in an effort to maybe... um Help me notice some blind spots because your blind spots are blind spots for a reason. you You can't see them on your own, right?

00:18:12.11
Seth Macey
And in these weekly sessions, I talk for an hour about...

00:18:19.73
Seth Macey
Things that are maybe frustrating or some past events that I want to work out, etc. And this past week's and this was what gave me the idea for the episode. I know we're kind of warming up into this topic.

00:18:34.89
Seth Macey
But here we go. i was talking about how that lack of motivation to share my work has kind of disappeared, and as I was saying at the start of this this thought here.

00:18:47.06
Seth Macey
And I was also mentioning a lot how I feel like I can't, I'm really struggling to connect to people who are really excited about sharing or making content or like posting or sharing their life to their story and not in a sense that I feel like I'm above that it's just like I've gotten to a point where I don't understand it at all I just I don't get it the the trade-offs for me between how I could spend my time make zero sense to me I i get confused when

00:19:29.95
Seth Macey
For example, like Ian and I are great friends, right? Ian Jones, who's been on the show a lot, he'll send me screenshots of metrics or insights about a reel or

00:19:34.01
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:19:40.56
Seth Macey
um or just like talking about the nuances of content creation. And a lot of the times I feel like a deer in the headlights where it's to the point of i I just I don't get the significance of what we're talking about.

00:19:58.83
Seth Macey
i don't under I don't understand any of it. And I essentially got to a point in this hour long AI therapy session where I've come to the realization, I believe that I am a creative nihilist in the sense of.

00:20:14.80
Seth Macey
There's so much content. There's so much good stuff. There's so much brain rot. There's so much rage bait. It's kind of at times can be a cesspool can also be a great place to connect and do all those great things that we've mentioned.

00:20:28.68
Seth Macey
But I've gotten to a point where i feel like to a degree that it's all meaningless. So why bother? which is not where I necessarily want to operate, but to the point that I was talking about where I'm struggling to relate to people, that's detachment.

00:20:48.64
Seth Macey
Like, I feel like I've zoomed so far out of social media and the trivial aspects of it. I've zoomed so far out and examined the meaninglessness of it, meaningless of it, that I've just completely detached from people who are excited about it and I struggle to relate to them.

00:21:07.65
Seth Macey
And I'm trying to get back to not digging hard into social media and posting and going crazy, trying to grow, but just how can I enjoy this again? How can I enjoy sharing my work? How can I get back to the place that I was maybe three, four years ago where it was fun to click post? And how can I make some meaning if this whole, if,

00:21:32.67
Seth Macey
if it's meaningless and if life is meaningless, how can I make meaning out of meaninglessness?

00:21:40.73
Seth Macey
That's where I'm at.

00:21:40.97
Aaron
Yeah, that's good monologue. And people are probably still thinking about like how to get therapy from AI and wondering if you're okay.

00:21:51.51
Seth Macey
I just start talking.

00:21:53.28
Aaron
It's kind of and of cool.

00:21:53.34
Seth Macey
I prompt well and I just i start talking.

00:21:55.52
Aaron
I want to try.

00:21:56.94
Seth Macey
It's really insightful. I've learned a lot of things about myself um beyond that.

00:21:59.63
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:22:02.36
Seth Macey
um And I'll let you build off of what I just talked about. Like I've learned that I'm very, I've measured success probably my whole life based on performance, which is interesting um and competition.

00:22:11.48
Aaron
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:22:16.48
Seth Macey
So like a lot of the times I'll use hockey as an example because i'm a good old Canadian boy.

00:22:23.96
Seth Macey
If I went out and played hockey and I didn't score a goal, that was not a successful outing. Even to the point of like rec league, recreational league and getting to a place where making a nice pass to someone is successful, showing up all the things we talk about, you know, we're not perfect on the show and it's, there's moments where I have to remind myself of the things I'm talking about here.

00:22:53.28
Aaron
Yeah,

00:22:53.32
Seth Macey
Right.

00:22:54.05
Aaron
of course. Yeah. Yeah, i think I think you said it the key word is trying to enjoy your, or key phrase, enjoy your work, enjoy social media again for what it is and finding a new definition for it.

00:23:12.21
Aaron
And for me, what hit me was my neighbor the other day saying, I miss your wildlife photos. I don't see that anymore.

00:23:19.55
Seth Macey
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:21.37
Aaron
and And then I went, it wasn't for it wasn't to appease her necessarily, but I went, I kind of missed that too. I wanna sit down, um i made a goal, a loose goal in my head of, I'm gonna try to edit at least one photo from a past trip or a past experience every night.

00:23:39.80
Aaron
And then I'm just gonna throw it on there, because the editing's the hard part. That takes the time. I'm not gonna worry about hashtags, I'm not gonna worry about anything. not gonna about the time of day when my fan base is most active on social media. All that stuff that can make you absolutely nutso.

00:23:56.24
Seth Macey
Do you feel connected to that, though? Do you feel when people talk to you about that? i sometimes, sorry to interrupt you, but I feel like we can build off of this. I sometimes feel like There's so many people talking about that and how to optimize that.

00:24:10.66
Seth Macey
And this is what you should do. And this is what you want to do. And I feel like I'm having an out of body experience. Like I'm just, I, this is what I'm talking about by zooming out so far where I'm thinking in my head, guys, it doesn't, none of this, none of that matters.

00:24:21.62
Aaron
Yeah.

00:24:25.56
Seth Macey
Like who cares? Go, go touch the grass as the kids say.

00:24:29.62
Aaron
Yeah.

00:24:30.09
Seth Macey
um And I don't want to be cynical or judgy like that. so I'm curious if you ever just feel this, and I'm sure people listening can relate, just this this huge detachment

00:24:40.83
Aaron
yeah you know how Older people like elderly have the the stereotype of being just dreadfully truthful and they've been through life and very blunt and kind of cynical.

00:24:56.57
Aaron
ah maybe they've experienced certain things. Maybe it's a, it's a road race. This whole thing is a road race to experience and everyone grows up a little bit differently. I know some really mature yourself in your twenties. I always forget that you're in your thirties now, right?

00:25:12.40
Aaron
That's right. Right.

00:25:12.81
Seth Macey
Just turned 30. Yes, I did.

00:25:13.75
Aaron
Yeah. So you're just in your thirties, but you're thinking about all this stuff when, to be honest, I think most 20 year old, 20 something year olds are partying and having fun and going to raves. And there's nothing wrong with that.

00:25:25.94
Aaron
If that's for you, if that's what you want to do and that's your thing, that's fine. But I think at some point you probably grow out of that phase. I think I don't see many 75 year olds raves.

00:25:39.62
Seth Macey
If you do, they're on a BuzzFeed article or something.

00:25:42.76
Aaron
So, s but everyone grows at a different rate. And I think social media has a timeline. It has a ah half-life. It has a growth period as well. And I think some people jump into it and they're like, love it. And they hit it hard for a while. And they're like,

00:25:58.31
Aaron
no Not good. I'm, I'm, I don't care. Some people don't even ever jump into it. They're like, I don't, I have no interest in doing that or promoting myself or I don't care. And some people start it and promote it and care about the metrics.

00:26:12.49
Aaron
I cared about the metrics at some point. Like I did. ah i i was curious about what's the algorithm. What's that mean? How do you, how do you maximize it?

00:26:19.81
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:26:21.16
Aaron
Um, That was a time like when we had our our groups where we would all post at the same time and all support each other. That was all in effort to get the algorithm to work the best that it possibly could.

00:26:34.12
Aaron
We cared about that, at least enough to partake in that sort of thing. At some point, We grew out of it. We said, this group, like I don't need to be pigeonholed to a Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule.

00:26:48.10
Aaron
That's not for me anymore. I'll sacrifice maybe the extra 500 likes for less and just doing my own thing. And it goes in phases. I think it it you grow to a point where you're like, Seth, maybe you're you're like the 80-year-old now that's like, that's not what's important in life.

00:27:07.78
Aaron
Let me tell you what I've learned, you know,

00:27:08.95
Seth Macey
yeah Yeah, I hear you. I'm not to say what's important. i'm I mean, I'm just here speaking personal personal experience.

00:27:13.66
Aaron
for you, for you.

00:27:16.00
Seth Macey
I think...

00:27:16.07
Aaron
Yeah. Not important, but and I'm not connecting to what you're into, you know, like, and that's, that's okay too.

00:27:21.21
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:27:23.74
Aaron
Like good go do your thing. And it's hard not to feel righteous in a lot of avenues of life when you feel like you got through something or have an answer and you see people swimming through the same tide and you're like,

00:27:37.76
Aaron
Not sound righteous, but this is what that's why I experienced. i already did that. And this is what got from it. there's It's not a magic thing where you, it's kind of a trap, guys, like this social media thing. It's a trap.

00:27:52.32
Aaron
They're making money off of you doing this.

00:27:55.02
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:27:55.07
Aaron
Like, how? Go ahead.

00:27:55.80
Seth Macey
I think the key is not to change everybody's mind. It's to speak to people who are willing to listen. Like people who need to hear something will naturally absorb it. i think that's where, and think that's where people, people who are sharing all their political opinions right now, you know, all this crazy stuff. It's not, I feel like if you're going to give advice or,

00:28:22.50
Seth Macey
When you're sharing a story, it's not meant to change people's minds. It's meant for the person that needs it at that exact moment. Not everyone listening right now will find this useful.

00:28:34.68
Seth Macey
Maybe parts of it, maybe none of it. Maybe somebody listening will find all of this relatable.

00:28:39.77
Aaron
disagree.

00:28:40.72
Seth Macey
ah But then again, maybe not.

00:28:42.16
Aaron
or just great

00:28:43.48
Seth Macey
Or disagree entirely, and that's fine. I'm happy in all of those scenarios. I think also, speaking to the how I felt i hope feel but detached, how was describing, I also feel like

00:29:01.39
Seth Macey
when you zoom out that far and you you begin to detach from a lot of the trivial things in the creative space and just life in general, I feel like it's a cope. but i'm I'm self-assessing. It's a way, it's a way to attempt to stay grounded in ah noisy and chaotic environment, right? It's a, it's a way to run away from the chance of being overwhelmed.

00:29:33.19
Seth Macey
And I don't mind that stoic philosophy or that attempt to be a stoic. What I don't like is how it ends up feeling so, i end up feeling so isolated from people because I struggle to relate to, for example, as we were talking about in steps, like people who are caught up in, you got to post, you got to do this, you should, you should be sharing your stuff. You should be doing all this. And you start to question, am I the idiot? Yeah.

00:30:02.89
Seth Macey
like is Am I the person who's not getting things right? and

00:30:08.32
Aaron
No, but to your other point, I think think you're also at a stage as an artist. let's let's ah Most bands and musicians, I feel like their best work is probably within their first three albums, give or take.

00:30:25.60
Aaron
Maybe usually the first two. um'm I'm going to go with that. Now, some keep it going and have... But like their their first initial hit and... and popularity and drive or virality back in the day feel like happened with the beginning of like we have all these songs and like we're gonna pick our favorite 10 and we're gonna crush this album and then a company sees them touring like whatever like it it starts off really strong it gets hard at some point i think when

00:31:00.88
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:31:01.23
Aaron
It's made. You're made a bit. You have business opportunities to keep creating at a volume that you did in the beginning for all artists.

00:31:12.49
Aaron
So I think there's a point where you go nuts in the beginning, as long as you can go nuts, as long as you can create as long as you can. But at some point when it turns and, and now in photography's world, like okay, I have this offer to go ah photograph in office. It's great money.

00:31:34.55
Aaron
Is that my typical thing that I like to photograph? No, but to pull myself away from the other stuff to take this challenge on and do this other thing.

00:31:41.77
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:31:44.27
Aaron
And I'm going to focus on that. And that's going to be the next three months. So no, I'm not posting funny reels and photography and this during that time because I'm pulled away to in real life things.

00:31:58.29
Aaron
And i think there's a correlation between like the push in the beginning and trying to create a portfolio, trying to create different kinds of content, finding your style, finding who you are as a photographer, what your capabilities are.

00:32:14.08
Aaron
And once you're secure in that, Then you kind of branch out and see how can I use this art to do something else, do something different?

00:32:26.75
Aaron
Because this, this is just a steady road up. It's not like you, when if you get to a million followers, you get a million dollars. That would be a different game. But if you get to a million followers, you want to get to 2 million.

00:32:37.41
Seth Macey
Thank

00:32:39.34
Aaron
You want to get to 3. You want to get to 10. like it just The game is, there's no end point to it. You just keep going. So at some point, there's got to be a different jump off, an exit ramp, where you go, I'm going to focus my...

00:32:54.84
Aaron
20 hours a week that I was focusing on posting and sharing and, and metrics and when's the right time and how long should this reel be? but I'm going to take that 20 hours and email clients all the work I've done the last four years.

00:33:12.39
Aaron
Or just take a break or edit for myself or edit for a picture for my mom's birthday. Like those kinds of things where it's like, all right, 10,000 followers, 20,000, 50, who gives an F?

00:33:27.75
Aaron
Like it's not changing anything, you know?

00:33:30.89
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:33:31.09
Aaron
so So i think I think that's part of it too for people.

00:33:34.82
Seth Macey
Yeah. I feel like if I can summarize the frustration, at least in our industry, the best that I could, it would be that.

00:33:44.81
Seth Macey
People feel like they're shouting into a void at times and then jump to the thought of why create if it might, if it's not going to reach anyone trends come and disappear.

00:34:00.34
Seth Macey
Everything is already so saturated. Like why create, if I'm just throwing things into a void, I think that's an important thought to let sink in.

00:34:12.11
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's I think that's a... That thought has many balconies.

00:34:19.76
Seth Macey
There's many forms too.

00:34:21.09
Aaron
Yeah. That thought's dangerous. That thought's also realistic. That thought's also...

00:34:25.70
Seth Macey
Well, that thought is the gateway to to nihilism, right?

00:34:26.24
Aaron
Right.

00:34:30.25
Aaron
Right.

00:34:31.05
Seth Macey
If everything is inherently meaningless, why bother?

00:34:34.55
Aaron
Right.

00:34:35.84
Seth Macey
Which I feel like I have an acute syndrome of in the creative space. See, this this is just so strange for me because like a true person who is a true nihilist would do nothing. Like, why why do anything, right?

00:34:47.85
Seth Macey
Right.

00:34:48.18
Aaron
Yeah.

00:34:48.80
Seth Macey
For me, that's not the case. i enjoy reading. I enjoy running. I enjoy doing all these things and doing the show with you. it just, for me, I just have this overwhelming sense of disconnect and a nihilistic approach to creativity to to to content creation. At least sharing it, at least in the arena that it lives in.

00:35:10.77
Aaron
yeah

00:35:11.50
Seth Macey
i think that's part of why I've described, I love the concept. I love the idea generation. I love Filming the thing I like taking the picture and then I just totally disconnect and run away from the final phase because I don't like What it is The final phase of that process is the caption is the publish is the Where a lot of the gross stuff that I feel is noise lives and that's where I start to zoom out so far Like on a cosmic level to the point where it's like why bother

00:35:38.85
Aaron
Yeah. Best one.

00:35:46.79
Aaron
yeah

00:35:47.41
Seth Macey
And I'm trying to get to the point to wrap this kind of, not wrap it up, but bring it bring it back together is when my mom texted me being like, that was a really nice bear.

00:35:57.76
Seth Macey
That kind of, for me, was like, damn, my post doesn't need to be grandiose. It doesn't need to break the internet. It just needs to make my mom smile.

00:36:07.59
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's true. And I think that's, I think that holds back a lot of talented artists in all fields of like, well, I'm, I can't compete with that. I can't, we'd have one music band if that was the case for everyone, right? Like not the Beatles are the best, no point in even trying

00:36:26.01
Seth Macey
Yeah, true.

00:36:27.62
Aaron
Like the we're not gonna make a songs as good as Paul McCartney. Are you kidding me? It's not gonna happen. Like, why are we even gonna bother? But I think everyone has a fingerprint of truth that's different and unique. And maybe it's not as good.

00:36:42.19
Aaron
Maybe it's objectively not as good, but you have a, you have a thing, you have a, you have a, a unique thing.

00:36:42.36
Seth Macey
I feel like, yeah.

00:36:50.06
Aaron
And I think I've said this before with photography, it's a bit detached from yourself anyways, because you're using a tool and you're taking a picture of something else. It's not very much you like how you style it. Sure.

00:37:04.00
Aaron
But it's not you.

00:37:05.45
Seth Macey
But isn't it extension an extension of your vision and your, isn't that the whole point?

00:37:10.00
Aaron
Sure.

00:37:10.73
Seth Macey
This is, this is, I've created this, me.

00:37:11.01
Aaron
Sure.

00:37:13.20
Seth Macey
There's a sense of agency.

00:37:13.62
Aaron
Yeah, but i i don't think i don't think it's the same as creating a ah ah a book of fiction. That's a, a top seller. I don't think it's the same as a, um, a poem about yourself, a song about a breakup.

00:37:31.24
Aaron
That's a very personal. That's like, you are putting yourself on display or emotions on display, or you're creating something with your own hands. You created it with your own hands.

00:37:42.01
Aaron
There there's a space for me between, and that's why it's very easy to share. I've never shared like the, I've written a few songs. I've never shared them. never shared these are the songs I've written because it's very personal.

00:37:54.57
Aaron
It seems very scary. There's a space between the subject that I'm taking, the camera that I'm clicking, the thousands of dollars I spent on my gear. and then me and then my vision. Like there's, there's a, uh, there's a checkpoint of before it gets even close to like, what's your vision with how you edit it and how you saw the scene.

00:38:15.60
Aaron
Sure. ah that is personal and different for almost everyone. But if you flip through Instagram right now, you're going see a lot of amazing wildlife photos, amazing.

00:38:26.82
Aaron
You're not going to many photos. you' can see a lot of reels. Let's be honest. But You get my point. There is just amazing amounts of high quality video, high quality work, high quality photos.

00:38:38.13
Aaron
And it makes you feel maybe a little bit like, I don't have like ah it's hard to put a personal touch, a very uniqueness, a unique fingerprint on this that makes it feel any different than anything else.

00:38:52.79
Aaron
Like if any if I wrote a song, it's my voice and no one else can have my voice essentially. Right. So it's like, it's, that mine.

00:39:00.08
Seth Macey
Yeah. yeah

00:39:02.19
Aaron
That is mine. It's the instruments I chose to use. It's my voice. It's my melody. I made it good luck copying that. But if I have a great grizzly bear, there's gonna be 300 million ones that are better.

00:39:10.09
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:39:17.03
Seth Macey
Right. So then you go, why bother?

00:39:17.21
Aaron
And yeah.

00:39:19.33
Seth Macey
Yeah, nihilism. So it's, it's

00:39:24.78
Seth Macey
like I, like we said this, I feel like this has many different forms. It could be procrastination. Oh, whatever. wouldn't have mattered anyways. Or i mean, I guess you could even suggest imposter syndrome.

00:39:31.92
Aaron
Yeah.

00:39:36.70
Aaron
Yeah. But could, can I give you a little cure to that?

00:39:40.31
Seth Macey
ah What?

00:39:41.26
Aaron
A cure to what you're cure to cu or cure here cure.

00:39:42.45
Seth Macey
ah a A cure. Cure. Q-U-O-R-E.

00:39:47.30
Aaron
Sometimes I say things weird.

00:39:47.74
Seth Macey
Cure. Cure. Cure. An aunt.

00:39:51.15
Aaron
Eggs say eggs, eggs, Colorado.

00:39:52.72
Seth Macey
Eggs. Eggs.

00:39:55.62
Aaron
I say weird.

00:39:55.94
Seth Macey
Colorado.

00:39:57.23
Aaron
um

00:39:57.84
Seth Macey
Say Calgary.

00:39:59.23
Aaron
Calgary.

00:40:00.49
Seth Macey
I guess I just said it

00:40:01.65
Aaron
Yeah. When you're swimming in a pool with everyone, it it gets a little, gets a little funky, it gets a little dirty. And it seems like,

00:40:11.16
Seth Macey
nice little film on the water.

00:40:13.11
Aaron
Yeah, nice little film on the water, some floating ah musketeer bars. Who knows? But here's the nice thing. Your mom said, oh, like a real person went, oh, I like that from you.

00:40:27.01
Aaron
Great. I'm photographing. I keep talking about it I apologize, but I'm photographing microphones with a bunch of engineers and sound engineers and tech guys that have no clue about photography.

00:40:41.99
Aaron
And they are blown away by the creative artistic possibilities for microphone pictures.

00:40:51.61
Seth Macey
Right.

00:40:52.39
Aaron
And now I'm miss swimming in a pool where I'm like Michael Phelps. Like they get the stuff and they're like oh, that's freaking awesome.

00:41:01.23
Seth Macey
right

00:41:01.29
Aaron
Awesome job. And it's real interaction. I'm getting thank yous in verbal email and paychecks. And it's a, it's a different swimming pool, right?

00:41:14.59
Aaron
So sometimes I think taking your talent, taking the art, instead of sharing it with ah a billion users, maybe take it to.

00:41:26.17
Aaron
I know the camp stuff you did was very rewarding. You were very invested into that. You want to produce ah the best work that you could, you know?

00:41:35.61
Seth Macey
Cause I want more boys to go to camp. Cause I, I got to see how firsthand how it changes their lives.

00:41:37.87
Aaron
There you go. You're invested.

00:41:41.57
Seth Macey
It's tech free. They're in the woods. They're doing tasks that require resilience and overcoming fear. Like why would I not want to use my skills to help promote that?

00:41:49.74
Aaron
yeah

00:41:51.53
Seth Macey
And as a bonus, get paid.

00:41:53.94
Aaron
Karen from our Alaska trip, she, one of the things she does with photography is go to dog shelters and give them professional photos. So there's statistics that really good photos of dogs, they will adopt much faster.

00:42:07.21
Seth Macey
Nice. Yeah.

00:42:07.40
Aaron
So like, there's a lot of,

00:42:11.21
Aaron
very altruistic ways too and like you can you can use this art to have a deeper sense of the mimi me me me i i i want i want i just want people to like my photos and and follow me and that i think gets pretty empty especially when you zoom out like you zoom out and you're like what i'm

00:42:29.92
Seth Macey
yeah

00:42:33.59
Seth Macey
you zoom out so far and you're like, i I, feel like I'm pretty close to ego death, man, which is, I don't know if that's a good thing because and in this instance, it's, you can zoom out again so far and be like Seth Macy. I'm just a speck of dust. It doesn't matter.

00:42:52.79
Aaron
yeah

00:42:53.29
Seth Macey
My political opinion to share on Facebook doesn't matter. You know, it just like, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. And so I think part of the,

00:43:00.42
Aaron
This whole conversation doesn't matter Yet we do it.

00:43:02.24
Seth Macey
This whole conversation doesn't matter. Yeah, we do it. Exactly. So, I mean, I guess there's an example for me to look at in creating meaning out of the absurdity that is life and how meaningless it is.

00:43:13.57
Seth Macey
So I guess what I'm saying is, though, a part of this is a another part to this topic is that sharing work for me. i have always viewed as a look at me, look at me, look at me action, even if it's a small look at me.

00:43:31.32
Aaron
I think it is.

00:43:31.51
Seth Macey
And part of me.

00:43:33.64
Aaron
I think it is.

00:43:35.01
Seth Macey
Sure. ah but I guess I'm also trying to, in an effort to read, to reignite some, some passion to create and share identifying that, Hey man, maybe you're just the vessel.

00:43:51.72
Seth Macey
You know, it's especially if you don't care about performance on Instagram, because we know you're showing yourself and the front facing camera obviously is a performance booster.

00:44:02.59
Seth Macey
I mean, don't take my word for it. I'm not a social media expert, but it seems like people want to see the person. However, I mean, i'm I'm thinking like maybe the act of posting isn't egotistical,

00:44:16.06
Seth Macey
at all i'm like At all. Maybe you can just be the vessel for, you know, you used your example with Karen, the the dogs or sending boys to camp and trying to remind myself of that that thought.

00:44:22.54
Aaron
Thank

00:44:31.76
Seth Macey
That if you're opposed, Seth, the grossness of of going overboard with me, me, find a way to not make it about you.

00:44:44.77
Seth Macey
Maybe sharing it and having, keep using this example, your mom or family or close friends love it. Now it's not about you. It's about them.

00:44:53.53
Aaron
Yeah.

00:44:54.31
Seth Macey
Or this, it's about the animal.

00:44:54.43
Aaron
What's about the animals or the nature or the photo even?

00:44:56.52
Seth Macey
Exactly. that's my own problem. That's my own, that's my own problem that I need to get over, which I think I dead just being aware and identifying it is the easiest antidote to that, that, Hey man, not every post is

00:44:59.98
Aaron
Yeah.

00:45:13.83
Seth Macey
is a look at me to the fullest extent or doesn't have to be, you know, the amount of times I would sit there with ah with a wildlife picture and be like, i got to showcase my writing skills.

00:45:20.13
Aaron
Yeah.

00:45:27.65
Seth Macey
Like it has to be like very well said. And, and I'm like, this isn't me. This isn't me.

00:45:35.39
Aaron
The olden days of it. Yeah.

00:45:38.02
Seth Macey
this Fox school. Like, sure I didn't even come up with the adjectives right now. you know what I'm saying? Whereas now, so um yeah, exactly.

00:45:44.08
Aaron
Such an emotional...

00:45:47.08
Seth Macey
It's going to be this poetic and for people who love doing that good, but like that wasn't me. So now I'm posting bears and snorkels and, and prairie dogs waiting for the bus.

00:45:52.82
Aaron
right

00:46:00.86
Seth Macey
And that's me. Like I'm ridiculous.

00:46:03.93
Aaron
Yeah, I'm posting bears and call them jaguars and get into fights with people if they are jaguars or not.

00:46:11.56
Aaron
Yeah.

00:46:12.03
Seth Macey
You know, and I'll play devil's advocate to this too. Like maybe somebody could say, well, you guys are just not taking it seriously and you're throwing it all to the wind because you don't want to put the effort in to grow.

00:46:24.14
Seth Macey
Like somebody could say that. Or why are you posting it all?

00:46:25.92
Aaron
Yeah, they' they're correct.

00:46:27.08
Seth Macey
What would you say to that?

00:46:30.01
Seth Macey
What do you mean?

00:46:31.01
Aaron
ah i I don't care to grow now. I did. but definitely did. i i learned a really interesting growth thing ah with, I mean, half of my growth is from two reels.

00:46:50.99
Aaron
And less more than it motivated me to keep doing that, it demotivated me. It's pretty much when I stopped. It's because it created such a um

00:47:01.10
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:47:05.01
Aaron
such a tide of garbage that I had to then deal with. like tons of, and I'm not trying to complain here, but it just was out of the ordinary. i didn't know those reels were going to do really well and create the double my following, but what it created was a ton of DMs, some arguments, a lot of comments. Do i have to respond to all these comments? I'm exhausted from this.

00:47:37.28
Aaron
A new sense of pressure of like, ooh, I have a new following. Like I got to keep it going. Burke, the slowdown and and the losing of that following whether it was that time I swear instagram would throw in just open the floodgates of bots or followers or whatever the way it just happened.

00:47:58.30
Aaron
I talked about it many times where all of a sudden you would have 300 followers in a row within a span of eight minutes that would come through. And it was like, that's weird. Like that's, an it just, I think they were promoting real so much that that was part of the equation to really boost people. If something went viral.

00:48:19.46
Aaron
I don't know if those people are real. They certainly don't like my photos at this point. It's not a real correlation, I don't think, between what happens with my photos and who likes them compared to my following.

00:48:33.20
Aaron
I feel like it was all kind of a a fake smoke screen. And people are addicted to that number and pushing that number higher and higher and higher. Once I got to that point, what ended up happening was like, I think I mentioned it 20 minutes ago is like, okay, 20,000 compared to 10,000 compared to 30 compared to 50 compared to 60.

00:48:56.67
Aaron
Do I want to put in the effort to get to 200,000? Hell no, I don't. I have other things I need to do. So if that's the answer, then I'm good.

00:49:08.19
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:49:08.28
Aaron
Then I'm good. I don't need to go to 30. I don't need to go to 40. I don't need to go to 50.

00:49:13.18
Seth Macey
Yeah. Do you feel like, I feel like there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of people who believe that,

00:49:13.76
Aaron
oh

00:49:22.79
Seth Macey
You almost have, not in an intense sense, but there's an obligation to share what you've created. So I had, I talk with Ian a lot and we were texting kind of about some of the topics we've discussed today. And he was saying, you do so much stuff. You, you like to read a lot and blah, blah, blah. And he's like why don't you ever, you should share that stuff. Like that stuff is useful.

00:49:48.80
Seth Macey
And I said to him, I said, because the amount of time it takes for me to share that stuff is less time that I can do that stuff.

00:49:57.01
Aaron
Yeah.

00:50:00.46
Seth Macey
And it was just, I'm not trying to be right. I'm saying that it's interesting how differently we view how what we're good at or interested in should or shouldn't be shared.

00:50:17.41
Aaron
Yeah. i'm with you I'm with you on that one. i I think...

00:50:24.02
Aaron
I think there's something. Why why is it not all right to have some privacy and like some stuff that's your own?

00:50:31.72
Seth Macey
I mean, it is, I guess the, I guess the thought process is why, why wouldn't you?

00:50:33.30
Aaron
Right.

00:50:41.92
Aaron
I think because...

00:50:45.60
Aaron
but I don't want to sound rude. Ian, I love you. But mostly some people do, but the 90% that are going to pass through it are like, who fucking cares?

00:50:58.48
Aaron
I don't fucking care what you had for lunch. i don't care what you're reading. i don't care that you cold plunge. I don't care that you spent time with your girlfriend. I don't care that you have a girlfriend. I don't care that you went on vacation. I don't, I really don't care.

00:51:10.60
Aaron
ah really don't care.

00:51:11.52
Seth Macey
So again, then why create, why share?

00:51:11.73
Aaron
and

00:51:14.05
Seth Macey
Like we keep hitting on this.

00:51:16.69
Aaron
Yeah, well, if if...

00:51:17.83
Seth Macey
And Ian would say, because, and Ian would say they that's just, that's the question.

00:51:20.20
Aaron
Because he cares?

00:51:21.35
Seth Macey
No, because yeah, because he cares exactly because I care because I want to make it because I had a good idea.

00:51:27.14
Aaron
Yeah, I think...

00:51:27.75
Seth Macey
And I feel obligated. I would say I'm speaking for him. We'll let him come back on and talk this out. But he would say, I feel like i need to take this idea to the finish line or this thing I do.

00:51:38.78
Aaron
Yes. Yeah, some some people do. Some people should be singing. Some people shouldn't be sharing.

00:51:45.69
Seth Macey
not me.

00:51:47.53
Aaron
Some people shouldn't be sharing their songs.

00:51:50.13
Seth Macey
What do you mean?

00:51:51.24
Aaron
What I mean is, maybe I'm really... curious about what Leonardo DiCaprio is doing during the day.

00:52:02.37
Aaron
Maybe I'm curious about his routine, what his day-to-day is. He's a big figure, but everyone else in the world that thinks they're Leonardo DiCaprio, it needs to share.

00:52:14.67
Aaron
don't think he shares a lot. I'm just using him as a big name, but like share everything that they do.

00:52:22.36
Aaron
We're one of 8 billion people that are trying to live every day. I just don't think it's that important. Now, some, some songs should be shared.

00:52:31.27
Seth Macey
Right.

00:52:33.96
Aaron
Some bands should make it. Some bands work real hard to make it. Some bands have no business playing live anywhere. And they shouldn't keep promoting. And it probably doesn't work because there's like social media is this one void. You're right.

00:52:50.32
Aaron
It's, it's interesting. It's a very blurred line between. Understanding if what's the percent that are seeing this, that care, that's important.

00:53:01.80
Aaron
That's an important stat. Not that 500 people saw this, but how many of them said under their breath, I don't fucking care and swiped on.

00:53:04.53
Seth Macey
All right.

00:53:11.68
Aaron
That's an important stat. But we don't get that regulation of, dude, this sucks.

00:53:13.77
Seth Macey
i

00:53:18.16
Aaron
It's only likes. It's only likes and comments. It's not, there's there's very little negative sort of feedback. So everything is good.

00:53:30.28
Aaron
Everything works. Everything goes. I can share every moment of my life and be like, oh, I got 200 views on that story. Wow, that was just my lunch. Oh my God, people like that.

00:53:40.63
Aaron
I'm going to do that.

00:53:41.26
Seth Macey
So what's the problem in living in sweet ignorance to your potential lack of expertise? I mean, this this begs the question based on our episode, if certain things aren't weren't if certain things aren't worth sharing, what is?

00:53:56.62
Seth Macey
Right? you can get You can get back to that theme that you're talking about of, well, if this isn't important, nothing is.

00:53:59.11
Aaron
Yeah. Interesting.

00:54:02.30
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:54:03.64
Aaron
Right. Right.

00:54:05.15
Seth Macey
So I'm curious when you said like 1%, I think you said 1% sales. Why do you feel like maybe that's an important metric? And like I guess to be controversial, why would hearing that something sucks be useful?

00:54:20.61
Aaron
Because it would, the runt of the litter gets bullied to

00:54:28.71
Aaron
straighten certain behavior or get a get around unwanted behavior it's part it's part of i feel like nature it's part humans have lost that a bit where no one can offend anyone i'm not going to get into any of that but my point is on social media it's a lot of the same Now, there's a lot of yucky stuff on social media. Don't get me wrong.

00:54:56.38
Aaron
There is. I'm sure a lot of people get hurt on there and feel bullied or attacked.

00:55:00.55
Seth Macey
ah They do, for sure.

00:55:02.30
Aaron
Yes. But overall, when you're sharing, i think, again, stuff that's a little bit removed, there's there's probably a lot of non-reaction where it's actually a reaction.

00:55:18.96
Aaron
So in real life, Hey, Seth, look at the dinner I had today. And I keep showing you every day. ah keep running over to your cubicle being like, look at my dinner.

00:55:31.17
Aaron
You might be like, dude, dude, can you stop doing that?

00:55:32.21
Seth Macey
I feel like this guy sucks.

00:55:35.47
Aaron
It's fucking annoying.

00:55:36.86
Seth Macey
Right.

00:55:37.51
Aaron
But if I post it online and you.

00:55:38.98
Seth Macey
but Is that my problem?

00:55:41.74
Aaron
No, i think it's I think it's good to let people know that they're like.

00:55:46.34
Seth Macey
But I have the option of just like tuning out too, right? I can just unfollow you.

00:55:49.18
Aaron
irritating.

00:55:51.08
Seth Macey
Can I?

00:55:51.18
Aaron
Sure. Sure. But I'm just saying overall, we just don't get a lot of like,

00:55:58.79
Seth Macey
Yeah, I hear you. Yeah.

00:55:59.79
Aaron
how many people talk behind other people's backs on social media? How many people send a story to their friends and go like, do you fucking believe this? And talk shit about people without saying it to their face.

00:56:15.56
Seth Macey
right

00:56:17.55
Aaron
Everyone's probably listening in the car, listening wherever they're listening and being like, shit, I do i do that.

00:56:25.93
Aaron
But we don't, no one's correcting.

00:56:26.08
Seth Macey
right

00:56:29.22
Aaron
There's a nice thing about, there's a nice thing about music as an art. You hit a wrong note. It, it hurts your ear. There's an instant correction. There's instant feedback of like, Ooh, that was wrong. I got to practice that again.

00:56:42.63
Aaron
got do that better. With this, there's not a lot of that.

00:56:45.16
Seth Macey
Right.

00:56:47.49
Aaron
You can just go down a road and feel like you're doing great, but you were yeah get into like a

00:56:56.22
Seth Macey
That's a good point. You know what people, i feel like maybe a lot of the frustration is, I feel like what I'm creating is amazing. And there is a group of people that's telling me it's amazing. And you don't see the people in your blind spot who are like, Oh,

00:57:12.13
Seth Macey
And not that that necessarily matters, but I think your point is maybe hearing that and taking that and feeling the pain of that may make you go in direction that improves your art, improves your craft, improves your life potentially.

00:57:27.69
Aaron
Yeah, it gives you... Okay, I don't sell a lot of prints. i don't...

00:57:35.42
Seth Macey
because your stuff sucks. Yeah.

00:57:37.16
Aaron
Maybe. But that's a troubleshooting thing that I would want to go through if like that was a metric of like success. Does my stuff suck? Am I picking the wrong pieces to print?

00:57:48.42
Aaron
Is my marketing bad?

00:57:48.45
Seth Macey
Yeah. Right.

00:57:49.86
Aaron
Is my sales technique bad? Is my business... Bad, like what?

00:57:54.87
Seth Macey
right

00:57:55.47
Aaron
I need to figure this out because the feedback is black and white. It's I am not selling crap. So no one likes it essentially is what I'm getting. You know, and I think...

00:58:08.22
Aaron
Again, you're you're told like, oh my God, that photo had 300 likes. All right, that's that's amazing. And that's great. But i would how valuable would an app be where it's only like genuine, honest, not mean, but honest critique.

00:58:29.58
Seth Macey
ah

00:58:29.72
Aaron
And you got 300 ideas about how you could make a photo better.

00:58:34.58
Seth Macey
humans can't help themselves that would be chaos and i think you've described you've described reddit listening you've described reddit people can't though

00:58:36.58
Aaron
It would be chaos. ah yeah But if you could stomach it, might you might you learn much faster than the other way?

00:58:49.65
Seth Macey
i think you massively underestimate how many people can take criticism and not take it personally

00:58:56.87
Aaron
i I do. I'm saying in a magical world.

00:58:59.50
Seth Macey
Magical world. Yeah, that is a learned skill. And even the most stoic of people may still flinch at a comment that is critical of their art, especially.

00:59:06.54
Aaron
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

00:59:10.89
Seth Macey
Especially.

00:59:12.97
Aaron
Yeah, especially when it's 990 to 1.

00:59:16.74
Seth Macey
Yeah, I think to to also maybe do a counter argument to your point, I think there is value in. this concept, I think there was a book about it, Mel Robbins, Tony Robbins' wife.

00:59:30.49
Seth Macey
This idea of let them, you heard this?

00:59:33.24
Aaron
Yeah, it's very big in the middle school.

00:59:35.41
Seth Macey
Is it big? I haven't read the book, but I've heard of the concept prior to the book where if you just let people live your life live their lives, it can be very freeing for you personally.

00:59:36.72
Aaron
Yeah.

00:59:40.07
Aaron
yeah

00:59:43.08
Aaron
Yeah.

00:59:48.09
Seth Macey
But I think that's separate from what you're talking about.

00:59:48.16
Aaron
but um

00:59:50.41
Seth Macey
i think what you're speaking about is that Strong feedback when asked, hopefully.

00:59:58.74
Aaron
yeah

00:59:59.41
Seth Macey
Or just like maybe not even feedback, just a way in a magical world for people to know, hey, this is working or not.

01:00:08.11
Seth Macey
But it's also counterintuitive to our whole conversation where, you know, I'm talking about posting pairs with scuba gear and i don't care if people don't like that. Because it's been it's been a way for me to get excited again about just simply simply pressing post.

01:00:29.07
Aaron
Yeah.

01:00:29.29
Seth Macey
i' I'm so excited about every aspect of the creative process except the post part.

01:00:29.97
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

01:00:36.02
Seth Macey
And I think another reframe that's going to be helpful for me in the quest to, again, my why just to let people who I care about and who care about me know what I'm up to and see my work. Yeah.

01:00:49.33
Seth Macey
The final stage in that quest is pressing post and reframing it as that and not seeing it as a, okay, this is the me, me, me stage where I have to, be super funny or super poetic, seeing it as just that this is the means to the end, this last stage.

01:01:09.30
Aaron
Yeah, I think we know where I stand on social media at this point in our 200th and something. What episode is this? 55, 60? Yeah.

01:01:19.77
Seth Macey
Yeah, and I mean, we all do. and we

01:01:22.07
Aaron
yeah

01:01:22.34
Seth Macey
We try to avoid repeating things. Obviously, themes come up, but it's...

01:01:26.49
Aaron
But it's it's interesting. I think in conclusion for myself, I know I've been talking in circles a bit, but because I i do see the value in it, and in and developing your craft, I do see the value and the part where you have zero followers and you start this thing and now you have 100 and have 500, now you have 1,000 and getting a point where and getting to a point I think if you can answer at that point in your career, where do I want to get this and, and why, and what do I think will happen if I get to 10,000? What do I think will happen if I get to a hundred thousand?

01:02:04.35
Aaron
And I can tell you, i feel like, and pretty confidently that there are nine ways to skin a cat or does a cat a hundred ways to skin a cat. How many ways are we skinning cats?

01:02:19.18
Seth Macey
As many as you want.

01:02:20.84
Aaron
Nine lives for a cat?

01:02:22.39
Seth Macey
Nine lives for a cat.

01:02:24.31
Aaron
There's many ways to skin a cat.

01:02:25.58
Seth Macey
I think it's many.

01:02:26.73
Aaron
That's gross.

01:02:27.67
Seth Macey
That is gross. Don't skin cats.

01:02:28.28
Aaron
What a gross saying. Anyway, there's many ways to get a gig. There's many ways to spend time with the things that are meaningful in your life. There's many there's many things that get taken away from the other successes that you may have in life when you're spending a lot of time dumping into the posting and creation and trying to perfect or maximize social media.

01:03:01.24
Aaron
I don't think it's a one-to-one return. I don't think it's a great ah ROI on investment of time.

01:03:05.76
Seth Macey
No. Yeah.

01:03:10.03
Aaron
But if that's your only thing, if that's your distraction, if that's what you love in life, Let them. But if you are trying to become a professional photographer or videographer, or you want satisfaction and kind you want to be content in life, you want a relationship, you want family, you want to maintain a house.

01:03:16.92
Seth Macey
yeah

01:03:33.24
Aaron
I feel like the hours that you're putting into this could be allocated elsewhere. And the actual thing you're looking for can be discovered.

01:03:45.07
Aaron
If you back away from this dream of like, if I keep going, I'm going to make it

01:03:45.74
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:03:51.52
Seth Macey
Yeah. That's so funny. I hear this with, I hear this with a lot of very new beginners where it's, I'll ask, it's come up a couple times in one-on-ones like, or like why, uh, people have left their job or something.

01:04:07.67
Seth Macey
And I'll say, are you hoping to do with your camera? Well, I'm hoping to make living with my camera. hoping to make money with my camera. And I go, part of me goes, well, like you can make money doing what you were doing or anything else.

01:04:24.67
Seth Macey
And you can shoot for fun.

01:04:28.66
Aaron
Yeah.

01:04:29.95
Seth Macey
you know i'm saying? There's this weird,

01:04:31.04
Aaron
yeah

01:04:34.44
Seth Macey
I need to make money with my camera.

01:04:39.53
Aaron
yeah

01:04:40.33
Seth Macey
You don't. There's better ways to make money.

01:04:44.95
Aaron
yeah

01:04:44.99
Seth Macey
Right.

01:04:45.72
Aaron
yeah

01:04:46.02
Seth Macey
I always just find it interesting that it's almost and i don't know how that pre-programming comes in. I mean, i I'm sure a lot of people, there's satisfaction for making dollars with being creative and using your camera. Maybe that's the.

01:05:03.18
Seth Macey
uh, the appeal, but it's not a, it's not an either or, i mean, you can look at you, right? We tell this all the time.

01:05:10.26
Aaron
yeah

01:05:10.82
Seth Macey
have your job, health insurance, all this great stuff. And you have a camera and you're awesome at photography and videography. So why,

01:05:21.82
Seth Macey
why quit to be one of those people who hops on a radio? It's like, I quit my nine to five to like, I mean, good for those people, but it's not necessary.

01:05:31.69
Aaron
No, it's not necessary. It's definitely not. Especially if I'm not miserable.

01:05:38.67
Seth Macey
Yeah. I think another, just to, before we wrap up to touch on this whole, um, you know, nihilistic approach that myself has had a little bit regarding creativity, uh, do something ridiculous with your photography.

01:05:57.50
Seth Macey
Put scoogs. I think this is also why I've been putting stuff like scuba goggles on bears and Rolexes on black bears and the pants and tie on the prairie dogs. It's just, it's so absurd. And so, ah

01:06:18.62
Seth Macey
it's so ridiculous that it forces you to just enjoy the act.

01:06:23.76
Aaron
Yeah, and it's super creative and different.

01:06:24.62
Seth Macey
There's no, there's no, there's no choice.

01:06:26.44
Aaron
like

01:06:27.89
Seth Macey
Like, it's just, I know this is so, absurd or ridiculous and it's forcing me to it's not forcing me but it's getting me excited to press post

01:06:41.60
Aaron
I like it, man. I could see it as a book series. I could see it as what you always do. And if I see something and I'm like, oh, I wish I thought of that. and Like, I want to do that, but now I can't because he's doing it.

01:06:52.50
Seth Macey
But here's where it gets dangerous though, man. Here's where it gets dangerous. And I feel like this is where we apply the brakes as a creator, right? This could become my whole world. I got to do this now.

01:07:02.83
Aaron
Yeah, it's true.

01:07:03.62
Seth Macey
I'm going to go through all my, I'm going to go through all my, my library.

01:07:04.27
Aaron
It's true. It could.

01:07:07.32
Seth Macey
This is what i'm going to post every single time. I'm going to get a hundred thousand followers. I'm going to get brand deals. And it just, it spirals.

01:07:14.45
Aaron
I know it will.

01:07:15.44
Seth Macey
All that stuff is great.

01:07:15.57
Aaron
It's going to.

01:07:16.71
Seth Macey
But like if you can press the brakes just like that, I'm just having fun. I'm back to having fun. I'm back to being excited to share.

01:07:23.00
Aaron
Yeah.

01:07:24.38
Seth Macey
I'm back to not caring about the likes. I'm back to all that stuff. And I'm back to just authentic me.

01:07:29.80
Aaron
Yeah.

01:07:30.55
Seth Macey
You're winning.

01:07:31.51
Aaron
Yeah, that's the best way. You've got to be authentic.

01:07:34.86
Seth Macey
And I feel like a vessel to just, even if it's outside of yeah outside of photography, just doodle. I think what I'm getting is the the The fight against that hopelessness of meaningless is to lean into it more and do and really dig into the minor details and things that don't matter and just have fun doing them.

01:07:55.45
Seth Macey
In other words, you can create the meaning for yourself out of all the meaninglessness.

01:07:55.55
Aaron
Yeah.

01:08:00.99
Aaron
Yeah.

01:08:01.40
Seth Macey
You're winning.

01:08:01.51
Aaron
Have fun.

01:08:02.50
Seth Macey
yeah

01:08:02.73
Aaron
And with, with all life said, with all my poo-poos on things, if you're having fun and you're not hurting anyone, let them.

01:08:08.60
Seth Macey
ah winning

01:08:11.26
Seth Macey
Yeah, you're winning, man.

01:08:12.09
Aaron
Yeah.

01:08:12.38
Seth Macey
If you're having fun.

01:08:13.79
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that's a, I think that's a great way to conclude it, but yeah, you're have fun, have fun.

01:08:21.52
Seth Macey
Have fun and do whatever means necessary to get there.

01:08:21.62
Aaron
Don't be miserable.

01:08:25.22
Aaron
Don't be miserable chasing some idea.

01:08:27.19
Seth Macey
Don't be miserable. That's so self-inflicted.

01:08:29.94
Aaron
Yeah.

01:08:30.99
Seth Macey
And if you feel yourself zooming out so far, and disconnecting with people, that's the other thing too, before we wrap up, like I, I feel like I'm pretty self-aware. It's something I'm always trying to, it's a skill I'm always trying to build.

01:08:44.82
Seth Macey
I've noticed that, that, that I'm feeling like really disconnected to people and not able to relate. And again, leaning into reaching out to friends more, like making phone calls to friends, which I don't usually do. How, how's your, how'd your weekend go?

01:09:01.69
Seth Macey
Uh, just, just chatting. I mean, on the weekend, I, uh, with a friend of mine, Friday night, Saturday night, we stayed up till 1am just playing video games, which was hard for me because old me or not old me, but i guess recent me, which I'm trying to get out of is just, this is not a good use of your time.

01:09:21.29
Aaron
yeah

01:09:24.41
Seth Macey
Go to bed so you can be productive tomorrow. And it's like, no, man, just chill, play a video game for two hours, connect with your friend.

01:09:30.58
Aaron
Yeah. It's okay. It'll all be okay.

01:09:32.89
Seth Macey
It's okay. It's okay. Yeah. And so just again, that feeling of disconnect, like, okay, well I'll lean more into the friends that I do have. I'll talk to them more.

01:09:42.04
Aaron
Yeah, absolutely.

01:09:43.87
Seth Macey
So that's all I got for today. If you like this episode, feel free to leave a rating review on Apple podcast, Spotify. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel as well.

01:09:52.92
Aaron
Check us out. All right.

01:09:54.04
Seth Macey
That's all I got for today. Good trying, man.

01:09:55.95
Aaron
Take care.