Why Getting Competitive with Your Photography Will Help You Improve

Are photography contests worth your time? Can submitting your work really change your creative trajectory or confidence? Seth and Aaron sit down with photographer Neil Dankoff (@neildankoff), VIEWBUG CEO Ori Guttin, and Zach Hodges from VSCO to explore how photography contests go far beyond competing for prizes and likes, offering insight into your work, sharpening your skills, and pushing you to think outside the Instagram bubble.

From judging nuances to personal stories of life-changing wins, the conversation dives deep into what makes a photo stand out in a sea of submissions. Along the way, the guests share behind-the-scenes tips on building a photography career, the value of branching out to specialized communities like VIEWBUG and VSCO, and how contests can motivate you to experiment, grow, and reconnect with why you started creating in the first place.

Expect to Learn:

• Why the best photograph isn’t always the most technically perfect one.
• How contests can inspire you to reevaluate your portfolio and take creative risks.
• Why rejection is necessary feedback and valuable to your growth.
• How platforms designed for photographers differ from mainstream social media.
• Why we often mistake the effort invested in capturing a photograph as a reflection of the image's quality or value.
  
  

How to Enter the "My Best Frame" Photography Competition:
(You do not have to do both, just one!)

1. Visit the contest page on VIEWBUG: https://www.viewbug.com/contests/my-best-frame-photo-contest
   
   
2. Post your work on VSCO with the hashtag #MyBestFrame. Learn how here: https://vsco.co/vsco/journal/win-the-serengeti-trip-of-a-lifetime 

Contest Parameters:

• How to Enter: Submit your photo via VIEWBUG or post it on VSCO with the hashtag #MyBestFrame.
• Deadline: Submissions close on March 30th, 2025.
• Genres Allowed: Open to ALL genres.
• Number of Entries: Unlimited submissions allowed.
• Grand Prize: A 7-day luxury Serengeti safari for two valued at $20,000 courtesy of Elewana Lodge.
• Runner-Up Prizes: Annual VSCO Pro or VIEWBUG Platinum memberships for 10 runners-up on each platform.
• Ownership Rights: You keep all rights to your photos.

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography
@thephotographermindset

Transcript

00:20.90
Seth Macey
Wow. We got a full house here today, don't we, Aaron?

00:24.19
Aaron
Yeah, five breaking records.

00:25.77
Seth Macey
I don't know if you've ever had five guests.

00:27.50
Aaron
No, PR.

00:27.99
Seth Macey
I've been looking forward to this all day. We've got Zach Hodges from VSCO, Neil Dankoff, we know you well. We've got Ori Guttinn from Viewbug. We're going to talk about a lot of stuff today. Neil, you've got another competition that you actually informed me. It's not really your competition this year.

00:43.27
Seth Macey
we've been

00:43.45
Neil
that's what happens.

00:43.88
Seth Macey
think Aaron and I have judged it. You're... When it was the Neil Dankoff photography competition, two, three years in a row, and now you're doing something different this year. We're going to talk a lot about that competition so people know how to submit to it. I think we're going to get into how people can almost become professionals at submitting to photography competitions.

01:02.01
Seth Macey
Some of the nuance of how they can optimize that, because as you explained to me, it can be very lucrative. And of course, we're going to get to hear from ah Zach from VSCO and Ori from Viewbug about their involvement in this.

01:13.62
Seth Macey
And then also about how some of you listeners can start thinking maybe more outside the box of just Instagram of how you can use some of these other platforms to advance your career or your passion, whatever it may be.

01:24.38
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

01:26.51
Seth Macey
So welcome, everybody. Thank you for your time today. Tell us about this competition, Neil. How did this come to be?

01:33.89
Neil
Okay, so a lot of your listeners know that i started my own photography competition back in when COVID was happening, and we were all kind of looking for something new to do.

01:45.19
Seth Macey
Uh-huh.

01:45.64
Neil
i was thinking, how can I maybe benefit the photography community? i had these great contacts with a lot of these resorts, and I had a gallery. And I know myself moving up in the world, I was trying to look for any type of exposure possible.

02:01.35
Neil
So originally the idea was do a competition and the winner or winners will have their photographs displayed in my gallery for a month, give them great exposure, sales will directly to them.

02:11.35
Seth Macey
right

02:12.62
Neil
So that's how it all started. And then I was able to also get a grand prize trip where I would go on the trip as well. So win-win for everyone. I did this for a while and then I realized I needed kind of a partner to get get the message out there a little better.

02:28.21
Neil
i contacted Ori. He was totally into it.

02:30.59
Seth Macey
Thank you.

02:32.00
Neil
We did quite a few competitions together. All quite successful, um all great trips and me going on the trips with the winners and it's just been an amazing experience.

02:42.59
Neil
And now Ori behind the scenes got in contact with VSCO to get even more exposure and have this great collaboration. And I guess the idea behind all these is, like I said, just kind of win-win for everyone.

02:54.63
Neil
um And that's how this one got launched. We have a great trip with our partners Elwana. So pretty exciting.

03:02.99
Seth Macey
Yeah. What's the grand prize? Obviously the link to this competition is in the episode description of this. And course we invite people to check that out.

03:09.83
Neil
Yeah, so the grand prize is as singular as Serengeti Explorer Elwana, their new lodge in Tanzania. So it's a six night stay, seven full days doing a safari. You're doing basically two safari drives every single day.

03:24.67
Neil
ah They also have a hide, which I've never done, which is kind of interesting where, you know, they're building this camouflage hide. You go inside of it, you get the animals without them knowing you're there. So you can get a lot closer. It's safer.

03:37.06
Neil
And it's their brand new lodge. So they really are hoping that they can get a couple of great photographers, one great photographer to come down. it's actually a trip for two.

03:48.31
Neil
So the winner can get their spouse to come.

03:51.98
Seth Macey
Can me and Aaron win?

03:52.06
Neil
more That's right.

03:54.50
Seth Macey
We could.

03:54.59
Aaron
Yeah.

03:54.61
Neil
That's right.

03:55.26
Aaron
I was going to say, Neil, I've asked this every year.

03:55.32
Neil
Yeah.

03:57.54
Aaron
Can judges submit this year?

03:58.50
Ori
Thank you.

04:00.30
Neil
Yeah. You've never been subtle. Judges cannot submit. It's too easy to say, i win.

04:03.98
Aaron
Okay.

04:06.61
Aaron
Yeah. You've not taken my notes, I've guessed, but that's fine.

04:07.15
Seth Macey
Right.

04:09.42
Neil
No.

04:09.45
Seth Macey
I guess that's an important piece of information.

04:09.63
Neil
Yes. Yes.

04:10.71
Aaron
That's fine.

04:12.05
Seth Macey
aaron and yours truly will be part of the judging committee. So that's exciting.

04:16.67
Neil
yeah

04:16.66
Seth Macey
that's so That's really exciting. When is the contest open from? Let's get some more details so people can know ah ah what this is all about and how they can best submit. And then we can um you know continue to reference the contest, but talk about some ah some other things as well.

04:33.73
Seth Macey
Who's best to answer that?

04:35.06
Ori
um yeah, I can jump in soon.

04:37.19
Seth Macey
Ori. Ori jumps in. There we go.

04:38.70
Ori
I'll jump in. The contest is already open for submissions, so there's two ways of participating.

04:42.50
Seth Macey
Okay.

04:44.19
Ori
They can head over to ViewBook and search for the contest on the main contest hub. Simply submit their photo or head over to VizCon hashtag their favorite photos with hashtag my best frame.

04:56.83
Ori
And those are the two ways to participate. And the submissions are going to be open until the 30th of March.

05:02.86
Seth Macey
okay

05:02.92
Ori
So still a few weeks left and...

05:05.71
Zach Hodges
Yep. Yep. Yep.

05:06.12
Ori
plenty of time to dig into your hard drives, look for the photos that make you the proudest and submit them to both communities.

05:14.13
Seth Macey
As many as you want, correct?

05:15.77
Ori
As many as you want, correct?

05:16.93
Seth Macey
Any genre.

05:18.94
Ori
It's open to any genre. So if you're a portrait lover or a wildlife photographer, it doesn't matter. We're just looking for your best photo.

05:27.65
Seth Macey
Oh man, it's be hard to judge.

05:27.75
Ori
And... um

05:29.61
Seth Macey
It's gonna be so much good stuff.

05:29.76
Ori
at It's going to be exciting to see how you, Aaron and Neil break it through and select the favorite image.

05:33.86
Aaron
Yeah.

05:37.47
Seth Macey
Yeah, no kidding.

05:39.00
Zach Hodges
And Ori for for view bugs like do people need to have a profile or do they need to sign up for anything I know on the VSCO side you just need to have and an account it could be a free account to to be able to submit is there anything like that for you.

05:38.97
Seth Macey
No kidding.

05:46.38
Neil
Okay.

05:50.44
Ori
Yeah, for ViewBog, it's the same. You need to have a free account on ViewBog and simply upload the photo to the community and then pretty much drag it into the contest. Pretty simple.

06:00.44
Zach Hodges
Nice good and easy.

06:00.98
Seth Macey
Wow. And if you win, you get to go to Africa, but judges can't. I didn't want to go anyways. Whatever, guys. Sounds lame.

06:05.92
Zach Hodges
It's one of the curses of like being behind the scenes of this kind of stuff is like half the time.

06:08.85
Aaron
Right.

06:09.55
Ori
yeah Yeah, I don't know if you can submit a photo sac.

06:09.91
Zach Hodges
I'm like, I want to be doing that. Why am I on this side?

06:12.19
Aaron
know. Yeah.

06:16.31
Ori
I know I cannot, but unfortunately, we cannot participate this time.

06:19.19
Aaron
I'll

06:21.80
Seth Macey
That's okay.

06:22.35
Aaron
wear one of those glasses and mustaches when I claim my prize.

06:25.13
Ori
yeah

06:27.69
Ori
There you go.

06:28.50
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

06:29.59
Seth Macey
That's great. And so it's entirely free. As many as you, is it free?

06:35.02
Ori
Yes.

06:35.57
Seth Macey
You said that as many as you want any genre.

06:36.38
Zach Hodges
Yep.

06:37.79
Seth Macey
Very, very cool. Are there any other prizes other than the L1 or is that the big ticket item solely?

06:43.50
Ori
So and that's a big ticket item, but then we also have 10 runner ups on each platform. 10 runner ups on ViewBug will get a a year of VSCO Pro and then 10 runner ups on the VSCO platform will get a year of ViewBog Platinum membership.

07:01.43
Ori
So it's a pretty cool way to to also win access to the other membership, to get a membership and explore your photography in a deeper way rather than just Instagram or in other places.

07:07.29
Aaron
Very cool.

07:11.98
Seth Macey
Yeah.

07:12.50
Ori
We can get into that later.

07:14.23
Seth Macey
Yeah.

07:14.30
Zach Hodges
Yeah. Yep.

07:14.43
Seth Macey
We're going to get into that later. I think that that's, uh, people need to see the value in, uh, a prize that helps them maybe get out of the tunnel vision of Instagram. Uh, but we will talk about, uh, kind of your missions and goals, uh, and how you're trying to help photographers.

07:29.10
Seth Macey
What I want to know is, uh, Neil, there's a lot of people listening sometimes when they they hear, oh, there's, there's gonna be so many submissions. I might as well not even bother. You told me though, that, Sometimes the people who have won prizes or even just have made the shortlist and in competitions, it's just changed their confidence and their life entirely. It's put them on an upwards trajectory.

07:52.34
Seth Macey
And I kind of want to hear you had told me a story. I wondered if you could share it. If you remember the one I'm referring to about the I forget who it was, one of the guys who won your previous competitions.

08:02.05
Neil
Yeah. So it's actually someone who just won last competition I did with Viewbug. um And he, mean, first of all, we had over, ah correct me if I'm wrong, Gory, I think we had over 50,000 submissions.

08:15.86
Neil
So that's a lot of submissions and yeah, you could feel if you're submitting a photo, you know, something i I think I heard a funny fact the other day that when you try to do a lottery, when you buy a lottery ticket, your chances of winning are almost the exact same statistically as if you don't play.

08:17.21
Aaron
oh

08:32.18
Neil
So.

08:32.14
Seth Macey
Nice.

08:32.39
Ori
Thank

08:33.33
Neil
So it could be definitely overwhelming when you're thinking that there's 50,000 and there's so many talented photographers out there.

08:34.28
Seth Macey
real

08:40.86
Neil
um But this is a gentleman who really did not expect to win. And his photo really went against a lot of the rules that you have, that people do have when they're submitting photos, you know the rule of two thirds or whatever it is, a rule of thirds.

08:49.86
Zach Hodges
Mm-hmm.

08:55.62
Neil
His was like the horizon was right at the midpoint, but he had that magical ah part of the photo that you I think you have to have that wow factor where there was this incredible, incredible storm cloud in the background to a sunflower field and all the sunflowers had to be happened to be turned away as if they were shielding themselves from it and all the lighting and the colors matched up. And it was just incredible, hit me right away when I saw it, loved it, kept coming back to it.

09:23.15
Neil
um And when I told him, like, I had to call him six times because he kept thinking it was a scam. I'm like, you've won the trip.

09:31.08
Ori
amendment

09:31.95
Neil
ah Yeah, how much you need me to send? He's like, how much you need me to send to you? I'm like, nothing. I'm sending you the money for the plane ticket. He's like, and he would hang up on me. don't you

09:39.94
Ori
Thanks.

09:40.05
Seth Macey
wow

09:41.30
Neil
It's so funny. And we keep talking about it now.

09:42.90
Zach Hodges
Thank you.

09:44.34
Neil
But no, now he's going to this on this incredible trip to Nihi Sumba, which is ah an unbelievable resort ah in Indonesia. And ah he said, he said, like, I've never gone anywhere.

09:56.41
Neil
i've never really traveled anywhere. and This is going to be life changing. In fact, it's so funny that i remember even a week after talking to him about it, where he finally accepted that he had won. thought it was still for one day that he was flying 40 hours for a one day shoot.

10:11.05
Ori
Yeah.

10:11.15
Neil
And at one point he mentioned it. I'm like, no, no, no. It's it's a full week. He said, a week? but it just He just couldn't believe it. So it's I think life changing for him.

10:18.38
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

10:19.29
Neil
I think he's going to have a great time. He's also bringing in his wife. So yeah, that's the part that you really feel good about giving a prize to someone where it makes such a huge impact.

10:22.74
Seth Macey
Awesome.

10:28.62
Aaron
That's so cool.

10:28.61
Seth Macey
Yeah. And of course, Ori and Zach, I mean, this is, it goes without saying, it's great getting and behind a a competition like this is great for your, the companies you work for, of course, but beyond that, and Zach, I'll direct this question at you.

10:42.15
Seth Macey
How do you feel competitions like this are really ah serving the individual who's submitting ah in terms of

10:42.59
Zach Hodges
yeah

10:51.19
Seth Macey
I don't know, and encouraging them or advancing their career somehow, some way, like what's the value beyond, I guess from their perspective.

10:59.21
Zach Hodges
Yeah, well, I just think even that going through the exercise of coming through all of your work, kind of self-evaluating, self-curating you know your own work, that is a worthwhile experience in and of itself. you know A lot of professional photographers talk about how they're constantly updating their portfolio.

11:15.60
Zach Hodges
um And I think just even that exercise alone is is worthwhile.

11:15.65
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

11:19.51
Zach Hodges
um But then... you know I think when you really decide to send something out, that there's a difference between thinking a photo is good and and thinking it's good enough to do that. And I think you may be surprised by what you discover in yourself about your work.

11:34.15
Zach Hodges
And then also just as you see everybody else's submissions, um you know you just start to get more comfortable with the whole process.

11:34.27
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

11:41.18
Zach Hodges
And i mean, I know on VSCO, we're always doing these kinds of things. And I'm sure Aurea is too. um There's ways that you can be licensed. You can have your work done. you know, used by brands or used by VSCO, you know, there's, there's all kinds of opportunities that, you know, it's just like, it's ah almost like a practice that you can kind of get into to just keep, keep up on these things.

12:00.51
Zach Hodges
And, you know, maybe you don't win this one, but maybe you get another one. And it, they're great exposure opportunities that really don't cost you anything, but some time and it's time well spent anyways, because you need to kind of have your work organized for yourself and, you know, have things in a presentable state.

12:15.45
Zach Hodges
So I think it, I think it's really useful.

12:15.85
Seth Macey
Right.

12:17.26
Zach Hodges
Hmm.

12:17.64
Seth Macey
Yeah, I like the idea of a portfolio review. I mean, I go through my Lightroom catalog, I'll jump back four years and I go, oh, I took this.

12:20.03
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

12:23.24
Seth Macey
I can't believe that. Like, I thought this was junk at the time, but this is actually great. And I have a new editing style and I'm excited to get into this. Ori, what do you think?

12:30.35
Ori
Yeah, and Zach, exactly if following up on what you said, we're on the same page. And something that we've seen a lot and gotten gotten a lot of feedback is um joining a contest helps you with over overcomeing overcoming self-doubt, and it builds a lot of confidence.

12:47.24
Ori
And in the art industry, in the photography industry, we said we see that a lot. We see until the moment that you get some feedback or some criticism, that's where you're like, okay, maybe I'm better than I thought and it gives you a lot of confidence.

13:03.08
Ori
So just for thinking of joining a contest, knowing that it's going to be motivational, you're going to get some feedback, even as you said, sakiben if you don't win the first prize, but you get feedback from other photographers and you

13:03.51
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

13:18.97
Ori
you see that you're better than you thought. Just that buildup of confidence is priceless and it's super valuable to see that happening on the communities.

13:28.46
Seth Macey
Yeah, Aaron and I actually mentioned, I think it was the last episode, Aaron, where we said it's tough to, you know, the good feedback is excellent.

13:28.72
Zach Hodges
yeah

13:36.47
Seth Macey
The the the feedback that gives you confidence, you place high into competitions, that's that's great. But what's also great, and people might think I'm crazy, is potentially finishing in the bottom 10th percentile.

13:47.89
Seth Macey
Because when you post that photo on Instagram or somewhere else, nobody's in the comments saying like, hey, this is not good. And so you can live your life kind of in sweet ignorance and not really have any of that necessary harsh, but maybe necessary feedback to help you dig deeper.

13:57.73
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

13:57.75
Ori
Thank you.

13:57.83
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

14:06.48
Seth Macey
Okay, where can I improve? How can i do better? Why did this win in mine placed lower? You can get kind of that feedback in a competition environment that you don't get in a ah community that's always so accommodating and uplifting. And mind you, the photography community, that's a good quality to have. Don't get me wrong.

14:24.61
Seth Macey
But I think it's also an opportunity submitting your work in a competition like State to to fall flat on your face. And an image that you thought was spectacular just isn't in comparison to some of the other things.

14:36.72
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

14:37.66
Seth Macey
like what do you think?

14:38.96
Zach Hodges
Just another thing that was current to me as we were talking is just the visibility that it can bring you.

14:38.98
Seth Macey
See you nodding.

14:44.48
Zach Hodges
Even if you don't win, at least on VSCO, your submission is probably at least going to be showed in the and the hashtag group that people will see. And I'm constantly having people ask me, how do I be more visible?

14:56.13
Zach Hodges
How do i you know get get seen more on VSCO? And but that's one of my answers is just, hey, submit to those challenges, you know this contest. ah We curate those things. It's it's it's featured on a page. like People see this stuff. And even if you don't win, you're still getting in front of a lot of people, ah maybe the other people who are submitting that are looking at the the um you know the other submissions.

15:18.99
Zach Hodges
And it's it's connecting. It's connecting you with the rest of the community. It's a way for for others to to find you. um So yeah, I think i think there's a a lot of benefit. And like you said, you know maybe you'll realize, oh, wow, um these other submissions are so much better in these other ways. Here's some things I can work on.

15:35.60
Zach Hodges
um

15:35.60
Seth Macey
Yeah.

15:36.11
Zach Hodges
<unk>s it's It's great.

15:37.34
Seth Macey
That's happened to me firsthand where I'm like, this is amazing. And then it's just objectively, or I guess subjectively, it's all art.

15:45.85
Zach Hodges
Yeah. Yeah.

15:46.11
Seth Macey
It just ends up not being great. And I say, huh, that's weird.

15:48.20
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

15:50.08
Seth Macey
Why? And then you can kind of comb through some of the submissions that place higher than you're like, oh, okay, I see that there is more to this photo than there is to mine.

15:56.50
Zach Hodges
yeah

15:58.10
Seth Macey
There's a story.

15:58.70
Ori
Thank you.

15:58.86
Seth Macey
There's a unique element.

15:59.59
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

16:00.77
Zach Hodges
yeah

16:00.87
Seth Macey
And Neil, a question for you. but When you've been judging competitions, what are some of the nuanced factors of photos that make them really stand out? I mean, I can go outside and take a spend time in the bush and take a great head-on portrait of a fox, but that might not win a competition just because there's nothing...

16:19.49
Seth Macey
out of the ordinary, extraordinary about it, what are some of the things you look for?

16:25.58
Neil
Yeah, well, you know, I was just looking, I wanted to familiarize myself with VSCO's kind of rules and what they say they're looking for just to get a sense because it is really so subjective. And we talked about this. So they they put down originality, creativity and composition.

16:40.32
Neil
And those are actually really, really good ones because there are so many other rules that people give and what's needed to get a good photograph. And each and every one of those ah rules can be broken and you could still come in first place.

16:54.13
Neil
because it depends what your intention is as a photographer. You know, you may want a part of the photograph to be out of focus.

16:56.43
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

16:59.21
Neil
you You know, you may want this to be blurry. Depends what message or what story you're trying to tell. So um it it it is so, but when you look at those three that they listed, so originality, that's a big one, especially if you're doing landscape photography, a lot of people go to these iconic locations, but you can shoot it in a different way.

17:07.74
Seth Macey
Thank

17:18.89
Neil
And that always blows my mind when I see someone who's gone to a location that's been shot by so many professional photographers. And I myself go there and I would just go there because I had a really high resolution camera. And I would just think, okay, I'm going to take the same shot, but my shot will be able to be,

17:34.81
Neil
enlarged and printed at 10 feet wide. So that'll be the difference. But you got to be, you got to take it further than that. I mean, you could of course get lucky with weather. Lighting is so important with landscape photography.

17:45.49
Neil
So you can hopefully get an incredible sunrise or an incredible sunset, but then it's also vantage point. You know, you can be creative and where you take that from, even just a little bit different, a little bit off from how everyone else takes it can have completely different perspective and and look to it.

17:57.99
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

18:01.70
Neil
You know, just as a rule myself now, when I go and I do landscape photographs, I'll take the shot that I think this is the winner. I'll do it in horizontal, then I'll do it in vertical. And then I'll ah literally walk around.

18:14.62
Neil
and And lot of times I will find a vantage point that offers a really different perspective and an original view of an iconic location. So um creativity is is really important.

18:27.63
Seth Macey
Yeah, it's so hard in this day and age to be original.

18:27.89
Zach Hodges
Nope. nope

18:30.14
Seth Macey
Original ideas are hard to come by. I think that's why when you you come upon one, it stands out so much, whether it's ah being in the right place at the right time or a portrait that you've created in your head.

18:45.06
Seth Macey
it It just hits hard, Zach.

18:47.55
Zach Hodges
Yeah, I just wanted to call attention to a couple of things that Neil said, um because I asked our curators for kind of similar advice and it just it lines up so much. ah And so I kind of want to like underline a few things that were said or either maybe not said, but kind of implied.

18:57.17
Ori
Thank

19:02.85
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

19:03.06
Zach Hodges
And the main one is just that the the technically perfect photo is not necessarily the one that's going to win. I mean, even when Neil was talking about the the previous photo that won, he was talking about the way it moved him, the way it felt, even though the horizon was in the middle. He was describing these sort of emotional connections that he had with it.

19:20.92
Zach Hodges
um and And that's really, think, what it gets to. And it is subjective, but the you know the perfectly framed, perfectly focused, perfectly edited photo is not necessarily the one that's going to win. It's it's something that's interesting, that speaks to the heart, that that moves a person. um And that that could be that it's unusual or that there's something a little off about it, um but that's what makes it good. And So I just want to encourage people to don't just look for the one that you think is technically the the most perfectly executed. Really think about like what's going to move your viewer you know and in there cause an emotion to stir them um because that's, I think, really what this ends up as.

20:01.79
Seth Macey
Right.

20:02.93
Neil
Yeah, like so um there's so many submissions and there's so many talented photographers out there that the winning photograph kind of has to have some type of wow factor.

20:12.89
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

20:12.91
Neil
And even though for this competition, it's all categories, whether it's architecture, wildlife, portrait, landscape, in all those categories, you could get a wow factor.

20:22.94
Neil
Obviously, with wildlife, the animal doing something that's incredible, um landscape,

20:23.65
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

20:28.37
Neil
can just be It's all about the lighting, so you get some type of spectacular, unbelievable um you know lighting that you eat with the sky where the sky just completely lights up or reflects on this or just the shadows.

20:40.97
Neil
Lighting, it plays a huge factor in landscape photography. And even portrait is, a if you're doing Candid, you know you get that incredible portrait photograph that just tells a ah story just in the facial expression, or even if it's planned, just the way it's set up and lighting or how you're creative about it.

20:58.27
Zach Hodges
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

20:59.47
Neil
But in every category, you could definitely get that wow factor. But then people ah have to also understand that You know, it is subjective, so we we have a few judges, but in a lot of these competitions where I had multiple judges, we we often rarely agreed and before discussion on who on which the final winner should be.

21:21.12
Neil
Now, we almost always agreed on the finalists. So if you're gonna pick, let's say 50 photos out of the 50,000 from the last competition, let's say, just to look at everybody agrees that those 50 are are just incredible winning photographs.

21:34.91
Neil
But then it becomes, i think, a little bit more subjective as you narrow down which one you think is going to

21:36.54
Aaron
Yeah.

21:40.76
Zach Hodges
Right.

21:40.83
Neil
ah be that finalist.

21:40.88
Zach Hodges
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

21:42.36
Neil
And that's why it's also a good idea to, I mean, if you want to get some behind, like some tips, look, look at the judges, see what they've judged before, look at their style of photography, because that's how it all started.

21:42.62
Aaron
yeah

21:52.98
Neil
When I, when I was picking the winners for my own competitions, I was kind of thinking, well, it has to be in my gallery, which photograph do I want in my gallery? So it was which one did appeal to to me that I really liked.

22:04.56
Neil
So, yeah.

22:06.13
Seth Macey
Right. Ori, go ahead.

22:07.45
Ori
Yeah, i and I have a question for you, Neil. But before that, we' we've been talking about it's important to have a strong technical excellence, strong composition, attention to detail. But it all again, it it all comes down to the storytelling.

22:21.97
Ori
And something very interesting that Neil said, he said he saw like hundreds and hundreds of the submissions, but then that one image right away caught his attention. So a lot of times it's about what message you want to give where you know that you're going to steer something with the viewer.

22:39.55
Ori
And when you're in a competition, the viewer is the judge. So that that's the that's an important part. And photography is about capting capturing a story in a second. So I think it's important to go back to that philosophical aspect of photograph photography of, OK, what's the story I want to showcase in that second that I'm capturing it?

22:50.86
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

23:00.30
Ori
My question for you, Neil, is, I mean, you're judging so many competitions. It's incredible. do you What do you enjoy more? Do you prefer to look at the images on your own and then um look over them again and again? Or do you like a format like the one that we're having where you're sitting down with Seth and Aaron and you guys are going back and forth and having a very vivid discussion on why each one of you likes the photo. like what as ah As a master judge, what's your preferred method of going over the top finalists?

23:33.33
Neil
Okay, I'll tell you, but I just wanted to say one thing because I might might have misspoken. So yes, there has to be that magic, but technical technically the photo has to be great also. So there's many, you know especially wildlife, incredible wildlife that were just a bit, even a tad out of focus.

23:43.16
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

23:47.85
Neil
And it does have to be tack sharp if your intention is to get tack sharp.

23:51.98
Seth Macey
While I'm out, all my photos are blurry.

23:56.60
Neil
Yeah, so, ah but how I like to do it, um when you're looking at so many photos and you may think this is careless, but it's not instantly just but when I look at a photo, I know if it's got a chance, like just instantly.

24:09.62
Neil
So I'm basically doing, marking off the ones that I know have a chance and and that is done really quickly. ah But then when I have all the ones that go from, you know, then I have from those that I look at and then I eliminate those, examine those a little bit closer.

24:24.69
Neil
and then when I get to, let's say the top 50, then it's a complete, it's not enjoyable at all.

24:30.60
Zach Hodges
this

24:30.70
Neil
it You know, you kind of want to speak to other people and because you're so like involved in it and you want to get someone who just sees it and quickly and and says, what what do they like better and listen to what they say.

24:30.80
Ori
Wow.

24:42.22
Neil
So I'll speak to some of my photography friends as well to get opinions. But yeah, the last part, because you know it's subjective, it's excruciating because you know that it's just an incredible prize. You want to make sure you're giving it to the right person.

24:54.92
Zach Hodges
Yeah, and something that you said, i think is something that other people can do themselves too.

24:54.96
Ori
well

24:58.84
Zach Hodges
Like you're saying that you're having friends look at it, you're getting outside perspective. It's so hard to get out of your own head sometimes and just asking your friends and family even, hey, which of these photos do you think is best? Like that can actually really be helpful.

25:10.58
Neil
took Completely. Like even myself personally, when I come back from a photo trip, the first thing I do is when I have all my final photos is i just, even my family, they know my style. They'll come in and and they'll all say which ones they love best.

25:23.98
Aaron
What's nice is you can have a recalibration of what you think is great or mediocre or... passes the grade, you can you can ah you can so submit as many photos as you want.

25:37.91
Aaron
You can, in your mind, separate them with like, oh, these are my 20 best photos that I've ever produced on any social media app. And these ones are cool. this This is the one my mom wanted and printed out for her living room.

25:50.53
Aaron
And then kind of see how they do. And the more contests you do, I think you can recalibrate where you feel like,

25:55.89
Zach Hodges
Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

25:57.10
Aaron
Oh, like this is a photo that speaks to me, but that was the easiest one I took. I think sometimes as photographers, we interpret how much work it took to get a photo, how much luck it took to get a photo, how much effort, how much time as the photo is good.

26:12.45
Aaron
I know I do as a as a wildlife photographer, I get very attached to that photo took me all summer to get.

26:13.98
Zach Hodges
oh yeah

26:19.55
Aaron
Doesn't matter if it's great or not, but to me, there's a lot of emotional connection to it. So there there is a good separation by by joining these contests, I think, that typical social media, ah Instagram being the main one, you kind of get stuck in your patterns of like,

26:25.94
Seth Macey
Right.

26:38.90
Aaron
Here's another animal portrait. Everyone's going to like it. Here's another animal portrait. Everyone's going to like it. I'm not going to stray. I can't. That's going to mess up my grid. That's going to mess up my what I'm known for.

26:49.77
Aaron
So this is kind of a way to push those boundaries and actually be serious. I feel like about photography versus social media.

26:56.63
Zach Hodges
Right.

26:59.01
Neil
Totally agree. And also just to say quickly, like the the one negative I find with these competitions, because I actually submitted before I even got involved with it, is you you do get discouraged when you don't win or place and you really shouldn't because there are so many that are great, great photographs.

27:13.60
Seth Macey
Thank you.

27:18.37
Neil
But I mean, we're we're tasked with a ah tough, you know, to to pick one photograph. besides being subjective, like we talked about, it's just, it's a difficult thing. We can only choose one grand prize winner, but there's so many that I'm just loving it and enjoying it.

27:33.66
Neil
And I remember that was my first big realization when I did my first competition and they all came in. I was like, well, I'm not as talented as I thought. There are so many talented photographers out there.

27:44.64
Seth Macey
That's so freeing, though, that thought.

27:44.76
Neil
So yeah.

27:44.82
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

27:46.88
Seth Macey
I felt the same way when I was judging, too. It's like, oh, my God, there's so much skill out there.

27:50.34
Zach Hodges
Mm-hmm.

27:54.36
Ori
Thank you.

27:54.45
Neil
Yes.

27:54.50
Seth Macey
That's people that are way better than me. And you can kind of go, they're good.

27:58.71
Aaron
They got it.

27:59.90
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

28:01.57
Seth Macey
you know

28:02.83
Aaron
Yeah.

28:03.02
Seth Macey
it's ah Which is nice because it it sparks humility, right?

28:06.56
Aaron
Yeah.

28:06.66
Seth Macey
Hopefully.

28:07.47
Aaron
It's also, it's also three judges with three upbringings, three lenses. Yeah. ah figuratively that we see the world through three perspectives uh neil you you might love bob dylan and i feel like his voice drives me absolutely nuts but something about it speaks to you right so it's there there is a level of that we're not robots there's there's a part of that when anyone's judging and it is objective you should drive me nuts about english class when they're judging writing or story or composition. It's like, based on what? This is not math.

28:42.53
Aaron
So what are these grades based on? But they're the professionals. And so are Seth, I, and Neil.

28:50.61
Seth Macey
apparently

28:50.74
Ori
I guess.

28:52.21
Neil
and i And I think the photographer knows that they have a great photograph and they should know that their photograph is great. Now, there are tons of photographs photographs that are submitted that are not good.

29:03.50
Neil
And it kind of reminds me of that, you know, the show American Idol, where part of the show's success is showing all the people that

29:07.62
Aaron
Yeah.

29:10.80
Neil
are delusional and think their voices are great. And then you listen and it's kind of comedic. So there are a lot of photographs that get submitted that I'm happy they're submitting. And let's hope that it's a learning process and they're looking at the finalists, they're looking at the winners and they're just going to only get better and better.

29:22.02
Seth Macey
Right.

29:23.11
Aaron
yeah

29:26.87
Neil
But there are tons and tons of photographs that are submitted that are just absolutely amazing. But like we said, sometimes the winner comes down to you're at the right place at the right time.

29:38.62
Neil
There was a little bit of magic involved, and but doesn't mean that all that so many of the photographs aren't absolutely incredible, which they are.

29:46.20
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

29:47.40
Seth Macey
Yeah, I think Aaron's point, just going back to what he was saying, conflating the amount of effort and time involved with the result In other words, I spent so much time.

29:59.01
Seth Macey
This means it's a good photo. That's so hard to get to just stop doing because I think it also we've touched on the topic before Aaron in episodes. It reaffirms that belief that effort and result is a one to one ratio.

30:14.86
Seth Macey
And it's not always the case, right? Sometimes you're just in the right spot, right time, click, and it's an award winning shot. And that's just how it goes. And I think we have to accept that sometimes.

30:23.11
Zach Hodges
Mm-hmm.

30:23.47
Seth Macey
I'm not saying letting that get in the way of effort. Effort is is king always but just sometimes that's how it goes right ory right

30:31.01
Aaron
Yeah. and

30:31.79
Ori
Yeah, and and going back to it, what Neil was saying, that a lot of times you see a lot of entries that are in that amazing, where it comes down to the values of the photo contest. And photo contests are also a motivational tool. So if you're a portrait photographer and you've never done macro photography and you see a macro theme contest, it's the first time you're going to grab a macro lens and go shoot macro outdoor macro photography.

30:57.05
Ori
Well, yeah, maybe your first images aren't going to be contest winners or amazing, but it's a great motivation to go out there and try something new and something you're not comfortable with and will help you expand your photography knowledge in general.

31:05.17
Seth Macey
Yeah.

31:10.27
Seth Macey
<unk> I love the saying, I'm not good yet.

31:14.19
Aaron
Yeah.

31:14.33
Seth Macey
It's one of my favorite things when I'm starting something new and I feel like a complete rookie.

31:14.54
Neil
Yes.

31:17.63
Seth Macey
I'm not good yet. And even at that, like being good doesn't necessarily matter. But if you're striving to constantly improve, maybe that's important to you. Right. But, you know, just the act of doing something, I think is ah is remarkable. Aaron, you were going to say something.

31:32.05
Aaron
I was just gonna say that is what you just said. And what I said prior it's, it's, I just struggled with this the other day for a client, I was Photoshopping a photo and and making sort of ah a holiday themed photo coming up for St. Patrick's day and the concept I had, I liked, but the, the actual execution took me about four hours to edit this one photo.

31:52.61
Zach Hodges
Thank you.

31:52.74
Aaron
Now I,

31:53.89
Seth Macey
because you're billing per hour.

31:56.78
Aaron
no But i i stuck I stuck with it and I was like, God, I hope this idea like really hits. ah When I sent it over, the response I got and I read a lot into the tone was like, LOL, nice.

32:02.68
Seth Macey
Right.

32:09.91
Aaron
And I was like, no, man, you don't.

32:11.64
Seth Macey
No, this is serious.

32:11.74
Ori
Sure.

32:12.78
Seth Macey
Yeah.

32:13.12
Aaron
No, tell me what you think about this photo completely and how awesome it is because I just spent a lot of time doing it.

32:19.52
Seth Macey
Yeah.

32:19.84
Aaron
but But I had to separate like it is a kitschy, jokey kind of photo. And the effort into making it is not necessarily translated sometimes. And I think that that is always important when working with a client or are submitting photos or putting stuff up on any app that.

32:38.24
Aaron
the the The client, the audience doesn't necessarily know what went into this photo happening.

32:44.68
Seth Macey
Yes.

32:45.75
Aaron
They think of it as a one two hundredth of a second moment, you know, and and that's about it.

32:52.96
Seth Macey
Yeah, Zach, I think you had your hand at first.

32:55.60
Zach Hodges
Yeah, I was just going to say, just kind of and agreeing with everything that's being said. I mean, I cannot so tell you how many times, even just today, i post something that um i I almost didn't post it. And it ends up being the thing that a ton of people are responding to. And to me, it was nothing.

33:12.67
Zach Hodges
um Now I'm forgetting the other thing I was going to say. ah Dang it.

33:18.50
Seth Macey
That's okay. We can come back to you.

33:19.00
Zach Hodges
Oh, oh, oh, just that.

33:19.64
Seth Macey
Oh, he's got it.

33:20.80
Zach Hodges
um i've I've talked to, you know, in the course of being at VSCO, I've talked to so many photographers who I just thought were absolutely incredible. um Clearly, they've made it. Clearly, they're so much better than me. And we all struggle with that imposter syndrome.

33:34.58
Zach Hodges
ah From the very best, actually, the people that don't are the people that maybe are a little delusional about their skill. ah Anybody that's really serious about this, and especially like the better you get almost the worse you think you are.

33:48.07
Zach Hodges
um

33:48.04
Seth Macey
Yeah.

33:48.82
Zach Hodges
And even at the highest levels, people are still wondering if if they're good and that you never really escaped that.

33:53.66
Ori
Sure.

33:55.50
Seth Macey
Yeah, for sure. Neil, go ahead.

33:58.30
Neil
Yeah, I was just telling you I was just thinking about something funny. So when i i was commissioned to do that big deal, I got really lucky with Hotel X Toronto and had to do 800 photos in three years and was traveling the world. But after each trip that I got back, ah the hotel had this one person who ended up being a good friend of mine. But before we were friends, he would have to say yay or nay to each photo. So I would come back with about 30 photos and you know Anytime he would say no, it was that's a big problem.

34:27.78
Seth Macey
Is it like Gladiator where the thumb is up or the thumb is down?

34:27.92
Neil
and

34:30.61
Neil
yeah and he would yeah did a lot of these though.

34:33.64
Seth Macey
The sideways?

34:34.73
Neil
The sideways ones. But anyways, the funny, the running joke was like the ones that took more of an effort, whether they were better photos or not, were the ones that are I hoped got in because they were so time consuming.

34:44.81
Aaron
Yeah.

34:46.62
Neil
And I think every story was basically an argument that when he would say no, with me telling him the effort as if the effort would change his mind, which he was way like, I don't care if you did a marathon.

34:46.57
Seth Macey
course.

34:53.81
Seth Macey
Right.

34:54.15
Zach Hodges
Yes.

34:56.88
Neil
This photo is not going up in the hotel. And it' was just a funny argument every single time. So effort, as although it means a lot to us and it actually, i think, impacts the way we view our own photographs because we remember the story.

35:01.46
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

35:09.38
Neil
And I don't know about you guys, by the way, but with me, I don't have a great memory, but for some reason, I remember every setup of like almost every photo I've ever taken. So when I look at all my photos, I remember the story to researching to to getting it to waiting in the dark for the sunrise.

35:19.68
Seth Macey
Yeah.

35:22.04
Zach Hodges
yes

35:26.54
Neil
It's uncanny. I don't remember anything else. i don't remember anyone's names, but I remember for some reason, I guess we're just concentrating so hard on trying to get that great image that that our mind just remembers the whole before.

35:31.55
Ori
you

35:37.74
Seth Macey
yeah

35:37.92
Aaron
Yeah.

35:38.23
Neil
Yeah. yeah

35:39.23
Seth Macey
I think what's important is in that moment, having the, I guess, prompting yourself somehow, somewhere, or having the awareness to say, nobody can take what you've just described away from me, regardless of what the result or the reception ends up being.

35:52.30
Neil
Right.

35:53.19
Seth Macey
right? And just detaching from this belief that I think we all inherently have been told to believe that effort deserves a proportional amount of reward. It's just not the case. And it's a hard realization.

36:04.23
Seth Macey
So if you can get to a place where you're in that moment of setup and you've spent all this money and you've flown all this way and it's cold and you're in the dark, that's for you.

36:04.81
Aaron
yeah

36:10.97
Seth Macey
That's part of your process. You're an artist, you're doing the thing. And like, that's just, that's a win on a personal level and just kind of

36:17.86
Ori
That's why photography is therapy for a lot of people.

36:20.98
Seth Macey
For sure.

36:21.07
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

36:21.77
Seth Macey
Exactly.

36:21.96
Neil
Yes.

36:23.31
Seth Macey
Exactly. ah Well, I want to...

36:25.78
Aaron
I have a thought, if you don't mind, Seth.

36:27.17
Seth Macey
Okay. No, I don't mind.

36:29.98
Aaron
Just in talking, I'm reflecting on our audience, who I think for the most part, the people that are most excited about our show are photographers that are starting off and have got the bug. They're really into it. ah They're listening to a photography podcast.

36:45.03
Aaron
ah they theyre They're trying to make it in some sort of way, whatever that may be. And reflecting on my... I think six years, just about five years, six years with social media and ah the comfort.

36:53.09
Neil
Thank you.

36:59.36
Aaron
You get into a comfortable zone of what ah for many of us Instagram is ah where it's, all right, need to post at a certain time. i need my captions.

37:10.10
Aaron
I need my, this, I get my attention. i get my focus. There comes a point where I feel like the, the urge or the desire to grow ah in terms of your craft sort of levels out because you, you figured out the formula that's going to work for you. And that's that.

37:29.35
Aaron
So your photography doesn't give you, there's no real need to do do better. There's no real need to compare yourself to a different set of cohort. There's no real need to open up your stuff to a new audience.

37:47.13
Aaron
It's all right in front of you. And everyone's saying great photo, nice job, fire emojis, keep it coming.

37:52.64
Seth Macey
you

37:54.86
Aaron
200 likes, let's have lunch and do it again tomorrow, right? So what i'm what I'm hearing here is there's there's other options for people that are really into photography to to leapfrog themselves, leapfrog their yesterday's photographer, get into contests, challenge yourselves, look at other people that are winning actual contests.

38:09.58
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

38:18.94
Aaron
There's none of that here. it's just It's just compliments and move on.

38:23.57
Zach Hodges
yeah

38:23.61
Seth Macey
Right. Yeah.

38:24.07
Aaron
The next day is gone. It's like a clean slate. So the ability to have these platforms that are really photography based and, and having actual contests with prizes and like put yourself out there and join, join the big leagues in a sense, like it's a good training ground on Instagram to see what's up.

38:26.88
Neil
Thank you.

38:43.08
Seth Macey
yeah

38:43.33
Zach Hodges
Oh, yeah.

38:46.95
Aaron
But if you are serious about photography, you're, there There are different avenues to try to make it. And I think we have a lot of this illusion on that other app that like, if I get enough followers, someone's going to finally reach out to me and call me and blah, blah, blah, blah.

39:01.21
Zach Hodges
oh yeah

39:03.09
Aaron
But I think we all have to be self-made to a certain percent and make it ourselves. And there's a really good way to push yourselves with some of these different contests and and branching out and not just focusing on one echo chamber of and any certain one app. like You could say that for anything, I guess, if you're just putting all your basket all your eggs in one basket.

39:28.12
Seth Macey
Yeah. And Aaron, you've beautifully set up the the last third of our conversation, which is thank you very much.

39:33.10
Aaron
You're welcome. Yeah.

39:34.87
Seth Macey
You are a pro at this. Wow.

39:36.44
Aaron
yeah

39:36.98
Seth Macey
Wow. Pat yourself on the back, big guy. This why we're excited to talk to Ori and Zach here. Zach from VSCO, Ori from Viewbug. I mean, how does, how do your companies play into what Aaron's just described?

39:48.74
Seth Macey
You know, ultimately helping photographers leapfrog themselves, get better at their own pace and just get out of that groundhog day that Aaron described of post 24 hours, post 24 hours, check the likes and actually build their craft.

40:00.30
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

40:04.70
Aaron
Yeah.

40:06.29
Seth Macey
Zach, you want to start us off?

40:07.63
Zach Hodges
Yeah, sure. i was I was going to ask if Ori wanted to go. um Yeah, I think the thing that's hard to remember or hard to realize, um you know Instagram is a very powerful tool and it it started being very photo focused. And I think we still think of it that way, but it's really not that anymore. um And it's it's very powerful. i would I personally kind of view it as a advertising platform, as a branding platform.

40:35.51
Zach Hodges
I think that's why we all feel such a pressure to be a certain way on there is it's really not about photography anymore. It's about presenting yourself to the world for opportunities, for branding and the the kinds of things that are rewarded for you to do and the kind of things that are fed to you are are the kinds of things that, you know, a marketer would would care about.

40:56.41
Zach Hodges
um And so that's why video and stories and all all these things that are less about photography that I think, you know we hear photographers kind of bemoaning. Whereas ah platforms like VSCO, like, oh my gosh, the name is escaping me.

41:13.53
Zach Hodges
ah um My brain just totally went went off.

41:17.72
Seth Macey
That's okay.

41:17.78
Ori
You better

41:17.85
Zach Hodges
Ori, what?

41:18.08
Seth Macey
talking about Talk about your brand. Yeah.

41:19.84
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

41:19.90
Seth Macey
Viewbug, the other guy down there.

41:20.57
Ori
you might i be thinking about Viewbook.

41:20.85
Zach Hodges
Viewbug. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that's what platforms like VSCO and Viewbug, I think can be really interesting is where it is about the photography.

41:25.94
Seth Macey
Yeah.

41:29.17
Zach Hodges
it is about you finding inspiration, about you experimenting, about, ah you know, you discovering your voice and and and trying things.

41:30.59
Aaron
right.

41:37.91
Zach Hodges
it's You're not fed anything other than good photography and ah You know, you're not rewarded for anything other than, you know, being interesting and original and trying things.

41:49.26
Zach Hodges
And it's really a ah safer space to find other photographers to connect with them to you know, level yourself up and and grow in that way. I think a lot of people um forget that, you know, plate places like VSCO are not, you know, we're known for our filters, but there's a huge community um that is really, really powerful for photographers and kind of a safe place for photography that a lot of people, I think, miss.

42:15.14
Seth Macey
Yeah, like we'll hear more about those things, but I want to hear what Ori's got to say, too.

42:15.94
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

42:16.20
Ori
Yeah.

42:18.46
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

42:18.70
Ori
and Along the same lines as a what you were saying, Saki, I think when you join a photo-centric community, right away you feel there's a different vibe to it.

42:29.20
Ori
There's a more artistic feeling to it. yeah You don't see it. I'm talking to members, the frustration of having to post once a day, as Aaron was saying. I need to but do my daily post at certain time.

42:38.02
Zach Hodges
Yeah. Yeah.

42:41.24
Ori
There's no algorithm frustrations. It's very different when you're trying to beat that algorithm to see on Instagram if your image is going to get more likes versus us knowing that you're in a curated community that's photo-centric, that's all about the quality of the image.

42:48.45
Zach Hodges
yeah

42:57.57
Ori
and And just knowing that you'll see right away that when you join these communities, there's a different energy and feeling to it and camaraderie about the the art of photography.

43:07.10
Zach Hodges
yeah

43:08.64
Seth Macey
Right.

43:09.86
Ori
So, and and as Zach was saying, there's also, a we both offer more tools to the photographers, like portfolio websites, editing tools, et cetera, that can help photographers take their and craft and their enthusiasm to the next level, pretty much.

43:19.17
Seth Macey
right

43:19.64
Zach Hodges
Yeah. Yeah.

43:29.19
Seth Macey
Yeah, I think what you both are speaking to is increasing signal and cutting out noise, right?

43:29.30
Zach Hodges
yeah

43:34.74
Aaron
Yeah.

43:34.94
Seth Macey
this is These are some assets you can use. Here's some resources you can use that actually matter in the in the grand scheme of things or in, I guess,

43:45.78
Ori
Thank

43:46.24
Seth Macey
promoting your skill set or allowing you to you know branch out and getting rid of cat memes. And here's another guy falling down the stairs sent from your buddy and your DMs, right?

43:56.05
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

43:57.69
Seth Macey
Which is all, there's a place for that. I understand. I understand. I understand there's lots but lots of photographers who brilliantly utilize the the big platform Instagram. But I think that your two platforms, Vuebug and VSCO,

44:10.80
Seth Macey
are cutting out noise and allowing people who want to focus on just photography. It's giving them a place to do that.

44:18.94
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

44:18.91
Seth Macey
I was laughing Zach, when you said, you know, we're known for our filters because in high school, all the girls in my high school had VSCO. was like, check out my VSCO. It's like there.

44:27.20
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

44:27.18
Seth Macey
And I was like, and when I, when we scheduled our meeting about this, setting up this podcast, I was on VSCO's website. I was like, is this is this the same company?

44:34.52
Zach Hodges
Yeah. Yeah.

44:35.11
Seth Macey
It's changed so much. And I was ah very impressed.

44:37.49
Zach Hodges
yeah

44:39.65
Seth Macey
I mean, um what's the, how has that, i don't know how long you've been with the company, but how has kind of ah it gone from, here's some awesome filters. You still have those to here's how we're helping photographers make it.

44:48.73
Zach Hodges
mean yeah

44:53.49
Seth Macey
And you know, what is make it from Visco's point of view?

44:56.73
Zach Hodges
Yeah, yeah. ah yeah mean I've been with the company since it started. I was part of the team that that got the whole thing going. And you it's funny you mentioned the filters.

45:03.13
Seth Macey
Nice.

45:04.31
Zach Hodges
I mean, that that was my thing, um is I've been the the one kind of in the background making the filters for so long.

45:10.01
Seth Macey
Really? You're the guy. You're the filter guy.

45:11.43
Aaron
You're the filter guy?

45:11.63
Zach Hodges
I'm the guy, yeah. i mean, it's a team effort. Like, it's definitely, i have a lot of help.

45:15.53
Seth Macey
Here's our YouTube caption.

45:17.09
Aaron
Yeah.

45:17.45
Zach Hodges
um I have definitely have a lot of help, but ah most, i thought I don't think there's a filter that I haven't at least had a hand in.

45:20.06
Seth Macey
Right.

45:24.24
Aaron
Did you make the Stanley Cups too for the VSCO girls?

45:24.26
Zach Hodges
ah

45:24.41
Seth Macey
Wow.

45:28.62
Aaron
No?

45:28.91
Zach Hodges
Uh, no, I mean, uh, well, I think I'd get myself in some hot water with the the whole lead controversy and all that stuff.

45:35.08
Aaron
Yeah, yeah.

45:36.35
Zach Hodges
Uh, no, the VSCO girl thing was funny. It really had nothing to do with us. It was a fashion trend from tech talk, I believe.

45:41.76
Seth Macey
Really?

45:43.40
Zach Hodges
Um, And it it kind of had our name attached to it. and it was helpful in a way because we became a household name.

45:48.31
Aaron
hu

45:49.37
Zach Hodges
a lot more people knew how to pronounce us. you know it was one of the That's one of the main things. you know how Is it VSCO? VSCO? VSCO? So least everybody knows how to say our name now. um

45:59.20
Aaron
Yeah.

45:59.80
Zach Hodges
But the... ah the The VSCO girl thing was really not related to VSCO, the company, hardly at all. We had a lot of a wonderful influx of of you know young people, which was amazing.

46:12.90
Zach Hodges
um

46:13.01
Aaron
That's cool.

46:13.58
Zach Hodges
But we've really been trying to become a place where photographers can... level up their work, their business, their, obviously, you know, you asked about making it.

46:23.14
Neil
you

46:26.61
Zach Hodges
Like, there's kind of a double meaning there where you can make your images.

46:26.95
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

46:29.91
Zach Hodges
That's obviously a big part of what we do. I love that with our filters and stuff. But then also with things like a website, blog, just finding inspiration and community, you know, just being able to start to be able to run your business from VSCO as well is really kind of our vision is to be, you know, not just a place for you to make your images, but place for you to make your career.

46:54.34
Zach Hodges
So that's kind of, I guess, in a quick nutshell.

46:57.27
Seth Macey
Yeah, and consolidating it, it sounds like, in one place.

47:00.13
Zach Hodges
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we've always had a big vision for wanting to help photographers. um the The actual community that we have goes all the way back to I'm going to say the date wrong, but probably like 2013 or 14.

47:13.69
Zach Hodges
Like it's been a around for a long time.

47:14.47
Seth Macey
um

47:16.18
Aaron
Yeah.

47:16.18
Zach Hodges
um So we've been really dedicated to this and, you know, with the curation and the um chronological feed and just real dedication to quality and attribution.

47:26.59
Seth Macey
Everyone's ears perked up at that chronological feed.

47:29.12
Aaron
yeah

47:29.31
Zach Hodges
yeah

47:31.79
Zach Hodges
Yeah, and I mean, i I myself have gotten, I think, better as a photographer just by being exposed to so much great work from so many other people. um And I can know that if I follow them, I'm going to see what what they do, even if I have to scroll like it's there.

47:44.00
Seth Macey
Yeah.

47:46.33
Zach Hodges
I really appreciate that.

47:48.08
Seth Macey
Yeah, it's just natural immersion, right?

47:50.02
Zach Hodges
Yeah, yeah.

47:50.84
Neil
Thank you.

47:50.89
Seth Macey
ah Ori, how do you feel about this? How's your platform and all the things it offers? What's the goal? What are you trying to ultimately help people on the platform achieve in in a similar sense to...

48:03.65
Ori
what What we're trying to do is pretty much take that step from being on Instagram every day to take it to the next level, to say, okay, I want to graduate to be my more enthusiast photographer, to learn more about my craft. where Our mission is pretty much to empower photograph photographers to...

48:22.28
Ori
to take it to the next day level. we we If you're thinking about building a portfolio website on selling your images for the first time and ah putting them out there for display, if you're trying, as Aqua was saying also, to edit your images and play with different presets or just go out and get some money from some gigs that you're starting to shoot, we provide those tools for photograph photographers. So it's all about having a community where you can feel free to share your images, to know that they're safe, where you can join contests and know that there's no issues with copyright and nobody's going to steal your images.

48:58.43
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

48:58.78
Ori
um That was one of the main reasons why we started Viewbook, because I was sending photos to contests and they were getting stolen. and the rights of images were getting gra and i I said, okay, we need to solve this. Let's build a community that is safe, that is fun, and the contests are the backbone of the community. So knowing that you're in a place where your images are safe and you can particip participate in all of these different contests, that was one of the main inspirations behind it.

49:27.38
Seth Macey
Awesome. I'm curious to know with the people or the photographers you've chosen to partner with on I don't know, marketing campaigns or just in general feature their photos or i don't know, do anything with them collaboratively. What has stood out about them as a creator or on a personal level that's made you want to work with them?

49:48.94
Neil
Thank you.

49:48.96
Seth Macey
Zach, you able to go first? Are you able to answer this?

49:52.41
Zach Hodges
Let me make sure I'm understanding what you're asking. Yeah.

49:54.34
Seth Macey
Well, yeah, i'll I'll do better. i think a lot of people are interested in how they can get involved working with iconic brand names.

50:05.41
Seth Macey
How can I you know work with these companies some way, somehow, just in that vague sense?

50:10.79
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

50:12.28
Seth Macey
And I'm curious to know with some of the photographers that you've partnered with for campaigns or anything of that nature, what has stood out about them as a creator or on a personal level?

50:15.95
Zach Hodges
oh yeah

50:23.42
Zach Hodges
Yeah. ah So I've actually talked to several photographers recently, just kind of in an interview format about this very question. you know, how do you get how do you get these jobs? How do you get this exposure?

50:34.11
Zach Hodges
a lot of it comes down to, you know, networking, ah just business tactics, basically, of like marketing yourself, getting yourself out there. Some will go as far. Actually, this is a pretty common thing to. um create a like create work specifically to try to attract a specific client.

50:54.08
Zach Hodges
So if somebody is trying, you know if their dream is to work with J.Crew, they'll look at the kind of work that they're doing and go hire a model and go to a, you know a location and make work like that and so send it to them and basically say, hey, I would love to work with you.

51:08.57
Zach Hodges
um And that actually can work. um And then things like these photo contests, I mean, through VSCO, we have brand challenges that are ah sort of similar, but it's a way for brands to license images that are submitted in the same way through hashtags.

51:23.26
Zach Hodges
um that can be a way to to get work um seen and and licensed and you know kind of actually get some work through that way. um But yeah, a lot of it is people that are just hustling.

51:35.13
Zach Hodges
They're they're working hard and you know they're always looking for their next job, connecting with people, just good business tactics, marketing, getting themselves out there, making smart kind of moves.

51:46.69
Zach Hodges
um And it's a little bit different story for every one of them, but ah it's it's a lot it's a lot of work.

51:50.24
Seth Macey
Yeah, absolutely. Ori?

51:54.57
Ori
Yeah, something that I think it's important to say, a lot of people say, I have a great idea. I would love to do this with ViewBlog or I would love to organize a trip or there's so many awesome ideas, but there's always a hesitation of reaching out or, well, nobody's going to listen to me.

52:09.48
Zach Hodges
you.

52:11.45
Ori
I'm going to send an email and it's going to go to an empty place. I encourage everyone, if you have a cool idea, i viewed and if you know of an initiative, that we we just launched a launch that contest where the winners are going to be showcased in a gallery in Verona, italyle in Italy.

52:27.95
Ori
And the gallery owner emailed to me and he told me, Ori, I've been trying to email you for so many years, but I was hesitant. I wasn't sure you were going to just reply to my email.

52:39.47
Ori
So I say, if you have something cool, email us, email us. and And great ideas go a long way. So um a lot of people have a lot of creativity on some initiatives. they were A lot of initiatives that we've done their ideas from other photograph photographers. We've we've done a and a photography expedition in Iceland and that wasn't our idea. It was the actual photographers who led the expedition who came up with the idea. So just take the first step.

53:09.99
Ori
put the word out, email, reach out to people and you'll be surprised on how taking that first step can go a long way.

53:13.32
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

53:18.67
Seth Macey
Right. Neil? neale

53:20.70
Neil
Yeah, I mean, to Ori's credit, that's exactly how I met him. I had the idea to do a competition. i already had a great trip in the back pocket and just needed great exposure. Reached out to him, complete cold car cold call, and he called me back, and the rest is history.

53:39.44
Seth Macey
Yeah, I think Aaron is a big proponent of this. He says this all the time on our podcast that if you go to a business or a company or a brand with an excellent idea and you can articulate it well to a point where all they have to do is say yes or no.

53:55.08
Seth Macey
You've kind of done your job. I mean, ideally you want them to say yes. You want the idea to be so good. But I mean, sometimes it's not the right time. There's no budget. Things happen.

54:01.79
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

54:02.05
Seth Macey
But having a good idea is the is the foundation.

54:04.08
Zach Hodges
Yeah, yeah.

54:05.45
Seth Macey
I think we can get lost in, oh, this email 203 words. It needs to be under 200. Or I got an email during, I can't email on the weekend. I mean, sometimes those nuanced things can matter when trying to reach people who are the head of companies or departments at companies.

54:21.83
Seth Macey
But I think there's, it's an illusion that these individuals, you know, people like yourself, Zach and Ori that are you're not unreachable, right?

54:29.89
Zach Hodges
yeah yeah

54:30.84
Seth Macey
I think it's just a self-imposed barrier often.

54:34.28
Zach Hodges
Well, and if I could say, like I have people messaging me, and when I have talked to these successful photographers, I'm shocked sometimes at the stories that they tell of just the boldness of reaching out to you know an ah art director at a huge company or walking right up to somebody or whatever. like But the you know you got to do that.

54:51.86
Zach Hodges
You got to just put yourself out there.

54:52.55
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

54:53.34
Zach Hodges
And the worst thing that they can say is no. And sometimes it's like two years later, they remember you for something else that they need. Or you know you never know. And ah just keep at it. and you know Like with this contest, like don't let this be the only contest you submit to.

55:06.40
Zach Hodges
like Keep going.

55:08.21
Seth Macey
Yeah, I guess fortune favors the bold.

55:10.57
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

55:10.74
Ori
Well said.

55:11.90
Aaron
Yeah, and risk takers and and have a, we always say it, ideas and narratives are the ah the currency in this business.

55:19.26
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

55:19.29
Aaron
You have to go in with something. You cannot just ask, love to get paid to take photos with you like that, that that's one in a million.

55:26.43
Zach Hodges
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

55:29.59
Aaron
Right.

55:29.66
Zach Hodges
yeah

55:29.83
Aaron
But your idea, one of a million, your idea is one in a million. So that's that's the point. You have to go with a narrative. I have this great idea. I think it would really work. Here's my proof of concept. Here's my work.

55:42.02
Aaron
Here's the intro to it. Let's let's make this happen. Let's get on a call. See if we can make this happen. you're You're going to get a lot more success versus a blanket like, would you want to work with me?

55:54.71
Aaron
You know.

55:55.14
Seth Macey
Maybe sometime we should do something. Maybe.

55:56.96
Aaron
We should do something. It is dating, right? i mean, it can be.

56:00.89
Seth Macey
It can be.

56:02.78
Zach Hodges
Yeah.

56:03.28
Aaron
i want to take you here. i i love this meal. It's amazing. I would love to share this moment with you.

56:09.83
Seth Macey
You want to go?

56:09.91
Aaron
OK.

56:10.35
Seth Macey
Yes or no?

56:11.53
Aaron
versus would you want to maybe go out sometime? i don't know. The person's be like, I don't know. so why

56:17.77
Seth Macey
Right. Right. No, totally. Well, everyone, it's been awesome chatting with you. Anybody else have anything else to say that they wanted to add before we kind of remind people of how they can submit? I think we've done a good job of why you should comb through your work, why you should submit to contests, why you should, you know, branch out from the tunnel vision that Instagram ah provides that you may not even realize you're stuck in, ah you know, why you should shoot your shot.

56:43.62
Seth Macey
Anything else?

56:43.81
Zach Hodges
Thank you.

56:45.28
Neil
Yeah, I would just say that, you know, I think I was speaking to you guys earlier about this. Whenever I see or hear about these competitions that have some kind of crazy prize, and I really do think this this grand prize is exceptional,

56:57.80
Neil
It just always just seems like unattainable, impossible. But I myself know because I'm going on these trips with a lot of the winners and I've seen the winners go on a lot of these trips.

57:08.55
Neil
It happens. Someone is going to. It's not as if, you know, there's a chance that someone might get this trip. Someone who sub submits is going on this great experience and it is, I believe, a life changing experience.

57:20.18
Neil
So, you know, there's no cost. Might as well take your best photos and submit and see what happens if someone's going on that trip.

57:24.98
Aaron
Yeah.

57:27.34
Aaron
Absolutely.

57:28.10
Seth Macey
Yeah. And just to recap, it's any genre, as many as you want competitions open till March 31st.

57:35.99
Seth Macey
And you can submit on both of your platforms. Let's go and view book, you book, correct?

57:38.53
Zach Hodges
March 30th. Yeah.

57:39.66
Seth Macey
March there days in March?

57:39.76
Zach Hodges
There is.

57:39.95
Aaron
30th, I was going to say.

57:41.26
Zach Hodges
Yeah, that's

57:45.84
Ori
I think so.

57:46.66
Aaron
I don't know. That's one thing I will never learn.

57:48.05
Zach Hodges
weird.

57:48.77
Aaron
There

57:48.72
Seth Macey
There is. That's what got me all kerfuffled.

57:50.79
Zach Hodges
yeah

57:51.36
Seth Macey
Okay, but it's the 30th, everyone, March th thirty All the details will be in the episode description.

57:51.48
Zach Hodges
that's weird

57:53.63
Aaron
it is.

57:55.80
Seth Macey
Make sure you check that out. Make sure you check out both those platforms, VSCO and Vuebug, if they their descriptions of them spoke to you and you kind of want to maybe cut out some noise, focus more on signal.

58:07.35
Seth Macey
Guys, it's been awesome talking with you. yeah

58:09.03
Ori
Thanks for having us.

58:10.38
Zach Hodges
Thank you.

58:10.51
Neil
Thank you.

58:11.33
Aaron
Take care.