4 More Things That Fuelled Our Photography Success (Pt. 2)

This episode is part two of our two-part series, where we continue exploring the lessons that have defined our photography journeys. We dig into the art of building a unique editing style through fearless experimentation, the importance of harnessing early passion to create momentum, and the value of protecting your mental space with practical tools like managing notifications. We also reflect on the power of surrounding yourself with inspiring individuals who challenge and elevate your craft. With personal stories, actionable insights, and plenty of inspiration, this conversation is perfect for photographers and creatives ready to take their journey to the next level.

Expect to Learn:

• How to develop a unique editing style by letting your preferences guide your work
• the importance of harnessing early passion to build momentum and take on ambitious projects
• Practical ways to manage mental space, like limiting notifications, to enhance focus and creativity
• Why focusing on the process rather than outcomes will automatically bring you success
• the value of surrounding yourself with individuals who elevate your craft and mindset.

Sponsor:

Thanks to Tamron for being our lead sponsor this episode! Explore the 28-75mm f/2.8 G2 lens with $200 USD & $300 CAD off and deals on many more lenses during their for your Sony E-mount, Nikon Z, and FUJIFILM X-mount mirrorless cameras by clicking www.tamron-americas.com or by visiting your local Tamron authorized dealer. The Spring Savings event is on now until April 20th, 2025. 

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography

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Transcript

00:00:07.81
Seth Macey
Part two.

00:00:11.66
Aaron
Part do.

00:00:14.56
Seth Macey
Part two, where we go over Some of the successes that we've had in the self-evaluation format, things we've done in the past that we've accredited to some of our minor and major successes as photographers. We did part one last week. If you missed that, go check that out. and we're going to do part two today.

00:00:34.09
Aaron
Part two.

00:00:34.91
Seth Macey
so this is going an entirely anecdote and from our own experience, which hopefully is very useful. so So shall we begin?

00:00:44.05
Aaron
Let's do it.

00:00:45.74
Seth Macey
Okay. You want to go first? Me go first?

00:00:47.09
Aaron
No. No, you you can go first today.

00:00:49.64
Seth Macey
You go first. Why is this because you went first yesterday?

00:00:51.60
Aaron
Yeah.

00:00:52.32
Seth Macey
Yeah, you made it clear you like being the third or fourth guy in line. See what you're working with.

00:00:55.87
Aaron
Yeah. Clean up. Clean up batter.

00:01:00.43
Seth Macey
That's funny. Okay. Well, I'm going to go with something kind of technical off the start. Something that i feel like was very helpful early on when I, it's still kind of helpful ah with my photography was developing my own editing style in a way that was not comparative to

00:01:26.74
Seth Macey
things that I was seeing online on Instagram, at least not in a conscious way. What I mean by that was ah wasn't trying to edit exactly like other people. I was satisfied with an edit and still am to this day when i simply like it, to put that quite to put that quite succinctly.

00:01:47.51
Seth Macey
ah Very early on, I just played around with sliders and the different features in Lightroom. And if it was good enough for me or I was happy with it, to me, that was considered a good edit. And then with enough repetitions over time...

00:02:03.23
Seth Macey
Naturally, a certain look or style was developed. Now, I'm not saying that you shouldn't consume content or great photography. i think what I was doing was absorbing that and just simply by being immersed in it and by following people that I really enjoyed their imagery.

00:02:24.02
Seth Macey
And then allowing that to naturally flow out within the editing programs as opposed to trying to exactly emulate what I had saw in a conscious way.

00:02:35.53
Seth Macey
And it made editing a lot more fun because there was no standard other than my own. It allowed me to experiment with a lot of crazy styles that often pushed, I think, certain looks too far, whether that be saturation or clarity, which ah feel like allows you to, you don't know when you've taken something too far until you have, right?

00:02:58.85
Aaron
Yeah.

00:02:59.07
Seth Macey
You sit on it and look at it. And i bring this up because it's just such a common, ah feel like theme. How do I develop my style? How do I develop my own style? And I think people overcomplicate it.

00:03:12.14
Seth Macey
consume stuff. I mean, don't, don't make it your whole day. Just relax. Let it sit in your brain. Follow people whose photography you really love and then just do your reps, edit, edit, edit, shoot, edit, edit, edit. And if you like how it looks, that's enough. That's, that is, that is your, that's your style.

00:03:32.49
Seth Macey
So why I bring this up is because I feel like it saved me a lot of frustration from not

00:03:40.82
Seth Macey
Yet not desiring an exact look and struggling to achieve it. I was just kind of happy to do what I was doing. And I feel like that allowed me to continue and not dip out on, on photography early.

00:04:00.32
Aaron
That's interesting. It's interesting also because I took a completely different approach.

00:04:05.02
Seth Macey
Okay. We'll share.

00:04:08.27
Aaron
Well, I'll say what I did and then we can compare maybe pros and cons. I did the opposite where i would ab B two photos. I would screenshot something quickly, B it, and try to understand or replicate what I was seeing from...

00:04:29.33
Aaron
the other photo without knowing how it was edited trying to get those same results and trying to figure out oh this looks like the orton effect what's the orton effect let me try to do that and learn that toolkit and figure if i like that if i love it i love it for a while it's cool it's new but it's gonna fade a little bit but now i know how to apply it if i want to ah i really

00:04:33.70
Seth Macey
right.

00:04:56.45
Aaron
was into like this blue, dark, moody thing in the beginning. And that's because I was copying that look or trying to get this really cool, dark, blue, uh, aesthetic that I was attracted to for whatever reason at the time.

00:05:16.73
Aaron
And then there's these other moments where you see, uh, Paige Tingy. don't know how to say her last name. Tingy. I think she's a really cool editor and she has a wonderful tutorial.

00:05:29.07
Aaron
It's very long, like very in depth, her whole process through a photo. And I would watch that over and over again and try to incorporate those techniques and see if I could grab something.

00:05:40.29
Aaron
So I was totally copying in the beginning to learn. And I thought of it as like a cover song, right? Like, want to I want to play this i want try to play this song like ah Dave Matthews plays this song.

00:05:55.01
Seth Macey
Right.

00:05:55.52
Aaron
Let's see if I can do it. Maybe it's my own sort of take on it. It's close. It's not quite there, but I do really like that. And maybe i'm going to keep these pieces of that. So that's kind of how I developed my style, whatever that is today.

00:06:09.99
Aaron
Now I'm more like how you describe now um'm yeah Now I'm not thinking of a certain, so the highlight has to be at 42.

00:06:12.93
Seth Macey
right

00:06:17.64
Aaron
I don't press preset to, you know, Aaron Maness style. the I don't just press that and go. Every photo I've always liked editing as its own photo and getting to a place, whatever the mood may be.

00:06:33.82
Seth Macey
Yeah, you're talking about reverse engineering something you like so that you can learn the sliders as a kind of translation and and understanding their function, which I did do. i think my point is also that I wasn't making that the substance of my editing learning.

00:06:49.24
Aaron
Right.

00:06:50.24
Seth Macey
Because, i mean, like if you listen to enough Green Day songs, you're going to sound like Green Day.

00:06:50.65
Aaron
yeah

00:06:57.74
Aaron
Yeah.

00:06:58.65
Seth Macey
To an extent, right? So i was I was very conscious of doing that. When there was something that really stood out to me, I was like, okay, I'm going to, or something new that i recognized in an image. i'd be like, I wonder how they got that. That's when I would do the reverse engineer, like you were saying.

00:07:11.62
Seth Macey
But for the most part, I was just literally touching every single slider. i would move one and then I would pick something else and move it. And I would see how they would interplay together.

00:07:22.41
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:07:23.66
Seth Macey
And just over time, I feel like it's a language. It's ah being immersed in all the the interconnections of how moving one slider affects another. Because I think think people can tend to like think of it very, each slider is like its own thing, but you change so many other things when you when you move one slider, right?

00:07:42.53
Aaron
yeah yeah

00:07:43.43
Seth Macey
Yeah. So yeah, I was doing the reverse engineering thing when something really stood out or there was a technique that I had never seen. But for the most part, I was just building my own style from the start by messing around until ah I got to a look that I liked. And I felt that that took a lot of pressure off of trying to be a certain way and just letting a style come naturally and accepting that this is this is a time thing.

00:08:10.95
Aaron
Yeah, makes total sense. I don't think either is necessarily right or wrong. um There's a ton of tutorials on ways to edit, but if you just copy that method, you're not going to have anything may be new maybe Yeah.

00:08:23.42
Seth Macey
Yeah, I really don't think there's a right way to edit. I think there's good looking or aesthetically pleasing photos and non-aesthetically pleasing photos. And I think that there's so many ways to fit into either of those categories.

00:08:35.71
Seth Macey
Sure, there's some general rules, but ah i agree. I don't think that this this is how you should edit. How you should edit is what the steps you need to take to get a photo that you like and that's well received if that is important to you.

00:08:49.54
Aaron
Yeah, I think the common ground for both ah ways that we did this was repetitions. trying Trying a lot of different things a lot of different times.

00:08:59.61
Aaron
and Yeah, don't know.

00:09:00.24
Seth Macey
And not being afraid to post it. Being afraid to, yeah, not being afraid to post stuff early on, right?

00:09:07.79
Aaron
Yeah.

00:09:08.35
Seth Macey
That's such a good feeling when you think it's amazing and then four years later you you go, wow, I was poopy compared to what I can do now. But that's okay because it's the best you could do at the time.

00:09:18.04
Aaron
Yeah, scroll scroll back on our Instagrams. It's it's funny to change.

00:09:22.28
Seth Macey
It is great for me.

00:09:23.30
Aaron
Especially, i mean, I can't say especially, but I just know my own work may be better, but the very beginning stuff is o not bad, i guess.

00:09:34.52
Aaron
Kind of, but different.

00:09:36.11
Seth Macey
Take it too far, though. You know what I mean? Because you can pull back from there.

00:09:38.26
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:09:40.29
Seth Macey
I like that idea. I mean, what's what's the worst that's going to happen? Editing police aren't going to come to your door. um I found it over the years, too.

00:09:46.80
Aaron
Yeah.

00:09:48.68
Seth Macey
I don't know if you if you feel this way, too, though, because you mentioned you had your very misty blue, ethereal looking stuff. I don't even know how you would describe but my earlier stuff. But I've noticed that I've pulled back a lot to a more natural look where now almost the style is less is more.

00:10:05.00
Seth Macey
Not raw to camera, obviously, but how can I make this as aesthetically pleasing and artistic without moving much?

00:10:16.89
Seth Macey
Which is a very fun style, I think, to get into, especially in the genres of wildlife.

00:10:20.69
Aaron
Yeah, i i I agree. And i I enjoy pushing the envelope a bit. ah There was a big transition when I got a Sony camera.

00:10:32.22
Aaron
I was so used to the Nikon like color grade or color from Nikon. And these are little things, but people talk about like Canon's color, Nikon's color, Sony's color and getting used to it.

00:10:46.39
Aaron
ah i don't I don't know. i can't explain. i can't articulate why. But with the Sony's color scheme, I just felt a little bit more stuck in this...

00:10:51.28
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:10:57.58
Aaron
a little bit more natural than I was way a little, it's just a little bit more hard, harder to adjust the colors drastically or change things to make it super moody.

00:11:10.47
Aaron
It, it didn't lend itself as easily, or maybe it just was more true. I'm not sure, but there, there was a shift in editing with a new camera as well, which I thought was interesting as it was happening.

00:11:23.56
Seth Macey
Yeah, that is a very interesting point. The colorful profiles of different camera brands.

00:11:28.59
Aaron
Yeah.

00:11:28.60
Seth Macey
I think you the other thing that I've been trying to do a lot more recently

00:11:28.70
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:11:32.83
Seth Macey
is Because when you take editing too far, you head into the arena of fine art, right? Where it's so processed that it's not for relative it's not even relatively close to what you shot, which is impressive. And it's it showcases your editing skills, which there's definitely a place for. it i think early on, few years ago,

00:11:54.40
Seth Macey
i was had one leg over the fence of into the fine art territory and one leg over the fence into the more authentic, fresh out of camera look. And so now I'm very deliberate in, okay, am i is this a fine art piece or is this is it not?

00:12:08.86
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. Right.

00:12:12.39
Seth Macey
And does it require minimal editing? And I'm trying not to kind of be stuck in limbo where it could go either way. ah and example even take so like An example of this is I just did not too long ago a full black and white portrait of a of a fox in super tight where it's clear that it's a fine art portrait.

00:12:37.38
Aaron
right

00:12:37.64
Seth Macey
Uh, whereas years ago I wouldn't have dreamed of putting cropping in that tight and putting a Fox, which was so hard to photograph and still are as a black and white photo. I mean, it's almost sounds like blasphemy taking the beautiful orange coat and just killing the colors.

00:12:53.07
Aaron
yeah yeah

00:12:55.57
Seth Macey
But if if you, if you go super far with certain looks and you're intentional about it, you can make really nice fine art pieces. So, uh, trying to be more deliberate with which category I'm in now.

00:13:04.75
Aaron
yeah I agree with that I think certain photos lend themselves to ideas like creative ideas where you're like oh I could exaggerate this moment of light or this shadow and zoom in and whatever it may be the

00:13:19.52
Seth Macey
That's good point.

00:13:20.50
Aaron
the

00:13:20.65
Seth Macey
does Does the photo drive where you're heading with the edit or does your...

00:13:24.64
Aaron
Yes.

00:13:25.51
Seth Macey
Okay. I didn't finish that.

00:13:26.52
Aaron
Now,

00:13:29.06
Seth Macey
What do you mean by that?

00:13:29.19
Aaron
and

00:13:29.74
Seth Macey
So just to to elaborate.

00:13:30.41
Aaron
so right now, let's go back to the beginning. In the beginning, I was forcing edits on... Any photo, all photos.

00:13:42.89
Aaron
I was forcing an edit on all four ah photos.

00:13:45.79
Seth Macey
You had an idea and you were going to jam it.

00:13:46.09
Aaron
So I like this.

00:13:48.82
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:13:48.90
Aaron
Let's go with that blue moody sort of thing, which lends itself nicely to like pine trees and fog and mist and a rainy day. That's great. Uh, but a sunny day, um, with not a cloud in the sky and forcing that edit kind of looks like what the, is it blue hour? Like what the hell are you doing?

00:14:10.31
Aaron
So again, if you, if you're on my page or you want to go there, scroll all the way down, it takes a minute, but scroll all the way down and you'll be like, wow, he's changed a lot, like gone it a long way.

00:14:24.17
Aaron
um So I would force an edit on any photo to fit that aesthetic. Now I might, do a photo very blue, but it's got to work.

00:14:35.23
Seth Macey
Right.

00:14:36.04
Aaron
And i think certain photos or certain subjects or certain light or certain moods or certain weather lend itself to

00:14:48.22
Aaron
different artistic choices, different artistic, like it triggers certain things like, Oh, I want to really exaggerate the, uh, the light coming through these pine trees and I'm going to exaggerate the shadows and it's going to be a very mysterious photo, you know, versus,

00:15:07.07
Aaron
of Oh, cool. Fox. Awesome. A full kind of full sun, bright day. I'm going to, going to showcase that it was a bright day. I'm not going to try to make it moody and dark because it doesn't work.

00:15:19.93
Seth Macey
so

00:15:19.96
Aaron
It doesn't work.

00:15:20.73
Seth Macey
So good sub point is letting the photo lead. think something we've kind of both learned to embrace.

00:15:25.70
Aaron
Yeah. And having, having the tools, one of the first like tutorials I ever did was it's on a, this site called Flearn. So it's like Photoshop learn.

00:15:36.72
Aaron
Um, you guys, I watch, I watch, i didn't do it.

00:15:37.66
Seth Macey
You did or you watched? Sorry. what Yeah, yeah.

00:15:40.84
Aaron
But like I followed along with, I downloaded the the photos that they were using. I went through the whole tutorial and it was a, they were making a light, a picture of like, maybe it was blue hour or just before blue hour. They wanted to make it appear as blue hour.

00:15:56.24
Aaron
And this kid was holding, or this girl was holding a flower and they were going illuminate the flower and make it light onto her face. There was no light involved, but it was, it was just Photoshopping and, and using these techniques.

00:16:09.25
Aaron
That's not my style typically of like adding in very specific lights or fake things like a flower that's lit up and lighting up her face.

00:16:20.23
Aaron
But to be able to understand how to do that helped in many different other ways. So trying a lot of different things. Don't just stick in the one... I think the one lane that you feel like you're going to do, understand how to ah profile skin or bring out eyes or add light or add sun rays or add fog or add different sort of feels because it can, the Orton effect, ah color grading, any of that stuff, it can just, depending on what the photo makes you feel, then you have that toolbox to say, oh, I can do this. I can exaggerate this little area. I can do this thing.

00:17:00.23
Seth Macey
Absolutely.

00:17:01.32
Aaron
Right. So remember Luminar four?

00:17:04.42
Seth Macey
I still have it. I still use it every now and then.

00:17:06.27
Aaron
Yeah. Every now and then when it came out, I was obsessed with the sun rays, everything, everything.

00:17:10.87
Seth Macey
Just everything, everything. and

00:17:13.15
Aaron
Where's where would the sun be? Where's the sun coming? Where can I add the sun?

00:17:16.45
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:17:16.59
Aaron
Great. Cool. ah Doesn't apply for every photo, but every once in a while now, I remember that tool. I remember that

00:17:24.45
Seth Macey
Was that the Mantis light era?

00:17:26.12
Aaron
It might've been, which I, top right or left, it depended where it was coming from.

00:17:27.11
Seth Macey
Top right. Jesus light, we called it.

00:17:31.32
Aaron
But the, the point being now is like, yeah, that was definitely a phase, but now there's this in my head. If it does lend to that, if it does lend to, oh, this improves the photo, this improves a little bit of the look, even if it's subtle, I know that tool exists.

00:17:51.00
Seth Macey
Yeah, well said.

00:17:52.03
Aaron
Thank you.

00:17:52.78
Seth Macey
All right, you're up.

00:17:54.88
Aaron
Uh, okay. My third one, I guess at this point, maybe in no particular order.

00:17:59.39
Seth Macey
Yeah, including park one sir third, third, third, third thing you would attribute to your successes so far as a photographer.

00:18:08.11
Aaron
Yeah. And I think, I think this might be a natural one for everyone. And I think it's one to jump onto. I think in the beginning, there's an excitement and motivation with a passion and it's a rocket booster.

00:18:24.71
Aaron
find a way to jump on that rocket and fuel it and go as far as you possibly can because that motivation is probably not going to last at that level forever but in the beginning when you have that motivation and you're able to really tap into it you can get unbelievable amounts of things done in

00:18:51.63
Seth Macey
So strap onto of the rocket before it runs out of gas or the propulsion is less.

00:18:54.53
Aaron
Yeah. Use it, use it. Like there, there's a time where I did four fall weekends in a row, uh, traveling and it was hard and it was tiring, but it was that rocket.

00:19:07.94
Aaron
Like I want to, I want to get this content. I want to see these areas. What's all the hubbub. but I have this energy towards it. And instead of being like, ah, I shouldn't travel. Like I did it. I jumped on those opportunities. I jumped on those things.

00:19:22.41
Aaron
Uh, early on gigs where it was like a lot of travel, maybe not the best cost, but I was motivated to

00:19:30.88
Seth Macey
you

00:19:30.90
Aaron
see what would happen and jump on that rocket and see where it takes you. I think, I mean, it's simple. I don't to go into it too far, but ride that passionate wave as far as you possibly can, because it does slow down. The wave loses its power and then life comes back a little bit and you're like, I can't really go away for four weekends in a row. I got stuff I got to do, whatever it may be.

00:19:54.13
Aaron
at some point there's like this boost that slows down so my suggestion and and something that i did that i felt like helped me was like i got super into it when that boosters were going off coupled with the convenience and inconvenience of covid but the ability to have some of that time it was just a good time to ride that rocket booster. And I i know, mate lucky in a sense, maybe I got lucky in a sense of that time period where that rocket booster was going, but it allowed me to do a lot of this outdoor stuff, get into nature, not have to work for a good part of that year um or go into work. I did still work, but, and use that, that fuel to get to a place where I feel like I did maybe three years in one year.

00:20:48.31
Seth Macey
Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of things there that I want to add or or ask you. The first one is that that initial wave that you've just mentioned will fizzle.

00:20:59.47
Seth Macey
That doesn't mean there will never be reoccurring waves after that. ah And there's always the ability to strap on to those moments of excitement in photography as they come.

00:21:12.72
Seth Macey
Right, riding the the the crest of the wave and then being in the valley of it for a bit with and just kind of floating around and then riding that wave again. So if you can find strategies to help to help really attach yourself to that rocket.

00:21:33.25
Seth Macey
That's great. And that's what my question is. So you mentioned that it's important for people early on. And I added when these waves come five, 10, 15 years down the line, you mentioned it's important to strap on.

00:21:49.56
Seth Macey
How were you doing that? It begs the question, okay, how, how do I do what you've just said? And I'm curious if you can share that from your own personal experience or if something you can't really put into words.

00:21:58.66
Aaron
Yeah. ah No, one thing for sure I can say is there is nothing that I've purchased during that time or the beginning parts of my career that now I'm going like, oh, that was, I wish I had that money back.

00:22:17.77
Aaron
it's, it's gone at the time. i mean, we all know lenses and expensive, expensive gear is expensive, especially as you're starting off. You're kind of like, there's a lot of sticker shock. I had it.

00:22:29.12
Aaron
was like, what? Like a, Oh, what lens was that? That's a beautiful picture.

00:22:34.52
Seth Macey
Mm-hmm.

00:22:34.82
Aaron
What? 12 grand. Oh, you know, like I, I remember those moments exactly like, well, that's not happening. Um, But even even ah ah cheap wildlife lens being $2,000, a body's $3,000, it adds up. And you're like, wow, what am I doing?

00:22:55.96
Aaron
doing or this money could go elsewhere or what have you. And I'm not saying spend what you don't necessarily have or can't afford, but I am saying that five years later, i have no regret or there's no like, I'm not sitting around adding up how much money I spent and what it turned into.

00:23:16.19
Aaron
So I,

00:23:17.55
Seth Macey
So you say gear to get a gear, fresh gear got you excited.

00:23:22.07
Aaron
Fresh gear got me excited and fresh gear. I have this, I have this thing with gear. I don't want to buy things twice. I don't want to be super jazzed about a camera or super jazzed about photography and buy a lens and a camera for $2,000 and then feel like I was really looking at that $4,000 one.

00:23:47.68
Aaron
ah it's It's in me. Like that's the one I really wanted. Now I'm getting better at this. Now I really want that. Now I have a $4,000 camera and a $2,000 camera and I spent $6,000.

00:23:58.54
Seth Macey
It's your experience.

00:23:59.95
Aaron
I've always felt that with guitars. Like the the more expensive gear and the nicer gear you have, a couple of things. Number one, the better resale value there is. If you buy cheap shit, no one wants it.

00:24:11.79
Aaron
No one wants it. And you're not going to get a lot on the secondary market. If you buy expensive shit, it's going to sell for a good price, at least a portion of it back. You're going to get a good amount back.

00:24:22.08
Seth Macey
hearing

00:24:23.49
Aaron
And I think that's a, that's a really important thing to know that. I mean, especially for, for me and guitars,

00:24:31.53
Seth Macey
Is that your experience?

00:24:33.32
Aaron
Yeah. So I can speak especially with guitars. All the guitars I own now that I bought in the last 20 years are worth more if I were to sell them than how I bought them.

00:24:46.27
Seth Macey
Right. Does that necessarily equate to cameras, though?

00:24:48.41
Aaron
No, it does not equate to cameras, but if you buy a nice piece of camera, you're going a piece of gear, you're going to be able to sell it for a good portion of the money.

00:24:48.51
Seth Macey
Probably.

00:24:57.73
Aaron
If you have a really nice lens, if you have a you know, Sony 28 to 70 and it's in perfect condition, a G master and it costs $2,800, you're probably gonna be able to sell it for 2000. Yeah. Yeah.

00:25:09.71
Seth Macey
And you think that you'd be able to sell less of the purchase value of kit lens for rebel TI.

00:25:13.95
Aaron
Yeah. yeah yeah

00:25:17.90
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:25:18.57
Aaron
I do. Or at that point, it's not even like it probably wouldn't be worth selling. Like 2005 years.

00:25:24.01
Seth Macey
Right.

00:25:25.56
Aaron
If I said I need to sell my camera gear, I'm going to get, I'm gonna get some good money if I needed to but provide a bunch of kit lenses and whatnot.

00:25:31.51
Seth Macey
Right. so

00:25:33.59
Aaron
And I need this to sell camera gear. I'm gonna get a couple hundred bucks. So

00:25:37.85
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:25:39.38
Aaron
Beyond that, i think take those leaps. If you, you just have to have a gut check. You have to have an honest conversation. Are you really into this? Are you going to go for it? Get, get some nice stuff because it makes the process that much more fun.

00:25:54.32
Aaron
It takes away one huge excuse. Uh, I I've bought so many things with my passion, so many golf clubs until I got like professionally fit with really nice gear and said, it's my swing.

00:26:09.40
Aaron
It's not the golf stuff. Stop blaming the the driver on your missed shots. It is your swing. It's your lack of practice, whatever it is. I think getting, you don't have have the best gear in the world, but getting gear where, you know,

00:26:24.46
Aaron
okay, this gear is very able to do the job. And now it's up to me to put in the time and I have the gear to do so.

00:26:34.43
Seth Macey
Yeah. I'll say for me also, just to be completely honest, part of the rocket ship was looking at other accounts online that were doing awesome. We're posting awesome photos.

00:26:43.61
Aaron
Yeah.

00:26:44.69
Seth Macey
I mean, that's why I went to Iceland. That's why I've like the camera has been a catalyst for so many things.

00:26:46.83
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:26:51.40
Seth Macey
And because Haley and I wanted to go to Iceland together, that was our first trip together.

00:26:55.64
Aaron
Oh, wow.

00:26:56.33
Seth Macey
Yeah. We'd been dating six months. So we're like, you want to go to Iceland? And I guess that was the stress test. We passed it. Um,

00:27:02.90
Aaron
You guys have only been dating for six months now.

00:27:05.65
Seth Macey
No, we had been.

00:27:06.85
Aaron
I'm just kidding. Imagine seven years.

00:27:08.45
Seth Macey
Actually, seven years. Six years? Seven, six or seven?

00:27:13.24
Aaron
Holy Moses.

00:27:15.00
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:27:15.81
Aaron
Haley, how do you do it? Let's get Haley on the show.

00:27:19.07
Seth Macey
Oh, man. you That's not a horrible idea.

00:27:21.59
Aaron
the I want the inside scoop.

00:27:24.97
Seth Macey
It'd be all bad. no I'm just kidding. She'd be so nice. um But seeing all these cool places was like, i want to do that. I want to do that. Or these cool concepts, not even places, just concepts.

00:27:33.98
Aaron
Yeah.

00:27:36.03
Seth Macey
I want to do that. I want to do that. I could do that. How do I do that? So that part, that was ah way for me to strap to the rocket as well, because I had, I had just to be the opposite end of what you've described. I had a rebel T5I just like ah in a starter kit. And I was so excited to do all this stuff.

00:27:52.97
Aaron
yeah

00:27:52.97
Seth Macey
Um, I think because seeing it on my phone in the living room made it seem accessible somehow that these are just people with cameras going and doing this stuff. And I, I can do that.

00:28:07.67
Seth Macey
Like, why can't I do that? Maybe that's a mindset thing. Maybe people don't feel that way right out of the gate, but I fortunately did. um and so,

00:28:20.20
Seth Macey
i mean I mean, I wonder, i um I wonder, I wouldn't have had a lot of the experiences that I've had so far if I hadn't taken an interest in my camera. So I mean, maybe that's something to, to add to the fuel is that your camera will bring you places because you'll, you'll want to capture those places or we'll take you to interesting events or it get you in front of interesting people.

00:28:39.94
Seth Macey
It's not the main reason. I still would you know would have liked to go to have gone to Iceland and Costa Rica and all these cool places, but I think the camera helped me recognize um that it would be fun to capture those places just as an extra motivator to to go do these things, which naturally built a portfolio and skill and et cetera.

00:28:59.67
Aaron
yeah I'm glad you brought that up because yeah, with that rocket booster, more than just success, early success, it being able to attach to it, got me out of a travel funk and getting on a plane again.

00:29:14.86
Aaron
And it had been a while, uh, the, the excitement to go see these places and potentially get photos of certain animals or certain landscapes, uh,

00:29:19.25
Seth Macey
you

00:29:26.89
Aaron
uh, trumped the fear of, or anxiety, I should say of traveling, not so much a fear, but more of like, uh, there's an anxiety to traveling. I still have it.

00:29:38.54
Aaron
I still have it where it's, it's all, it's all the hubbub, the organization, the where's my connecting flight. Where's my baggage. Where's it's, it's a lot to, to travel. It's a, you gotta be in the more you do it, the better you get.

00:29:51.06
Aaron
But if you're not doing it

00:29:51.54
Seth Macey
for instance.

00:29:53.10
Aaron
It's a lot. And i still feel that anxiety, but the, the rocket booster has pushed me past that where if I didn't have that, to be honest, I'd be like, I'm i'm good at, I'm good at home.

00:30:04.24
Aaron
I'll do things around here, you know? So I'm very grateful for that.

00:30:10.22
Seth Macey
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. ah Okay, moving on. So far we talked about editing and strapping yourself to the rocket booster early on, riding the waves when you can.

00:30:14.85
Aaron
Moving on.

00:30:23.76
Seth Macey
i am going to put as my second point, maybe we'll have bonus points. We'll see where we're at for time. This wasn't something that this is only something I've put into practice maybe in the last two years.

00:30:40.45
Seth Macey
And I don't see myself ever going back. And I am so grateful I have done this.

00:30:48.22
Seth Macey
It's turning off notifications on my phone.

00:30:53.89
Seth Macey
So I don't get the banner notifications. I don't get the Instagram DM notification. i don't get anything. The only thing I get is my phone rings if somebody calls it.

00:31:08.58
Seth Macey
So I have to go check my text messages. I have to decide to go check my Instagram. I have to decide these things. And what it did was...

00:31:21.93
Seth Macey
It gave me control back over impulse. Ding. Oh, I got to open it. Ding. Got to open it. I realized how much time those little interruptions were adding up to.

00:31:38.91
Seth Macey
And how much it was impacting what I could get done, important things I could get done in a day that would ultimately improve my life and my photography career.

00:31:52.37
Seth Macey
Not only is it the cumulative time, but the interruption in your train of thought or focus.

00:32:04.28
Seth Macey
You know, it takes a little bit of time, 15, sure it's different for everybody. For me, it's about 15 minutes to get into a rhythm of focused work. And if your phone is dinging every 10 seconds,

00:32:18.94
Seth Macey
how do you, how are you supposed to do anything? Now, As well, and this has gotten worse as the years have gone, there's rage baits, people arguing, cat videos. I mean, that all has its place, I guess.

00:32:35.89
Seth Macey
But I just don't think people, for the most part, understand how activating that is to your fight or flight to the fight or flight section of your nervous system.

00:32:35.93
Aaron
I love Kat.

00:32:45.86
Seth Macey
And I don't think, and I was one of these people, I don't think a lot of the population realizes that they're walking around in an activated state all the time, which is so stressful and putting circuit breakers or stoppers on access to that stimuli.

00:33:14.57
Seth Macey
has helped me focus better. It's helped my stress levels, which ultimately has made my output way better. It's allowed me to focus on projects, sit and actually focus on a project for three hours, which in today's day and age, I feel like is a difficult thing for people to do.

00:33:30.60
Seth Macey
It was for me, I'm speaking from experience and

00:33:38.73
Seth Macey
I've become more effective at doing the things I need to do, building a website, sitting down and reaching out to guests for the show, ah things that really, really matter as opposed to getting sucked into the doom scroll.

00:33:54.76
Seth Macey
Right. And I realized, I think that. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It's just that you can't fight the phone. It is programmed by some of the smartest people in the world with features like the scroll that is like the slot machine. Never know what you're going to get That you can't beat you can't beat that stuff.

00:34:15.90
Seth Macey
The only way you can beat that stuff is by limiting it. Is by finding a way to put a stopper on it. And so I took it so far even as to... So I did all the notification stuff, which was great.

00:34:30.53
Seth Macey
Which, like I said, put control back. Gave me the control to check. I am in charge here, not the phone. Not Instagram, not other people. I'm in charge of where I put my time digitally, which was nice.

00:34:43.62
Seth Macey
And then I took it even further and I downloaded an app called screens in. and have, I mentioned this on the show or to you.

00:34:48.67
Aaron
Yeah, he did

00:34:50.90
Seth Macey
where I can only open Instagram five times a day. Uh, I can only stay in the app fight for five minutes before it locks me out. i get a prompt before. So I click the app icon and it says, why are you checking?

00:35:07.19
Seth Macey
So I, it's another stopper, just so many steps. And, uh, If anything, it has made me more deliberate with when I'm checking, let's say Instagram. Okay.

00:35:23.39
Seth Macey
I'm looking, I'm in here because I am posting. I am in here because I am expecting a message from somebody via DM. I am in here because, and it's just eliminated the mindlessness of it all.

00:35:36.39
Seth Macey
And the mindlessness is where I feel like a five minute relaxing scroll turns into an hour. And that's where all the things on your list pile up. Then that's where all the stress, you know, tons of stress you you add to your life.

00:35:49.06
Seth Macey
you To mention in that hour, that five minute scroll that turned into an hour, who knows what kind of activating stuff you're consuming, people arguing, this, that, politics, et cetera. It's just helped me have a clear quiet mind by deciding to restrict my access to addicting tech

00:36:13.21
Aaron
Yeah, i I commend you. And sometimes I'm blown away. Like today i was like, Hey man, do you, did you, do we happen to get that important email back?

00:36:24.14
Aaron
And it's like a week later and he's like, I haven't checked yet. I was like, what the actual fuck? How's that even possible? Which was good. I do have questions though.

00:36:36.24
Aaron
Is Haley on Do Not Disturb? Are your parents on Do Not Disturb? does Does anyone get access to the ding to get your attention?

00:36:45.39
Seth Macey
No. Most of the time I'm with Haley, so it's not a big deal. The odd time I will take her off, do not disturb if we're away from each other for a while, or I know she's going somewhere, but the phone rings.

00:36:55.91
Seth Macey
If someone I care about is in trouble, the phone rings. You're not texting me if you're trapped under a car, right?

00:37:01.16
Aaron
Right, right, right, right, right.

00:37:02.37
Seth Macey
So, and then the other thing to add to my my monologue that I think I've mentioned this before on the show, the phone doesn't stay in the room when I sleep.

00:37:10.99
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:37:11.81
Seth Macey
The phone is out of the room.

00:37:11.85
Aaron
yeah

00:37:13.56
Seth Macey
It's so far away. And, I know people who will say, Oh, my phone's turned upside down.

00:37:17.64
Aaron
yeah

00:37:21.18
Seth Macey
I don't scroll on it in bed. It's still in the room. I still think there's a proximity effect. It's a tether, a proximity tether to the digital world, which is full of all the things I just described and having a wall or a door between me and that world, I think subconsciously just offers another layer of peace and,

00:37:43.27
Seth Macey
you know, the pair parasympathetic nervous system where I can just, it's rest and digest, you know? So, so no, to answer your question.

00:37:48.78
Aaron
Yeah.

00:37:54.66
Aaron
Well, that explains a lot.

00:37:57.10
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:37:58.02
Aaron
Why you don't always get back to me immediately.

00:38:02.34
Seth Macey
Well, yeah, I mean, let's use that as a case today.

00:38:02.56
Aaron
oh

00:38:04.36
Seth Macey
We talk every day almost. Could you imagine if there was, if we had like no control, we could spend all day.

00:38:11.99
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah, I do. No, I totally commend that practice. Um,

00:38:19.86
Aaron
haven't.

00:38:19.88
Seth Macey
i just I just honestly felt like prior to this, my know this is how I describe it.

00:38:19.93
Aaron
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:38:26.69
Seth Macey
My head was like somebody with a whisker and a pan of eggs just scrambling everything around.

00:38:33.41
Aaron
yeah

00:38:34.08
Seth Macey
That's how felt walking around. There was just so much noise and stimulus. And I just personally got to a point where I said, I'm not built. I'm not built for this. I'm not going to have the maybe we'll call it arrogance or ego to think that I can control all of this information and stimulus coming at me.

00:38:49.56
Seth Macey
I can't. I'm walking around in 200,000 with a 200,000 year old brain that's not equipped for all this stuff.

00:38:51.02
Aaron
Yeah.

00:38:54.87
Aaron
Yeah.

00:38:57.64
Aaron
No, no, no, no. It's ah it's definitely not. And i feel for the kids that have been brought up with it. You know?

00:39:06.97
Seth Macey
Yeah. So, I mean, I think the reason I've put this in as ah is something that's helped contribute to my photography practice is because it's allowed me to focus and do things from a relaxed state.

00:39:07.55
Aaron
think it's different.

00:39:18.99
Aaron
Yeah.

00:39:19.54
Seth Macey
Make decisions and and so and and help help me label and prioritize what is actually important as opposed to running out of time in the day, just having been sucked into essentially meaningless stuff.

00:39:34.23
Seth Macey
Not all of it, but a lot of it a lot of it's junk, right?

00:39:35.41
Aaron
yeah

00:39:36.78
Seth Macey
Most of it.

00:39:37.31
Aaron
Right.

00:39:37.37
Seth Macey
Do

00:39:38.39
Aaron
lot A lot we don't need to do with.

00:39:40.52
Seth Macey
I need to see 50 stories? I don't.

00:39:43.84
Aaron
No, and I always say, especially in the state the world is with everyone having the ability to know everything in the digital news system and quickness of stories breaking.

00:39:56.48
Aaron
If it's a story I need to know, it gets to me pretty quickly through people.

00:40:01.19
Seth Macey
Right.

00:40:02.56
Aaron
there's a lot of stuff I don't need to know or don't need to see that then wouldn't get to me or you or you would miss it. So, which is fine. It's fine. I think, I think the world has become, i mean, there's pros and cons to both.

00:40:17.93
Aaron
I think you go back to like world war two and the delay of news and the understanding of what's going on can create huge atrocities.

00:40:23.63
Seth Macey
Of course.

00:40:28.58
Aaron
On the other hand,

00:40:29.67
Seth Macey
Now we're live streaming wars.

00:40:31.65
Aaron
Yeah. And maybe, maybe that has the opposite effect on just mental health or knowing, you know, things that really might not apply to your daily bubble all over the world.

00:40:46.71
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:40:48.53
Aaron
Not just not even as big as wars, but like um ah murder in Ohio that was gruesome.

00:40:54.62
Seth Macey
What does that do for me? It's very sad, but how does that help?

00:40:56.44
Aaron
Yeah.

00:40:59.94
Seth Macey
What does that do for me? i just, I, it's an instant arousal.

00:41:02.73
Aaron
Yeah. It adds fear. It adds anxiety. It adds fight or flight. Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:09.34
Seth Macey
Uh, which, you know, there's a that that arousal is built in for a reason. It's the fight or flight. But if, if you're in that state all day and you, you, you may not even realize that I told you remember I told you, it was it a few years ago?

00:41:23.55
Seth Macey
The first time I ever did a breath work session that I bawled my eyes out uncontrollably.

00:41:25.81
Aaron
Yeah.

00:41:29.19
Seth Macey
And I had no idea, like no idea why it just happened.

00:41:32.95
Aaron
Yeah.

00:41:33.82
Seth Macey
And I still think that that was just so much built up, stored stress. that That to me is one of the weirdest things that has ever happened to me. Just round three of a breath work and I just uncontrollably cried.

00:41:47.41
Seth Macey
Not because I was sad or anything. It was just this weird reflex.

00:41:50.23
Aaron
Yeah.

00:41:51.05
Seth Macey
I texted her anyway. I'm like, dude, what can you help? What just happened me? Should I see a doctor?

00:41:55.78
Aaron
Yeah.

00:41:56.14
Seth Macey
The weirdest thing.

00:41:56.67
Aaron
hard.

00:41:57.39
Seth Macey
And it's never really happened since, but that was around the time that age I had just started deciding, okay, and I don't really want to, or started queuing in on the fact that, okay, maybe I'm walking around with a lot more tension than I realized that and maybe we're all walking around with tons of tension and it's just called normal.

00:41:59.70
Aaron
Hmm.

00:42:10.09
Aaron
Right. Right. Yeah.

00:42:14.77
Seth Macey
Maybe that's not normal. I asked myself a lot. I question a lot. Yeah.

00:42:19.41
Aaron
right yeah

00:42:21.06
Seth Macey
with with certain things like maybe this isn't because everybody's doing it doesn't make it normal

00:42:28.03
Aaron
No, there's something to nature and being outside and having space. I think New York gets a bad rep, New York City, of being bunch of cranky people.

00:42:39.60
Aaron
But spend a couple days there with the noise and the concrete and the bumping and the people and the yelling and the speed of everything. it It gets to you. The lights, the flashing, the honking.

00:42:53.52
Aaron
It ah definitely affects how you feel. And I think if you live in that environment, it's in your hands, essentially. That's like the same thing in your hands.

00:43:02.71
Seth Macey
Mm hmm.

00:43:03.59
Aaron
So it must he must make an effect. There's definite correlations to the face front camera and smartphones and the rise of anxiety and depression amongst teens.

00:43:16.23
Aaron
Like, yeah.

00:43:16.98
Seth Macey
Yep.

00:43:17.03
Aaron
there it's the same exact bar graph or line graph, uh, for those two things.

00:43:17.47
Seth Macey
its

00:43:24.21
Aaron
Like it, I see it. I see it in my work all the time.

00:43:28.05
Seth Macey
ye

00:43:28.90
Aaron
Uh, it's a, it's a drug. Some people can handle it and some people can't. And I don't think we know, i don't think parents are completely on board with like, this is the new drug or this is a, this has danger to it.

00:43:43.29
Seth Macey
I'm on board with it.

00:43:44.81
Aaron
Right. Same as cigarettes back in the day, like doctors prescribe them. Like it takes a while for things to become like, oh, that's really not great at all.

00:43:54.33
Seth Macey
Yeah. And I understand that it's difficult because we're, you know, we're speaking to photographers here listening who want to post their work online. Right.

00:44:03.02
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:44:03.35
Seth Macey
And I'm,

00:44:05.94
Seth Macey
I don't think there's any like I don't think there's any compromise with this. It's if you if you're listening and you're somebody who wants to grow. Numerically with follower counts on Instagram, if that's important to you, you're going to have to spend a time a ton of time on the app are on and the digital space on TikTok and all those things. um That's just a matter of fact. And if you can handle that, then so be it.

00:44:28.17
Seth Macey
If you can't handle that and you want to have, if you know you can't handle that and you want to have a bit more inner peace and, and kind of do some of the things i just described, just know that the trade-off is that you're not going to have astronomical growth. Like some of these people you may or may not look up to, you can have your cake and eat it too.

00:44:43.11
Seth Macey
Um, which was a hard realization for me to come to because there was a stage where I was interested in continuing to grow my account. I think I'm not anymore, which is, you know, freeing in itself. Um,

00:44:54.21
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:54.61
Seth Macey
But you can't have it both ways. And for me, i ah got to a point where I just, I valued my mental and physical health over everything. I think I've said that a million times. And this this protocol fell into that category of enhancing my life from a mental health level, from an emotional level.

00:45:03.71
Aaron
yeah

00:45:09.30
Aaron
yeah

00:45:10.49
Seth Macey
And so all the trade-offs were 100% me.

00:45:14.89
Aaron
yeah

00:45:15.48
Seth Macey
And I feel like I'm still doing fulfilling and exciting things in photography outside of the digital spaces I just described. I mean, this show is fun.

00:45:24.45
Aaron
Yeah.

00:45:25.24
Seth Macey
And I can name a ton of other stuff, but it's a good time.

00:45:29.93
Aaron
Yeah, I agree with that. And can I pigtail onto my last point with that?

00:45:35.33
Seth Macey
Yeah, point number four for you. Let's do it.

00:45:38.01
Aaron
Yeah. And this is sort of a hindsight if I could do it differently point.

00:45:44.68
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:45:44.70
Aaron
um

00:45:44.96
Seth Macey
It's not something you can change in real time. It's like a, it's a done type thing.

00:45:48.29
Aaron
No. Well, if I were to, if I were to start over, if I was starting over now, I would do a

00:45:49.98
Seth Macey
Or you should know in the first year. Okay. Starting over what? As, as on your photography journey.

00:45:55.98
Aaron
Yes.

00:45:56.62
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:45:56.66
Aaron
ah My photography journey. So what you just mentioned, there's a time where followers is the key. How do we get followers? Got to post a ton. Got to be on this app a ton. That's going to be the key to success.

00:46:07.91
Aaron
I think this is what I would suggest. And it sounds crazy, but I'd rather you build a portfolio. I'll speak to myself. I'd rather you build a really good portfolio that you are proud of in the niches or the subject area that you want to pursue and then have that set up and then pay literal money tis invest in yourself, get your following by boosting your posts by getting your work out there.

00:46:47.38
Aaron
Do it quick and fast and dirty. Get to 10,000 followers, get to 5,000 followers, get to whatever it is, whatever your number is, whatever you can afford to get to pay to get there and then move on.

00:47:01.92
Aaron
And the point being, if you work at it and you just work, work, work, work work to gain 10 followers here, gain 10, you're spending an inordinate amount of time on this digital platform.

00:47:15.38
Aaron
And it's taking you away from actual work and money, which you could start getting back tenfold. So i

00:47:25.40
Seth Macey
that apply now or do you mean back?

00:47:27.97
Aaron
I think it still applies now. I think there is value for a company that sees that, oh, that guy has 5,000 followers. That's solid. That guy has 20,000 followers. That's solid.

00:47:39.65
Aaron
Versus that guy has 10 followers and he's pitching me a thing.

00:47:43.67
Seth Macey
No, I guess my question was, does the boosting still apply now?

00:47:43.76
Aaron
that

00:47:46.51
Seth Macey
Because you were talking to your previous self.

00:47:47.53
Aaron
Yeah.

00:47:48.22
Seth Macey
You would still boost if it were important to you?

00:47:52.19
Aaron
If I was starting over, I would.

00:47:53.71
Seth Macey
Yeah, so I guess that's my question.

00:47:54.57
Aaron
Yeah.

00:47:54.87
Seth Macey
Like, why wouldn't you do that right now versus...

00:47:58.11
Aaron
because I think there is a level where what I just said, the, the companies or the people you're applying to, or you're pitching, they might look at your portfolio on Instagram and go, oh he's got 9,000 followers. That's solid.

00:48:11.85
Aaron
That's a good following. Oh, he's got a thousand followers. Even that's solid.

00:48:15.04
Seth Macey
How much weight do you think that actually carries?

00:48:15.34
Aaron
I,

00:48:16.84
Seth Macey
And that's going to vary from person to person, though.

00:48:18.38
Aaron
A little bit, a little bit, but I think the difference being in this day and age with photography, if you were to start over, it might be hard to get a thousand followers. It might take an enormous amount of time to get with photography, to get to a thousand followers.

00:48:35.71
Aaron
So you're going to be spending ah you're going to post 500 times to try to get to a thousand followers versus posting 20 times and

00:48:35.89
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:48:46.12
Aaron
maybe putting a hundred dollars total or whatever it may be to get to, oh that bought me a thousand people to see my stuff. And now without 500 of those people liked it.

00:48:57.12
Aaron
Now I have a little bit of a following. I saved a lot of time. I invested in myself. Now I can move ahead with the, Hey, can I ah do some photography for your restaurant? Here's my Instagram. Here's my work. Oh, they got, they have a following. They have some nice work.

00:49:11.05
Aaron
Yeah, we, there's a, there's a billing of trust there. I think the trap being with these Instagram, with any social media is the, there's no end number. So you get hooked in this sort of, 10,000 is fun.

00:49:21.65
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:49:24.46
Aaron
Now I get a ah swipe up effect. Oh, but I wish I had 25,000. I wish I had 50,000. Then I think people are going to give me those bigger deals. No, now it's, ah and the, the bar just keeps going.

00:49:36.87
Aaron
Like it's, it's, it just keeps going. Yeah. when we were first starting out to have a hundred thousand followers was like, that was a huge deal.

00:49:45.42
Seth Macey
It's not that big a deal anymore.

00:49:45.60
Aaron
If someone had a, no, no, no. It's like, Oh, I, my brain goes like, ah yeah.

00:49:52.07
Seth Macey
and from two guys that have like 12 and 20.

00:49:55.41
Aaron
But my brain goes like, Oh, you hit the, you hit the reels wave really well. Like you did a good job.

00:50:01.31
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:50:01.40
Aaron
Like you had a, you had a decent film.

00:50:01.98
Seth Macey
I saw a meme today. It was like photographers or it was, uh, Photographers who have become famous photographers because they posted reels and it's just Christian Bale in an interview just well.

00:50:11.05
Aaron
Yeah.

00:50:15.73
Aaron
Yeah.

00:50:16.56
Seth Macey
which so so Let me ask some clarifying questions.

00:50:16.68
Aaron
yeah

00:50:20.15
Seth Macey
I guess what your main point is, and and I've never really thought about this way, it makes sense, is that would you rather spend 500 hours for free, free in the sense of you're not paying anything, posting, posting, posting,

00:50:32.94
Seth Macey
to build ah certain audience size, or if I came to you and said, hey, you can do that for a hundred bucks and it'll take you 20 posts, which would you pick?

00:50:44.08
Seth Macey
Now we have to make some assumptions here in your argument that I don't know whether they're they're true or not. Maybe it depends a lot on the quality of your work. I don't have much experience with this recently of if boosted posts translate to followers. I don't know that. So before everybody listening runs out and does that,

00:51:01.94
Aaron
Yeah, it's true.

00:51:02.76
Seth Macey
i

00:51:02.78
Aaron
i'm I'm basing this on a long time ago, so i don't know, but...

00:51:03.18
Seth Macey
I don't.

00:51:05.98
Seth Macey
but That was my second question is, does this apply to 2021, Aaron? I feel like in that instance, you're probably very right.

00:51:13.74
Aaron
yeah

00:51:14.50
Seth Macey
I don't know what the the environment is now, but I think regardless, you bring up a good point that. Yeah. that potentially just paying to play can get you further than the time needed to needed to be spent on doing the same thing in your mind. That's free. Like you're not paying.

00:51:39.91
Seth Macey
It's this weird trade off between, ah I'll pay a certain amount to get to where I want to go, or I'll spend a ton of time and not pay in with your time.

00:51:42.00
Aaron
Yeah.

00:51:48.90
Aaron
Yeah. And with that, your this or that, I think needs ah needs an added part, a ton of time also being subject to cats fighting, politics, murder, war, ah just you know bad stuff.

00:52:01.34
Seth Macey
Right.

00:52:07.30
Seth Macey
That stuff. Yeah.

00:52:08.78
Aaron
So it's it's that on top of now 500 hours of doing the work, but now I'm on there for an additional 200 hours because I got sucked in scrolling also. So it's, I think there's this, there's this point where it takes you, it starts to take over. Like you said, it starts to take over and now we've lost the script.

00:52:30.53
Aaron
Now, like, what are we actually, now it's just a, maybe an addiction to posting and being on here and comments and comments.

00:52:36.51
Seth Macey
Which whatever, guess, but

00:52:37.87
Aaron
Yeah, which whatever. But I guess if you're starting off with your photography career and you want, I guess the keyword career, you want to pursue jobs. Thinking that that's the way, which I did in the beginning, and that's what I'm saying, i don't think it's the way. I don't think it's the way to spend that much time on Instagram.

00:52:58.37
Aaron
Spend the time, get a get a little base, get a foundation, sure, but then spend the time reaching out to people, reaching out to clients, pitching, uh, working on your public speaking, working on your networking, talking to people.

00:53:13.90
Seth Macey
Yeah. to To your point too, this is funny. I saw, I think it was like a Hermosi, a Hermosi post. Again, I'm not like a huge Hermosi guy.

00:53:22.67
Aaron
You are lately you talk about them every minute.

00:53:22.67
Seth Macey
I do. There's things that stand out to me where I'm like, yeah, I agree with that. And then there's other things where I say you were an insane robot and that's no way to live.

00:53:30.73
Aaron
Yeah.

00:53:33.63
Seth Macey
One of them was something along the lines of if your business isn't making X amount of dollars, sit down for four hours a day and advertise. And do that until you reach X number of revenue.

00:53:46.96
Seth Macey
And I was like, that that makes sense. And it was, i think it was long lines of take, take what you're earning and and put it into advertising.

00:53:58.58
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:53:59.42
Seth Macey
And it just made me think of that, what you were saying. And that doesn't necessarily mean on Instagram or whatever, but, or even just, or even necessarily paying to advertise, I guess you could argue that just posting is advertising, but your argument was maybe it's not as effective ah as opposed to just paying. I don't know.

00:54:18.66
Seth Macey
our disclaimers, I don't know if that works in this day and age. Like if I'm a wildlife photographer, am I going to advertise my great blue heron? I don't know if that gets me far, if it's targeted well, perhaps. I'm not sure.

00:54:30.76
Aaron
Right.

00:54:31.64
Seth Macey
Maybe somebody can weigh in on this. who's Who's done this? If you're one of these people, write in the comments.

00:54:38.40
Aaron
Yeah. I just think, i guess, get a, get,

00:54:40.51
Seth Macey
I agree with you that it would have worked for sure in 2021, and I'm not disagreeing with you now. um'm just I'm just...

00:54:45.31
Aaron
And it might be, it might be reels. You might have to do it in a different way ah to get sort of a foundation to have some street credit. I do think there is a street credit. Like if I, if I approach a company and I want to do photography for them and I share my Instagram and there's 22 followers and two of them, it doesn't look good.

00:55:00.91
Seth Macey
That doesn't look good. I understand that. I

00:55:03.37
Aaron
So get to a point where you feel like that looks solid. That looks good.

00:55:06.81
Seth Macey
mean, what if I'm approaching same company and I just send my website?

00:55:11.91
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's, I think that's fine too. I think then spend, spend the hours on that.

00:55:14.14
Seth Macey
Just abandon the whole... You know, it's funny you say that because I include my... When I am doing a pitch like you've just described, I include my email at the or my website at the bottom and I include my Instagram. And I include my Instagram because I think just the impression landing on the page, I'm confident my work. I think my work is good and the number is decent. I think it's just a perceived value thing instantly. That's probably the only reason include If it was a low number, I don't know if I would be as inclined to because at that point,

00:55:49.14
Aaron
Yeah.

00:55:49.22
Seth Macey
I feel it would just be redundant if the same photos were there that were on my website.

00:55:49.24
Aaron
Oh.

00:55:54.27
Aaron
yeah

00:55:54.66
Seth Macey
So the website is showing a level of professionalism. And then I think the Instagram is perhaps showing a level of social proof and maybe that you're active on there, et cetera.

00:56:05.25
Seth Macey
But yeah, I don't know if I would attach the Instagram if I had like 22 followers. That's a good question. It doesn't make you any less of a photographer. It just may have an opposite effect on the perceived photo.

00:56:13.76
Aaron
oh

00:56:18.16
Seth Macey
Value or skill level of you, which is unfortunate. I understand that that may be not true, but sometimes you can't affect how people view. Like if you're, so if you're talking to a brand manager on the other end, you can't affect how they're going to interpret that, or you can't understand how they're going to interpret that.

00:56:31.60
Aaron
Yeah.

00:56:34.49
Aaron
And like any job or career or application process, some companies might have 200 applications for a set job and they might just have set of standards that they're going to just toss out applications so that they can spend an efficient amount of time reading 20 them instead of 200. Yeah.

00:56:55.49
Aaron
And it it could be just like, Hey, ah I've done some stuff with steel. They're looking for affiliates to have a thousand followers or more.

00:57:06.22
Aaron
It's just a cutoff. Right. They, they gotta, they gotta put the line somewhere. They want the, they want the postings to be shown to someone. That's the whole point. So they, they cut it off at some place. Uh, and I think that you make perfect sense with if it was way less or it is just a little bit of a badge, like, Hey, I have a decent following.

00:57:28.25
Aaron
Um, yeah.

00:57:28.85
Seth Macey
It's just like a little bit of a stamp. ah You know, the other thing I would say, I was just thinking as we were talking about this, if you're, if, you know, cause we were hemming and hawing over whether or not maybe that the ad dollars in today's age would work, or you can just, you can play the game of Instagram where you just try and make as formulaic, trendy, viral content as possible.

00:57:54.30
Aaron
also true. Yeah.

00:57:55.14
Seth Macey
for a set amount of time, just go hard at it for a little bit with the sole intent of, I'm trying to make something viral, get your numbers up. And then so be it.

00:58:06.58
Seth Macey
I mean, if, if you're trying to perhaps try to build a following quickly, I'm not suggesting you should go and do that, but maybe that's an alternative, uh, just deliberately trying to make viral content, which people, thousands, millions of people do every day.

00:58:12.31
Aaron
yeah

00:58:17.25
Aaron
yeah

00:58:23.84
Seth Macey
So, um, I understand that, you know, we're artists and photographers and a lot of people where that's icky and that's fine. That's not what you want to do. But if it really matters to you and you don't want to spend ad or be experimenting with ad dollars, play the game, I guess.

00:58:31.03
Aaron
Yeah.

00:58:38.34
Seth Macey
Right. I'm not willing. i'm you know, I'm not willing to play that game and that's fine, but maybe somebody else listening is, and maybe that's worth the price. Maybe that, that, you know, it's the cost of doing business to get to a certain number if that's important to you.

00:58:51.51
Seth Macey
Um,

00:58:51.53
Aaron
yeah

00:58:53.06
Seth Macey
but I really don't want people to get too caught up on the, the follower number. Um, Because I do think good work stands on its own.

00:59:06.07
Aaron
Yeah.

00:59:06.51
Seth Macey
But just to really hammer it home, I think it's just a first impression type thing. First impression being that there's social proof. That's just what it is. um And if you feel like your Instagram numbers would hurt you, i don't even know what that number would be.

00:59:21.55
Seth Macey
um

00:59:22.54
Aaron
yeah

00:59:22.67
Seth Macey
Perhaps leave it out and just include an email or a website address.

00:59:25.24
Aaron
I think that was my point.

00:59:26.91
Seth Macey
Sorry.

00:59:27.29
Aaron
My, my, no, it's all right. My point was, Just that get to a space as fast as you can, whether that's pay or do trendy stuff or whatever it may be.

00:59:37.37
Seth Macey
real yeah if what though if do that if though if the numbers matter to you

00:59:41.98
Aaron
If what?

00:59:46.14
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. If the, matter if the numbers matter to you, but get there as fast as you can get there in a month, if you can, and then put it aside and then say like, okay, that's that.

00:59:57.27
Aaron
Now, if that's not what's important, I guess if that's what's important to you, blah, blah, blah, keep going.

01:00:03.07
Seth Macey
so treating is a means to an end

01:00:03.20
Aaron
But, Yeah. So get to that place and then go, now I'm going to put the, all the focus that I would have been putting into this for years, trying to get to a following.

01:00:15.50
Aaron
I'm going to put that into emails. I'm going to put that into classes. I'm going to put that into bettering my craft that will differentiate you from the billions of people on Instagram that are doing the same thing.

01:00:28.43
Aaron
So The trap is being stuck in the Instagram world. Some of the most successful product and career photographers that we've talked to have very limited Instagrams because they're doing the actual thing.

01:00:46.22
Aaron
And some of the people that have crazy numbers on Instagram

01:00:50.05
Seth Macey
aren't doing much.

01:00:51.02
Aaron
talk about how they're just getting crazy numbers on Instagram and the other stuff doesn't necessarily come super easy and it's still a challenge and you still have to pitch and you still have to, you still have to do all all the stuff.

01:00:54.75
Seth Macey
That's it. Yeah.

01:01:04.32
Seth Macey
Oh, I know people with hundreds of thousands who you talk to them and you're surprised that brands aren't knocking down their door.

01:01:12.14
Aaron
Yeah.

01:01:14.13
Seth Macey
i' I'm like, you're you're telling me at 500, you still need to go out and pitch?

01:01:20.49
Aaron
Yeah.

01:01:20.61
Seth Macey
i'm not trying to be I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. I was genuinely surprised to learn that.

01:01:25.44
Aaron
Yeah.

01:01:26.49
Seth Macey
I thought half a million brands would be like, hey, you want to work here? Here's $3,000. Hey, you know, like it just doesn't work that way.

01:01:33.75
Aaron
No, except those, uh, those pet ones. Like we love your profile. Do you want some pet like dog collars? Yeah. Do you get those? Those weird DMs?

01:01:44.65
Seth Macey
We do. I don't know.

01:01:46.63
Aaron
They're always in the heading ah hidden folder.

01:01:49.93
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:01:49.99
Aaron
you want to work with our pet bandanas?

01:01:53.08
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:01:53.22
Aaron
No.

01:01:53.80
Seth Macey
So funny.

01:01:54.80
Aaron
No, I do not.

01:01:55.63
Seth Macey
But yeah, I mean, I guess that trade-off's worth it. Like a month going really hard, build a little bit of following and then relax. if if you If that trade-off makes sense for the potential social proof, if you want to include your Instagram and in pitches and stuff like that.

01:02:08.81
Aaron
Yeah, the trick is it's like like the casino, like leaving while you're ahead, right? The longer you stay there, the more garbage you're going to see, the more brains suck, the more scrolling, the more time away from your craft is actually going to start to happen and you're going to leave with a loss.

01:02:16.04
Seth Macey
Yeah. Make sure you leave the casino. Yeah.

01:02:20.67
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:02:30.30
Aaron
Like, wow, I have 100,000 followers, but what do I have in return?

01:02:30.30
Seth Macey
Yeah.

01:02:34.73
Aaron
A fucking century of wasted time.

01:02:34.76
Seth Macey
yeah

01:02:38.55
Seth Macey
Yeah, I do agree with you, though, that I i would say that to the times where I have included my my Instagram has. I've gotten feedback where people say, oh, the photos on your Instagram are great, so they've checked it out.

01:02:52.64
Aaron
Yeah. Right.

01:02:53.17
Seth Macey
And I think that if it makes total sense that if you're pitching, hey, I can create you reels, hey, I can create you carousel posts, you should have.

01:03:04.75
Seth Macey
Proof of concept that you know how to create those on your own account. It doesn't even matter what genre. i just think that you should exist there if that's what you're pitching. If you're saying, hey, I can do website photos for you you don't need and Instagram to do that.

01:03:18.25
Aaron
right

01:03:19.28
Seth Macey
I just think that if you're pitching content to be made on the platform, you should exist on the platform. And perhaps what we've been talking about have somewhat of a decent ah follower number just for that initial impression when people check it out.

01:03:35.02
Aaron
Nope.

01:03:36.19
Seth Macey
Okay, bonus tip.

01:03:36.86
Aaron
oh

01:03:37.95
Seth Macey
Bonus bonus ah

01:03:41.76
Seth Macey
thing that's helped.

01:03:45.38
Seth Macey
Surrounding myself with people who are better than me.

01:03:50.67
Seth Macey
um And I don't want people to get confused with Oh, I'm just going to, I'm just going to place myself in groups or hang out with people that they can make me better so that I can get something, make friends, but choose your friends in a way that they, they make your life better or that you can learn from them, you know, and also understand that those friends don't need to tick off every box in terms of your needs, know,

01:04:25.19
Seth Macey
Um, for example, let's use, let's use Ian, right? Ian is a great friend of mine. Ian Jones has been on the show

01:04:34.80
Aaron
I and know

01:04:36.95
Seth Macey
just by being around him virtually. I, I become more creative because he is a more creative person than me, which is useful for me. We're friends.

01:04:48.81
Seth Macey
We'd still be friends. You know, even if that wasn't the case is the point I'm trying to make, even if there was no utility,

01:04:56.11
Seth Macey
But I don't need him to tick off all the boxes. Like i I don't need to go to Ian for advice on how to kill after this, how to calm my mind down or how to meditate or how to get a good night's sleep or wellness.

01:05:06.77
Aaron
Yeah.

01:05:07.59
Seth Macey
Right.

01:05:10.49
Seth Macey
You know, I can I can ah surround myself with you and really feel like we've had an intelligent conversation that I and that I I learn a lot or books get recommended to me that improve my life.

01:05:25.99
Seth Macey
aside from that, we're still friends, but also you are a lot more knowledgeable than me. So I, I suck in a lot of that stuff. And I, the the, the TLDR again is, you know, surround yourself with people you want to be like, because you, you'll become the, the sum of all those people, right. Or the products.

01:05:44.90
Seth Macey
Um,

01:05:48.15
Seth Macey
And perhaps, you know, evaluate who you're spending a lot of your time with now. Are those people lifting you up, making your life better? are you Or it a crab bucket syndrome? Are they dragging you down? I think do an audit of who's in your circle and be very careful with who you let into it. And I feel like I've done that and it's been helpful with me progressing in my photography journey and just having a better quality of life.

01:06:15.05
Aaron
Yeah. Show me your five closest people and I'll know your future.

01:06:19.14
Seth Macey
Yeah, as as the saying goes.

01:06:21.20
Aaron
Yeah. And it's, it's true. ah I couldn't agree any more than hundred percent of agreement.

01:06:32.14
Aaron
I think, you know, surround yourself with good people that are striving to do things you're doing or have already done them and learn from people.

01:06:39.21
Seth Macey
But in a way that's not just I want something from them.

01:06:41.76
Aaron
No, of course.

01:06:42.88
Seth Macey
I think that's what I'm trying to articulate. That's the bonus of surrounding yourself with people you genuinely enjoy spending your time with.

01:06:52.05
Aaron
Yeah.

01:06:52.82
Seth Macey
I think you should that should come first and they should all and then the things they have to offer will be absorbed by you in areas where you're maybe weaker or can learn something.

01:07:00.25
Aaron
Yeah, absolutely.

01:07:06.13
Aaron
Yeah, i think that's I think that's great advice.

01:07:08.97
Seth Macey
And that can be that can be a YouTuber, right? that can be It doesn't necessarily need to be somebody in your phone or in your neighborhood, right? I mean, I feel like that's a you should, right? You should have some friends, whether they're virtual or real.

01:07:24.52
Seth Macey
But I mean, you can also get, you can fill some of those holes via podcast, YouTube, all those things, you know? So consider that.

01:07:34.67
Aaron
Yeah. Good bonus tip.

01:07:36.70
Seth Macey
All right. Hope you like part two. You can leave a rating review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. It's a cost-free, effective way to support the show. Consider subscribing to us on YouTube. I get all that word jumble out.

01:07:47.40
Aaron
And follow us on Spotify. if our data A lot of our listeners don't press the follow button.

01:07:49.79
Seth Macey
Oh, yeah.

01:07:53.25
Aaron
So do us a favor. Press the follow button. It's one of the best things you can do for our show to help us out. And it's the only thing I'll ask of you.

01:08:05.08
Aaron
Seth asked some other things.

01:08:05.77
Seth Macey
half the world.

01:08:07.38
Aaron
It's the only thing I'll ask. Press the follow button.

01:08:12.18
Aaron
appreciate it.

01:08:12.23
Seth Macey
All right, buddy. Till next time.

01:08:13.90
Aaron
See ya.