Are Photographers Gatekeeping or Rightfully Guarding Their Hard-Earned Success?

This episode dives into the controversial topic of gatekeeping in the photography community, unpacking both sides of the debate on sharing knowledge versus earning it through experience. We explore the role of mentorship, the importance of building meaningful connections, and the true value of learning through experimentation and persistence. With personal anecdotes and actionable advice, this conversation aims to inspire photographers and creatives to find balance between seeking guidance and crafting their own unique path.

Expect to Learn:

• The difference between mentorship and expecting handouts or blue prints.
• Why personal trial and error will always provide the most professional growth.
• Why you should build a relationship before asking for help or guidance.
• How to be helpful while still protecting your hard-earned knowledge.
• Why nothing will ever do more for you than patience, persistence, and effort.

Sponsor:

Thanks to Tamron for being our lead sponsor this episode! Explore the 28-75mm f/2.8 G2 lens with $200 USD & $300 CAD off and deals on many more lenses during their for your Sony E-mount, Nikon Z, and FUJIFILM X-mount mirrorless cameras by clicking www.tamron-americas.com or by visiting your local Tamron authorized dealer. The Spring Savings event is on now until April 20th, 2025. 

Our Links:

Subscribe to TPM's Youtube page and watch full length episodes: https://www.youtube.com/thephotographermindset/

Make a donation via PayPal for any amount you feel is equal to the value you receive from our podcast episodes! Donations help with the fees related to hosting the show:
https://paypal.me/podcasttpm?country.x=CA&locale.x=en_US


Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography

Support the show

Transcript

00:08.75
Seth Macey
Welcome back to another episode of the Photographer Mindset Podcast. I'm your co-host Seth Macey.

00:12.97
Aaron
And I'm your co-host Aaron Mannes, and then we have our third co-host, Seth's Moustache. That

00:17.70
Seth Macey
That's mustache. My face is cold. i shaved it.

00:20.96
Aaron
looks great. Of the stache?

00:21.83
Seth Macey
Haley's a huge fan.

00:23.45
Aaron
Of the stache?

00:24.68
Seth Macey
No, I'm being soft today.

00:27.43
Aaron
I didn't know Canada. don't, maybe it's a thing. I didn't know.

00:31.01
Seth Macey
To be honest, I haven't clean shaved my face in a long time. So I went outside and it was literally chilly, noticeably chilly.

00:40.75
Aaron
Yeah, it's weird.

00:40.79
Seth Macey
So if you want to see ah my upper lip warmer, you can go to YouTube.

00:47.00
Aaron
I saw an older guy,

00:47.64
Seth Macey
That's our soft ah our soft push for the YouTube subscribe.

00:51.83
Aaron
an older guy did a real and he had like ah a beard, like a gray beard.

00:56.66
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:56.78
Aaron
And he was just singing a song. Look younger, but worse. Or older and better. Younger and worse.

01:07.00
Aaron
Because when you get to an age, like, you remove the facial hair. And it's like, oh, you look younger, but something's wrong.

01:11.34
Seth Macey
Right.

01:15.97
Seth Macey
Well, for me, the wrong thing is the ghostly white.

01:19.66
Aaron
Well...

01:19.95
Seth Macey
aum I'm just like ghostly white. We've had like seven months of winter. I don't remember a winter this long.

01:25.91
Aaron
Yeah, it's the worst time for paleness, I feel like.

01:26.66
Seth Macey
So...

01:29.11
Aaron
March and April.

01:31.02
Seth Macey
yeah i'm I'm haunting this podcast right now with my whiteness.

01:34.06
Aaron
Yeah,

01:35.29
Seth Macey
So episode for today, I thought this would be interesting because I've been seeing this a lot on threads and and just people talking about it in general.

01:37.56
Aaron
it's... Anyways. Gatekeeping.

01:45.85
Seth Macey
And that is this topic of people complaining about photographers gatekeeping, gatekeeping, if you're unfamiliar with that.

01:51.64
Aaron
Gatekeeping.

01:52.41
Seth Macey
too term, it's when people withhold information, whether that's the location of where a photo was taken, or i don't know how to do something in particular. And i thought this would be an interesting episode because there's really two sides to this. And I'm of the opinion that perhaps a lot of the people, maybe not all of the individuals complaining about this gatekeeping thing, saying that photographers are withholding information are perhaps not just asking for guidance or direction or simple advice, but are perhaps feeling as if they are entitled to blueprints, step-by-steps of how to do things that maybe took the person they are asking several years to accomplish. Um,

02:38.11
Seth Macey
Again, I'm not saying that's everybody, but i keep seeing mostly, i won't say all, but mostly this one-sided argument that ah photographers who are more further or further along in their career are kind of being mean. They're not telling me what to do.

02:54.87
Seth Macey
And so I thought we could reference some ah some threads and share some opinions. maybe some ah Maybe it'll get passionate. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see. But we'll try and play both sides of the ah of the coin. What do you think about this before we dive in?

03:08.30
Aaron
I like it. I think it's interesting. It's a topic we haven't touched on ever, I don't believe. So out of however many episodes there's been, it's something fresh.

03:14.70
Seth Macey
and't either.

03:20.19
Aaron
I have a nice cold brew iced coffee, so I'm going to be spazzing with the opinions. And yeah, I'm ready to rock with this one.

03:31.51
Seth Macey
What side of the coin do you want first? Do you want people, somebody complaining about it? Or do you want somebody saying, Hey, this is ridiculous. Like you expect me to give you everything that I know.

03:41.92
Aaron
I think, yeah, let's start from the beginning, which would probably be the request, right?

03:47.62
Seth Macey
What do you mean?

03:47.85
Aaron
so Someone requesting something.

03:51.95
Seth Macey
Like in.

03:52.02
Aaron
So someone, yeah, someone's saying or asking, hey, can I, I want this or someone's a jerk for not giving me X, y and Z. Hmm.

04:01.10
Seth Macey
Yeah, I mean, before we even get into the threads, I personally feel like it's appropriate. And this is what I try to do when I'm when I'm asking for help. I feel like it's appropriate to especially if you have very little rapport with the person.

04:14.89
Seth Macey
You've spoken to them a little bit here and there.

04:15.00
Aaron
Thank you.

04:18.04
Seth Macey
to just ask for general guidance, ask for direction. Hey, do you mind a simple request that doesn't take a lot of time? I feel like it's inappropriate to ask for ah formula when you have no relationship. I mean, this seems obvious, but you'd be surprised, right?

04:38.76
Aaron
Yeah, social skills, man. it's I think it's you can equate it to anything. like you got to Even if you have a goal in mind, you kind of got to build up a rapport. Build up some, you know, compliment their work. Talk about, see beyond you.

04:59.43
Aaron
So like, oh, that must have taken a lot of effort to get that great horned owl. That's a great shot. And leave it at that and move on.

05:07.19
Seth Macey
yes

05:07.78
Aaron
develop a rapport first, we'll give you a better chance of garnishing. Actually, i mean, the ultimate nice goal would be like some sort of friendship or reciprocal, uh, relationship that you can have where guys are helping each other. You guys talk, you guys work things out, whatever it may be.

05:28.35
Aaron
That would be the ultimate goal in my mind. Uh, not just to like steal or take,

05:35.17
Seth Macey
Yeah, the the the phrase that comes to mind ah the quote is you go to go into any relationship to give. So in your example, making the great horned owl compliment. The wrong way to approach that would to be, I'm going once a day or a couple times a week, I'm going head in their DMs and compliment them and then I'll ask for that thing I need.

05:53.80
Seth Macey
Like, no, that's the wrong way to go about it.

05:54.90
Aaron
no

05:56.00
Seth Macey
You go to a relationship to give and that's the goal. The outcome is to, the the outcome should be to, you know, Be ah be a positive person to the other person. And if something beneficial happens to come your way as a consequence, then that's great.

06:11.29
Seth Macey
As opposed to, I'm going I'm going to butter this person up, or I'm just going to constantly be in their DMs so that I can eventually get something.

06:20.79
Aaron
Yeah. And, ah and beat around the bush a little bit, like, ah you know, the if you wanted to see this great horned owl, you guys are in the same area. Of course you want to be like, dude, please take me to that. But I think most people, not all, like I've had that happen.

06:37.40
Aaron
Like just where basically where, you know, on a photo where you're like, yeah, it says,

06:43.15
Seth Macey
well What does that say, though? it can be it can be about location or it can be like, give me this contact at this company. It's the same thing.

06:50.88
Aaron
Yeah.

06:50.94
Seth Macey
What does that say?

06:52.28
Aaron
Yeah. So I think clearly you want to be able to take photos like that or see something or get that contact. But I feel like it's testing the water a little bit. Like, Hey, how long did it take you to get that photo? Like what kind of work did you put in?

07:10.02
Aaron
Are there any tricks to finding locations like this? I'm not asking for your location. Like you can do it in a really respectful way that might garnish the person being like, I respect that. Like,

07:21.42
Aaron
He's in my neighborhood. I'll take him out next time, maybe. Or at least you get the tips and you can do it on your own. You know, it's like when you go straight to the prize and I think wildlife, especially this, this really rings true with, know,

07:37.36
Aaron
people commenting on like, where was that? Or like, can you take me there? Where was that? Where'd you get that picture? What are what's the location of this landscape?

07:48.32
Aaron
Uh, like those kinds of things where it's like, it it took tons of work and time. And also it's an animal. Like, I can't guarantee it's going to be there again. Like that's also ridiculous. Like a bird in flight. Like, where was that?

08:02.08
Aaron
I don't know, 70 miles from where it was when I took a picture like right now.

08:05.47
Seth Macey
You just send coordinates, longitude, longitude.

08:07.14
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. So i think there's like, there's kind of, there's that too, where it's, there's an approach that seems less like, just give me the answer versus you and I both know the emotion that goes into like, dude, I was waiting in the woods for 14 hours for this to happen.

08:30.07
Seth Macey
Yeah.

08:30.49
Aaron
Like, I'm not just giving it to you.

08:32.66
Seth Macey
Well, it's the classic, do you let the kid copy off your homework in school? it's It's the, hey, I didn't do my homework.

08:38.36
Aaron
Hell no.

08:40.76
Seth Macey
You did. You slaved for hours over it. Can I have your answers? Because I was too lazy to do it or I didn't have the the and want to put in the effort.

08:48.75
Aaron
Right.

08:51.01
Seth Macey
No, I won't give you the answers, but like I'll maybe help you if you're struggling with the concepts, if you need help studying and I have some time. That's the way I like to think about it.

09:00.31
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

09:01.73
Seth Macey
Right? Because, I mean, if you just go straight for where is this, how do how do you do this, and you just ask for blueprints as opposed to general guidance, I feel like that says, A, you have no patience, and B, there's some entitlement there that maybe you are unaware of.

09:17.52
Aaron
Oh, definitely with a stranger. Like, right? Like these are strangers.

09:22.16
Seth Macey
Even not necessarily a stranger, though, just...

09:29.32
Seth Macey
I just don't know if it's always appropriate. I don't know if and maybe you you have some thought on this. If it's appropriate to just ask for blueprints ever, unless you're really, really good, really close or really good friends.

09:42.08
Aaron
Yeah, I don't, I don't, I'm not sure. You'd be really good friends with someone that did that often because that entitlement, that selfishness, I think would leak through in other areas.

09:54.21
Aaron
However, I see what you're saying. I think my point being on Instagram, like if you don't, if you don't know someone at all, you just follow them. That's not a relationship. Like we're not friends.

10:04.81
Seth Macey
Yeah, yeah.

10:05.26
Aaron
I'm just not. So if you just for the first time ever, right into my box and you want to just know where this photo took place without any, not even sometimes a hello, like that's happened many times, just like where essentially where, where,

10:25.12
Aaron
And you're like, dude, who are you? You know, they' like, that's the that's the trigger that happens to me.

10:29.87
Seth Macey
yeah

10:31.64
Aaron
Like, who are you? What? I'm not giving you this information. Not that I'm gatekeeping it. I suppose I am, though, from people that like, ah I don't know.

10:45.04
Aaron
and don't know that they're good with wildlife, respect, anything. They're certainly not respecting the general social niceties of a conversation or like a relationship.

10:50.38
Seth Macey
Yeah. Yeah.

10:57.62
Aaron
And then there's people that you know, and they'll talk to you about it in a certain way, or they might even be slightly manipulative, but in a more less abrasive way, like, oh my God, I wish I could take pictures of an owl. I've never seen one.

11:14.57
Aaron
Oh, I've been friends with you for a while. Like, what do you what are you doing next weekend?

11:16.61
Seth Macey
yeah

11:18.95
Aaron
I'll go with, you know?

11:19.24
Seth Macey
yeah

11:21.00
Aaron
So I think there's just there's just a certain way to go about it that isn't abrasive and like entitled and like, I deserve this information.

11:33.77
Seth Macey
Yeah, that's key word, deserve. So the way I feel about it is i love helping people when I can and when I have time. I don't like feeling like simply because you've asked me a question that I'm obligated to give you an answer.

11:46.29
Seth Macey
Those are two very different things, the urge to want to help and to feel like it's an obligation to help.

11:52.83
Aaron
Great.

11:52.86
Seth Macey
I mean, because you don't know what's going on in my life right now.

11:53.62
Aaron
Great. Yeah. Right.

11:55.50
Seth Macey
Maybe I'm like super busy.

11:57.50
Aaron
right

11:58.09
Seth Macey
Maybe it's my fault that I even opened the message in that instance, because I guess even reading a message like that ah gives the other person the assumption that you you don't you don't have much going on right now if you're able to check messages. But like, you don't know. You don't know what if I have time to do this or not. And I don't want to feel like I'm obligated to.

12:19.59
Aaron
Yeah, you've put me you put me in a hard situation where now I got to be a jerk. Like, well, you like, okay.

12:26.29
Seth Macey
Potentially. Well, according to a lot of these threads, yeah, you'd be a jerk.

12:32.06
Aaron
Right, so it seems now it seems like a lose-lose. Hey, where's that owl? Hey, with all due respect, as a wildlife, I could say the nicest thing with...

12:43.49
Aaron
creating a boundary myself. I'm not going to share the coordinates of this owl. It's a new nest. Uh, I apologize for that. Um, there, there's a bunch in this habitat.

12:51.67
Seth Macey
You don't even need to apologize.

12:52.72
Aaron
Good luck.

12:52.76
Seth Macey
You don't need to apologize.

12:53.84
Aaron
Like good luck. What's that?

12:56.65
Seth Macey
You don't need to apologize.

12:57.73
Aaron
I know, I'm just saying like i could I could do it in the most soft way and the person's like, the person can leave there and and might or probably would if they feel like they deserve that information from the start being like, that guy that guy's lame, that guy's a jerk, that guy's whatever.

13:00.48
Seth Macey
Sure. Okay.

13:15.47
Aaron
ah

13:15.52
Seth Macey
Right.

13:16.19
Aaron
And it's so, or, you know, damn it, I opened this message. i'm not i' I don't have time for this. Like I'm not getting into back and forth. I leave it on red. That guy's a jerk.

13:27.07
Aaron
ah Like there's there's not a lot of good outcome from that.

13:31.78
Seth Macey
Right.

13:32.69
Aaron
So.

13:32.76
Seth Macey
And then potentially that person goes to threads and writes something like this, which I have a screenshot of because I thought it was interesting.

13:39.79
Aaron
going to drink my coffee.

13:41.90
Seth Macey
ah Photographers need to support other photographers. I agree with that. No more gatekeeping. Okay, let's elaborate because it goes on in a different thread here.

13:54.21
Seth Macey
Gatekeeping meaning not mentoring other photographers and giving them hands-on knowledge that you gained to make it where you are or better.

14:07.73
Aaron
Is that it?

14:08.93
Seth Macey
It goes on, but I want to stop there. Gatekeeping would mean not mentoring other photographers and giving them hands-on knowledge that you gained to make it where you are or better.

14:20.39
Seth Macey
The way I read that is like, hey, It's your responsibility to seek out and offer mentorship to other photographers.

14:32.14
Aaron
i Yeah, but I read it as he's using words wrong. Mentorship is not giving out the answers to the test.

14:43.81
Seth Macey
Very good. I agree.

14:46.18
Aaron
So like that, that whole thought process of that real but baffles my mind thread, sorry, thread baffles my mind in the sense of like your world's a little bit upside down.

15:00.38
Seth Macey
Thank

15:04.82
Aaron
If you feel like That is the responsibility of someone that's gained to hand out their time, essentially, which is the most precious commodity, and their knowledge, which they spend years potentially garnishing, to you for just asking or for free or as a charity.

15:31.40
Seth Macey
Yeah.

15:34.89
Aaron
That makes...

15:37.37
Aaron
Zero cents. Hey, i um I just graduated college. I don't have a job yet. You've been working as an engineer for 10 years. I feel like you should give me, let me work with you and you give me half your salary.

15:52.56
Aaron
Well, you don't know anything, so I'm still going to be doing all the work and you're just getting my salary.

15:59.49
Seth Macey
What would you rather say to that person?

16:03.00
Aaron
I'd rather say to the person that made that comment.

16:05.18
Seth Macey
past yeah that no that in your example you just gave the engine engineer like you're the person who's been in the industry for 10 years

16:07.93
Aaron
Oh, Hey,

16:12.80
Aaron
Hey, if you asked for, you know what? You just screwed up because we had an internship, uh, set up that we're going to give out, but you went straight to like, you deserve my money from this job. And

16:25.03
Seth Macey
well that's a bit extreme isn't it the money thing

16:26.57
Aaron
hi well, I mean, some of these things are, what what are they asking for? You know, pitches or information.

16:33.32
Seth Macey
Can you get me an interview? There you go.

16:35.75
Aaron
Yeah, sure. ah Hey, why don't you apply? Why don't you apply for this internship and see if you can get it

16:41.77
Seth Macey
Right.

16:45.45
Seth Macey
And thank you because you've, you've headed to a point that I wanted to bring up on this topic and it's that people are afraid to try stuff.

16:57.19
Seth Macey
People are afraid to go out, make a decision, and make their own consequences. Or sorry, people are afraid to make their own mistakes, right?

17:08.13
Aaron
And you learn.

17:09.56
Seth Macey
That's how you get direct feedback and guidance on direction right away is you go out and you do stuff and you see what happens when you do that thing.

17:18.19
Aaron
yeah and you learn

17:18.34
Seth Macey
And you do a bunch of different stuff multiple times and you see what works, what didn't, what doesn't. And you get your own formula quicker than hemming and hawing, scratching your wrist and asking people thousands of questions when you could just go do the thing and get the feedback instantly. You know, it's, I, I would,

17:35.88
Seth Macey
I find it hard to believe that the the decisions ah on action that you're asking for advice upon are so, ah that the consequences or the potential negative outcomes are so devastating that you should be doing this much research and asking.

17:53.72
Seth Macey
In other words, it's very unlikely that if you fail at the thing you're asking about and you just went and go and wentton did it when did it, that it's you're not going to be any worse off You know, we're not talking about, should I invest a million dollars here?

18:08.71
Seth Macey
Probably. We're not talking about that. We're just probably talking about something that if you completely fall flat on your face, it's not going to be that big of a deal.

18:11.52
Aaron
Yeah.

18:15.05
Seth Macey
So just go and do it and find out for yourself right away. It's a lot quick. You're going get a lot more information fed to you.

18:22.29
Aaron
Yeah. And um'm going to add to that zoom out, getting the information fed to you right off the bat might be a quick win, but it's going to screw you for later life.

18:34.76
Aaron
It's going to slow down your progress. I, I truly,

18:38.98
Seth Macey
You mean getting the answers from somebody else?

18:41.23
Aaron
Yeah, from someone else. Where exactly, and so we'll just keep using this wildlife thing.

18:43.87
Seth Macey
And not the answer from doing the thing?

18:47.09
Aaron
Where exactly is this owl? Oh, it's it's here, X, Y, and Z. All right, I'm gonna wake up in the morning. What what time is are they most active? ah I've been lucky the last like month at 5.30 a.m., a lot of action. The owls are coming back from the hunt.

19:03.77
Aaron
ah They're resting with their babies, whatever. Okay, 5.30, X, Y, and Z. I'm gonna go there tomorrow. Cool. You get these great shots. Then Nat Geo, to make the example crazy, reaches out and says, hey, we want to put you on a um on a on a quest.

19:22.92
Aaron
We want to put you on a project for us.

19:24.85
Seth Macey
a question

19:26.39
Aaron
Yeah, a project for us. um yeah I want you to document these owls, buth blah, blah, blah. ah Now, ah like, shit, I have no idea how to find the breed of owls they're talking about, and the species they're talking about.

19:41.22
Aaron
I just, now I'm in trouble. Like, now I have to backtrack and figure a lot of stuff out. It's kind of like, ah again, I've been using the music analogy, but if you if you make a band, right, you can't just call places and be like, can we play there?

19:57.65
Aaron
Yeah. Hey, when can we play there? that's That's like the same thing. They're like, do you have a website? Do you have you guys practice? Have you performed anywhere else?

20:09.10
Aaron
ah You just want to play here? Like you have no, no, no, sorry. Come back when you do. And then there's a process. There's like ah maybe we've got to play for free at a local coffee shop.

20:20.42
Aaron
ah While we're there, let's record our session. Let's record our set. Let's. have some content that we can then share like, Hey, this is us. We were confident about what we can do. This is us playing. I know we don't have a following. I know we're brand new, but this is what we sound like. Are you interested?

20:36.49
Aaron
And you just keep working your way up and learning a ton along the way, how to record, how to, what sets work best, what songs work best. You you learn so much stuff as you go.

20:47.08
Aaron
And then when you get that gig, at that bigger place, you are ready because you've done so many little things along the way that you've learned and now you feel competent to be there.

20:59.03
Aaron
So I just feel like going straight to the answer and the easy result is ultimately slowing you way down from true substantial foundational progress.

21:13.50
Seth Macey
Right. Right. And you get that progress by doing things, trying.

21:20.79
Aaron
Yeah, what you said.

21:21.75
Seth Macey
I don't know how, know, figuring it out.

21:22.00
Aaron
Figuring out.

21:24.47
Seth Macey
The second part of that thread was seasoned photographers should physically seek to help other photographers reach their fullest potential and get them into big spaces, new equipment, et cetera.

21:37.67
Aaron
This is fucking nuts to me.

21:39.00
Seth Macey
That's madness. Like this is not my responsibility. I'm all for helping.

21:43.42
Aaron
Why?

21:44.41
Seth Macey
I'm all for helping people. Believe me, this is why we do the damn show. But you expecting that that is my responsibility to help get you to where you need to get to is insane.

21:58.62
Aaron
That's absolutely insane.

21:59.32
Seth Macey
It's your responsibility. You know, it's not my responsibility to physically seek out helping other people.

22:07.53
Aaron
Talk ah

22:07.60
Seth Macey
It'd be nice to, but like, I only have so much time in the day. And here's the other side of that coin.

22:12.55
Aaron
talk about victim mentality.

22:13.82
Seth Macey
If I'm spending if i'm spending all that time, that's just for a hypothetical hypotheical situation, excuse me. If I'm spending my entire day or most of my day doing exactly that, I'm not i'm not making sure that I'm looked after.

22:32.28
Seth Macey
And if I'm not looked after, i can't continue to help.

22:32.32
Aaron
Yeah.

22:37.67
Seth Macey
it's the It's the oxygen mask. Apply your own first. So I just, I don't understand this mentality where because you're at a certain level, it is now your responsibility.

22:49.70
Seth Macey
That's the difference. that's that's the difference It's nice to do so and helping is, is I love doing that when I can. It's not up to me though to make it happen for you.

22:59.63
Aaron
Right. Yeah. That's, it's, it's bonkers to me. It really is bonkers. Like it, the, that, that expectation, that entitlement, that resentment towards people that have made it and now have a job and they're busy and they're taking care of their kids and they're worrying about their next paycheck or their mortgage or whatever you think,

23:26.25
Aaron
their responsibility. Who are you to them? Their brother, their sister, their best friend, boyfriend, girlfriend, like you're a person on the internet that is also trying to do stuff.

23:39.64
Aaron
it It reeks of victim mentality. Like the reason I'm not getting there is because other people, external factors aren't helping me get there. It, it, it drives me nuts. And it reminds me of,

23:54.98
Aaron
my, my day job at times where it's like, we are the school parents sometimes will look at the school as the savior of like, you guys should be doing this.

23:58.73
Seth Macey
Right. Yes.

24:06.44
Aaron
You guys should be counseling my son. This you guys should be providing this. You guys should be providing that. And it's like, yeah, we will try, but It's your child.

24:18.00
Aaron
Like you have to do these things.

24:18.27
Seth Macey
right

24:20.40
Aaron
It's not our fault.

24:20.40
Seth Macey
yeah

24:21.95
Aaron
Like we are trying, we're trying to do things, but like, it's not our responsibility. I will be here and your child will move on. Like you are in charge a to put it on someone else in, in that amount of like responsibility to me is something's missing there.

24:43.12
Seth Macey
Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. And here's the other, so here's different thread. The other side of that coin and from somebody, can we quit this whole gatekeeping idea for getting work on social media?

24:54.53
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

24:54.79
Seth Macey
It's not gatekeeping. If someone doesn't want to share a brand contact with you, or if a creator won't spend their personal time sharing growth tips, if you're not even following them, or if they won't reveal their negotiation strategy,

25:07.42
Seth Macey
Getting information for free without any established rapport just comes off as inauthentic. This is still a business. Not for everybody, and but for a lot of people, this is their livelihood.

25:15.76
Aaron
yeah

25:19.99
Seth Macey
Which I understand.

25:22.31
Aaron
yeah

25:22.54
Seth Macey
um

25:24.01
Aaron
And it takes a lot to get there, right?

25:24.02
Seth Macey
Somebody goes...

25:25.73
Aaron
Like it takes a lot. So and not that I do believe there's enough cake for everyone. We always say that there is.

25:33.58
Seth Macey
There is. There is.

25:36.26
Aaron
However, it takes work to get to the place where you have a ah seat at the table with a knife and fork where you can eat that cake. And if you start bringing in everyone and sharing your silverware with everyone so we can all have that cake, that niche that you're in whatever it may be, it does start to dilute a little bit.

26:00.54
Aaron
And not that it's like, I'm going to keep this from you. But again, there's just this different approach of like, how do we learn from someone? Mentoring is different than giving.

26:12.16
Aaron
Mentoring is helping along the way. You're doing it, but I might give you some tips based on what you're doing.

26:19.24
Seth Macey
Right. You're driving the car.

26:20.83
Aaron
Yeah, I'm not going to here, do this. This will get you there.

26:23.68
Seth Macey
You're not going to take the wheel.

26:25.71
Aaron
Here, do this job that I was going to get paid for. I want you to do it.

26:30.51
Seth Macey
Or do it exactly the same way that I did.

26:33.82
Aaron
Yeah, it's and it it it it's a lot of work and pride and everything for each individual. And to feel like they they need to just give it up is, I don't know. it's It's interesting that this is even a topic on threads. Like people are actually going back and forth about it.

26:58.34
Aaron
Because it just seems so obvious to me.

27:00.27
Seth Macey
Well, the interesting thing too is if you're somebody who's, let's assume you're somebody writing about this gatekeeping thing. Let's assume you're someone who has had the door shut on them, for lack of a better term, multiple times. Is your energy really best spent going there and writing that and replying to threads and stuff like that? Or is it better just going and trying stuff?

27:17.93
Seth Macey
I keep getting back to this theme of trying stuff. I don't know about you, but I've learned more. From just things that haven't worked, then asking somebody anything. Sure, there's YouTube. Sure, there's podcasts. Those are tools for guidance.

27:30.77
Seth Macey
And then it's up to you to execute and fall flat on your face several times or to soar several times and to find the common denominators between both of those outcomes and form your own method.

27:45.18
Aaron
Yeah, you have to form your own fingerprint. Like that's, that's part of this. You don't want to copy someone you don't, you don't still want to like, I'm trying to write songs. I'm not trying to like copy the Beatles chord progressions.

28:00.48
Aaron
Like that's been done. It's not, it'll, it'll be see-through. It's not you. So you got to like with guidance, sure. With a mentor that you know that you've developed a relationship.

28:11.42
Aaron
and Here's just a funny aside. We have those, we have paid, we've done a lot of free ones. We've, we've made them free for a while, but those one-on-one two-on-one,

28:23.07
Aaron
me and you with a with a client that they have an hour with us, a half hour with us, whatever they decide where they ask questions and they get our thoughts, right?

28:25.27
Seth Macey
Yep.

28:35.32
Aaron
I offer those depending on how the person approaches me with their question. I'm very quick to be like, well,

28:48.59
Aaron
Where is it? Hey, we, that's a great question. We have these, uh, look at this page. We have these paid things where we'll give you a bunch of information. right? So, right, if you want to pay for this information, we'll have a conversation.

29:02.29
Aaron
Then there's people that ask questions all the time. Hey, what'd you think about, um, I saw, I heard on your podcast. Okay. Number one, you're listening to the podcast. I heard on your podcast, use the Tamron 35 to 150. I'm thinking about getting it, but you know, it's ah it's a good amount of money. I'm just, I'm curious if you have time to let me know your thoughts on it.

29:20.97
Aaron
I'm not like, dude, why don't you sign up for one of our, uh, our hour sessions.

29:24.28
Seth Macey
Right, of course.

29:26.03
Aaron
And then we'll, then I'll tell you about it. No, he, he developed, he had rapport. There's a relationship building there. And he asked a pretty simple question. I'm going to give you all the information that I can in that time.

29:38.06
Aaron
Right. So just how it comes across elicits a different response, too. And I think some of the people that are having trouble with the gatekeeping thing based on their sentences that they're forming on threads are probably coming across a little bit abrasive and entitled in what they're asking.

29:59.26
Aaron
Just an opinion.

30:02.63
Seth Macey
Yeah. I mean, I'm looking at another thread where it says, saw a post a beginner photographer earlier that really bummed me out. They said they have so many questions, but every time they ask online, all they get is it takes time and patience. And now they're afraid to ask it all.

30:19.28
Seth Macey
My hunch is you're asking a bajillion questions that are likely very detailed that people simply don't have the time for. And that's not their fault.

30:30.93
Seth Macey
I think this is what I'm getting at. It's like,

30:35.49
Seth Macey
there's It's one thing to be rude and just leave somebody on read or brush off a simple response. Right? That's one thing. It's another thing to

30:51.27
Seth Macey
answer detailed question after detailed question after detailed question. I mean, that's that's hard to do Especially if you're... Imagine big creators, like hundreds thousands.

31:01.40
Aaron
Oh. Yeah. Yeah.

31:04.90
Seth Macey
how many of those kinds of questions they're dealing with.

31:04.99
Aaron
yeah

31:07.82
Seth Macey
It doesn't make them an asshole for not being able to give you the full detailed answer that you want.

31:13.53
Aaron
yeah

31:15.78
Aaron
I think here's ah another thought. It's a good visual for who, who you're reaching out to and asking if you're a high school baseball player and you're trying to contact someone on the Boston Red Sox and peppering them in their DMS about baseball and how to hit better.

31:33.62
Aaron
They're gonna like,

31:36.18
Seth Macey
They're to like, go to batting practice.

31:38.01
Aaron
yeah. But if you talk to the varsity senior captain, They're going to be more up to help you. They're on your team. Yes, they're better than you.

31:47.31
Seth Macey
Point.

31:48.60
Aaron
They're going to be more up to take the time to talk with you. Now it's your first year in college and you're now you're in triple or double A and you ask someone in triple you know, what's it like up there?

32:01.02
Aaron
They're the next step up. If you're talking to people, the next step up, I don't care if you have a hundred followers, you're talking to someone with 500 followers. If you're talking to the next step up, you're going have a lot better success if you're nice and if you're kind and if you're ah appreciative and you show gratitude for their time, you're have a lot better success with the answers that you get and maybe some tips that are apply more to you. If you are a beginning creator and you're reaching out to all these million follower creators and asking for tons of time,

32:36.92
Aaron
their time, they probably get paid hundreds of dollars for their time.

32:40.74
Seth Macey
Yeah.

32:41.50
Aaron
When dealing with photography stuff and or videography stuff, they're getting paid for that. And you're taking away if they are to answer all these from those hours where they could be getting paid and it doesn't really relate to them as much.

32:56.05
Aaron
They might answer one out of a hundred really nicely because they feel an obligation to, but if they took the time to answer nicely to everyone, it it wouldn't it make sense.

33:07.29
Aaron
It just doesn't make sense for them.

33:07.83
Seth Macey
yeah

33:09.42
Aaron
So pay attention to who you're asking before you get upset about gatekeeping, because it really does matter. It does matter if you're in like the same league and you're swimming in the same league there.

33:23.28
Seth Macey
Yeah. And I'm of the opinion that 99% of people want to help, want to contribute to this community. I feel that way. I know you feel that way.

33:32.30
Aaron
Yeah.

33:33.63
Seth Macey
So all these kind of threat, negative threads that I'm seeing, feel like there's a disconnect between there's, there's something wrong in the question asking process, whether it's level of rapport, the amount of detail, the frequency, you know, i this is not an episode that's saying, don't ask questions.

33:46.85
Aaron
Yeah.

33:51.60
Seth Macey
This is an episode that says, hey, put effort into building rapport. Hey, actually execute on ideas. Get your own feedback as well. You know, I think those are the really main important things to take away from this.

34:06.37
Seth Macey
I was thinking when you were just kind of talking there, imagine seeing like a drywall or a drywall van parked outside a house that they're doing rentals on. going up to them and be like hey, how do I drywall my house?

34:18.87
Aaron
Like, yeah.

34:19.26
Seth Macey
you You hire me. That's what you do You know, I've been drywalling for 20 years, but I feel like for some reason, because photography is not like a, you, you can't necessarily see the the work being done in the same sense of someone drywalling a reno, right?

34:21.60
Aaron
know

34:24.39
Aaron
Yeah.

34:36.79
Seth Macey
A new house or some, whatever. That there's this, there's a lack of perceived value, even from amongst us in the community who are photographers, right?

34:49.85
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good example.

34:52.20
Seth Macey
There's value. <unk>s There's so much value in figuring out how to, how to send a great email that you will be working on for the rest of your life. And um for in that example, I'm all for being like, hey, here's some important concepts to include in your email.

35:08.82
Seth Macey
For example, keep it sick keep it you know six sentences long. You don't overwhelm people. um Make a compliment in the first couple of sentences that shows you researched. et cetera, et cetera. I'm not going to sit there and craft or revise or edit your email. That's that that that's kind of a good example of the what I'm trying to explain in this episode.

35:28.20
Seth Macey
Is that fair to say? um um um i would love to help guide when I can, if you feel I'm somebody ah whose opinion is worthwhile receiving. i don't know if it is.

35:40.53
Seth Macey
But That's the difference. And then you can see in real time how some of those suggestions play out that you can then use in future when when executing you know future strategies.

35:55.51
Aaron
Yeah, I think that's perfect. And I think every, my experience with any stuff, wildlife or pitches or business, every experience is very unique.

36:06.92
Aaron
And there's little tricks that you learn from all the different experiences, all the failures, all the wins, all the, hey, that worked. Hey, I did the same thing that didn't work the next four times. So maybe it doesn't work.

36:19.55
Aaron
Like you learn so much by doing all these different individual little things that are unique and to ask specifics for any thing, just, it doesn't work. Like there's guidelines, like Seth just said, ah think that are valuable.

36:37.24
Aaron
but doesn't always apply. Like I could say, Hey, this pitch really worked. And it's to a direct company where I did a direct narrative of something that I thought of and the email, you'll just never be able to apply it to what you're trying to do.

36:53.24
Aaron
So it has to come from, i feel like there's no, just, there is no real blueprint.

36:53.48
Seth Macey
but That's just it.

36:58.90
Aaron
and maybe that's part of the problem from the gatekeeping side is they're like, I don't know the answer. Like, I don't know.

37:06.55
Seth Macey
People want the answer, the absolute answer, right?

37:06.73
Aaron
i don't,

37:09.78
Aaron
Yeah. And they're like, i don't know. ah This is, this is years of compiling emails and work or it's like, I'm not sure.

37:16.90
Seth Macey
Yes, I hear you. And that's why for me, like this podcast has gotten more difficult as the years have gone on, particularly due to the Dunning-Kruger effect where you feel so confident in the beginning and you're able to say things with such conviction.

37:34.55
Seth Macey
And now as you and I have both been more experienced, I find it more difficult to tell people this is exactly what you got to do.

37:41.55
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

37:41.57
Seth Macey
Or I'm 100% certain that this will work. I'm not. It's it's a dance, right? And it's it's tough because it's human nature to to think that every topic has an andt has a you know has an absolute correct answer, that it's math. It's not math, right? there's no There's no right solution to your particular problem or scenario.

38:07.76
Seth Macey
And that's why... rough guidance is way more helpful than me giving you a specific answer for a very specific ah scenario that you have, because the next time it may just not make sense. Whereas if you have a better understanding of the overarching concept, you'll be able to routinely apply it.

38:28.62
Seth Macey
And again, You'll see what works and what doesn't by doing things, by doing, by experimenting. I don't know. oh

38:37.90
Aaron
yeah

38:38.41
Seth Macey
How have you refined your approach with anything in photography? You personally, has it been similar to me where you've just learned from making mistakes that maybe, maybe were embarrassing, but really didn't cost you much?

38:52.63
Aaron
Yeah, I think we just did episodes on four things that really helped us. We could do the same about four mistakes that slow slowed us down.

38:59.63
Seth Macey
We should do that. Sure.

39:01.84
Aaron
But what what I would say, thinking about this is, We talk about like this social media has this lotto effect. Talk about where you're just, we all have this delusion that we're going to win.

39:15.51
Aaron
We do at some point, like you start going on a trend or your reel goes viral. You're, you get a couple thousand followers. You start feeling like, Whoa, wait a minute. I could do this.

39:27.45
Aaron
I'm as good as anyone. I like yeah It really boosts the ego. And I think we talked about, yeah, I think we talked about the booster and like the rocket and and follow that fuel for a long time, as long as you possibly can.

39:33.96
Seth Macey
Okay.

39:42.92
Aaron
but I think it transitions over into like this fake expectation of, Hey, how do you, how do you get this five figure gig? Like, what do you do?

39:54.49
Aaron
And it's, it's work. It's like in real life work, like anything else. For example, we've had Adam Coppola on. If I did an internship, if I said, Hey buddy, I'm actually really curious about Client and commercial photography. I'm just getting into it. I had a couple of clients, but I don't really know what I'm doing. i don't really know how to price. I don't really know how to make a contract.

40:23.29
Aaron
Can I come down? I have summers off from work. Can I come down and work with you and help and and be an intern? I don't want any money, but I just will want to know how this business is run and I will help for free.

40:36.07
Aaron
And if he was like, yeah, that sounds great. I will learn. 10,000 times more things than asking for the end product of any pitch or deal or whatever it is.

40:47.09
Seth Macey
From him too, from from from him.

40:47.29
Aaron
I will um from him, from him and the business, I will, I will see the start to finish what works.

40:49.32
Seth Macey
Yeah, if you were to just email him. Yeah.

40:54.84
Aaron
What's the process? Where do they bookkeep? How do they do this? What do they keep track of? What do they charge for incoming taxes?

40:59.59
Seth Macey
Right.

41:00.38
Aaron
Like I'll learn so, so much by actually doing it And the value being now I know, now I have these tricks. Now i have a relationship to, maybe he doesn't want to take on some clients and he hands them over to me to take when we're done.

41:16.57
Aaron
I've done the actual real work to get to the place where I want to go versus trying to just skip to the end. Hey, how do you get that client?

41:23.74
Seth Macey
Right.

41:25.08
Aaron
Oh, I saw you worked with Patagonia. do you have a contact?

41:27.86
Seth Macey
Yeah.

41:28.42
Aaron
The fuck I do, you know?

41:30.05
Seth Macey
Yeah.

41:32.45
Seth Macey
Yeah.

41:32.87
Aaron
So it's like,

41:35.81
Aaron
We, we get delusional with like this social media is going to be the thing that I don't really have to work at. I'm just magically in it. I'm just magically getting paid one day.

41:47.12
Seth Macey
yeah

41:47.19
Aaron
And i don't think that's real for any of these big creators that are being successful or smaller photographers that are actually out there being successful. It's, it's work. It's figuring it out. It's coming up with their own blueprint that works.

42:03.21
Seth Macey
Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I'm sitting here thinking perhaps there's tons of people today who disagree with us. And frankly, I don't care. I'm not here to get you to agree with us. I'm here to tell you our thoughts and opinions and hopefully it's helpful. But I think also what you're

42:14.16
Aaron
Yeah.

42:18.64
Seth Macey
What you're talking about, that's an extreme example, which is obviously very lucrative if you wanted to learn going and doing an internship for somebody who's a literal pro, if that's what you're into. I think the broader concept that you've just described is immersion, and you can practice that by...

42:37.53
Seth Macey
Surrounding yourself with incredibly talented creators that fill different holes and just just absorbing, not going in with expectations, just being around those people virtually or physically, how they work, how they think will rub off on you.

42:53.52
Seth Macey
which you can naturally apply when you go and experiment and you execute on, on different projects or ideas and you get that feedback. You're, you're, you're like ah picture yourself as a big sponge and the people nearest to you digitally or in your physical world are, those are the people you're going to soak up.

43:12.07
Aaron
yeah

43:13.24
Seth Macey
So it's another great excuse to choose your circle wisely.

43:22.04
Seth Macey
so

43:22.66
Aaron
yeah I graham well sure I think

43:23.75
Seth Macey
but Do you have any summarizing takeaways for people listening from this briefly to put you yeah.

43:35.88
Aaron
it's good to ask. It's good to make relationships. It's good to have a group. Uh, I started a cabin shooting group in Instagram. There's like 50 people in there.

43:47.95
Aaron
People ask questions all the time. Some are wonderful.

43:52.09
Seth Macey
That's the expectation of the group though, right?

43:53.70
Aaron
Yeah.

43:53.73
Seth Macey
Like that's where, yeah, exactly.

43:54.24
Aaron
Yeah. But some, some are wonderful and wonderfully crafted and some are, some miss the mark in my opinion, a little bit sometimes, but overall, like that's, it that's a community that has the same niche that's bouncing ideas off each other.

44:10.25
Aaron
And people are very generous in there if they have the time.

44:12.67
Seth Macey
Right. There's permission to add, there's permission to be detailed in your requests.

44:16.38
Aaron
Yeah.

44:17.49
Seth Macey
I see. Yeah.

44:18.34
Aaron
And share. And we're all helping each other or trying. We're not giving away the farm, but we're helping each other in certain ways. So I think.

44:25.89
Seth Macey
Which is amazing because you're all competitors.

44:27.97
Aaron
Right. So again, but to to the end goal, we believe there's enough for everyone.

44:34.31
Seth Macey
Yes, there is.

44:34.57
Aaron
And it's a competition is good to be able to have a bunch of people that. a client comes to and the prices are relatively the same and it's just a matter of them choosing now what artwork fits them the best or what work and it's not a nickel and diming sort of thing. So it's good to be on same pages and talk with people in your same swimming pool.

44:58.06
Aaron
or baseball league or like whatever it is, whatever the analogy is that you want in your same league. um But I think be cautious of reaching out to random people and expecting valuable information that potentially spent or they spent years finding, figuring out, doing for themselves.

45:18.24
Seth Macey
Maybe not even random. like I feel like there's a time where it could just be straight up inappropriate, even for someone you have a small amount of rapport with.

45:25.04
Aaron
Right.

45:27.82
Aaron
Yeah. Build, build rapport, you know, build, build relationships. That's where you'll get from and understand. i think this is also one of the biggest points. Nothing is worth getting without like the hard work that comes with it.

45:45.26
Aaron
Like there It's just not the same as doing it and working through it and knowing all the information that you know from the mistakes, the slip ups, screw ups, that information from figuring it out yourself, you won't find if people are just giving you clients.

46:11.75
Aaron
If someone just, if Seth, if I'm just giving you clients to go do stuff from the beginning, you're missing out on a lot of pieces.

46:11.78
Seth Macey
The disservice, yeah.

46:20.61
Aaron
Communication.

46:20.64
Seth Macey
Well, I am going to mess up too because I haven't learned that process from start to finish, getting a client, communicating with them, executing, delivering.

46:27.79
Aaron
Yeah.

46:27.80
Seth Macey
If you're handing me the answer, it's the same analogy.

46:29.67
Aaron
Right.

46:31.09
Seth Macey
If you're just giving me throughout the course of the school year, if you're just giving me the answers to the homework that I haven't done, I'm going to fail the exam.

46:37.63
Aaron
Yeah, right. Yeah, and that's what I'm that's what i'm saying. So I think there's, understand that hard work is what it takes for anything. It really does. there's no There's no real handouts.

46:49.82
Aaron
No one's going to be successful.

46:49.98
Seth Macey
And time and patience. Maybe that annoying answer that person was complaining about has some... I i would say that has some merit. Time and patience is great advice.

46:59.81
Aaron
Yeah, stay at it.

47:01.31
Seth Macey
Advice I would give myself.

47:03.54
Aaron
Yeah. I think a snarky answer would be like, stop looking for the answer in social media and and DMS and get out there and do it.

47:08.26
Seth Macey
Fair.

47:12.10
Seth Macey
And enjoy that part.

47:13.37
Aaron
Like go try it while you're waiting for the answer for eight hours.

47:14.80
Seth Macey
Go try...

47:17.54
Aaron
You could have tried four things that may have worked or not worked, but no at that point.

47:22.05
Seth Macey
You went to threads instead.

47:23.64
Aaron
Yeah.

47:24.46
Seth Macey
Yeah.

47:24.48
Aaron
And, and complained about it. So, but by the way, everyone's lapping you while you're complaining.

47:30.68
Seth Macey
While you're complaining, right. Somebody's like, oh somebody's just, yeah, agree.

47:31.84
Aaron
Yeah.

47:35.20
Aaron
So that's that.

47:36.42
Seth Macey
That's that. Next time, I think it was a great idea for you to suggest that we do some things that really set us back. Well, not really set us back, that that but that didn't go our way and that taught us something because we did the things that helped us.

47:44.80
Aaron
Sure.

47:48.66
Seth Macey
We'll do the things that helped us, but weren't the outcomes that we wanted. Sounds good.

47:52.91
Aaron
Yeah, I like that.

47:53.67
Seth Macey
All right. Until next time.

47:55.17
Aaron
See ya.