4 Mistakes We've Made as Photographers Pt. 1

Everyone makes mistakes, but in this episode, we’re owning them and sharing the valuable lessons they brought us. From pouring too much energy into social media to regretfully underpricing creative work, skipping contracts, and being enticed by the exposure promises of predatory photography sharing platforms, we're breaking down what we got wrong in our photography journeys. We reflect on these missteps with personal stories, honest insights, and practical advice to help you avoid similar pitfalls. Whether you're navigating pricing, client agreements, or the balance between social media and creativity, this episode delivers key takeaways to propel your growth as a photographer or creative.

Expect to Learn:

• How to not let time spent on socials overshadow honing your craft
• How to avoid pricing yourself too low and feeling regretful
• Why you should always use clear contracts that outline everything
• How to avoid predatory apps and situations that promise exposure
• How to align your energy with your long term photography goals

Sponsor:

Thanks to Tamron for being our lead sponsor this episode! Explore the 28-75mm f/2.8 G2 lens with $200 USD & $300 CAD off and deals on many more lenses during their for your Sony E-mount, Nikon Z, and FUJIFILM X-mount mirrorless cameras by clicking www.tamron-americas.com or by visiting your local Tamron authorized dealer. The Spring Savings event is on now until April 20th, 2025. 

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Thanks for listening!
Go get shooting, go get editing, and stay focused.

@sethmacey
@mantis_photography

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Transcript

00:00:13.48
Seth Macey
The other day we talked about things we had gotten right in our photography journey, you and i We had done a two-part series. I think we did two each in each series for a total of eight. And we said, hey, you know what be a great idea after last week's episode when we were ranty-ranty or maybe being providing a counterpoint of view?

00:00:31.39
Seth Macey
We said, hey, let's ah why don't we talk about things that we got wrong that provided lessons since we did things that we got right that provided lessons? Yeah. Let's talk about things we did wrong that also provided us lessons that maybe weren't ideal.

00:00:44.10
Seth Macey
Maybe it weren't the kind of outcome that we wanted in the moment, but we're very useful in propelling us forwards for not doing that thing again or giving us crucial feedback.

00:00:54.56
Aaron
Yeah, I think ah but we got to do it to make it fair.

00:00:58.86
Seth Macey
I think so.

00:00:59.70
Aaron
We definitely...

00:00:59.84
Seth Macey
yeah The equilibrium, keep things in balance.

00:01:03.02
Aaron
Yeah, sometimes on social media or or podcasts, you hear of like all the wins. That's normal human nature to just talk about sometimes good stuff.

00:01:11.07
Seth Macey
yeah

00:01:14.16
Aaron
But there's definitely been learning ah moments along the way. Let's call them learning moments or some may know those as mistakes or screw ups.

00:01:25.50
Aaron
ah But definitely um something worth talking about and getting into, I think.

00:01:31.16
Seth Macey
All right, so that's what today is going to be. Things that Aaron and myself have done or not done that provided us a valuable lesson. So with that, I think you'll do two today. I'll do two. We'll make it a two-part series and let's get into it.

00:01:44.22
Seth Macey
You want to I'll start next week. What do you want

00:01:47.82
Aaron
Sure, I will start. I don't mind.

00:01:49.64
Seth Macey
to do?

00:01:50.49
Aaron
We'll get into it.

00:01:50.80
Seth Macey
Okay. First thing that you got wrong on your photography journey.

00:01:58.94
Aaron
The first thing. Well, this is more reflective on...

00:02:02.12
Seth Macey
First of a hundred, right?

00:02:03.36
Aaron
and Yeah, there's there's a lot, but ah just reflective over the time. ah This has been a common theme lately.

00:02:10.96
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:02:11.24
Aaron
I do feel like I spent slightly too much time... in the social media game versus really getting after certain things, thinking that that was the answer or thinking that that would be the problem solver to the things that I was chasing or or looking for.

00:02:34.49
Aaron
So going back, I, think in the beginning, I definitely was hooked on this idea of, wow, I need to get more followers. I need to get more followers. A certain amount of followers opens up all these doors and then slowly started to realize that it's not about that.

00:02:53.77
Aaron
It was more about where are you directing your work? Where are you directing your talent, quote unquote, your pitches, your creative ideas, what what are you trying to actually do with this stuff?

00:03:08.91
Aaron
And is the process really matching up with those end goals? So if my goal was just to have a great social media and make as many followers as possible, fine.

00:03:19.77
Aaron
I think that that's great. Work as hard as you can at social media and making as many followers as possible. If that's what makes you happy in this world, cool. I have nothing to say against that.

00:03:31.47
Aaron
ah But I think sometimes there's a mismatch between feeling like if I do this with social media, then X, y and Z will start to happen. I'll get brand deals. i'll I'll be famous. i People will be knocking down my door for work.

00:03:47.77
Aaron
And I think I just realized pretty quickly that that that was a mistake or a fallacy in terms of my thinking and my process. And I probably spent many hours doing those kinds of things versus actually working on what I was trying to accomplish.

00:04:06.03
Seth Macey
Which was, just to be clear...

00:04:08.52
Aaron
I think early on, I realized that I wanted to, I felt competent enough to take my photography or pitching ideas, communication skills, whatever it is to companies and get paid for work, whatever that may be.

00:04:26.54
Aaron
And at the time I was figuring stuff out and trying a lot of things and saying yes to a lot of different things or making pitches to a lot of different things as well. ah But that that's where I started to get interested in.

00:04:38.14
Aaron
Not to mention even on a personal passion side was like wildlife and nature photography and editing and learning a bunch of that stuff, which being on social media or trying to beat the algorithm or being tied to a schedule takes away from that as well.

00:04:57.74
Aaron
So in two different aspects, my craft, and then also feeling like I think I can get paid for this hobby of mine, this passion of mine, and and turning that into paid gigs,

00:05:11.85
Aaron
really spending a ton of time on social media and making posts and tailoring them and making sure the hashtags were perfect and the timing was perfect and posting, trying to post daily and doing Instagram live and doing all the things to try to booster my social media.

00:05:30.64
Aaron
i think there's a, there's a good line to have with that. And I think sometimes it's easy to go too far in that direction. Again, if your real goals are elsewhere,

00:05:42.74
Seth Macey
Yeah. Okay. I have a couple of questions that we can dig into this a little more.

00:05:44.81
Aaron
Yeah.

00:05:46.26
Seth Macey
I think this begs the question, okay, you're reflecting on this right now. How are you able to say that or know that I spent too much time on this rather than and was just time spent?

00:05:59.86
Aaron
Yeah, well now it was just time spent, but I think looking back, it was, it slowed down the process a bit of getting certain gigs or getting emails out or feeling burnt out with the process of being on social media and producing for social media when that production could have been used elsewhere.

00:06:25.91
Aaron
So let's just say I have a, I have a hundred hours before i burn out dealing with photography stuff. before I like am fried. If I'm spending 20 of those hours editing and posting and talking about photography on social media and ah connecting and talking to other people on that, it just leaves me with 80 hours left to do photography stuff.

00:06:50.05
Aaron
And I feel that now sometimes with what we do, like, here's a funny story. My sister just went on a safari and she literally texts me.

00:06:57.35
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:06:58.92
Aaron
She's like, Hey, they gave us a camera. Like I have a USB of photos. Would you be able to, edit some of them? and just give me some good edits on some of the photos. I have no idea what I'm doing and maybe put together a video of mine, uh, from all the clips that I have.

00:07:14.22
Aaron
And my initial reaction was like, Oh my God, no. Oh,

00:07:18.49
Seth Macey
but

00:07:18.63
Aaron
Like that was, that was my gut feeling because it's like, I only have so many hours of photography stuff in, in totality that I, before I'm just like, Oh my, that's like too much this week.

00:07:27.10
Seth Macey
before you burn out.

00:07:31.87
Aaron
So I will do it for her and I will, I will help her through the process of course. ah But my initial gut was like, Ooh, like that's good. That's going to eat away from the client editing that I have to do, or that's going to eat away from the podcast that I have to and want to do.

00:07:51.13
Aaron
So I just feel like looking back, a lot of that time spent got me to a place where I was like, I need a break from photography much quicker.

00:08:02.13
Aaron
And that maybe held me back from progressing as fast as I wanted to on those other certain goals.

00:08:10.00
Seth Macey
Yeah. And then my second question, I said I had a couple, was what flipped the switch for you in terms of realizing, oh my goodness, maybe my time is best allocated elsewhere.

00:08:23.38
Seth Macey
You have to have that realization.

00:08:23.41
Aaron
I,

00:08:24.62
Seth Macey
and And I don't know if that happened gradually for you or if it was sudden.

00:08:27.17
Aaron
yeah, honestly, I think it was our interview with Adam Coppola.

00:08:32.57
Seth Macey
Okay.

00:08:33.35
Aaron
I bring him up a lot, but I just realized like and dude has 800 followers maybe. And he did back then and still does. And that's not a knock at all. He is full-time busy and taking in huge clients. And that's what he's doing.

00:08:48.96
Aaron
That's where he's spending his time and building his team around and producing that work all the time.

00:08:54.81
Seth Macey
Great work.

00:08:55.81
Aaron
Yeah. And I realized, Oh, there's a that's not, that's not just one path to photography success or stardom, if you will, like you can, you don't need 10,000 followers to be super successful at what you do.

00:09:14.99
Aaron
And maybe actually looking at him, I said, Maybe that's taking away actually. And if he were to be spending that much time on his social media presence, I'm not sure he would have enough in the tank to do what he's doing.

00:09:31.03
Aaron
So

00:09:31.10
Seth Macey
Yeah, it's remember in that interview, he's like, ah, I really got to get on there and posting more and just kind of saying it willy-nilly, like, ah, I guess I should, but not really a – yeah, as an afterthought, it's not really a priority because I'm already doing so much.

00:09:39.87
Aaron
yeah, almost an afterthought.

00:09:45.89
Aaron
Yeah. So, and what that meant to me was like years of creating clients, good relationships, keeping them, going back to clients, having repeat gigs, ah understanding licensing, understanding pricing, all that stuff that is a full education.

00:10:06.01
Aaron
ah but i just real with him, i was like, yeah, social media was taken away from that learning.

00:10:12.66
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:10:12.80
Aaron
Like you you can only do so much on here, I feel like. So ah again, it's a line. A lot of my successes have come from it. I'm not, I try not to disparage it too much. I know I do sometimes.

00:10:26.52
Aaron
I just feel like there's a disconnect between what a what a lot of people, myself included, had thought that, oh, this will create this outcome.

00:10:37.56
Seth Macey
Right. This is the path.

00:10:38.94
Aaron
Yeah.

00:10:39.18
Seth Macey
I think, I think where, there's a bit of a strife is people want to do what you just described, the Adam Coppola thing, where there the social media perhaps is not important and they have tons of gigs.

00:10:54.32
Seth Macey
and People want to have be busy like that, working on high production, working with high production clients and and do those things. But at the same time, I feel like people... want to tell everyone about it.

00:11:05.76
Seth Macey
It's this weird thing of, I want to, I want all of this work that I'm doing to be seen to as many people as possible. And I guess you have to have a conversation with yourself is how are you going to fill your photography bucket?

00:11:20.77
Seth Macey
So you have 80 hours, hypothetically, how are you going to spend those hours? Before you're burnt out, are you going to spend them entirely spend them entirely on your social media? Are you going to spend them entirely on writing emails and doing things behind the scenes? Are you goingnna have ah blend of those two?

00:11:33.89
Seth Macey
Because when it comes to social media is important to people because people want their work validated for whatever reason. I mean, it's natural human need to feel like what we're contributing is important and relevant.

00:11:39.10
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:11:45.20
Seth Macey
And so I think it's it's tough for many people to to just work in the shadows because this art even if we're working commercially, as artists, we want to share our work, right?

00:11:58.32
Aaron
yeah

00:11:58.63
Seth Macey
And I feel like... touches into the not enough concept, I feel like people have the impression that sharing to 200 people, 200 followers is is like lame or something.

00:12:11.06
Seth Macey
I gotta have more people that I share all this important stuff that I'm doing to. And that's going to be different for everyone. i mean, I think you've realized for yourself that, and I know a lot of the projects you've been working on, they don't see the light of day.

00:12:22.72
Aaron
Yeah.

00:12:26.86
Seth Macey
Maybe a couple telephone can reshares.

00:12:29.52
Aaron
yeah

00:12:30.52
Seth Macey
And i feel like maybe you're at a place where sharing that stuff doesn't matter. You don't care if the 20,000 you have see it or not. Uh, And I don't think there's a right or wrong way. I just think that maybe you maybe have a little bit more of a, of ego death to, to, a for, for lack of a better term. Right.

00:12:52.71
Aaron
Yeah, definitely. And I think it comes with time. Like I i was there. I 100% was there. I will admit that I was very into that growth and trying things and and figuring it out and showing my work and getting praise and and whatnot.

00:13:10.04
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:13:10.15
Aaron
And maybe it's maybe the validation's there. Maybe the validation came with like, who who knows the exact numbers, but, Oh, you got, you have five companies that paid you to do photography.

00:13:22.44
Aaron
Oh, people have bought a print. Oh, you've hung your stuff in a restaurant. Okay. Enough.

00:13:28.16
Seth Macey
Yes, that's what I was just going to say.

00:13:29.37
Aaron
Yeah.

00:13:29.58
Seth Macey
It's your stack of undeniable proof. And perhaps your early stages of social media where Instagram and growing followers and getting people to comment heater, bro, on your pictures.

00:13:39.91
Aaron
Love those. Thank you everyone.

00:13:40.76
Seth Macey
Maybe that was part of the... part of the fuel that, that helped you build the confidence to be able to go out and message these brands and clients because, Hey, so many people have said, I'm good.

00:13:52.93
Seth Macey
8,000 people have followed me. you know, maybe that was part of, That was part of a necessary part of your journey to be able to have the confidence to go out.

00:14:05.22
Aaron
one hundred percent i i do

00:14:06.94
Seth Macey
And then you realize, Hey, i get okay, well, I have the skills. People have told me so now I've pitched a few companies sharing. Isn't that important anymore? So it sounds to me like maybe in the beginning, the sharing to social media was I'm new to photography.

00:14:20.53
Seth Macey
I ah don't really have a ton of experience world strangers. Tell me I'm good so I can go out and spread my wings.

00:14:27.56
Aaron
Yeah. And I think I've talked about ah the latest reel was about that rocket booster.

00:14:32.95
Seth Macey
Uh-huh.

00:14:33.04
Aaron
ah In the beginning, i had I had stamina. I had stamina to sit at the computer and edit 10 photos, each photo individually. I could be there for hours and truly enjoy it.

00:14:46.17
Aaron
Right now, my honest stamina is... like a complicated photo or one of my own wildlife photos is, is one photo. That's where, that's where my attention span like starts to fade.

00:14:55.15
Seth Macey
yeah

00:14:58.97
Aaron
My eyes almost start to hurt. Like I just don't want to really sit there and do multiple, multiple photos. I will for a client. I will, if it's something I got to get done, I will push through it.

00:15:11.79
Aaron
But in terms of want, back in the day, I would want to edit 10 photos from out at you know one one outing in the woods where I got a bunch of different looks. I would wanna edit all 10 of them and save them and and post them and come back to them and post more.

00:15:29.62
Aaron
Now it's it's it's different.

00:15:30.62
Seth Macey
Thank

00:15:31.65
Aaron
And if it's like, i have one feel good edit, feel good edit in me, and i have this paying client that needs their stuff done. So am I going to do that one feel-good edit to post on social media and then be burnt out for the work that I have to do?

00:15:50.41
Aaron
It's just sort of like a priority list that I'm balancing. When things are slow, I might post a photo every once in a while. I will be active on social media. i post posts. things that I'm doing, I kind of use it more personally now than a personal brand, I suppose, of like trying to promote my work.

00:16:07.38
Aaron
ah

00:16:07.59
Seth Macey
Right.

00:16:08.04
Aaron
And it feels more balanced and more healthy to me at this point. And like, like we said, I think This is a good and bad. There's two sides to the sword sword where in the beginning, yes, it gave me the validation. Yes. it gave me the confidence to reach out.

00:16:25.02
Aaron
Yes. I met a lot of people. Yes. I met you. And here we are today. There's nothing I would change necessarily about it. However, maybe just the realization of finding your why and what you really want to happen with whatever passion you're doing.

00:16:43.04
Aaron
And then how much time are you spending in the process of growing your social media versus doing the actual thing, having an audit of that early on to make sure they're aligned.

00:16:57.87
Seth Macey
Yeah, I would agree with this too. Personally, I think also subconsciously, I felt like posting Monday, Wednesday, Friday, commenting people's stuff in the explore page and doing all this stuff was busy work.

00:17:12.08
Seth Macey
it was a way to It was a way to tell myself, okay, you're doing the thing, you're you're grinding, you're hustling. you know i like to use the term, it's like organizing your sock drawer to trick yourself that you're being productive.

00:17:21.31
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:17:22.06
Seth Macey
That's just not

00:17:23.09
Aaron
yeah

00:17:23.50
Seth Macey
used your time. So I feel like subconsciously for me in the beginning phases, what you're talking about was a way to feel like I was making moves and being productive when I could have, again, I'm not regretting time spent on there based on all the things you said, people met, experience, all those things.

00:17:38.76
Seth Macey
But Perhaps it was a guise or a distraction from, or I was trying to convince myself, oh, you're, you're really, you know, doing all you can. You're really hustling on there and convincing myself, this is the way, this is the path. When, like you've mentioned, there's many different paths to whatever your version of success is with your camera. And for you, it was, Hey, I want to make some money with, from this hobby. I want to become a quote professional.

00:18:04.27
Seth Macey
Right.

00:18:04.33
Aaron
Yeah.

00:18:05.39
Seth Macey
so

00:18:05.79
Aaron
Yeah. And and just to, there was a second point too, I think I really realized that this is, it was all a facade. And when, when Instagram started promoting reels and it just was like a, um, I've mentioned this before. It was an on switch with like, if you did a reel that caught some traction, you would all of a sudden get a flood of followers.

00:18:28.53
Aaron
It made no sense. It was not like uh, just a constant random sort of following and people liked your work. It was like, they turned it on, like turned on a machine.

00:18:39.06
Aaron
And within eight minutes you'd get 300 followers and then it would be turned off. And it's like, I just got so many followers, but i don't know if my thing was broken or anyone experienced that.

00:18:49.56
Aaron
But I was like, this is just, they're like feeding the dopamine and it's not necessarily real. Like there's, there's a, there's a disconnect between real connection and just numbers happening, which is making us exciting excited, excited.

00:19:05.86
Aaron
And I think to me, that was a little bit of a turnoff where I was like, I think this is because I'm doing reels, not because my work is good. And I was like, okay.

00:19:18.08
Aaron
I, I don't know if I need to like pursue this, what felt like, like fake followers at the time.

00:19:27.96
Seth Macey
where they.

00:19:27.97
Aaron
And I think

00:19:28.32
Seth Macey
Hmm.

00:19:29.97
Aaron
Who knows? But I, I don't, I can't imagine that like in a span of eight minutes, it's just like on my, on my little heart thing, you'd be like follower, follower, follower, follow follow follow like because of a reel, just like a random time.

00:19:45.38
Aaron
It wasn't like every, you know, couple minutes for days, someone followed it and liked your work. It was just like, literally it felt like they turned an on switch on and just went and then turned it off.

00:19:57.21
Aaron
Like that's really what it felt like on some of those reels that performed well. And when that first started and everyone was having like this huge growth and was posting reels and, and getting away from photography and showing huge growth, something felt weird about it. Something felt fishy about it.

00:20:19.30
Aaron
And i feel like that, that too was like, okay, like these are, these feel like fake numbers.

00:20:27.41
Seth Macey
Yeah, maybe. Were you part of the bonuses?

00:20:30.07
Aaron
Yeah, back in the back in the day.

00:20:32.03
Seth Macey
That was very lucrative for many people in terms of income.

00:20:35.20
Aaron
Yeah, for a little while, like crazy lucrative lucrative.

00:20:38.48
Seth Macey
That's one bonu one of my bonus ones one um One of my regrets was... ah getting the I got the notification says, you want to be part of bonuses? And I said, this is just stupid fad X.

00:20:52.24
Seth Macey
And then fast forward year a year later, I know tons of creators who were making thousands, like five figures from from posting reels.

00:21:00.94
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:21:04.36
Seth Macey
And this was when you post anything that's relatively good, right?

00:21:08.08
Aaron
yeah

00:21:08.87
Seth Macey
it's going to explode. So one of my regrets, I know we've just bashed spending too much time on social media.

00:21:12.68
Aaron
yeah

00:21:13.76
Seth Macey
However, that was a time when I wish I had hopped on a trend like that because it would have gotten me into being excited about video sooner, which took me until recently to get excited about.

00:21:28.21
Seth Macey
B, since I am also interested in making income

00:21:32.40
Aaron
Yeah.

00:21:32.67
Seth Macey
ah With my camera. I wish that I had have pounced on or had seen that opportunity.

00:21:38.99
Aaron
yeah

00:21:39.19
Seth Macey
my goodness, bonuses, as opposed to just dismissing it and being a cynic and skeptical and saying this is stupid. having I should have noticed like, okay, if the Instagram is personally messaging me about this, it's going to be kind of a big deal.

00:21:51.75
Seth Macey
And it was, you know, we just spoke about efficiency, spending your time for a good return. Back then, like I said, you posted anything and you got thousands of followers. Not that that's important, but it definitely doesn't hurt you, as we've talked about in episodes, as social proof. I mean, if a few videos could have paid me couple thousand dollars and and boosted my numbers for...

00:22:15.49
Seth Macey
you know, a good video.

00:22:17.52
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:22:18.30
Seth Macey
Why did I say no to that? That's just kind of, it seemed like a free lottery ticket at the time that I threw in the trash.

00:22:26.26
Aaron
yeah

00:22:26.60
Seth Macey
So what I learned from that, this is a bonus or not, this isn't my one. What I've learned from this is to pay is to not dismiss changing trends as fads so quickly. in this space uh of course there are some that uh that come and go we don't need really need to talk about nft mania uh

00:22:47.80
Aaron
Yeah. That or guides on Instagram. Remember the guide?

00:22:50.77
Seth Macey
Guides, but I think don't dismiss them entirely. Do some research. Don't just be a cynic and be like, ah, i'm stupid, dumb.

00:22:57.42
Aaron
Yeah.

00:23:00.81
Seth Macey
I'm not doing that. Think about the trajectory, not even just of social media, just it it was a good lesson for things in general. pry more. What could this be? What could this do for me? How could this serve me? Is this worth the time?

00:23:14.90
Seth Macey
Where is there? Is there any value in in this being a catalyst for me for growing me as a professional, as a videographer? ah So that was one of my little bonus ones. And you segwayed for me.

00:23:30.89
Aaron
There you go Let's hear your real one.

00:23:33.77
Seth Macey
my real one.

00:23:35.70
Aaron
Real regrets.

00:23:35.69
Seth Macey
Okay. I don't even really want to say regret. Like,

00:23:39.84
Aaron
Regert.

00:23:42.05
Seth Macey
I don't even know if i want to say that. It's just something you're like, ah, took me so damn long to learn this. But, uh, and I still struggle with what I'm about to say sometimes. And that's why I text you like I did yesterday, just to, just to stay sane. And we've taught, we talk about it on the show all the time, but it's harder when your emotions are involved. And yes, I know that I'm being suspenseful here, but the amount of times I have priced too low,

00:24:09.10
Seth Macey
too low because I really wanted the gig.

00:24:15.90
Seth Macey
It seemed like good money at the time. Maybe not fair money, but good, great. More than what most people get paid hourly. Do the work. See how the assets were used. See how much business they generate. And then being resentful with myself, knowing that I should have charged way more.

00:24:35.90
Seth Macey
And instead of looking at the project and the client in a good light, I'm just bitter about it. her bitter at myself for you, stupid ding dong. That was worth triple what you paid. Look at the value it's landed them X number of clients. Probably it's being used in the social campaign, et cetera.

00:24:53.77
Seth Macey
Why were you so scared to, ah to, to price higher? And it, it's multiple times, uh, I've found myself overcome with having the gig for a price is better than not having it at all, which is a very difficult hurdle to get over.

00:25:19.32
Seth Macey
And I think what's helped, a couple things have helped is Knowing that if you price something high, there's ah hundred other clients you can go a message.

00:25:32.65
Seth Macey
I'm not trying to be, you know, gross about it and just saying it's a numbers game, but part of it is you, you can always, there's always another boss every 15 minutes, right? So knowing that, okay, if this one not getting too emotionally attached to the one,

00:25:47.61
Seth Macey
you know pitch you're working on, knowing that if it doesn't work out for your fair price, that you can, you can repeat this process somewhere else with somebody else. So that helped just reminding myself of abundance.

00:26:00.79
Seth Macey
And then what I literally did to you yesterday, texting somebody who is not emotionally involved in in this prospect or in this desired outcome of yours and being like, hey, what did say to you?

00:26:13.84
Seth Macey
I said, hey, here's the d here's the details.

00:26:15.71
Aaron
Yeah.

00:26:15.87
Seth Macey
Here's how many hours I've sunk into this. Here's how many hours it'll probably take. Here's what they'll be used for. and I said, based on last week's episode, not looking for the blueprints here, just looking for the first number that comes to your head.

00:26:31.99
Seth Macey
Cause I want to see if it's in line with mine. And of course I didn't tell you. And then you said your number and I was happened to be way low. And then I thought about your number and I said, yeah, that makes more sense.

00:26:43.25
Seth Macey
And I ended up quoting a lot higher because i was able to, based on our conversation, kind of remove myself from, as a stakeholder in it and just see it for what it was. And it was the exact advice I would give somebody else if it weren't me who was emotionally attached to the situation.

00:27:02.49
Seth Macey
So I guess sub point to this is learning that if you can find a way to detach your emotions when you're trying to get business, that's ah a good idea because then you won't um potentially weigh under charge simply because you just want the job.

00:27:23.53
Aaron
Yeah, that's a good one and a hard one. It really is.

00:27:28.70
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:27:30.20
Aaron
ah think your, mean, your text to me was great in terms of spelling out all the points I wanted to see, time, ah effort, what it'd be used for, ah e cetera.

00:27:42.76
Aaron
And it was very quick for me to be like, I think it would be in this range, ah giving all that. There was no real hemming and hawing because, Again, it was just a ah kind of a black and white time thing for me and and what the assets would be used for.

00:27:58.00
Aaron
And here's where we are. In terms of personal experience with that, I think we're different in ah in a certain way, which helps me.

00:28:08.72
Aaron
I mean, you're...

00:28:09.79
Seth Macey
I already know what you're going to say. You're like, if it doesn't work out for you, you still have your full-time job. You're like, got whatever.

00:28:15.88
Aaron
So I have full-time...

00:28:15.94
Seth Macey
This is gravy for me.

00:28:17.57
Aaron
have a full

00:28:17.79
Seth Macey
I get my steak and potatoes without gravy or I get them with gravy.

00:28:18.47
Aaron
im Yeah. So my full time job allows two things. One, a full time job and second, limited time. So the trade off is if you say no oh my God, I get an hour or two hours or four hours or five hours to myself or to do something else, which I don't have a ton of.

00:28:41.08
Aaron
and you can't trade time. If you say yes, I'm getting paid for it, you know, and that, that helps in my bargaining chips.

00:28:47.49
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:28:51.21
Aaron
I feel a little differently. I feel more on your side of the fence during the summer when I'm not working full time.

00:28:57.14
Seth Macey
a

00:28:57.16
Aaron
And I would love to have, more gigs, but I don't have, and I don't get paid technically throughout the summer. It's a 10 month contract in the school. ah So that has a little bit more urgency and I have the time now also.

00:29:14.20
Aaron
So sure, I'll price low or I'll come down or whatever it may be to make this happen.

00:29:14.21
Seth Macey
Right.

00:29:19.82
Aaron
So I can, I can relate to both sides.

00:29:22.86
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:29:23.38
Aaron
I think it is that balancing of like, Sometimes a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush to counter your part of like, okay, you know, their budget's lower than I want, but it's still a budget. It's still going to pay half my rent for the month or whatever it may be.

00:29:39.28
Aaron
And sometimes you have to say x y and Z or minute, uh, diminish the deliverables or change the value, uh, change the licensing, whatever it may be to like, make the project work where you both feel good about it, at least mostly.

00:29:49.88
Seth Macey
yeah

00:29:53.87
Seth Macey
Yeah. It's tough because, you know, let's say hypothetical numbers, you quote $4,000 and they're like, oh, we only have two. Now you're in a spot where you go, am I going to say no to two where it's either zero or two?

00:30:05.63
Aaron
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

00:30:06.85
Seth Macey
And this is what happens. So then you say, yes, I'll do it for 2000. And then you you you reflect on the amount of work you've done and how well the project was executed, hopefully.

00:30:18.48
Seth Macey
And you see how much business is they I mean, I guess you don't get to to directly see, but you can make assumptions. And you go, that's unfair. That's unfair. Like, my value is way more than what I charge. And then you get mad at yourself.

00:30:37.16
Aaron
Yeah.

00:30:37.56
Seth Macey
So I guess the question is, is being that upset with yourself worth the $2,000 in this scenario? Or is it worth not being frustrated with yourself and having no income from it?

00:30:49.62
Seth Macey
So...

00:30:50.32
Aaron
Yeah. And I think a good question to ask yourself is like, again, separating it. Hey, let's call it one day's work. I don't know you know what the projects are necessarily, but let's call it one day's work for $2,000.

00:31:04.45
Aaron
At the end of the day, I spent one of one of my days doing this work for two grand and they used it and were very successful. cool And in trying to be like, okay, like I was happy at the time.

00:31:21.96
Aaron
Maybe I'm getting a little greedy because they did really well. Would I, would I want to give money back if they failed? If I happen to know they, they got nothing in return for that $2,000, would I feel bad and be like, here's a thousand back. I'll just take the money for my time.

00:31:36.30
Aaron
Cause you didn't get anything from it versus, oh, they made 20,000 from that 2000. I feel like I deserve more. So yeah,

00:31:44.48
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:31:44.60
Aaron
Kind of kind of separating from their results has made things easier. i think for me to say like, where am I happy with what's going on here?

00:31:57.21
Aaron
You know,

00:31:57.96
Seth Macey
Yeah. A concept I've been toying with too is, you know I've been thinking about a way to put this into contracts where it's okay. Here's what it costs to do what I've outlined.

00:32:09.40
Seth Macey
If you use these for any ad campaigns, you know, we can track, you can track the the web traffic, right? Say an Instagram ad of your photo leads to a website, leads to a call, leads to a booking or a sale.

00:32:28.33
Seth Macey
I've been debating putting in the contract a royalty on that process.

00:32:35.61
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah.

00:32:36.04
Seth Macey
As a way to haven't i haven't done this yet, but it's something I've been considering of how to structure in a deal. Because then if you're if the assets you provided bomb, at least you got paid for your time.

00:32:51.67
Seth Macey
If they do really well and you undercharged by mistake, at least you're covered. I mean, 2% of $100,000 in sales is great.

00:33:01.54
Aaron
yeah

00:33:01.64
Seth Macey
Especially if you charged like 500 bucks.

00:33:04.58
Aaron
yeah

00:33:04.66
Seth Macey
And perhaps it's a leveraging tool, you know, perhaps it's a, you know, I'm not suggesting everybody runs out and undercharges and puts royalties into their contracts because a, they may not even use the stuff for targeted ads.

00:33:20.63
Seth Macey
And, uh, I guess there is no B, but it's a way to, I think that's just a way to say that, I'm confident these things I'm going to deliver for you are going to kick ass because I'm willing to do this for less, not a low amount, but like less than some professionals may charge you.

00:33:42.12
Seth Macey
And when you go and run ads on these, if we can track the the funnel,

00:33:47.76
Seth Macey
I get paid well if if my assets are good, essentially, barring other variables such as how well you execute your campaign.

00:33:51.95
Aaron
Yeah.

00:33:56.38
Seth Macey
But I mean, it's that classic ah it's that classic example of when you you know you pitch an idea. Hey, if this goes well, I'll give you all the credit. And if it doesn't, I'll take all the blame.

00:34:08.14
Seth Macey
Have you heard that one before?

00:34:09.06
Aaron
Yeah.

00:34:09.10
Seth Macey
It's a great way to make things happen for yourself.

00:34:11.69
Aaron
Yeah.

00:34:11.71
Seth Macey
If you're confident, well, you have all the glory if this does well.

00:34:13.04
Aaron
yeah

00:34:15.20
Seth Macey
And if it fails, it's entirely my fault. How many people will say no to that if it's a low risk idea, even a high risk idea?

00:34:20.53
Aaron
yeah

00:34:21.05
Seth Macey
I guess that's the point to be able to you know get yourself in the door with with confidence without needing to say much.

00:34:28.59
Aaron
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's a bad idea. i think it's something worth investigating and seeing your,

00:34:35.12
Seth Macey
and I'm sure people do this. I'm sure Capullo does this, but.

00:34:38.38
Aaron
yeah. Uh, or renegotiates if it's, you know, third use parties like added, you know, not, not dictated it in the original contract.

00:34:49.04
Seth Macey
Yeah. I think what you said, too, about having another source of income, too, is helpful in alleviating some of the stress and creating a more abundance mindset.

00:34:49.91
Aaron
Uh,

00:34:58.02
Seth Macey
Like I've been doing part-time on work part-time online work remotely just as like a little stop my income booster.

00:35:01.69
Aaron
Yeah.

00:35:05.83
Seth Macey
And I will say I felt a little bit more at ease when writing that email. It's always my least favorite part of the process is here's the dollar amount.

00:35:16.75
Aaron
yeah

00:35:17.63
Seth Macey
And I think it it does ease a little bit of tension. um

00:35:21.96
Aaron
for sure. It's, it's not, it's not fun and it's not fun to get the emails back. They're like, Whoa, i mean, I've gotten this so-and-so does it for this much. And, you know, putting comparison and the tricks that the business will do.

00:35:36.02
Seth Macey
Yeah, right.

00:35:36.56
Aaron
Here's, here's what I think in my mind, the business wants the cheapest price. They want the highest return on investment. You want a fair price. So you guys are going to be fighting, uh,

00:35:46.62
Seth Macey
Yeah, of course. It's part of, yeah, it's natural.

00:35:48.83
Aaron
And if they're like, yeah, let's do that for that much. You probably were too low.

00:35:52.67
Seth Macey
Yes. Like shit.

00:35:54.79
Aaron
Yeah. Especially, I mean, man when you're like, oh, should it be 10 or should it be a, I'll just go with eight. And they're like, yep. And you're like, wow, I could have at least tried 10 and then gone down to eight.

00:36:06.26
Seth Macey
That's what I'm talking. This is what I'm talking about.

00:36:08.26
Aaron
Yeah. So it's like, i maybe, maybe I'm wrong in this too, but I always believe that there's a conversation to be had. Like, Hey,

00:36:18.39
Seth Macey
Yeah, assume a conversation is going to take place rather than just getting a yes. Yeah.

00:36:22.07
Aaron
yeah. Or getting a no or getting a ghost or whatever. Like i assume they're like, Hey, well, we wanted you, but that's a little bit much.

00:36:25.08
Seth Macey
yeah

00:36:28.80
Aaron
And okay. Well, but let's be honest. What budget do you have? I promised X, y and Z. I'll just do X. How about that? We can cut Z. It's not a huge need for you.

00:36:41.01
Aaron
That was just extra. I was there. i had the capability to do it. And I tend to, ah tend to price things based on me being there and all the capabilities that I can do while I'm there.

00:36:51.99
Aaron
I w I want to work while I'm there. I don't want to spend a whole day for 10 photo package and get paid, you know, whatever I I'd rather say like, Hey, let me do 50 photos.

00:36:58.34
Seth Macey
Yeah. Yeah.

00:37:03.68
Aaron
Cause I'm there for eight hours. And while there's break or lunch, I'll do a drone shot of outside. I'll video some, you know, like doing the, all the things that I possibly could do in that time to make that price and value worthwhile.

00:37:14.05
Seth Macey
yeah

00:37:16.80
Seth Macey
And then if they're like, yeah, but we are really only just want photos, then that's why it doesn't make sense to charge per photos. I can't tell you many people will ask, what does it cost per photo? like, it's not that simple. I mean, how far am I driving?

00:37:26.01
Aaron
Yeah.

00:37:27.38
Seth Macey
ah you know, what are we using these for?

00:37:27.73
Aaron
Yeah.

00:37:29.26
Seth Macey
know, it's not a per photo thing.

00:37:30.01
Aaron
Yeah.

00:37:32.39
Seth Macey
There's so many, so many different elements. Bonus tip. I've found that this works. When you're putting your dollar amount in an email, your quote,

00:37:46.05
Seth Macey
Put the dollar amount in green font.

00:37:50.66
Seth Macey
It's like your whole email is black text or it's white if you use dark mode on Mac. Put the put the text in, put the dollar text in green.

00:38:02.11
Aaron
Green means go.

00:38:03.16
Seth Macey
Green means positive.

00:38:05.23
Aaron
Yeah.

00:38:07.06
Seth Macey
So

00:38:08.01
Aaron
Interesting.

00:38:10.31
Seth Macey
next, you.

00:38:11.90
Aaron
Yeah. With that, you mentioned certain things and I think this is an offshoot of what you were just talking about, but

00:38:20.01
Aaron
writing very clear can be simple, but contracts and having them signed and having the responsibility of both parties to sign on the dotted line, what's about to happen and what's going to happen and spelling out things as you learn them.

00:38:32.66
Seth Macey
You seem nice.

00:38:41.65
Aaron
And as you experience things, I, from the beginning, maybe some of that cavalier not caring about the amount or what we're doing spills into a ultimate trust of like, ah we did that. We talked about an email.

00:39:00.79
Seth Macey
you seem nice

00:39:00.89
Aaron
We had a, we have a conversation and they're not to screw me. If they screw me, they're not going to use the photos or I'll have a problem with that. I'll deal with it then. But there's been a few times where things got a little bit messy and I'm glad from not so messy experiences that I learned like, oh, contracts are important.

00:39:18.30
Seth Macey
Thank you.

00:39:24.73
Aaron
And just having the I think it shows you as a business, as a serious person, like these are my intentions.

00:39:35.31
Aaron
This is what we've discussed. It's all written here. We're both clear about it, correct? And they have to sign it off. Leaves little argument, less argument. There can be issues still. There can be disagreements, but if it is spelled out really well, it does, i feel like help the trust process of, Hey, they're invested.

00:39:59.57
Aaron
They agreed to my payment schedule. We're on schedule. If they don't pay me, i have this contract. It's not as just simple as that, of course, but it does help to feel like, okay, they've read what the expectations are.

00:40:13.27
Aaron
They've signed it. Here we go.

00:40:16.97
Seth Macey
Right.

00:40:17.16
Aaron
Yeah.

00:40:17.17
Seth Macey
They know what they're getting into before I even begin.

00:40:19.94
Aaron
Yeah. And losing some of that, like, we'll casually figure it out. I trust you for it.

00:40:25.24
Seth Macey
Yep.

00:40:25.82
Aaron
Now I can develop that with clients ah

00:40:29.91
Seth Macey
After the fact, though.

00:40:31.05
Aaron
after the fact. And Telefunken, who I've worked with, is the best experience I've had with people and communication and payment and creativity and project and freedom.

00:40:44.60
Aaron
It's been awesome. We had contracts in the beginning. Now it's more of... email conversations back and forth. And if something's wrong, like I try to fix it. And if they do something wrong, we'd have a conversation and we try to fix it for next time.

00:40:59.72
Seth Macey
Yeah, and I'm sure you'd still make a contract, though, if they signed you up for a big campaign.

00:41:04.35
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. I think I would. I think more to just truly understand for me, even not a trust thing, but like, this is what we're agreeing on. Right. Like we're, this is what we're doing.

00:41:15.58
Seth Macey
That's what it is half the time.

00:41:16.37
Aaron
Yeah.

00:41:16.98
Seth Macey
Whoa, thought you meant this, not this.

00:41:17.06
Aaron
Yeah. yeah Yeah. So.

00:41:20.35
Seth Macey
I thought I had to pay you at the end of the project, not in intervals.

00:41:24.54
Aaron
Right.

00:41:26.81
Aaron
Right.

00:41:26.86
Seth Macey
Right?

00:41:27.31
Aaron
Oh.

00:41:27.32
Seth Macey
Well, how do I know you're going to pay me it all at the end? Well, we don't have all the money right now. And then you bicker. It's like details like that.

00:41:32.26
Aaron
of her Yeah.

00:41:34.17
Seth Macey
I agree 100%.

00:41:35.92
Aaron
Yeah. So that's something I've skipped in a few times. I wish I had not. Uh,

00:41:41.28
Seth Macey
Good practice to do with low dollar amounts as well.

00:41:44.62
Aaron
yeah, I think it's, I think it's great all the time and it doesn't have to be like 10 doc, 10 page document with like legal jargon, but even just a one page PDF of expectations from you and then expectations from them and how you want the stuff being used and what you agreed on and just everything kind of the main bullet points listed out where they have to take it to the boss or sign it themselves and send it back is your first taste of how responsible and responsive they will be to this project.

00:42:03.17
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:42:23.22
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:42:25.72
Aaron
Do they get it back to you within a day ready to go?

00:42:25.80
Seth Macey
yeah

00:42:28.54
Aaron
or do you have to ask four times for the contract to be signed back? Pretty good data point.

00:42:33.92
Seth Macey
Right.

00:42:35.55
Aaron
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:36.71
Seth Macey
Yeah. I like to do ah two different documents. I like to do the statement of work, which is here's what I'm going to do. Here's how I'm going to deliver it.

00:42:47.39
Seth Macey
Here's what you're going to pay me. And then I like to do a separate licensing agreement that just says, here's how you can use these. And it's two documents. So one's a statement of work.

00:42:55.35
Aaron
yeah

00:42:56.88
Seth Macey
The other is how you can use these. Statement of work says what each of us are exchanging and the licensing is how you are allowed to use them just to be crystal clear. That's my method.

00:43:07.10
Seth Macey
I don't know if that's the best way, but I just find it gets kind of choppy if it's all in one page and it, maybe it's annoying.

00:43:07.55
Aaron
Yeah.

00:43:15.67
Seth Macey
I'm having to have you sign two things, but if you're serious about it, then, you know, it's an extra 30 seconds of work.

00:43:24.16
Aaron
Yeah.

00:43:24.74
Seth Macey
So,

00:43:26.03
Aaron
So that's my number two.

00:43:27.66
Seth Macey
Interesting. Interesting. Speaking about getting screwed over, I get to tell a story I haven't told in a while, I think. About when my photo was stolen for a book cover.

00:43:41.46
Aaron
Yeah, it's exciting.

00:43:42.55
Seth Macey
You know this one. I actually posted ah a full length post on our Reddit, on our subreddit, Photographer Mindset. You should go check that out if you're a Redditor listening.

00:43:51.97
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:43:55.34
Seth Macey
It's a good way for you to post ah some scenarios and have people in that subreddit answer or myself and Aaron. and So go check that out. We'll put a link to it in the episode description.

00:44:06.83
Seth Macey
But I posted it there and I'm getting ahead of myself because it's it's my tip for, or my thing that I did that, uh, I learned from, or I wish I had that thing that I got wrong was, i don't know how many people are still using this platform.

00:44:19.82
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:44:24.25
Seth Macey
Hopefully I don't get a defamation lawsuit here, but don't use Unsplash.

00:44:31.72
Seth Macey
Don't use websites where you can create a profile, submit your photos, in exchange for being promised tons of exposure and give up your licensing of your images.

00:44:49.35
Seth Macey
That's insane. i used to, in the very beginning stages, post on Unsplash all the time because you're naive and you don't know any better. They dupe you.

00:45:00.60
Seth Macey
You get millions of views. They throw out these kind of like bogus awards, like, oh photo of the year.

00:45:09.14
Seth Macey
And you're essentially just giving the rights to your images to be used in the most insane commercial ways. One of them being like for book covers.

00:45:24.37
Aaron
Yeah. Anything, right? Like, yeah.

00:45:26.00
Seth Macey
Anything really, which is just, I can't believe that it's predatory. I'm sorry. It is. I don't know.

00:45:33.27
Aaron
Yeah.

00:45:34.71
Seth Macey
If there's people listening who use this platform or a platform like it, who have it's contributed to your career, please write me. Please. ah At some point, you're going to get ripped off like I did. And this is my fault before I tell the story.

00:45:52.79
Seth Macey
It has a good ending. This is my fault and a huge lesson for me. And fortunately i was, you know, with help of legal aid, I was able to Dipsy doodle through this and have an okay outcome from myself. So, um, maybe this is 2018, 2019.

00:46:11.71
Seth Macey
and was emailed by, ah the assistant of an author, a very well-known author in a foreign country. And they provided a link to an image that was on my Instagram page, right in the email, they said,

00:46:28.41
Seth Macey
we'd like to use this image for a cover of our cover of a book. Uh, how much would it cost to be able to use this? What are your terms? Right. And if you're already familiar with the story, forgive me, but maybe there's some new people listening who would like to hear it.

00:46:44.20
Seth Macey
So i being completely inexperienced in this, I think at the time said like, oh yeah, like 750 bucks

00:46:57.31
Seth Macey
and a credit on the inside of the book. Right. Hindsight. It should have been thousands, right?

00:47:03.99
Aaron
yeah

00:47:04.06
Seth Macey
This is a very well-known author, somebody going on talk shows in their country. very big author. So first of all, I was flattered, which was, you know, I couldn't believe that that was happening.

00:47:15.84
Seth Macey
And I fell into the trap of what we talked about my previous point where i didn't want to be too high. 750 for a book cover, extremely low for that kind of author. Uh, so, ah they said this price is too high. we weren't expecting that, which looking back at a now, I'm like laughing.

00:47:35.13
Seth Macey
And then, uh,

00:47:38.23
Seth Macey
I think I convinced, i can't remember, it's been so long. Maybe I convinced them somehow to go with the price. And they said, okay, well, we're going to talk to the publisher and get approval and then we'll get back to you. And then months went by, months went by, months went by, and I didn't hear anything. I followed up, no response, followed up, no response.

00:47:58.18
Seth Macey
Then one day I he was like, you know what? I'm curious. I had like a 2% inkling that I would see my photo on there on the book cover.

00:48:10.35
Seth Macey
just i was like, there's no way they've used it, but I'm just going to go check. Checked it out. Sure as shit. Right on there.

00:48:18.32
Aaron
Jeez.

00:48:20.02
Seth Macey
And I think that was the last time I've, remember I asked you in a podcast where i was like, when was the last time would that you were irate or 10 and mad?

00:48:28.74
Aaron
Yeah.

00:48:29.41
Seth Macey
It doesn't happen to me often. I think this is the last time this happened was five, six years ago. I put my fist through a wall.

00:48:37.31
Aaron
Wow.

00:48:37.36
Seth Macey
but was oh mad on her, like YouTube on talk shows, promoting the book, talking about it, like a huge deal doing huge promo.

00:48:51.23
Seth Macey
And I had been paid nothing. i was like, what the hell? Okay.

00:48:55.97
Aaron
crazy no

00:48:57.83
Seth Macey
So I kept emailing the, my correspondence, the the assistant, nothing, nothing, nothing. They kept kept ignoring me, kept ignoring me, kept ignoring me. And I was like, you know what?

00:49:10.38
Seth Macey
I ain't going to lie down. ain't going to lie down. they i yeah' I'm assuming their attitude was like, what's little Canuck going to do about it up in, The middle of nowhere in Canada, right?

00:49:23.14
Aaron
right

00:49:25.49
Seth Macey
So i went to every single social media platform. I filed copyright infringement on every single piece of content that had that book in it.

00:49:38.77
Seth Macey
All the YouTube videos, all the Twitter posts, all the Facebook posts, all the Instagram posts.

00:49:44.18
Aaron
Nice.

00:49:45.33
Seth Macey
They all got taken down. YouTube accounts suspended. This is in the middle of a, of, of huge promo for this book. Right. Uh, then I get an email back from the, uh, lawyer at the, of the publishing company.

00:50:04.40
Seth Macey
Uh, I'm not allowed to say give details just because that was in my settlement, but said, Hey, Mr. Seth Macy, you're being sued for $500,000

00:50:15.55
Seth Macey
um

00:50:17.05
Aaron
Oh, stomachache.

00:50:19.34
Seth Macey
for, um, well, actually I had, I had filed a lawsuit. This was a counter lawsuit. Uh, my, my lawyer at the time had advised me to do all the copyright infringement claims that I did. And so they countersued me for $500,000. So I can say that at cocktail parties that I've been countersued for $500,000 before i I read that though. I'll tell you what, I just laughed at the time. I had maybe 5,000 bucks to my name.

00:50:45.25
Aaron
ah Good luck.

00:50:45.42
Seth Macey
Okay, good luck. like what do you What do I have to lose? You're a giant publishing company in the middle of a book tour and I'm nobody.

00:50:50.54
Aaron
Yeah.

00:50:53.25
Seth Macey
Okay?

00:50:53.38
Aaron
Yeah.

00:50:54.00
Seth Macey
So essentially, if you want all your stuff back and you want your YouTube account unsuspended, we're going to have a chat.

00:51:03.36
Aaron
Yeah.

00:51:04.02
Seth Macey
Right?

00:51:05.31
Aaron
I countersue you for a million.

00:51:07.29
Seth Macey
A million bajillion.

00:51:07.55
Aaron
Just go ah back and forth.

00:51:11.01
Seth Macey
So how this ties into Unsplash, right? What ended up happening is in my email correspondence with the the the the author's assistant, they had said, okay we agree to these terms.

00:51:34.96
Seth Macey
That was in writing, which constitutes as like a written contract. We agree to these terms and it was in relation to the link they had provided of the photo from my Instagram. Now, I had that same photo on Unsplash, one of these websites where you can post stuff and people can use it for free in exchange for all that junk exposure I talked about that I was a victim to.

00:52:02.02
Seth Macey
Still my fault, but I fell prey to it. They had realized that they could go there, get the image for free, not have to pay me anything, not even have to credit me, and they could make however much money off the book they wanted. Obviously, the content of the book is what sells, but the cover is the first thing you look at, of course, right?

00:52:26.11
Aaron
Mm-hmm.

00:52:27.69
Seth Macey
So my lawyer found out about this one was like, oh, God, because he didn't know about this. And what ended up happening was we ended up settling because thank God they never put the link to the unsplash image in the email correspondence thread ever.

00:52:46.08
Seth Macey
It was only to the, the image from Instagram. And they had said in the email correspondence, we agree to these terms.

00:52:59.04
Seth Macey
So I was able to countersue for breach of contract rather than copyright infringement.

00:53:06.24
Aaron
Interesting.

00:53:06.61
Seth Macey
But had one of those variables gone the other direction, had they put the link Unsplash or had they just used different verbiage and not said we agree to this, these terms, I would have been out of luck.

00:53:22.64
Aaron
Wow, that is a crazy story.

00:53:23.62
Seth Macey
And I would have had to have sat there and thought about all the money. i did you know I didn't make a ton from the settlement, but I think it proved a point. I was proud that I stood up for myself.

00:53:34.55
Aaron
Yeah.

00:53:34.95
Seth Macey
I got more than what I asked for. And she had to send two copies of the book just as a extra middle finger, both signed. So signed.

00:53:43.54
Aaron
Signed.

00:53:45.03
Seth Macey
It's funny. I think somewhere in it, it says like best wishes. I had to like have it sent to the lab to make sure it didn't have anthrax.

00:53:48.79
Aaron
That's funny.

00:53:51.88
Aaron
Yeah.

00:53:53.66
Seth Macey
I guess the lesson is stand up for yourself.

00:53:56.04
Aaron
Yeah.

00:53:56.95
Seth Macey
You know, i'm not trying to virtue signal, but stand up for yourself. Don't get taken advantage of in this industry. Be very careful about where you're going to share the work and the licensing terms.

00:54:06.60
Seth Macey
And charge more than $750 for a book cover if it's a well-known author, even if they're international.

00:54:14.19
Aaron
Yeah, that's the number one point.

00:54:15.12
Seth Macey
Uh, so that's the most insane thing that's ever happened to me with my photography and to try not to get countersued for $500,000. All the things.

00:54:24.80
Aaron
Yeah, those things are... um it's important to realize and read all the little check boxes and all the apps that you join and all the things, uh, all the things that you were posting your work again for this, this drug of exposure.

00:54:34.78
Seth Macey
all the things

00:54:42.17
Aaron
Right. And then it it sets up for this opportunity for things to go wrong sometimes. Um,

00:54:49.73
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:54:52.14
Aaron
And it's, wow, what a lesson. and And what a lesson to wake up and see your book with the cover on it when nothing was agreed on and have to untangle, like, where did this go wrong and and get to that that conclusion?

00:55:11.28
Aaron
Like,

00:55:11.97
Seth Macey
yeah And I should have asked for more advice.

00:55:12.06
Aaron
ah

00:55:13.65
Seth Macey
I should have leaned on some people. There's some more lessons in this. Why did i not ask somebody? i didn't have the podcast running at the time. i didn't really know a ton of people in this industry.

00:55:23.61
Aaron
yeah

00:55:24.07
Seth Macey
I didn't know what I didn't know. This is why I'm talking about it in this episode, because it was a huge lesson and lots of mistakes made that will never be made again.

00:55:30.61
Aaron
yeah

00:55:32.26
Seth Macey
And I hope that people listening don't make that kind of mistake because you post your work in places like that where the terms are wishy-washy or there's a chance for you to get burned. You're gonna at some point. You're gonna get really screwed over and you're gonna be really upset with yourself or you won't and you're gonna be glad you listened to this if this is where you heard not to do that.

00:55:49.61
Aaron
yeah

00:55:52.48
Aaron
and Another example, and there's two of us here, and this has kind of happened to both of us, is last summer my ah mom showed me ah a well-known, one the biggest Connecticut magazines talking about black bears.

00:56:05.65
Aaron
And my photo was used for the main article and I think the back cover of the magazine. And I was like, what?

00:56:15.03
Seth Macey
And it was fairly licensed.

00:56:17.12
Aaron
Yep. So through a photo app where you can just check a box and say like, hey, do you want to license this photo out there? You'll get paid. ah you people People can purchase your photo in certain ways and use it in certain ways and you might make great money with it I was like, sure. Just checked off a thing ah for some of my photos.

00:56:38.93
Aaron
And I went back to see what happened. You can see the contracts or the sales. And literally that photo was sold for, I think, 78 cents.

00:56:47.86
Seth Macey
It was 92 if I remember correctly.

00:56:49.70
Aaron
92. made a post about it. It was under a dollar. It was licensed for.

00:56:53.63
Seth Macey
A magazine full of advertisers and

00:56:55.95
Aaron
Yeah.

00:56:56.54
Seth Macey
just goes to show like you don't have control over the terms of the licensing, even if it says, hey, you can make money licensing your photos.

00:56:56.84
Aaron
And a.

00:57:03.10
Seth Macey
And like, I know we promote a lot of ah platforms like 500px where there's licensing. ah You know, we had the view bug people on. ah You can, you know, use those apps if you like the interface of them.

00:57:17.15
Aaron
Just, just know what's up.

00:57:17.39
Seth Macey
Nobody's forcing you to license stuff. Right.

00:57:19.58
Aaron
Yeah.

00:57:19.62
Seth Macey
so just be careful.

00:57:21.43
Aaron
Yeah. So that that was just surprising. And I was like, well, I probably would have gotten more than 92 cents if I had a conversation with someone or they saw the photo and wanted it.

00:57:32.58
Aaron
On the other hand, my photo is in a magazine. So that's kind of a cool little check mark and I'm not sure it would have happened otherwise, but Nonetheless, it was one of those moments of like, oh, what's that?

00:57:42.79
Seth Macey
you message magazine, make something out of it? Did you message the editor of the magazine? Maybe not not fight about it, but just maybe make an opportunity for yourself. Like, hey, nice that you licensed this. I didn't know. like ah you guys must have used whatever platform it was on.

00:57:56.00
Seth Macey
Maybe there's an opportunity to work directly together in the future.

00:57:56.63
Aaron
Yeah, I did not.

00:57:59.64
Seth Macey
When

00:58:00.45
Aaron
I did not. Maybe I should have, but it was it was a learning experience.

00:58:03.76
Seth Macey
you're angry and you're mad, it's tough that.

00:58:05.36
Aaron
and yeah it was, it was a learning experience where I went on the app and uncheck those things, you know? So it was, uh, it's one of those moments where it's like, I, I've had a few where it's like, it was almost like a joke. Like your photo was licensed for 48 cents and you don't know where it's going to or what it's used, but you're like, okay, I'm making bank. This is funny.

00:58:25.69
Aaron
Uh,

00:58:25.86
Seth Macey
You just need 400,000 years interest to be like, to make a year's salary.

00:58:28.71
Aaron
yeah.

00:58:32.12
Aaron
When it's, uh, when it then,

00:58:33.90
Seth Macey
Probably less than that. Interest is crazy, but.

00:58:36.35
Aaron
When it then hits you, ah like right in front of your face on a real magazine, you're like, wait a minute, how do we get to here? And ah it's those little checks that you don't really think about.

00:58:42.73
Seth Macey
Yeah.

00:58:45.72
Aaron
Like, oh, yeah, people can license if they want. Not a big deal. But then in like in actuality, you're like, oh, hey, I'm proud of that photo.

00:58:52.92
Seth Macey
yeah

00:58:54.52
Aaron
And it was used in a way. And that's I think that's the thing. That's the point. Just so know what you're doing.

00:58:59.97
Seth Macey
Yeah. And if you don't know what you're doing, i think take a minute to have a pause. I think I was just swept up in the excitement of how cool, you know, my story wasn't Oh, this is, and I just, i needed to take a knee, like take a second, right?

00:59:09.24
Aaron
Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

00:59:14.96
Seth Macey
Take a second, ask somebody for some guidance.

00:59:19.04
Aaron
yeah

00:59:19.15
Seth Macey
Um,

00:59:21.32
Seth Macey
and and not rush through things and not be so arrogant that you think you you can just figure it out. I don't remember feeling overwhelmingly confident, but obviously I thought that I had the capability to navigate that situation when I did it.

00:59:35.37
Aaron
yeah

00:59:35.38
Seth Macey
And I could have prevented myself a lot of

00:59:40.68
Seth Macey
stress i mean i almost wish that just the photo was never used on the cover and just nothing ever happened from it because it was so stressful i mean i'm laughing at it now five hundred thousand dollars but it's not fun to get that even though at the same time i knew like okay i i'm poor as hell like what are you uh

00:59:51.06
Aaron
Oh, I bet.

00:59:55.72
Aaron
No, no, no. Yeah,

01:00:02.80
Aaron
yeah good luck, but still.

01:00:05.40
Seth Macey
but I did write about it in the subreddit. If people are interested in checking that out and I'd love for people to contribute to that if they have some stories or questions, cause it's an easy place for us to answer things. So that's in the episode description.

01:00:14.99
Aaron
Yeah.

01:00:18.41
Seth Macey
That's our episode for today, man. Part one.

01:00:20.00
Aaron
Cool. Easy peasy.

01:00:22.76
Seth Macey
All right. Till next time.

01:00:23.88
Aaron
Don't make mistakes or do and learn from.

01:00:25.55
Seth Macey
and Don't make any mistakes. Be a perfect human. Nope.

01:00:28.19
Aaron
Yeah. Don't, don't screw up like us.

01:00:30.68
Seth Macey
Make them what you're going to and You know, debrief.

01:00:35.03
Aaron
Yeah.

01:00:35.75
Seth Macey
All right.

01:00:36.62
Aaron
See ya.

01:00:37.14
Seth Macey
See ya.